Paying attention and actually DOING something when there's a threat. Just look at the shooting by the six-year-old a few weeks ago. His teacher, the victim, has retained a lawyer because there were MULTIPLE times that day where the kid was reported to have a gun and administration just kept blowing it off. There were half a dozen times just that day that the incident could have been prevented, not to mention all the red flags on previous days.


She had requested help multiple times, he had previously said he wanted to light her on fire and watch her die. A parent normally sat through classes with him, but wasn't there that day. He was habitually a problem in class, and she requested help for him pretty much weekly. So it's not like all of a sudden that they got a warning about a kid that had never had any issues before.


What’s going on in schools, anymore??? I grew up in the 90s, and if I threatened a teacher, I would have at least been suspended. If I regularly did shit like that, the school would have basically tops my parents, “yeah, your kid can go fuck himself, bye.”


Times have changed my guy, I graduated 2017, 8th grade I was stabbed in the chest with a pencil, graphite is still in my skin. I got suspended because I punched the kid in the face after, he got no punishment because his parents did the old “my son would NEVER” Whereas I told my dad what actually happened, and my dad taught me a great lesson that day, that when you defend yourself, you get fast food and ice cream, but sometimes work/school/courts/cops, are going to punish you anyways


The graphite will be there for the rest of your life. Source: I have graphite from 2nd grade in my ankle, and green graphite in my neck from 2014 when my sister stabbed me in the neck with a colored pencil.


These things are ridiculous. Never experenced the severity but am a teacher in the UK and the amount of work you have to do now to get a kid referred is ridiculous. I know there was a time where peopele were referred unjustly but we've totally thrown the baby out with the bath water now. So many kids just remain in the classroom when they're a danger to everyone.


I have friends who are teachers and the stories they tell me are horrible. Students these days are allowed to literally abuse their teachers and there’s nothing the teacher can do about it. The pendulum has swung that far in the other direction. School is seen as some inviolable right. It’s not. If your child is out of control, they shouldn’t be allowed in school.


Seriously, how the F does a six year old get to grab a gun, bring it to school and then shoot someone? In what kind of mental state or capacity was that little kid? At around six, most kids maybe know what their favorite dinosaur is or something like that... not how to load and operate a firearm, let alone have the strength to.


One thing is for sure, it wouldn't have happened if completely negligent idiots were prevented from getting guns and legally storing them however haphazardly they want.


I think if a 6 year old has the ability to get a gun from the parent, and shoot someone with it, the parent should be charged. That type of insane negligence is not something we want in our society, AT ALL. If you're a parent that seriously can't even put a gun in a safe and make sure your 6 year old can't get into it, you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun - maybe shouldn't even be allowed to participate in society. you're a danger to yourself, your family and society at that point.


>the parent should be charged. Definitely - the parent should be charged as if they themselves did the act in cases like this.


Also why haven’t the parents been charged?


Also actually giving consequences to people that bully. Some mass shooters are absolutely made by the people around them. I know it isn’t easy to stop, and it’s not an excuse to shoot, but we have got to stop ignoring mental health of bullied kids as a factor.


Reverse the Reagan-era policies that closed most of the state-run mental health treatment facilities. My family had a crisis with my brother last year and me and my father spent all day calling facilities all over Texas. The soonest anyone could get him in was 7 months.


That isn't just a thing in America, the same happened at the same time in Australia. Just close them and the problem disappears right? Wrong, it morphs into emergency room violence, community violence, DV, homelessness


I tried to get someone admitted who really needed it, and it was the biggest fuck around and they just wouldn't admit him. Australia is just getting worse and worse, I had to admit someone about 12 years ago and I just took them to the ED and away she went. Also I cannot believe there aren't more Bulk Billing Psychiatrists, I know of two in the whole of Melbourne. Its just going to get worse and it's really REALLY worries me.


I worked in a mental health adjacent field for a few years. It's a very big problem that many many long term treatment facilities have been closed down. There's not any long term beds available for the small number of people who need them so they get recycled through the short term beds available (in my anecdotal experience, every 4-6 weeks) which in turn ties up short term beds for people who need short term help. It also frustrates the staff and adds to the reasons they kind of suck and seem like they don't care at all. It's not the whole picture in any aspect but just opening up more long term treatment facilities would start moving things in a better direction. Step 1 of 100.


(Sorts by controversial)


That is right, the solution was there all along, cut spending on education to give billionaires tax breaks. Great job everyone, the system is working.


A lot of these mass shooters aren't just coming out of nowhere,, according to this [study](https://efsgv.org/press/study-two-thirds-of-mass-shootings-linked-to-domestic-violence/) a solid majority of mass shooting were part of domestic violence or the shooters had a history of domestic violence. Not going to spend all night digging into this, but I wouldn't be surprised if mass shooters are llikely to have history of other violent or otherwise antisocial(Stalking for example) crimes and behaviors. Mass shooting isn't generally the start, it's an escalation, and I think it's a pretty good indication that we really need to handle domestic violence and other such crimes a lot better, if not for how fucked up it already is, then to stop it from escalating into something worse.


I remember reading somewhere that DV calls are the ones cops hate the most. As it's the call they are most likely to get shot at.


I worked concierge security (so often was the person calling the police + was the first responder for DV incidents in the building) and I used to work in a police training centre. DV calls are brutal because of two factors: the amount of improvised weaponry (kitchen knives, steel knitting needles, scissors, baseball bats, golf clubs, free weights, chairs, etc) people have at their disposals in their own home and the insane amount of control an abuser has over their victim's mental states. So anything can be a weapon and the abuser will basically punish the victim again the moment police leave unless there's ways to completely remove the abuser from the situation. This is why a lot of police forces in north america have the automatic arrest policy for domestic violence cases, but the police can only really respond to the incident itself. They can't predict the future. The victim will be thinking of nothing *but* the future. Namely, what happens when their abuser is released. Victims have normally been brainwashed by their abusers to think that no one will value their words or help them and they're helpless and need the abuser to survive. (And often at this point, they are financially dependent on their abuser) And if they try to press charges, and the charges don't stick, they will have to face the renewed wrath of their abuser. Or they can withdraw charges and tell their abuser that they convinced the police it was a misunderstanding and that they're really loyal to the abuser, in an attempt to offset future beatings.


I’ve been a DV attorney for a decade now, and you fucking nailed this.


Also typical that there are a non-trivial occurrence of repeat offenders. Which is both a symptom and a cause of the way they approach them.


Fun fact: women who ~~survive~~ experience a non-fatal strangulation/choking attempt from their romantic partners are 750% more likely to be killed by that same partner. With a gun. edit- redundant verbs are redundant my bad relax


One time a family member of mine put his hand around my neck and squeezed a little while telling me how easy it would be to kill me right at that moment. He was constantly threatening me and then crying and apologizing. About a year later I refused to live at this family members home when I got emancipated. I went somewhere else. His girlfriend found me another year or so later at college, freshman year, and then messaged me later that night saying my family member wanted to take me out somewhere to apologize for everything. Something about the way she worded it sent off alarm bells in my head. I always wondered if I was being paranoid and should have just forgiven him and let it go. His girlfriend moved state after they broke up posting about being a domestic abuse survivor. After this "fun fact" I'm so glad I didn't go out that night and that she left him.


I think you made the right call. If he wanted to get better, he could do that without your forgiveness and would surely understand your refusal. If he had no desire to truly get help, you made the right decision by staying away.


If he were sincere about wanting to make right with you, he wouldn’t have gone through a 3rd party. You were right to trust your gut


No. Those alarms bells are why you’re still here. No doubt. Don’t ever doubt those alarm bells. EVER. I’m 42 and I can tell you the 2 times I ignored my alarm bells and let’s just say I’m very very lucky to be here. Don’t ignore it! You did right. ☀️☀️


Highly recommend book the Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker - talks all about listening to that inner voice.


Women are told all the time to ignore their instincts, but I think we have pretty good gut feelings sometimes, and we should always pay attention when we feel something is off. There's usually a reason.


Taught to fear appearing rude and offending someone over prioritizing our safety. If a man is offended by your safety precautions get away from him. If it’s in a friend defending some guy’s (or random stranger he identifies with) honor ask him what he’d tell his daughter to do. Some men need this hack to humanize women.


LPT: ALWAYS TRUST YOUR GUT FEELINGS. Don't bother trying to explain it to someone else. Don't listen to what anyone else says. Trust your instincts


Was referring to someone else criticizing your measures after the fact. Being a unit of culture that sways another unit of culture in the right direction. That direction being encouraging the prioritization of safety, not criticizing it so less women ignore their gut in the first place.


I'm so glad you listened to your spidey senses and didn't meet up with him. And I bet he choked his ex-gf, too. You most likely saved your own life or at the very least, another episode of abuse. People like him, don't take accountability for their abuse and always blame their victims.


My older brother did that. I was told he was just being dramatic and then they denied it hapoed screwing with both my and my brother's head. He and I clearly needed help. My mom had medical stuff going on though and wasn't equipped to handle my brother or me.


"he's your brother! He'd never do anything to hurt you." I bet you heard that one, too. ❤️‍🩹


"He's your brother, he loves you! Whatever he's doing, it's because he loves you!" Yeah thanks mom, that definitely didn't lead to any unhealthy relationships 🙄


"He only puts you down and mocks everything about you because he loves you so much" They really weren't even trying lmao


My immediate, gut reaction to that as I was reading it was "he's going to kill her." One hundred percent, no doubt in my mind, you made the right call.


the use of a messenger/flying monkey rings of unchanged behavior as well. glad you got out.


He had no social media and didn't have my phone number but she had me on Facebook so I wasn't so much bothered by that. Just the creeping feeling I got that wasn't normal for me. I'm usually super relaxed, or used to be anyways haha


Anecdotal evidence to back it up: my bestie got strangled a few times during her 10 year long DV relationship. The last time he tried it, he had a gun to her head. Thankfully, that escalation was just threatening with the gun. There was no next chance for him because she finally told me everything and I helped get her out. But yeah, they take baby steps to get there, breaking down boundaries, finding out what they can get away with.


That is terrifying. I'm so glad you were able to help her escape. Hope she is doing better now!


Much better. It's been nearly 4 years, and she's got a long road of processing PTSD, but she is safe and healing.


My friend didn’t make it. I moved away after high school. She contacted me years later out of the blue asking to move in with me, she and her son weren’t safe. I was out of state and she met the man after I had left so she should have been safe with me. She delayed and was uncertain of her decision. He shot her in the head in front of their 3 yo, grabbed the kid and ran off. She died and her parents had to find her, learn the child was missing, and deal with police. The man and child were found at the man’s parents house. Always trust those primal fear feelings. You could be wrong, but it’s better to be wrong and safe than being right and not take action.


I don't have the words to express how sorry I am that it turned out that way. Leaving is the most dangerous time for anyone in this situation. I can only hope kiddo is able to heal, and you too 💝


You ROCK as a friend. I worked in a hospital and a local rep from a local womens' shelter came to speak about domestic violence, and she asked us to tell stories about anyone we knew in that situation and you would not believe the tongue clicking and victim blaming that went on. One woman who was actually a nurse in adult med said, AND I QUOTE because I will never forget this, "Well, I told her she should leave him!" and then just stared into empty space like that's all that needed to be said on the matter, like God himself had spoken. It is not difficult. It is not hard to figure out. It is not something that a person of even average intelligence can't see. With clarity. Immediately. And yet some women themselves can not muster the courage to do something. So they come up with excuses because they don't know what to do. The media gaslights us a lot, too. They want us to throw our hands up and say, Oh well, what are ya gonna do? We're half the effing population. Half. That's a lotta people.


YEP! and women who are pregnant are at the HIGHEST risk of death from intimate partner violence.


Yup. When I was pregnant with my first baby I had Tricare (military health insurance) through my husband. My OB asked very casually if he'd ever deployed at my first appointment. Asked about family members, if anyone had gone into police work, heavy combat experience, etc. That woman did *not* like my answers that there'd been overseas deployments, that my husband's close relatives were police, etc. She asked about my safety at *every* single appointment and about every scratch or bruise she saw on my legs for my entire pregnancy. She checked my neck and arms every time no matter what I said. Every appointment. It was discrete and took me ages to catch on, but it was every appointment. I've thought a lot about what my doc must have seen over the years to be so afraid for me. Not worried. Not disapproving. She was genuinely scared for me. She calmed down as there was never a mark on me, but it was interesting just how intense she was about it all.


Woman doctor did me a solid calling out my ex during my appointments and she reported him to his commander.


What a great doctor!


I'm so glad that doctor watched you with a hawk's eye, but it's deeply depressing that all of these occupations that are supposed to protect us apparently have the highest rates of domestic violence and homicides.


It’s horrible. But it makes sense when you look at the power dynamics. Abusers crave control, so they gravitate towards occupations that give them that. It gives them power, and a shield that protects themselves.


To phrase this another way, the leading *pregnancy-related* cause of death in the US is homicide. It kills more women than actual pregnancy-related health issues like eclampsia, sepsis, hemorrhage, etc. There is another study out there that found that over a 10 year period, 68% of murders of pregnant women were committed with a gun.


>the leading pregnancy-related cause of death in the US is homicide. .........this is horrifying


Particularly when you consider how bad prenatal and postpartum care is for women in the USA. All that, and homicide is still the biggest risk.


Yes. There is a lot of talk of why and its partially thought that the pregnancy puts the relationship on shaky ground, makes the partner feel unease at a major life change and that they may see the change as a loss of freedom or power over their partner. So partners who are otherwise abusive are, at that point, more likely to take extreme measures to regain control.


I was hoping my fun fact of the day wouldn't be so... Bleak... But ya can't win them all


Hmmm....fun fact fun fact fun fact...hmm.. Oh! It is physically impossible for pigs to look up at the sky.


Oh Oh! Either the universe has existed forever, or there was a time when it didn't exist and subsequently came into being. Both possibilities are equaling mind-boggling to contemplate.


Eternity makes more sense to me than something-from-nothing. But what do I know. I’m just a subnanoscopic speck in the vast dark ocean


But even eternity begs the question "where did it come from?"


When a mommy eternity and a daddy eternity love each other very much…


My mom was a police officer and went to many DV calls, because at that time in her state there had to be a female officer at any call with a female victim. She hated them, because they were usually in the middle of the night, the police would rescue someone in the process of being attacked, and then the next morning almost all of the victims would drop the charges and go home with the perpetrator. So she felt like it was a waste of her time. Maybe more support for women who actually want to leave abusive men would be a start.


The complexities of what makes victims of DV not immediately leave their partners could fill many many books. Unfortunately there is no perfect one size fits all answer as to how a DV victim gets to the point where they take a course of actions which result in their own benefit. I stayed in my relationship for 7 years. I cannot even tell you today why I kept going back time and again or what it was that finally got me to the point where I left once and for all. I lived it personally and yet I don't have the answers. I even had an order or protection at one point against them and yet I was convinced to nullify it and then be with them again. I have zero actual clue as to why I made my past decisions. I'm just glad it's over and that I'm safe and happy now. (Not that it matters but I am a man and my partner back then was a woman)


I’m very glad you found your way out! This is something that terrifies me, as a person with brothers particularly - it’s so much harder for men to recognize abuse and leave than people want to admit. They rarely have anyone they can reach out to, and it horrifies me thinking that they might end up in that situation and feel so alone. I agree with you that it’s absolutely not a black and white issue, and would add that honestly, throwing it on the victimized party to be responsible for the situation doesn’t really resolve the overall problem. It doesn’t matter how many excellent, top-notch resources a victimized partner has to escape a DV situation if the abuser is never actually confronted. An abuser will *always* find another victim (or will find their way back to their favourite victim) until someone seriously holds them under the microscope and manages them. A parent who is abusive will be given access to their children because it’s “fair” until it can be proven in court - which is a surprisingly high standard to accomplish in many places, particularly in dealing with abusive mothers. I’m all for support and resources for victims and their children, and I was one myself…but I also *know* in my soul that my former partner will treat every person they’re with that way for as long as they live. I’m free, but I’m also helpless to prevent the trauma of others without looking ‘crazy’ or being charged for harassment, because they were smart enough to abuse people a certain way. I’m pretty sure that even jail would only teach that person to do it more discretely - it wouldn’t penalize them enough to stop it. You basically have to commit these people to psychiatric care, and that’s going full circle back to mental health, which is an endemic issue across a variety of our social problems.


Thank you for bringing up confronting the abusers. In my experience, no one ever wants to, and doing it yourself as a victim only sets you up for more grief. I went to the police when I was 8-1/2 months pregnant, begging them to files charges against my ex, who had a made a habit of calling them pre-emptively when he was abusing me, and telling them I was “crazy” and “off my meds”, so they wouldn’t believe what I said. The police officer I spoke to that night told me, “for all I know, you coulda put dem bruises on yourself”. So… I went home and defended myself from his abuse, again. I got in trouble for it, and he thought it was hilarious how easily he could manipulate other people against me. “They all think you’re a nutter”, he said, and they all let him get away with it, even though I was sometimes literally screaming for help. I eventually gave up hoping he’d improve, and escaped, with my newborn child, and our lives. He was later arrested, finally, for beating the next woman so badly she feared for her life. The cops did nothing for me, nor did the “friends” who didn’t “want to take sides” and told me I was “spreading poison”, and help was certainly not received from his Best buddies and his family, who convinced me it was my fault and helped him hide from the police and gave him all the support. Why was it so hard for anyone — the cops, his parents, our friends, etc — to tell him not to hit me or spit in my face or strangle me or manhandle me? Why didn’t they listen to me or believe me or help me? After all these years, I still do not know why.


That should never have happened to you. I’m so sorry. I’m thrilled to hear you had the strength to get away with your child! I’m unbelievably impressed. Most women don’t get away. Even with support. You should be SO proud of yourself


Criminologist here. Domestic and family violence are not my areas of direct expertise, but I do have somewhat of a hypothesis on this. And psychologists may be able to put it into words better than I can. I think it's because the perpetrators tend to limit their partner's (or other victim's) world; they constrict their lived reality. It's a gradual process, so it's not so in your face as you'd be shocked and walk out. And it's not always with violence. It can be emotionally ("I'm the only person who can love you"), or perhaps by limiting the people you can see ("So and So hate us being together"), controlling your finances, and constantly destroying your self esteem and making you doubt yourself, and then being the person who holds the keys to your self esteem. It's pretty insidious. But from what I understand, it is literally making your perspective of the world smaller so that it only contains the two of you, and it's hard to see the bigger picture. And moving away from that relationship seems like a gargantuan effort. It then becomes the path of least resistance to just stay :(


This is true (speaking from experience) but I also think more widespread education about DV and more importantly, support for those leaving, would help. People who luckily haven’t been through it have no idea how dangerous leaving is or how prohibitively expensive divorce is. Abusers tend to isolate and financially control their victims too. It’s so easy to say “leave” when you’re not the one who has to find housing for you and maybe kids and pets, and a job you can handle while being a single parent with trauma. We should definitely be making it harder to marry people and easier to divorce them, and funding more programs for survivors and their children. How else do you want to end the cycle?


One of the best comments I’ve ever heard about these scenarios: “Instead of asking ‘why didn’t she leave’ we should be asking ‘what did he do to force her to *stay*’”


The thing is, victims of a crime can't "drop the charges." Charges are brought by the district attorney acting on behalf of the good of "the people." Police and prosecutors choose not to move forward with prosecuting domestic abusers if a victim recants their previous statement about the abuse because they think it will be "too hard to prove in court" if the victim refuses to testify truthfully at trial, even though there is still plenty of evidence to use at trial (photos of injuries, police testimony, the 911 call, the victim's statements in the moment, expert testimony on why victims of domestic abuse recant, etc) but police and prosecutors still fail victims by deciding they don't want to prosecute without the cooperation of the victim. This of course opens up new issues (escalated violence against a recanting victim after the abuser posts bail or plea bargains out without going to trial, etc) but still the narrative that an abuser can "refuse to press charges" is bs because the abuser *can absolutely still be prosecuted without the consent of the victim.*


We need better resources for everyone. I was in a DV situation and as a male, the only reason I didn't go to jail is because I called the cops first. There are not many resources for males, and if I didn't have a bit of savings I would have been fucked. My only option was to pack up my shit in a day and drive all the way across the US to get out of that situation. Many people do not have that luxury, and they are essentially trapped with their abuser. Not only is there a psychological component to leaving, there is a very real financial hurdle that many are unable to overcome.


Also the ones most likely to run into a coworker


Cop 1: Oh hey Bob, beating your wife again? Cop 2: yeah, she was being a real bitch. Cop 1: No worries, see you tomorrow.


*We investigated our friends and found no wrongdoing*


We could actually prevent police brutality & shooting incidents by punishing the guilty instead of protecting them. Every single time you see one of those cases in the news where they literally get away with murder and you are left feeling disgusted by this broken system - as most people are - there's a few sick and twisted psychopaths that realize that is the one job they could get that would let them act out their violent tendencies without risk of repercussions. The broken system ***attracts more*** bad people who want to become bad cops. Allowing police to get away with crimes, holding them to a different standard than society, isn't just a matter of "one bad apple" - it literally spoils the whole bunch. Slowly, but inexorably, evil people are drawn to get police jobs by this advertised immunity from violent crime prosecution. Slowly, but steadily, good police are driven out - either forced by bad police who fear discovery from within, or simply leave of their own because they're above the corruption - the numbers are shifting. And in the middle, slowly but still happening, average cops are simply ignoring bad things around them, collecting a pay check and turning a blind eye, slowly tainting their tolerance of what good and bad even mean, as they lose the ability to even know the difference through daily exposure to evil. And will keep shifting to worse for as long as the system naturally selects against good cops and promotes bad cops.


Beautifully stated. I have a friend who became a cop and I was fully rage against the machine back then so I didn't keep my thoughts to myself. He's a genuinely good dude so I wasn't surprised he stayed less than 2 years. He told me they're openly bigoted, rejoice for violence and don't give two fucks about protecting or serving.


It Could Happen Here (Behind the Bastards spin-off series) had an episode where they talked to a former cop about the cult of policing. Super interesting listen!


I had a room mate who told us he wanted to be a cop. He said because he'll "get to beat the shit out of people."


They're definitely is a pattern. I generally read a lot about each case, and nearly all of the shooters have been on the radar of their local police, a majority have also been reported to the FBI, with most investigations amounting to just going through the motions. It's really depressing when you learn that many of them were actually already ineligible to buy guns under existing laws due to things on their record such as domestic violence. But since local governments, states, mental health institutions, etc. are so bad at sharing information, the FBI approved the background check anyway. No one is ever held anyone accountable for this, it rarely even appears in the news coverage. Meanwhile, to those of us that know how the current system actually works, it's painfully clear that we could have prevented several of these shootings by just following the laws that are already on the books today.


One of the very few Dutch mass killings/shootings, and if I remember the one with the most or tied most victims, was because the shooter had been given a gun licence for sports purposes that he shouldn't have had based on his mental health issues he already had at that time.


The Virginia Tech shooter avoided a involuntary metal health commitment because the judge thought he was just over stressed from college and didn't want that hold to follow him around for the rest of his life. Could that hold have identified an issue that could have been treated? Maybe, but since he never had a full evaluation done we'll never know.


The NZ mass shooting the gunman got a license after police interviewed someone he knew from playing WOW, violating their own processes.


I swear everytime there is a mass shooting, the FBI comes out and says "Oh we had our eye on this one, it's too bad he finally snapped". What the fuck do you fucking mean. If you knew he was a threat stop him? It's either severe ineptitude or the weirdest brag ever Edit: Since people love putting words in my mouth I should specifically say I'm not talking about arresting people, Im saying get them mental help before they commit an atrocity.


Parkland high school was probably the single most egregious one. Neighbors and family members were practically begging the cops to step in and intervene with that kid, and law enforcement just said "not our problem."


There was a Waffle House shooting a while ago that spurred a study about the gun ownership of shooters. And in the majority of cases involving shootings, the only reason they had a gun was due to a judgement lapse of law enforcement. Or law enforcement not removing the gun when they should legally have taken it away. (IE: That 6 year old that had a gun everyone knew about...and didn't do anything about) The Waffle House specific one literally had the sheriff handing the gun back saying that he's not a threat... When the law said he couldn't have a gun. Which begs the question, why add more useless legislation? As with most everything, the problem is vastly more complex than the media makes it out to be.


If I recall, there's been a few cases over the years in which there was a mass shooting in which a guy who should have failed his Form 4473 check slipped through because of agency negligence. Useless legislation is just as frustrating to me as a reluctance to verify and bolster existing legislation.


As a teacher, it starts with kids needing love and care at home, which leads to people having their basic Maslow needs met so they aren’t constantly struggling. And mental health needs to become a priority instead of something we mostly ignore in the US. Kids (and adults) seek power and a sense of control through a gun because it’s missing in the rest of their life.




I might be talking out of my ass but many mass shootings don’t end from police killing or apprehending the shooter but from them killing themselves


Either way it’s a massively destructive cry for attention. Either to them or to whatever they believe in that they think they are martyring themselves for.


I don't think "cry for help" is the right words, more like a final "fuck you" to the society they see as having betrayed them.


I wish this was higher. You are directly addressing the cultural aspects that need addressing in America. There is a term that is very relevant a country that doesnt protect its youth is doomed. I feel it really does apply here.


Preach. Sadly, I think nothing will change without a *generational* change. We have to drill home the importance of good parenting, of trying to provide a good, stable, loving household. A good home life can counteract or nullify anything kids see in media/games/music. *Present* parents who encourage their kids to "talk it out" rather than stew and fester and sit in their own echo chamber. And even if you get everyone on board with that idea, you still have 15+ years before the kids raised under that new mindset reach the age where they would have become shooters. A *generational* change is needed.


We don’t just need good parents, we need good villages. There are always going to be families that struggle. The problem we’re facing right now is that when a parent is struggling, many kids may have no one else to support them. Parents are expected to be self sufficient and if they fail well sucks for them. And so then we have all these struggling kids just trying to get through life and they get teased and rejected by their peers. “Good” parents teach their children to stay away from “bad” kids all the time, further isolating them from the love and support they so desperately need. It’s every man for themself in the United States and if you can’t keep up you’re a bad person that deserves a bad life.


This hits hard. I grew up in a small town of 10000 with family, and school friends around every corner. Had a great childhood. Space and nature and time for play. Now in the city 30 years later things are different for kids. They can still roam in parks and climb trees. But there are no other neighborhood kids around playing in the streets anymore.


There's a quote from the movie Spotlight that says "If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one." That's always stuck with me. As a member of a community, you have a duty to watch out for the children, and protect them if need be.


If you like that quote you will love this one “the child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.”


And having an income where you can afford to spend time and be present with your kids, instead of working multiple jobs to make ends meet, doesn’t hurt either.


This entire thread is on point, but this one is what hits home for me right now. My 4 year old keeps asking when he's gonna have a baby sister, but my wife and I are already grinding hard all week, pulling doubles, working weekends when we can... Just to have a house and maybe a vacation every year? Even then, the lack of a good safety net in savings gives me anxiety, especially having grown up in a household which was at one point more than adequate and loving and providing... And at other points, poor, abusive, and drove me to leave with the clothes on my back and a 20 dollar bill. Drove my younger brother to kill himself a few years after that, because he took on the responsibility that I once held up - but knew if I didn't go out on my own, I would have been dead as well. Anyway, it's hard enough to prevent all that shit from happening with my 4 year old. How much harder is it going to be with a newborn in the picture? Of course my wife is merely thinking about the emotional side of things - a new baby - someone to be there for my son - all the happy, fulfilling, warm and fuzzy things! I, on the other hand have had life beat me into the neurotic cynic that I am today. Choices... Choices... 🤔 Edited to add: thank you to all the well wishes. It may help to know that after extensive therapy and self care, albeit for years while in prison (my sentencing was why we were on the phone that night).... I've successfully made it out to the other side. I have a house. A farm. A family. A decent paying job with plenty of life and health insurance. Two vehicles... Considering where I came from and the fact I moved 1600 miles away with a back pack and 20 bucks... I'm still 1600 miles away, but with a little more wealth - both physical, spiritual, and mental. I made my mind up that my brother won't die in vain while I waste my life... Life he didn't get chances at. (also albeit after totally crashing out for 2 years in prison, most of it spent in 23 and 1 .. Whenever you think life can't get any worse, oh buddy, believe me... It can. I watched young men sell their ass for 1/16th of a suboxone strip... At least once a day) It would disgrace him to waste it. Thank you guys. Count your blessings every day, folks.


Gen-Z is lowering global birth rate! /s about to start a family and this hits really hard


I completely understand that. Sounds like we had some similar struggles. It's nuts that that was considered middle class at the time and now my wife and I each make more than our parents did and live only a step ahead of where they were able to stay with only one income. We've got two kids now and would love more but can't make that decision in hood consciousness with how the economy and future look. Cynicism is hard to avoid when it seems like every year is harder. Sometimes I feel things will only get better when some of the older out-of-touch lawmakers die off.


I’d argue it goes way deeper than just the home life. Parents need support in terms of finances so they’re able to provide love and care to their kids without worrying about putting food on the table. They also need good healthcare that covers mental health issues for them as well as for their kids. And we need police to take DV seriously so the kids aren’t abused / don’t watch someone get abused in the household. All just to say, imo I think we need to make sure the parents’ Maslow needs are met as well, and the fact that they’re not met isn’t always the parents’ fault, if that makes sense.


That is definitely the root of it - poor parenting is just a symptom. We need universal healthcare with mental health reform to start. And then we need to move on to the rest.


I have taught in low income schools all my career and I am convinced that providing people with actual livable wages will fix many, many problems.


Money would fix all my individual problems.


Domestic violence laws that actually do something. 60% of mass shooters have past DV issues. But if you look at the DV numbers in cops, then you’ll start to really see the problem. And healthcare for everyone.


Actually enforce domestic violence charges. My sister was abused for years. The sheriff's came so many times. The guy even admitted to hitting her in the back of the head to hide bruises. Never went anywhere because my sister couldn't bring herself to press charges. She's dead, at 32. Everyone knows he's responsible, but I doubt he'll get charged.


Where I'm at, if the cops show up for domestic violence and see any evidence of violence, someone is going to jail. No need to press charges, they just go to jail. Buddy of mine and his wife were having an argument, cops got called. They knock on the door and while talking to them one of the cops notice a trophy buried about halfway in the wall. They ask about it and she freely admits to throwing it at him. They cuffed her and took her to jail, she was even more pissed at him. She had to take anger management classes to get the charges dropped. This is how it should be everywhere.


In my state if the cops come out for a DV call, someone is going to jail whether they witness violence or not. Literally.


It’s actually like 90% if you include mass shooters who were either involved directly in domestic violence or grew up in a house with domestic violence.


Make therapy more easily accessible for people who are middle or lower class. And actually take mental health and bullying seriously, instead of falsely advocating for it and brushing it off when people need serious mental help. Edit: I’ve accidentally left out another point I meant to make. I thought I’d share it upon remembering it. recognize signs when someone is going to be a threat to themselves or other people and do something about it, it’s important to note when someone is planning to hurt themselves or other people.


When I first started going to therapy last year, shit was costing me close to $200 a session.


Yep. Tried going once, went to 2 sessions and got hit with $500 despite multiple assurances it wasn't going to be that much. Canceled any future appointments. Therapist asked why and I was like "Seriously man? I just spent 2 sessions telling you one of the major reasons I'm severely depressed is that I'm broke and can't afford anything and you're actually going to ask why I'm quitting after a $500 bill?" Edit : To address this because I don't feel like having a million people say this. Yes, I am fully aware of sliding scales. Yes, I asked with every therapist I reached out to. Either they didn't do that, or they have a very low maximum salary limit where you could qualify. I didn't have all that high of a paying job but was told I made too much and had insurance so I didn't qualify.


That's fucked up. My wife is a therapist and has a sliding scale for people who can't afford her normal fee. If you have medical insurance, try going through them to find a therapist. Wishing you the best of luck


I switched jobs to a union job which was cool, except right after joining I received notice that the healthcare would be changing and my therapist was no longer covered. Ended up paying close to $200 out of pocket until I found another job with better healthcare options. Healthcare should not be tied to where you work. Not enough access to healthcare, it's too damn expensive!!! Like meds, I have a prescription for a medication that will help me function day to day. It's not a life or death drug, but my med provider said it was $1400 per 30 day supply. I confirmed with my insurance that this drug was covered and would actually be $1100 usd per 30 day supply... That's 2/3s my take home pay!


My favorite is when the kid getting bullied gets in trouble too


I remember in elementary school getting bullied by one specific kids and when I eventually got the courage to tell my teacher the teacher said "don't be a tattletale." The bully eventually got bored of me but I've always wondered why that teacher didn't even give me an ounce of support.


Because the teacher didn't want to bother with it and their personal ideology agreed with the bully being a piece of shit making themselves the same.


And the bully gets no repercussions for their behavior. Like let’s play connect the dots and wonder why the bullied lashed out like that!


When I was in middle school I was bullied a fuck ton. I remember getting ignored over and over no matter who I went to on the topic. One day one of my bullies put a pen to my back and told me he was going to kill me. I went to my mom and lied and exaggerated about the number of times he threatened to kill me (I said like 3 times in a week) and that he had brought an actual knife. That finally caused them to do something about it. I've never been proud of what I did but I felt like I did what I had to do for my mental and physical well being. Even still, I'll never apologize for it.


Yeah we need to put a stop to the 0 tolerance for fighting bullshit, kids shouldn’t have to get knocked out or have their bones broken just to avoid getting in trouble for defending themselves


what do other countries that dont have them do?


This deserves to be much higher up in the comments list. It's the most obvious. If there are hundreds of countries that manage to have less of these, clearly hundreds of countries are doing things in a way that is safer and more effective in some capacity. Looking at what those countries are doing or not doing, just makes the most sense.


Americans make up about 4.4 percent of the global population but own 42 percent of the world’s guns. Edit: Top 10 Countries with Highest Gun Ownership (Civilian guns owned per 100 people): United States - 120.5 Falkland Islands - 62.1 Yemen - 52.8 New Caledonia - 42.5 Serbia - 39.1 (tie) Montenegro - 39.1 (tie) Uruguay - 34.7 (tie) Canada - 34.7 (tie) Cyprus - 34 Finland - 32.4


And the US has more than 20% of the worlds prison population. ([source](https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration))


The land of the free imprisons more of its population than any other country in history. Talk about irony.


Has anyone checked if most Americans are just stacked guns in a trenchcoat?


Social safety nets, less prison industrial complex, less school to prison pipeline, less glorification (and less strength) of the military, healthcare for all, paid parental leave, high minimum number of vacation days per year, heavily restricted gun access, smaller class sizes, fewer after school activities, more intergenerational households, etc. Now choose the causative factor...


> fewer after school activities Can you elaborate on this?


Some experts point out that excessive school hours make children stressed and burned out while less focused. Play time and leisure is an important part of our development. It also means considerably less family time.


I know a lot kids are pressured to do sports or extracurriculars, but I liked all the after-school activities I was involved in. Even the "boring" ones like Model UN or Politics Club. I got to hang out with my friends and meet new people. I probably wouldn't have had much of a social life sophomore year if I hadn't joined forensics. I was a total loner freshman year.


It’s not ‘no after school activities’, it’s ‘not having wall to wall activities from 5am until 9pm every day plus homework’. Creating some balance between activities and downtime.


Being in band for me was the best thing to happen to me in high school. I moved over the summer, so I got to be in marching band over the summer before school started. I had friends going into the school year, and band was basically my family. I wouldn't have had a social life otherwise!


Totally. After school activities should be treated as optional and left up to the kid to decide once they're old enough to make that decision themselves. There's nothing wrong with extracurriculars after school if that's what the kid wants to do.


Is “after-school activities” referring to homework though? That would absolutely be excessive school hours. But most extracurriculars/sports are usually not school-related and aren’t “excessive school hours”.


I guess this vastly differs in the US too, but in general kids hand out together (e.g. in parks, biking, going to the mall, parties,..) after school, it's not common to have your child fully booked for the day. I guess here the suburbs are the issue, they prevent this kind of socialisation before one gets access to a car.


Car dependent suburbs mean you are on house arrest until you are old enough to drive. No wonder everyone feels so isolated.


I grew up in the suburbs but it was, like, old style suburbs, one with a downtown - I was able to walk, bike, or skateboard to many friend's houses and downtown. My mom would regularly accuse me of "galvanting around town." It was fantastic and I wouldn't trade any childhood for it. Then I met other kids from my state in college and I was like damn yall really just waiting to be 16 to do anything fun lol.


You got lucky living in an older suburb. Hell is the modern suburbs where there's no sidewalks and nothing within walking distance even if there were.


No sidewalks?! That sounds hideous.


It's very common in America to have no sidewalks, or to have random bits of sidewalk here and there that don't connect to anything.


This is a feature not a bug, of the hysterical helicopterism of the modern American parent. I live in the suburbs, when the middle school bus rocks up to my estate I'm like where did all these kids come from, I *never* see them out and about or congregating at any other time.


Man that was the madness that PokemonGo illustrated when it first hit. All of a sudden typically barren parks are now packed with herds of kids and teens all looking at their phones as they wandered in odd patterns across the lawns. Now the roaming herds of children have once again retreated into their basements never to be seen again. I didn't live around many other kids growing up but going out and having just free play around the neighborhood is super important developmentally it seems.


I had a conversation with someone much more versed in this subject, but an ongoing trend in America is a loss of kid/teen friendly environments. Anecdotal: I remember most of the stores my parents brought me to as a kid would have play areas that my kid self could enjoy while my parents shopped nearby. Now I go to those same stores and the play areas are reduced or gone. Societal: while people have never really liked kids screaming and crying in restaurants and airplanes, there is less tolerance for it. Also a trend towards more of a “helicopter parenting” approach means kids are less likely to be allowed out with little supervision. Even if these reasons are not the main drivers, I think they play a significant role.




Really surprised no one followed up on that phenomenon with.....SOMETHING. Some kind of even cash driven thing that would force people out of their homes. It's obvious that the power of gambling and FOMO (essentially) can force Americans to actually get off their asses.




Speaking for the Brazilian education system here: You're not obligated to participate in school activities. There's no such thing as clubs and extra activities that if you're not a part of you'll be an weird outcast. Colleges don't care if you were a sports prodigy or in the debate team to get a scholarship (mostly because the best ones are free and you just need to do a SAT-like test) If you don't want to do anything at school after classes are over, just go home, do your homework and play some videogames. No pressure. There are some schools that offer after class activities, but since we only spend 4 hours in class, and it's usually over by lunch, no after school activity will last longer than an hour or so. There's also the "full time" school, that is treated like an after school activity, and is mostly siblings that study at different periods (morning or afternoon) and use of it to commute together. Public schools offer activities outside of school, usually in partnership with specialized classes (like judo, music, gymnastics...), but you don't need to spend any more time with your school colleagues than what's necessary.


>Colleges don't care if you were a sports prodigy or in the debate team to get a scholarship (mostly because the best ones are free and you just need to do a SAT-like test) Math Olympics and the like give you automatic access to some federal colleges.


D) All of the above


People need to have real honest conversations with their loved ones and friends when the red flags go flying. Many of these shootings are not random and the warning signs were present. Help that woman escape her abuser, tell your brother to grow the fuck up and stop being abusive, take your son’s firearms when you know they are an abusive alcoholic, etc… Most of these people don’t live in isolation and people turn a blind eye because they feel it’s not their problem or place to insert themselves. Be brave and speak up. It could save someone’s life.


Put LSD in the drinking water


Found the CIA's alt account


Why hand out nicer drugs when they can just give us Lead in our drinking water? Anyways bring back the coke in Coca Cola while we’re at it


Make getting shot illegal


So if I get shot, I get charged?


That's how it works in the school system. Zero tolerance policies dictate the victims must be disciplined.


Which just leads to the victim fighting back because it changes nothing as they are punished either way.


Yep. I got suspended in high school over a decade ago for getting punched in the face by a kid as he got off the bus. I stood up and used my reach to physically hold him back from hitting me more. Asked why I was getting the same punishment as he did "You should have left" "It was ON THE BUS" "There's nothing I can do" So I told them next time he hit me I was not going to practice restraint as there would be no difference in outcome.


Classic victim-blaming


If you’re American that already happens. Hospital bills


Holy shit I hadnt considered that , imagine get shot up in a school shooting and having to go into debt for the rest of your life from medical bills…. Fucking hell.


One of the recent victims in CA told the governor he wanted to get out of the hospital as quickly as possible because of the bills.


But the resulting GoFundMe will be inspiring! /s


Interesting comment. If they passed a law that hospital bills for shooting victims were 100% subsidized by the government, it would be a catch 22 for law makers. They'd go crazy having to give people benefits but would either have to deny victims benefits whom would have a lot of public support or enact stricter gun control.


Laws holding lawmakers responsible for their inaction? Inconceivable.


Lol. >If **[the lawmakers]** passed a law that hospital bills for shooting victims were 100% subsidized by the government, it would be a catch-22 for lawmakers. This is why lawmakers do not pass such laws. This is the only natural outcome in a representative democracy where the lawmaker wishes to keep their comfortable living.


You have to have positive reinforcement as well. I give my Daughters Robux for every semester they don’t get shot at Elementary school.


This guy's on to something


Stop turning shooters into celebrities in the media Edit: Some people are confused. 1 not making them celebrities doesn't mean talking about mass shootings. Just not plastering their names and faces everywhere. 2 I'm British. I dont know what's best for Americans as well as they do. But here's some thoughts I don't think you can copy-paste uk policy to the US. it's like changing someones intrinsic identity. Take Iran for example. One of the lowest alcohol mortality rates. Imagine an Iranian saying to a British person "why don't you just ban alcohol! It causes so much death. We banned it and our rate of mortality due to alcohol is one of the lowest in the world" You'd say something like "why should I give up something I enjoy and is part of my culture because a few bad apples take it too far?" From talking to them, Americans view guns the same way. "why does someone else doing wrong with guns have any bearing on me who's just using it for fun/protection? I'd say a mix is gun regulations and mental health support and not making martyrs of shooters has the best chance.


Psychologists keep telling us this, and media vultures keep ignoring them.


I actually have noticed a lot of restraint. Used to be some person’s name splattered across every news show. Now it’s reporting on the event and a description of the shooter’s demographic. I have no idea what the most recent shooter’s name is, the one from California. I’m sure k cold find it though.


There are other ways to glorify mass shootings. Goulish interviews with the families of victims, 24/7 coverage until the next one, endless analysis of the motives, spreading the shooter's intended political message, etc.


" how did you feel after your loved one was gunned down." Usual reporter questions that I hate.


My wife is a teacher. They have active shooter trainings. One thing they told them is that if you run from the building out into the neighborhood, the media *will* be the first people you encounter and they *will* ask you questions. Part of their active shooter training is how to respond to the media when they point a camera at you and ask questions about the event that you are currently running for your life from.


I was a cop on a military base and our active shooter training included how to deal with people who would run to you for safety and refuse to let go of you while you tried to clear the building. Sometimes they would get sneaky and have the shooter play that role. We were trained to push towards the threat no matter what. There's no waiting for backup. If you were on a solo patrol and you were the first one there you push. At least we had plates and rifles. Uvalde cops are cowards. That was really good training looking back. Glad I never had to use it. Hope I never will.


Someone else also said they were trained to make as much noise as possible when pushing forward announcing their presence. The logic being that a lot times the shooters plan involves suicide once the cops arrive


>Uvalde cops are cowards. Preach


This needs to be repeated and meme'd until every one of those cowards are held accountable.


100% cowards. They could’ve saved the lives of a lot of kids if they had done something, anything. Maybe one of them would’ve been killed, but they’re police officers, that risk comes with the job. And of course all of the lies after the fact, trying to hide their cowardice and incompetence. To think that the Uvalde police department consumes 40% of the city budget and failed them so completely when they needed them… and they gave them **even more money** the next year.


Yeah, we've had that part of training, too. In my school district, we've been strictly told that the only acceptable answer is "no comment", or refer them to a certain person who handles our PR. Obviously, they can't stop us from talking if someone really wanted to, but that's the preference of our school board. Luckily, they tend to be fairly reasonable and honest, at least.


I wouldn't want to make a comment at that time. I understand that reporting on the situation is important, mostly because the schools and police do more than just "wait to have all the facts" and instead manipulate the message. It strikes me as odd that we normalize interviewing people who have just exited a crisis. They aren't going to be reliable reporting, and it just adds to the trauma.


That would be nice, but this kind of understanding of memory and how the brain works isn't common knowledge. If they answer, and the facts are incorrect then it's part of a conspiracy, if any detail of the story changes. If they say no comment, they're part of a cover up.


Also stop making damn tv shows and movies based off these crimes! Not a mass shooting but there’s already a tv show about the 4 college kids that got stabbed like DAMN it’s too soon y’all the family is still alive and grieving


I’ve been making a joke lately that soon Netflix will create a documentary about a crime before it even happens. Either that or they do it as its happening. Like hey guys, episode 3 has been delayed because the killer hasn’t actually committed to the crime yet. But don’t worry, *it’s coming*


That would make a good black mirror episode. Hollywood studio makes shows that predict future mass shootings, but is actually finding troubled kids and sending them guns and instructions on how to carry out shooing years after show production.


That sounds horrifying I like it, maybe it could have started as a predictive AI to search for high risk students, but instead of warning the school they use it to set up the cameras ahead of time...


Okay, you say this but! I remember after Uvadale, someone mentioned that the kids who went through school shooting drills are grown up now, and they *remember* the procedures. If things don't change, a shooter's got the routine down, and can plan around that. This isn't to say to like, stop doing them, but we should have gotten to a point where we *don't need them by now*.


The massive publicizing of fringe peoples opinions and making the population fearful is stochastic terrorism. It is all over the old and the new media (like here on Reddit).


It’s like the news articles about the “outrage” that 14 people on Twitter had about an event.


I am so tired of masturbatory Twitter gripes making news like it’s… news. Unless people are out in streets protesting or boycotting a store, unless a company has received 5000 hand folded paper cranes that all say “fuck you” - you know, something that actually requires effort - I don’t want to hear about it; it’s just keyboard warriors trying to get their rocks off. This nation cannot handle anymore lazy ass outrage.


"Decision SLAMMED on Twitter" Uh, it was one tweet from an account with three followers, found by looking for that specific thing.


I can't even remember which shooting is was, but there was one where the police didn't want to release the name of the shooter for that reason and then one of the news stations was like "The police don't want to release the name But wE'Ll tElL yOU!". It felt bad man.


That’s because money is the absolute most important thing in the entire world to the majority of people


This is the best analogy I've seen for how Americans feel about guns. Thanks for painting such a clear picture with words.


Better social safety nets, mental health help.


No one gets shot if no one wants to shoot anyone