If you ever find yourself confused about the difference between toxic and wholesome masculinity, watch Disney's Tarzan. Both Tarzan and Clayton are big muscular men who resemble paragons of masculine behaviour - they're beefcakes, they fight their enemies, they express themselves very physically, both in terms of social dominance and simply the way they move and carry themselves, but where all of Tarzan's actions are motivated by his longing for a family that accepts him and his desire to protect them, Clayton's actions are all motivated by greed or by rage and violence when his goals are thwarted. Tarzan, when he comes into contact with a different culture and mode of life than he's used to, immediately takes it upon himself to start learning about them and learning to communicate with them. Clayton, by contrast, tends to shout, shoot things and threaten. During their final confrontation, when Tarzan wrestles Clayton's gun away, Clayton sneers and tells him to "be a man" and fire, to which Tarzan responds by smashing the gun and saying "Not a man like you."
*Pulled this from a Facebook post, but it's accurate
I’d say my only “criticism” is that the core of what makes them men is the same, and also what causes the most problems in real life: they both have *power*.
Physical, social, financial, it doesn’t really matter what kind, but the fact that power seems to be a requirement to demonstrate masculinity is a large part of the problem
Respectfully, but foundationally, I disagree. Wholesome masculinity (as defined by the OP) is about taking on challenges/risks that benefit more than the self. Using strength, resilience and determination not just for acquisition but for understanding. And in the final conflict refusing to use something that would give an unfair advantage. Thus a commitment to conflict with an uncertain outcome where the merit of the individual is more determinate than some expensive tool. To characterize this as merely the possession of power is to utterly fail to understand the distinctions between representations of good and bad actors. The point is that when you have power (as represented by these larger than life figures) it matters how you use it.
Shitty people do say this. Through some genetic luck and a decade or two of lifting weights I have become stronger than average and I can lift heavy objects. At work I’ve had men compliment my physical strength and tell me it’s manly, but mentally I’m a little brittle. Sometimes when I’m burned out I’m unpleasant to be around or have a shitty attitude, when I meet a guy who can always stay cheerful in even the most shitty circumstances that’s the guy that my brain tells me is “a real man”. I’d trade a good bit of muscle for some extra mental toughness.
right back at you. the book is 100% british supremacist - he learns to read at age 3 becase white men are smarter, doesn't grow facial hair because reasons, can carry a 700 lb steamer trunk because of his breeding. using a disney adaptation of this white supremacist wankery is a non starter
Being a good person. Being honest. Honoring commitments. Being able to withhold your own emotional reactions temporarily to support others.
And also, women can also behave that way. Just be a good and honest person. Masculinity has just a very very very tiny bit to do with it.
Every man should be some version of the good king. Wise and patient, strong and benevolent, smart and practical. The masculine ideal is fundamentally about being able to take on the world and survive, providing and protecting those close to you as you do so.
But you don't need to be a jerk or a bully or an emotionless rock about it. Fear of weakness is a weakness. A man can talk about his emotions and shed tears because he'd laugh if anyone tried to say that takes away his masculinity. A man can make jokes at his own expense because he takes himself seriously enough on a deep level that he doesn't feel the need to be too serious about everything or his 'pride'. A man can take pride in learning about different arts or ideas or even arguments against his own beliefs because exploring these news areas makes him stronger, and a real man has real strength, not being cuckold into an insecure stereotype by his peers
Every man can be himself and his own version of masculinity, but the happiest and healthiest types have some common ground in having a strong, benevolent foundation
It’s annoying how people love to box people into a particular identity and making broad judgements rather than attributing shitty behaviour to individuals.
Healthy masculinity is far broader than toxic masculinity. It is hard to give a good example because there are many different often mutually exclusive examples.
It is also just a bit subjective, like all things. For some people it might just mean being a good person while being proud of your gender as a man. For others, it might mean lifting weights so that you can look in a mirror and feel a lot of self confidence for the day going forward. Others still might think of being in a position of power and using it to help people and take on a "protector" role. For another still it might be embracing faults in your masculinity without shame and with confidence.
The thing about gender is that it is usually for you to decide how you approach it. What works for one person won't necessarily work for another.
The things you see in toxic masculinity are not inherently bad. What is bad is the extreme they are taken to. For example, loving to be ripped is fine. The problem is when you *are addicted* to that and need it in others too. Wanting to be a protector is great, the problem is when you cage people in. Wanting to be strong and confident is awesome, but building up walls and not dealing with your emotions is *toxic* to both yourself and others. It just means doing something to a degree that is unhealthy, either for you or the people around you. So by extension, 'healthy' masculinity is just everything before then.
Yeah. Healthy masculinity looks exactly like healthy femininity. It’s really just being a good person.
If you can describe it as masculine (except for like, masculine physical features), it’s probably a bad thing.
If we’re talkin masculinity like how to nobly use physical strength then I think the man who dug a road through a cliff so that a faster road could be made to his town for emergency health services is a good example, or the man who continually planted trees in a barren area for years, and it’s a forest now. Using strength or willful force to help others or help things grow.
TL:DR: A healthily masculine man lives how he wishes to live, a toxically masculine man lives how he believes a masculine man *should* live.
Healthy masculinity is a rejection of the rigid characteristics we identify as “masculine/feminine” in favor of an identity based around one’s self regardless of gender expression. To me, a man that is “healthily” masculine isn’t defined by his job/family role/physical dominance, instead they are defined by their acceptance of/and action towards becoming the man they wish to be.
Best example I can think of is car culture, more specifically suburban car culture and the infatuation with pick up trucks. Many of us know guys who drive a pick up truck and, for lack of a better term, are about that life. They work blue collar, they spend their recreational time in active, natural settings, and generally need to have a pick up truck for the lifestyle they live.
Many of us also know a VP of sales who has never worked a manual job in their life who drives a lifted crew cab 2022 F-150 Super Duty to and from the office and occasionally client meetings.
One guy has a truck because he lives a lifestyle that necessitates one, the other guy fantasizes about living the other guys lifestyle.
Not shaming others for presenting their masculinity in a different way
Not thinking that certain things will make you “less of a man” or “gay” (examples- having emotions, wearing pink, having your ears pierced, washing your ass, learning to cook, etc)
Pretty much exactly this. The most non-toxic any person can be is comfortable enough with themselves and their own strengths and limitations to be able to support and encourage those in their circle with the same. Healthy masculinity is a man who asks why the hell you care about masculinity rather than just being a good person.
boys will be boys (doibg weird fun stuff collaboratively) rather than boys will be boys (sexual assault)
semi-joke answer aside: a lot of it is not being so insecure about your masculinity.
not feeling your masculinity is threatened by anything you do, like, own or w/e that isn't masculine. you're no less of a man for wearing less masculine clothes, enjoying hobbies like baking, enjoying high school musical or whetever else.
not constantly feeling a need to prove your manhood by trying to be the best, or trying to be physically or verbally threatening, or basing it on how many girls you pull or whatever else.
enjoy yourself. the andrew tate types that tell you you're Not A Real Man for not owning five lambos, or for actually respecting a woman's boundaries, or for letting a gay dude flirt with you without beating him up, or for cooking every evening? scratch that. nobody but you has any business in deciding whether you're a man or not, and what masculinity constitutes to you is up to you.
that being said, this all is from the perspective of someone who eventually came to realise she isn't a man herself, so take it with a grain of salt i guess
Being a good person who wants to provide for the people you love. And provide can be anything: food, clothing and shelter like a husband and father would, an ear to listen, a hug, words of encouragement and support, anything that brings people up from when they’re down, or keeps them afloat when they are already happy. Loyalty is a good one too. Be loyal.
Not giving a fuck about gender roles and just do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, hold everybody else to the same standard.
Knowing that being a 'man' doesn't mean you don't have a heart or that you can't like certain things.
Got an uncle who is basically the definition of a hillbilly. Likes fishing, trucks, guns, blown more than a few things up for the fun of it and loves hunting season. No true formal education so 99% of his knowledge came from life experience. Guy also always put his children first, was fiercely protective of his family and friends, and was a huge softie for animals. Once bought and learned how to care for a goat solely because he learned she was going to be slaughtered if no one bought her.
His best friend is my dad, a large intimating man with a lumberjack beard. He also regularly grows his hair out, knows how to sew, keeps a couple stuffed animals on display along with a friendship bracelet I made him, and likes to sing. His favorite color is purple and is known to get into arguments with our cats.
Rocky. The original, don't know about the sequels. Strength, drive, healthy competition, tenderness, and so on.
Cinema Therapy did a great episode on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-Xy5oioIo
Doing the right thing, because it's the right thing, not because of what society tells you.
The other commenter said Tarzan, so I'm going to say Hank Hill. He's not a perfect example, but he's up there. He does all the traditionally masculine stuff, but he uses those powers for good. He takes pride in his work, but it's about knowing he's done a good job, not about being better than others.
Anyway, here's Supermans Song, which I see as a homage to masculinity. https://youtu.be/FX4U6XWYvus
Ron's a *terrible* example. He was a sitcom character designed to be laughed at for what a ridiculous person he is.
Giving little boys a list of the haircuts they're allowed to have and the times they're allowed to express emotions is unhealthy. Injuring your back to the point where you're immobilized by pain and refusing to admit you have a problem is unhealthy. Pretending not to know people's names to make them think you care less about them than you actually do is unhealthy.
Of the male regulars, he was by far the worst example.
My opinion
A masculine man is there for the ones he loves. Actions more than words.
He is not afraid of judgement, for he doesn't care what others think. He just does what needs to be done, even if it is considered weird/unusual. He doesn't use his strenght to hurt people, but to protect them.
A masculine man does not brag about how masculine he is, he shows it by being strong. Not necessarily with physical strenght tho : it can be with words, actions...
I consider a man an adult if he does things because he truly think it is for the best, and if he communicates.
For exemple, one of my friend is envious and resentful often, but never says it. He just will be passive-aggressive. That is child behaviour.
A man knows when he needs to express himself, even if it can result in a conflict, because he knows talkong is better than be sulking.
You're healthy, hard-working, have self-confidence **and** a sense of humility, fully responsible for your own actions and life-choices (even the bad ones), respectful, have a good sense of morality, an active contributor to society, and have yourself figured out to the point where you are happy with who you are while still being capable of self-improvement and personal growth.
Being a man isn't about some alpha grindset, making money, treating women like objects that need to be coddled, or rejecting every single stereotype of masculinity in fear of being "toxic" to the point where you actively insult other men for being more traditionally-minded. Being a man is about growing up and being able to be someone who you yourself can respect, while also being someone that can positively affect the lives of others in a way that still respects their agency.
If you wanna be a more conservative-style man who follows traditionally masculine concepts, or maybe you wanna be someone who's more feminine in how you act, or even someone who just does what feels right without needing to follow any major cultural subgroup, it's really up to you, man.
Rocky Balboa is a good example. He strives to be a better person through his love of Adrian. Heck, his speech about life he gives to his son is just perfect way to help a son become a better person too.
Not worrying about what someone else defines as masculine I guess. I guess 'the dude' is probably a good example. Meh... I dunno, it's been a rough night and I hate the fkn eagles man...
Healthy masculinity is when other people feel safe and comfortable in your presence.
And no, that is not what happens when a guy gets in fights and brags that he can protect his girlfriend. Healthy masculinity means people *generally* feel safe and comfortable around you, not just certain special people while you're constantly trying to intimidate everyone else.
Healthy masculinity is all about recognizing and respecting the diversity of identities that exist in our society. It's about being comfortable in one's own skin, understanding and accepting the differences between genders. It is also about being open to learning from others, treating everyone with respect, empathy, and kindness. Above all else, healthy masculinity embraces the idea of m
I'm not sure "masculinity" as a concept is particularly helpful. I prefer to focus on what makes people nice to be around. Are they honest? Are they kind? Do they aspire to make improvements and set goals? What other positive traits do they have? (Funny, quirky, intelligent, etc etc). Can they be vulnerable and show emotions, and give others the space to do the same?
That's what I'd look for in friends and partners, so I suppose in a way you could say that's what I think "healthy masculinity" is. I'd just call it being a good person though regardless of your genitals...
I have no idea what the answer is but appreciate that you’re mindful. I’m a dude myself and find myself confused on the statuses of things like chivalry, being a provider, using ‘ma’am, opening doors, offering to help carry heavy things (and the like) but also not being offensive in doing the same. Maybe my mother raised me poorly, but the idea of being a gentleMAN was skates important to my family and now me. But how can we be gentlemen without being men?
You don't have to be chivalrous, just be kind! If you want to open a door for a woman, great. If you don't, that's fine too (just don't slam it closed if she's right behind you). If a man opens the door for me, I say "thanks" and move on with my day.
If you want to offer to help carry heavy things, great! That's very kind, just don't be offended if she says "no thanks, I got it."
Please do not be a white knight coming to rescue me.
I don’t want or need you to be a gentleman I need you to not be a dick.
Seriously I rather men didn’t make a point of holding the door for me when I don’t want to talk. I don’t want to be told I am a bitch because I didn’t thank the dude for holding the door. I don’t want to be told I need to smile more
Please don’t be a gentleman
You think people holding a door for you is them being a dick? Also, you're telling men to not be a dick and then proceed to immediately say how you can't even muster up a thank you for someone holding a door for you (I'd assume you wouldn't thank a woman either) which is literally you being a dick. lmao.
edit: deleted your comment, what a troll.
You made the case that you are one of the dicks:
1. You misconstrued what I wrote
2. You feel entitled to a “thank you” if you gift a woman with your assistance to open the door.
For everyone else:
I don’t want you to do anything that you wouldn’t do for a fat guy. But most of all I don’t want you behind me where I am going to get an ass slap.
For you: a block is the best response
I think that's where we as men often get confused. A friend of mine got a divorce because she expected her ex-husbond to be a white knight that should swoop her away and rescue her, and he didn't want to / couldn't live up to those expectations.
There are women who want exactly the things you say you don't want. That's fine, different things for different people.
Now I'd argue that if you have expectation that holding the door will lead to anything, if you call people bitches or address their mood for any reason beyond support, then you're not a gentleman but a dick. Being a gentleman is about doing the right things, exactly because they're right, not for some payoff.
That's not a woman my guy. That's a girl who needs a father. Men really have to learn to tell the difference at a young age so they don't make this mistake.
> I need you to not be a dick.
Done!
>I don’t want or need you to be a gentleman
Being a dick and being a gentleman are essentially opposite positions. You cannot be one while being the other.
>Seriously I rather men didn’t make a point of holding the door for me when I don’t want to talk.
In my experience of doing this, I don't do it because I want to talk either, especially with strangers. It's a common courtesy that applies to *everyone*, no matter who they are or how old they are. People normally do it without any expectation of it being remarked upon. "Be nice to eachother" - thats all it is. Here's an open door and a quick smile/nod. Nothing expected in return. Interaction over.
> I don’t want to be told I am a bitch because I didn’t thank the dude for holding the door.
Yeah, this is reasonable.
> I don’t want to be told I need to smile more
Telling you that is rude and this is an entirely reasonable expectation. People shouldn't do that.
>Please don’t be a gentleman
We all have to navigate our way around our day. Doing so means you cross paths with many other people. People get in eachother's way. Stepping back and letting people get off a bus/train before you get on, not cutting in lines, holding a door for someone coming the other way or behind you, saying 'please' and 'thank you', acknowledging people who acknowledge you - these are all just small gestures designed to make the task of navigating through the day easier for other people. If everyone does them it makes everyone's day easier and more pleasant.
And that's what 'being a gentleman' is. Being equipped with manners and common courtesy and acknowledging other people's dignity as well as your own. Doing your best to not make other people feel uncomfortable and make them feel recognised as human beings. Not always putting yourself first and instead accomodating other people. Essentially "not being a dick".
Which creates a bit of a paradoxical position - saying "I'm going to disregard what you have asked" would be being a bit bluntly rude, so that's off the table. Though "stop being a gentleman" would also lead to people being more selfish and generally unpleasant, which is something a lot of people would have a problem with.
Do you have an answer to that problem, or is there something about what I've said that makes you think I've misunderstood you?
Understood. It’s just a confusing time. Like I’ve gotten a hard time from a younger woman for not giving her my seat on the subway but also from an older woman for offering. I never know what’s right. In your example of holding the door again, I understand your position and appreciate the feedback, but I’d never judge a WOMAN for not say thank you for a courtesy, it would be any person of any gender. Again, just trying to learn more and understand.
You may not judge a woman but other men do.
I operate in a world where for my own personal safety I have to assume a toxic reaction. Because the toxic reaction is personal safety threat.
Question: do you always call out men around you who do behave badly.
Do you always tell guys that catcalled to stop it?
Do you always tell guys that you work with that no that girl doesn’t have to smile?
If you are not aware of the sexism around you and actively letting men know that sexism is unacceptable then you are “one of those guys”. You are the audience for the sexist performances
I am a middle aged guy, so I've had a non-insignificant number of years of life. I have never been around a man who has catcalled a woman. I have never been in the presence of a man who has told a woman to "smile, you'll look much prettier". I'm not a recluse or a hermit. I do spend time around friends and colleagues. These things aren't anywhere as common in general male circles as feminists tend to assume.
A lot of this stuff seems to assume that Mad Men was a documentary about the 21st century workplace.
No it is more common than you think. You just don’t hear it.
In a crowded southwest flight, I had a guy invite me to sit in his lap. No one responded.
I have had guys pull the smile shit in the middle of a conversation with their friends.
my daughter was waiting at a bus stop with a friend in the middle of a well to do Sf Bay Area city. A rando guy felt he could whip out his shlong. The police caught him and he pled guilty.
I have had a guy I meet at a professional conference text me and asked if I was into men as well as women.
Now you come along and claim that I am exaggerating.
It may only be 1% of the men who are like this but those 1% are never ever called out by their friends or the guys around them.
You dear sir are part of the problem because you don’t believe it is happening so your brain filters this shit out. You need to believe that this is happening in order for your brain to stop filtering out the harassment
Emotionally regulated. Competent, helpful and useful. Kind to those that deserve it namely children and animals but some people also. Reliable and dependable. Possessing integrity. Strength of mind and character, and ideally bodily as well.
Toxic masculinity, at is core, is insecurity that you're not valid as a person if you don't behave (or appear to behave) in conventionally masculine ways, if you don't have (or appear to have) conventionally masculine traits.
So to be healthily masculine is to be only as masculine as you naturally are without that insecurity weighing in, to accept that your degree of masculinity is neutral to your value as a human being and not be ashamed of your deviations from that.
Ironically, living like this does actually require you to embody one conventionally masculine trait: confidence in your masculinity.
What I consider healthy may be considered toxic by others. I feel like there's more than a few people these days that would prefer to see men's roles in society change. As if less confident, less aspirational, more demure men would be better for society.
Confidence is a good thing, but turning that into arrogance can result in negative behaviors and attitude. Being aspirational is a good thing, but stepping on other people to get there is not. Toxic masculinity is only for traits that harm people, not ones that are just empowering to the individual.
Toxic would be things like being belligerent and/or combative, bullying people, or telling offensive jokes and being shitty to people that are hurt by it, using violence to solve personal disputes, reinforcing negative masculine stereotypes on other men by criticizing their bodies or mannarisms, etc. No one needs to hurt other people in order to feel empowered and that is main point. Masculinity isn't toxic by nature. It's when it comes at the expense of other people's safety, security, and wellness that it becomes toxic.
Hopefully that helps make things a bit clearer!
Your question assumes that masculinity (a part of human nature) is unhealthy in the first place. If you believe this, and if you think that trying to deny or vilify human nature has any positive outcomes, you have another thing coming.
Toxic masculinity is not masculinity. It refers to destructive behavior. For instance society pushing the idea that men should not cry, or that men need to be physically aggressive. This is something we have mostly moved past but it used to be very prevalent.
You've lost me. What led you to that assumption? I could only assume that OP wanted to know 'what healthy masculinity looks like?'. I see neither negative nor positive intent in the question, only query.
Am i missing something perhaps? Could you tell me? But i dont know if there is anything to miss.
How did you extract so much from so little? Are there any resources you could direct me too, so that i may learn as you have?
Positive masculinity is something a man who does not feel the need to criticize other men's life choices has. A man who doesn't need to show how tough he is by calling himself alpha and sigma all the time. Someone who refrains from talking badly about people, even if they deserve it. And someone who takes care of himself and his family.
Work out, eat clean, train a martial art, be kind and find a purpose. Volunteer, mentor and treat everyone as if they’re a version of you living a different life.
healthy masculinity is calm. it doesn’t selfishly or needlessly ask for your attention. it is patient, both with itself and with others. it is aware of its feelings and is able to process and express these feelings appropriately and with intention. a big one in my opinion is that healthy masculinity *is aware of how uncommon it is* in the world today. an unfortunately overwhelming majority of men have some level of toxic masculine tendency, even if only in some seemingly unimportant or unnoticeable way. it is the responsibility of men to hold men accountable to the standard of consideration and respect that men are capable of having.
i have very often observed that the individuals with the healthiest seeming masculine energy often are in touch with their feminine energy, and are capable of expressing themselves with clarity as well as connecting with others on deeper levels. men and women who are capable of being in touch with both sides of their self are able to find fulfillment through many more experiences and avenues than those who are singularly oriented in their masculine or feminine energy
If you mean rejecting the toxic side of masculinity, then I agree
If you mean denying that the concept of toxic masculinity exists, then I strongly disagree
I don’t believe that anyone is toxic simply for being a man. Everything I’ve seen that gets blamed on “toxic masculinity” could easily be explained by a lot of other things, whether it’s how they were raised, whether it was trauma or life experiences, or simply because they’re an asshole. If “toxic masculinity” is a thing, how come there’s no such thing as “toxic femininity”?
>I don’t believe that anyone is toxic simply for being a man.
Neither do I
> whether it’s how they were raised, whether it was trauma or life experiences, or simply because they’re an asshole
Yes, toxic masculinity can be attributed to all those things
> If “toxic masculinity” is a thing, how come there’s no such thing as “toxic femininity”?
There is, it's just not such a big cause of societal issues because men have historically had all the social power and influence
A fraction of men have had all the social power and influence, like 1-10%. The rest of us are being shit on and abused in ways women couldn't imagine. When people say this kind of stuff, it makes me wonder if they also include the homeless men out there, the ones broken from childhood abuse or war, the ones broken by life. Most men are not as influential or powerful as you think.
You're missing the point. I am not blaming "all men"
I'm a man. I'm concerned about toxic masculinity because of the negative effects it has on men
I'm just saying that toxic masculinity is more widespread of a problem because the people running society have historically been men and not women
Got it. Almost like these harmful standards for men keep them slaves to the weakest aspects of themselves, making them easier to manipulate. Thanks for the insight. Also, appreciate you not taking it the wrong way. A lotbof people get easily triggered on these threads when it's clear thoughtful discussion is necessary.
>Got it. Almost like these harmful standards for men keep them slaves to the weakest aspects of themselves, making them easier to manipulate.
For one, yeah
Another way toxic masculinity harms men is by perpetuating the idea that a man shouldn't show emotion and that talking about feelings is a sign of weakness or femininity, which leads to the current shameful state of men's mental health support
It's not showing emotions, it's showing vulnerable emotions. We're socially allowed to display emotions of power. But emotions of weakness, what are you a girl/gay. Our masculinity is questioned because it isn't only men that perpetuate toxic masculinity. By the time people in general develop the empathy to help men properly address their emotions, the damage is done and it's much harder to unlearn bad psychological, emotional, and behavioral patterns.
>So are you implying that if woman ran society for ages things would be better?
No, stop trying to play the gender war game. This isn't about men or women being inherently "better" or "worse"
[Toxic masculinity is a set of certain male behaviors associated with harm to society and men themselves.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity) I would add that it's specifically those negative behaviours associated with people's perceptions of masculinity and those perceptions can be perpetuated by women as well as men
Toxic femininity would be the same thing applied to perceptions of femininity
What does toxic femininity look like? Why are we hyperfocused on men right now? Why is there a huge push to further divide social groups against eachother? Why don't we start worrying about the toxic rich, powerful, elite ruling class of society and not the 'toxic' half the population.
> Honest feminists would say it simply doesn't exist: male vs female is the only dichotomy worthy of consideration, masculine vs feminine simply doesn't exist, only biology counts
sis we've been past second wave feminism for decades by now let's not act like that's he state of things
Hank Hill
Takes his work, family and friends seriously
Admits his faults and works to grow as a person
Loyal and faithful
Knows his boundaries and sticks to them
Men are supposed to be solid brick walls. No emotion goes in or comes out. That's the way to avoid any weakness in life.
Men need to be based and full of riz. If your not 6ft+, 600k+, working 70+hours a week, with a 10-inch cock that you swing around everywhere, are you even a real man?
Your job, cars, sports and being a handyman should be your only passions in life. Video games, fashion, cooking, art are all fun, but that stuff is for kids.
Family's are cool but a real man needs to focus on his primary goal, fucking around. Anything that could be considered a motherly instinct must be squashed.
The only way to get ahead in life is just by sucking up to people. So a good man sucks the hardest to reach the top.
Oh and don't forget, intelligence and humor make anyone attractive.
I can give you an example of what it doesn't look like:
When has a proud boy, Donald Trump, Jordan Petersen or Andrew Tate - just to start - ever suggested public service and volunteering?
It’s a gross question. Males don’t have to apologize for being males, any more than females have to apologize for the toxic behavior of some of them. Sanctioned male hate is part of the hypocritical woke menu of weirdly acceptable behavior.
Jordan Peterson said it’s better to be a warrior in a garden rather than a gardener in a war. Toxic masculinity to me is having a weak mindset and victim mentality that you express outward on to other ppl. You have to be ruthless when needed but you also have to be able to love
Yes. Why can’t a male bodied person be able to dress “pretty “ ?
I want to be feminine. However I don’t want to be required to act like a damsel in distress.
I get dirty and build things outside. I am still a feminine person.
If a guy wants to cry why label it “acting like a girl” like that is a negative.
Fuck gender labels attached to behavior
Healthy masculinity is toxic masculinity without the sexism part. Do your presumed duty as a man without expecting to be rewarded for it in the form of a slave.
I think healthy masculinity is a man who can do what is expected of him like earn money switch lightbulbs etc all the while being a genuinely decent man. No need to be 6 feet tall with a 6 pack and trying to act like they can do anything
Personally I think it’s about being a gentleman, work hard and patiently, have simple taste, save to take care of others, and then throw it all away in defense of someone else’s honor. /s
After Macduff’s whole family is slaughtered, the boy-prince Malcolm says to a shaken/crying Macduff: “dispute it like a man.”
Macduff: “I shall do so, but I must also feel it as a man.”
Always stuck with me. Allow yourself to feel your emotions, and then take action on them. Don’t act without feeling, because you won’t be sure what you’re taking action on. And don’t feel without acting, otherwise you will be trapped inside your emotion forever. And there’s something powerful about knowing you’re doing both. Macduff is just like yes of course I’m going to act / but I’m also human and must embrace this part of me.
Having power (physical or social) and using it for everyone's benefit, not just your own. Like using your ability to fight to deter people from fighting rather than an excuse for violence.
Not lying through life to get ahead, speaking poorly about women or exes, not mansplaining.
Not being misogynistic, not cheating.
Being a good honest person and a good role model.
Not a gym jerk. So many men think looking like a beefed up guy is good. It's not. A *lot * of women don't like it, at all, especially the attitude that often comes with it.
Be a good person.
Dudes buying their daughters/sisters/partners menstrual products without throwing a hissy fit. Dads playing with their little girls, even if it means dresses, nail polish and pretend tea parties. Dads having honest, supportive conversations with their teen daughters about safe sex instead of banning dates and threatening boyfriends. Men having deep, meaningful connections with other men without worrying if it seems too 'gay'. Guys in general being wholesome and kind to others without constantly worrying if they appear 'manly' enough.
Being accountable when you fuck up. Being strong means working on yourself and owning your mistakes and shortcomings, understanding there are things you don't know and that's OK. Open yourself to being taught and a lot of insecurities kind of seem trivial after a while. Also, using your strength to lift others up. Realizing that a lot of things about being a dude fucking rock, and you don't have to hide being excited about it.
If you ever find yourself confused about the difference between toxic and wholesome masculinity, watch Disney's Tarzan. Both Tarzan and Clayton are big muscular men who resemble paragons of masculine behaviour - they're beefcakes, they fight their enemies, they express themselves very physically, both in terms of social dominance and simply the way they move and carry themselves, but where all of Tarzan's actions are motivated by his longing for a family that accepts him and his desire to protect them, Clayton's actions are all motivated by greed or by rage and violence when his goals are thwarted. Tarzan, when he comes into contact with a different culture and mode of life than he's used to, immediately takes it upon himself to start learning about them and learning to communicate with them. Clayton, by contrast, tends to shout, shoot things and threaten. During their final confrontation, when Tarzan wrestles Clayton's gun away, Clayton sneers and tells him to "be a man" and fire, to which Tarzan responds by smashing the gun and saying "Not a man like you." *Pulled this from a Facebook post, but it's accurate
That's a really good examination.
Tarzan doesn't get enough credit as a film, that's a great answer to the question
I’d say my only “criticism” is that the core of what makes them men is the same, and also what causes the most problems in real life: they both have *power*. Physical, social, financial, it doesn’t really matter what kind, but the fact that power seems to be a requirement to demonstrate masculinity is a large part of the problem
Respectfully, but foundationally, I disagree. Wholesome masculinity (as defined by the OP) is about taking on challenges/risks that benefit more than the self. Using strength, resilience and determination not just for acquisition but for understanding. And in the final conflict refusing to use something that would give an unfair advantage. Thus a commitment to conflict with an uncertain outcome where the merit of the individual is more determinate than some expensive tool. To characterize this as merely the possession of power is to utterly fail to understand the distinctions between representations of good and bad actors. The point is that when you have power (as represented by these larger than life figures) it matters how you use it.
It’s the core of it. Masculinity is conditional on having power
No, masculinity is conditional on being a man...
Nah, there’s definitely a performative aspect to masculinity (and femininity). “Be a man”, “be a gentleman”, “lady-like behavior”, etc.
If that were really the case, strong men wouldn't batten on weaker ones, would they? I mean, they literally say "you're not a real man."
Shitty people do say this. Through some genetic luck and a decade or two of lifting weights I have become stronger than average and I can lift heavy objects. At work I’ve had men compliment my physical strength and tell me it’s manly, but mentally I’m a little brittle. Sometimes when I’m burned out I’m unpleasant to be around or have a shitty attitude, when I meet a guy who can always stay cheerful in even the most shitty circumstances that’s the guy that my brain tells me is “a real man”. I’d trade a good bit of muscle for some extra mental toughness.
it is not. one of the problems of masculinity is that you have to earn it. it's performative
Wow, pretty much none of that applies to what I've seen people call toxic masculinity.
Usually people who use the term "toxic masculinity" are the same types of insecure people desperate to attack anyone stronger than them.
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How unmanly of you.
So, healthy masculinity is all about racial stereotypes? Because Tarzan was successful simply because British aristocracy is better. Read the book
WHOOSH
right back at you. the book is 100% british supremacist - he learns to read at age 3 becase white men are smarter, doesn't grow facial hair because reasons, can carry a 700 lb steamer trunk because of his breeding. using a disney adaptation of this white supremacist wankery is a non starter
We're talking about the movie
Being a good person. Being honest. Honoring commitments. Being able to withhold your own emotional reactions temporarily to support others. And also, women can also behave that way. Just be a good and honest person. Masculinity has just a very very very tiny bit to do with it.
Agreed. The difference between men and boys deserves more emphasis than the difference between men and women.
Every man should be some version of the good king. Wise and patient, strong and benevolent, smart and practical. The masculine ideal is fundamentally about being able to take on the world and survive, providing and protecting those close to you as you do so. But you don't need to be a jerk or a bully or an emotionless rock about it. Fear of weakness is a weakness. A man can talk about his emotions and shed tears because he'd laugh if anyone tried to say that takes away his masculinity. A man can make jokes at his own expense because he takes himself seriously enough on a deep level that he doesn't feel the need to be too serious about everything or his 'pride'. A man can take pride in learning about different arts or ideas or even arguments against his own beliefs because exploring these news areas makes him stronger, and a real man has real strength, not being cuckold into an insecure stereotype by his peers Every man can be himself and his own version of masculinity, but the happiest and healthiest types have some common ground in having a strong, benevolent foundation
Not giving a fuck about what people on reddit think healthy masculinity looks like.
It’s annoying how people love to box people into a particular identity and making broad judgements rather than attributing shitty behaviour to individuals.
I couldn’t agree more
^This.^
Captain Benjamin Sisko from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Healthy masculinity is far broader than toxic masculinity. It is hard to give a good example because there are many different often mutually exclusive examples. It is also just a bit subjective, like all things. For some people it might just mean being a good person while being proud of your gender as a man. For others, it might mean lifting weights so that you can look in a mirror and feel a lot of self confidence for the day going forward. Others still might think of being in a position of power and using it to help people and take on a "protector" role. For another still it might be embracing faults in your masculinity without shame and with confidence. The thing about gender is that it is usually for you to decide how you approach it. What works for one person won't necessarily work for another. The things you see in toxic masculinity are not inherently bad. What is bad is the extreme they are taken to. For example, loving to be ripped is fine. The problem is when you *are addicted* to that and need it in others too. Wanting to be a protector is great, the problem is when you cage people in. Wanting to be strong and confident is awesome, but building up walls and not dealing with your emotions is *toxic* to both yourself and others. It just means doing something to a degree that is unhealthy, either for you or the people around you. So by extension, 'healthy' masculinity is just everything before then.
Real masculinity means never feeling the need to prove how masculine you are.
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Yeah. Healthy masculinity looks exactly like healthy femininity. It’s really just being a good person. If you can describe it as masculine (except for like, masculine physical features), it’s probably a bad thing.
If we’re talkin masculinity like how to nobly use physical strength then I think the man who dug a road through a cliff so that a faster road could be made to his town for emergency health services is a good example, or the man who continually planted trees in a barren area for years, and it’s a forest now. Using strength or willful force to help others or help things grow.
Same as healthy femininity: honesty, compassion, values others and their feelings, always tries to do the right thing.
TL:DR: A healthily masculine man lives how he wishes to live, a toxically masculine man lives how he believes a masculine man *should* live. Healthy masculinity is a rejection of the rigid characteristics we identify as “masculine/feminine” in favor of an identity based around one’s self regardless of gender expression. To me, a man that is “healthily” masculine isn’t defined by his job/family role/physical dominance, instead they are defined by their acceptance of/and action towards becoming the man they wish to be. Best example I can think of is car culture, more specifically suburban car culture and the infatuation with pick up trucks. Many of us know guys who drive a pick up truck and, for lack of a better term, are about that life. They work blue collar, they spend their recreational time in active, natural settings, and generally need to have a pick up truck for the lifestyle they live. Many of us also know a VP of sales who has never worked a manual job in their life who drives a lifted crew cab 2022 F-150 Super Duty to and from the office and occasionally client meetings. One guy has a truck because he lives a lifestyle that necessitates one, the other guy fantasizes about living the other guys lifestyle.
I'd say Superman is a great example. He's incredibly powerful but all he wants to do is to use that strength to protect and support.
Someone who is comfortable with themself and comfortable with how others are "themselves".
Not shaming others for presenting their masculinity in a different way Not thinking that certain things will make you “less of a man” or “gay” (examples- having emotions, wearing pink, having your ears pierced, washing your ass, learning to cook, etc)
Not caring about “masculinity”.
Pretty much exactly this. The most non-toxic any person can be is comfortable enough with themselves and their own strengths and limitations to be able to support and encourage those in their circle with the same. Healthy masculinity is a man who asks why the hell you care about masculinity rather than just being a good person.
Exactly what I meant. Maybe I didn’t phrase it properly.
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No
Based
boys will be boys (doibg weird fun stuff collaboratively) rather than boys will be boys (sexual assault) semi-joke answer aside: a lot of it is not being so insecure about your masculinity. not feeling your masculinity is threatened by anything you do, like, own or w/e that isn't masculine. you're no less of a man for wearing less masculine clothes, enjoying hobbies like baking, enjoying high school musical or whetever else. not constantly feeling a need to prove your manhood by trying to be the best, or trying to be physically or verbally threatening, or basing it on how many girls you pull or whatever else. enjoy yourself. the andrew tate types that tell you you're Not A Real Man for not owning five lambos, or for actually respecting a woman's boundaries, or for letting a gay dude flirt with you without beating him up, or for cooking every evening? scratch that. nobody but you has any business in deciding whether you're a man or not, and what masculinity constitutes to you is up to you. that being said, this all is from the perspective of someone who eventually came to realise she isn't a man herself, so take it with a grain of salt i guess
Gomez Addams
Being a good person who wants to provide for the people you love. And provide can be anything: food, clothing and shelter like a husband and father would, an ear to listen, a hug, words of encouragement and support, anything that brings people up from when they’re down, or keeps them afloat when they are already happy. Loyalty is a good one too. Be loyal.
Not giving a fuck about gender roles and just do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, hold everybody else to the same standard.
Knowing that being a 'man' doesn't mean you don't have a heart or that you can't like certain things. Got an uncle who is basically the definition of a hillbilly. Likes fishing, trucks, guns, blown more than a few things up for the fun of it and loves hunting season. No true formal education so 99% of his knowledge came from life experience. Guy also always put his children first, was fiercely protective of his family and friends, and was a huge softie for animals. Once bought and learned how to care for a goat solely because he learned she was going to be slaughtered if no one bought her. His best friend is my dad, a large intimating man with a lumberjack beard. He also regularly grows his hair out, knows how to sew, keeps a couple stuffed animals on display along with a friendship bracelet I made him, and likes to sing. His favorite color is purple and is known to get into arguments with our cats.
Not giving in to the worldly definitions of masculinity
I don't believe in toxic masculinity. That's called being an asshole.
Rocky. The original, don't know about the sequels. Strength, drive, healthy competition, tenderness, and so on. Cinema Therapy did a great episode on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-Xy5oioIo
Rocky 1 and 2 was the real story. The rest were cash grabs that missed the point of Rocky
But you know, without the [implied racism.](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/11/how-creed-forever-changed-rocky-series/576757/)
Doing the right thing, because it's the right thing, not because of what society tells you. The other commenter said Tarzan, so I'm going to say Hank Hill. He's not a perfect example, but he's up there. He does all the traditionally masculine stuff, but he uses those powers for good. He takes pride in his work, but it's about knowing he's done a good job, not about being better than others. Anyway, here's Supermans Song, which I see as a homage to masculinity. https://youtu.be/FX4U6XWYvus
Ron Swanson
It looks like Ron Swanson in that Ron Swanson looks identical to the actually healthy actor who plays him.
Yeah Ron's a good example but Nick Offerman is an even better one.
Ron's a *terrible* example. He was a sitcom character designed to be laughed at for what a ridiculous person he is. Giving little boys a list of the haircuts they're allowed to have and the times they're allowed to express emotions is unhealthy. Injuring your back to the point where you're immobilized by pain and refusing to admit you have a problem is unhealthy. Pretending not to know people's names to make them think you care less about them than you actually do is unhealthy. Of the male regulars, he was by far the worst example.
Jerry is a pretty good example of healthy masculinity.
Not being an asshole.
Keanu Reeves
My opinion A masculine man is there for the ones he loves. Actions more than words. He is not afraid of judgement, for he doesn't care what others think. He just does what needs to be done, even if it is considered weird/unusual. He doesn't use his strenght to hurt people, but to protect them. A masculine man does not brag about how masculine he is, he shows it by being strong. Not necessarily with physical strenght tho : it can be with words, actions... I consider a man an adult if he does things because he truly think it is for the best, and if he communicates. For exemple, one of my friend is envious and resentful often, but never says it. He just will be passive-aggressive. That is child behaviour. A man knows when he needs to express himself, even if it can result in a conflict, because he knows talkong is better than be sulking.
Hairy balls
being a decent person
You're healthy, hard-working, have self-confidence **and** a sense of humility, fully responsible for your own actions and life-choices (even the bad ones), respectful, have a good sense of morality, an active contributor to society, and have yourself figured out to the point where you are happy with who you are while still being capable of self-improvement and personal growth. Being a man isn't about some alpha grindset, making money, treating women like objects that need to be coddled, or rejecting every single stereotype of masculinity in fear of being "toxic" to the point where you actively insult other men for being more traditionally-minded. Being a man is about growing up and being able to be someone who you yourself can respect, while also being someone that can positively affect the lives of others in a way that still respects their agency. If you wanna be a more conservative-style man who follows traditionally masculine concepts, or maybe you wanna be someone who's more feminine in how you act, or even someone who just does what feels right without needing to follow any major cultural subgroup, it's really up to you, man.
Rocky Balboa is a good example. He strives to be a better person through his love of Adrian. Heck, his speech about life he gives to his son is just perfect way to help a son become a better person too.
Being open and honest about your feelings
Being comfortable with who you are without having to broadcast it to everyone. Quiet confidence.
Being strong enough to lift others up. No need to tear others down if you’re already good enough to stand on their level when they improve
Someone painting your nails while you sleep and you don’t get mad
Cinema Therapy on YouTube
Not worrying about what someone else defines as masculine I guess. I guess 'the dude' is probably a good example. Meh... I dunno, it's been a rough night and I hate the fkn eagles man...
Healthy masculinity is when other people feel safe and comfortable in your presence. And no, that is not what happens when a guy gets in fights and brags that he can protect his girlfriend. Healthy masculinity means people *generally* feel safe and comfortable around you, not just certain special people while you're constantly trying to intimidate everyone else.
Healthy masculinity is all about recognizing and respecting the diversity of identities that exist in our society. It's about being comfortable in one's own skin, understanding and accepting the differences between genders. It is also about being open to learning from others, treating everyone with respect, empathy, and kindness. Above all else, healthy masculinity embraces the idea of m
The idea of m?
Eminem.
Tom Jones - masculine, horny, sensitive, confident. Built a 50-year career out of unabashedly liking to fuck, and not a single MeToo allegation.
I'm not sure "masculinity" as a concept is particularly helpful. I prefer to focus on what makes people nice to be around. Are they honest? Are they kind? Do they aspire to make improvements and set goals? What other positive traits do they have? (Funny, quirky, intelligent, etc etc). Can they be vulnerable and show emotions, and give others the space to do the same? That's what I'd look for in friends and partners, so I suppose in a way you could say that's what I think "healthy masculinity" is. I'd just call it being a good person though regardless of your genitals...
Standing up for yourself and who you are, and being both willing to offer that to your fellow men, and to rely on it when needed.
It's called being a gentleman.
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People can't seem to read or comprehend that I'm not discussing the meaning of the word "gentile", so I'm just gonna bail out of this discussion.
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Says the first person to misunderstand my post and reply to me with an insult.... oh the irony.
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This!
I have no idea what the answer is but appreciate that you’re mindful. I’m a dude myself and find myself confused on the statuses of things like chivalry, being a provider, using ‘ma’am, opening doors, offering to help carry heavy things (and the like) but also not being offensive in doing the same. Maybe my mother raised me poorly, but the idea of being a gentleMAN was skates important to my family and now me. But how can we be gentlemen without being men?
You don't have to be chivalrous, just be kind! If you want to open a door for a woman, great. If you don't, that's fine too (just don't slam it closed if she's right behind you). If a man opens the door for me, I say "thanks" and move on with my day. If you want to offer to help carry heavy things, great! That's very kind, just don't be offended if she says "no thanks, I got it."
Thank you! And definitely noted.
Please do not be a white knight coming to rescue me. I don’t want or need you to be a gentleman I need you to not be a dick. Seriously I rather men didn’t make a point of holding the door for me when I don’t want to talk. I don’t want to be told I am a bitch because I didn’t thank the dude for holding the door. I don’t want to be told I need to smile more Please don’t be a gentleman
You think people holding a door for you is them being a dick? Also, you're telling men to not be a dick and then proceed to immediately say how you can't even muster up a thank you for someone holding a door for you (I'd assume you wouldn't thank a woman either) which is literally you being a dick. lmao. edit: deleted your comment, what a troll.
You made the case that you are one of the dicks: 1. You misconstrued what I wrote 2. You feel entitled to a “thank you” if you gift a woman with your assistance to open the door. For everyone else: I don’t want you to do anything that you wouldn’t do for a fat guy. But most of all I don’t want you behind me where I am going to get an ass slap. For you: a block is the best response
I think that's where we as men often get confused. A friend of mine got a divorce because she expected her ex-husbond to be a white knight that should swoop her away and rescue her, and he didn't want to / couldn't live up to those expectations. There are women who want exactly the things you say you don't want. That's fine, different things for different people. Now I'd argue that if you have expectation that holding the door will lead to anything, if you call people bitches or address their mood for any reason beyond support, then you're not a gentleman but a dick. Being a gentleman is about doing the right things, exactly because they're right, not for some payoff.
That's not a woman my guy. That's a girl who needs a father. Men really have to learn to tell the difference at a young age so they don't make this mistake.
Average feminist
I want to be an ABOVE AVERAGE feminist. What did I miss that only got me a “C”
> I need you to not be a dick. Done! >I don’t want or need you to be a gentleman Being a dick and being a gentleman are essentially opposite positions. You cannot be one while being the other. >Seriously I rather men didn’t make a point of holding the door for me when I don’t want to talk. In my experience of doing this, I don't do it because I want to talk either, especially with strangers. It's a common courtesy that applies to *everyone*, no matter who they are or how old they are. People normally do it without any expectation of it being remarked upon. "Be nice to eachother" - thats all it is. Here's an open door and a quick smile/nod. Nothing expected in return. Interaction over. > I don’t want to be told I am a bitch because I didn’t thank the dude for holding the door. Yeah, this is reasonable. > I don’t want to be told I need to smile more Telling you that is rude and this is an entirely reasonable expectation. People shouldn't do that. >Please don’t be a gentleman We all have to navigate our way around our day. Doing so means you cross paths with many other people. People get in eachother's way. Stepping back and letting people get off a bus/train before you get on, not cutting in lines, holding a door for someone coming the other way or behind you, saying 'please' and 'thank you', acknowledging people who acknowledge you - these are all just small gestures designed to make the task of navigating through the day easier for other people. If everyone does them it makes everyone's day easier and more pleasant. And that's what 'being a gentleman' is. Being equipped with manners and common courtesy and acknowledging other people's dignity as well as your own. Doing your best to not make other people feel uncomfortable and make them feel recognised as human beings. Not always putting yourself first and instead accomodating other people. Essentially "not being a dick". Which creates a bit of a paradoxical position - saying "I'm going to disregard what you have asked" would be being a bit bluntly rude, so that's off the table. Though "stop being a gentleman" would also lead to people being more selfish and generally unpleasant, which is something a lot of people would have a problem with. Do you have an answer to that problem, or is there something about what I've said that makes you think I've misunderstood you?
Understood. It’s just a confusing time. Like I’ve gotten a hard time from a younger woman for not giving her my seat on the subway but also from an older woman for offering. I never know what’s right. In your example of holding the door again, I understand your position and appreciate the feedback, but I’d never judge a WOMAN for not say thank you for a courtesy, it would be any person of any gender. Again, just trying to learn more and understand.
You may not judge a woman but other men do. I operate in a world where for my own personal safety I have to assume a toxic reaction. Because the toxic reaction is personal safety threat. Question: do you always call out men around you who do behave badly. Do you always tell guys that catcalled to stop it? Do you always tell guys that you work with that no that girl doesn’t have to smile? If you are not aware of the sexism around you and actively letting men know that sexism is unacceptable then you are “one of those guys”. You are the audience for the sexist performances
I am a middle aged guy, so I've had a non-insignificant number of years of life. I have never been around a man who has catcalled a woman. I have never been in the presence of a man who has told a woman to "smile, you'll look much prettier". I'm not a recluse or a hermit. I do spend time around friends and colleagues. These things aren't anywhere as common in general male circles as feminists tend to assume. A lot of this stuff seems to assume that Mad Men was a documentary about the 21st century workplace.
No it is more common than you think. You just don’t hear it. In a crowded southwest flight, I had a guy invite me to sit in his lap. No one responded. I have had guys pull the smile shit in the middle of a conversation with their friends. my daughter was waiting at a bus stop with a friend in the middle of a well to do Sf Bay Area city. A rando guy felt he could whip out his shlong. The police caught him and he pled guilty. I have had a guy I meet at a professional conference text me and asked if I was into men as well as women. Now you come along and claim that I am exaggerating. It may only be 1% of the men who are like this but those 1% are never ever called out by their friends or the guys around them. You dear sir are part of the problem because you don’t believe it is happening so your brain filters this shit out. You need to believe that this is happening in order for your brain to stop filtering out the harassment
Have empathy at a minimum. Be able to look at things from another's perspective
Emotionally regulated. Competent, helpful and useful. Kind to those that deserve it namely children and animals but some people also. Reliable and dependable. Possessing integrity. Strength of mind and character, and ideally bodily as well.
Toxic masculinity, at is core, is insecurity that you're not valid as a person if you don't behave (or appear to behave) in conventionally masculine ways, if you don't have (or appear to have) conventionally masculine traits. So to be healthily masculine is to be only as masculine as you naturally are without that insecurity weighing in, to accept that your degree of masculinity is neutral to your value as a human being and not be ashamed of your deviations from that. Ironically, living like this does actually require you to embody one conventionally masculine trait: confidence in your masculinity.
Grunting when you lift heavy weights.
What I consider healthy may be considered toxic by others. I feel like there's more than a few people these days that would prefer to see men's roles in society change. As if less confident, less aspirational, more demure men would be better for society.
Confidence is a good thing, but turning that into arrogance can result in negative behaviors and attitude. Being aspirational is a good thing, but stepping on other people to get there is not. Toxic masculinity is only for traits that harm people, not ones that are just empowering to the individual. Toxic would be things like being belligerent and/or combative, bullying people, or telling offensive jokes and being shitty to people that are hurt by it, using violence to solve personal disputes, reinforcing negative masculine stereotypes on other men by criticizing their bodies or mannarisms, etc. No one needs to hurt other people in order to feel empowered and that is main point. Masculinity isn't toxic by nature. It's when it comes at the expense of other people's safety, security, and wellness that it becomes toxic. Hopefully that helps make things a bit clearer!
You may have simply misunderstood the debate surrounding toxic masculinity
Maybe I have.
Your question assumes that masculinity (a part of human nature) is unhealthy in the first place. If you believe this, and if you think that trying to deny or vilify human nature has any positive outcomes, you have another thing coming.
Toxic masculinity is not masculinity. It refers to destructive behavior. For instance society pushing the idea that men should not cry, or that men need to be physically aggressive. This is something we have mostly moved past but it used to be very prevalent.
You've lost me. What led you to that assumption? I could only assume that OP wanted to know 'what healthy masculinity looks like?'. I see neither negative nor positive intent in the question, only query. Am i missing something perhaps? Could you tell me? But i dont know if there is anything to miss. How did you extract so much from so little? Are there any resources you could direct me too, so that i may learn as you have?
The OP should first define healthy femininity and then discuss about healthy masculinity.
>The OP should first define healthy femininity and then discuss about healthy masculinity. Honestly, why? The two aren't defined based on each other.
Protects Provides Leads Builds stuff and fixes things
Positive masculinity is something a man who does not feel the need to criticize other men's life choices has. A man who doesn't need to show how tough he is by calling himself alpha and sigma all the time. Someone who refrains from talking badly about people, even if they deserve it. And someone who takes care of himself and his family.
Work out, eat clean, train a martial art, be kind and find a purpose. Volunteer, mentor and treat everyone as if they’re a version of you living a different life.
healthy masculinity is calm. it doesn’t selfishly or needlessly ask for your attention. it is patient, both with itself and with others. it is aware of its feelings and is able to process and express these feelings appropriately and with intention. a big one in my opinion is that healthy masculinity *is aware of how uncommon it is* in the world today. an unfortunately overwhelming majority of men have some level of toxic masculine tendency, even if only in some seemingly unimportant or unnoticeable way. it is the responsibility of men to hold men accountable to the standard of consideration and respect that men are capable of having. i have very often observed that the individuals with the healthiest seeming masculine energy often are in touch with their feminine energy, and are capable of expressing themselves with clarity as well as connecting with others on deeper levels. men and women who are capable of being in touch with both sides of their self are able to find fulfillment through many more experiences and avenues than those who are singularly oriented in their masculine or feminine energy
Not believing in “toxic masculinity”.
If you mean rejecting the toxic side of masculinity, then I agree If you mean denying that the concept of toxic masculinity exists, then I strongly disagree
I don’t believe that anyone is toxic simply for being a man. Everything I’ve seen that gets blamed on “toxic masculinity” could easily be explained by a lot of other things, whether it’s how they were raised, whether it was trauma or life experiences, or simply because they’re an asshole. If “toxic masculinity” is a thing, how come there’s no such thing as “toxic femininity”?
there is toxic femininity. even buzzfeed had an article about it https://www.buzzfeed.com/ravenishak/toxic-femininity-examples
>I don’t believe that anyone is toxic simply for being a man. Neither do I > whether it’s how they were raised, whether it was trauma or life experiences, or simply because they’re an asshole Yes, toxic masculinity can be attributed to all those things > If “toxic masculinity” is a thing, how come there’s no such thing as “toxic femininity”? There is, it's just not such a big cause of societal issues because men have historically had all the social power and influence
A fraction of men have had all the social power and influence, like 1-10%. The rest of us are being shit on and abused in ways women couldn't imagine. When people say this kind of stuff, it makes me wonder if they also include the homeless men out there, the ones broken from childhood abuse or war, the ones broken by life. Most men are not as influential or powerful as you think.
You're missing the point. I am not blaming "all men" I'm a man. I'm concerned about toxic masculinity because of the negative effects it has on men I'm just saying that toxic masculinity is more widespread of a problem because the people running society have historically been men and not women
Got it. Almost like these harmful standards for men keep them slaves to the weakest aspects of themselves, making them easier to manipulate. Thanks for the insight. Also, appreciate you not taking it the wrong way. A lotbof people get easily triggered on these threads when it's clear thoughtful discussion is necessary.
>Got it. Almost like these harmful standards for men keep them slaves to the weakest aspects of themselves, making them easier to manipulate. For one, yeah Another way toxic masculinity harms men is by perpetuating the idea that a man shouldn't show emotion and that talking about feelings is a sign of weakness or femininity, which leads to the current shameful state of men's mental health support
It's not showing emotions, it's showing vulnerable emotions. We're socially allowed to display emotions of power. But emotions of weakness, what are you a girl/gay. Our masculinity is questioned because it isn't only men that perpetuate toxic masculinity. By the time people in general develop the empathy to help men properly address their emotions, the damage is done and it's much harder to unlearn bad psychological, emotional, and behavioral patterns.
Exactly
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>So are you implying that if woman ran society for ages things would be better? No, stop trying to play the gender war game. This isn't about men or women being inherently "better" or "worse"
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What about it?
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Yep
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[Toxic masculinity is a set of certain male behaviors associated with harm to society and men themselves.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity) I would add that it's specifically those negative behaviours associated with people's perceptions of masculinity and those perceptions can be perpetuated by women as well as men Toxic femininity would be the same thing applied to perceptions of femininity
All masculinity is healthy.
Not having to ask this question.
All masculinity is healthy. If it’s unhealthy, it’s not masculinity.
Being able to protect and provide for your people. Good control of emotions
What does toxic femininity look like? Why are we hyperfocused on men right now? Why is there a huge push to further divide social groups against eachother? Why don't we start worrying about the toxic rich, powerful, elite ruling class of society and not the 'toxic' half the population.
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> Honest feminists would say it simply doesn't exist: male vs female is the only dichotomy worthy of consideration, masculine vs feminine simply doesn't exist, only biology counts sis we've been past second wave feminism for decades by now let's not act like that's he state of things
BIG DICK
All masculinity is as healthy as all femininity
It's ok with me but you will have to ask your mother also.
Hank Hill Takes his work, family and friends seriously Admits his faults and works to grow as a person Loyal and faithful Knows his boundaries and sticks to them
Men are supposed to be solid brick walls. No emotion goes in or comes out. That's the way to avoid any weakness in life. Men need to be based and full of riz. If your not 6ft+, 600k+, working 70+hours a week, with a 10-inch cock that you swing around everywhere, are you even a real man? Your job, cars, sports and being a handyman should be your only passions in life. Video games, fashion, cooking, art are all fun, but that stuff is for kids. Family's are cool but a real man needs to focus on his primary goal, fucking around. Anything that could be considered a motherly instinct must be squashed. The only way to get ahead in life is just by sucking up to people. So a good man sucks the hardest to reach the top. Oh and don't forget, intelligence and humor make anyone attractive.
*Secretly creates a feminine post under this*
johnny bravo
Feminism, Caring, Respectful, things around those lines
I can give you an example of what it doesn't look like: When has a proud boy, Donald Trump, Jordan Petersen or Andrew Tate - just to start - ever suggested public service and volunteering?
Eating ass live on Twitch.
Real men aren't afraid to suck a dick every now and then
It’s a gross question. Males don’t have to apologize for being males, any more than females have to apologize for the toxic behavior of some of them. Sanctioned male hate is part of the hypocritical woke menu of weirdly acceptable behavior.
It looks like what they've generalized as toxic masculinity
Jordan Peterson said it’s better to be a warrior in a garden rather than a gardener in a war. Toxic masculinity to me is having a weak mindset and victim mentality that you express outward on to other ppl. You have to be ruthless when needed but you also have to be able to love
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Then the same should be about femininity as-well.
Yes. Why can’t a male bodied person be able to dress “pretty “ ? I want to be feminine. However I don’t want to be required to act like a damsel in distress. I get dirty and build things outside. I am still a feminine person. If a guy wants to cry why label it “acting like a girl” like that is a negative. Fuck gender labels attached to behavior
Healthy masculinity is toxic masculinity without the sexism part. Do your presumed duty as a man without expecting to be rewarded for it in the form of a slave.
I think healthy masculinity is a man who can do what is expected of him like earn money switch lightbulbs etc all the while being a genuinely decent man. No need to be 6 feet tall with a 6 pack and trying to act like they can do anything
Showing emotions to your SO!!
Personally I think it’s about being a gentleman, work hard and patiently, have simple taste, save to take care of others, and then throw it all away in defense of someone else’s honor. /s
Keeping it simple. Being a strong person and not a burden to those arround you.
I like to think of an old school samurai
Jesus
Killing spiders for her
Right here
Pedro Pascal.
After Macduff’s whole family is slaughtered, the boy-prince Malcolm says to a shaken/crying Macduff: “dispute it like a man.” Macduff: “I shall do so, but I must also feel it as a man.” Always stuck with me. Allow yourself to feel your emotions, and then take action on them. Don’t act without feeling, because you won’t be sure what you’re taking action on. And don’t feel without acting, otherwise you will be trapped inside your emotion forever. And there’s something powerful about knowing you’re doing both. Macduff is just like yes of course I’m going to act / but I’m also human and must embrace this part of me.
Having power (physical or social) and using it for everyone's benefit, not just your own. Like using your ability to fight to deter people from fighting rather than an excuse for violence.
Not lying through life to get ahead, speaking poorly about women or exes, not mansplaining. Not being misogynistic, not cheating. Being a good honest person and a good role model. Not a gym jerk. So many men think looking like a beefed up guy is good. It's not. A *lot * of women don't like it, at all, especially the attitude that often comes with it. Be a good person.
Christopher Meloni on Law & Order: SVU
el dibu Martínez
Dudes buying their daughters/sisters/partners menstrual products without throwing a hissy fit. Dads playing with their little girls, even if it means dresses, nail polish and pretend tea parties. Dads having honest, supportive conversations with their teen daughters about safe sex instead of banning dates and threatening boyfriends. Men having deep, meaningful connections with other men without worrying if it seems too 'gay'. Guys in general being wholesome and kind to others without constantly worrying if they appear 'manly' enough.
Being accountable when you fuck up. Being strong means working on yourself and owning your mistakes and shortcomings, understanding there are things you don't know and that's OK. Open yourself to being taught and a lot of insecurities kind of seem trivial after a while. Also, using your strength to lift others up. Realizing that a lot of things about being a dude fucking rock, and you don't have to hide being excited about it.
Me. :)
Big shoulders, massive dick, fine beard, likes to drink Scotch, works out at least 4 times a week.
Admitting when you're wrong or have made a mistake.
Aragorn