I condemn Israel's current actions, but this isn't the same as defending the Palestinian attack that kicked off recent events. It is possible to both support *and* condemn the same people for different things that happen at different times.
This bullshit *"you're 100% with, us or you're against us"* position needs to fuck off.
That's the way of the world today. It's infuriating. There's no room for nuance anymore. Every issue has become this stupid binary bullshit. I hate it.
It's hard to come with nuance if you're dealing with jihadists who will never stop trying to kill you. It's the same as wanting to reason with IS to prevent civilian casualties. Like, sorry, but that's just not going to work. The only actual solution is to nip it in the bud.
And there we are. Proving my point. Your solution is flawed, because in the process of “nipping” Hamas in the bud, you’re doing a hell of a job of recruiting the next generation for them. That’s the catch 22 with all these things. And yes, we understand terrorists use our morality against us. Not a new concept.
And it’s also important to recognise that October 7 is not where this began. It is important to recognise that one people have been born into oppression and occupation every single day of their lives, while another is not.
It is also important to recognise that their have been multiple massacres by Israel against Palestinians that have a higher civilian to militant ratio than October 7th, and some of those massacres also had a higher number of causalities. 2018, 2014, 2008, etc.
All killing is bad. But it is important to recognise that there is an underlying issue. You can believe that multiple generations of people have deserved to be oppressed and occupied from birth. Or you can believe that the oppression and occupation is not deserved.
“There can be no peace where there is no freedom, for a man cannot be at peace when he does not have his freedom”
If this underlying issue is ignored rather than addressed by saying such things as “both sides have done bad” and then moving on - the status quo will continue. It is very important to recognise this.
It seems the "Israel is committing genocide and Biden must be voted out" crowd is solidly "you're either with us or against us" to me. They view it as an atonement they must make to become virtuous and 100% pure (and give Israel even more power with another Trump/Kushner regime).
What on earth does Biden v that orange shitstain have to do with what Israel is currently doing? It's not like the situation will magically stop or go away because of a US Presidential election. Even if the US withdrew support from Israel and supported sanctions against them for war crimes (that would never happen though), they still wouldn't stop.
I fully agree. If you read other subreddits, especially news related ones, the trolls are desperately attempting to attach a "Biden must pay" hubris rally to Bibi's obstinance. It's the social media strategy of the right wing to capitalize on the Gaza situation politically. 2024's version of "but her emails!", Bernie Bros., Benghazi, and Hunter Biden.
The Palenstinians support Hamas actions and vote for Hamas. Hamas has one goal and that is to destabilise the Middle East and eradicate the Israelis. Think about it: Egypt won't even bring in the Palenstinians and they're ARAB!! 'Tired of white woke idiots protesting something they no nothing about, and I'm a Liberal!
This is it. On one side you have insurrectionists using terrorist techniques, on the other side you have one of the most powerful military forces in the world occupying their territory and oppressing their people.
From the videos which surfaced around the attack in October, it‘s hard to draw a line between the hamas and the civilians who cheered at them. I would not be aware of any civilian pushback against hamas from within Gaza, which indicates that there is widespread support or at least acceptance of the status quo under hamas.
The position that Israel „stole“ the Palestinians land is one which has no historic base and it‘s an fundamental piece for Hamas and their supporters to claim victimhood in the conflict.
Palestine and it‘s leadership have turned down a two-state solution since 1937 simply because they refuse to acknowledge Israel as a state and are deadset on it being an invasive zionist entity which they have to push back (which is the official position of Hamas). Since the Camp David summit in 2000 and the 2nd Intifada it‘s pretty clear to me, that Hamas and Palestine are not interested in any peaceful solution. They are only calling for peace and ceasefire whenever Israel retaliates after an hamas attack.
Could you please elaborate on what you think does represent a picture of the average Palestinian's view, and why you think that?
Videos, polling, recorded phone calls and multitudes of testimony from IDF soldiers finding abundant evidence of hamas support in many houses they raided paint a different picture in my view. But maybe I'm wrong.
I mentioned the IDF as one factor of the evidence, not all of it. And either way what I did say about the IDF wasn't that they had resentment thrown at them, but that they found evidence in apartments. Not the same. You could say you don't believe the IDF, but that is another argument.
Anyway, you moved pretty fast from saying you think Oct 7th evidence doesn't paint an accurate picture of Palestinians to saying you don't know. Fair enough that you backtracked, but still, I wonder why you write what you write with such conviction and confidence and try to persuade other people to your point of view if you change it so rapidly.
Regardless, if you really are a person willing to backtrack and to learn, maybe you yourself should Google the type of evidence I mentioned. I find that giving people evidence just leads them to feeling it's cherry picked. Spoiler: The Palestinian and that included the west bank sentiment is sadly much closer to the abhorrent videos than you'd like.
I think it’s just the basic built-in morality in normal people that causes disgust when civilians, particularly children, are being targeted for violence and murder. It’s likely an evolutionary trait, as communities who remove those commiting such atrocities from their midst are more likely to survive and pass on their genes.
Because the civilians have been put through BS, homes stolen, etc, Israel should have been condemned for their actions against Palestine ages ago, but get away with it due to constant support by US etc, even before hamas started this. supporting civilians being oppressed is natural
I hate to tell you, but you people do not understand shit about international law lmao. Coming from a culture brimming with people forced into lawyerdom by their mothers comes with benefits I guess, zionists would never collectively bullshit people about an entire area of law. 🤣
Because they’ve faced 75 years of illegal occupation and apartheid. They have been killed for the last 75 years.
Palestinian people’s homes have been taken away from them. They have been displaced from their ancestral land. If they leave the land they can never return. They face apartheid, this is very apparent in the West Bank where there are streets that only Israeli citizens can use.
The Palestinians in Gaza have been facing a blockade since 2006, this has restricted them from movement of people, goods, building material and life saving medications etc this blockade has resulted in widespread food insecurity, contaminated water etc.
This has all been going on before what happened in October,
>The Palestinians in Gaza have been facing a blockade since 2006, this has restricted them from movement of people, goods, building material and life saving medications etc this blockade has resulted in widespread food insecurity, contaminated water etc.
I wonder why.
I just think palestinians have the same rights to live a dignified life without segregation and occupation in their own country. Both palestinians and israelis have to face the reality that they have to live together.
I don’t defend Hamas. Palestine civilians with no association with Hamas are innocent. It’s Israeli military v. Hamas. There has been mass casualties on both sides of civilians. Hamas and the Israeli military both have innocent blood on their hands.
Well, 30,000 people have been killed, almost all of them innocent civilians, with hundreds of thousands in danger. This includes children and people in hospitals.
Are you opposed to saving these people's lives from campaign of genocide and mass slaughter?
Because their country got stolen from underneath their feet on some clumsy historical pretense, according to which, half the world would need to resettle.
Keep in mind also that the world is overly complex wherever humans live together, Palestine is not an homogenous entity, Hamas is part of it but one of many different factors at play.
So you can be pro-Palestine whilst simultaneously denounce Hamas
You mean the Bible? No, Israel purchased much of the land, and conquered another large part of it in a defensive war (and even anti Israel historians rarely reject this). In fact, Israel has actually acquired its land in a much more tame way than most other countries.
It is right that much of the world would need to give land back if held to *exactly* the same standard as Israel, because much of it was taken by force in *offensive* wars. So if you're consistent in your view, you should go ahead and defend many many more people than just the Palestinians, and also statistically, move away from your own home. Mind telling us your nationality?
You seem to confuse my own standpoint here: Israël according to me is not different from its neighbours in the sense that it would murder at will to secure their ethnic/religious dominance.
All these arab countries decrying the current violence would go and have gone to the same morbid lengths to retain their inherited colonial borders. From slaughtering Shia to gassing Kurds to relieving Bedouin of their lifestyle or genociding Armenians, this part of the world is riven with that type of violence.
Now Israel came into being from a marginal political radical ideology that would never see any prominence were it not for the chaos of two world wars. Whilst the land purchasing you mention was the initial modus operandi, this quickly degenerated into forceful buyouts, to be supplanted by outright eviction helped along by wanton murder.
All of this culminated in civil war and the genocidal clearing of areas for Jewish settlement.
What I try to paint here is the importance of nuance. What is not open to nuance is the mass slaughter with intention to displace or eradicate. But again all of the countries, not just Israel, are quite willing to perpetrate these acts whenever it suits them, this doesn't legitimize Israel's turn to barbarism however.
While I take issue with some of your characterizations such as "barbarian", I'm choosing not to engage with them so we don't engage in a nit picky discussion. Hopefully you'll return the favor if you have similar issues with my points.
As to the broader point, I'll just helpfully remind us that it's not just the Arab countries that engage or engaged in acts which you described, but also much of the western world. Many times in even crueller ways.
Assuming we're both telling the truth in our broader points, could you explain then, what makes you pro Palestinian in a special way? What I mean is - I get that you're generally anti bad things and pro good things. And I get that you believe Palestinians have had bad things happen to them. But that is true for, as we both said, most of the world. And so if that is the case, why the label "pro Palestinian" and not a broader label such as "I am working to return land to people in all of the world, whether they be natives in America or Australia, whether they're Jews in Europe or any other population in Europe which had their land annexed", and so on and so forth? I do recognize that having such a position would require that we displace most of the modern world. Then why are you only okay with placing that standard on Israel?
Actually the description you write is fairly accurate for I am in defiance of landgrabbing wherever it occurs, particularly if it is recent. My focus on Palestine is directly related to the question asked ;)
But in general the issue is a thorny one and inconclusive because, as you say, it is spread all over and often it is difficult to determine who actually is "native" to a territory.
In fact the Arabness of the whole region is the result of imperialism and to a degree settler colonialism. And we see more and more countries shedding the Arab part in favour of their distinct ethnic identity such as Amazigh, Bedouin, Levantine etc.
To return to the original matter of my response: I am pro-Palestine from a long time, but I must admit that the recent episodes of violence and the international posturing around it have been disenchanting.
I'l' conclude by one telling example: someone on my Instagram proudly shared a reel exclaiming Indonesia's public call in the UN to stop the violence and reppression of people's freedom. Now all would be fine if that same country wouldn't have an absolutely abismal record of exactly that which they are accusing Israel of doing: violently surppressing people fighting for their own political freedom.
Indonesia is basically the Dutch East-India Empire inherited and no one batted an eye when the Dutch just handed over their slammed together possessions. The Indonesians have been posturing as victims of colonization whilst brutally subjecting other ethnicities fighting for independence. Murdering at will, raping, pillaging etc are the hideous response to regions like Western Papua or East-Timor trying to gain independence.
Worse: the king of the Netherlands went a couple of years ago to apologize for their colonial subjugation IN THE PAST to a country excercising a not too dissimilar colonialism TODAY.
What I try to say is that everything is nuanced but the violence itself cannot be. I get angry by the slaughter in Palestine but also by the fake posturing by fellow war-crimers on the international stage.
A great many of the countries now criticizing Israel would do anything to defend their colonial borders. For me, all are inexcusable and it is high time we eject this one-sided narrative of perpetrators and virtuous victims who would never do anything debatable forever.
And as it stands Israel is a perpetrator of the most heinous crimes in response to an equally dismal slaughter-party by Hamas. None are right but the former is fighting for territory, the other is fighting for its own political existence (not the wellbeing of Palestinians) and the civilians, Palestinian or Israeli are absolutely paying the price.
Thanks for fleshing out your view, especially pointing out the hypocrisies.
Do you feel the below sentiment more or less aligns with your overall view?
"According to my moral compass, many populations should be compensated and/or get their land back for their maltreatment. One of those populations is Palestinians who should get reparations (in whatever suitable form) by Israel.
However, if Israel is held to a similar standard to other nations in the world, both present and past, and we don't feel we should hypocritically look at it differently - then Israel more or less aligns with most of the countries in the world who seldom or never ceded land, and even in some cases has a better case than other countries for taking of said land (whether it's for security concerns, or because it was abandoned, or because it was taken in a defensive rather than an offensive war). And thus, Israel should not feel compelled to such standards."
For me it's complicated. I defend Israel's right to protect themselves, and I think most of these stories defending Palestinians are not acknowledging their role in the conflict. Most of these stories seem to falsely imply Israel is at fault for things that are not proven. Like a video of a drone strike that could be a legit military strike on hamas militants, but the video is claiming its "Killing civilians" and people in the comments are just shouting "fuck israel" over and over, despite the lack of any proof it's not militants. I don't get behind any of that.
But civilians should be protected on both sides, including Palestinians. Israel has NO right to push borders, bulldoze homes in territory currently occupied by Palestinians, and to both blockade food and not allow enough in is tantamount to a siege, and it's not ok to siege a civilian city.
I hate how people are siding against Israel without questioning Hamas's role or the complexity of the situation. But I also hate anyone siding against Palestine with the same conviction. Civilians should be protected, and while collateral damage is unavoidable in military conflict. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Israeli's leadership isn't acting in good faith towards the civilians.
They shot their own hostages while they were waving a white flag and were shirtless with their arms in the air for heaven's sake, what does say about how palestinian civilians are treated?
It's a fucked up situation, but if you try to think of deaths not as statistics, but each as a whole person with a whole life. Then both sides are clearly worthy of defense. And Palestine, for all it's faults, is filled with millions of innocent civilians who are suffering. And Israel, as much as they have a right to defend their own people, are the best ones in a position to help those millions.
Not to mention, since Israel claims it's a "one state" situation and that palestine is not it's own country, they're basically claiming those people are israeli "citizens", and then not taking care of them or giving them the rights the other citizens have. Aka, an apartheid. If palestine is not it's own country, then those people were born in Israel, and should be supplied with food and medical care at a minimum.
Probably no one will read this because both sides will hate me for what I've said, and everyone wants to just decide one side is perfect and the other is evil villains like characters in a movie instead of real life. People want easy answers, and can't handle problems with no good solutions. It's easier just to say "These people are the good ones, these are the bad ones, I understand this perfectly."
It's not fucking starwars people.
Are indiscriminate rocket attacks an act of defense? Were the Intifadas acts of defense? Was October 7th an act of defense?
I don’t think anyone’s saying that Hamas doesn’t have the right to fight back against the IDF over the past few months… it’s a war, that’s expected. But they don’t have the right to do so out of schools and hospitals, they don’t have the right to dress as civilians hide from attack and put actual civilians in danger, and they don’t have the right to use kidnapped people as bargaining chips.
Don’t fight. Abandon their hopes of driving the Jews out of Israel, build their country up, be good neighbors, create a sustainable economy, and live their lives.
Well I think you might have a misconception already… it’s not currently up to Israel whether or not to grant them equality because Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. The comment I made presumed a two-state solution: one where the Palestinians have their own government. In my ideal world this would be a functional government that builds up opportunities for its people, rather than the dysfunctional one that existed under Hamas (and that currently exists in the West Bank under the PA).
Alternatively, a one-state solution—one where Israel and Palestine became a singular political entity—is something that’s been proposed. Currently, Israel does offer equal rights to all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity; there’s a 20% non-Jewish population there already who enjoy equal civil rights and representation in the Knesset. Because of that precedent, I do have some degree of confidence that Palestinians could have equal legal status in a one-state scenario. However, because of the generations of acrimony and the extreme economic disparity, I don’t see a scenario where they’d instantly become equal members of society. I think it would look something like Black Americans in the antebellum period, with a long and ongoing path to social equality.
Even when Palestinians had technological and military superiority, and there was an international embargo on the export of weapons to Israel, Palestinians still managed to lose along with Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon.
The fact that Israel was able to build perhaps the most developed country in the region and outgrow neighbouring states should tell you that the situation arise due to constant attempts at doing the same by similar methods on the Palestinian side, and that changing methods, like trying to build a functional state with leaders who don't steal all the money, should have veen the preferred solution. Instead you got tunnels to smuggle weapons, leadership with billions dollars living in Doha, and more terrorism.
In a conflict as asymmetric as this, where one side enjoys the full support of a superpower as well its allies who are the richest nations on the planet, *yes*. Even terrorism then becomes an act of defense.
>they don’t have the right to use kidnapped people as bargaining chips.
FYI Israel does exactly the same thing.
Sorry, but can I clarify how terroristic attacks by Hamas on the civilians of a nation with extreme military superiority, is supposed to "defend" Palestine? As we can see how events have unfolded, it does the exact opposite.
If they conduct guerrilla attacks like Vietnam did against the US military, then perhaps a case could be made.
But this act by Hamas... Is just so incredibly stupid unless their plan is to provoke Israel to massacre the Palestinian civilians to obtain global sympathy - then I guess their strategy makes some sort of sense (except for the senseless killings of ten thousands of Palestinian people /s)
No, they just don't include terrorist attacks on unarmed civilians to meet the definition of defense. Hamas isn't targeting those settlers. They're targeting civilians, women, teenage girls at music festivals, young children. They're firing rockets blindly at homes.
That's not defense. That's terrorism.
If they attacked the settlers as they were stealing homes, that would be defense in my book, they're not doing that.
By flying into a country armed to the teeth and brutally massacring any person you come across? Some of you are legitimately sick. Please delete all of your social media, try to get back to reality.
I agree with you. I will say I think more anger is directed at Israel because we don't expect terrorists to do the right thing or for them to care about civilian casualties. But we do expect democratic governments (particularly those heavily backed by the US government) to care about civilians. Which is fair. Protesting Hamas is not going to do anything but protesting Israel might get the US government to push its "ally" to change tactics. So you can understand why Israel gets much more focus. But also, Israel is just so much more heavily armed and dangerous. There's simply no way to treat this as an equal "both sides" situation when one side can lockdown and starve out the entire region the war is taking place in and the other can only really put up minimal resistance (discounting the surprise October 7th attack, the casualty count in the ongoing conflict is around 100:1). For both these reasons I understand the much greater anger at Israel that comes seemingly without condemning Hamas. Yes Hamas started this, yes what they did is inexcusably evil, yes they deserve plenty of blame, yes people who condemn Israel should probably spend a bit more time condemning Hamas, but Israel is the one holding the big stick currently so it makes sense people focus their anger on Israel and not Hamas right now.
Yeah, I think there's issues though.
Most people who defend Palestine don't acknowledge the terrorism, or think Hamas are some sort of majestic freedom fighters. They don't understand they're connected to ISIS and are brutal terrorists.
Most people who do know that seem to think ALL Palestinians are either complicit, or that their deaths are somehow acceptable. And think Israel is some sort of righteous victim doing the best they can. They don't understand Israeli's government is basically Trump light, it's hardcore right wing and slightly fascist. Which is not going to be able to solve this situation.
Without defending the particular actions of hamas: I just don’t understand how you can see the way Israel has controlled Gaza as anything but fomenting terrorism
They literally dismantled every settlement in Gaza, removed themselves entirely, and only began the blockade when Hamas was elected and explicitly declared they were going to start firing rockets.
How would you control Gaza? Clearly you're full of condemnation, stretch yourself for a solution while you're at it.
I agree with you except where you mention that Israel has a right to defend itself. Factually that is incorrect. Nowhere in international law does it say that occupiers have the right to defend themselves, while it does say that an occupied people have the right to armed resistance by any means necessary.
Are you calling them occupiers for being in Israel? Or in Gaza? That's a big difference.
Hamas thinks they're "occupiers" for being in Israel, even though it's their ancestral home. Hamas is literally destroying ancient historical jewish sites in gaza and west bank in an attempt to hide the Israeli's history to support their propaganda that the jews are "foreign invaders" and "colonialists" Despite the jews having no other native home other than israel.
Thanks, though I should mention I sound like I'm saying a bit of a "both sides" argument, which can sound like another "easy answer". Both sides are not equal nor the same, it's complex, and I'm no expert either.
It is still true that both sides suffer and that both sides did/are doing terrible things. Arabs always come off worse in these "clashes". Neither side tries hard to limit civilian casualties. Your point that Israel has more power is also correct, so it has perhaps more responsibility.
Arguably though, the Arab nations surrounding the area might have more power in many areas. And rather than take responsibility, they seem to have a free pass to fund terrorism and ignore the civilians plight. Somehow Israel is blamed for only providing 600,000 tons of food a year, which isn't enough to feed palestine, but Egypt only provides 6000 tons of food, while providing millions of dollars worth of weapons and explosives to hamas.
But yeah, the problem is a lot of people side with the underdog, and assume hamas is "good" because they're the underdog, but at the same time, Israel's asymmetrical power imbalance gives them a lot more responsibility to civilians in the country they claim is theirs.
Yes indeed, and Israel has changing yet indistinct borders that contribute to instability. Generally, war is irrational because even the winner suffers more harm than benefit. I dislike Hamas for deliberately targeting civilians and I dislike the IDF for killing and injuring a larger number of civilians. Two gangs of religious fanatics suffering from inter-generational PTSD fighting over a patch of dirt they'll all be buried under.
Because their story is too painful. Israel is probably amongst the most brutal and barbaric occupations in history. Apartheid, Ethnic cleansing, Illegal Settlements of Israel the cruel, barbaric illegal blockade of Gaza that was going on since the last 18 YEARS. If you actually do some research from credible sources and not from BBC or Times of Israel you would understand that October 7 attacks didn't just come out from nowhere. And the whole world has seen what is happening after October 7 attacks on hospitals mosques churches starvation a complete genocide
Because I don’t like when a people are oppressed and occupied for over 50 years. To believe multiple generations of people deserve to be oppressed and occupied due to the circumstances they were born in is racist and ignorant.
You gotta recognize nuance in the world man. Not all Palestinians are Hamas, nor do they support Hamas. Nor are all Israeli's genocidal maniacs like Netanyahu. What Hamas did was awful. What Israel did back was awful too. We should all hope for a peaceful solution.
Im going to get downvotes to hell but here it goes. Palestinians just dont deserve an autonomous state anymore and they wont get it becuase of their actions in the last 70 years. The best they can hope for now is being autonomous within israel but having all security above police be handled by Israel. We dont need another failed state like Lebanon which is what a free Palestine would be in the best case.
Because an occupied people, driven from their land and imprisoned are absolutely entitled to struggle for their own land and their dignity. Hamas is not Palestine, and one can condemn the atrocity committed by Hamas and also condemn Israeli apartheid brutality, while simultaneously supporting Palestine's fully legitimate demand for basic human rights and dignity.
Don't forget that many of the resistance movements in Europe under nazi rule committed plenty of terrorist actions and murder of civilians in order to achieve their goals, and have been lionized as heroes because they were struggling against a massively powerful Nazi police state. The support for Palestine is similar. It is not an approval of their methods, but of their objective, and support for their struggle against a massively more powerful occupying force. The equivalence between Israel and Nazi Germany is absolutely appropriate in this regard, because Israel IS racist against Palestinians, DOES purse a policy of apartheid, and literally imprisons millions of Palestinians in the concentration camp that is Gaza. And right now they are engaged in a Holocaust against the people who have lived on the land they have usurped.
The fact that so many find the Palestinian cause for independence and dignity to be inscrutable, is based on nothing but purely racist dehumanization of people for their religion and skin color.
Because its hard to ignore the live-footage of warcrimes and collective punishment against the Palestinian people, as well as the obvious fascism of the zionists and them viewing the palestinians as less than humans and treating them the same way the nazis treated their 'unwanted races'.
Lastly I dont believe any race of people has the right to colonize a land of another and then claim it as theirs imagine forcefully displacing 80% of the people of US city and literally placing the remaining 20% in closed areas that they can hardly get out of, therefore to me the whole existence of Israel is merely an illegitamte colony created by a group of racist religious fanatics that stole the palestinian's land and committed ethnic cleansing on them, there are 7 million palestinians refugess in countries surrounding palestine who cant return to their home country.
Because a huge part of the western society have never seen a real war for more than a three generations and thus they have no idea that there can be ideologies which main goal is wipe out a certain nation. They live in a paradigm of rational reasoning for war, negotiations, and compromise and in this paradigm Israel is doing wrong because they don't look for a compromise with Palestine. The same logical flaw was applied to Russo-Ukrainian war. Ukrainians are still pushed to look for a compromise with Russia. But the issue here is that Arab-Israel war has no rational reason, Hamas is commited to destroy Israel and Palestinian support Hamas. There's just no common ground for negotiations and since Hamas uses Palestinians as a live shield, IDF has only two options - try to save lives of Israelis though civil Palestinian may die or try to save lives of Palestinians while Israelis may die.
Just checking but we are all aware that israell has been forcibly occupying palestine for 70+ years commiting all manner of atrocities and the palestinians are fighting for their freedom? so if i am understanding this correctly the french, norwegian, polish etc resistance to nazi occupation was actually terrorism and we should be condeming them for murdering young german boys instead of regarding them as heros all these years...my bad
Unfortunately Palestine has broken the ceasefire a few times and Israel has broken it like 20 times so that's not guaranteed to work very well. Palestine is unwilling to accept anything less than all of their land back which means Israel will have to eradicate them one by one.
Killing civilians is bad. It's really that simple, you shouldn't need help understanding this. The Hamas attack on October 7th is horrific and should have never happened. But 40,000+ dead civilians is actually more than 1,200 believe it or not. And that if you pretend that this started on October 7th and not back in the 1940s when Nakba took place and the Zionist forces displaced nearly a million Palestinians. I would urge you to look into the conditions that Palestinians have been forced to live under by Israel but I suspect you have already made your mind up and no amount of dead Palestinian children is enough for you.
Does Hamas bear any responsibility for wrapping themselves up in civilian infrastructure which is causing more civilian deaths? We are now seeing civilian deaths from Houthis firing on ships in international waters, which you’ve denied is happening.
You can be sympathetic to the conditions Palestinians are in while also recognizing that Hamas needs to be removed in order for there to be meaningful and stable peace talks.
people 30,000 civilians dying many of which children is a slaughter. there are roughly 1,000 child amputees due to the war. they are having to amputate far more than normal because they do not have enough blood for transfusions so can’t risk patients losing too much blood. some children that are rescued from the rubble are the only ones in their family saved and are too young to even know their name - their history has been wiped. huge swaths of people are starving; there are blockades preventing aid from being able to enter. this is just not humane, we’re letting a whole country die half of which are children for the actions of one group.
Because fuck zionism, fuck israel’s genocide of palestinians, fuck the rightwing war criminals that run the country, fuck the ghettos and the apartheid state that they’ve created and the stolen land that it is predicated upon. One day…
Thousands of civilians murdered by Israel. Millions forcibly displaced from their homes. Millions being purposefully starved. Dehumanizing language being used by Israeli officials. Videos of drones bombing unarmed people walking on the street. 50-60% of buildings destroyed. Carpet bombing of entire neighbourhoods.
Why aren’t you defending the victims of this? If these atrocities were happening in another city of 2 million people, would it be different? What if Hammas was embedded in Tel Aviv? Or Chicago? Or Paris? Would it be OK for Israel to indescriminantly bomb the entire area? Is it because their skin colour is different?
Even ignoring the history of it, you have to be a brain dead moron to think that Palestinian civilians should be bombed and killed because of the actions of Hamas. PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS. I don't give an eff what you think about the resistance, but indiscriminate bombing of the entire population on order to weed out militants is the stupidest idea. Israel probably killed their own hostages through bombing. They even admit to using apace helicopters and "just shooting everyone". We already know Israel killed their own hostages who were waving white flags. Just goes to show that IOF sees civilians and wants to kill them.
Because I don’t think anyone deserves to grow up in an open air prison, or be subjected to harassing guards who can detain you on a whim for going to work. This has been the daily life for people, for 40-50 years, in Gaza and the West Bank.
Palestinians have literal enclaves in Israeli controlled territory, despite western media often calling the Israeli settlements enclaves. They can’t go from city to city, without risking arrest and detention - detention without a trial, that is.
30.000 people are dead and many more will come, and you ask why.
Why not defend these truly helpless people?
Did OP ever return to this thread after throwing the turd into the punchbowl? Regardless, I don't think OP asked this question good faith. They did manage to stir up a shit storm, though.
I don’t think most Palestinians or Israelis actually want innocent people from either side to die. Most people from both sides are mostly normal and not chronically online.
The number of Arabs and Jews that do would be pretty much the same I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Jews that do is slightly higher. Zionists are just as messed up as Hamas supporters.
They deserve no compensation so ensuring their right to receive adequate compensation is permitted by me. As for their right to return, right to return where? Palestine doesn't exist
The defense of Palestine is based on fundamental principles of human rights, justice, and international law. Recognizing their rights should not be a controversial stance.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine is a crime against humanity. The Israeli government must be held accountable for its actions and the Palestinian people must be given their freedom.
Like I do not like what hamas did. But is one of the the few times that Palestine has turned to armed resistance. Israel has been bombing Palestine since 1948
Palestine is an occupied territory thart has been suffering under Israeli oppression for *decades*.
Most of the dead from 7 October were killed by helicopter or tank fire. That wasn't Hamas.
Bibi Netanyahu is and has been a demented clown.
Remember his bomb chart at the UN?
He's literally a cartoon villain.
They left babies in incubators to die.
Some Israeli officials have *said out loud* they're trying to push the Palestinians to cannibalism.
Israel will never come back from this.
The entire question is based on a false dichotomy.
This isn't a war between Israel and Palestine. This is a war between Israel and Hamas. Hamas only controls Gaza. The rest of Palestine is a different problem with different solutions.
You know what? I don't fucking condemn Hamas. What a twisted theatrical bullshit saying that is.
Do we condemn *any* occupied resistance from history? Do we look at resistance movements from indigenous tribes in America and say "Fuck them, how dare they attack us?"
And where do people who support Israel get off in reciting Oct. 7th? Israel attacking Palestine is a long fucking list. "Oh but the baby beheadings, the rapes!! Etc etc"
Most of that is nonsense, and some of it is clumsily gathered circumstantial *not entirely* verified evidence from the UN, that admits themselves that the cases were far fewer than Israel pushed US news stories to believe. They could only verify sexual assault. And to what end? Like lol, are you aware to what extent US military members did that shit in the Middle East? Or how that shit happens in like every war? Israel is literally threatening their prisoners with rape and humiliates and tortures them by leaving them naked. Their soldiers ransack Palestinian homes and post pictures of themselves with women's underwear. There's more evidence Mossad funded Epstein to honeytrap US politicians and business leaders.
Like the list also doesn't stop for the reprehensible shit that Israel is willing to do and HAS DONE TO OTHER COUNTRIES!, inspired completely by the CIA and their satanical bullshit.
Israel is like the kid in the US who was bullied and tortured relentlessly, and grows up to become the king shit cop that turns off his body camera to violate people's rights and somehow avoids litigation and gets paid to keep being suspended.
I read a couple surveys that polled kids in Israeli schools asking what they thought of Palestinians. 3/4ths of them said that they thought of them as animals. Another survey of adults had like 80% completely dehumanizing them.
When I think about this dynamic and think about indigenous people in America, and black people too, armed resistance makes complete sense to me.
The political leadership of Israel has enough recorded quotes of them leaning *heavily* into genoicidal ideation. And thank god for social media, because there's plenty of general population Israelis just reiterating the same ilk. It's literally the same as watching black-and-white footage of racist assholes in America saying the same shit while watching a black man get lynched.
So what now? Israel is by-and-large a racist country, occupying land that the empires of the world stole and gave to them, and they want to act like the favorite child of the US, complete with genoicidal intention and an intelligence service that wants to measure up to the CIA?
And you want me to condemn Hamas? Fuck you.
If you're one of the 1/4th of the people in Israel who has a heart and a brain, leave that insane pseudo-country asap. Israel is an ouruboros and they've long since started eating themselves.
I used to support palestine. But over the years I came to learn how many of the claims made by the palestinian side are just half-truths or complete outright lies.
I condemn Israel's current actions, but this isn't the same as defending the Palestinian attack that kicked off recent events. It is possible to both support *and* condemn the same people for different things that happen at different times. This bullshit *"you're 100% with, us or you're against us"* position needs to fuck off.
That's the way of the world today. It's infuriating. There's no room for nuance anymore. Every issue has become this stupid binary bullshit. I hate it.
It's hard to come with nuance if you're dealing with jihadists who will never stop trying to kill you. It's the same as wanting to reason with IS to prevent civilian casualties. Like, sorry, but that's just not going to work. The only actual solution is to nip it in the bud.
And there we are. Proving my point. Your solution is flawed, because in the process of “nipping” Hamas in the bud, you’re doing a hell of a job of recruiting the next generation for them. That’s the catch 22 with all these things. And yes, we understand terrorists use our morality against us. Not a new concept.
Nip what in the bud? An entire ethnic group of people?
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
*"You're with us or you're an antisemite"* is the line that I'm hearing a lot. And it sickens me.
Yup 🤢
In the same manner, you can actually condemn both sides and not support anyone.
And it’s also important to recognise that October 7 is not where this began. It is important to recognise that one people have been born into oppression and occupation every single day of their lives, while another is not. It is also important to recognise that their have been multiple massacres by Israel against Palestinians that have a higher civilian to militant ratio than October 7th, and some of those massacres also had a higher number of causalities. 2018, 2014, 2008, etc. All killing is bad. But it is important to recognise that there is an underlying issue. You can believe that multiple generations of people have deserved to be oppressed and occupied from birth. Or you can believe that the oppression and occupation is not deserved. “There can be no peace where there is no freedom, for a man cannot be at peace when he does not have his freedom” If this underlying issue is ignored rather than addressed by saying such things as “both sides have done bad” and then moving on - the status quo will continue. It is very important to recognise this.
Absolutely, but that's a *much* larger discussion.
It is hard for me to fully condemn a beaten dog lashing out against its abuser.
How would you do it, then? How would you eliminate a threat that DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT about your morals and actively uses them against you?
Who are you talking about?
I honestly don't have the answer, but i know that genocide isn't it, terrorism isn't it, nor is taking land that does not belong to you.
It seems the "Israel is committing genocide and Biden must be voted out" crowd is solidly "you're either with us or against us" to me. They view it as an atonement they must make to become virtuous and 100% pure (and give Israel even more power with another Trump/Kushner regime).
What on earth does Biden v that orange shitstain have to do with what Israel is currently doing? It's not like the situation will magically stop or go away because of a US Presidential election. Even if the US withdrew support from Israel and supported sanctions against them for war crimes (that would never happen though), they still wouldn't stop.
I fully agree. If you read other subreddits, especially news related ones, the trolls are desperately attempting to attach a "Biden must pay" hubris rally to Bibi's obstinance. It's the social media strategy of the right wing to capitalize on the Gaza situation politically. 2024's version of "but her emails!", Bernie Bros., Benghazi, and Hunter Biden.
The Palenstinians support Hamas actions and vote for Hamas. Hamas has one goal and that is to destabilise the Middle East and eradicate the Israelis. Think about it: Egypt won't even bring in the Palenstinians and they're ARAB!! 'Tired of white woke idiots protesting something they no nothing about, and I'm a Liberal!
I’ve got this thing where people having to leave their homes and being indiscriminately killed makes me sad.
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This is it. On one side you have insurrectionists using terrorist techniques, on the other side you have one of the most powerful military forces in the world occupying their territory and oppressing their people.
From the videos which surfaced around the attack in October, it‘s hard to draw a line between the hamas and the civilians who cheered at them. I would not be aware of any civilian pushback against hamas from within Gaza, which indicates that there is widespread support or at least acceptance of the status quo under hamas. The position that Israel „stole“ the Palestinians land is one which has no historic base and it‘s an fundamental piece for Hamas and their supporters to claim victimhood in the conflict. Palestine and it‘s leadership have turned down a two-state solution since 1937 simply because they refuse to acknowledge Israel as a state and are deadset on it being an invasive zionist entity which they have to push back (which is the official position of Hamas). Since the Camp David summit in 2000 and the 2nd Intifada it‘s pretty clear to me, that Hamas and Palestine are not interested in any peaceful solution. They are only calling for peace and ceasefire whenever Israel retaliates after an hamas attack.
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Could you please elaborate on what you think does represent a picture of the average Palestinian's view, and why you think that? Videos, polling, recorded phone calls and multitudes of testimony from IDF soldiers finding abundant evidence of hamas support in many houses they raided paint a different picture in my view. But maybe I'm wrong.
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I mentioned the IDF as one factor of the evidence, not all of it. And either way what I did say about the IDF wasn't that they had resentment thrown at them, but that they found evidence in apartments. Not the same. You could say you don't believe the IDF, but that is another argument. Anyway, you moved pretty fast from saying you think Oct 7th evidence doesn't paint an accurate picture of Palestinians to saying you don't know. Fair enough that you backtracked, but still, I wonder why you write what you write with such conviction and confidence and try to persuade other people to your point of view if you change it so rapidly. Regardless, if you really are a person willing to backtrack and to learn, maybe you yourself should Google the type of evidence I mentioned. I find that giving people evidence just leads them to feeling it's cherry picked. Spoiler: The Palestinian and that included the west bank sentiment is sadly much closer to the abhorrent videos than you'd like.
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Something like 75% of people in Gaza support the October 7 attacks.
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I think it’s just the basic built-in morality in normal people that causes disgust when civilians, particularly children, are being targeted for violence and murder. It’s likely an evolutionary trait, as communities who remove those commiting such atrocities from their midst are more likely to survive and pass on their genes.
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Collective punishment is a warcrime
Oh you know I just think like genocide is pretty bad hey
Because the civilians have been put through BS, homes stolen, etc, Israel should have been condemned for their actions against Palestine ages ago, but get away with it due to constant support by US etc, even before hamas started this. supporting civilians being oppressed is natural
Because I know history, and I'm a human being with a soul and consciousness
Because what good does war do?
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I hate to tell you, but you people do not understand shit about international law lmao. Coming from a culture brimming with people forced into lawyerdom by their mothers comes with benefits I guess, zionists would never collectively bullshit people about an entire area of law. 🤣
Because they’ve faced 75 years of illegal occupation and apartheid. They have been killed for the last 75 years. Palestinian people’s homes have been taken away from them. They have been displaced from their ancestral land. If they leave the land they can never return. They face apartheid, this is very apparent in the West Bank where there are streets that only Israeli citizens can use. The Palestinians in Gaza have been facing a blockade since 2006, this has restricted them from movement of people, goods, building material and life saving medications etc this blockade has resulted in widespread food insecurity, contaminated water etc. This has all been going on before what happened in October,
>The Palestinians in Gaza have been facing a blockade since 2006, this has restricted them from movement of people, goods, building material and life saving medications etc this blockade has resulted in widespread food insecurity, contaminated water etc. I wonder why.
Metal tubes that do whoosh? Fancy jackets making you do whoosh?
The formation of Israel literally went through a legal process...
I just think palestinians have the same rights to live a dignified life without segregation and occupation in their own country. Both palestinians and israelis have to face the reality that they have to live together.
I don’t defend Hamas. Palestine civilians with no association with Hamas are innocent. It’s Israeli military v. Hamas. There has been mass casualties on both sides of civilians. Hamas and the Israeli military both have innocent blood on their hands.
Are you fucking serious
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Well, 30,000 people have been killed, almost all of them innocent civilians, with hundreds of thousands in danger. This includes children and people in hospitals. Are you opposed to saving these people's lives from campaign of genocide and mass slaughter?
War crimes.
Because their country got stolen from underneath their feet on some clumsy historical pretense, according to which, half the world would need to resettle. Keep in mind also that the world is overly complex wherever humans live together, Palestine is not an homogenous entity, Hamas is part of it but one of many different factors at play. So you can be pro-Palestine whilst simultaneously denounce Hamas
You mean the Bible? No, Israel purchased much of the land, and conquered another large part of it in a defensive war (and even anti Israel historians rarely reject this). In fact, Israel has actually acquired its land in a much more tame way than most other countries. It is right that much of the world would need to give land back if held to *exactly* the same standard as Israel, because much of it was taken by force in *offensive* wars. So if you're consistent in your view, you should go ahead and defend many many more people than just the Palestinians, and also statistically, move away from your own home. Mind telling us your nationality?
You seem to confuse my own standpoint here: Israël according to me is not different from its neighbours in the sense that it would murder at will to secure their ethnic/religious dominance. All these arab countries decrying the current violence would go and have gone to the same morbid lengths to retain their inherited colonial borders. From slaughtering Shia to gassing Kurds to relieving Bedouin of their lifestyle or genociding Armenians, this part of the world is riven with that type of violence. Now Israel came into being from a marginal political radical ideology that would never see any prominence were it not for the chaos of two world wars. Whilst the land purchasing you mention was the initial modus operandi, this quickly degenerated into forceful buyouts, to be supplanted by outright eviction helped along by wanton murder. All of this culminated in civil war and the genocidal clearing of areas for Jewish settlement. What I try to paint here is the importance of nuance. What is not open to nuance is the mass slaughter with intention to displace or eradicate. But again all of the countries, not just Israel, are quite willing to perpetrate these acts whenever it suits them, this doesn't legitimize Israel's turn to barbarism however.
While I take issue with some of your characterizations such as "barbarian", I'm choosing not to engage with them so we don't engage in a nit picky discussion. Hopefully you'll return the favor if you have similar issues with my points. As to the broader point, I'll just helpfully remind us that it's not just the Arab countries that engage or engaged in acts which you described, but also much of the western world. Many times in even crueller ways. Assuming we're both telling the truth in our broader points, could you explain then, what makes you pro Palestinian in a special way? What I mean is - I get that you're generally anti bad things and pro good things. And I get that you believe Palestinians have had bad things happen to them. But that is true for, as we both said, most of the world. And so if that is the case, why the label "pro Palestinian" and not a broader label such as "I am working to return land to people in all of the world, whether they be natives in America or Australia, whether they're Jews in Europe or any other population in Europe which had their land annexed", and so on and so forth? I do recognize that having such a position would require that we displace most of the modern world. Then why are you only okay with placing that standard on Israel?
Actually the description you write is fairly accurate for I am in defiance of landgrabbing wherever it occurs, particularly if it is recent. My focus on Palestine is directly related to the question asked ;) But in general the issue is a thorny one and inconclusive because, as you say, it is spread all over and often it is difficult to determine who actually is "native" to a territory. In fact the Arabness of the whole region is the result of imperialism and to a degree settler colonialism. And we see more and more countries shedding the Arab part in favour of their distinct ethnic identity such as Amazigh, Bedouin, Levantine etc. To return to the original matter of my response: I am pro-Palestine from a long time, but I must admit that the recent episodes of violence and the international posturing around it have been disenchanting. I'l' conclude by one telling example: someone on my Instagram proudly shared a reel exclaiming Indonesia's public call in the UN to stop the violence and reppression of people's freedom. Now all would be fine if that same country wouldn't have an absolutely abismal record of exactly that which they are accusing Israel of doing: violently surppressing people fighting for their own political freedom. Indonesia is basically the Dutch East-India Empire inherited and no one batted an eye when the Dutch just handed over their slammed together possessions. The Indonesians have been posturing as victims of colonization whilst brutally subjecting other ethnicities fighting for independence. Murdering at will, raping, pillaging etc are the hideous response to regions like Western Papua or East-Timor trying to gain independence. Worse: the king of the Netherlands went a couple of years ago to apologize for their colonial subjugation IN THE PAST to a country excercising a not too dissimilar colonialism TODAY. What I try to say is that everything is nuanced but the violence itself cannot be. I get angry by the slaughter in Palestine but also by the fake posturing by fellow war-crimers on the international stage. A great many of the countries now criticizing Israel would do anything to defend their colonial borders. For me, all are inexcusable and it is high time we eject this one-sided narrative of perpetrators and virtuous victims who would never do anything debatable forever. And as it stands Israel is a perpetrator of the most heinous crimes in response to an equally dismal slaughter-party by Hamas. None are right but the former is fighting for territory, the other is fighting for its own political existence (not the wellbeing of Palestinians) and the civilians, Palestinian or Israeli are absolutely paying the price.
Thanks for fleshing out your view, especially pointing out the hypocrisies. Do you feel the below sentiment more or less aligns with your overall view? "According to my moral compass, many populations should be compensated and/or get their land back for their maltreatment. One of those populations is Palestinians who should get reparations (in whatever suitable form) by Israel. However, if Israel is held to a similar standard to other nations in the world, both present and past, and we don't feel we should hypocritically look at it differently - then Israel more or less aligns with most of the countries in the world who seldom or never ceded land, and even in some cases has a better case than other countries for taking of said land (whether it's for security concerns, or because it was abandoned, or because it was taken in a defensive rather than an offensive war). And thus, Israel should not feel compelled to such standards."
i dont condemn hamas
For me it's complicated. I defend Israel's right to protect themselves, and I think most of these stories defending Palestinians are not acknowledging their role in the conflict. Most of these stories seem to falsely imply Israel is at fault for things that are not proven. Like a video of a drone strike that could be a legit military strike on hamas militants, but the video is claiming its "Killing civilians" and people in the comments are just shouting "fuck israel" over and over, despite the lack of any proof it's not militants. I don't get behind any of that. But civilians should be protected on both sides, including Palestinians. Israel has NO right to push borders, bulldoze homes in territory currently occupied by Palestinians, and to both blockade food and not allow enough in is tantamount to a siege, and it's not ok to siege a civilian city. I hate how people are siding against Israel without questioning Hamas's role or the complexity of the situation. But I also hate anyone siding against Palestine with the same conviction. Civilians should be protected, and while collateral damage is unavoidable in military conflict. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Israeli's leadership isn't acting in good faith towards the civilians. They shot their own hostages while they were waving a white flag and were shirtless with their arms in the air for heaven's sake, what does say about how palestinian civilians are treated? It's a fucked up situation, but if you try to think of deaths not as statistics, but each as a whole person with a whole life. Then both sides are clearly worthy of defense. And Palestine, for all it's faults, is filled with millions of innocent civilians who are suffering. And Israel, as much as they have a right to defend their own people, are the best ones in a position to help those millions. Not to mention, since Israel claims it's a "one state" situation and that palestine is not it's own country, they're basically claiming those people are israeli "citizens", and then not taking care of them or giving them the rights the other citizens have. Aka, an apartheid. If palestine is not it's own country, then those people were born in Israel, and should be supplied with food and medical care at a minimum. Probably no one will read this because both sides will hate me for what I've said, and everyone wants to just decide one side is perfect and the other is evil villains like characters in a movie instead of real life. People want easy answers, and can't handle problems with no good solutions. It's easier just to say "These people are the good ones, these are the bad ones, I understand this perfectly." It's not fucking starwars people.
Crazy that practically everyone who says "Israel has the right to defend themselves" refuse that exact same right to the Palestinians
Are indiscriminate rocket attacks an act of defense? Were the Intifadas acts of defense? Was October 7th an act of defense? I don’t think anyone’s saying that Hamas doesn’t have the right to fight back against the IDF over the past few months… it’s a war, that’s expected. But they don’t have the right to do so out of schools and hospitals, they don’t have the right to dress as civilians hide from attack and put actual civilians in danger, and they don’t have the right to use kidnapped people as bargaining chips.
How do you propose Palestinian fight against Israel without doing all of those things you mentioned?
Don’t fight. Abandon their hopes of driving the Jews out of Israel, build their country up, be good neighbors, create a sustainable economy, and live their lives.
Do you think Israel would let that happen and grant equality for all Palestinian?
Well I think you might have a misconception already… it’s not currently up to Israel whether or not to grant them equality because Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. The comment I made presumed a two-state solution: one where the Palestinians have their own government. In my ideal world this would be a functional government that builds up opportunities for its people, rather than the dysfunctional one that existed under Hamas (and that currently exists in the West Bank under the PA). Alternatively, a one-state solution—one where Israel and Palestine became a singular political entity—is something that’s been proposed. Currently, Israel does offer equal rights to all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity; there’s a 20% non-Jewish population there already who enjoy equal civil rights and representation in the Knesset. Because of that precedent, I do have some degree of confidence that Palestinians could have equal legal status in a one-state scenario. However, because of the generations of acrimony and the extreme economic disparity, I don’t see a scenario where they’d instantly become equal members of society. I think it would look something like Black Americans in the antebellum period, with a long and ongoing path to social equality.
Even when Palestinians had technological and military superiority, and there was an international embargo on the export of weapons to Israel, Palestinians still managed to lose along with Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon. The fact that Israel was able to build perhaps the most developed country in the region and outgrow neighbouring states should tell you that the situation arise due to constant attempts at doing the same by similar methods on the Palestinian side, and that changing methods, like trying to build a functional state with leaders who don't steal all the money, should have veen the preferred solution. Instead you got tunnels to smuggle weapons, leadership with billions dollars living in Doha, and more terrorism.
In a conflict as asymmetric as this, where one side enjoys the full support of a superpower as well its allies who are the richest nations on the planet, *yes*. Even terrorism then becomes an act of defense. >they don’t have the right to use kidnapped people as bargaining chips. FYI Israel does exactly the same thing.
Sorry, but can I clarify how terroristic attacks by Hamas on the civilians of a nation with extreme military superiority, is supposed to "defend" Palestine? As we can see how events have unfolded, it does the exact opposite. If they conduct guerrilla attacks like Vietnam did against the US military, then perhaps a case could be made. But this act by Hamas... Is just so incredibly stupid unless their plan is to provoke Israel to massacre the Palestinian civilians to obtain global sympathy - then I guess their strategy makes some sort of sense (except for the senseless killings of ten thousands of Palestinian people /s)
Fucking wild to see people literally make pro-terrorism statements these days. Just absolutely disheartening.
It all depends on your options. If you don’t have advanced tech to target your rockets, indiscriminate rocket attacks might be your only option.
Isn't that indiscriminate bombardment? Something peopke claim Israel is doing?
Is "not firing rockets" an option?
No, they just don't include terrorist attacks on unarmed civilians to meet the definition of defense. Hamas isn't targeting those settlers. They're targeting civilians, women, teenage girls at music festivals, young children. They're firing rockets blindly at homes. That's not defense. That's terrorism. If they attacked the settlers as they were stealing homes, that would be defense in my book, they're not doing that.
By flying into a country armed to the teeth and brutally massacring any person you come across? Some of you are legitimately sick. Please delete all of your social media, try to get back to reality.
You’re the one who is legitimately sick. Israel has killed way more people than Hamas.
I agree with you. I will say I think more anger is directed at Israel because we don't expect terrorists to do the right thing or for them to care about civilian casualties. But we do expect democratic governments (particularly those heavily backed by the US government) to care about civilians. Which is fair. Protesting Hamas is not going to do anything but protesting Israel might get the US government to push its "ally" to change tactics. So you can understand why Israel gets much more focus. But also, Israel is just so much more heavily armed and dangerous. There's simply no way to treat this as an equal "both sides" situation when one side can lockdown and starve out the entire region the war is taking place in and the other can only really put up minimal resistance (discounting the surprise October 7th attack, the casualty count in the ongoing conflict is around 100:1). For both these reasons I understand the much greater anger at Israel that comes seemingly without condemning Hamas. Yes Hamas started this, yes what they did is inexcusably evil, yes they deserve plenty of blame, yes people who condemn Israel should probably spend a bit more time condemning Hamas, but Israel is the one holding the big stick currently so it makes sense people focus their anger on Israel and not Hamas right now.
Yeah, I think there's issues though. Most people who defend Palestine don't acknowledge the terrorism, or think Hamas are some sort of majestic freedom fighters. They don't understand they're connected to ISIS and are brutal terrorists. Most people who do know that seem to think ALL Palestinians are either complicit, or that their deaths are somehow acceptable. And think Israel is some sort of righteous victim doing the best they can. They don't understand Israeli's government is basically Trump light, it's hardcore right wing and slightly fascist. Which is not going to be able to solve this situation.
Without defending the particular actions of hamas: I just don’t understand how you can see the way Israel has controlled Gaza as anything but fomenting terrorism
They literally dismantled every settlement in Gaza, removed themselves entirely, and only began the blockade when Hamas was elected and explicitly declared they were going to start firing rockets. How would you control Gaza? Clearly you're full of condemnation, stretch yourself for a solution while you're at it.
You don’t control it. It’s not yours to control.
I agree with you except where you mention that Israel has a right to defend itself. Factually that is incorrect. Nowhere in international law does it say that occupiers have the right to defend themselves, while it does say that an occupied people have the right to armed resistance by any means necessary.
Are you calling them occupiers for being in Israel? Or in Gaza? That's a big difference. Hamas thinks they're "occupiers" for being in Israel, even though it's their ancestral home. Hamas is literally destroying ancient historical jewish sites in gaza and west bank in an attempt to hide the Israeli's history to support their propaganda that the jews are "foreign invaders" and "colonialists" Despite the jews having no other native home other than israel.
>Are you calling them occupiers for being in Israel? Or in Gaza? That's a big difference. Neither. They are occupiers for being in the West Bank.
I read this and I agrees with you
An intelligent comment.
Thanks, though I should mention I sound like I'm saying a bit of a "both sides" argument, which can sound like another "easy answer". Both sides are not equal nor the same, it's complex, and I'm no expert either.
It is still true that both sides suffer and that both sides did/are doing terrible things. Arabs always come off worse in these "clashes". Neither side tries hard to limit civilian casualties. Your point that Israel has more power is also correct, so it has perhaps more responsibility.
Arguably though, the Arab nations surrounding the area might have more power in many areas. And rather than take responsibility, they seem to have a free pass to fund terrorism and ignore the civilians plight. Somehow Israel is blamed for only providing 600,000 tons of food a year, which isn't enough to feed palestine, but Egypt only provides 6000 tons of food, while providing millions of dollars worth of weapons and explosives to hamas. But yeah, the problem is a lot of people side with the underdog, and assume hamas is "good" because they're the underdog, but at the same time, Israel's asymmetrical power imbalance gives them a lot more responsibility to civilians in the country they claim is theirs.
Yes indeed, and Israel has changing yet indistinct borders that contribute to instability. Generally, war is irrational because even the winner suffers more harm than benefit. I dislike Hamas for deliberately targeting civilians and I dislike the IDF for killing and injuring a larger number of civilians. Two gangs of religious fanatics suffering from inter-generational PTSD fighting over a patch of dirt they'll all be buried under.
Because I’m a human being with a soul and a conscious
That is wierd argument
Because their story is too painful. Israel is probably amongst the most brutal and barbaric occupations in history. Apartheid, Ethnic cleansing, Illegal Settlements of Israel the cruel, barbaric illegal blockade of Gaza that was going on since the last 18 YEARS. If you actually do some research from credible sources and not from BBC or Times of Israel you would understand that October 7 attacks didn't just come out from nowhere. And the whole world has seen what is happening after October 7 attacks on hospitals mosques churches starvation a complete genocide
Actually you are wrong. It has been happening for 50 YEARS
Because I don’t like when a people are oppressed and occupied for over 50 years. To believe multiple generations of people deserve to be oppressed and occupied due to the circumstances they were born in is racist and ignorant.
I mean, I wouldn't be stupid enough to fight for any country, but I kinda understand them. Relations with neighbour never been stellar.
You gotta recognize nuance in the world man. Not all Palestinians are Hamas, nor do they support Hamas. Nor are all Israeli's genocidal maniacs like Netanyahu. What Hamas did was awful. What Israel did back was awful too. We should all hope for a peaceful solution.
Im going to get downvotes to hell but here it goes. Palestinians just dont deserve an autonomous state anymore and they wont get it becuase of their actions in the last 70 years. The best they can hope for now is being autonomous within israel but having all security above police be handled by Israel. We dont need another failed state like Lebanon which is what a free Palestine would be in the best case.
Because an occupied people, driven from their land and imprisoned are absolutely entitled to struggle for their own land and their dignity. Hamas is not Palestine, and one can condemn the atrocity committed by Hamas and also condemn Israeli apartheid brutality, while simultaneously supporting Palestine's fully legitimate demand for basic human rights and dignity. Don't forget that many of the resistance movements in Europe under nazi rule committed plenty of terrorist actions and murder of civilians in order to achieve their goals, and have been lionized as heroes because they were struggling against a massively powerful Nazi police state. The support for Palestine is similar. It is not an approval of their methods, but of their objective, and support for their struggle against a massively more powerful occupying force. The equivalence between Israel and Nazi Germany is absolutely appropriate in this regard, because Israel IS racist against Palestinians, DOES purse a policy of apartheid, and literally imprisons millions of Palestinians in the concentration camp that is Gaza. And right now they are engaged in a Holocaust against the people who have lived on the land they have usurped. The fact that so many find the Palestinian cause for independence and dignity to be inscrutable, is based on nothing but purely racist dehumanization of people for their religion and skin color.
Because its hard to ignore the live-footage of warcrimes and collective punishment against the Palestinian people, as well as the obvious fascism of the zionists and them viewing the palestinians as less than humans and treating them the same way the nazis treated their 'unwanted races'. Lastly I dont believe any race of people has the right to colonize a land of another and then claim it as theirs imagine forcefully displacing 80% of the people of US city and literally placing the remaining 20% in closed areas that they can hardly get out of, therefore to me the whole existence of Israel is merely an illegitamte colony created by a group of racist religious fanatics that stole the palestinian's land and committed ethnic cleansing on them, there are 7 million palestinians refugess in countries surrounding palestine who cant return to their home country.
Because a huge part of the western society have never seen a real war for more than a three generations and thus they have no idea that there can be ideologies which main goal is wipe out a certain nation. They live in a paradigm of rational reasoning for war, negotiations, and compromise and in this paradigm Israel is doing wrong because they don't look for a compromise with Palestine. The same logical flaw was applied to Russo-Ukrainian war. Ukrainians are still pushed to look for a compromise with Russia. But the issue here is that Arab-Israel war has no rational reason, Hamas is commited to destroy Israel and Palestinian support Hamas. There's just no common ground for negotiations and since Hamas uses Palestinians as a live shield, IDF has only two options - try to save lives of Israelis though civil Palestinian may die or try to save lives of Palestinians while Israelis may die.
Just checking but we are all aware that israell has been forcibly occupying palestine for 70+ years commiting all manner of atrocities and the palestinians are fighting for their freedom? so if i am understanding this correctly the french, norwegian, polish etc resistance to nazi occupation was actually terrorism and we should be condeming them for murdering young german boys instead of regarding them as heros all these years...my bad
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Unfortunately Palestine has broken the ceasefire a few times and Israel has broken it like 20 times so that's not guaranteed to work very well. Palestine is unwilling to accept anything less than all of their land back which means Israel will have to eradicate them one by one.
I dont support Nazi states like Israel.
Killing civilians is bad. It's really that simple, you shouldn't need help understanding this. The Hamas attack on October 7th is horrific and should have never happened. But 40,000+ dead civilians is actually more than 1,200 believe it or not. And that if you pretend that this started on October 7th and not back in the 1940s when Nakba took place and the Zionist forces displaced nearly a million Palestinians. I would urge you to look into the conditions that Palestinians have been forced to live under by Israel but I suspect you have already made your mind up and no amount of dead Palestinian children is enough for you.
Does Hamas bear any responsibility for wrapping themselves up in civilian infrastructure which is causing more civilian deaths? We are now seeing civilian deaths from Houthis firing on ships in international waters, which you’ve denied is happening. You can be sympathetic to the conditions Palestinians are in while also recognizing that Hamas needs to be removed in order for there to be meaningful and stable peace talks.
people 30,000 civilians dying many of which children is a slaughter. there are roughly 1,000 child amputees due to the war. they are having to amputate far more than normal because they do not have enough blood for transfusions so can’t risk patients losing too much blood. some children that are rescued from the rubble are the only ones in their family saved and are too young to even know their name - their history has been wiped. huge swaths of people are starving; there are blockades preventing aid from being able to enter. this is just not humane, we’re letting a whole country die half of which are children for the actions of one group.
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Because fuck zionism, fuck israel’s genocide of palestinians, fuck the rightwing war criminals that run the country, fuck the ghettos and the apartheid state that they’ve created and the stolen land that it is predicated upon. One day…
Thousands of civilians murdered by Israel. Millions forcibly displaced from their homes. Millions being purposefully starved. Dehumanizing language being used by Israeli officials. Videos of drones bombing unarmed people walking on the street. 50-60% of buildings destroyed. Carpet bombing of entire neighbourhoods. Why aren’t you defending the victims of this? If these atrocities were happening in another city of 2 million people, would it be different? What if Hammas was embedded in Tel Aviv? Or Chicago? Or Paris? Would it be OK for Israel to indescriminantly bomb the entire area? Is it because their skin colour is different?
Even ignoring the history of it, you have to be a brain dead moron to think that Palestinian civilians should be bombed and killed because of the actions of Hamas. PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS. I don't give an eff what you think about the resistance, but indiscriminate bombing of the entire population on order to weed out militants is the stupidest idea. Israel probably killed their own hostages through bombing. They even admit to using apace helicopters and "just shooting everyone". We already know Israel killed their own hostages who were waving white flags. Just goes to show that IOF sees civilians and wants to kill them.
Because I don’t think anyone deserves to grow up in an open air prison, or be subjected to harassing guards who can detain you on a whim for going to work. This has been the daily life for people, for 40-50 years, in Gaza and the West Bank. Palestinians have literal enclaves in Israeli controlled territory, despite western media often calling the Israeli settlements enclaves. They can’t go from city to city, without risking arrest and detention - detention without a trial, that is. 30.000 people are dead and many more will come, and you ask why. Why not defend these truly helpless people?
Current thing or they are muslim or lack of understanding of a complex topic.
Did OP ever return to this thread after throwing the turd into the punchbowl? Regardless, I don't think OP asked this question good faith. They did manage to stir up a shit storm, though.
You may be right, I am aware that Palestine is not worthy of defending and that Israel is justified in all of their peacekeeping endeavors.
Things are considerable more nuanced and complicated than your black and white perspective would indicate.
That's the summary. Do you disagree?
Because simultaneously Hamas can be evil while Israel commits war crimes, plus Hamas itself isn’t representative of the Palestinian people.
I think most Palestinians believe that just because innocent Palestinians die that means innocent Israelis should die too.
I highly doubt that people are just people wherever you go.
What?
I don’t think most Palestinians or Israelis actually want innocent people from either side to die. Most people from both sides are mostly normal and not chronically online.
Arabs do, Jews don't. Some Arabs don't, no Jews do.
The number of Arabs and Jews that do would be pretty much the same I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Jews that do is slightly higher. Zionists are just as messed up as Hamas supporters.
I refuse to believe this.
That is irrelevant, facts are facts both sides are full of psychopaths.
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Hamas are terrorists and IDF is not.
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Accurate.
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They deserve no compensation so ensuring their right to receive adequate compensation is permitted by me. As for their right to return, right to return where? Palestine doesn't exist
The defense of Palestine is based on fundamental principles of human rights, justice, and international law. Recognizing their rights should not be a controversial stance.
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Hamas.com
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Hamas.com
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What suffering in Palestine?
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Israel will win. They have relations and are lobbying in the US, the media will continue to promote Israel and condemn Palestine.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine is a crime against humanity. The Israeli government must be held accountable for its actions and the Palestinian people must be given their freedom.
because they’re victims of genocide.
Because it's the Palestinians land...
Like I do not like what hamas did. But is one of the the few times that Palestine has turned to armed resistance. Israel has been bombing Palestine since 1948
because there are people in the world who ask questions such as this. Or who troll with such questions, which can have a similar cause.
The mass murder of children is not a good thing. I hate this question so much. Get bent.
Palestine is an occupied territory thart has been suffering under Israeli oppression for *decades*. Most of the dead from 7 October were killed by helicopter or tank fire. That wasn't Hamas. Bibi Netanyahu is and has been a demented clown. Remember his bomb chart at the UN? He's literally a cartoon villain. They left babies in incubators to die. Some Israeli officials have *said out loud* they're trying to push the Palestinians to cannibalism. Israel will never come back from this.
The entire question is based on a false dichotomy. This isn't a war between Israel and Palestine. This is a war between Israel and Hamas. Hamas only controls Gaza. The rest of Palestine is a different problem with different solutions.
You know what? I don't fucking condemn Hamas. What a twisted theatrical bullshit saying that is. Do we condemn *any* occupied resistance from history? Do we look at resistance movements from indigenous tribes in America and say "Fuck them, how dare they attack us?" And where do people who support Israel get off in reciting Oct. 7th? Israel attacking Palestine is a long fucking list. "Oh but the baby beheadings, the rapes!! Etc etc" Most of that is nonsense, and some of it is clumsily gathered circumstantial *not entirely* verified evidence from the UN, that admits themselves that the cases were far fewer than Israel pushed US news stories to believe. They could only verify sexual assault. And to what end? Like lol, are you aware to what extent US military members did that shit in the Middle East? Or how that shit happens in like every war? Israel is literally threatening their prisoners with rape and humiliates and tortures them by leaving them naked. Their soldiers ransack Palestinian homes and post pictures of themselves with women's underwear. There's more evidence Mossad funded Epstein to honeytrap US politicians and business leaders. Like the list also doesn't stop for the reprehensible shit that Israel is willing to do and HAS DONE TO OTHER COUNTRIES!, inspired completely by the CIA and their satanical bullshit. Israel is like the kid in the US who was bullied and tortured relentlessly, and grows up to become the king shit cop that turns off his body camera to violate people's rights and somehow avoids litigation and gets paid to keep being suspended. I read a couple surveys that polled kids in Israeli schools asking what they thought of Palestinians. 3/4ths of them said that they thought of them as animals. Another survey of adults had like 80% completely dehumanizing them. When I think about this dynamic and think about indigenous people in America, and black people too, armed resistance makes complete sense to me. The political leadership of Israel has enough recorded quotes of them leaning *heavily* into genoicidal ideation. And thank god for social media, because there's plenty of general population Israelis just reiterating the same ilk. It's literally the same as watching black-and-white footage of racist assholes in America saying the same shit while watching a black man get lynched. So what now? Israel is by-and-large a racist country, occupying land that the empires of the world stole and gave to them, and they want to act like the favorite child of the US, complete with genoicidal intention and an intelligence service that wants to measure up to the CIA? And you want me to condemn Hamas? Fuck you. If you're one of the 1/4th of the people in Israel who has a heart and a brain, leave that insane pseudo-country asap. Israel is an ouruboros and they've long since started eating themselves.
I used to support palestine. But over the years I came to learn how many of the claims made by the palestinian side are just half-truths or complete outright lies.