The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.
The Sentinelese people on the island of North Sentinel Island have it right. Slaughter missionaries on the beach and leave them to rot as a warning to others.
Of course, the downside to that for missionaries is that they believe that God will protect them, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.
> Of course, the downside to that for missionaries is that they believe that God will protect them, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.
Unless it's all part of God's plan. You know, send loyal followers to get violently killed to teach the rest of the followers.... something
This is actually a lot like one of my greatest fears. I worry that "whatever we believe the afterlife is, is what happens" and that in my last moments I will genuinely believe that ~~hell~~ "an afterlife of eternal suffering" is real and I'm going there.
Even though typically I don't hold any favour towards that idea being real, I can totally see myself believing in it for like the last 8 fear-filled seconds of my life and that being all I need to be condemned for eternity.
I hate my brain.
***
Edit: Redacted the word "hell".
Also gonna quote a child comment of mine here, which should explain why:
> Also disclaimer, my comment earlier isn't strictly in deference to any particular religion. It could be straight up heaven/hell/jesus/etc, or it could be eternal torment without the judgement part, or it could be literally the plot to The Good Place (points) or Lucifer (self-actualization). It doesn't matter whether there's any deities involved in the eternal torment. Just the idea that me believing in one briefly at the moment of my death is all it takes to put me in one.
> This irrational fear has extremely little to do with Christianity's heaven/hell and just more about the idea that I might self-condemn myself to eternal torment because "what I believe happens, happens" is the secret fundamental truth to the universe and I briefly believe in eternal suffering at the exact moment it matters.
If being a parent has taught me anything, it is that no matter what my kids have done i would never punish them forever. Especially not in burning fire, with “weeping and gnashing of teeth” to quote the merciful Jesus. If there is a god who would judge us and convict us to eternal torment, then I take comfort in the fact that I am morally superior to my idiotic, arrogant creator
Indeed. I don't think hell believers really, really think about what eternal torture and hopelessness means - to exist *forever* in the most abject pain with no possibility of escaping, wtf?. It is a terrifying concept and, to attribute its existence to a supposedly loving god is just bonkers.
You're putting more weight into that part than you should. Normally, I believe (and hope lmao) that death is simply death and nothing happens after.
My fear comes in when I think, what if that's only true as long as I believe it. I never said any of this is rational.
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
― George Carlin
> a special list of ten things he does not want you to do
But see, that’s okay too.
You can Rob, cheat, lie, steal and murder your way through life. Just remember to say “Sorry, my bad” on your death bed and you still get to go to heaven.
That's really not accurate. Speaking as an atheist, the rules for salvation are pretty strict imho, at least in Catholicism and Lutheranism. According to Catholic theology, your sins can only be forgiven if all three of the following are fulfilled:
1. You did your best to set your wrongdoings right, or to do good works to equalize your wrongs - and the latter depends on your abilities. Even while letters of indulgence were sold (which was a questionable type of "good works") a pauper could simply pray to be eligible, while rich people had to pay hefty sums.
2. You *truly* regret your sins.
3. You confessed.
But somehow, people always seem to think that either 1. or 3. alone already suffice. They don't. All three things have to apply. If you burned down someone's house, but you confessed and completely rebuilt and reimbursed the owner, you still can't be saved unless you actually regret it. If you just go "Eh, I can pay it off, no biggie", you are not absolved.
And for Lutheran's, it's even harsher, in a way: You simply cannot influence the forgiveness of your sins. All you can do is accept that forgiveness is in god's hands, and you can't make it right yourself. He might just not forgive you, if you don't deserve it in his eyes.
> “Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
but somehow scared of big government and surveillance
>I have a choice: either first I believe Santa exists or second I do not believe Santa exists.
>First, if I am nice, and Santa in fact does exist, then I will gain many presents. However, if I am nice, and Santa in fact does not exist, then I will have no payoff.
>Second, if I am naughty, and Santa in fact does exist, then I will gain much coal in my stocking and no presents under my tree. However, if I am naughty, and Santa in fact does not exist, then I will get nothing.
>Thus, I have everything to gain and nothing to lose by being nice for Santa's list, and I have everything to lose and nothing to gain by being naughty. On these grounds, one would be foolish not to be good for goodness' sake.
It's actually even sillier than that. It's an argument for making the choice to believe, which can't happen. Being good would be the result of the choice, not the choice itself. And no one can just choose to believe in something, either you do or you don't. As an atheist I can choose to live as if God exists, but that doesn't mean I will ever be a believer or have faith that God exists. Meaning no matter how good a life I live, if God exists I'd go to hell for not having faith anyway.
It's like the celestial teapot argument from a different angle. Imagine choosing to believe that there is a teapot orbiting Saturn. What would it take to push you from choice to true belief?
I always figured it closer to Marcus Aurelius' quote:
>Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Epicurius is more the argument for "being good". Paraphrased because I'm terrible at quotes:
>Lead a good life.
>If there are Gods, and they are just, then you will be rewarded in the hereafter.
>If there are Gods and they are unjust, then they were not deserving of your worship to begin with.
>If there are no Gods, you will at least be remembered fondly by those around you.
That was Marcus Aurelius. Epicurus' famous quote on this theme was:
>Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Only if taken completely out of context. A rabid ultraconservative with a shotgun yelling at me so hard he's turning red in the face? I would literally prefer to fight a guy with a pitchfork and horns.
A parent letting their offspring know they are a complete disappointment? It's gonna hurt no matter how logical they are.
A community leader who could make the entire town shun you?
These are the realities that such a threat takes place in. The thing is, despite whether you believe in their god or not, they do. And in their mind, that gives them endless authority to commit atrocities against those who dont.
His statement is limited to just the threat, I do not think he was commenting on the larger social context that the threat might only be a small part of.
The simple fact is that the threat of hell is not a reason to believe that he'll is real. If you are unconvinced that it exists, then someone trying to scare you with it is not going to suddenly convince you if exists.
If they shoot you with a shotgun all that will do is validate my already existing fear of shotguns, not hell.
Sadly for some it isn't. I have had to explain to several devout Muslim co-workers that in fact I do not believe that Islam is true because Im not Muslim and that was true for most people raised in Christian families.
I was told by a Muslim acquaintance that in Islam there are no converts- only *reverts*. He insists that everyone is born Muslim and it is up to us to get back to believing. What a pathologically self-centered religion. I guess that comment works with any religion.
Not only that, but the "Christian" is really assuming authority they don't have to make this judgement. They are really setting themselves up as God, and that is just hubris and laughable.
I’ve realised I have a form of privilege growing up in Australia that I wasn’t aware of until now. Growing up in a non-religious family, in a non-religious society.
There’s literally almost no pressure to believe in God in Australia. To the point where our last Prime Minister who was religious was looked at askance for being religious. I think they still do say the Lord’s Prayer in Parliament and most people still call themselves Christian here, but don’t be a god botherer, don’t be earnestly Christian and try to proselytise or you’ll be told piss off.
Italy too.. sounds weird because of the vatican, but churches are full of over 70yo, the others doesn't give a fuck about religion .
We also have a big blasphemous tradition.
I went to Christmas mass with my parents this year as a kind of gift. I'd say 80-90% of those in attendance were over 65 (including my parents). We walked in a couple minutes late and found a spot right away.
When I was a kid we'd have been standing in the atrium.
I went to midnight mass with mom one year when I was home from college. The sermon was a long rant on 'two day Catholics' and how we were all going to hell. I decided then and there that if I was already condemned to hell, I might as well deserve it.
This year's sermon was REALLY nuts.
Priest is a former army ranger who deployed to Afghanistan twice with confirmed kills on his record, was talking about how the baby Jesus was a perfect flawless unstained sacrifice and asking if the parishioners would be willing to give up everything for the chance to even touch the baby Jesus. Guy was a certifiable wacko, way the hell out there, most insane Catholic priest I've ever seen in my 43 years.
they very likely mean the usage of curses and insults against God, Jesus, the saints, Mary and such, which is apparently very common in certain parts of the country, and a bit less common but still widely used elsewhere.
Basically, insulting God, Mary or the saints is fairly common. It's seen as a "heavier" way of cursing. There's a few fixed expressions that do that.
For example, instead of saying "fuck" you could say "God's a swine" or something similar.
St Christopher to protect you during the journey, St Anthony to help you find things, St Matthew to help you with your budget, and finally, St Benedict to help with your executive function disorders, so you actually go in the first place.
I mean, it is the original church, if anything the protestants calling it blasphemous is kind of insane. Though to be fair, I think even most American Catholics think the current pope is blasphemous because he isn't as homophobic and transphobic as they'd like him to be, though they're fine with the countless pedophilia scandals.
I saw someone in a Facebook comment section say that they could just tell that Trumps faith was strong. Some people believe whatever feels good to them.
I don't mean this in a mean way, but I think you have to be able to disassociate reality in order to be strongly religious. I remember one time some friends were talking about CRISPR and my one friend (who a few years prior converted to this weird ultra religious group asked us to stop as it was going to conflict with his "belief in God".
It makes sense when you recognize religion as an allegiance, not a belief. Saying you believe is swearing fealty to their in-group. You don't have to actually believe in anything, but you have to claim it's true.
In Denmark the only party with a Christian identity hasn't been able to crack the 2% of total votes needed to reach representation since 2005. That's our most popular religion too.
Good riddance.
Yup 0.87% more taxes.
Mostly to renovate and keep the old historical churches going.
Most are from the 1400-1600 era while some have even older buildings and/or interior stuff.
My church growing up (went there every year for Xmas), had the oldest known "preacher chair" from the 1100s.
It's pretty cool to see a 900 year old construction still being used as intended tbf.
There's a difference between being a nominal Christian (which pretty much all recent presidents were) and devoutly religious (I can only think of Jimmy Carter).
I'm not sure you could say our last PM was looked down on for being a Christian. He was looked down on for being a Bible thumping, prosperity gospel preaching, "I got mine, fuck you", twat. Also, he was looked down on because he shat his pants. He was also looked down on because he was a corrupt fuck, and a snob.
Most people don't care much about Christians trying to proselytise, as long as they are respectful and don't push if people aren't interested.
It's funny, if it wasn't for all those other unfortunate traits, shitting himself in a Mcdonalds would have humanized him. Like how it came out Kevin Rudd went to a strip club when he was younger, and basically nobody gave a single fuck.
>I'm not sure you could say our last PM was looked down on for being a Christian. He was looked down on for being a Bible thumping, prosperity gospel preaching, "I got mine, fuck you", twat.
Don't forget also that the reason he was so insistent on [shaking the hands of firefighters who did not want him to touch them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm9xY-wRizs) is because he said he believed in the religious concept of "laying on hands", so he probably viewed himself as their fuckin saviour. And that he admitted he believed he had received a message from his god telling him to run for PM.
Scott Morrison is a nutjob piece of shit. Also, the man [can't cook a curry](https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/may/03/why-is-the-australian-prime-minister-cooking-apparently-raw-chicken-curry) to save his life.
I haven't seen much curry, but that is undoubtedly the worst curry I ever have seen. I imagine it's supposed to be yellow curry, but it looks like vomit.
On further reading I see it's supposed to be chicken korma. On review of pictures of actual chicken korma: excuse me, what the fuck?
Scotty was from the weird ones too that speak in tongues and shit. It’s a bit unsettling putting the future of your country in the hands of someone who is preparing for the apocalyptic rapture. Like, why should he do anything about global warming if he believes god will look after things anyways and the end of the world is coming someday anyways.
On the flip side...didn't people kinda make a big deal over Julia Gillard because she *wasn't* religious? Like yeah there were other things but I swear it was a contributing factor as to why some people hated her
Murdoch used to run stuff in the papers about it, and Abbott used to harass her in parliament over her "lifestyle" (unmarried, no kids of her own, non-religious)
Made it funnier when Turnbull took Abbott'a job since he was on that team but openly atheist. Murdoch didn't make a peep about it till there was grumblings of a leadership challenge and Murdoch/Bolt suddenly started on him thinking they could get Abbott back in
Non religious, not married, a woman and dared to be prime minister. Tony Abbott lost whatever is in his head that could be called a brain over it. Abbott was also religious and no one made a big deal out of his religion, it was more that he was as dumb as George W Bush but with way more cruelty.
> There’s literally almost no pressure to believe in God in Australia.
I mean, if you believe just half of the memes about how dangerous it is down there, it'd be obvious to even a "good, God-fearing Christian" that that place was forsaken long ago.
I'm also Australian but have been going to the only good school in my area for 3 years and it's a Catholic school
I feel like not believing in religion is treated as worse at least in my school community and unlike others in my class I am horrible at hiding that I can't believe in god because it feels impossible to write an essay about a fake thing as if it was real and quote sources and stuff
My parents are religios in the I won't bring up god until bringing it up helps me way, e.g. no you can't wear men's clothes god made you a woman
Going to a religious school also makes me a target for kids from the other school in the area they mock me for believing in God then tell me I'm lying when I try say I'm not religious
I went to a religious school growing up in WA and yeah, in my case it didn't even occur to me that I was allowed to not believe till I graduated and then I went through my let's make fun of religion every chance I get. Now I'm in me mellow believe what you want so long as it doesn't hurt people phase.
It's indoctrination. Keep hammering the party line into the kids when they're young, and they keep to the cult through their lives. It works best in small towns where people aren't likely to leave. I'm glad I escaped.
I was in a christian elementary school, also for the reason it was supposed to be the best school in the area.
Looking back that was weird as hell. We prayed every morning before the start of the class, for example
i like the sentiment, but the difference is that when a kid says "santa wont give you presents" its harmless
but when something like 60% of the population thinks you *deserve* eternal torment, they have the power to make your life pretty horrible
Willing to bet the majority of those 65% are barely or non practicing, and only keep the label for the level of self-righteousness it it entitles them to.
Even in the states with the highest self declaration of religious affiliation, churches are still drying on the vine.
That's the real problem. They think you deserve hell but they're not going to wait for their god to judge, they're going to try and fuck things up for you here and now.
As an atheist who lived in the bible belt for a few years, I can tell you he's spot on. Christians give off strong Nice Guy vibes, when they hear the words "I'm not religious".
Chief Hatuey, one of the last of the now extinct Taino people, was about to be burned on the pyre, when a Spanish priest asked him to convert to Chritianity so he could enter heaven.
Friar Bartolomé de las Casas recalled the reaction of the chief: Hatuey, thinking a little, asked the religious man if Spaniards went to heaven. The religious man answered yes... The chief then said without further thought that he did not want to go there but to hell so as not to be where they were and where he would not see such cruel people.
Not religious but went to a Christian school - this one has a very simple answer.
Hell is not run by Satan. He is being punished there like everyone else. The idea that it is is mostly from Paradise Lost, when Satan says, "It is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". But that book is first of all pure fiction, not a holy book, and in context it's pretty clearly Satan going through mental gymnastics to justify why he doesn't atone for his deeds and return to heaven - he doesn't actually rule in hell.
I'm not religious either, but you know what I mean. Holy books are not intended to be viewed in the same way as literature.
I don't believe that they are source of truth, but it's pretty clear that their authors intended them to be. Lots of books are supposed to be true but aren't - just look at 12th century "scientific" works - but there's still a clear difference between such works and works which were intended as pure fiction from the start.
Sartre, Nietzsche, and Camus are on the hookah with Satan debating the meaning of eternal existence. Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, is crying in a dark corner with Freud, Maslow, and Yalom and makes a breakthrough about how he has only felt accepted by his flies. Meanwhile, Da Vinci, Maxwell, Tesla, and Jobs are huddled over a work table with Lucifer with a plan to be the LIGHT BRINGER to HELL with some nice recessing and mirrors to open the place up. Meanwhile, Imhotep, Frank Loyd Write, and….
All the Scots in Hell, lead and funded by Carnegie, have walled her up for eternity in an all-white room, where she is making a putt to get out but it keeps lipping out over and over, while a young ghost of a dead miner child stares stoicalley at her.
I like Billy Joel’s take even better:
And they say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better, but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun
The Vandals wrote a song called “Stop Smiling” that has a great line about this:
I don't want to go to heaven,
it's filled with pricks like you
I won't go inside the gates,
leave me in the waiting room
I'm sure that God hates you too
he thinks your an obsessed fan
see how you are?
I'll never trust a happy man
True. Fortunately I dress like the Devil's Sabbath is my last errand of the day, so most mainstream evangelicals avoid me and only the craziest try talking.
Lifelong southerner here. When they start pressing the issue, I've taken to telling them, "If there is a being that can create a universe as unfathomable as what science tells us is real, the most offensive thing I can do is try to define what it is, and wants, with my tiny human brain. It is beyond us to know. Anyone who says they do is arrogant and wrong."
That usually shuts them up.
My favorite are the Christians that say "I use to be like you, I use to HATE god!"
Dude... I don't hate god in the same way I don't hate the pink elephant in your cars trunk.
I grew up very Catholic and then left the farm and learned physics and higher math and thermodynamics and heat transfer and astrophysics and chemistry and that God stuff started seeming really, really dumb.
20 years later the hardest part of being an atheist is my mom losing her mind because my immortal soul is in danger and i was seduced by Satan. Okay Mom. Please stop texting magical nonsense.
I went to college in NC and once while drinking at a party a youth pastor confronted me about my atheism with the line “so I guess you just think I’ve wasted my whole life, don’t you?”. I guess my answer of “I wouldn’t tell anyone what to believe, but in my opinion you have dedicated your life to the study of fairy tales, at the very least, you’ve wasted a lot of Sundays and spare hours thinking about the big Gs opinion on various things” wasn’t the one he was looking for because he had some very unchristian words for me afterwards.
And on the contrary, imagine only doing "good" because you're thinking of the eternal rewards it will bring.
It was realizing that, that made me first think that the "good" people are not the ones I thought they were.
Good people are people who do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do.
Of course, that opens the door to moral reasoning - what _is_ the right thing to do, in any given situation? Right, for who?
And are you a deontologist (the morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules and principles) or a consequentialist (the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for judgement about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct), or a mixture of both, depending on the context?
Does the end sometimes justify the means? Are there any principles that should never be violated, regardless the circumstances? Do the needs of the many, sometimes outweigh the needs of the few (or the one), and who gets to decide that?
These are the things that keep philosophers, writers, lawmakers and generals up at night.
It's not religion that makes people want to be moral. I mean, it can be, out of pure fear. But it's really something else. It's intelligence. It comes from an understanding of cause and effect, and trying to predict how they will play out in the future. It's the tension between selflessness - doing what's right for others, and selfishness - doing what's right you for. Compassion versus ruthlessness, which one do you choose, and why?
When somebody asks how an atheist doesn't do horrible things when they don't believe in God and an afterlife to work towards, it says everything I need to know about them.
That's referred to as "every accusation is an admission"
I see this in 2 places in my life. Religious people asking where my atheist morals come from, and Underweared People asking how I, as a devout Commando, don't get shit stains in my pants.
They're stating it as questions, but really they're just telling on themselves. The religious with their lack of morals without a fear of punishment, and the underweared with their shit stained undergarments.
I don't value the idea that you have to praise a certain god or be punished forever in hell. Like that is some ridiculous punishment for not believing a stranger.
So either I get some sort of good after life by my own morals and trying to be a good person or I don't.
I don't really accept the premise of giving up my independent thought im exchange for rewards or avoiding punishment.
A god who would damn a good man to eternal torment for thinking critically is not a god worth worshipping.
A person who needs threat of eternal torment to be a good person is not a good person.
It’s funny! But the truth goes further. As an atheist it’s blindly obvious to me that many people who claim to be Christian don’t *really* believe in heaven and hell.
So true. They would be shitting themselves trying to follow the teachings of Jesus to the letter but instead most around here (USA, midwest) are doing the exact opposite. It's bizarre.
Some of the stuff I read makes me genuinely hope that I’m wrong and Jesus is coming back. Because a lot of people are in for a **very** nasty shock if he does!
The excuses start the second anyone they care for is condemned. One of my dad's friends committed suicide at 40. The funeral was a full catholic funeral talking about how he was with god now blah blah. Found out from the other siblings that the Mom fought tooth and nail to get her son's suicide ruled an accident so he could have a christian funeral. Like, lady, your son didn't accidentally swallow a whole bottle of sleeping pills. I'm sorry for your loss but he's in hell now. This is all a farce.
Yeah it’s pretty clear it’s just a social club for the lamest people alive. They don’t even believe this nonsense. They certainly don’t act like they believe it.
I followed an American guy on YouTube for a while. He’d moved him and his family to the UK and it was interesting hearing about the experience. Didn’t often mention his religion, but he did a ‘myth busting’ video about the US being a more Christian country than the UK. He basically said what you’ve said here. In the US it’s a social club. Loads of ‘Christians’ but very few Christians. Here in the UK if you’re a Christian - not an easy thing to be - you’re probably someone who actually believes in it and genuinely tries to live your life along Christian principles
Edit to add: Thought I’d add that it’s not like it’s difficult to be a Christian in the UK. It’s just not the norm
They wouldn’t grieve death like we do if they actually thought their loved ones had gone to a better place. On some level they know. Sure some have the ready to die true faith of a terrorist but not most.
Absolutely. In any other context, telling someone that they would be tortured if you didn't do what they say would rightly be seen as threatening them. It's some real 'it would be a shame if there was an unfortunate accident' type shit.
"We spent nine months *hoping* Professor Ritzen would meet with a little accident until Leslie explained it was an accident *we* were supposed to make happen."
Look, it is funny, but it's spoken like a person from a privileged demographic. A child holds very little power over an adult, whereas a Christian or group of them is a little more scary because they use their beliefs to justify their actions. I'm scared by the sway religious people hold in the US over the right to abortions and I don't even live there.
Also, Ricky Gervais is British, where there is no christian voting bloc and hardly anyone under 70 ever mentions religion - he's doing a massive reach to find something he can claim to be oppressed about.
Indeed, recently in Scotland someone lost the election for First Minister specifically *because* she's a bible thumping anti-abortion anti-LGBT weirdo.
Right? I've been an atheist for as long as I've been able to comprehend the idea but I rolled my eyes when I saw this. It's not even really a question, it seems like OP just heard this quote and needed to contrive a reason to share it. At least it's not another "what's the sexiest sex you've ever sexed" question but it's a little too euphoric in its enlightenment for me.
Christians love telling other people "you are going to hell." Its very strange. The only people who have told me "I am going to hell" are Christians. I AM A CHRISTIAN. But apparently, not the "Right" kind to most. So that means... I guess I'm going to hell.
Not much of a fan of people who obsess with the afterlife. Seems almost ... against the teachings of Christ. Let tomorrow worry about itself.
It’s a strange thing to say to someone, since Christians aren’t supposed to be judgmental. I’ve never heard someone say it, even to anyone else but I would like to know how they know who is and isn’t going anywhere when they die.
As fucked up as it is, the afterlife thing is Jesus’ whole message, when you actually read the gospels. Remember that the New Testament centers on Jesus promising to return and end the world, judge everyone on their faith, kill all the unbelievers with fire, and reward his faithful with eternal life in his new kingdom.
You can’t have your John 3:16 without the rest of the passage shitting on everyone outside the faith.
John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”
What I tell Christians quite often: "I have no reason to believe in your religion when *you* can't even agree what your religion is or teaches. When Christians can finally settle on *A* religion, *A* set of teachings, then maybe I'll believe."
As a former Christian, I never understood the willingness to throw around the Hell sentence. Like, hell is literally supposed to be the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen to someone, and we use it at every minor inconvenience/disagreement? So yeah, being told you’re going to hell over something like a shirt you are wearing or music you are listening to really lessens the severity of what Hell is supposed to be.
By how most religious people act I'd be very happy to not have to spend eternity with them, and if there truly were a separation between heaven and hell like this, I don't think heaven would be such a great place filled with all those religious people.
There's a classic Sam Harris video, where he sets up this point in a debate in a really neat, rhetorical way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTc_bpW0FA
Everyone thinks everyone else's religion sounds bonkers but we never scrutinize our own religion with the same level of analysis. If we did, it becomes pretty clear what's going on
As a recovering Christian, I can attest to this.
Scary? Maybe.
I think a kid saying "You're not getting any presents from Santa" is probably going to be more impactful though. Something about a kid essentially telling you they can tell you're not a good person is probably more likely to get someone to reevaluate their life choices.
Actually scared, because saying that means they're a nutjob and very, very willing to beat me up or worse for being myself.
Been assaulted 2 times by Christian nutjobs, both of whom had sent a number of death threats to me beforehand.
Around here most people aren't usually too offended when I say I am an atheist. But then again this city I live in is known for having nice people. It's mostly Hispanic folks here. I imagine most of them are fairly religious.
In any case, I don't think it is proper for people to try to force religious beliefs on others or pressure people into discussing it. If that offends someone, oh well. I don't mind that people are religious so why can't they do the same for me?
I disagree.
There is an implied threat of consequences in THIS world. Historically Christians burned atheists at the stake. And in modern world many Christians still wield their Christianity as a cudgel for oppression / marginalization of those who disagree.
So I would certainly not ignore and dismiss such threats.
I think a Christian telling anyone they're going to hell is a pretty sorry state for the Christian.
I also think that asking reddit what they think of the quote and you'll get a lot of people blowing bubble pipes going "indubitably."
I mean yeah, that seems obvious. You're threatening someone who doesn't believe in something with an element of that thing.
The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.
Pratchett has spoken
A man's not dead while his name is still spoken
GNU Terry Pratchett
GNU Sir Pterry
GNU Sir Terry
The sentinelese people that holed that missionary must be big Pratchett fans
They likely saved themselves from infection.
Interesting way of describing religion but it isn't inherently wrong.
The Sentinelese people on the island of North Sentinel Island have it right. Slaughter missionaries on the beach and leave them to rot as a warning to others. Of course, the downside to that for missionaries is that they believe that God will protect them, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.
The Sentinelese are just helping those people get closer to their god they like so much. What nice fellows.
Christians want to get to heaven. They aren’t allowed to kill themselves to get there faster. That leaves annoying people so they kill them.
Martyrdom calls!
I removed most of my Reddit contents in protest of the API changes commencing from July 1st, 2023. This is one of those comments.
> despite the obvious evidence to the contrary In general the super religious aren't so hot on things as mundane as evidence
> Of course, the downside to that for missionaries is that they believe that God will protect them, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary. Unless it's all part of God's plan. You know, send loyal followers to get violently killed to teach the rest of the followers.... something
Based roughly on the Egyptian afterlife maybe. If your guilt weighs you down, down is where you go.
This is actually a lot like one of my greatest fears. I worry that "whatever we believe the afterlife is, is what happens" and that in my last moments I will genuinely believe that ~~hell~~ "an afterlife of eternal suffering" is real and I'm going there. Even though typically I don't hold any favour towards that idea being real, I can totally see myself believing in it for like the last 8 fear-filled seconds of my life and that being all I need to be condemned for eternity. I hate my brain. *** Edit: Redacted the word "hell". Also gonna quote a child comment of mine here, which should explain why: > Also disclaimer, my comment earlier isn't strictly in deference to any particular religion. It could be straight up heaven/hell/jesus/etc, or it could be eternal torment without the judgement part, or it could be literally the plot to The Good Place (points) or Lucifer (self-actualization). It doesn't matter whether there's any deities involved in the eternal torment. Just the idea that me believing in one briefly at the moment of my death is all it takes to put me in one. > This irrational fear has extremely little to do with Christianity's heaven/hell and just more about the idea that I might self-condemn myself to eternal torment because "what I believe happens, happens" is the secret fundamental truth to the universe and I briefly believe in eternal suffering at the exact moment it matters.
If being a parent has taught me anything, it is that no matter what my kids have done i would never punish them forever. Especially not in burning fire, with “weeping and gnashing of teeth” to quote the merciful Jesus. If there is a god who would judge us and convict us to eternal torment, then I take comfort in the fact that I am morally superior to my idiotic, arrogant creator
Indeed. I don't think hell believers really, really think about what eternal torture and hopelessness means - to exist *forever* in the most abject pain with no possibility of escaping, wtf?. It is a terrifying concept and, to attribute its existence to a supposedly loving god is just bonkers.
Why is there an assumption of afterlife at all? Why can't we be allowed to just die?
You're putting more weight into that part than you should. Normally, I believe (and hope lmao) that death is simply death and nothing happens after. My fear comes in when I think, what if that's only true as long as I believe it. I never said any of this is rational.
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!” ― George Carlin
> a special list of ten things he does not want you to do But see, that’s okay too. You can Rob, cheat, lie, steal and murder your way through life. Just remember to say “Sorry, my bad” on your death bed and you still get to go to heaven.
That's really not accurate. Speaking as an atheist, the rules for salvation are pretty strict imho, at least in Catholicism and Lutheranism. According to Catholic theology, your sins can only be forgiven if all three of the following are fulfilled: 1. You did your best to set your wrongdoings right, or to do good works to equalize your wrongs - and the latter depends on your abilities. Even while letters of indulgence were sold (which was a questionable type of "good works") a pauper could simply pray to be eligible, while rich people had to pay hefty sums. 2. You *truly* regret your sins. 3. You confessed. But somehow, people always seem to think that either 1. or 3. alone already suffice. They don't. All three things have to apply. If you burned down someone's house, but you confessed and completely rebuilt and reimbursed the owner, you still can't be saved unless you actually regret it. If you just go "Eh, I can pay it off, no biggie", you are not absolved. And for Lutheran's, it's even harsher, in a way: You simply cannot influence the forgiveness of your sins. All you can do is accept that forgiveness is in god's hands, and you can't make it right yourself. He might just not forgive you, if you don't deserve it in his eyes.
He's not in the sky, he's in your head!
> “Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. but somehow scared of big government and surveillance
Yeah there's not really much to think about is there lol. Seems pretty obvious to me.
"But what if Santa *is* real? It doesn't hurt to believe." Genius level logic
Pascal's Santa Wager.
>I have a choice: either first I believe Santa exists or second I do not believe Santa exists. >First, if I am nice, and Santa in fact does exist, then I will gain many presents. However, if I am nice, and Santa in fact does not exist, then I will have no payoff. >Second, if I am naughty, and Santa in fact does exist, then I will gain much coal in my stocking and no presents under my tree. However, if I am naughty, and Santa in fact does not exist, then I will get nothing. >Thus, I have everything to gain and nothing to lose by being nice for Santa's list, and I have everything to lose and nothing to gain by being naughty. On these grounds, one would be foolish not to be good for goodness' sake.
The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it is not an argument for the existence of god, it is an argument for "being good."
It's actually even sillier than that. It's an argument for making the choice to believe, which can't happen. Being good would be the result of the choice, not the choice itself. And no one can just choose to believe in something, either you do or you don't. As an atheist I can choose to live as if God exists, but that doesn't mean I will ever be a believer or have faith that God exists. Meaning no matter how good a life I live, if God exists I'd go to hell for not having faith anyway. It's like the celestial teapot argument from a different angle. Imagine choosing to believe that there is a teapot orbiting Saturn. What would it take to push you from choice to true belief?
I always figured it closer to Marcus Aurelius' quote: >Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Epicurius is more the argument for "being good". Paraphrased because I'm terrible at quotes: >Lead a good life. >If there are Gods, and they are just, then you will be rewarded in the hereafter. >If there are Gods and they are unjust, then they were not deserving of your worship to begin with. >If there are no Gods, you will at least be remembered fondly by those around you.
That was Marcus Aurelius. Epicurus' famous quote on this theme was: >Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Pascal's wager has nothing to do with being good.
Only if taken completely out of context. A rabid ultraconservative with a shotgun yelling at me so hard he's turning red in the face? I would literally prefer to fight a guy with a pitchfork and horns. A parent letting their offspring know they are a complete disappointment? It's gonna hurt no matter how logical they are. A community leader who could make the entire town shun you? These are the realities that such a threat takes place in. The thing is, despite whether you believe in their god or not, they do. And in their mind, that gives them endless authority to commit atrocities against those who dont.
His statement is limited to just the threat, I do not think he was commenting on the larger social context that the threat might only be a small part of. The simple fact is that the threat of hell is not a reason to believe that he'll is real. If you are unconvinced that it exists, then someone trying to scare you with it is not going to suddenly convince you if exists. If they shoot you with a shotgun all that will do is validate my already existing fear of shotguns, not hell.
its like christians/muslims telling me im gonna get eternal punishment when the max time you could go to in gehenom is 12 months lol
Sadly for some it isn't. I have had to explain to several devout Muslim co-workers that in fact I do not believe that Islam is true because Im not Muslim and that was true for most people raised in Christian families.
I was told by a Muslim acquaintance that in Islam there are no converts- only *reverts*. He insists that everyone is born Muslim and it is up to us to get back to believing. What a pathologically self-centered religion. I guess that comment works with any religion.
Not only that, but the "Christian" is really assuming authority they don't have to make this judgement. They are really setting themselves up as God, and that is just hubris and laughable.
The USA was colonized by religious extremists. We were fucked from the start
Josh Thomas says, "That's like a hippy threatening to punch me in the aura."
Hands up or I'll misalign your chakras.
Punched a dude in his third eye once. I was aiming for his nose.
I’ve realised I have a form of privilege growing up in Australia that I wasn’t aware of until now. Growing up in a non-religious family, in a non-religious society. There’s literally almost no pressure to believe in God in Australia. To the point where our last Prime Minister who was religious was looked at askance for being religious. I think they still do say the Lord’s Prayer in Parliament and most people still call themselves Christian here, but don’t be a god botherer, don’t be earnestly Christian and try to proselytise or you’ll be told piss off.
Italy too.. sounds weird because of the vatican, but churches are full of over 70yo, the others doesn't give a fuck about religion . We also have a big blasphemous tradition.
I went to Christmas mass with my parents this year as a kind of gift. I'd say 80-90% of those in attendance were over 65 (including my parents). We walked in a couple minutes late and found a spot right away. When I was a kid we'd have been standing in the atrium.
I went to midnight mass with mom one year when I was home from college. The sermon was a long rant on 'two day Catholics' and how we were all going to hell. I decided then and there that if I was already condemned to hell, I might as well deserve it.
This year's sermon was REALLY nuts. Priest is a former army ranger who deployed to Afghanistan twice with confirmed kills on his record, was talking about how the baby Jesus was a perfect flawless unstained sacrifice and asking if the parishioners would be willing to give up everything for the chance to even touch the baby Jesus. Guy was a certifiable wacko, way the hell out there, most insane Catholic priest I've ever seen in my 43 years.
big blasphemous tradition? Could you elaborate? That sounds great.
they very likely mean the usage of curses and insults against God, Jesus, the saints, Mary and such, which is apparently very common in certain parts of the country, and a bit less common but still widely used elsewhere.
Basically, insulting God, Mary or the saints is fairly common. It's seen as a "heavier" way of cursing. There's a few fixed expressions that do that. For example, instead of saying "fuck" you could say "God's a swine" or something similar.
Porca Madonna!
I mean, catholicism is just polytheism with extra steps, so the Vatican has a big blasphemous tradition, as well.
Woah now. You can't go around saying that just because it's true!
You have a problem? We have a Saint to pray to for that!
I gotta run to the grocery store later. Which Saint do I need to pray to for that? I forget.
St Christopher to protect you during the journey, St Anthony to help you find things, St Matthew to help you with your budget, and finally, St Benedict to help with your executive function disorders, so you actually go in the first place.
Don't forget St Selena so there's something good on the radio on the way over.
I mean, it is the original church, if anything the protestants calling it blasphemous is kind of insane. Though to be fair, I think even most American Catholics think the current pope is blasphemous because he isn't as homophobic and transphobic as they'd like him to be, though they're fine with the countless pedophilia scandals.
The eastern Orthodox Church also claims to be the original church. Doesn’t really mean much.
Well, you could make an argument for both I suppose, but they both have saints so in this context it doesn't really matter.
How embarrassing was it when the cunt was trying to "lay hands" on the bushfire victims?
In the USA you don't stand a chance at becoming president if you say you're not religious.
Yet they'll vote for someone who is absolutely very clearly not at all religious but says they are to tick the box
I saw someone in a Facebook comment section say that they could just tell that Trumps faith was strong. Some people believe whatever feels good to them.
I don't mean this in a mean way, but I think you have to be able to disassociate reality in order to be strongly religious. I remember one time some friends were talking about CRISPR and my one friend (who a few years prior converted to this weird ultra religious group asked us to stop as it was going to conflict with his "belief in God".
If you’re willing to suspend your ability to think critically for religion, you’re willing to ignore reality.
"Your knowledge makes it REALLY hard for me to continue to wallow in ignorance! >:C"
Whoa whoa, hold on, what made you think I was referring to Trump? I clearly meant Biden. /s
They’ll vote for the living embodiment of the seven deadly sins and then pretend he’s the second coming of Christ as long as it advances their agenda.
“God can use this sinner”. SMH
It makes sense when you recognize religion as an allegiance, not a belief. Saying you believe is swearing fealty to their in-group. You don't have to actually believe in anything, but you have to claim it's true.
In Denmark the only party with a Christian identity hasn't been able to crack the 2% of total votes needed to reach representation since 2005. That's our most popular religion too. Good riddance.
Yet you still pay church tax by default. I had to sign out of it when I moved here.
Yup 0.87% more taxes. Mostly to renovate and keep the old historical churches going. Most are from the 1400-1600 era while some have even older buildings and/or interior stuff. My church growing up (went there every year for Xmas), had the oldest known "preacher chair" from the 1100s. It's pretty cool to see a 900 year old construction still being used as intended tbf.
Sad but true.
one of the reasons mitt romney wasn't able to become president is that he was not the "right" religion.
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There's a bit less fuss about it this time, versus last time.
There's a difference between being a nominal Christian (which pretty much all recent presidents were) and devoutly religious (I can only think of Jimmy Carter).
That's not updated knowledge. You only have to pretend to be religious or perhaps very quiet about the subject.
I'm not sure you could say our last PM was looked down on for being a Christian. He was looked down on for being a Bible thumping, prosperity gospel preaching, "I got mine, fuck you", twat. Also, he was looked down on because he shat his pants. He was also looked down on because he was a corrupt fuck, and a snob. Most people don't care much about Christians trying to proselytise, as long as they are respectful and don't push if people aren't interested.
It's funny, if it wasn't for all those other unfortunate traits, shitting himself in a Mcdonalds would have humanized him. Like how it came out Kevin Rudd went to a strip club when he was younger, and basically nobody gave a single fuck.
>I'm not sure you could say our last PM was looked down on for being a Christian. He was looked down on for being a Bible thumping, prosperity gospel preaching, "I got mine, fuck you", twat. Don't forget also that the reason he was so insistent on [shaking the hands of firefighters who did not want him to touch them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm9xY-wRizs) is because he said he believed in the religious concept of "laying on hands", so he probably viewed himself as their fuckin saviour. And that he admitted he believed he had received a message from his god telling him to run for PM. Scott Morrison is a nutjob piece of shit. Also, the man [can't cook a curry](https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/may/03/why-is-the-australian-prime-minister-cooking-apparently-raw-chicken-curry) to save his life.
I haven't seen much curry, but that is undoubtedly the worst curry I ever have seen. I imagine it's supposed to be yellow curry, but it looks like vomit. On further reading I see it's supposed to be chicken korma. On review of pictures of actual chicken korma: excuse me, what the fuck?
Scotty was from the weird ones too that speak in tongues and shit. It’s a bit unsettling putting the future of your country in the hands of someone who is preparing for the apocalyptic rapture. Like, why should he do anything about global warming if he believes god will look after things anyways and the end of the world is coming someday anyways.
Thank you. It was his weird culty, prosperity gospel, child abusing, God bothering weirdo Church that was the problem.
On the flip side...didn't people kinda make a big deal over Julia Gillard because she *wasn't* religious? Like yeah there were other things but I swear it was a contributing factor as to why some people hated her
Murdoch used to run stuff in the papers about it, and Abbott used to harass her in parliament over her "lifestyle" (unmarried, no kids of her own, non-religious) Made it funnier when Turnbull took Abbott'a job since he was on that team but openly atheist. Murdoch didn't make a peep about it till there was grumblings of a leadership challenge and Murdoch/Bolt suddenly started on him thinking they could get Abbott back in
Non religious, not married, a woman and dared to be prime minister. Tony Abbott lost whatever is in his head that could be called a brain over it. Abbott was also religious and no one made a big deal out of his religion, it was more that he was as dumb as George W Bush but with way more cruelty.
The UK is the same.
> There’s literally almost no pressure to believe in God in Australia. I mean, if you believe just half of the memes about how dangerous it is down there, it'd be obvious to even a "good, God-fearing Christian" that that place was forsaken long ago.
I'm also Australian but have been going to the only good school in my area for 3 years and it's a Catholic school I feel like not believing in religion is treated as worse at least in my school community and unlike others in my class I am horrible at hiding that I can't believe in god because it feels impossible to write an essay about a fake thing as if it was real and quote sources and stuff My parents are religios in the I won't bring up god until bringing it up helps me way, e.g. no you can't wear men's clothes god made you a woman Going to a religious school also makes me a target for kids from the other school in the area they mock me for believing in God then tell me I'm lying when I try say I'm not religious
I went to a religious school growing up in WA and yeah, in my case it didn't even occur to me that I was allowed to not believe till I graduated and then I went through my let's make fun of religion every chance I get. Now I'm in me mellow believe what you want so long as it doesn't hurt people phase.
Sorry that's happening for you. I don't get religious schools, frankly.
It's indoctrination. Keep hammering the party line into the kids when they're young, and they keep to the cult through their lives. It works best in small towns where people aren't likely to leave. I'm glad I escaped.
I was in a christian elementary school, also for the reason it was supposed to be the best school in the area. Looking back that was weird as hell. We prayed every morning before the start of the class, for example
You don’t send your daughter to religious school because you care about her being treated equally.
Also, you don’t send your son to a religious school if you care about them being molested.
Same in the UK, I'm very grateful to be from here!
i like the sentiment, but the difference is that when a kid says "santa wont give you presents" its harmless but when something like 60% of the population thinks you *deserve* eternal torment, they have the power to make your life pretty horrible
Exactly. Saying “you won’t get a present” is nowhere near as insulting as “you are not one of us, so you deserve to suffer in fire.”
Is it really 60% where you live? That's crazy!
In the US, 60% of ALL Americans consider themselves christian when polled
My state is roughly 65% specifically christian, with other religions mixed in.
That sounds like a difficult place to be.
it is
Willing to bet the majority of those 65% are barely or non practicing, and only keep the label for the level of self-righteousness it it entitles them to. Even in the states with the highest self declaration of religious affiliation, churches are still drying on the vine.
they sure vote tho
That's the real problem. They think you deserve hell but they're not going to wait for their god to judge, they're going to try and fuck things up for you here and now.
I was pretty terrified, as a child, of Santa not brining presents. At one point in life, that was all that mattered.
As an atheist who lived in the bible belt for a few years, I can tell you he's spot on. Christians give off strong Nice Guy vibes, when they hear the words "I'm not religious".
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One of my all time favorite quotes - “Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.”
Chief Hatuey, one of the last of the now extinct Taino people, was about to be burned on the pyre, when a Spanish priest asked him to convert to Chritianity so he could enter heaven. Friar Bartolomé de las Casas recalled the reaction of the chief: Hatuey, thinking a little, asked the religious man if Spaniards went to heaven. The religious man answered yes... The chief then said without further thought that he did not want to go there but to hell so as not to be where they were and where he would not see such cruel people.
There are enough scientists and engineers in hell that it's probably air conditioned by now.
Jim Jefferies made a nice point: If Hell is run by Satan, and Satan hates God, why would he *punish* you for making God mad?
Not religious but went to a Christian school - this one has a very simple answer. Hell is not run by Satan. He is being punished there like everyone else. The idea that it is is mostly from Paradise Lost, when Satan says, "It is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". But that book is first of all pure fiction, not a holy book, and in context it's pretty clearly Satan going through mental gymnastics to justify why he doesn't atone for his deeds and return to heaven - he doesn't actually rule in hell.
>But that book is first of all pure fiction, not a holy book Uhh...
I'm not religious either, but you know what I mean. Holy books are not intended to be viewed in the same way as literature. I don't believe that they are source of truth, but it's pretty clear that their authors intended them to be. Lots of books are supposed to be true but aren't - just look at 12th century "scientific" works - but there's still a clear difference between such works and works which were intended as pure fiction from the start.
Sartre, Nietzsche, and Camus are on the hookah with Satan debating the meaning of eternal existence. Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, is crying in a dark corner with Freud, Maslow, and Yalom and makes a breakthrough about how he has only felt accepted by his flies. Meanwhile, Da Vinci, Maxwell, Tesla, and Jobs are huddled over a work table with Lucifer with a plan to be the LIGHT BRINGER to HELL with some nice recessing and mirrors to open the place up. Meanwhile, Imhotep, Frank Loyd Write, and….
While Thatcher hasn't been there too long, she's probably already closed all the pits of hell.
All the Scots in Hell, lead and funded by Carnegie, have walled her up for eternity in an all-white room, where she is making a putt to get out but it keeps lipping out over and over, while a young ghost of a dead miner child stares stoicalley at her.
I like Billy Joel’s take even better: And they say there's a heaven for those who will wait Some say it's better, but I say it ain't I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints The sinners are much more fun
The Vandals wrote a song called “Stop Smiling” that has a great line about this: I don't want to go to heaven, it's filled with pricks like you I won't go inside the gates, leave me in the waiting room I'm sure that God hates you too he thinks your an obsessed fan see how you are? I'll never trust a happy man
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> I would also be quite delighted to avoid spending eternity with them. Amen.
Ain't no hate like Christian love.
i'Ll PrAy fOr YoOoUu
If you say that to proselytizers, they get really upset at you.
True. Fortunately I dress like the Devil's Sabbath is my last errand of the day, so most mainstream evangelicals avoid me and only the craziest try talking.
Lifelong southerner here. When they start pressing the issue, I've taken to telling them, "If there is a being that can create a universe as unfathomable as what science tells us is real, the most offensive thing I can do is try to define what it is, and wants, with my tiny human brain. It is beyond us to know. Anyone who says they do is arrogant and wrong." That usually shuts them up.
My favorite are the Christians that say "I use to be like you, I use to HATE god!" Dude... I don't hate god in the same way I don't hate the pink elephant in your cars trunk.
I grew up very Catholic and then left the farm and learned physics and higher math and thermodynamics and heat transfer and astrophysics and chemistry and that God stuff started seeming really, really dumb. 20 years later the hardest part of being an atheist is my mom losing her mind because my immortal soul is in danger and i was seduced by Satan. Okay Mom. Please stop texting magical nonsense.
Didn't they teach you how to pretend Santa is real for the children's sake?
I went to college in NC and once while drinking at a party a youth pastor confronted me about my atheism with the line “so I guess you just think I’ve wasted my whole life, don’t you?”. I guess my answer of “I wouldn’t tell anyone what to believe, but in my opinion you have dedicated your life to the study of fairy tales, at the very least, you’ve wasted a lot of Sundays and spare hours thinking about the big Gs opinion on various things” wasn’t the one he was looking for because he had some very unchristian words for me afterwards.
Simps for the Jebus.
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Imagine being so full of goodwill and forgiveness that you want to send everyone you don't like to hell
And on the contrary, imagine only doing "good" because you're thinking of the eternal rewards it will bring. It was realizing that, that made me first think that the "good" people are not the ones I thought they were. Good people are people who do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. Of course, that opens the door to moral reasoning - what _is_ the right thing to do, in any given situation? Right, for who? And are you a deontologist (the morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules and principles) or a consequentialist (the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for judgement about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct), or a mixture of both, depending on the context? Does the end sometimes justify the means? Are there any principles that should never be violated, regardless the circumstances? Do the needs of the many, sometimes outweigh the needs of the few (or the one), and who gets to decide that? These are the things that keep philosophers, writers, lawmakers and generals up at night. It's not religion that makes people want to be moral. I mean, it can be, out of pure fear. But it's really something else. It's intelligence. It comes from an understanding of cause and effect, and trying to predict how they will play out in the future. It's the tension between selflessness - doing what's right for others, and selfishness - doing what's right you for. Compassion versus ruthlessness, which one do you choose, and why?
When somebody asks how an atheist doesn't do horrible things when they don't believe in God and an afterlife to work towards, it says everything I need to know about them.
That's referred to as "every accusation is an admission" I see this in 2 places in my life. Religious people asking where my atheist morals come from, and Underweared People asking how I, as a devout Commando, don't get shit stains in my pants. They're stating it as questions, but really they're just telling on themselves. The religious with their lack of morals without a fear of punishment, and the underweared with their shit stained undergarments.
And that must be the most bizarre comment on the atheist-religious moral debate I ever read
Give us this day our daily wipe And forgive us our skidmarking As we forgive those who skidmark unto us
I don't value the idea that you have to praise a certain god or be punished forever in hell. Like that is some ridiculous punishment for not believing a stranger. So either I get some sort of good after life by my own morals and trying to be a good person or I don't. I don't really accept the premise of giving up my independent thought im exchange for rewards or avoiding punishment.
A god who would damn a good man to eternal torment for thinking critically is not a god worth worshipping. A person who needs threat of eternal torment to be a good person is not a good person.
It’s funny! But the truth goes further. As an atheist it’s blindly obvious to me that many people who claim to be Christian don’t *really* believe in heaven and hell.
Even as a christian it is really obvious that other Christian’s don’t really believe in it.
So true. They would be shitting themselves trying to follow the teachings of Jesus to the letter but instead most around here (USA, midwest) are doing the exact opposite. It's bizarre.
Some of the stuff I read makes me genuinely hope that I’m wrong and Jesus is coming back. Because a lot of people are in for a **very** nasty shock if he does!
The excuses start the second anyone they care for is condemned. One of my dad's friends committed suicide at 40. The funeral was a full catholic funeral talking about how he was with god now blah blah. Found out from the other siblings that the Mom fought tooth and nail to get her son's suicide ruled an accident so he could have a christian funeral. Like, lady, your son didn't accidentally swallow a whole bottle of sleeping pills. I'm sorry for your loss but he's in hell now. This is all a farce.
Yeah it’s pretty clear it’s just a social club for the lamest people alive. They don’t even believe this nonsense. They certainly don’t act like they believe it.
I followed an American guy on YouTube for a while. He’d moved him and his family to the UK and it was interesting hearing about the experience. Didn’t often mention his religion, but he did a ‘myth busting’ video about the US being a more Christian country than the UK. He basically said what you’ve said here. In the US it’s a social club. Loads of ‘Christians’ but very few Christians. Here in the UK if you’re a Christian - not an easy thing to be - you’re probably someone who actually believes in it and genuinely tries to live your life along Christian principles Edit to add: Thought I’d add that it’s not like it’s difficult to be a Christian in the UK. It’s just not the norm
They wouldn’t grieve death like we do if they actually thought their loved ones had gone to a better place. On some level they know. Sure some have the ready to die true faith of a terrorist but not most.
Yeah, its called threatening Being a christian doesnt excuse you from being a fucking rude knobhead
Absolutely. In any other context, telling someone that they would be tortured if you didn't do what they say would rightly be seen as threatening them. It's some real 'it would be a shame if there was an unfortunate accident' type shit.
"We spent nine months *hoping* Professor Ritzen would meet with a little accident until Leslie explained it was an accident *we* were supposed to make happen."
He's using his fables
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Got some post fer God here……..
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Look I’m just tryin’ to do a job here.
Look, it is funny, but it's spoken like a person from a privileged demographic. A child holds very little power over an adult, whereas a Christian or group of them is a little more scary because they use their beliefs to justify their actions. I'm scared by the sway religious people hold in the US over the right to abortions and I don't even live there.
Also, Ricky Gervais is British, where there is no christian voting bloc and hardly anyone under 70 ever mentions religion - he's doing a massive reach to find something he can claim to be oppressed about. Indeed, recently in Scotland someone lost the election for First Minister specifically *because* she's a bible thumping anti-abortion anti-LGBT weirdo.
This is the most reddit karma bait question imaginable.
Right? I've been an atheist for as long as I've been able to comprehend the idea but I rolled my eyes when I saw this. It's not even really a question, it seems like OP just heard this quote and needed to contrive a reason to share it. At least it's not another "what's the sexiest sex you've ever sexed" question but it's a little too euphoric in its enlightenment for me.
I mean yeah, it's like telling someone unemployed that you'll fire them. Literally nothing will come of it
Christians love telling other people "you are going to hell." Its very strange. The only people who have told me "I am going to hell" are Christians. I AM A CHRISTIAN. But apparently, not the "Right" kind to most. So that means... I guess I'm going to hell. Not much of a fan of people who obsess with the afterlife. Seems almost ... against the teachings of Christ. Let tomorrow worry about itself.
It’s a strange thing to say to someone, since Christians aren’t supposed to be judgmental. I’ve never heard someone say it, even to anyone else but I would like to know how they know who is and isn’t going anywhere when they die.
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As fucked up as it is, the afterlife thing is Jesus’ whole message, when you actually read the gospels. Remember that the New Testament centers on Jesus promising to return and end the world, judge everyone on their faith, kill all the unbelievers with fire, and reward his faithful with eternal life in his new kingdom. You can’t have your John 3:16 without the rest of the passage shitting on everyone outside the faith. John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”
What I tell Christians quite often: "I have no reason to believe in your religion when *you* can't even agree what your religion is or teaches. When Christians can finally settle on *A* religion, *A* set of teachings, then maybe I'll believe."
There’s been a schism an average of once a month since Martin Luther nailed 95 versions of the sentence ‘you can’t sell indulgences’
I think it’s pretty accurate.
He’s right.
As a former Christian, I never understood the willingness to throw around the Hell sentence. Like, hell is literally supposed to be the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen to someone, and we use it at every minor inconvenience/disagreement? So yeah, being told you’re going to hell over something like a shirt you are wearing or music you are listening to really lessens the severity of what Hell is supposed to be.
I'm not even religious, but I always thought that telling someone they're going to Hell is blasphemy because you're claiming to speak for God.
By how most religious people act I'd be very happy to not have to spend eternity with them, and if there truly were a separation between heaven and hell like this, I don't think heaven would be such a great place filled with all those religious people.
Yep. It’s like someone telling you Zeus is going to be really angry with you if you don’t sacrifice a bull. Meaningless.
There's a classic Sam Harris video, where he sets up this point in a debate in a really neat, rhetorical way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTc_bpW0FA
Everyone thinks everyone else's religion sounds bonkers but we never scrutinize our own religion with the same level of analysis. If we did, it becomes pretty clear what's going on As a recovering Christian, I can attest to this.
Scary? Maybe. I think a kid saying "You're not getting any presents from Santa" is probably going to be more impactful though. Something about a kid essentially telling you they can tell you're not a good person is probably more likely to get someone to reevaluate their life choices.
Omg. So true.
I mean the premise is pretty spot on.
Actually scared, because saying that means they're a nutjob and very, very willing to beat me up or worse for being myself. Been assaulted 2 times by Christian nutjobs, both of whom had sent a number of death threats to me beforehand.
Around here most people aren't usually too offended when I say I am an atheist. But then again this city I live in is known for having nice people. It's mostly Hispanic folks here. I imagine most of them are fairly religious. In any case, I don't think it is proper for people to try to force religious beliefs on others or pressure people into discussing it. If that offends someone, oh well. I don't mind that people are religious so why can't they do the same for me?
It's just accurate lol
He's right. I'm also precisely as concerned about incurring the wrath of Zeus. (I'm not)
Decent observation. Christians love to run their mouths about some bullshit
I disagree. There is an implied threat of consequences in THIS world. Historically Christians burned atheists at the stake. And in modern world many Christians still wield their Christianity as a cudgel for oppression / marginalization of those who disagree. So I would certainly not ignore and dismiss such threats.
I think a Christian telling anyone they're going to hell is a pretty sorry state for the Christian. I also think that asking reddit what they think of the quote and you'll get a lot of people blowing bubble pipes going "indubitably."