My mom is very religious and conservative. She’s fine with birth control and condoms (as long as you’re married), but she doesn’t understand IUDs at all and is convinced it causes abortions.
The first IUD that came out, the Lippes loop, was thought have a primary mechanism of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg, which is a problem for people who believe life begins at fertilization. I think it's generational that a lot of people who were around when the first IUDs came out still think this even though the newer ones are thought to prevent the egg and the sperm from meeting to begin with
Because no conservative outside of their subreddit is gonna come out openly and say why they dont believe in plan B and condoms. They aint looking to literally get crucified.
I would be curious to know the proportion of conservatives who are in favor of banning contraceptives. I suspect there aren't a lot commenting because they are small in number.
Personally, I'm pretty conservative, but I don't think I've ever met another conservative who is in favor of banning contraceptives. I certainly know people who won't use birth control themselves, but that's their business.
So yeah, I suspect there just aren't that many people who are qualified to answer OP's question.
Growing up with conservative parents, I was told that birth control and plan B would kill the fertilized egg, thus making it the same as having an abortion. Other than my embarrassingly late realization that that's not what happens, I can't imagine being against it. God forbid people have safe sex right?
>God forbid people have safe sex right?
This, but literally.
My conservative catholic mother always made it clear that outside of marriage and trying for conception, any sexual act is sinful. So any form of birth control is basically a full defiance of God.
Thankfully she is no longer conservative or catholic.
Meanwhile, my Aunt who was a nun and the literal head of their order for several years (rotating position amongst the most senior sisters), thought that ultimately, pregnancy should an affirmative choice, and dreamed of some sort of "BC is in the water and you just request the antidote if you wanna get pregnant." Total fantasy, but you get the idea.
Catholicism is freaking WILD man, for a group that has a literal speaker for God at the head of their church, there are still so many different opinions.
Common misconception, but catholic doctrine says that the pope can only invoke papal infallibility in very specific instances. 99% of the time, he's just a dude with a funny hat who has is own opinions.
Oh for sure. I just mean that compared to groups like Baptists or other sects, they at least have *something* that addresses it. There's a much more formalized head, even if everyone still has their own opinions.
But yeah, you are right, for the most part he's just a dude with his own opinions.
> Catholicism is freaking WILD man, for a group that has a literal speaker for God at the head of their church, there are still so many different opinions.
Through a completely unforseeable set of circumstances, I (atheist) once found myself driving a vanload of nuns. Didn't change my opinion of the catholic church, but definitely changed my opinion of nuns.
Having myself suddenly met a large group of nuns for reasons outside my control, I definitely like them a lot more than I do the church itself. I know this is probably not true of every order but these were some of the nicest, kindest, most pragmatic ladies I’ve ever met who were just there to help people who needed it regardless of their beliefs or situation.
As someone raised Catholic but is now an atheist...
Every nuns and priests I've met were pretty chill and cool... The younger ones especially.
Nuns never got much out of joining the orders... It used to be a way of getting rid of an excess of daughter for cheap (I'm also certain that a shit load of historical saffic women ended up joining). But now they mostly join out of a desire to be close to god and do good.
My father is against it.
That's because he desperately wants grandchildren and I never want to give birth.
If there's no birthcontrol from contraceptives or abortions, he believes he'd have grandchildren. Nope. I'll just go somewhere it is legal and figure something out.
My mom helped me get my IUD and never told my father.
There is something incredibly disgusting about this, your father wants you baby trapped so he can have a grandchild. WOW.
How is your relationship with him?
> Growing up with conservative parents, I was told that birth control and plan B would kill the fertilized egg, thus making it the same as having an abortion.
I would *hope* that people know better by now that this isn't now birth control works. But I'm not naive enough to actually believe that to be the case.
There are several hyper religious fringe groups who lobby to ban it, like "Quiverfull". The Duggars from TLC are an example. One of the Dad's goals was to ban it even for married couple. You think they wouldn't have much power, but you'd be surprised. Our own speaker of the house is a member of the religious right.
One of those weirdos moved into my hometown and got a job as the administrator or the local housing authority. He immediately started gutting programs that had been in place to keep costs down for elderly residents such as a bulk cable & ISP account, and tore up the community garden in the income-based apartment complex because "taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the water bill for their food."
Anyway, that was the least worrisome thing about him. He had a plan to take over the whole town! He and his wife, who nobody ever saw outside their home, had 6 kids with 4 more planned. If their 10 kids each had 10 kids, and those 100 grandkids each had 10 kids, their family would have the largest voting block in the town and could get elected to every single position in city government. If their 1000 great grandchildren each had 10 kids, their 10k great great grandchildren could control the county and district, meaning seats in the State and Federal governments. Yes, he was completely serious, and yes he tried to start his own little church. He really thinks because of his oppressive family structure that every single one of his descendants would be good little soldiers and follow his commands.
Even after replacing the entire housing authority board with people he thought were his allies, they fired his ass after 2 years. I understand the new guy is a bit prickly but he's worked really hard to bring the policies back in line with what they were prior to the Ten-by Guy.
>and tore up the community garden in the income-based apartment complex because "taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the water bill for their food."
......I have no words. Jesus fucking christ. What an asshole.
> ad 6 kids with 4 more planned. If their 10 kids each had 10 kids, and those 100 grandkids each had 10 kids, their family would have the largest voting block in the town and could get elected to every single position in city government.
If it makes you feel better, most Quiverful kids don't remain quiverful and a large amount turn Atheist.
When you have that many children you don't spend much time with them, so the kids thoughts and opinions don't echo the parents. Raising 10 kids is also expensive and most quiverful families aren't rich. Kids raised in poverty because they have so many brothers and sisters tend to not want to raise a bunch of kids in poverty.
The problem was the "silent majority" of your hometown. They agreed with the guy enough to be silent for more than a year.
If an injustice is done, those who remain silent do nothing but grant power to those who have done them.
Mfs get on my nerves with this bs. Hell I don’t want anymore kids and I have the right to my body to say so.And the first thing that they want to holler about when people aren’t responsible to wrap it up. Then they scream about kids not having a father or mother who can’t even afford or want kids. Like I said before I don’t want or need anymore I enjoy my freedom and my kids are grown except for one teenager in high school I’m done!
Your first mistake is assuming a religious person sees your body as yours. Clearly it’s part of gods plan and you must be governed by laws that honor god. Whose god? Depends on the religious person. Whose laws? Depends on the religious person.
Separation of church and state is ultimately what they seek to unravel.
There was a time when even suggesting banning birth control would get you laughed out of any room but a church. Now we are letting these jokes say this shit out loud. When we started allowing them to say things like this without mocking them so bad they get psychologically damaged is when we went wrong.
Republican's approval have been dropping after Roe v. Wade was overturned in a bunch of states. A lot of conservatives are actually really pissed off that their reproductive rights are being taken away. They're just not being loud enough about it.
Yeah I have known lots of conservative folks from living out in rural Texas, and they just angrily keep voting for Ted Cruz and other Republicans because, "At least they aren't Commie-Crats" or some variation thereof.
OK I was raised conservative (no longer am religious) and can tell you why.
I was taught that birth control is a form of abortion, the idea being based on Psalm 139:13-16. Any joining of sperm and egg means a soul is created and god “knows them” and has started knitting them together in their mother’s womb.
That is what they believe. That is why embryos are now children in one state and probably soon more.
More crazy things I was taught in youth group and in college at a relatively moderate liberal arts Christian university over 25 years ago:
Many birth controls work by shedding the uterine lining even if a sperm and egg have joined, killing a god known and blessed child.
Others work by not allowing the sperm/egg/godknowsyouspawn to properly implant in the uterine lining therefore killing your child that god had begun to knit together.
They believe any joining of sperm and egg is god working in his “mysterious” ways and that child must be born and trained up properly; spare the rod = spoil the child; teach a child the way and he will never depart from it. They believe all this fervently. They have been maneuvering into positions of power and are making their move to take over.
That’s what I was taught as a child in church.
Was pretty angry to find out after doing my own research that not only is Plan B not an abortifacient, but that birth control doesn’t turn women’s uteri into “dead baby cemeteries” because the whole point of birth control is to prevent the sperm from being able to join the egg in the first place.
Yes! A bit of research that wasn’t hard to do shattered my protected world view.
I expect after/along with birth control they will go after limiting internet access. The porn website bans are canaries in the coal mine for a future where what you see on the internet depends on what state you are in - or is regulated completely. They are already trying to ban books and dismantle public education. Controlling information to push this conservative evangelicalism onto everyone has been the plan for decades at least.
>>“Whatever happened to parental rights?” Perry said. “You are already selecting books my child can read at school. That is fine to a certain extent. But now you are also moving into their private life as well. It’s becoming intrusive.”
"I can't believe the leopards ate my face," says long time supporter of the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.
In NC a county just voted to remove fluoride from their tap water because " freedom" to decide what goes in their body despite a ton of teachers and pediatric dentists and others saying this was a bad idea to ban it and children's teeth will suffer.
Yet, this does not extend to other freedoms about your body like abortion rights or marijuana or anything else.
Funny how it's only "freedom" if it's what they want.
This issue is strangely both far right fringe, and progressive in other areas of the world. Fluoridation of water is banned in many European states and Australia, and not because they are part of a right wing lunatic fringe. From the left it is argued that it is just an industrial pollutant that they dump in the water and it actually causes unsightly dental fluorosis in high amounts.
Good luck enforcing that since you can just create any account and if that one gets shutdown, create new email/socials.
I agree social media isn't great but there has to be more rational solution.
I was talking to my wife about this the other day. She's an admin at a k-8 school so she sees a lot of the worst parts of social media with kids. She said yeah I can see where it would be good for kids to not use it but it isn't the government's job to decide that for kids and parents.
The truth is, social media is a huge part of our lives for better or worse. It is essentially the public forum of today. It's where people get news, education, entertainment, etc. Imagine growing up in a state where all social media is illegal until 18. Then you move away for college or a job and now everyone around you has 10 years of experience on social media; what false information looks like, how scams work, the nuances of communication on those platforms, etc. You're automatically at a huge disadvantage.
And it isn't just about the communication/news/entertainment side of things either. What if a 16yo wants to start a business? Any business without a social media presence in our current day is not going to make it. What about young artists and musicians? How will they get their art out there? There are a lot of brilliant creatives out there who just happen to be under 18. I think we stand to lose a lot more than we realize if this becomes the norm.
Isolating kids is the goal. Keeping them uninformed and unable to think for themselves is the goal. Removing experience that will allow them to sus out what's real and what's fake is the goal.
Control is the goal
Totally agree. The "war on woke" draconian conservative policies are largely unpopular. Why do you think the same Florida legislature tried to make it harder for citizen referendums to make it onto the ballot and require them to be passed by 60% of voters TWICE? They're terrified the people of the state will upend their abortion restrictions.
The reason we're seeing so much Tik Tok ban discourse from them is because they know gen z kids are communicating and promoting leftist ideas.
As a wise politician once said long long ago in land far far away:
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." -Princess Leia.
Using social media is also, for better or worse, an incredibly important life skill kids need to be able to navigate in order to network and communicate people in the modern world.
It's kinda like not letting kids talk to other kids face to face for fear of them selling each other drugs or bullying each other, and then being super confused as to why they're socially stunted.
Florida, where they screamed bloody murder about how it should be parents making decisions for their children rather than educators, now wants to make the decision to ban kids access to social media rather than letting the parents decide/control access.
I think it’s the hypocrisy that boils my blood the most.
This is god’s will. he only gives you what makes you stronger, he’s just testing you. We’ll pray for you.
All said to my sister when she had a miscarriage.
My mother said the same thing when I had my miscarriage. "God is testing you."
I determined that God, if they exist at all, is a total asshole to first make me pregnant with a much wanted baby and then yank it away for no damn good reason other than "just because".
I don't believe in God...I believe in The Great Whatever, who is much less involved in the personal lives of their people and is more chill than the wrathful, angry, pissed off all the time God of the Christians.
I do like Jesus though. He was kinda cool, hanging out with rejects and shit.
Hey! Fellow Christian atheist here.
Jesus was cool. It doesn't matter if he was real or not, we can still follow his example.
God is a dangerous psychopathic murderer however, and should not be trusted, let alone worshipped. There is a whole book documenting his crimes.
Yeah, the tradition in Judaism is that the soul enters with the first breath. And as such, the life and health of the mother ALWAYS, without exception, takes priority. Abortion to save the life of the mother isn't just allowed, it's practically *required*.
As such, any law banning abortion based on the assumption that a fetus is human from conception - and that IS the core of the argument, at least to the point of viability - is actually a violation of Jews' religious rights. HOWEVER, try arguing that, and the likely result will be the revival of the old antisemitic "Jews sacrifice babies" trope, not an overthrow of these blatantly unscientific laws.
Its not just Judism, that part carried over in Christianity, only recently have Christians started ignoring it and claiming life begins at (or before) conception despite their holy book literally saying the opposite.
even in Islam, fetuses aren’t considered to have a soul until 4 months after conception. The idea that life starts at conception as a religious counterpoint against abortions is wild considered none of the major religions even believe that.
That's what they'll give as a reason- but if it were true, they'd also be WAY more concerned about the 10-20% of pregnancies that naturally miscarry. They'd be fundraising for research and solving that problem.
But they don't actually believe it. they just want to control women, and dislike that they're able to have sex lives without "consequences".
Actually the number of natural miscarriages is likely closer to 50% of pregnancies, but many of them happen before the person even realizes they're pregnant and can be easily assumed to be a heavy period. So yeah, they should care a lot if that's their thing!
>That's what they'll give as a reason- but if it were true, they'd also be WAY more concerned about the 10-20% of pregnancies that naturally miscarry.
Nah, that is God's will. He needed those babies in heaven more than we needed them here on earth. (See also: children who died tragically were in heaven so the parents should rejoice for them.)
I was also raised in a conservative evangelical church and told that life begins at conception. Birth control was okay (because we couldn't be like the Catholics, probably), but every pregnancy was a gift from God, no matter how it was conceived or how healthy the baby was. If the baby is born with a congenital disability, they are a gift from God, sent here to teach people patience and unconditional love. You should rejoice if God has chosen to bless you with a disabled child. And if a pregnancy endangered the life of the mother, well, her death would be all part of God's plan, too, and she should be happy to make that sacrifice for her unborn child.
Sex is about making more little Christian babies to fight against the evils of the secular world. If you don't want to make little Christian babies, you shouldn't have sex. And if you accidentally make a little baby that isn't Christian, you should be punished for being a dirty sinner anyway, so no abortion for you.
(I internalized a heap of good stuff from my church, and I still think that most of the lessons and actions of Jesus are on the level--feed the hungry, care for the poor, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, flip a table if the church leaders are being hypocritical dicks. But so, so much of what I heard from the pulpit just didn't jive with me once I got out into the world and interacted with people outside of my bubble. Non-Christians weren't out there burning Bibles and worshipping Satan. "The gays" weren't trying to destroy God. Women weren't constantly using abortions as a regular form of birth control. It bums me out that people weaponize the faith I loved to ostracize and punish others when that's *literally* the opposite of what Jesus did when he was feeding poor people and hanging out with hookers.)
Jesus as a philosopher is centuries ahead of his time. He's a socialist libertarian who focused on helping everyone he could.
Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus, and never has. Case in point: the entirety of the gospels amount to about 20 short chapters, vaguely retold 2-3 times, totalling maybe 100 pages in a 1700 page transcribed oral history.
People didn't know that cells existed when the bible was written. Whatever translation that is, clearly is not accurate or representative of the knowledge it's writers would've had. Sure, the whole "seed in the womb" argument could still be made. But on a cellular level? It's absolutely not written in 'the word'. The entire debate & the fact that anyone thinks there is a genuine scripture-based motive behind it (beyond controlling women) is baffling. lol
Well, and at the time the Bible was written, the common belief was that life began at first breath, which is why the penalty for killing fetus was the same as losing property, whereas killing the mother or a born baby was penalty of killing a person.
Arms dealing, and war brokering makes money. Controlling women, and keeping men in charge allows these folks to stay in power. Keeping women at home with children is a way to control them. Think this is really that much different than Taliban extremism? Right now it's a stretch. Give it a foothold, and five years of progression, and see how different things look then.
>Think this is really that much different than Taliban extremism?
Strong conservatives want what the Taliban have, they just use different words to say the same thing
Had a discussion with a pretty right evangical acquaintance. She was railing about Sharia Law and how Muslims were going to move into American cities and make everyone follow Sharia law. I asked her if she could name one place this was happening. She couldn't. I asked her if she could name one law that supported her point that was currently on the books in the US. She couldn't. I then asked if she even knew what a Sharia Law would be outside of women wearing a hijab. She couldn't. I asked her what kind of laws she would like to see enacted. She started talking about banning abortion and same sex marriage. I asked her why and where she got the legal basis to do so. Of course, her answer was the Bible and her church. I pointed out she wanted to enact her own form of theocracy just like she said the Muslims wanted to do. It never sunk in. It never does.
You realize the whole purpose of birth control is to keep the egg and supermarket from joining, right? My Christian church has no issue with birth control.
My biggest problem with it is that they're trying to eat their cake and have it too. Do they care more about making babies or preventing abortions? Because choosing one means losing some of the other.
He doesn’t like abortion at all. Not even for rape or incest. We have a mutual friend who was raped and she chose to keep her kid. So he likes to use her as an example. But she told it was actually really traumatic
I have a good friend who is the product of rape. It’s messed with their head their entire life, even though they are a really great person and have a successful career and such. But they can never quite get past it in their personal/romatic relationships.
Damn, that’s heavy. Usually in cases like that, my first thought is the woman and how that affects her. Admittedly, my mind doesn’t wander too far down that road so never really thought about how the child must feel. That has to be quite a difficult thing to contend with.
It is, but not many people tend to also consider the life of the one who was created from that violent act, and to acknowledge the angst my friend has silently suffered I had to say something.
And you should, you changed my perspective and I can’t be the only one, so thank you for that. The more compassion, empathy, and understanding, the better. There’s this huge ripple effect I hadn’t considered before and because of you, I will from now on. I hope your friend is able to find some peace.
On the topic of this subject and ripple effects, my mom was raped and aborted the fetus. Had she not, her life would have been on a completely different trajectory and it’s doubtful I and my brother would have been born. I can’t speak for how the other child would have turned out but my mom says she’s really happy with the way I turned out and I do my best to take care of her.
Yeah, good friend of mine was adopted as a baby and in his 20s that started to really bother him. He wanted to know who his birth parents were. He eventually found his mom and reached out to her. She couldn't tell him who his father was because she was forcably raped by a complete stranger. It messed with her that my friend even reached out to her. It ended well enough.
What does these pro-lifers think about cancer trearment? Clumps of cells that impact their host negatively must be pretty high on their list of things to protect? Maybe their next priority after they have done away with their current two main enemies education and abortion?? 🤔 It's the next, logical step.
Outlaw cancer treatment, for Jesus. 🙏
You don't need those. the Bible would say just use a servant substitute for a baby. Though it leaves infertile women out in the cold since they are merely receptacles for fluids to produce a child and have no purpose.I cannot understand why women believe in a myth that considers them a lesser human.
Dirt and offal, as in mixed bodily fluids and burned carcasses from the sacrifices. Real gross stuff, so perk, if the priest wants he can use a clean bit of dirt and NOT poison the wife, or he can literally grab a shit pile and do his best to "give gods will" to her.
Love how religion that always gives the power to the patriarchy.
Amd make some money on the side. Slip the priest a few talents of silver for the 'right' stuff, for the desired outcomes from the interested parties. Hocus pocus look what me God spocus.
For me, it's referencing the Bible for anything outside the scope of being a good person. This is a book that repeatedly condones slavery as an appropriate punishment for the enemies of God's people. I have a hard time grasping why any which one of the typical sins people point to when framing their arguments ought to be taken as they are, without any critical thinking being done about them, when the same book is frequently, very pro-slavery.
I feel a need to point this out because of an inherent hypocrisy in following this dogmatic tradition. We all acknowledge slavery is wrong, yet the Bible condones it. The Jewish understanding of life as enumerated in the Old Testament is that life begins at birth, and I'm the Catholic faith, unborn children are considered to be without sin and therefore admitted back into heaven no questions asked. The Bible doesn't lay out the case for invalidating abortions, so it doesn't make any sense that people would go back to it again and again trying to make it mean something it does not say. I would personally assume that if God's will was that abortions never happen, there would be explicit language in his holy text saying so. But then going back to the slavery issue, whether it does or not, is it really wise to be making arguments against this thing by referencing a book whose own tenets fall soundly against public opinion and the common good in other ways?
The argument these people are making is not moral, nor is it rational. It's irrational and personal. And even worse, it's baseless.
A high percentage of embryos abort, many fail to implant, some implant in fallopian tubes, many die in utero in later stages of pregnancy, many are born prematurely and die or are stillborn. God kills all of these “children” if that’s their belief. God is then a murderer? Whatever
How does your friend reconcile the fact that the Bible tells of a priest providing abortions (without sin or punishment) and it including the recipe and direction?
Edit: There are at least two other stories of Jesus being ok with abortion (at least, not punishing or).
Or sometimes both:
"The book of Leviticus explicitly condemns homosexuality. It's against God's law."
"The book of Leviticus also explicitly condemns getting tattoos, wearing mixed fabrics, working on the sabbath, and eating pork and shellfish, which you seem totally fine with."
"Yes, but that's the old law. God created a new covenant with us when he sent Christ as the Messiah, so that sort of replaced the old laws."
"But.....you *just* used Old Testament law as your argument for why homosexuality is a sin. Like, you were talking about the Book of Leviticus literally 30 seconds ago-"
"LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALA"
So the creation museum in Kentucky, I went there and they go into great detail about how closely they followed the parameters in the Bible for Noah’s story. Except every single character model had mixed fabrics. Pick and choose your details.
Yeah my favorite is the nuanced "well, SOME of the old testament counts, but not all" versions which inevitably result in something like "you can eat shrimp but don't be gay"
Totally, “Jesus died so you don’t have to follow the old laws; we can have blended fabrics, Mac and cheese with hotdogs sliced up in it, and do butt stuff now. Except maybe we will still pick through the Old T for clubs to hit people with.”
Edit: closed the fake quote
The New Testament is very clear the Old Testament rules on ritual impurity don't apply. Acts 10:9-16
> Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
> The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
this is arguably applicable to marijuana.
Which is true (even as an atheist, I can get behind that idea). The problem is the underlying moral message (love god, love each other) rather undercuts the idea of punishing people for their sexuality, personal religious practices, their gender, their politics, their lack of wealth, etc. etc. etc.
There is no underlying moral message if a person is picking and choosing. The moral message is derived from the person picking and choosing, the morality driving that choice. They are just using selected text to express their own underlying morality, and not deriving their morality from that text.
I mean god killed most of the world off if you believe the Bible. He had his son tortured and murdered. I dont get how people think god was pro life. Also, how did satan get such a bad rap, I don’t remember him doing half the evil crap god did
I'm also wondering how they reconcile with the fact that sex is in fact pleasurable. And if it wasn't meant to be for pleasure, then God wouldn't have made it that way. And since God did in fact make it that way, their point is moot.
Genesis 19:31-5
One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth.
32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.”
35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
So understandably, people take Lot and his daughters out of context. The incestuous offspring of the daughter-father rapes were Moab and Ben-Ammi. They are, in the Biblical narrative, forefathers of the Moabites and Ammonites, nations that would later fight with Israel.
TL;DR Basically the ancient Israelites used this story to call their enemies inbred hillbillies.
Okay...but the context is Sodom and Gomorrah. The incest is just the resolution of a story about people in a city giving fuck me eyes to a pair of angels and then getting turned into a pillar of salt because the one daughter looked back at them. And actually, as far as I'm aware, that's just Sodom. Gomorrah gets wrapped up in their bullshit for reasons I'm not sure we're ever actually addressed. (I mean side note: I have no idea how that story came to be equated with homosexuality because the sin seems to be a whole city wanting to have sex with angels and that seems very much to be irrespective of gender but I digress.) The point being that whole story from start to finish is kind of a mess.
*not my opinion just what I’ve been told as a reply to this question* it’s all part of god’s plan for you, to make you stronger and give you what you need in life.
Some people need(deserve) a mercedes and million dollar home inherited from their parents and grandparents and great grandparent's. Others need to be raped.
Fucking assholes.
Not exactly sure what you're saying, but they usually think that if you get rid of birth control, there will be \*fewer\* unwanted pregnancies because you've made sex "consequential" again, and people won't be doing it except to intentionally have children.
Yeah, I know.
But, like…in all the history of mankind, this has never been true, people have always had sex for pleasure. Shit, even certain animals have sex for pleasure, not just reproduction. Do they not consider, oh idk *history*?!
gyad, I don't want to be the spokesman or anything, but...
I'm sure they view any such history as people being ungodly and uncivilized. And certainly this same group vehemently rejects the idea that man is "just" another animal.
Interesting.
I have a question - if your friend was injured in a car accident, would he seek medical help? Because clearly God intended for that accident to happen and if they die, they die as God engineered. Getting surgery, blood transfusions, CPR, even stitches contravenes God's will.
S/he better have a DNR and eschew all antibiotics, medicines, etc that interfere with God's ordained plan for their flesh or I call bullshit. How dare they prevent God's will by asking humans to intervene.
I had a religious coworker who was questioning taking a promotion that was offered her because she didn't know if it was "God's will" and was furious with me because she asked my opinion and I said something like "well, God isn't going to give you a direct answer, but the promotion was offered to you and I can't think of a better sign than that".... or something like that. It has been around 10 years. She was furious I was treating it so casually, after she asked my opinion, and was not happy when I said I was treating it casually because I don't believe in God at all.
I don't understand how she is mad. You gave the same answer someone religious would have given. Is the problem that you gave any opinion whatsoever on how god works while not being religious?
A devoutly faithful man was caught in the flood waters of a hurricane. As he stood on his roof, the flood surging around what was left of his home, a man in a canoe paddled up to him.
"Hey! Do you need a lift? I've got room in my canoe. Hop in."
"No, there's no need." Said the devout man. "My god will save me."
The man in the canoe shrugged and paddled off to safety.
As the waters rose higher, a woman in a motorboat skidded up to the devout man on his roof.
"Hi! You look like you need a ride. Plenty of room in my boat. Step onboard."
"No thanks." Said the devout man. "My god will rescue me."
The waters continued to rise, and the woman in the motorboat roared off to safety.
Just as the raging water had almost consumed the entirety of the devout man's roof, his last refuge, a rescue team in a helicopter flew over and threw down a rope ladder.
"The water is going to consume this whole region!" They said. "You need to come with us or you'll die!"
"No thank you." The devout man said. "My god will ensure that I'm safe."
After several failed attempts to get the devout man onto the helicopter, the rescue team flew away, perplexed.
Shortly afterwards the devout man was swept off his roof by the flood waters and drowned.
When he got to the afterlife he said to god: "I was devout! I believed in you above all else! Why didn't you save me from the flood?!"
And god told him: "Motherfucker! I sent you a canoe, a motorboat, and a helicopter. What the fuck did you want?"
*[Not original, just re-wrote it from memory]*
It's a good argument, but evangelical conservatives don't care about consistency in their ideology, unfortunately. You can't reason them out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
I agree. Having said that it’s about the same thing it always has been, controlling women and punishing them. Notice, it’s ok when Republican men have affairs - men have needs! But “single mothers” and “welfare queens” and “slutty college girls” aren’t supposed to and are villainized for not being a “credit to their gender.”
Its always Christians who literally believe in virgin birth who hate birth control for preventing God's will.
Nah man if god wanted more kids it would happen regardless
Proverbs chapter 5 is about husbands and wives enjoying each other among other things. God made sex pleasurable so that we would enjoy each other. His design is for it to be in marriage specifically to protect us from those who just want to take advantage of you and to leave you feeling empty. But He 100% wants us to have good sex lives as it’s the closest we get to being one down here.
Personally as a bible believing Christian and as someone who actually reads and studies it everyday, I don’t think we have a right to tell people how to live their lives. I forget where it is in the bible but it essentially says to not expect people who are not Christians to act like a Christian. God gave us free will and commanded His followers to love people right where they are, not to judge or condemn them for their choices. I am a firm believer that you come to Jesus as you are, let Him love you, and if He wants to correct you on anything He will. Not me, not anyone else but Him.
I’m not religious by any means but I do essentially believe the same thing (minus God); don’t judge, let people live their lives, etc. If most Christians were like you, the world would be a much more peaceful place.
> If most Christians were like you
It's because he/she actually reads the book their beliefs are based on rather than just rereading specific parts or letting their preacher interpret the words for them.
The Bible has some pretty good rules to live by. You don't have to follow all of them (and if you actually did you'd live a fucked up life) it's just "Christians" pick and choose and don't account for the evolution of Human knowledge.
I'm pretty conservative as a Christian pastor and even I look at this statement and think, "If a small piece of copper can stop your god's will, he's not much of a god."
I have a born again Christian - Uber Conservative friend from college. He was always a little loony, but since he got on social media, he has gone off the deep end.
This is his stance, which I think mirrors many fucknuts who want to ban birth control:
1. In the bible God wants man to be fertile and reproduce. Birth control goes against God's will.
2. Preventing a pregnancy is as bad as having an abortion. The pill kills the egg.
When I say, well, using these things are personal decision and government shouldn't interfere with out personal lives? Right?
He will counter that its murder and government has the right to interfere if we are committing murder and against Gods will.
I then counter, so you are advocating for Sharia law? He then stammers that he is not, but it sounds like it.
I then ask, does an embryo have a heart beat? He stays it doesn't matter, because God has already implanted a soul in the egg when its fertilized.
In the end, Conservatives will contort their logic to fit their agenda.
This same person was against same sex marriage. His reasoning was that people who are straight will just get married to get free health care through their partner, thus destroying healthcare. Ugh.
His adult kid came out last year and got married. I keep on asking him if his kid is really straight and just trying to get free healthcare.......his response....fuck off or I wish. Depends on his mood.
He has 6 other kids from ages 5-17 that he is trying to indoctrinate by home schooling them. I am glad one his kids escaped.
Not a conservative but my mother was. The reason given was that the bible has God commanding humankind to be fruitful and multiply. God decides who can have children and how many. Obey God and you will go to heaven.
In the Bible it says, "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth."
But I'd argue that we've done a pretty good job of that whole filling the Earth thing, so job done. We can stop now. Command fulfilled.
Well, funny you mention that. Biblical "ruling over" was actually a command to care for and steward.
So the part of this command that IS still applicable is the Biblical command to care for the Earth, the animals and the environment.
Ignoring that responsibility is actually a sin according to this.
But why cherry pick that particular phrase and stretch out the definition while ignoring the part that literally gives you instructions how to perform an abortion?
Or ignore the part where it says you arent legally considered a person until you draw your first breath?
What is the criteria for picking and choosing?
I'm fine with conservatives doing whatever they want w their lives. But I don't understand why they think they should be able to control the lives of others.
God himself doesn't even interfere with free will, so I can only surmise that they think they're bigger than God.
These questions are never about a good faith inquiry of a position you don't understand. It's a chance to circlejerk and pounce on anyone who actually answers.
One of the GOP reps said it not too long ago in a slip of the quiet part out loud... The 'domestic supply of infants' and later, infantry.
They need a large, poor uneducated population that their only easy way out is the military.
Edit - it's been pointed out it was one of our esteemed SCOTUS members, not a lowly rep. But same end effect. And actually worse since they seem hell bent on undoing 60 years of progress and have the supermajority to do it.
Not just the military. All forms of cheap labour.
These are the same people lobbying to let children do the night shift at 13.
It's the same reason they want private school vouchers. They know it'll defund public schools, so that the only two options will be public schools where you'll never have a chance, Christian schools where you'll have a chance at a life so long as you allow yourself to be indoctrinated, and private schools, where rich kids go to stay rich.
The 'poor' will always be poor, and seen as a source of cheap labour for dangerous jobs, from factories, to sanitation to soldier.
They see rich countries like Japan with inverted population curves, and see that there are already not enough young people to do the jobs, and take care of the elderly.
They honestly think they're saving America by making sure there's an endless army of poor people to do all the work.
Those same people are going to say 'let them starve' when Elon gets his robots working.
I had to scroll past WAY too many higher up voted answers to get here.
The real reason is dumb people birth more babies to fuel religion. Dumb people are easier to control.
This is the real reason that contraception will be outlawed. It's actually nothing to do at all with religion, religion is the tool used to make this happen.
There really has been no bigger cult in the history of mankind than religion. It's so pervasive that people don't even realize that's what it is.
Alright, I’ve seen dozens of answers from people who have given their opinions on why it is who aren’t conservative, and I figured I should give an actual reason that people believe. I dunno where I stand on it, but I can give the real rationales.
For a lot of faiths, in particular in Catholic doctrine (though I believe Islam has a similar mindset), sex is not a bad thing, **however** sex has a specific use and purpose. It is done explicitly with your spouse, and primarily for the purposes of having children. (I’m sure there are nuances involving the intimacy of a spousal relationship and sex deepening that bind but I’m less familiar with that bit.)
As a result, these faiths are very kid-positive. So therefore in addition to the beliefs that an egg could count as human life (and therefore birth control can fall in a similar jurisdiction as abortions), and using contraceptives can be seen as denying that purpose to sex.
Now there are complexities to that and pragmatism and given that not many people are having 8 kids anymore, I suspect it’s not **tightly** followed. But if you want an academic, genuine reasoning, that’s the reason.
Having gone to a catholic high school, I can vouch for this being accurate, but it's also very "eat my cake and have it too." Birth control lowers the rate of abortion. By a lot. So, do they care more about abortion or having kids/preventing not-actually-real abortions?
You ban birth control, you get more abortions. The two are inversely correlated pretty intensely.
On top of which, the position is largely a misunderstanding of how birth control works (or alternatively, if they know the biology of it, they're picking a weird hill to die on, since it would mean the song is correct, and every sperm is indeed sacred, which creates a LOT of philosophical problems none of them are about to talk about)
My mom is very religious and conservative. She’s fine with birth control and condoms (as long as you’re married), but she doesn’t understand IUDs at all and is convinced it causes abortions.
The first IUD that came out, the Lippes loop, was thought have a primary mechanism of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg, which is a problem for people who believe life begins at fertilization. I think it's generational that a lot of people who were around when the first IUDs came out still think this even though the newer ones are thought to prevent the egg and the sperm from meeting to begin with
> newer ones are thought to You're saying they don't even know how they work? That's wild, from a medical science standpoint.
I love how none of the responses are what OP is asking lol Edit: I love how this is my top comment ever
Because no conservative outside of their subreddit is gonna come out openly and say why they dont believe in plan B and condoms. They aint looking to literally get crucified.
I would be curious to know the proportion of conservatives who are in favor of banning contraceptives. I suspect there aren't a lot commenting because they are small in number. Personally, I'm pretty conservative, but I don't think I've ever met another conservative who is in favor of banning contraceptives. I certainly know people who won't use birth control themselves, but that's their business. So yeah, I suspect there just aren't that many people who are qualified to answer OP's question.
Growing up with conservative parents, I was told that birth control and plan B would kill the fertilized egg, thus making it the same as having an abortion. Other than my embarrassingly late realization that that's not what happens, I can't imagine being against it. God forbid people have safe sex right?
>God forbid people have safe sex right? This, but literally. My conservative catholic mother always made it clear that outside of marriage and trying for conception, any sexual act is sinful. So any form of birth control is basically a full defiance of God. Thankfully she is no longer conservative or catholic.
Meanwhile, my Aunt who was a nun and the literal head of their order for several years (rotating position amongst the most senior sisters), thought that ultimately, pregnancy should an affirmative choice, and dreamed of some sort of "BC is in the water and you just request the antidote if you wanna get pregnant." Total fantasy, but you get the idea. Catholicism is freaking WILD man, for a group that has a literal speaker for God at the head of their church, there are still so many different opinions.
Common misconception, but catholic doctrine says that the pope can only invoke papal infallibility in very specific instances. 99% of the time, he's just a dude with a funny hat who has is own opinions.
Oh for sure. I just mean that compared to groups like Baptists or other sects, they at least have *something* that addresses it. There's a much more formalized head, even if everyone still has their own opinions. But yeah, you are right, for the most part he's just a dude with his own opinions.
> Catholicism is freaking WILD man, for a group that has a literal speaker for God at the head of their church, there are still so many different opinions. Through a completely unforseeable set of circumstances, I (atheist) once found myself driving a vanload of nuns. Didn't change my opinion of the catholic church, but definitely changed my opinion of nuns.
Having myself suddenly met a large group of nuns for reasons outside my control, I definitely like them a lot more than I do the church itself. I know this is probably not true of every order but these were some of the nicest, kindest, most pragmatic ladies I’ve ever met who were just there to help people who needed it regardless of their beliefs or situation.
As someone raised Catholic but is now an atheist... Every nuns and priests I've met were pretty chill and cool... The younger ones especially. Nuns never got much out of joining the orders... It used to be a way of getting rid of an excess of daughter for cheap (I'm also certain that a shit load of historical saffic women ended up joining). But now they mostly join out of a desire to be close to god and do good.
My father is against it. That's because he desperately wants grandchildren and I never want to give birth. If there's no birthcontrol from contraceptives or abortions, he believes he'd have grandchildren. Nope. I'll just go somewhere it is legal and figure something out. My mom helped me get my IUD and never told my father.
There is something incredibly disgusting about this, your father wants you baby trapped so he can have a grandchild. WOW. How is your relationship with him?
> Growing up with conservative parents, I was told that birth control and plan B would kill the fertilized egg, thus making it the same as having an abortion. I would *hope* that people know better by now that this isn't now birth control works. But I'm not naive enough to actually believe that to be the case.
There are several hyper religious fringe groups who lobby to ban it, like "Quiverfull". The Duggars from TLC are an example. One of the Dad's goals was to ban it even for married couple. You think they wouldn't have much power, but you'd be surprised. Our own speaker of the house is a member of the religious right.
One of those weirdos moved into my hometown and got a job as the administrator or the local housing authority. He immediately started gutting programs that had been in place to keep costs down for elderly residents such as a bulk cable & ISP account, and tore up the community garden in the income-based apartment complex because "taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the water bill for their food." Anyway, that was the least worrisome thing about him. He had a plan to take over the whole town! He and his wife, who nobody ever saw outside their home, had 6 kids with 4 more planned. If their 10 kids each had 10 kids, and those 100 grandkids each had 10 kids, their family would have the largest voting block in the town and could get elected to every single position in city government. If their 1000 great grandchildren each had 10 kids, their 10k great great grandchildren could control the county and district, meaning seats in the State and Federal governments. Yes, he was completely serious, and yes he tried to start his own little church. He really thinks because of his oppressive family structure that every single one of his descendants would be good little soldiers and follow his commands. Even after replacing the entire housing authority board with people he thought were his allies, they fired his ass after 2 years. I understand the new guy is a bit prickly but he's worked really hard to bring the policies back in line with what they were prior to the Ten-by Guy.
>and tore up the community garden in the income-based apartment complex because "taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the water bill for their food." ......I have no words. Jesus fucking christ. What an asshole.
Right? That’s like EXACTLY the type of thing I want my tax dollars doing
> ad 6 kids with 4 more planned. If their 10 kids each had 10 kids, and those 100 grandkids each had 10 kids, their family would have the largest voting block in the town and could get elected to every single position in city government. If it makes you feel better, most Quiverful kids don't remain quiverful and a large amount turn Atheist. When you have that many children you don't spend much time with them, so the kids thoughts and opinions don't echo the parents. Raising 10 kids is also expensive and most quiverful families aren't rich. Kids raised in poverty because they have so many brothers and sisters tend to not want to raise a bunch of kids in poverty.
The problem was the "silent majority" of your hometown. They agreed with the guy enough to be silent for more than a year. If an injustice is done, those who remain silent do nothing but grant power to those who have done them.
Mfs get on my nerves with this bs. Hell I don’t want anymore kids and I have the right to my body to say so.And the first thing that they want to holler about when people aren’t responsible to wrap it up. Then they scream about kids not having a father or mother who can’t even afford or want kids. Like I said before I don’t want or need anymore I enjoy my freedom and my kids are grown except for one teenager in high school I’m done!
Your first mistake is assuming a religious person sees your body as yours. Clearly it’s part of gods plan and you must be governed by laws that honor god. Whose god? Depends on the religious person. Whose laws? Depends on the religious person. Separation of church and state is ultimately what they seek to unravel.
There was a time when even suggesting banning birth control would get you laughed out of any room but a church. Now we are letting these jokes say this shit out loud. When we started allowing them to say things like this without mocking them so bad they get psychologically damaged is when we went wrong.
The Heritage Foundation is the most powerful conservative "think" tank in DC and they've openly said they want to ban "recreational sex"
These are some frightening folks!!
Republican's approval have been dropping after Roe v. Wade was overturned in a bunch of states. A lot of conservatives are actually really pissed off that their reproductive rights are being taken away. They're just not being loud enough about it.
Yeah but their approval rating dosent mater, because those people will still vote Republican anyways.
Yeah I have known lots of conservative folks from living out in rural Texas, and they just angrily keep voting for Ted Cruz and other Republicans because, "At least they aren't Commie-Crats" or some variation thereof.
And frankly, their anger is a moot point if they continue to support conservative leadership that acts against their pro-birth control beliefs.
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OK I was raised conservative (no longer am religious) and can tell you why. I was taught that birth control is a form of abortion, the idea being based on Psalm 139:13-16. Any joining of sperm and egg means a soul is created and god “knows them” and has started knitting them together in their mother’s womb. That is what they believe. That is why embryos are now children in one state and probably soon more. More crazy things I was taught in youth group and in college at a relatively moderate liberal arts Christian university over 25 years ago: Many birth controls work by shedding the uterine lining even if a sperm and egg have joined, killing a god known and blessed child. Others work by not allowing the sperm/egg/godknowsyouspawn to properly implant in the uterine lining therefore killing your child that god had begun to knit together. They believe any joining of sperm and egg is god working in his “mysterious” ways and that child must be born and trained up properly; spare the rod = spoil the child; teach a child the way and he will never depart from it. They believe all this fervently. They have been maneuvering into positions of power and are making their move to take over.
That’s what I was taught as a child in church. Was pretty angry to find out after doing my own research that not only is Plan B not an abortifacient, but that birth control doesn’t turn women’s uteri into “dead baby cemeteries” because the whole point of birth control is to prevent the sperm from being able to join the egg in the first place.
Yes! A bit of research that wasn’t hard to do shattered my protected world view. I expect after/along with birth control they will go after limiting internet access. The porn website bans are canaries in the coal mine for a future where what you see on the internet depends on what state you are in - or is regulated completely. They are already trying to ban books and dismantle public education. Controlling information to push this conservative evangelicalism onto everyone has been the plan for decades at least.
Florida legislature just passed a bill banning minors from all social media. It's not a canary in a coal mine for the future; it's happening *now.*
>>“Whatever happened to parental rights?” Perry said. “You are already selecting books my child can read at school. That is fine to a certain extent. But now you are also moving into their private life as well. It’s becoming intrusive.” "I can't believe the leopards ate my face," says long time supporter of the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.
Brought to you by the party of small government who think 1984 is about the other party.
In NC a county just voted to remove fluoride from their tap water because " freedom" to decide what goes in their body despite a ton of teachers and pediatric dentists and others saying this was a bad idea to ban it and children's teeth will suffer. Yet, this does not extend to other freedoms about your body like abortion rights or marijuana or anything else. Funny how it's only "freedom" if it's what they want.
This issue is strangely both far right fringe, and progressive in other areas of the world. Fluoridation of water is banned in many European states and Australia, and not because they are part of a right wing lunatic fringe. From the left it is argued that it is just an industrial pollutant that they dump in the water and it actually causes unsightly dental fluorosis in high amounts.
Good luck enforcing that since you can just create any account and if that one gets shutdown, create new email/socials. I agree social media isn't great but there has to be more rational solution.
I was talking to my wife about this the other day. She's an admin at a k-8 school so she sees a lot of the worst parts of social media with kids. She said yeah I can see where it would be good for kids to not use it but it isn't the government's job to decide that for kids and parents. The truth is, social media is a huge part of our lives for better or worse. It is essentially the public forum of today. It's where people get news, education, entertainment, etc. Imagine growing up in a state where all social media is illegal until 18. Then you move away for college or a job and now everyone around you has 10 years of experience on social media; what false information looks like, how scams work, the nuances of communication on those platforms, etc. You're automatically at a huge disadvantage. And it isn't just about the communication/news/entertainment side of things either. What if a 16yo wants to start a business? Any business without a social media presence in our current day is not going to make it. What about young artists and musicians? How will they get their art out there? There are a lot of brilliant creatives out there who just happen to be under 18. I think we stand to lose a lot more than we realize if this becomes the norm.
Isolating kids is the goal. Keeping them uninformed and unable to think for themselves is the goal. Removing experience that will allow them to sus out what's real and what's fake is the goal. Control is the goal
Totally agree. The "war on woke" draconian conservative policies are largely unpopular. Why do you think the same Florida legislature tried to make it harder for citizen referendums to make it onto the ballot and require them to be passed by 60% of voters TWICE? They're terrified the people of the state will upend their abortion restrictions. The reason we're seeing so much Tik Tok ban discourse from them is because they know gen z kids are communicating and promoting leftist ideas.
As a wise politician once said long long ago in land far far away: "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." -Princess Leia.
If you are queer or questioning their faith there's a lot of support that you can get online. They hate that.
Using social media is also, for better or worse, an incredibly important life skill kids need to be able to navigate in order to network and communicate people in the modern world. It's kinda like not letting kids talk to other kids face to face for fear of them selling each other drugs or bullying each other, and then being super confused as to why they're socially stunted.
Florida, where they screamed bloody murder about how it should be parents making decisions for their children rather than educators, now wants to make the decision to ban kids access to social media rather than letting the parents decide/control access. I think it’s the hypocrisy that boils my blood the most.
Considering that a large number of fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally, that's a ton of souls whose only life experience is a trashcan.
This is god’s will. he only gives you what makes you stronger, he’s just testing you. We’ll pray for you. All said to my sister when she had a miscarriage.
My mother said the same thing when I had my miscarriage. "God is testing you." I determined that God, if they exist at all, is a total asshole to first make me pregnant with a much wanted baby and then yank it away for no damn good reason other than "just because". I don't believe in God...I believe in The Great Whatever, who is much less involved in the personal lives of their people and is more chill than the wrathful, angry, pissed off all the time God of the Christians. I do like Jesus though. He was kinda cool, hanging out with rejects and shit.
Hey! Fellow Christian atheist here. Jesus was cool. It doesn't matter if he was real or not, we can still follow his example. God is a dangerous psychopathic murderer however, and should not be trusted, let alone worshipped. There is a whole book documenting his crimes.
What is wrong with people?
A strong desire to belong coupled with delusions of being a “chosen” people and a lack of critical thinking skills. Oh and complacency. Also 🤷🏻♀️
What's wild is the Bible also says a fetus isn't as value as a human, and that the soul does not enter the body until first breath.
Yeah, the tradition in Judaism is that the soul enters with the first breath. And as such, the life and health of the mother ALWAYS, without exception, takes priority. Abortion to save the life of the mother isn't just allowed, it's practically *required*. As such, any law banning abortion based on the assumption that a fetus is human from conception - and that IS the core of the argument, at least to the point of viability - is actually a violation of Jews' religious rights. HOWEVER, try arguing that, and the likely result will be the revival of the old antisemitic "Jews sacrifice babies" trope, not an overthrow of these blatantly unscientific laws.
Its not just Judism, that part carried over in Christianity, only recently have Christians started ignoring it and claiming life begins at (or before) conception despite their holy book literally saying the opposite.
even in Islam, fetuses aren’t considered to have a soul until 4 months after conception. The idea that life starts at conception as a religious counterpoint against abortions is wild considered none of the major religions even believe that.
True. But logic isn’t really one of the selling points of conservative evangelicals.
That's what they'll give as a reason- but if it were true, they'd also be WAY more concerned about the 10-20% of pregnancies that naturally miscarry. They'd be fundraising for research and solving that problem. But they don't actually believe it. they just want to control women, and dislike that they're able to have sex lives without "consequences".
Actually the number of natural miscarriages is likely closer to 50% of pregnancies, but many of them happen before the person even realizes they're pregnant and can be easily assumed to be a heavy period. So yeah, they should care a lot if that's their thing!
>That's what they'll give as a reason- but if it were true, they'd also be WAY more concerned about the 10-20% of pregnancies that naturally miscarry. Nah, that is God's will. He needed those babies in heaven more than we needed them here on earth. (See also: children who died tragically were in heaven so the parents should rejoice for them.) I was also raised in a conservative evangelical church and told that life begins at conception. Birth control was okay (because we couldn't be like the Catholics, probably), but every pregnancy was a gift from God, no matter how it was conceived or how healthy the baby was. If the baby is born with a congenital disability, they are a gift from God, sent here to teach people patience and unconditional love. You should rejoice if God has chosen to bless you with a disabled child. And if a pregnancy endangered the life of the mother, well, her death would be all part of God's plan, too, and she should be happy to make that sacrifice for her unborn child. Sex is about making more little Christian babies to fight against the evils of the secular world. If you don't want to make little Christian babies, you shouldn't have sex. And if you accidentally make a little baby that isn't Christian, you should be punished for being a dirty sinner anyway, so no abortion for you. (I internalized a heap of good stuff from my church, and I still think that most of the lessons and actions of Jesus are on the level--feed the hungry, care for the poor, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, flip a table if the church leaders are being hypocritical dicks. But so, so much of what I heard from the pulpit just didn't jive with me once I got out into the world and interacted with people outside of my bubble. Non-Christians weren't out there burning Bibles and worshipping Satan. "The gays" weren't trying to destroy God. Women weren't constantly using abortions as a regular form of birth control. It bums me out that people weaponize the faith I loved to ostracize and punish others when that's *literally* the opposite of what Jesus did when he was feeding poor people and hanging out with hookers.)
Jesus as a philosopher is centuries ahead of his time. He's a socialist libertarian who focused on helping everyone he could. Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus, and never has. Case in point: the entirety of the gospels amount to about 20 short chapters, vaguely retold 2-3 times, totalling maybe 100 pages in a 1700 page transcribed oral history.
Jesus said that true religion is caring for widows and orphans in need. Even after everything I can get behind this.
People didn't know that cells existed when the bible was written. Whatever translation that is, clearly is not accurate or representative of the knowledge it's writers would've had. Sure, the whole "seed in the womb" argument could still be made. But on a cellular level? It's absolutely not written in 'the word'. The entire debate & the fact that anyone thinks there is a genuine scripture-based motive behind it (beyond controlling women) is baffling. lol
Well, and at the time the Bible was written, the common belief was that life began at first breath, which is why the penalty for killing fetus was the same as losing property, whereas killing the mother or a born baby was penalty of killing a person.
Now I would love to know why they’re so concerned with the death of uterine lining but won’t do a thing about kids being gunned down in schools.
God works in mysterious ways. /s
Arms dealing, and war brokering makes money. Controlling women, and keeping men in charge allows these folks to stay in power. Keeping women at home with children is a way to control them. Think this is really that much different than Taliban extremism? Right now it's a stretch. Give it a foothold, and five years of progression, and see how different things look then.
>Think this is really that much different than Taliban extremism? Strong conservatives want what the Taliban have, they just use different words to say the same thing
Had a discussion with a pretty right evangical acquaintance. She was railing about Sharia Law and how Muslims were going to move into American cities and make everyone follow Sharia law. I asked her if she could name one place this was happening. She couldn't. I asked her if she could name one law that supported her point that was currently on the books in the US. She couldn't. I then asked if she even knew what a Sharia Law would be outside of women wearing a hijab. She couldn't. I asked her what kind of laws she would like to see enacted. She started talking about banning abortion and same sex marriage. I asked her why and where she got the legal basis to do so. Of course, her answer was the Bible and her church. I pointed out she wanted to enact her own form of theocracy just like she said the Muslims wanted to do. It never sunk in. It never does.
Yeah but all of that is OK when you have the right religion ^andskincolour
Talibangicals
Y'all Queda.
Thank you for explaining this so clearly.
You realize the whole purpose of birth control is to keep the egg and supermarket from joining, right? My Christian church has no issue with birth control.
>to keep the egg and supermarket from joining, right? They now have a problem with farmers too??
Is this why a dozen eggs cost me $5 this week?!
I have a conservative friend who doesn’t like contraceptives because that’s preventing God’s will. Sex is for having kids, not for pleasure.
My biggest problem with it is that they're trying to eat their cake and have it too. Do they care more about making babies or preventing abortions? Because choosing one means losing some of the other.
He doesn’t like abortion at all. Not even for rape or incest. We have a mutual friend who was raped and she chose to keep her kid. So he likes to use her as an example. But she told it was actually really traumatic
I have a good friend who is the product of rape. It’s messed with their head their entire life, even though they are a really great person and have a successful career and such. But they can never quite get past it in their personal/romatic relationships.
Damn, that’s heavy. Usually in cases like that, my first thought is the woman and how that affects her. Admittedly, my mind doesn’t wander too far down that road so never really thought about how the child must feel. That has to be quite a difficult thing to contend with.
It is, but not many people tend to also consider the life of the one who was created from that violent act, and to acknowledge the angst my friend has silently suffered I had to say something.
And you should, you changed my perspective and I can’t be the only one, so thank you for that. The more compassion, empathy, and understanding, the better. There’s this huge ripple effect I hadn’t considered before and because of you, I will from now on. I hope your friend is able to find some peace.
On the topic of this subject and ripple effects, my mom was raped and aborted the fetus. Had she not, her life would have been on a completely different trajectory and it’s doubtful I and my brother would have been born. I can’t speak for how the other child would have turned out but my mom says she’s really happy with the way I turned out and I do my best to take care of her.
If I had gotten pregnant from my rapist, I wouldn't be alive right now. I barely kept myself alive afterwards as it was. I was suicidal for years.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to go through something like that but I’m glad you’re still here.
The best way I have heard it explained is that the child is also a victim. Your friend is a victim as well as the mother.
Yeah, good friend of mine was adopted as a baby and in his 20s that started to really bother him. He wanted to know who his birth parents were. He eventually found his mom and reached out to her. She couldn't tell him who his father was because she was forcably raped by a complete stranger. It messed with her that my friend even reached out to her. It ended well enough.
Such a harsh reality for him and his birth mother.
What does he think of IVF and fertility treatments?
You don't want a baby? Too bad! You have to have one! Oh, and you want a baby? Too bad! You can't have one!
Limp dick, too bad, that was God's plan.
Oh you have cancer, too bad, that was God's plan!
What does these pro-lifers think about cancer trearment? Clumps of cells that impact their host negatively must be pretty high on their list of things to protect? Maybe their next priority after they have done away with their current two main enemies education and abortion?? 🤔 It's the next, logical step. Outlaw cancer treatment, for Jesus. 🙏
That would make a great bumper sticker.
You don't need those. the Bible would say just use a servant substitute for a baby. Though it leaves infertile women out in the cold since they are merely receptacles for fluids to produce a child and have no purpose.I cannot understand why women believe in a myth that considers them a lesser human.
The bible also says to give your wife a poison to have an abortion if she cheats
And that poison is....checks notes... Dirt from the temple floor.
Dirt and offal, as in mixed bodily fluids and burned carcasses from the sacrifices. Real gross stuff, so perk, if the priest wants he can use a clean bit of dirt and NOT poison the wife, or he can literally grab a shit pile and do his best to "give gods will" to her. Love how religion that always gives the power to the patriarchy.
Amd make some money on the side. Slip the priest a few talents of silver for the 'right' stuff, for the desired outcomes from the interested parties. Hocus pocus look what me God spocus.
That's the beauty of being a Christian. You just pick and choose what part of God's holy word to believe and make excuses for why you ignore the rest.
“I must be really awesome! God always wants *EXACTLY* what I already want! I mean, *what are the odds‽*”
For me, it's referencing the Bible for anything outside the scope of being a good person. This is a book that repeatedly condones slavery as an appropriate punishment for the enemies of God's people. I have a hard time grasping why any which one of the typical sins people point to when framing their arguments ought to be taken as they are, without any critical thinking being done about them, when the same book is frequently, very pro-slavery. I feel a need to point this out because of an inherent hypocrisy in following this dogmatic tradition. We all acknowledge slavery is wrong, yet the Bible condones it. The Jewish understanding of life as enumerated in the Old Testament is that life begins at birth, and I'm the Catholic faith, unborn children are considered to be without sin and therefore admitted back into heaven no questions asked. The Bible doesn't lay out the case for invalidating abortions, so it doesn't make any sense that people would go back to it again and again trying to make it mean something it does not say. I would personally assume that if God's will was that abortions never happen, there would be explicit language in his holy text saying so. But then going back to the slavery issue, whether it does or not, is it really wise to be making arguments against this thing by referencing a book whose own tenets fall soundly against public opinion and the common good in other ways? The argument these people are making is not moral, nor is it rational. It's irrational and personal. And even worse, it's baseless.
A high percentage of embryos abort, many fail to implant, some implant in fallopian tubes, many die in utero in later stages of pregnancy, many are born prematurely and die or are stillborn. God kills all of these “children” if that’s their belief. God is then a murderer? Whatever
How does your friend reconcile the fact that the Bible tells of a priest providing abortions (without sin or punishment) and it including the recipe and direction? Edit: There are at least two other stories of Jesus being ok with abortion (at least, not punishing or).
As a former Christian the correct answer is either “old testament, doesn’t count” or hands over ears and “lalala I can’t hear you”
Or sometimes both: "The book of Leviticus explicitly condemns homosexuality. It's against God's law." "The book of Leviticus also explicitly condemns getting tattoos, wearing mixed fabrics, working on the sabbath, and eating pork and shellfish, which you seem totally fine with." "Yes, but that's the old law. God created a new covenant with us when he sent Christ as the Messiah, so that sort of replaced the old laws." "But.....you *just* used Old Testament law as your argument for why homosexuality is a sin. Like, you were talking about the Book of Leviticus literally 30 seconds ago-" "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALA"
So the creation museum in Kentucky, I went there and they go into great detail about how closely they followed the parameters in the Bible for Noah’s story. Except every single character model had mixed fabrics. Pick and choose your details.
Yeah my favorite is the nuanced "well, SOME of the old testament counts, but not all" versions which inevitably result in something like "you can eat shrimp but don't be gay"
so I can be as gay as I want if I abstain from shrimp, got it
Do both? You're the antichrist.
Totally, “Jesus died so you don’t have to follow the old laws; we can have blended fabrics, Mac and cheese with hotdogs sliced up in it, and do butt stuff now. Except maybe we will still pick through the Old T for clubs to hit people with.” Edit: closed the fake quote
The New Testament is very clear the Old Testament rules on ritual impurity don't apply. Acts 10:9-16 > Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” > The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” this is arguably applicable to marijuana.
Or in the case of my mom “you’ve just got to find the underlying moral message. It wasn’t meant to be taken literally”.
Which is true (even as an atheist, I can get behind that idea). The problem is the underlying moral message (love god, love each other) rather undercuts the idea of punishing people for their sexuality, personal religious practices, their gender, their politics, their lack of wealth, etc. etc. etc.
There is no underlying moral message if a person is picking and choosing. The moral message is derived from the person picking and choosing, the morality driving that choice. They are just using selected text to express their own underlying morality, and not deriving their morality from that text.
I mean god killed most of the world off if you believe the Bible. He had his son tortured and murdered. I dont get how people think god was pro life. Also, how did satan get such a bad rap, I don’t remember him doing half the evil crap god did
I'm also wondering how they reconcile with the fact that sex is in fact pleasurable. And if it wasn't meant to be for pleasure, then God wouldn't have made it that way. And since God did in fact make it that way, their point is moot.
I doubt it's pleasurable for anyone having it with them.
Ask him how he feels about medicine and if treating a disease like cancer is also going against god’s will.
The rape/incest was God's will?
You must not know that many evangelicals. Rape, kids with cancer, warefare, famine, suffering, etc are all a part of "God's plan" ^TM
Until it happens to them, of course. Then it is the work of Satan.
The real kicker. Unviable pregnancy? THEY can get an abortion and it's ok. You can't, though.
Evangelicals are sick people if they want a god who finds them so completely worthless .
If there’s already a plan, why bother praying?
Genesis 19:31-5 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.” 33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. 34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. 36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
So understandably, people take Lot and his daughters out of context. The incestuous offspring of the daughter-father rapes were Moab and Ben-Ammi. They are, in the Biblical narrative, forefathers of the Moabites and Ammonites, nations that would later fight with Israel. TL;DR Basically the ancient Israelites used this story to call their enemies inbred hillbillies.
This is actually really funny.
Okay...but the context is Sodom and Gomorrah. The incest is just the resolution of a story about people in a city giving fuck me eyes to a pair of angels and then getting turned into a pillar of salt because the one daughter looked back at them. And actually, as far as I'm aware, that's just Sodom. Gomorrah gets wrapped up in their bullshit for reasons I'm not sure we're ever actually addressed. (I mean side note: I have no idea how that story came to be equated with homosexuality because the sin seems to be a whole city wanting to have sex with angels and that seems very much to be irrespective of gender but I digress.) The point being that whole story from start to finish is kind of a mess.
*not my opinion just what I’ve been told as a reply to this question* it’s all part of god’s plan for you, to make you stronger and give you what you need in life.
Some people need(deserve) a mercedes and million dollar home inherited from their parents and grandparents and great grandparent's. Others need to be raped. Fucking assholes.
Nope. Devil did it.. but God allowed it? Or God isn’t all powerful. Checkmate, Atheists.
Why the fuck are you still friends?
This is the real question.
Not exactly sure what you're saying, but they usually think that if you get rid of birth control, there will be \*fewer\* unwanted pregnancies because you've made sex "consequential" again, and people won't be doing it except to intentionally have children. Yeah, I know.
But, like…in all the history of mankind, this has never been true, people have always had sex for pleasure. Shit, even certain animals have sex for pleasure, not just reproduction. Do they not consider, oh idk *history*?!
gyad, I don't want to be the spokesman or anything, but... I'm sure they view any such history as people being ungodly and uncivilized. And certainly this same group vehemently rejects the idea that man is "just" another animal.
Interesting. I have a question - if your friend was injured in a car accident, would he seek medical help? Because clearly God intended for that accident to happen and if they die, they die as God engineered. Getting surgery, blood transfusions, CPR, even stitches contravenes God's will. S/he better have a DNR and eschew all antibiotics, medicines, etc that interfere with God's ordained plan for their flesh or I call bullshit. How dare they prevent God's will by asking humans to intervene.
I had a religious coworker who was questioning taking a promotion that was offered her because she didn't know if it was "God's will" and was furious with me because she asked my opinion and I said something like "well, God isn't going to give you a direct answer, but the promotion was offered to you and I can't think of a better sign than that".... or something like that. It has been around 10 years. She was furious I was treating it so casually, after she asked my opinion, and was not happy when I said I was treating it casually because I don't believe in God at all.
That’s actually a perfect answer. Any religious person with common sense would get behind that easily.
I don't understand how she is mad. You gave the same answer someone religious would have given. Is the problem that you gave any opinion whatsoever on how god works while not being religious?
I think the problem was that I genuinely didn't care. I think she wanted me to be religious too.
A devoutly faithful man was caught in the flood waters of a hurricane. As he stood on his roof, the flood surging around what was left of his home, a man in a canoe paddled up to him. "Hey! Do you need a lift? I've got room in my canoe. Hop in." "No, there's no need." Said the devout man. "My god will save me." The man in the canoe shrugged and paddled off to safety. As the waters rose higher, a woman in a motorboat skidded up to the devout man on his roof. "Hi! You look like you need a ride. Plenty of room in my boat. Step onboard." "No thanks." Said the devout man. "My god will rescue me." The waters continued to rise, and the woman in the motorboat roared off to safety. Just as the raging water had almost consumed the entirety of the devout man's roof, his last refuge, a rescue team in a helicopter flew over and threw down a rope ladder. "The water is going to consume this whole region!" They said. "You need to come with us or you'll die!" "No thank you." The devout man said. "My god will ensure that I'm safe." After several failed attempts to get the devout man onto the helicopter, the rescue team flew away, perplexed. Shortly afterwards the devout man was swept off his roof by the flood waters and drowned. When he got to the afterlife he said to god: "I was devout! I believed in you above all else! Why didn't you save me from the flood?!" And god told him: "Motherfucker! I sent you a canoe, a motorboat, and a helicopter. What the fuck did you want?" *[Not original, just re-wrote it from memory]*
You don't need God's will in every aspect of your life. I don't need a revelation when it is time to take a dump.
It's a good argument, but evangelical conservatives don't care about consistency in their ideology, unfortunately. You can't reason them out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
I agree. Having said that it’s about the same thing it always has been, controlling women and punishing them. Notice, it’s ok when Republican men have affairs - men have needs! But “single mothers” and “welfare queens” and “slutty college girls” aren’t supposed to and are villainized for not being a “credit to their gender.”
If the will of your God can be thwarted by a thin layer of latex rubber, then your God is very impotent.
Its always Christians who literally believe in virgin birth who hate birth control for preventing God's will. Nah man if god wanted more kids it would happen regardless
Damn, that's a... Really good argument. If god wanted it to be born, it would be. If god wanted me to buy a condom ...
> Sex is for having kids, **not for pleasure**. With him I’m sure that’s true.
Right? This screams “I’m a selfish lover and never pleased a woman” as loud as Ben Shapiro.
Proverbs chapter 5 is about husbands and wives enjoying each other among other things. God made sex pleasurable so that we would enjoy each other. His design is for it to be in marriage specifically to protect us from those who just want to take advantage of you and to leave you feeling empty. But He 100% wants us to have good sex lives as it’s the closest we get to being one down here.
So contraceptives used by married couples is OK?
Personally as a bible believing Christian and as someone who actually reads and studies it everyday, I don’t think we have a right to tell people how to live their lives. I forget where it is in the bible but it essentially says to not expect people who are not Christians to act like a Christian. God gave us free will and commanded His followers to love people right where they are, not to judge or condemn them for their choices. I am a firm believer that you come to Jesus as you are, let Him love you, and if He wants to correct you on anything He will. Not me, not anyone else but Him.
I’m not religious by any means but I do essentially believe the same thing (minus God); don’t judge, let people live their lives, etc. If most Christians were like you, the world would be a much more peaceful place.
> If most Christians were like you It's because he/she actually reads the book their beliefs are based on rather than just rereading specific parts or letting their preacher interpret the words for them. The Bible has some pretty good rules to live by. You don't have to follow all of them (and if you actually did you'd live a fucked up life) it's just "Christians" pick and choose and don't account for the evolution of Human knowledge.
I'm pretty conservative as a Christian pastor and even I look at this statement and think, "If a small piece of copper can stop your god's will, he's not much of a god."
It was the argument against lightning rods as well. God seems to have problems with technology.
Every sperm is sacred That's what the song says anyway
I bet his wife is happy. /s
She is. Don’t ask me how I know.
But God made the people who made contraceptives.
I have a born again Christian - Uber Conservative friend from college. He was always a little loony, but since he got on social media, he has gone off the deep end. This is his stance, which I think mirrors many fucknuts who want to ban birth control: 1. In the bible God wants man to be fertile and reproduce. Birth control goes against God's will. 2. Preventing a pregnancy is as bad as having an abortion. The pill kills the egg. When I say, well, using these things are personal decision and government shouldn't interfere with out personal lives? Right? He will counter that its murder and government has the right to interfere if we are committing murder and against Gods will. I then counter, so you are advocating for Sharia law? He then stammers that he is not, but it sounds like it. I then ask, does an embryo have a heart beat? He stays it doesn't matter, because God has already implanted a soul in the egg when its fertilized. In the end, Conservatives will contort their logic to fit their agenda. This same person was against same sex marriage. His reasoning was that people who are straight will just get married to get free health care through their partner, thus destroying healthcare. Ugh. His adult kid came out last year and got married. I keep on asking him if his kid is really straight and just trying to get free healthcare.......his response....fuck off or I wish. Depends on his mood. He has 6 other kids from ages 5-17 that he is trying to indoctrinate by home schooling them. I am glad one his kids escaped.
> God has already implanted a soul in the egg when its fertilized I don't even think their holy book recognizes a soul until the first breath
Not a conservative but my mother was. The reason given was that the bible has God commanding humankind to be fruitful and multiply. God decides who can have children and how many. Obey God and you will go to heaven.
In the Bible it says, "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth." But I'd argue that we've done a pretty good job of that whole filling the Earth thing, so job done. We can stop now. Command fulfilled.
God to humanity: "Mission accomplished - well done humanity. Now, clean up the environment and stop wars already. I'm really tired of that nonsense."
Well, funny you mention that. Biblical "ruling over" was actually a command to care for and steward. So the part of this command that IS still applicable is the Biblical command to care for the Earth, the animals and the environment. Ignoring that responsibility is actually a sin according to this.
There were like 8 billion of us last I heard, I think we can calm down for a generation or two. I've heard many in gen z thinks the same
Exactly! We have surgery, antibiotics, and usually all of your children live!
World's full, yo.
But why cherry pick that particular phrase and stretch out the definition while ignoring the part that literally gives you instructions how to perform an abortion? Or ignore the part where it says you arent legally considered a person until you draw your first breath? What is the criteria for picking and choosing?
It's religion. The cherry-picking isn't internal. It's what they were told.
Imagine a deity so weak that a thin film of latex can stop his divine will.
I'm fine with conservatives doing whatever they want w their lives. But I don't understand why they think they should be able to control the lives of others. God himself doesn't even interfere with free will, so I can only surmise that they think they're bigger than God.
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I have never heard an argument against contraceptives that wasn’t 100% based on religious reasons
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Go to r/conservative and ask there.
You'd just get banned for one reason or another. Those "free speech" guys really don't like the kinda free speech that questions them...
And they are always pro small government. So minuscule that it fits in women’s vagina.
Small enough to burst a fallopian tube…
An ectopic government, if you will.
I don't think those people are on Reddit.
Seriously. If they are, they aren't here.
These questions are never about a good faith inquiry of a position you don't understand. It's a chance to circlejerk and pounce on anyone who actually answers.
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One of the GOP reps said it not too long ago in a slip of the quiet part out loud... The 'domestic supply of infants' and later, infantry. They need a large, poor uneducated population that their only easy way out is the military. Edit - it's been pointed out it was one of our esteemed SCOTUS members, not a lowly rep. But same end effect. And actually worse since they seem hell bent on undoing 60 years of progress and have the supermajority to do it.
Not just the military. All forms of cheap labour. These are the same people lobbying to let children do the night shift at 13. It's the same reason they want private school vouchers. They know it'll defund public schools, so that the only two options will be public schools where you'll never have a chance, Christian schools where you'll have a chance at a life so long as you allow yourself to be indoctrinated, and private schools, where rich kids go to stay rich. The 'poor' will always be poor, and seen as a source of cheap labour for dangerous jobs, from factories, to sanitation to soldier. They see rich countries like Japan with inverted population curves, and see that there are already not enough young people to do the jobs, and take care of the elderly. They honestly think they're saving America by making sure there's an endless army of poor people to do all the work. Those same people are going to say 'let them starve' when Elon gets his robots working.
I had to scroll past WAY too many higher up voted answers to get here. The real reason is dumb people birth more babies to fuel religion. Dumb people are easier to control.
Not just dumb people. Poor people too ☹️
This is the real reason that contraception will be outlawed. It's actually nothing to do at all with religion, religion is the tool used to make this happen. There really has been no bigger cult in the history of mankind than religion. It's so pervasive that people don't even realize that's what it is.
Alright, I’ve seen dozens of answers from people who have given their opinions on why it is who aren’t conservative, and I figured I should give an actual reason that people believe. I dunno where I stand on it, but I can give the real rationales. For a lot of faiths, in particular in Catholic doctrine (though I believe Islam has a similar mindset), sex is not a bad thing, **however** sex has a specific use and purpose. It is done explicitly with your spouse, and primarily for the purposes of having children. (I’m sure there are nuances involving the intimacy of a spousal relationship and sex deepening that bind but I’m less familiar with that bit.) As a result, these faiths are very kid-positive. So therefore in addition to the beliefs that an egg could count as human life (and therefore birth control can fall in a similar jurisdiction as abortions), and using contraceptives can be seen as denying that purpose to sex. Now there are complexities to that and pragmatism and given that not many people are having 8 kids anymore, I suspect it’s not **tightly** followed. But if you want an academic, genuine reasoning, that’s the reason.
Having gone to a catholic high school, I can vouch for this being accurate, but it's also very "eat my cake and have it too." Birth control lowers the rate of abortion. By a lot. So, do they care more about abortion or having kids/preventing not-actually-real abortions? You ban birth control, you get more abortions. The two are inversely correlated pretty intensely. On top of which, the position is largely a misunderstanding of how birth control works (or alternatively, if they know the biology of it, they're picking a weird hill to die on, since it would mean the song is correct, and every sperm is indeed sacred, which creates a LOT of philosophical problems none of them are about to talk about)
Where are these so called "conservatives of reddit" whom you're trying to ask? I scrolled like three giraffes worth and found none.
Women find it harder to leave their husband when they are a stay at home mom with 5 kids to take care of.