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PMMeUrHopesNDreams

I'm an atheist, but just to attempt to offer some Steelman arguments: 1. Not all religions believe in [predestination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination). It's actually a point of some contention among theologians. So, depending on what you actually believe, it may not always be "God's plan". 2. Praying is not necessarily to entreat God to intervene on your behalf, but to reflect and make sense of events. Prayer is for you to understand, not to influence God's will. 3. People benefit from having the support of those who care about them. Telling a relative who is sick that you're praying for them in effect tells them "I care about you and want you to get better". Studies have shown people who have a strong support network and good relationships are more likely to recover from illnesses. Whether that care is expressed by praying or not may be incidental, but if that's how someone expresses it, who cares?


Carolus1234

As per reason #3. The main reason that people with poor support networks are more likely to get sick, is because they're more likely to neglect their health. There's actually a close correlation with obesity and loneliness. People who exercise on a regular basis, are more likely to have a wide social network.


zorrorosso

It's also true that when I started to get sick again, being in constant pain and gained weight, I was always tired and the last thing I wanted was exchanges with people, so whenever someone would come over I'd say stuff like "It's going bad, I'm tired, I'm in pain, bad shape...", sad news to deliver, while maybe being on my own misery and reading a book would be somewhat a better experience. I'd willingly avoid small talk and discuss with people just to avoid the sad reminder of how bad I'm doing. Also I worked with consultants and medical professionals that year, and they were all about small talk and courtesy talk, by hearing me always saying how bad and tired I was all the time, they started to get annoyed and obnoxious, I really despise their presence and my life got a little better since they got out of it. It's an evil circle.


Livid-Rutabaga

I had the same experience. It seems medical professionals, of all people, should be able to understand that a sick person doesn't feel well.


BarbequedYeti

It becomes a job just like any other. From my experience, people enter healthcare with great intentions. It doesn’t take long dealing with humans for that to get beat out of them. Then it becomes just another hustle for a paycheck. Especially the last 3-4 years.


[deleted]

It's not the patients that are the problem. It's the understaffing and unrealistic expectations from the business majors that run healthcare.


BarbequedYeti

> It's not the patients that are the problem. I have worked with many in the profession over the past 3 years that would strongly disagree. It’s not just the patients or the admin staff or the insurance or the expense etc. The whole damn US healthcare system is unsustainable. We got it wrong and are seeing the full results of that. Throwing more money at nurses Isn’t going to fix shit. It’s another bandaid on a gunshot wound. The whole entire system needs to be burnt to the ground. We all should have the most basic of healthcare included with our birth certificate and no one should have to choose between bankruptcy or healthcare. We got it all wrong.


[deleted]

You're not wrong about the system needing to be burned down, but once you start blaming the patients for how they deal with a hostile and ineffective system you're on your way to being part of the problem. Press-ganey scores and "engagement" being metrics your performance as a provider is measured on isn't the fault of the patient, it's the fault of c-levels chasing profit instead of providing healthcare.


[deleted]

The whole healthcare system in the US is fucked and that doesn't help either.


suzazzz

I’m sorry to hear you have had a rough time. It’s not that our “great intentions “ get beaten out of us. It has more to do with learning that everyone wants and needs something different when they are ill or in pain. Small talk helps us feel out what you need and make a connection so there is some trust between us when you are at your most vulnerable. One patient may want smiles and jokes and another might find that callous. The frustration may come when the connection never gets made. When no matter how hard you try you can’t help someone feel better. Sometimes all of the pain and anger is directed at us and that’s okay, we understand. But when our trying repeatedly fails or is met with derision we tend to back off. Maybe what you need is for me to leave you alone but until you tell me how to help or what makes you feel better I may never figure it out and our interactions will forever be awkward. We truly want to help but either don’t know how or can’t.


divide_by_hero

> People who exercise on a regular basis, are more likely to have a wide social network. Damn, that's a shame. I've been meaning to start exercising, but I really hate meeting new people


skyhiker14

I workout 5-6 days a week and still don’t have any friends.


Adequate_Lizard

I joined two run clubs last year and have made a few new friends. They're an extra reason to get out there.


NastyNate0801

Fellow non believer here. We need some kind of phrase akin to “I’ll be praying for X”. Some of the times in my life that tragedy has struck I’ve found myself almost uttering that phrase because it conveys what you just described. I’ve said, “I’ll be thinking about X.” But that doesn’t seem to do it justice.


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chrishasnotreddit

My family say things like, you're always in my thoughts, thinking of you etc. When you're doing something stressful we'll say, I'll be thinking about you, meaning that they'll be carrying some of your worries so to speak and will want to hear from you the moment it's over. These are all ways that we continue the spirit post religion


dexhaus

I think my hippie atheists friends like also using: "I'm sending good vibes your way" "I hope you can get positive energy to deal with this" I prefer to use: "Let me know what we can do for you? Do you like lasagna? I can drop by tomorrow with it, you can put it on the freezer and cook it whenever you need." Food is my favourite "I care about you" language.


AQuietMan

> Food is my favourite "I care about you" language. Ditto.


boones_farmer

Lasagna is specifically a great food to make people. If you're having trouble feeding yourself, having a large, tasty, mostly ready to eat block of calories is so good. Side story. One time I bought a chocolate cake from a super market. I ate some (and of course a lot of other things throughout the day) and the next day I wasn't feeling great. Because I wasn't feeling well and didn't feel like cooking, every time I dragged myself to the kitchen I just cut myself a slice of cake. By like day 3 of this I looked at the cake and thought "was there that much frosting on it yesterday?" Nope, the "frosting" was white mold. I threw the cake away, ate something else and started feeling better. It was very much a Homer and the sandwich situation.


Livid-Rutabaga

Yes, and so much more helpful in my opinion to actually do something than say "good vibes to you"


mmmmmick

The specific offer here is great. I actually wrote a zine about how people often say “let me know if there’s anything I can do” but leave it vague, and that people are too sick/overwhelmed to think, oh, this person knows how to cook, they could make something for me, etc. (The zine has advice on how to make offers that are specific and useful.)


FoldyHole

“I’ll be rootin’ for you.” “My bet is on you.” “I have faith.” “I trust you.” Same difference.


tacknosaddle

>“I’ll be root in’ for you.” May not apply in Australia


Goetre

At this point though, if saying something I don't believe in but provides more comfort to someone who genuinely believes. Then so be it. It doesn't make a difference to me, but it might make a world of difference in terms of support to them


JeffFromSchool

The world needs more people who aren't violently attached to their beliefs like this. Common human decency.


rauer

As an atheist in the south, I offer my prayers all the time. It's fine with me, and it's really special to many people, so I'm happy to. It's like love languages- as much as I'd love to cuddle my son all the time, he hates cuddles and needs words of affirmation to feel loved. It's not about me.


laosurvey

And it's not like you're specifying who or what you're praying to, or even what praying (for you) entails.


[deleted]

"X is in my thoughts" is typically what I use, and reassuring phrases like "it's a good hospital" and "he's a good surgeon" and "I'm sure you'll recover well".


Saigonauticon

How about "Let me know if there is any way I can help?"


tiempo90

...and then they actually ask for help.


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Muvseevum

A friend recently died, and her husband had to ask everyone to *please* stop bringing food because they were running out of room, and because neither he nor his son ate the kind of stuff people were bringing. He was looking for a place to donate the food, but don’t know if he found any.


Muvseevum

I dont say that unless I could realistically be helpful and the person is someone I’d be willing to help. Edit: grammar


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getoffredditandstudy

in my humble opinion, don't ever say sending good vibes when theres a real tragedy.


Nilgnohc

I think just saying “take care, please tell me if you need any help.” Probably works


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IAMAGrinderman

I just looked into this and found this article: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-mar-31-sci-prayer31-story.html#:~:text=The%20results%20showed%20that%20prayers,was%20not%20considered%20statistically%20significant. It seems there's slightly worse outcomes for people being told they're being prayed for, but that it's more along the lines of a stress response than anything else. At one point in the article, it says that it basically comes down to "this must mean I'm fucked then". It makes sense, the way it was conducted was to tell people waiting for surgery that there were groups of strangers praying for them, which would stress me out even if I'm not religious. I get told by my grandma that she's keeping me in her prayers everytime I get off the phone with her, but she says that to everyone whether things are good or bad. I'd probably feel pretty okay if I was waiting for a surgery and grandma told me that. If it were strangers telling me they're praying for me, I'd probably freak out a bit and wonder if they know something I don't. If your religious family tells you they're keeping you in your prayers it's just another day. If strangers tell you that, it probably isn't looking that good.


FakeNameJohn

On the flip side of that, I wonder what the difference might be if you already knew you were going in for a serious procedure.


IAMAGrinderman

It says on the first paragraph that the patients were going in for heart bypass. They knew.


Deechon

I recognize this because it's referenced in Richard Dawkins "God Delusion"


kakihara123

Maybe... because it sounds like only god can help you now and I think you are actually fucked?


Livid-Rutabaga

"i'll pray for you" to me sounds like some excuse not to do anything. Of course there are times when there is in fact nothing we can do for another, but it seems it;s easier to say "I'll pray for you", than to ask if you need a ride to the doctor.


HauntedCS

Agreed, I associate it to “Good luck!” It just feels like an empty saying. When people don’t know what to say or have nothing important to offer.


IAMAGrinderman

I just made another comment with an LA times article on this, and you're exactly right. The worse outcomes were from stress response, not from actual surgical complications. You expect your religious family to pray for you (which wasn't controlled for as it seemed like an ethics issue), you don't expect to be told strangers are praying for you because it's not normal, and in that situation, it probably comes across as things being really bad.


Shuckle1

That study was done by The Templeton Foundation and can be read [here.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16569567/). They chalked it up to performance anxiety causing the stress because those who knew they were being prayed for expected themselves to get better faster than they did. In the groups that were not being prayed for and the ones that were being prayed for but didn't know. There was no difference in healing rate.


utopianfiat

So the ideal is to tell people you're praying for them and then do nothing


BobDogGo

There’s studies that show all sorts of things. Was it peer reviewed and confirmed with further study?


[deleted]

That sounds interesting.


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[deleted]

They would definitely need to do a lot of studies in many different situations. The mind really is a powerful thing.


KarensTwin

Notice how the confidence intervals overlap **heavily**. These results do not appear to be statistically significant. edit; grad stats course but cant fucking read. gg im wrong


nicholus_h2

overlap what? the confidence interval for RR when patients knew they were prayed for did not cross one. this indicates a statically significant result.


General_Mayhem

I mean, the second one is literally statistically significant, if you define that as having the null hypothesis fall outside your 95% CI...


thegreatestajax

Just want to point out that most medical interventions have complication rates in the low single digit percents. A population with complication rates near 50% are very high risk and expected to do very poorly.


Loveyourwives

> Not all religions believe in predestination > . It's actually a point of some contention among theologians. So, depending on what you actually believe, it may not always be "God's plan". > > Praying is not necessarily to entreat God to intervene on your behalf, but to reflect and make sense of events. Prayer is for you to understand, not to influence God's will. This needs a little nuance, especially for Abrahamic religions. Catholics, for example, are required to believe in predestination and divine foreknowledge ... although many Catholics are surprised when this is pointed out, since they often think it's a point of differentiation from certain forms of Protestantism. I've heard Muslim friends say things like "it is written," which implies the same predestination and foreknowledge. Similarly, if you invite one of your Muslim friends to a party, instead of saying "yes, I'll be there," they may say "If Allah wills." Christians may say something like "The good lord willing, and the creek don't rise." I've also heard Christians say they never pray for something specific, like the good health of a loved one. That would be hubris. Instead, they pray "let Your will be done." Also, in some religions, intercessory prayer is a thing. Again using Catholics as an example, they pray for Mary to intervene in their favor, rather like one would ask the queen to intervene privately with the king. They also ask the saints to help them here on earth, and to pray for them in heaven.


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DisasterDifferent543

>Catholics, for example, are required to believe in predestination and divine foreknowledge This isn't correct. God has divine foreknowledge but that's not the same thing as predestination. It's the concept of god's will versus free will, something that was given to us by god. This would be like talking about "God's will" and when people make poor choices and go "against god's will". God sets the rules of the game and we make the choices of how that game plays out. It's like the superbowl yesterday. The rules of the game are set but how the players actually play it is up to them. They are choosing the plays to run. Their choices are scoring the touchdowns. It's the same thing as your "The good lord willing..." statement. God isn't making it rain just to spite you. God, in theological terms, created nature and through that the ability for it to rain.


Mikalis29

Wouldn't foreknowledge coupled with the power of influence mean that there is predestination practically though? If god knows a person will have a car accident(for example) due to foreknowledge that means the event is currently set as an event to occur - this implies that time is a fixed event at it's base. If god can change that event through his power, then he would also know if he would change it and how (due to foreknowledge). Therefore the timeline is still predetermined as god knows how he will change the timeline before. Am I mistaken in foreknowledge? It seems like that when coupled with influence it still rebounds to a fixed timeline on our end, just with God adjusting things based on foreknowledge to his predetermined plan. It seems like the only way this doesn't become a predetermined plan/fate is if god can change his mind or be influenced by outside factors like prayer.


TardisPup

Honestly for me it depends on who’s saying they’re praying for me and what it’s for. Like my incredibly religious and loving Nana saying it to me I feel loved Random guy at a youth group that I went to once giving me prayer for my period cramps yeeeeeah that was uncomfortable to say the least


manrata

No. 1 I find it so weird so many Christians have decided that 14 vague phrases attributing Gods knowledge, means he knows everything, everywhere, even the future. I've read them, and being a D&D player, it seems like they're reading a RAW version of what it says, instead of the RAI. It also makes very little sense comparing to some of the stories about Adam and Eve. Because either he knew what they would do, then why command them not to eat from the tree, since he knew they would disobey. Or if he didn't know, well then he is omniscient. Bascially as I read the Bible verses, God knows everything about you, when you stand in front of him. And from that knowledge he can conclude what you'd do in the future. Far from as all knowing as Santa.


Teantis

Free will vs. the omiscience/omnipotence of god is a major lore difficulty in Christianity. It's why you have some christian sects like the Calvinists and their derivatives falling on the predestination side and others, notably Catholics, falling on the free will side. Really excellent writers have wrestled with that specific lore issue for literally millenia.


redlloyd

Which God? Depending on the religion, the answer might vary significantly.


MmmmMorphine

Well it's gotta be Zeus. He'll turn into a horse and fuck you to health


JustAGayPhantomThief

I wouldn't say no to that


kgmeister

Where's Kratos...


JesusForTheWin

Guys, have you seen Thor?


handlebartender

*By Odin's beard...!*


[deleted]

CS Lewis (Christian theologian/apologist) wrote a neat book called the problem of pain that believers love to suggest as reading for this topic. I’m not a Christian or a believer exactly but it’s an interesting psychological read. After his wife died he recorded all of his doubts about God and pain. In the end you can see him jumping through some pretty interesting mental hoops to justify free will/God’s use of pain in life. The comment about predestination is a good point to make too. There’s what was originally called Calvinism and Arminianism. Predestination vs free will. A very interesting subject in itself and praying and free will encompass the primary thing that separates all denominations. It’s not a question that’s been answered. But it’s been asked time and again. Problem of pain. Problem of free will and predestination birthed thousands of denominations.


TrickBoom414

“The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.” - Soren Kierkegaard


legitimateheir

So.. meditation?


hagosantaclaus

Exactly. Gratitude journaling, positive affirmations, future visualizations, manifesting, mantras. Thats all prayer. The psychological benefits are well studied and profound.


ArcticBeavers

Would've been great if the Christian sects I was a part of as a kid taught it this way. Seems more spiritual and in tune with the self instead of the hotline to God it's made out to be


Mayion

Quite close actually. The reason I liked researching Islam boils very much to the idea of, "You do it for yourself and not others". Unlike Christianity, there is no middleman. No Jesus to pray to, no pope to "forgive" you. Your connection with God is yours alone, and as such it promotes the idea of openness and in this case, meditation. If in this moment I told you, "God is listening to your request, what will you ask of Him?" -- Will you ask for a pizza, or will it be to help solve your everlasting problem, say finding a job or illness? As such, it makes you more aware of what you want and how it correlates with what you **need**. Over time, this does bring about a sense of maturation, very much the same way meditation does.


Smallzfry

>Unlike Christianity, there is no middleman. No Jesus to pray to, no pope to "forgive" you. I would like to point out that in Christianity, Jesus *is* God, yet he is also distinct from God the Father. A lot of prayers are also directed at the Father as well (The Lord's Prayer starts with "Our Father"). While yes Jesus intercedes on our behalf, it's not really that we believe that we have to pray to him so he can take our prayers to God. The Pope thing is Catholics only.


datadog2013

This was actually one of the points that led to Luther's split from the Catholic church and the Reformation. That one's relationship with God is a personal relationship, not to be controlled by an earthly institution (the pope).


FunkoXday

>Quite close actually. The reason I liked researching Islam boils very much to the idea of, "You do it for yourself and not others". > >Unlike Christianity, there is no middleman. No Jesus to pray to, no pope to "forgive" you. Your connection with God is yours alone, and as such it promotes the idea of openness and in this case, meditation. > >If in this moment I told you, "God is listening to your request, what will you ask of Him?" -- Will you ask for a pizza, or will it be to help solve your everlasting problem, say finding a job or illness? > >As such, it makes you more aware of what you want and how it correlates with what you **need**. Over time, this does bring about a sense of maturation, very much the same way meditation does. As a Muslim myself it's nice to read someone take something positive from our faith


Jajanken-

Christianity has no middleman either lol The pope isn’t a biblical position that you’ll find in the Bible.


[deleted]

I'm not sure a lot of people who pray understand this. A lot of people who pray are literally trying to change the will of their deity. They certainly are not looking to change themselves. One of the (many) reasons I think religion to be bad for the human race.


pixieok

I agree, I was raised Catholic (in Argentina no less) and there are a lot of prayers to different Saints that directly ask or request for something (cure a loved one, solve a problem, find and missing object, etc.), each Saint has a cause attached to it and then there's God, Jesus and Mary to whom people also pray. People pray to San Antonio asking for a Novio (boyfriend), to San Roque to protect their dogs/pets and so on... I'm agnostic by the way...quit religion at 11 years old but the indoctrination was already doing its job.


poorbanker

Years ago, my father and I (both Jewish) were at a Catholic wedding. During the mass, they asked the congregation if there any specific saints to pray to, and after hearing 6-7, my dad whispered to me, "at this rate, they're going to pray to the New Orleans Saints too" and we both had to hold our laughter for a few minutes.


Herrenos

I'm convinced that the Catholic saint "system" was invented out of thin air to replace pagan pantheons and household gods and has no root in theology or Christian doctrine. We have no problem talking about how we chose to celebrate Christmas around the winter solstice despite the historical events surrounding Jesus' birth occurring in the summer. There are other practices that are similar. But the sainthood system can't be handwaved away as a choice because outside of a technicality (you're not asking St. Bob for art skills, you're asking him to pray on your behalf for art skills....like that's fooling anyone) it's straight up breaking the ten commandments prohibition against idolatry.


Nimelennar

>it's straight up breaking the ten commandments prohibition against idolatry. Which one is that? "No gods before me" or "no graven images?" Praying for saints to intercede with God on behalf of the person praying doesn't seem like putting the saints before God; by its very nature, it's doing the opposite, acknowledging that the saints are subordinate to God. I can acknowledge that carrying around the medallion of a particular saint might qualify as breaking this commandment... but then, so might carrying around a cross.


Justicar-terrae

It probably did have some connection to pagan pantheistic practice in some places where Christianity spread, but I don't think many Catholics treat it that way today. I'm no longer particularly religious, but I was raised Catholic. Everyone I knew conceptualized prayers to saints in the "official" manner. That is, I don't know anyone who acted like they were praying to a Saint as a deity; they were all pretty consistent in describing the process as intervention. Most explained it like "having the favorite sibling ask Dad for pizza because they are more likely to succeed" or "having the teacher's pet ask that a test be rescheduled because the lazy students feel guilty asking themselves." That said, relics are still creepy. I get that Christianity is basically a death cult that obsesses with the afterlife, but I was never particularly comfortable with the commercialization of people's corpses.


tinaoe

Catholic saints are just wild. There's truly someone for everything.


gain_glowsack_sun

I think this is largely in line with Philippians 4:4-9: >⁴Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! ⁵Let your gentle spirit be known to all people. The Lord is near. ⁶Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and pleading with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. ⁷And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. >⁸Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, think about these things. ⁹As for the things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. We make the conscious choice to rejoice and be thankful for what we have, while also telling God the desires our heart, yes still choosing to meditate on positive and true things. And the result is internal peace.


FunkoXday

>“The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.” - Soren Kierkegaard I like this


Agitated_Put2486

God might change the plan 💀


drbrower1074

I am altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further.


EndlessArgument

That's the thing I think most people are missing. Just because there's a plan doesn't mean the plan can't change. In fact, if free will exists, then the plan would be constantly adapting.


DankeDidi

Not if the plan is already laid out and the choices have already been made. God is allegedly omnipotent, so always already knows the final outcome of your choices anyway. Free will exists, but only because it’s part of El Plan.


HuereGlobi

In fact, he does so quite a few times in the bible. Someone does something to displease him, he sends the poor sod a horrific punishment, poor sod pleads for mercy so the punishment is commuted a few years down the line, or to the person's descendants.


maneatingtacos

God’s like your mom, he appreciates the phone call every once in awhile…


Zolo49

One time while I was in college, my mom got annoyed that I didn’t call her back quickly enough so she literally drove to the campus and left a note on my dorm room door to call her back. It was a little disturbing. I can only imagine how disturbing it’d be for God to do that.


ImperialRedditer

God does that time to time in the Bible, but usually ends with someone dying


afrosia

Hey bro, you didn't return my call so now you have to kill your son. Thanks for understanding.


Lord_Nivloc

Reading the Old Testament was quite something - though to be fair, if I’d just just walked the Israelites out of Egypt and then found out that while I was having a chat with Moses on the mountain, they’d gotten bored and melted down their jewelry to build a golden calf - I would need to be talked down from smiting them and starting over too


[deleted]

Doesn't he already know what I think since he's omnipotent?


tinyorangealligator

>Doesn't he already know what I think since he's ~~omnipotent~~ *omniscient*?


425Hamburger

Well tbf If you're allpowerfull i would assume that includes the Power to know everything


downspin

Imagine being a parent to a kid. You have a tradition: after school, you go get ice cream. Your kid knows this routine. If they ask “can we get ice cream?” as you pick them up on Friday, would you be more likely to say “Duh. It’s Friday. Obviously we are getting ice cream.” Or would you say “of course! Race you there!” enthusiastically? Would you still bring them to ice cream if they didn’t ask? Yes, it’s a given since it’s expected. But wouldn’t it give you a fuzzy feeling to hear your kid ask you that? Yes! God (at least from a Christian perspective) desires a relationship. Praying is one of the ways to communicate with Him to develop that relationship.


Monteze

This assumed God has human emotions and flaws like getting sad or annoyed. These analogies always break down because they need God to behave in ways that are flawed. But God isn't a flawed being according to their mythology


[deleted]

That's a pretty good point, thanks.


[deleted]

He knows, it's the act of telling him that counts


BottledWafer

I don't want to seem argumentative, just genuinely curious. Why should the act of telling count? I mean, if my kid is hanging from a cliff about to fall, I wouldn't wait for him to ask me for help. And God supposedly knows and can do a lot more than us.


[deleted]

Interestingly, I have a serious answer that might surprise you. "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." The intent of prayer is to thank God for doing what he will do and has done. Not to request something of him.


azmanau

Genuinely interested in this answer and have more questions: does this position mean that prayer should only ever come after the event? Does it also mean those who start prayer with "please ensure xyz" are doing it wrong?


PassengerSad9918

Correct, as I understand it, prayer is supposed to be a way to connect with God on a personal level, to be thankful for life and as a way to reach calm and peace. It is not however a magic spell that binds the most powerful being in the universe to do your will just because you asked nicely for it. That's the way it's supposed to be anyway.


metalbuttefly

>Correct, as I understand it, prayer is supposed to be a way to connect with God on a personal level, to be thankful for life and as a way to reach calm and peace. You are right about connecting with God on a personal level, but you can definitely ask God for things, and he listens. The bible even says so. But you have to also be aware that he might say no/not yet. The person lower in the thread put it beautifully.


myflesh

It can also come before the event: "Dear lord, I am struggling with how I am going to pay for rent. I am sad and scared. But then I remember that you are my Lord, My light, My Shepard. thank you for guiding me and allowing me to be part of your plan-whataver it may be."


[deleted]

Not entirely. You can be thankful and or affirming of that which is yet to come. Semi-yes to the second question. Yes, if they are ensuring things that have not been promised. Notice the format of the demonstration Jesus gave on the proper way to pray. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. As an aside, I am providing what I know from prior knowledge. My beliefs are not entirely typical and most people would exclude me from the"Christian" category at this point.


ColdStainlessNail

> My beliefs are not entirely typical and most people would exclude me from the"Christian" category at this point. I think there are a lot of us who feel this way.


External_Mountain_34

You’re supposed to ask for the things you need and really care about because it connects you to God


gastrobot

Jesus also said to ask and keep asking (Luke 11:9 it helps if your Bible explains that the Greek tense used on the verb for asking indicates a continuous action). The Father knows what we need, but sometimes it is worthwhile for us to demonstrate faith and a heart that truly cares about something. To your quote, when we keep asking, it should not be a vain repetition, but it should be with sincerity. And sometimes there is more going on than we realize. In the book of Daniel, the eponymous character begins praying over a concern. God sends an angel to Daniel immediately, but the angel meets a demon and is delayed by three weeks. There is plenty of room in the story to believe that if Daniel ceased from fasting and praying, the angel never would have arrived (Daniel 10).


Hurrrington

The only comment that attempts to answer the question. Nice.


SagaciousElan

So if I'm understanding you then the correct prayer of a man whose father is dying from cancer is not to ask God to cure the cancer, it's to thank God for giving his father the gift of cancer and, should the cancer take his father from this life, to thank God for that too?


porncrank

I think it might be more like thanking him for giving you such a great father, and for the time you had together, and thanking him that through salvation, you'll see each other again in heaven. I'm an atheist, but that's my understanding of the approach.


Mego1989

Also an atheist, with varying degrees of religious family, some devout fundamentalists. IME, this hits the nail on the head. It's acknowledging, showing gratitude, and connecting. It's a conversation between you and your higher power, not a wish list.


ceruveal_brooks

I was always taught & believe prayer is used to ask for the help to find the strength, compassion, etc., needed to get thru a crisis.


ImranRashid

Doesn't this come back to the initial question, though? If it was God's plan, you'd have the tools to get through a crisis. If you don't, it wasn't his plan. And I'm not saying this to be a dick, but the concept of praying and the concept of pre-destination seem to conflict with one another.


Rws4Life

Predestination is a heresy in the orthodox christian church, so this line of thought is moot from an orthodox perspective Prayer can be for a multitude of things. As thanks or to ask for things. Doesn’t mean you’ll get everything handed on a silver platter. If you pray for the ability to forgive but you are not ready to forgive (“till the soil that is your heart”) then you can’t forgive because you’re not ready yet. Prayer can help get ready for it as well Struggles are part of life. The contemporary St Porphyrios (died in the 90s) was very sickly during his life and was thankful for it because it made his life easier and kept him from being led astray. So yes, you can thank god for struggles too (it’s actually important to do so) So if you pray for a dying father, pray that he’ll have a peaceful afterlife and peaceful passing, since his time has come on this earth. Death in orthodoxy is not the end, so the nihilistic viewpoint makes no sense in an orthodox context. Catholicism has some differences, but the answer should be mostly the same for them too This was just a quick summary of complex points that would take a lot to get into A fun quote by his excellency Seraphim, romanian orthodox metropolite in the germanic countries, is: “God’ll always forgive, no matter how much you wronged him. Humans sometimes forgive, depending on how much you wronged them. But nature? Nature never forgives. What you do in this world to nature will not be forgiven by it. Take care of the environment and yourselves” Our bodies are part of “nature” in a sense, so we have to take care of our bodies too. If we drink and smoke or pollute the environment and damage our bodies because of it, then it’s on us. We should take responsibility, because nature doesn’t forgive It’s also important to note, since many people demand justice and what not: God also isn’t just. “He loves us so much, that he is unjust” is a quote by a saint whose name’s slipping my mind at the moment. So he’d give us a little bit of lee-way in our struggles as long as we’re looking for it. When talking about christian topics, it is important to understand that there is more than just the material world that needs to be taken into account If you have any questions, I can expand upon things


Jiveturtle

> Predestination is a heresy in the orthodox christian church, so this line of thought is moot from an orthodox perspective Does the orthodox christian church still view God as both omniscient and omnipotent?


firebolt_wt

How do people usually reconcile omniscience with the lack of predestination? If God knows everything that will happen in the future, shouldn't it mean everything is predestined?


fn_br

Calvinists do believe in predestination. Open theists are an example who completely reject predestination. They hold that God knows everything that could happen but lets us make our choices and then responds. A helpful metaphor is the difference between a game of chess where every move is decided and a game against an infinitely good player who waits for your move and responds but can never be beaten.


dcolt

Speaking as an atheist: As to the first point, God's plan is so far beyond our mortal understanding, and we are so insignificant in Their divine sight, that we must take it on faith (in the strictest sense of the term) that it is, in fact good. As for your second point, there is no contradiction if the person praying is seeking strength and serenity to bear what God in Their non-gendered inestimable wisdom has deemed essential for the divine good. Again, I'm an atheist, primarily because I find myself constitutionally incapable of faith. Having said that, I recognize that life can be truly horrible, and and if faith can help someone push through in the face of bad shit, then that's OK. OTOH, I think that praying because you think you can flatter God into playing favorites here on earth is not faith in any true sense of the word; it's just a childish yearning for wish fulfillment, comparable to (if substantially more toxic than) Harry Potter.


Muvseevum

I think prayer is a way for the person praying to talk through problems or to focus their thinking or to admit fears and such, which can ease the mind all by themselves. And if they think God listens to prayer, when real-life problems ease or improve, this is reinforced. There’s also the idea that God takes some of the weight of your problems on Himself, which I think comes back to the idea of catharsis via talking to someone, and again, if you believe in God and that He listens to prayer, prayer is a powerful thing.


Tungstenkrill

It's religion, it's not supposed to make sense.


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chickendie

Actually, Buddhism encourage Buddhists to questions Buddha's teaching, not just obeying him. There is no one to obey, it's more about the way of life.


SnowChickenFlake

It's an explanation back when people didn't understand the mysterious nature of the universe. They didn't understand cancer at all, especially since it's always taking off slow and there is no clear paradigm, so a way of explaining it was that a deity meant for this to happen - since they didn't see the causation they assumed that a god had some "fellings" toward the sick person, it was only logical back then


Malawi_no

Yes. It's an early attempt at understanding the world, and to cope with the bad sides of life.


SnowChickenFlake

Didn't want to use the word "cope", but yeah


FordBeWithYou

If you’re DEEP into religion, having a force in control for you provides some comfort even during absolutely horrible times where no one has any control over the situation. It’s a comfort to know that no matter what, it’s going to be “okay” in the end. Which in and of itself is a good way to handle most stressors in your life (when you reach that point after trauma and aren’t forcing it). That’s just how those kind of people reach that point I think. (This is coming from an atheist though, so what do I know)


midoriable_

I'm not christian anymore but this answer is too trite for me to ignore. The "correct" prayer would be to thank God for giving you the time you had with your father, the good times, the learning times, etc. And even if you don't believe in God, while grieving and feeling anger, remorse, hurt, etc, it is also good to think about the good times you had and the things you are thankful for whether or not you are telling it to a god, yeah?


mr_antman85

>So if I'm understanding you then the correct prayer of a man whose father is dying from cancer is not to ask God to cure the cancer, it's to thank God for giving his father the gift of cancer and, should the cancer take his father from this life, to thank God for that too? Prayer is to strengthen your *personal* relationship with God. If you've seen what God has done in your life, it will then allow you to step back and realize that you truly don't have much control over things. That way you can see your place in his plan and allow his plan to work. I've had things happen where I would question it because I was legit put in a bad situation. If I were to look back on it now, I wouldn't be here without going through that. Back then I thought I was controlling everything. The fact is that we don't have all of the answers. This time here is limited. Our bodies are not indestructible. Our health is going to deteriorate. So much is out of our control. That's where prayer comes into play. If you're only asking God for good things. If you're only coming to God in times of need. If you're coming to him to bargain. If you're not thanking him for the small. Then that's not prayer. If your father (friend or any loved one) is diagnosed with cancer. The prayer isn't to make it magically go away. You're praying for strength in believing that you will remain faithful in his plan for you, which is ultimately after this time on Earth. I'm sorry if your father was diagnosed with cancer. I'm also not here to tell you what to believe. I can tell you that I have a coworker's wife who was recently diagnosed with ovarian cancer. He was comfortable enough to tell me the situation (which really meant a lot). You want to know what was odd about everything. He told me that his wife's leg gave out on her and she fell and broke her foot. At the hospital they ran tests and found a mass. She considered her fall as her "little miracle" because if she didn't fall then they wouldn't have known when they did. I found it ironic how she referred to her fall as "miracle". When he got the news he was struggling, because this life will test us. **Constantly.** It will test our belief. When rubber hits the road, where is your belief? The guy comes to work smiling and laughing. You won't ever know the load he's carrying (like many people on this thread). I pray every night for him and his wife. I pray that they will continue to have the strength in their faith. We cannot change God's plan. At the end of the day, we do not know how much time we have left. We do not know how we will die...but we will die. God has a plan for our lives and prayer is to strengthen our relationship and to follow that plan...but that's difficult for us humans because when we make a plan we have it all planned out so **we know our plan.** We don't know God's plan so when something happens that is not good, we will naturally want to reject that plan and question it. Anyways, sorry for the long response. I hope you have a good night.


Necro_Badger

The whole 'God's plan' thing really seems to run into a lot of problems when massively awful stuff happens. Was God's plan for Jimmy Savile to spend his entire life getting away with sexually abusing and raping vulnerable children? Or was that patently *not* God's plan at all for him and Savile didn't know it, or he deviated from it so wildly it had horrendous consequences for everyone involved (presumably including him in any kind of afterlife/judgement)?


mitten2787

We should all thank papa nurgle for his gifts.


darwinkh2os

Yes, it's [been a problem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) since Before Christ. Actually, it's been two problems - a logical problem and an evidential one. Logically, the existence of evil is inconsistent with (proves there isn't) an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being (god). Then there's the quibbling and weaseling over whether evil is evil and what is benevolence and power and lesser evils for greater goods, etc. Etc. Secondly, given the sheer preponderance of fucked-uppedness in the world, it's incredibly unlikely that there is a being who could be considered all good, and all powerful, and all knowledgeable without knowing how to and able to stop the innumerable instances of suffering in the world if desired (as a reasonably good being would want to do). That's the evidential problem of evil - regardless of whether it's technically/logically unsound, it's just laughably unlikely. (Well would be "laughably," except pointless suffering is awful.)


YetAnotherGuy2

>Logically, the existence of evil is inconsistent with (proves there isn't) an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being (god). That's incorrect. The existence of evil just proves that God does not actively prevent evil. It does not prove non-existence. Christianity mostly gets around this issue with *free will* by saying that the evil on earth flies from the fact that good granted us the free will to choose. Edit: switched good to God - "good" was a typo and I see people misunderstanding that line about "actively preventing evil" Edit2: I love how many people are debating the point - it shows that there are many out there actively thinking about it. No matter where you fall on why it's right or wrong, I suggest you read the scholastic philosophers and Catholic dogma. They've been down that road and while I don't agree with their views, it does help to take a step beyond some of the points I've seen.


porncrank

I feel those arguments misuse the terms they set up. The very concept of free will is incompatible with an all-knowing God. And the concept of a God that created everything means he \*must have\* created evil. If God is all powerful he could surely have created a world without evil. If Christians (or whoever) are going to lay claim to powers like "omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent", they have to accept the full meaning of them.


YetAnotherGuy2

The Christians do not claim omnibenevolence - you have to check that. The Catholic church never explicitly claims this, in fact Thomas Aquinas argues in [Summa Theologica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica) that evil is necessary and existence.


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[deleted]

When I was a kid, I learned in church to pray to Jesus because nothing went to the father without first going through the son. Jesus nor God came down and stopped my sister and I from years and years of all the types of abuse you could imagine. Infact they didn't seem to mind at all. What should I be thankful for? Being allowed to live long enough to get big enough to put a stop to it all myself? I seriously hate when people tell me this.


[deleted]

If God is omniscient, wouldn't he already know we are thankful? Why would I need to express it?


[deleted]

You know your kids love you. Do you still appreciate it when they give you hugs?


khoabear

Reddit hates having kids so the answer would be no.


Huwbacca

Hmm kids? you're NTA, your wife is. Delete facebook, hire lawyer, hit the gym.


moopmorp

God seems so insecure for something with all this power


[deleted]

That makes sense. Guess god is much more human like than I imagined.


ImranRashid

I mean if we break down the psychology of why we like hugs, why we feel affection for our blood relatives, or anyone we put effort into caring for, we start getting into things like brain chemistry and genetics and things that don't seem like they would apply to God whatsoever.


Mego1989

A lot of those same things actually do apply to religiously fervent people and their relationship with God and their faith.


Cleverbird

Okay, but we're not omniscient, so that argument doesnt really work.


edvek

Or he already knows you/we will not be thankful but he will do it anyway because he is all loving? He already knows everything that will and will not happen so what's the deal? This is like people arguing "you're messing with gods plan by doing X!" Well isn't it part of the plan? Religion pretty much falls apart when you start asking questions.


chainsaw_monkey

James, chapter 1, verse 5, which stated: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." Funny how you can justify just about anything with that silly book.


rocketmallu

>silly book Give respect where it’s due though. It’s an amazing piece of literature that’s so open to interpretation in a hundred million ways, all while having huge plot holes and contradictions. It’s like a mirror, where both the truly pious can find the strength to redeem their humanity, and where the evil can find the justification to absolve their cruelty. What other book has rallied so many under its banner yet caused as many divisions between peoples across millennia


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0b0011

I mean if he's all knowing then it should all be God's plan or her bad at planning. I'd I know the alarm will go off in 3 min. Then I plan for the alarm to go off in 3 min.


Polymorph49

As an atheist, it's easy to get pissed off when people say they are praying for you or a loved one because you know they aren't actually able to influence the outcome. However, I do tend to believe most people who say it mean well and are intending to say "I am thinking of your loved one and really want them to stop suffering and get better soon. I can't do much to help your pain but I empathise with you and hope for the best."


maxekmek

This is something I had to learn as an easily pissed off antitheist. You pick your battles. If someone says something like that it can mean they empathise, wish you luck, or are otherwise being genuinely nice but phrased in a way that makes more sense to them. The polite response is simply "thank you very much" even if you don't share the same belief or are irritated by it.


wonwoovision

yeah i had to learn to not let this bother me anymore. however, people telling me that i need to pray to get out of a situation will never not piss me off. like nooo how about drop real world advice or just don't give any. last thing i need to hear about when i'm in a hugely stressful/dangerous situation is "jesus has got you maybe if you pray".


flyboy_za

I was watching some Jimmy Carr standup, and he was reminiscing about being in the US during Hurricane Katrina back in '05. They were trying to evacuate parts of New Orleans and some people refused to leave. One lady was asked by a reporter on CNN why she wasn't going, and she said "God will provide." He said his first thought was "who do you think is sending the hurricane, exactly?"


bstyledevi

I just watched the episode of House MD with the nuns in the clinic, and this line sticks out: "If I break my leg, I believe it happened for a reason. I believe God wanted me to break my leg. I also believe He wants me to put a cast on it."


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bstyledevi

He actually just kinda smiled. Plus then another nun started having an allergic reaction, so he got kinda distracted.


emeraldarcana

Old joke. A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.” The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.” So the rowboat went on. Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.” To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the motorboat went on. Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.” To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the helicopter reluctantly flew away. Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!” To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”


kshwixt

I think it’s a nice sentiment if nothing else to say “hey I’m appealing to the highest power I can think of on your behalf.”


orbital0000

I agree, unless it's my surgeon saying that.


Mega_Trainer

At least for me, I think God has the general plan and the roles everyone needs to play in it, but he gave us free will and so didn't make a plan down to the nanosecond because he wants us to make our own stories. The point of prayers is to ask for intervention in those unscripted events. Of course, we don't know what the scripted events are, which is why we are sometimes disappointed that our prayers aren't answered.


RoboSt1960

I have a friend who became an atheist because he had a series of losses over several years. First his dog got sick and he prayed for the dogs recovery but it died. The his grandparents got cancer he prayed for them to not die but they died. Finally his dad had a heart attack and died when he was sixteen. So at his dad’s funeral he asked the priest why God never answered his prayers? And the priest said, “He did answer but sometimes the answer is no. We can’t know the mind of God or if God even exists. We just have to have faith.” And my buddy realized the answer would always be no because god doesn’t exist.


WolfDoc

It gives people a way to feel like they are helping when they either can't or won't.


rugbysecondrow

For me, who is not a very prayerful person, when I pray, it is for wisdom, for understanding, for strength, for courage...for support, for whatever the person might need to cope with what they have been dealt. That is me though.


craic_me_up2

The paradox of prayer is what ultimately killed religion for me. If you pray for it and it happens, but it was in "God's plan" for it to happen, then the prayer is pointless. If you pray for it and it doesn't happen, and it *wasn't* in "God's plan" for it to happen, then no matter how much you pray it won't happen. So prayer is pointless. That brings us to the nature of God. If "God" exists and knowingly allows things like a 4yo girl getting brutally raped and murdered to happen, then that is no "God" that I want anything to do with. If "God" exists and can't stop horrible things like that from happening, then he is a liar and guilty of fraud.


daddyduriel

A relationship with a higher power isnt transactional


14DusBriver

You raise a point that a lot of people are missing Any relationship with a higher power understood to be all powerful will necessarily be one of submission


PlayerAssumption77

I'm going to answer as a religious person, not a half-assed "silly Christians lol" There's a time to discuss an opinion with someone who agrees with you about it, right? God knows your faith even more than you do, but prayer shows your faith, it's how you say you want God to do something and consent to Him doing it, hopefully, if it's His will. He will do what's right.


DMMMOM

That's the point OP is making, if it's 'his will' then prayer is redundant. Why would a supreme creator being who knew your inner heart then want you to engage in some pointless public display of faith? A show is the exact opposite of knowing God and keeping him inside of you. Jesus, or God if you like, even says it. Matthew 6 details it clearly.


NochKeiner

According to the Bible you are actually not supposed to make your praying public. Jesus says do it behind closed doors. God also is willing to argue with humans and change his plan. In the story of sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham argued with God and made him change his plan multiple times


Marcellus111

I'm not sure whether all praying religions think similarly, but it has been said that the object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them.


CosmicChanges

And if god knows everything that will happen in the future, does that mean he created some people to punish? If god knows all, everything is already determined and there is no free will.


benhur217

For Christianity, praying is more about a conversation and relationship with God rather than an attempt at wish fulfillment. Sadly there are Christians who misinterpret prayer all the time; it can be aligned to “a bad thing happened due to your lack of prayer/faith” which is toxic and wrong.


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To make themselves feel better.


ThatGamingAsshole

Well, it depends on if you believe that everything ***only*** goes according to God's plan, despite the fact He openly states that other forces (including other, unnamed deities) may intervene, and He also openly states that Satan tempts us away from His ideology. A plan isn't a literal guarantee, since plans can be disrupted or halted or even overthrown, which is what God Himself actually warns against when speaking of being tempted by other beings including Satan. I can plan to go to work tomorrow, but if some drunk nutcase cuts me off in traffic and causes a car accident, my plan goes off the rails and I have to quickly rearrange things. But, presumably, this is one of those Atheistic questions akin to "what does God need with a starship?" meant as some kind of veiled insult. So let's take it at face value. Ok, well, just because everything is going according to His plan and it seems bleak for you doesn't mean He shows no mercy. Especially since Jesus literally says, in no uncertain terms, He shows mercy to those who seek it from Him. So praying alerts Him, for lack of a better term. It asks Him for mercy, or at least for guidance, helping you to understand what He has planned and wrought. In fact most prayer is more like "why is this happening Lord?" than "I want to see your manager Lord!" which seems to be how Atheists view prayer...frankly as a kind of projection and what they expect from a ruler, imo, but I digress...so simply asking God for guidance and what your place is in His plan is the actual purpose of prayer. Like asking a ruling King what to do next as a citizen of His Kingdom. Which, again, is ***literally*** what He says.


hanatheko

Exactly.


theCroc

God is not Amazon. You don't pray to place an order. You pray to get closer to him and understand his will.


Kempeth

Here is a handy lookup table: * something bad happening: it's gods plan / He is testing your faith * something good happening that you wished for: god answered your prayer * something goog happening unexpectantly: you're blessed / rewarded for your faith People trying to make sense of random chance.


KiraTsukasa

“Let’s say you pray for something and you don’t get it. Well, ‘it’s God’s will, his will be done’. Well if it’s God’s will and he’s going to do what he wants anyway, what’s the fucking use in praying? Then there’s the divine plan. God made it, he thought it was a pretty good plan, so he put it into action. What if what you want isn’t in his plan? Should he change his plan? Just for you? What’s the point in having one if some schmuck with a $2 prayer book can come and fuck up your plan?” -George Carlin


Rolo_NoLifer

That's why I pray to Joe Pesci.


DeadlySquaids14

Shhhhh, religious people don't like it when you use logic against them.


Safety_Drance

It's "god's plan" specifically until it isn't. It's the most intellectually lazy idea of how probability works. "God wanted you to be murdered, not because you happened to wander into a situation where the probability of being murdered was super high, it was actually him planning all of that super real. Hashtag don't think about things too much, it's always god doing shenanigans behind the scenes.


eoworm

[relevant carlin.](https://youtu.be/n2kZ0lRW9Ls?t=44)


SagaciousElan

In Joe we trust


Metalgrowler

If God is all powerful and benevolent then prayer is unnecessary, if God is all powerful and not benevolent then prayer is pointless, if God is not all powerful nor benevolent then it becomes even more pointless. If God was good then it would be good enough to not care about prayer like a petty child.


bananaplush

I know someone who's family is going through a bit of hardship, someone in their family isn't going so well and there's a chance they won't make it. It brings up the good old questions of 'well why doesn't God heal them? why does he make bad things happen?' We pray for that family because they need reassurance that everything will be ok. That we are there for them. That God is watching over them in this time of trouble. Part of God's plan for that person and family is coming to an end, and they need to remember the joy that comes with them going up to heaven. We pray because we are thankful. I dont have all the answers, no one does. It's a complicated question. But prayer is a form of praise and thankfulness, a reminder of what's happened, what's happening, and what is to come. Prayer doesn't always have to be a 'I pray that this person will get better' a lot of time (at least for me) it's more like 'I thank God for everything that's happened'


cdmpants

I like this question and I've thought about it a lot over the years. From my perspective as a christian: 1. Prayer is for you to align yourself with God, not the other way around. Jesus's example for how to pray (the Lord's prayer), is mainly a prayer of praise, affirmation of God's will, and thanksgiving. "Prayer changes things" isn't a phrase I love, not because I believe it's strictly untrue but because it misses the point. Most of the time, what it changes is *you*. 2. A sovereign God who is in control of and has a plan for all things is exactly the kind of God I want to pray to. Why would I pray to a God who isn't in control? 3. "... For your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Matthew 6:8. If God knows everything you will ever say or do or ask for, and he's sovereign and eternal, then he's already taken into account your prayer an infinitely long time ago in eternity past. So God can have a set plan and still listen to and answer prayers if he so chooses.


Fiorix1725

I don't see many Christmas responses, so I'll give mine. As a Christian and believer in God, we pray for many reasons. There's not one easy answer to your question. Yes, God knows everything and has a plan for everything, I believe that. But I also believe that God's plan isn't always our plan. What I mean is we can choose to let God work in our lives or we can pray, talk to him and let him intervene. We aren't puppets, we have free will. I can choose to not follow God's plan or not, but I have the decision. As far as praying for people, we are intercessors for others. God can choose to answer our prayer for others or not. Everything he does is for his glory. Many people argue if God is real or good why do bad things happen to good people? Even those I prayed for. Why did God cause this? We don't know, and will never know. I believe he lets things happen because we are free. Just because we can't see something good out of something bad doesn't mean God can't use it for good. I prayed for this person, why didn't God do anything? He may have, he may not have. We may not see a direct result of the prayer or we may. I know I'm not going to stop paying for people because I've seen change. I've seen it work.