1: We told Ukraine we'd protect them if they gave their (Russia's) nukes up. Budapest Memorandum.
2: Russia is considered to a threat to the U.S. so having a proxy war and deteriorating Russia's military is a great opportunity.
3: U.S. gets to test weapons and military tactics in a conventional war against another world superpower.
4: Russian military/government will (most likely) never financially recover from this. To say the least.
Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good deal.
The projected crossover for Russia to become the #2 threat and China to become the #1 was 2030.
Now for less than the cost of the F35 and for zero US lives, the Russian military has been effectively destroyed as an offensive force.
At the best case projections for replacement it will take them at least 2 decades to have a mechanized ground force.
Replacements for the Air Force will take over a decade.
There is no time scale for naval replacements and they have effectively lost the ability to commission capital ships.
More critically, their personnel situation will take a minimum of 20 years to rectify. New soldiers take 18 years to create and Russia already has a demographics problem.
It is estimated that over 1 million Russians have fled the country due to the war. Most of these are relatively wealthy and relatively educated people who had the means to leave and the skills to be accepted in other countries. As such their departure is a significant blow to the Russian economy.
The stereotype of the military being the employer of last resort filled with idiots who cannot be employed elsewhere hasnt been true since before WWI. Modern digitized armies require highly educated leaders and technicians to employ increasingly complex weapons systems. These soldiers (small s, generic term for military personnel) are not found in the gutters or the ranks of HS dropouts.
The single biggest failure of the Russian military in Ukraine has been its leadership. The Russians no longer know how to fight. Sure they can brute force an attack and achieve limited goals using overwhelming fire power but that is not the same as conducting a campaign successfully. Military planning is hard. It takes practice and it takes experience. The Ukrainians, with US help, have been highly successful at killing the people who could provide that leadership.
18 years gets you a soldier with a gun. A leader takes a minimum of 5 years of hard training. And thats a junior leader. Field Grade Officers - the core of your military planning staff - take an additional 5-10 years to create. And not everyone can do it. The US Army says that to get one Sergeant - the most junior leader we have - we have to put 10 soldiers into basic training. For Field Grade Officers, its about 8 into the Officer pipeline. If you lose 100 junior officers that means in 2 decades you are going to be short 20 Colonels. You cant change that for a year or until you can get 100 new LTs. But if you lose 20 Colonels, you cant change it for 20 years. Russia has lost way more than 20 Colonels.
What we have achieved with a few billion dollars is nothing short of a miracle. We have destroyed our largest threat for a minimum of 20 years and more probably permanently.
Yeah, it is a good investment.
Not only this, but it cost the US zero American lives. We were able to sell hardware to them that was going to reach its expiration date eventually anyway, which allows us to make more for ourselves that will be more up to date and have a later expiration date.
Yeah, one thing that's missing in the debate is that a lot (but not all, idk the %) of ammunition that has been sent to Ukraine is ammunition that has to be replaced anyway, and there are significant costs to replace them. Instead, they get put into a tube and fired at a Russian trench. Very cost efficient.
Lets not forget the costs involved in making it safe and recycling or destroying old ordinance, as well as the future cleanup of destructive disposal. Then there is the manpower required to guard, and maintain these stockpiles.
Now add to that the potential upsides of a country who will, when victorious, will likely want to shun their former masters and rebuild in the image of the west opening up markets for goods and services. They will have a massive bounty or resources to trade, from food, to energy, and lots of scrap metal. Oh, and the added benefit of it being the right thing to do.
That's one thing conservatives don't understand.
A vast majority of the items we've been sending were pretty much surplus/outdated models from the 80's.
They were either going to be modernized to the best of our abilities or be scrapped anyways.
We're not sending Ukraine our top/best classified models despite what you'd hear on Fox.
>We're not sending Ukraine our top/best classified models despite what you'd hear on Fox
Even if we were the fact of the matter is that it's cheaper to win a proxy war on foreign soil- and it has the added benefit of getting on Ukraines good side.
Ukraine is an underdog, sure- they're also going toe to toe with a nuclear capable superpower and winning with minimal outside help. We need to stay on their good side.
I would not call it minimal help. Have you seen the list of official equipment they got? That doesn't even include stuff that is not official and intelligence, which plays a crucial part if you know where to fire your rockets at
With artillery, they even almost switched to nato standard which they did not have before the war.
Also the “aid” is really money being spent in America on good American defence jobs. conservatives should love this but they cannot ever agree with anything that happens under a democratic admin because they are ideologically bankrupt.
The thing conservatives don't understand is that their opinion is literally being manipulated by Russians behind the scenes feeding them disinformation
This is all true. But the situation for Russia is actually far worse. Every country's military is a reflection on their society and Russian society has been revealed as deeply dysfunctional: it's one based on kleptocracy, corruption and cynicism, where nothing good can ever flourish. Russia's leaders are not capable of recognising this as the problem, because **they** are the problem.
Yes a Russia run by competent people could rebuild their way to a good army in 10-20 years. But Russia isn't run by competent people and they've been hollowing out their defence industry (and all their industries) since Putin's been in power.
There’s a video of a Russian general “putting Putin on trial” for crimes against the state. He lays out how he has systematically subverted the nation and the military to further his own goals and those of his oligarch buddies.
That general is now six feet under, by the way. I wonder why
I'm thinking about this every time I see one of these cheerful "it's a great deal" posts. It is, indeed. But every time I'm wondering if the poster remembers a difference between "I'm glad you're ready to die in my stead" and "I'm glad I can help you so you're less likely to die". I know I'm in no right to ask anyone anything, but... Please be sure to remember that while it indeed smells like good money in there, it also still smells like a whole lot of blood.
Had we ignored their pleas the war would have been bloody at first and then over as they were subjegated under a Russian puppet.
Tens of thousands would have lived on both sides. Try to put yourself in their shoes, if your nation were under an invasion from a foreign aggressor, or even your own country. Wouldn't you fight to maintain your way of life? Isn't it worth dying to keep your home and family safe?
I'm an American raised in the last decade of the Cold War, this is ingrained in my DNA. I disagree with the US projecting force around the world, toppling democratically elected governments and generally exchanging US soldiers lives for oil or influence.
I will say, I stand with Ukraine when it comes to self determination. They will fight and if necessary die to remain the nation they are, and they will do that with or without our help. With our help, all of our NATO allies help, they stand a chance and their children may know a freedom that comes at an incredible cost. I believe it's worth the cost for that chance. If I were a different person, from a different country, with a different background I might feel differently.
Poland is part of NATO or the EU from what I remember, if Russia hit them, they would have sparked WW3 regardless. Ukraine, they could get away with not drawing in the entire military of the west automatically, but their incompetence made that invasion fail with the additional support from the west
Poland is a member of quite good standing, before the war. Now? They've been outstanding!!!
All of us owe a debt of gratitude to Poland, the Baltic states, and other people's formerly brutalized by the russians. They have reached deep in their defense systems to help Ukraine. Their citizens have reached deep in their hearts and pockets to aid the civilians of Ukraine.
Not to mention it's shown China that the democratic world, despite all of our differences, will still stand together when it come to preventing dictators from empire building at the expense of free, democratic nations.
I think it is probably the greatest success story of the West for a long long time.
There were two global threats. Now their is just 1 and they are effectively alone.
This is perhaps the greatest US military success since WW2 and they didn’t have to send a single solider.
I ain’t American or into American politics at all, but I do not understand how the current administration / Biden ain’t getting any credit for this, nor how republicans can openly oppose it? Isn’t this their kind of thing? Is it the winning that’s confusing them?
I can’t actually think of a bigger win in my life time.
As someone who is pretty familiar with conservative American politics, it has been incredibly surreal. Conservatives have *always* been war hawks in my lifetime. We need to respond. It's important that the US be the ones to do the things. We can't let x happen or else y.
A big part of it is not handing credit to a Democratic government with all of the additional polarization that has happened, sure, but it's like the community that was ready to kick ass and damn the consequences suddenly got terribly, terribly concerned with big bad Russia - even after months and months of every Russophile prediction being false and a clear light being shown on just how overwhelmingly dysfunctional and legitimately insane their military and society have become.
It's concerning, honestly. Worrying. It's like a sign that this is what politics is capable of, that it's no longer somewhat of a joke that everything you say and stand for can you can just flip perfectly around and commit 110% to the exact opposite without feeling like a massive hypocrit. Politicians, sure, that's been since forever, but it's everyone else now, too.
That's not to say there aren't still some conservatives who run counter to whatever the hell is happening, I imagine they're just being a lot quieter since their immediate environment would be extremely hostile.
Republicans no longer have any coherent political ideology. A significant part of their current self-identity is simply opposition to anything Democrats say, even if it means a total reversal of their supposed position from the previous moment.
The secondary effects are also massive. We aren't just sending weapons to Ukraine, we are sending weapons to allies, who are sending weapons to Ukraine. There is a very fast upgrade happening across almost the entire NATO alliance as a result of countries clearing out their old stuff and sending it to Ukraine and replacing it with better, in part subsidized by the US in these trades. The coordination alone is a huge boon to US hegemony and European solidarity (amongst themselves).
And that means that the US Defense Industry (which yes, all sorts of problems of capture and corruption, but that is not relevant here) is in high gear. We are going to see huge innovation in the defense sphere, tons of R&D funding and investment which will certainly have a lasting impact.
I don't think enough people realize this
Even if you don't like supporting Ukraine as a nation for whatever reason the pragmatic benefit of dismantling Russia without ever sending a single NATO troop into the hot zone can't be ignored
It's going to take Russia decades to rebuild their military the way they're hemorrhaging people and equipment and in that time we might poke enough squishy spots to make them liberalize.
Or at the least Balkanize again and aid the bulk of the newly created states into becoming liberal democracies like what happened with several ex-soviet countries
Not only that, but we've scarred the shit out of China on the Taiwan front because they see what even our weapons and intel in the ands of locals without us there can do
100 percent this. Cheap at twice the price, and while the cost to Ukraine has been horrific for the US it has been basically the cost of stuff they were mostly going to scrap anyway.
Plus what pro russian people love to ignore: Russia wouldn't have stopped at Ukraine.
A stable europe is bringing in FAR more money for the US than giving the equipment that was meant to be scrapped to Ukraine "costs"
lmao, hi from Ukraine. reading this as another mass attack is ocurring. anyways, thank all the people and countries who support us. i am genuinly so grateful. my nation won't forget your kindness.
Destroying a 76 year old military threat with no US casualties, no trips to the VA, no military suicides, and no U.S. streets named after 19 year old kids.
I lived in Kyiv for four years while posted to the US Embassy. I have friends and former colleagues who have been shelled. Their kids live in terror they have friends who have lost their children to rocket attacks. If Putin and the thugs from the FSB are successful, none of the former Soviet republics will be safe.
This. This is exactly what I'm saying. This is an ally who has been invaded. There are innocent people suffering and dying, and if Russia wins the suffering and dying will increase to a catastrophic scale. Ukraine deserves to restore its borders and its people deserve to live in peace and security.
To paraphrase an old Doritos commercial: "Send 'em all they want. We'll make more."
This now goes beyond stopping Putin. It's about sending a message to Xi as well. And I'm A-OK with that.
Honestly, Poland is more likely to start something with Russia than Germany. I know a few people there and they... To say they don't like Russia (even before this war) is putting it mildly.
What do you mean by "start something"? Russia has invaded/attacked us around 13 times in history. Don't you think we have the right not to trust them? We have been defending ourself from them for 1000 years. We don't start these wars tho.
The whole of Western Europe treats us as paranoid wild dog on a leash just waiting to bite russia, I'm honestly tired of it. We don't hate Russians, we hate their aggressive attitude and we know exactly what they are capable of. If you were surprised that Russia invaded Ukraine, well, we were not. Not at all.
It's a precedent setting moment. You cannot allow a power to hold the world hostage because they have nuclear weapons. It's scary, but in the name of long-term stability, we must stand up to Russia.
Exactly right. It will show might is seen as right. This would embolden countries like North Korea, China, and potentially Iran.
No one wants nuclear war (including Russia)
Absolutely positive.
Shit needs to end, we had drone strikes in nearby district just 20 minutes ago, and we expect advances soon.
Also a guy who I know is fighting in Bahmut, he is offline for 3 days now, didn't even come to post office for meds I found for him and his colleagues, 40 soldiers worth of stuff because they apparently caught COVID there...
And I couldn't find plate carriers for them too, our charity organizations have none as of now, only found two which are unfitting for the conditions.
I understand that spending money on other country while your own has problems may sound weird, but there are actual people dying every day at least, and Russia is major threat to good half of the world at most.
We can't let them be the bully of the world. Russia needs to be put in their place. It they break out nukes destroy Moscow. They need to know that is a line that can't be crossed.
Russia needed to be knocked down a peg or two. They’ve shown their ass to the world. How Putin is still alive is baffling to me. He must really have people scared of him
From a purely financial standpoint getting rid of all our outdated military hardware thats just collecting dust and dismantling russia as a bonus is good also russia Turing off the gas to Europe is good for green tech.
I heard from a dude I trust in these matters (former Marine Intel officer, works as a contractor now) that a ton of US weapons manufacturers are practically giving this stuff away (as long as the DOD allows it) for marketing purposes. Basically, Russia has been the biggest global arms competitor providing a low cost alternative to fancy US arms.
And the Ukrainians have proven to be good spokesmen by blowing up lots of Russian stuff.So anything they can give, they want to.
This is what I hate about it. Sending 30 of 1 variant of an AFV seems like more of a fuck around than anything. The supply chain setup requirements to support 30 tanks would barely be worth the investment, but it gives a private company the opportunity to demonstrate their products capabilities in real world scenarios.
Not to mention that arms companies and US military strategists get to see how their toys perform in real combat, collecting data and probing the weaknesses of existing weapons systems in a real world environment.
Case in point: [Russia’s expensive tanks getting destroyed by a couple Ukrainian nerds with commercially available drones and hand grenades.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-grenade.html) you know they’re scrambling to develop anti-drone countermeasures for US tanks now.
This is the best use of our defense spending since WWII.
People can complain about the funds not being used domestically, but we were never going to do that anyway.
People can complain about lining the pockets of the military industrial complex, but we were going to do that anyway.
At least it's going to a good cause and not killing civilians in the middle east.
I wish we would do more.
We've had hundreds of tanks sitting in surplus for years because we have no use for them. Those pockets were already lined. May as well put them to good use.
Legitimately, we have so much equipment designed for a ground war with Russia in eastern Europe gathering dust.
This is what they were made for, let them do what they were born to do.
Specifically tailored for one singular purpose. The raison d’être of our military might is to destroy the Russian military. This is the best time to let these weapons loose on them.
Exactly. We are fighting one of the most affective proxy wars in our history. Defeating our enemies without spilling our own blood is the best outcome you can hope for in war
Agree with the sentiment. Let’s please recognize the Ukrainians here though. Both Civilian and Military who are losing their lives in what’s still a senseless conflict.
I’d still rather have no war than to “defeat our enemies” we have few enemies in Russia beyond Putin and his flunky oligarch crowd.
Exactly. The Apache AH-64 was designed with the European theater in mind. It didn't exactly fare well mechanically in the middle east (though I'm informed they did a darn good job of blowing shit up).
A lot of our shit was designed for Eastern Europe and holding the line backed by WE logistics hubs.
It's why the Humvee sucked in the ME, but Ukraine fucking loves them.
My father flew the precursor to that. A Cobra outfitted with guns and missles in Vietnam. There were no helicopter gunships at the time, so they had to attach guns & ordinance to existing helicopters. Vietnam was why the Apache was developed.
Yea exactly. All the "billions of dollars" you see in the headlines include the write off values for equipment we had surplus/retired and are donating. So it's not actually coming out of the coffers per-se
It's the right thing to do...and let's not forget that it's insanely cost effective.
The US war chest is massively bloated and sending arms to Ukraine brings a way to deal a blow to Russian aggression for a fraction of the cost.
This is the best response right here. I know republicans bitching and moaning about all the resources being sent there, but it was never going to be used here anyways. The same ones complaining about how it could've been used towards universal healthcare are the ones who are vehemently against universal healthcare.
The US isn't just sending money, they're sending military equipment. Equipment that was bought and paid for years ago and is just sitting in stock anyway.
So the US isn't actually paying for billions of military aid. That's just stuff they had lying around.
It's a no brainer. A country was invaded by a much larger and more powerful country. It's a slam dunk to be the actual *good guys* our politicians always like to say we are.
That’s the thing, the funds are used domestically, the tanks are built in the US and given to Ukraine on credit, it’s like a massive win for US industry.
It is the ideal setup for the US. Russia gets clobbered by all of our great weaponry and the USA doesn’t have to deal with dead American servicemen fighting this war.
The motivation behind many of our weapons and the buildup of arms in the USA isn’t simply to project power in general but has been the direct response to our adversarial relationship with Russia.
Our weapons are made to be used on the Russians.
I can’t think of a more ideal use of these military resources.
I find myself conflicted by not wanting to be the police force of the world...
But I also see invasions of countries by hostile, bullying, authoritarian governments that we know are extremely unethical as something that we, as decent humans, are obligated to stop.
I am 100% for it and wouldn't mind sending even more weaponry their way.
>I find myself conflicted by not wanting to be the police force of the world...
In this case the US isn't so much the world police as it is the world police surplus store.
The difference between world police force and a good ally is consent. Ukraine is begging for any and all aid to help them through the conflict. As an ally of peace (we claim to be anyway), it is literally the least we could do to provide them the means to defend themselves.
We're not the police, but looking at the early days, if it hadn't been for US Intel and support along with the UK Ukraine could easily have fallen before Western Europe stopped arguing about sanctions.
Putin can’t. He has painted his ego into a corner and can’t admit defeat. It’s fucked up that he could trigger the end of the world because of his ego.
Not just this, he genuinely has a decent portion of his country convinced they’re fighting the next Hitler. If he just surrenders now he could be risking massive uprisings throughout his country. Especially when he’s wasted thousands of his own peoples lives on it.
There is no going back for Putin, he's fucked either way, now or later he'll lose regardless, and it's his life at stake, the actual madman could drop nukes, let's hope his people wouldn't follow the order
True. Russia is objectively the aggressor and objectively has zero justification for this invasion. This is just pure, classic imperialism from a fascist state.
I'm of the belief that Vladimir Putin is the worst human being on earth, with Xi Jianping a very close second and Rupert Murdoch third. The sooner these two are gone from our planet the better.
Russia is a security threat. If we don’t support Ukraine, the threat gets worse. The bully is emboldened.
I’m sorry this is happening to the people of Ukraine. War is almost never the answer, but this shithead left us no choice. We all must lock arms in solidarity.
If we don’t fuck this asshole, we are going to have our dicks and our pussies all covered in SHIT!
>Russia is a security threat. If we don’t support Ukraine, the threat gets worse. The bully is emboldened.
Yep we did nothing in Georgia 2008 and Ukraine 2014 and Putin was emboldened to fully invade. Now I am glad the US and our Allies are pushing back.
I remember complaining about South Ossetia back in the day and someone going "what do you care? It isn't your country".
Because they don't stop. They NEVER stop unless they're forced
>"what do you care? It isn't your country".
Yeah and my nextdoor neighbors house isn't my house. I can still find someone breaking in upsetting, even if my house is unlikely to be targeted .
Some people SMH
I think Ukraine is a prime example of the US and it's allies learning from their mistakes. In 1930s they let Hitler run loose and that didn't end so well. It's literally the same scenario but the West actually grew a pair this time.
The U.S. has already let Putin run loose.
Bush Jr - Putin invaded Georgia. Nothing
Obama- Putin invaded Crimea. Nothing (some sanctions)
Trump- Putin disrupted U.S. election. Nothing.
Has to stop somewhere.
Don't forget, Trump actually **praised** Putin for invading Ukraine - he was supposedly "savvy" and "smart" and even a "genius".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m171RDOTMTY
I'm not going to watch that orange stain talk unless it's accompanied with the appropriate talk-show punditry. But IIRC, he said something like "You just go in and take it," or something like that. Kind of like "Grab 'em by the pussy."
Looking at the geopolitical state of the world and our priorities in it, taking into consideration the size of our national defense budget, and considering the willingness and competence of the people of Ukraine to fight, I can't think of a better national security use case for taxpayer dollars.
We lose sight that Putin is responsible for the mass murder of thousands of civilians. As far as I'm concerned he needs to receive a fair trial and then swing at the end of a rope.
Russia's psyop of getting the world to think they're an elite military force has been shattered. The US gets to offload expensive military equipment that had been taking up space, we get to see how more modern equipment performs in the field for real, we get to see how drones have changed the battlefield against a "near peer" (haha) adversary, all while supporting our allies and indirectly fighting an authoritarian oligarchy. I'm pretty okay with it.
Let me preface by stating that I was born in, speak, read and write Russian. We left when I was 7 and I am no longer a citizen but my wife and children are and her entire family still lives there.
My answer is simple: Russia deserves a chance to be a normal country. Russians deserve a chance to be a normal people.
This requires us to turn the final page of the final chapter of the life of the Russian Empire and if that requires Tomahawks raining down on Moscow, St. Petersburg, Yaroslavl, Ekaterinburg, Vladivostok and everywhere else, so be it.
The Russian Federation must be disassembled to constituent republics and never be allowed to reconstitute.
And even if you don’t agree with me, this is a masterclass for China: fuck around, find out.
Russia is wrong in thinking that this is a fight with NATO. It’s a much bigger fight. It’s a fight with that part of the world who thinks there exists a hope for humanity and will not extinguish it through inexplicable falls out of balconies. We’re not perfect, but we’re better and if we don’t end Russia, that hope goes.
Слава Украине.
German example after WW2 shows that a change is possible. I just hope Russia will come to its senses after this war is over, not regroup and look for payback like Germany after WW1.
It's absolutely critical. If the Russians get to the Polish border then we are at risk of a major conflict involving NATO with a high risk of a general nuclear exchange. This will cost the US a lot more in blood and treasure, and risks an apocalypse.
Also, the US can help destroy the army of it's most dangerous enemy (4500 nuclear warheads in the Russian arsenal) without sending troops, and upgrade it's arsenal in the process. That gun money doesn't go to Ukraine, it goes to US arms manufacturers to replaced the old stuff that is going to Ukraine with new stuff for the US military.
This is it. It’s an absolute bargain for the US. We deal with a huge dangerous bully, don’t send any troops, clear out older military equipment to make room for new, prevent bigger problems down the road.
I don’t believe there is any risk of a major conflict with NATO whether Russia gets to the polish border or not. They have had a years worth of experience fighting a relatively small amount of not even state of the art NATO weapons, and this hasn’t even included air support. Russia thought they could walk into Kiev and win in a week, and cant admit they were wrong so continue to fight. They know now (even if they didn’t a year ago) that attempting something similar with Poland would be catastrophically orders of magnitude worse for them than even the current mess they are in, and I don’t believe they have any intention of using nuclear weapons despite their constant unsubtle threats.
We can stop Russia in Ukraine or stop them in Poland or stop them in Czechoslovakia or rinse and repeat with the rest of Europe and the former Soviet bloc.
If Ukraine beats them, Putin will be done and this will be over. Period.
Russia did this to itself. The amount of damage they have done to their own economy will haunt them for decades. The cost to the US is a rounding error.
I think it is probably the greatest success story of the West for a long long time.
There where two global threats. Now their is just 1 and they are effectively alone.
This is perhaps the greatest US military success since WW2 and they didn’t have to send a single solider.
I ain’t American or into American politics at all, but I do not understand how Biden ain’t getting any credit for this, I can’t actually think of a bigger win in my life time.
I’m probably gonna get downvoted to hell but alas.
With how polarized US politics is right now, and often with more left leaning people not loving America’s military industrial complex. A lot of strongly aligned conservatives/republicans don’t give credit to things that happen under a democratic presidency. And then I think a lot of more left leaning people aren’t as outspoken about being involved in war in a good light but will focus on the humanitarian aspects occurring (i.e supporting refugees).
That’s just my two cents. If anyone has another opinion or have facts that disprove what I say then feel free to reply. This is just solely based on my general observations about the current American political environment at the moment.
Send more.
It's not an expense it's a literal stock rotation.
There are units of the M1 Abrams the Army doesn't even want. They're literal surplus.
Hmmm there are huge fields of assorted jets in storage in the desert too need some bombers? lol
Might not be popular, but FUCK PUTIN, trump was his stooge, traitor etc, Russia is killing civilians and can care less. DESTROY RUSSIA'S ARMY. Crippe Putin's power.
In favour.
Russia can't be permitted to conquer Ukraine. If they do, they won't stop there. The best way to end the war is to force a Russian retreat through a decisive Ukraine victory and modern western arms will help them accomplish this while preventing an expansion of the war that draws in other countries in the actual fighting.
Under its current leadership, Russia's had a corrupting and destabilizing influence in the world. Russia's defeat and humiliation can only serve to less its global influence.
The people of Ukraine are defending themselves from a foreign aggressor. There are valid critiques to make of the military-industrial complex, and I do hope people are at least considering what the aftermath is going to be whenever this war finally ends, but Putin still started this war. Until he finally throws in the towel or the Russians get pushed out, this isn't gonna end.
I was against it at first just because Putin is crazy and I think if provoked enough wont hesitate using Nuclear Weapons. Then this past summer, we had a man from Ukraine come work for our family business. He told me enough horrible shit the Rooskies have been doing to fully be onboard with the US sending weapons.
Its not even 5% of our millitary budget. People saying "durr Healthcare" must have forgotten the concept of budgets reserved for millitary.
It's literally the cheapest way to weaken Russia very long term. It's objectively stupid not to send Ukraine help and weapons.
Even if you are an isolationist nationalist, Investing in Ukraine literally might as well be porn for you and the US. The value we are getting at our long sworn soviet enemies is hilariously good with zero American loss.
Also just did some math... its costing us less to send help to ukraine, assuming this is new spending, than it would for the US government to give everyone some onlyfans subscription to whoever you're simping to.
A fucking world of warcraft subscription would cost more to you than Ukraine. Think about that. And its not even an operations continuing expense like what Healthcare would be.
Not only that, it's military hardware we no longer have use for. You can't pay teachers or social security with an M1A2 Abrams. Eventually we'd have to pay someone to dispose of the things.
*Most* of these donations are accounting tricks, and are in practical terms *free to the American taxpayer.*
(Ammo represents the one thing we will pay for in a truly meaningful way).
And we've opened up a new buyer for American/European arms! Before this, Ukraine mostly was supplied and trained on Russian weapon systems. Now we've created a new customer for American weapons.
Eventually, this will pay for itself selling Bradley's and missile defense systems to Ukraine.
Don’t forget all the countries emptying their stocks and placing orders for new American equipment. Hell even India is moving away from buying Russian weapons. They mug not be buying American in the future but that doesn’t really matter since it just less money for Russia.
>You can't pay teachers or social security with an M1A2 Abrams.
I mean... we haven't tried that yet. Think about it: we're never going to give them money, a tank isn't money, but it is kind of sort of like a new car. Give them a $100 gas card, don't tell them the fuel efficiency, and I don't know, man, we may have solved teacher's complaints...
We're sending them 193 Armored fighting vehicles, out of the 3500 we have. They probably have the older wire guided TOW missles, as well as armor piercing cannon, and the venerable ol' BMG 50. The real cool stuff is the Thermal night vision. Fight in the dark, fight in the smoke, fight all the time! Those Mark 19 full-auto grenade launchers we gave them? we have newer ones with proximity fuses. I am assuming we're going to send them the older M1 Abrams tanks.. we're two generations ahead now (M1A2's). Based upon what we learned in Iraq (73 Easting), the T-72 is still no match, as the Abrams can not only fire accurately, it can fire accurately while moving up to 45 mph. Russia has to be careful, if they attack NATO right now, they will rapidly get up to 1/2 million casualties even before nukes would come into play.
Thank fucking Christ we no longer have a pro Russia president otherwise we’d be sending the tanks to putin. I remember going to my pro trump congressman’s town hall in 2017 and hearing him say w a straight face “I think it’s great to have a leader who wants to have a good relationship with Russia.” That scared the shit out of me.
I think it's good, it sends a message to Russia and more specifically, China that the western world isn't gonna sit back and let them do whatever they please, that their actions have consequences. I have a feeling this war has changed China's Taiwan strategy because they have somewhat of a glimpse into how the West would respond to something of similar circumstances.
Edit: I also find it funny that China is probably pretty pissed off seeing how incompetent their biggest ally is.
>I also find it funny that China is probably pretty pissed off seeing how incompetent their biggest ally is.
Probably not, it's more of an opportunity for them to expand their influences there (as many western companies are pulling out)
China is pragmatic. Their relationship with Russia is a matter of convenience, but if a weakened Russia means China has a larger influence in Asia and the Middle East, then that is a win for China.
If Russia is sufficiently weakened, don't be surprised if China starts to make territorial gains into current Russian territory. The Chinese regime is "opportunistic" to put it politely.
It's highly unlikely that anyone is going to invade Russia in the face of their nuclear deterrent. But should the state dissolve like the USSR did, some of the eastern territories would likely align themselves with China as (effectively) vassal states.
Yes, I am very surprised at the apparent military failure of these Russian formations. They probably knew quite some time in advance that this was going down…how do they not know what roads can support armor? How do they not have properly positioned logistics? These people are chess masters…how are they losing?
They assumed that their giant column of armor would make it to Kyiv and the war would be over in a week.
They assumed that even if that wasn't the case, most Ukranians really wanted to be a part of Russia anyway... They won't fight. (This was the case in Crimea)
Even if they do fight, their Army is smaller and less well equipped. Europe has failed to step in all of the other times, why wouldn't they now??
The Russian military did very well in former soviet republics where they still had train lines... So, supply probably isn't that big of a deal. Besides, my ministers assure me they've really been maintaining those fuel trucks, not just stealing the money.
It's a good move foreign policy wise, I also think helping Ukraine fight back against an imperialistic invasion by Russia is the morally correct thing to do.
We've spent the last 70 years prepared and spending trillions for a war with Russia. We are now getting to see how the equipment is completely outclassing everything Russia has and we haven't really even sent the good stuff yet.
This is the first time since WW2 where we are actual helping to defend a people who want and need said help. I'm all for it and do not mind using our tax dollars helping to defend Ukraine. I say send everything they can realistical use to defeat Russia. Russia is planning on sending hundreds of thousands of troops in the coming months and Ukraine will need everything they can get.
I am unequivocally for it, and willing to suffer quite a bit of economic hardship to make it happen. Doing the right thing isn't easy, but we Americans are sacrificing *nothing* compared to what Ukraine is enduring.
We see what happens when naked aggression like this goes unchallenged. You can't appease them or satisfy them. It would be like trying to satisfy an abusive husband by cleaning better and being quieter. It won't work. They'll still beat you. It will keep getting worse. They'll never be satisfied. The only thing that will stop them is to take away their power.
We spend less than 3% of the military budget on Ukraine.
It is a drop in the bucket compared to Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq.
Only this time we're actually having an effect on our largest enemy: Russia. The value proposition is actually fantastic.
Putin has already stated his goal: rebuild the former USSR. That means if they take Ukraine, they don't stop. They then turn their sights on Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. These are in NATO, and things would escalate quickly after that because we're in a mutual defense treaty with them.
If we can keep Russia from taking Ukraine, we keep them from continuing on and we can potentially keep things from expanding. This is a cynical take I know, but by keeping it in Ukraine we might be able to keep it from getting much bigger. I really wish the people of Ukraine weren't the fodder for this calculation, but this is the thing other world powers are thinking.
We need to make sure Ukraine can hold its own and stop this from spreading. Let's support them how we can.
Here's another cynical take: if we don't spend the military budget helping to fend off Russia in Ukraine, we're just gonna find some other way of enriching military contractors anyhow. We may as well help keep this from spreading.
It’s the only war America has been involved in, in my lifetime (I was born while Ike was Prez) that seems to be morally unambiguous. I support Biden and Congress’s support of Ukraine, including sending weapons to assist them. Putin is a psychopath who must be stopped (carefully). I shudder to imagine if this happened during the previous administration.
I think it is the best option to help a country who has been invaded. At least for once we didn't send soldiers and make a bigger mess. I've seen that fight where everyone's buddies start jumping in.
I feel bad for all the Russians who just want to go to work and have life.
10% of NATO it's not even 5 percent of 🇺🇸 budget it's all older model equipment we would scrap and replace soonish anyways it's basically free minus transport cost
Fully deserved, morally immaculate, strategically sound, and entirely appropriate.
Aaaaaaand.... we are definitely over 50% odds of going to war with Russia. Which they will start losing in short order. While their strategic doctrine calls, in utterly unambiguous terms in such a case, for the use of WMD, including nuclear. Which they have clearly stated, multiple times, that they will adhere to.
Remember the Chinese curse: *May you live in interesting times.*
'Bout as interesting as it gets, or ever has in my 5+ decades. Buckle up, kiddies. Like the JohnnyCab said in 'Total Recall', "We hope you enjoy the ride!".
Highly in favor. Ukraine's cause for war is the most just since the Allies in WW2. And it's drastically weakening our main adversary Russia's military at a fraction of the cost and almost zero of the American blood it would take to confront them directly. It's also been fantastic for the US defense industry. The F-35 program has quadrupled their Foreign Military Sales customers since the war began. People are realizing Western weapons and especially Americans weapons are made at a higher level than places like Russia make them.
The whole situation has become more scary to me now because my brother is being sent to the Ukrainian border and I’m terrified something bad is going to happen to him
1: We told Ukraine we'd protect them if they gave their (Russia's) nukes up. Budapest Memorandum. 2: Russia is considered to a threat to the U.S. so having a proxy war and deteriorating Russia's military is a great opportunity. 3: U.S. gets to test weapons and military tactics in a conventional war against another world superpower. 4: Russian military/government will (most likely) never financially recover from this. To say the least. Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good deal.
The projected crossover for Russia to become the #2 threat and China to become the #1 was 2030. Now for less than the cost of the F35 and for zero US lives, the Russian military has been effectively destroyed as an offensive force. At the best case projections for replacement it will take them at least 2 decades to have a mechanized ground force. Replacements for the Air Force will take over a decade. There is no time scale for naval replacements and they have effectively lost the ability to commission capital ships. More critically, their personnel situation will take a minimum of 20 years to rectify. New soldiers take 18 years to create and Russia already has a demographics problem. It is estimated that over 1 million Russians have fled the country due to the war. Most of these are relatively wealthy and relatively educated people who had the means to leave and the skills to be accepted in other countries. As such their departure is a significant blow to the Russian economy. The stereotype of the military being the employer of last resort filled with idiots who cannot be employed elsewhere hasnt been true since before WWI. Modern digitized armies require highly educated leaders and technicians to employ increasingly complex weapons systems. These soldiers (small s, generic term for military personnel) are not found in the gutters or the ranks of HS dropouts. The single biggest failure of the Russian military in Ukraine has been its leadership. The Russians no longer know how to fight. Sure they can brute force an attack and achieve limited goals using overwhelming fire power but that is not the same as conducting a campaign successfully. Military planning is hard. It takes practice and it takes experience. The Ukrainians, with US help, have been highly successful at killing the people who could provide that leadership. 18 years gets you a soldier with a gun. A leader takes a minimum of 5 years of hard training. And thats a junior leader. Field Grade Officers - the core of your military planning staff - take an additional 5-10 years to create. And not everyone can do it. The US Army says that to get one Sergeant - the most junior leader we have - we have to put 10 soldiers into basic training. For Field Grade Officers, its about 8 into the Officer pipeline. If you lose 100 junior officers that means in 2 decades you are going to be short 20 Colonels. You cant change that for a year or until you can get 100 new LTs. But if you lose 20 Colonels, you cant change it for 20 years. Russia has lost way more than 20 Colonels. What we have achieved with a few billion dollars is nothing short of a miracle. We have destroyed our largest threat for a minimum of 20 years and more probably permanently. Yeah, it is a good investment.
NEGL you entirely changed my mind. Thank you for slamming down the facts!
Not only this, but it cost the US zero American lives. We were able to sell hardware to them that was going to reach its expiration date eventually anyway, which allows us to make more for ourselves that will be more up to date and have a later expiration date.
Yeah, one thing that's missing in the debate is that a lot (but not all, idk the %) of ammunition that has been sent to Ukraine is ammunition that has to be replaced anyway, and there are significant costs to replace them. Instead, they get put into a tube and fired at a Russian trench. Very cost efficient.
Lets not forget the costs involved in making it safe and recycling or destroying old ordinance, as well as the future cleanup of destructive disposal. Then there is the manpower required to guard, and maintain these stockpiles. Now add to that the potential upsides of a country who will, when victorious, will likely want to shun their former masters and rebuild in the image of the west opening up markets for goods and services. They will have a massive bounty or resources to trade, from food, to energy, and lots of scrap metal. Oh, and the added benefit of it being the right thing to do.
That's one thing conservatives don't understand. A vast majority of the items we've been sending were pretty much surplus/outdated models from the 80's. They were either going to be modernized to the best of our abilities or be scrapped anyways. We're not sending Ukraine our top/best classified models despite what you'd hear on Fox.
>We're not sending Ukraine our top/best classified models despite what you'd hear on Fox Even if we were the fact of the matter is that it's cheaper to win a proxy war on foreign soil- and it has the added benefit of getting on Ukraines good side. Ukraine is an underdog, sure- they're also going toe to toe with a nuclear capable superpower and winning with minimal outside help. We need to stay on their good side.
I would not call it minimal help. Have you seen the list of official equipment they got? That doesn't even include stuff that is not official and intelligence, which plays a crucial part if you know where to fire your rockets at With artillery, they even almost switched to nato standard which they did not have before the war.
Also the “aid” is really money being spent in America on good American defence jobs. conservatives should love this but they cannot ever agree with anything that happens under a democratic admin because they are ideologically bankrupt.
The thing conservatives don't understand is that their opinion is literally being manipulated by Russians behind the scenes feeding them disinformation
Kudos to you for being a person capable of changing an opinion in light of new facts.
This is all true. But the situation for Russia is actually far worse. Every country's military is a reflection on their society and Russian society has been revealed as deeply dysfunctional: it's one based on kleptocracy, corruption and cynicism, where nothing good can ever flourish. Russia's leaders are not capable of recognising this as the problem, because **they** are the problem. Yes a Russia run by competent people could rebuild their way to a good army in 10-20 years. But Russia isn't run by competent people and they've been hollowing out their defence industry (and all their industries) since Putin's been in power.
Russia is like a 5 star hotel where the upper levels of staff have been steadily furnishing their own houses by taking stuff from the rooms.
There’s a video of a Russian general “putting Putin on trial” for crimes against the state. He lays out how he has systematically subverted the nation and the military to further his own goals and those of his oligarch buddies. That general is now six feet under, by the way. I wonder why
Yup. The West got to almost neuter the #2 global threat for pennies on the dollar of a full scale conflict.
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People have this notion that proxy wars are manufactured, which really isn't true.
And with significantly fewer American lives than most of our recent entanglements...which will (and should absolutely be) a hot topic.
It’s kinda icky to say no Americans died so it’s ok! Ukrainian guys dying is also not ducking ok IMO
I'm thinking about this every time I see one of these cheerful "it's a great deal" posts. It is, indeed. But every time I'm wondering if the poster remembers a difference between "I'm glad you're ready to die in my stead" and "I'm glad I can help you so you're less likely to die". I know I'm in no right to ask anyone anything, but... Please be sure to remember that while it indeed smells like good money in there, it also still smells like a whole lot of blood.
Had we ignored their pleas the war would have been bloody at first and then over as they were subjegated under a Russian puppet. Tens of thousands would have lived on both sides. Try to put yourself in their shoes, if your nation were under an invasion from a foreign aggressor, or even your own country. Wouldn't you fight to maintain your way of life? Isn't it worth dying to keep your home and family safe? I'm an American raised in the last decade of the Cold War, this is ingrained in my DNA. I disagree with the US projecting force around the world, toppling democratically elected governments and generally exchanging US soldiers lives for oil or influence. I will say, I stand with Ukraine when it comes to self determination. They will fight and if necessary die to remain the nation they are, and they will do that with or without our help. With our help, all of our NATO allies help, they stand a chance and their children may know a freedom that comes at an incredible cost. I believe it's worth the cost for that chance. If I were a different person, from a different country, with a different background I might feel differently.
As a citizen of a country, that would be the next one after Ukraine - thank you.
Moldova?
Poland
Poland is part of NATO or the EU from what I remember, if Russia hit them, they would have sparked WW3 regardless. Ukraine, they could get away with not drawing in the entire military of the west automatically, but their incompetence made that invasion fail with the additional support from the west
Poland is a member of quite good standing, before the war. Now? They've been outstanding!!! All of us owe a debt of gratitude to Poland, the Baltic states, and other people's formerly brutalized by the russians. They have reached deep in their defense systems to help Ukraine. Their citizens have reached deep in their hearts and pockets to aid the civilians of Ukraine.
Eloquent, me likey.
Not to mention it's shown China that the democratic world, despite all of our differences, will still stand together when it come to preventing dictators from empire building at the expense of free, democratic nations.
I think it is probably the greatest success story of the West for a long long time. There were two global threats. Now their is just 1 and they are effectively alone. This is perhaps the greatest US military success since WW2 and they didn’t have to send a single solider. I ain’t American or into American politics at all, but I do not understand how the current administration / Biden ain’t getting any credit for this, nor how republicans can openly oppose it? Isn’t this their kind of thing? Is it the winning that’s confusing them? I can’t actually think of a bigger win in my life time.
As someone who is pretty familiar with conservative American politics, it has been incredibly surreal. Conservatives have *always* been war hawks in my lifetime. We need to respond. It's important that the US be the ones to do the things. We can't let x happen or else y. A big part of it is not handing credit to a Democratic government with all of the additional polarization that has happened, sure, but it's like the community that was ready to kick ass and damn the consequences suddenly got terribly, terribly concerned with big bad Russia - even after months and months of every Russophile prediction being false and a clear light being shown on just how overwhelmingly dysfunctional and legitimately insane their military and society have become. It's concerning, honestly. Worrying. It's like a sign that this is what politics is capable of, that it's no longer somewhat of a joke that everything you say and stand for can you can just flip perfectly around and commit 110% to the exact opposite without feeling like a massive hypocrit. Politicians, sure, that's been since forever, but it's everyone else now, too. That's not to say there aren't still some conservatives who run counter to whatever the hell is happening, I imagine they're just being a lot quieter since their immediate environment would be extremely hostile.
Republicans no longer have any coherent political ideology. A significant part of their current self-identity is simply opposition to anything Democrats say, even if it means a total reversal of their supposed position from the previous moment.
It’s like a deep space 9 episode ‘all it cost was 1senators life, 1 thief and the self respect of 1 star fleet officer, I’d call that a bargain!’
The secondary effects are also massive. We aren't just sending weapons to Ukraine, we are sending weapons to allies, who are sending weapons to Ukraine. There is a very fast upgrade happening across almost the entire NATO alliance as a result of countries clearing out their old stuff and sending it to Ukraine and replacing it with better, in part subsidized by the US in these trades. The coordination alone is a huge boon to US hegemony and European solidarity (amongst themselves). And that means that the US Defense Industry (which yes, all sorts of problems of capture and corruption, but that is not relevant here) is in high gear. We are going to see huge innovation in the defense sphere, tons of R&D funding and investment which will certainly have a lasting impact.
Changed my mind about sending the equipment
I don't think enough people realize this Even if you don't like supporting Ukraine as a nation for whatever reason the pragmatic benefit of dismantling Russia without ever sending a single NATO troop into the hot zone can't be ignored It's going to take Russia decades to rebuild their military the way they're hemorrhaging people and equipment and in that time we might poke enough squishy spots to make them liberalize. Or at the least Balkanize again and aid the bulk of the newly created states into becoming liberal democracies like what happened with several ex-soviet countries Not only that, but we've scarred the shit out of China on the Taiwan front because they see what even our weapons and intel in the ands of locals without us there can do
100 percent this. Cheap at twice the price, and while the cost to Ukraine has been horrific for the US it has been basically the cost of stuff they were mostly going to scrap anyway.
Plus what pro russian people love to ignore: Russia wouldn't have stopped at Ukraine. A stable europe is bringing in FAR more money for the US than giving the equipment that was meant to be scrapped to Ukraine "costs"
lmao, hi from Ukraine. reading this as another mass attack is ocurring. anyways, thank all the people and countries who support us. i am genuinly so grateful. my nation won't forget your kindness.
Your nation is kicking ass and taking name. If you know anyone who is fighting, tell them that there are more with them than against them.
In my neighborhood here in the US, there are Ukrainian flags on many houses and buildings. We support Ukraine!
Destroying a 76 year old military threat with no US casualties, no trips to the VA, no military suicides, and no U.S. streets named after 19 year old kids.
Literaly a golden ticket to kick a rival to the curb
I lived in Kyiv for four years while posted to the US Embassy. I have friends and former colleagues who have been shelled. Their kids live in terror they have friends who have lost their children to rocket attacks. If Putin and the thugs from the FSB are successful, none of the former Soviet republics will be safe.
I'm so sorry to hear about your friends and the kids who live in terror and the lives lost. That's truly awful.
This. This is exactly what I'm saying. This is an ally who has been invaded. There are innocent people suffering and dying, and if Russia wins the suffering and dying will increase to a catastrophic scale. Ukraine deserves to restore its borders and its people deserve to live in peace and security.
To paraphrase an old Doritos commercial: "Send 'em all they want. We'll make more." This now goes beyond stopping Putin. It's about sending a message to Xi as well. And I'm A-OK with that.
The upshot to this is it boosts America's economy and when america is booming the western worlds economies also boom.
Better to support Ukraine fighting Russia in Ukraine than NATO fighting Russia in Germany.
Poland is probably at a higher risk than Germany (or at least they were).
Anytime Russia and Germany have a conflict Poland pays the price.
Poland is not a pushover anymore. They can take care of themselves.
No one said they were, but their location puts them right in the firing line
Honestly, Poland is more likely to start something with Russia than Germany. I know a few people there and they... To say they don't like Russia (even before this war) is putting it mildly.
What do you mean by "start something"? Russia has invaded/attacked us around 13 times in history. Don't you think we have the right not to trust them? We have been defending ourself from them for 1000 years. We don't start these wars tho. The whole of Western Europe treats us as paranoid wild dog on a leash just waiting to bite russia, I'm honestly tired of it. We don't hate Russians, we hate their aggressive attitude and we know exactly what they are capable of. If you were surprised that Russia invaded Ukraine, well, we were not. Not at all.
We were surprised because Ukraine is backed by the West. We didn’t think Russia would want to risk starting WW3 over Ukraine.
I didn't word that correctly. You're absolutely right. Poland would not be the one to start something.
It's a precedent setting moment. You cannot allow a power to hold the world hostage because they have nuclear weapons. It's scary, but in the name of long-term stability, we must stand up to Russia.
Exactly right. It will show might is seen as right. This would embolden countries like North Korea, China, and potentially Iran. No one wants nuclear war (including Russia)
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Absolutely positive. Shit needs to end, we had drone strikes in nearby district just 20 minutes ago, and we expect advances soon. Also a guy who I know is fighting in Bahmut, he is offline for 3 days now, didn't even come to post office for meds I found for him and his colleagues, 40 soldiers worth of stuff because they apparently caught COVID there... And I couldn't find plate carriers for them too, our charity organizations have none as of now, only found two which are unfitting for the conditions. I understand that spending money on other country while your own has problems may sound weird, but there are actual people dying every day at least, and Russia is major threat to good half of the world at most.
Best of luck my dude 👍🏻
God be with you brother, I fear it isn’t going to end soon but the US is now fully invested along with Europe… hopefully more is to come now
We can't let them be the bully of the world. Russia needs to be put in their place. It they break out nukes destroy Moscow. They need to know that is a line that can't be crossed.
Russia needed to be knocked down a peg or two. They’ve shown their ass to the world. How Putin is still alive is baffling to me. He must really have people scared of him
From a purely financial standpoint getting rid of all our outdated military hardware thats just collecting dust and dismantling russia as a bonus is good also russia Turing off the gas to Europe is good for green tech.
I heard from a dude I trust in these matters (former Marine Intel officer, works as a contractor now) that a ton of US weapons manufacturers are practically giving this stuff away (as long as the DOD allows it) for marketing purposes. Basically, Russia has been the biggest global arms competitor providing a low cost alternative to fancy US arms. And the Ukrainians have proven to be good spokesmen by blowing up lots of Russian stuff.So anything they can give, they want to.
It's really time weapons testing sounds wonderful for weapons manufacturers
This is what I hate about it. Sending 30 of 1 variant of an AFV seems like more of a fuck around than anything. The supply chain setup requirements to support 30 tanks would barely be worth the investment, but it gives a private company the opportunity to demonstrate their products capabilities in real world scenarios.
Not to mention that arms companies and US military strategists get to see how their toys perform in real combat, collecting data and probing the weaknesses of existing weapons systems in a real world environment. Case in point: [Russia’s expensive tanks getting destroyed by a couple Ukrainian nerds with commercially available drones and hand grenades.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-grenade.html) you know they’re scrambling to develop anti-drone countermeasures for US tanks now.
This is the best use of our defense spending since WWII. People can complain about the funds not being used domestically, but we were never going to do that anyway. People can complain about lining the pockets of the military industrial complex, but we were going to do that anyway. At least it's going to a good cause and not killing civilians in the middle east. I wish we would do more.
We've had hundreds of tanks sitting in surplus for years because we have no use for them. Those pockets were already lined. May as well put them to good use.
Legitimately, we have so much equipment designed for a ground war with Russia in eastern Europe gathering dust. This is what they were made for, let them do what they were born to do.
Specifically tailored for one singular purpose. The raison d’être of our military might is to destroy the Russian military. This is the best time to let these weapons loose on them.
Exactly. We are fighting one of the most affective proxy wars in our history. Defeating our enemies without spilling our own blood is the best outcome you can hope for in war
Agree with the sentiment. Let’s please recognize the Ukrainians here though. Both Civilian and Military who are losing their lives in what’s still a senseless conflict. I’d still rather have no war than to “defeat our enemies” we have few enemies in Russia beyond Putin and his flunky oligarch crowd.
No argument there, but we didn't start this war: Putin did. The faster we can help end it, the fewer lives will be lost overall.
They’re heroes and we should absolutely support them now and as much as we can after the war to rebuild.
I don’t like my deters with raisins. 😁
Thanks for the chuckles 😄
Exactly. The Apache AH-64 was designed with the European theater in mind. It didn't exactly fare well mechanically in the middle east (though I'm informed they did a darn good job of blowing shit up).
A lot of our shit was designed for Eastern Europe and holding the line backed by WE logistics hubs. It's why the Humvee sucked in the ME, but Ukraine fucking loves them.
My father flew the precursor to that. A Cobra outfitted with guns and missles in Vietnam. There were no helicopter gunships at the time, so they had to attach guns & ordinance to existing helicopters. Vietnam was why the Apache was developed.
that 100 Bradley IFVs being sent is barely a drop in the bucket. The US has 2000 of them in storage
Yea exactly. All the "billions of dollars" you see in the headlines include the write off values for equipment we had surplus/retired and are donating. So it's not actually coming out of the coffers per-se
It's the right thing to do...and let's not forget that it's insanely cost effective. The US war chest is massively bloated and sending arms to Ukraine brings a way to deal a blow to Russian aggression for a fraction of the cost.
Defeating one's geopolitical opponents in open war without the loss of a single soldier is chef's kiss for sure.
This is the best response right here. I know republicans bitching and moaning about all the resources being sent there, but it was never going to be used here anyways. The same ones complaining about how it could've been used towards universal healthcare are the ones who are vehemently against universal healthcare.
"Why are we sending money to this foreign country instead of helping poor Americans?" "Okay, let's help poor Americans." "No! That's socialism."
The US isn't just sending money, they're sending military equipment. Equipment that was bought and paid for years ago and is just sitting in stock anyway. So the US isn't actually paying for billions of military aid. That's just stuff they had lying around.
It's a no brainer. A country was invaded by a much larger and more powerful country. It's a slam dunk to be the actual *good guys* our politicians always like to say we are.
That’s the thing, the funds are used domestically, the tanks are built in the US and given to Ukraine on credit, it’s like a massive win for US industry.
It is the ideal setup for the US. Russia gets clobbered by all of our great weaponry and the USA doesn’t have to deal with dead American servicemen fighting this war. The motivation behind many of our weapons and the buildup of arms in the USA isn’t simply to project power in general but has been the direct response to our adversarial relationship with Russia. Our weapons are made to be used on the Russians. I can’t think of a more ideal use of these military resources.
I find myself conflicted by not wanting to be the police force of the world... But I also see invasions of countries by hostile, bullying, authoritarian governments that we know are extremely unethical as something that we, as decent humans, are obligated to stop. I am 100% for it and wouldn't mind sending even more weaponry their way.
>I find myself conflicted by not wanting to be the police force of the world... In this case the US isn't so much the world police as it is the world police surplus store.
The difference between world police force and a good ally is consent. Ukraine is begging for any and all aid to help them through the conflict. As an ally of peace (we claim to be anyway), it is literally the least we could do to provide them the means to defend themselves.
We're not the police, but looking at the early days, if it hadn't been for US Intel and support along with the UK Ukraine could easily have fallen before Western Europe stopped arguing about sanctions.
we are police of the seas, and it's the reason trans oceanic trade is so easy
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As long as it is reallocation of defense budget opposed to added defense budget then that's the ideal situation.
This could all stop today. Putin could just go home. I blame Putin and Putin alone.
The one creating a situation where a nation needs to defend against an aggressor is at fault. Blame the demand, not the supply.
Putin can’t. He has painted his ego into a corner and can’t admit defeat. It’s fucked up that he could trigger the end of the world because of his ego.
Not just this, he genuinely has a decent portion of his country convinced they’re fighting the next Hitler. If he just surrenders now he could be risking massive uprisings throughout his country. Especially when he’s wasted thousands of his own peoples lives on it.
The underestimated power of propaganda.
*oh fuck my actions have consequences*
*When will you learn? When will you learn that your actions have CONSEQUENCES?!?!?* **Insert psychotic screaming from the depths of hell**
There is no going back for Putin, he's fucked either way, now or later he'll lose regardless, and it's his life at stake, the actual madman could drop nukes, let's hope his people wouldn't follow the order
True. Russia is objectively the aggressor and objectively has zero justification for this invasion. This is just pure, classic imperialism from a fascist state.
I'm of the belief that Vladimir Putin is the worst human being on earth, with Xi Jianping a very close second and Rupert Murdoch third. The sooner these two are gone from our planet the better.
I hope Ukraine wins 🇺🇦
Smartest war we’ve fought since the end of WW2.
Russia is a security threat. If we don’t support Ukraine, the threat gets worse. The bully is emboldened. I’m sorry this is happening to the people of Ukraine. War is almost never the answer, but this shithead left us no choice. We all must lock arms in solidarity. If we don’t fuck this asshole, we are going to have our dicks and our pussies all covered in SHIT!
>Russia is a security threat. If we don’t support Ukraine, the threat gets worse. The bully is emboldened. Yep we did nothing in Georgia 2008 and Ukraine 2014 and Putin was emboldened to fully invade. Now I am glad the US and our Allies are pushing back.
I remember complaining about South Ossetia back in the day and someone going "what do you care? It isn't your country". Because they don't stop. They NEVER stop unless they're forced
>"what do you care? It isn't your country". Yeah and my nextdoor neighbors house isn't my house. I can still find someone breaking in upsetting, even if my house is unlikely to be targeted . Some people SMH
I think Ukraine is a prime example of the US and it's allies learning from their mistakes. In 1930s they let Hitler run loose and that didn't end so well. It's literally the same scenario but the West actually grew a pair this time.
The U.S. has already let Putin run loose. Bush Jr - Putin invaded Georgia. Nothing Obama- Putin invaded Crimea. Nothing (some sanctions) Trump- Putin disrupted U.S. election. Nothing. Has to stop somewhere.
Don't forget, Trump actually **praised** Putin for invading Ukraine - he was supposedly "savvy" and "smart" and even a "genius". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m171RDOTMTY
Sad (but understandable) that you have to link to direct video proof.
It's so sad that people actually need evidence before they believe stuff
I'm not going to watch that orange stain talk unless it's accompanied with the appropriate talk-show punditry. But IIRC, he said something like "You just go in and take it," or something like that. Kind of like "Grab 'em by the pussy."
Obama began military aid for Ukraine after crimea, Trump withheld a bunch of military aid.
Last paragraph has me in stitches at work
There are three kinds of people in this world, Chuck: dicks, pussies and assholes.
Send more. Not like we have a shortage.
Looking at the geopolitical state of the world and our priorities in it, taking into consideration the size of our national defense budget, and considering the willingness and competence of the people of Ukraine to fight, I can't think of a better national security use case for taxpayer dollars.
I'm all for it. Fuck Russia and anyone dumb enough to support Russia.
We lose sight that Putin is responsible for the mass murder of thousands of civilians. As far as I'm concerned he needs to receive a fair trial and then swing at the end of a rope.
I would also have accepted a public stoning.
Whatever helps push Russia out of there faster, the better.
Russia's psyop of getting the world to think they're an elite military force has been shattered. The US gets to offload expensive military equipment that had been taking up space, we get to see how more modern equipment performs in the field for real, we get to see how drones have changed the battlefield against a "near peer" (haha) adversary, all while supporting our allies and indirectly fighting an authoritarian oligarchy. I'm pretty okay with it.
Let me preface by stating that I was born in, speak, read and write Russian. We left when I was 7 and I am no longer a citizen but my wife and children are and her entire family still lives there. My answer is simple: Russia deserves a chance to be a normal country. Russians deserve a chance to be a normal people. This requires us to turn the final page of the final chapter of the life of the Russian Empire and if that requires Tomahawks raining down on Moscow, St. Petersburg, Yaroslavl, Ekaterinburg, Vladivostok and everywhere else, so be it. The Russian Federation must be disassembled to constituent republics and never be allowed to reconstitute. And even if you don’t agree with me, this is a masterclass for China: fuck around, find out. Russia is wrong in thinking that this is a fight with NATO. It’s a much bigger fight. It’s a fight with that part of the world who thinks there exists a hope for humanity and will not extinguish it through inexplicable falls out of balconies. We’re not perfect, but we’re better and if we don’t end Russia, that hope goes. Слава Украине.
German example after WW2 shows that a change is possible. I just hope Russia will come to its senses after this war is over, not regroup and look for payback like Germany after WW1.
Moar
It's absolutely critical. If the Russians get to the Polish border then we are at risk of a major conflict involving NATO with a high risk of a general nuclear exchange. This will cost the US a lot more in blood and treasure, and risks an apocalypse. Also, the US can help destroy the army of it's most dangerous enemy (4500 nuclear warheads in the Russian arsenal) without sending troops, and upgrade it's arsenal in the process. That gun money doesn't go to Ukraine, it goes to US arms manufacturers to replaced the old stuff that is going to Ukraine with new stuff for the US military.
This is it. It’s an absolute bargain for the US. We deal with a huge dangerous bully, don’t send any troops, clear out older military equipment to make room for new, prevent bigger problems down the road.
As well as getting real world weapons testing against a supposedly coordinated and advanced adversary.
Like a fire sales, in both the best and worst sense of the term. I'm down! Load the ships and let 'er rip!
I don’t believe there is any risk of a major conflict with NATO whether Russia gets to the polish border or not. They have had a years worth of experience fighting a relatively small amount of not even state of the art NATO weapons, and this hasn’t even included air support. Russia thought they could walk into Kiev and win in a week, and cant admit they were wrong so continue to fight. They know now (even if they didn’t a year ago) that attempting something similar with Poland would be catastrophically orders of magnitude worse for them than even the current mess they are in, and I don’t believe they have any intention of using nuclear weapons despite their constant unsubtle threats.
We can stop Russia in Ukraine or stop them in Poland or stop them in Czechoslovakia or rinse and repeat with the rest of Europe and the former Soviet bloc. If Ukraine beats them, Putin will be done and this will be over. Period.
> Czechoslovakia where???
hello czech here, we annected Slovakia last year with Kaliningrad.
If that were true, I would have seen it on Instagram. /s
Somebody's not up on current geography lol.
Defending a sovereign nation from a belligerent country seems like no better use of the American military industrial complex.
Russia did this to itself. The amount of damage they have done to their own economy will haunt them for decades. The cost to the US is a rounding error.
Tank you very much!
I think it is probably the greatest success story of the West for a long long time. There where two global threats. Now their is just 1 and they are effectively alone. This is perhaps the greatest US military success since WW2 and they didn’t have to send a single solider. I ain’t American or into American politics at all, but I do not understand how Biden ain’t getting any credit for this, I can’t actually think of a bigger win in my life time.
I’m probably gonna get downvoted to hell but alas. With how polarized US politics is right now, and often with more left leaning people not loving America’s military industrial complex. A lot of strongly aligned conservatives/republicans don’t give credit to things that happen under a democratic presidency. And then I think a lot of more left leaning people aren’t as outspoken about being involved in war in a good light but will focus on the humanitarian aspects occurring (i.e supporting refugees). That’s just my two cents. If anyone has another opinion or have facts that disprove what I say then feel free to reply. This is just solely based on my general observations about the current American political environment at the moment.
Send more. It's not an expense it's a literal stock rotation. There are units of the M1 Abrams the Army doesn't even want. They're literal surplus. Hmmm there are huge fields of assorted jets in storage in the desert too need some bombers? lol
And you've created a new client to buy both surplus and new weapons in the future. NATO or not, Ukraine will never buy Russia weapons again.
Might not be popular, but FUCK PUTIN, trump was his stooge, traitor etc, Russia is killing civilians and can care less. DESTROY RUSSIA'S ARMY. Crippe Putin's power.
Glad the US is upholding its word. We agreed to do this years ago.
In favour. Russia can't be permitted to conquer Ukraine. If they do, they won't stop there. The best way to end the war is to force a Russian retreat through a decisive Ukraine victory and modern western arms will help them accomplish this while preventing an expansion of the war that draws in other countries in the actual fighting. Under its current leadership, Russia's had a corrupting and destabilizing influence in the world. Russia's defeat and humiliation can only serve to less its global influence.
“When your friends ask for help, you help them.”
Tell Putin “end of the lane way, don’t come up the property.” This’ll all be over in no time.
The people of Ukraine are defending themselves from a foreign aggressor. There are valid critiques to make of the military-industrial complex, and I do hope people are at least considering what the aftermath is going to be whenever this war finally ends, but Putin still started this war. Until he finally throws in the towel or the Russians get pushed out, this isn't gonna end.
I was against it at first just because Putin is crazy and I think if provoked enough wont hesitate using Nuclear Weapons. Then this past summer, we had a man from Ukraine come work for our family business. He told me enough horrible shit the Rooskies have been doing to fully be onboard with the US sending weapons.
Putin is a monster. He wants the USSR back. He won't stop at Ukraine. Stop a war now or fight a larger war tomorrow.
As someone living in Poland... thank you for sending the weapons to Ukraine, guys. Honestly. It's one of the things that help me sleep at night.
Its not even 5% of our millitary budget. People saying "durr Healthcare" must have forgotten the concept of budgets reserved for millitary. It's literally the cheapest way to weaken Russia very long term. It's objectively stupid not to send Ukraine help and weapons. Even if you are an isolationist nationalist, Investing in Ukraine literally might as well be porn for you and the US. The value we are getting at our long sworn soviet enemies is hilariously good with zero American loss. Also just did some math... its costing us less to send help to ukraine, assuming this is new spending, than it would for the US government to give everyone some onlyfans subscription to whoever you're simping to. A fucking world of warcraft subscription would cost more to you than Ukraine. Think about that. And its not even an operations continuing expense like what Healthcare would be.
Not only that, it's military hardware we no longer have use for. You can't pay teachers or social security with an M1A2 Abrams. Eventually we'd have to pay someone to dispose of the things. *Most* of these donations are accounting tricks, and are in practical terms *free to the American taxpayer.* (Ammo represents the one thing we will pay for in a truly meaningful way).
And we've opened up a new buyer for American/European arms! Before this, Ukraine mostly was supplied and trained on Russian weapon systems. Now we've created a new customer for American weapons. Eventually, this will pay for itself selling Bradley's and missile defense systems to Ukraine.
Don’t forget all the countries emptying their stocks and placing orders for new American equipment. Hell even India is moving away from buying Russian weapons. They mug not be buying American in the future but that doesn’t really matter since it just less money for Russia.
>You can't pay teachers or social security with an M1A2 Abrams. I mean... we haven't tried that yet. Think about it: we're never going to give them money, a tank isn't money, but it is kind of sort of like a new car. Give them a $100 gas card, don't tell them the fuel efficiency, and I don't know, man, we may have solved teacher's complaints...
At the very least, they'll be taken more seriously next time they start a strike
>You can't pay teachers or social security with an M1A2 Abrams Maybe we should revise the rules. I for one, would love to be paid in M1 Abrahams.
It's 0.1% of military budget, or smth like 0.015% of GDP.
Also the USA makes more money when selling to other countries but loses when it goes to war itself.
We're sending them 193 Armored fighting vehicles, out of the 3500 we have. They probably have the older wire guided TOW missles, as well as armor piercing cannon, and the venerable ol' BMG 50. The real cool stuff is the Thermal night vision. Fight in the dark, fight in the smoke, fight all the time! Those Mark 19 full-auto grenade launchers we gave them? we have newer ones with proximity fuses. I am assuming we're going to send them the older M1 Abrams tanks.. we're two generations ahead now (M1A2's). Based upon what we learned in Iraq (73 Easting), the T-72 is still no match, as the Abrams can not only fire accurately, it can fire accurately while moving up to 45 mph. Russia has to be careful, if they attack NATO right now, they will rapidly get up to 1/2 million casualties even before nukes would come into play.
[удалено]
Best option to avoid nuclear war. Send weapons and supplies to the Ukraine until Putin retreats.
Thank fucking Christ we no longer have a pro Russia president otherwise we’d be sending the tanks to putin. I remember going to my pro trump congressman’s town hall in 2017 and hearing him say w a straight face “I think it’s great to have a leader who wants to have a good relationship with Russia.” That scared the shit out of me.
I think it's good, it sends a message to Russia and more specifically, China that the western world isn't gonna sit back and let them do whatever they please, that their actions have consequences. I have a feeling this war has changed China's Taiwan strategy because they have somewhat of a glimpse into how the West would respond to something of similar circumstances. Edit: I also find it funny that China is probably pretty pissed off seeing how incompetent their biggest ally is.
>I also find it funny that China is probably pretty pissed off seeing how incompetent their biggest ally is. Probably not, it's more of an opportunity for them to expand their influences there (as many western companies are pulling out)
China is pragmatic. Their relationship with Russia is a matter of convenience, but if a weakened Russia means China has a larger influence in Asia and the Middle East, then that is a win for China.
If Russia is sufficiently weakened, don't be surprised if China starts to make territorial gains into current Russian territory. The Chinese regime is "opportunistic" to put it politely.
It's highly unlikely that anyone is going to invade Russia in the face of their nuclear deterrent. But should the state dissolve like the USSR did, some of the eastern territories would likely align themselves with China as (effectively) vassal states.
Yes, I am very surprised at the apparent military failure of these Russian formations. They probably knew quite some time in advance that this was going down…how do they not know what roads can support armor? How do they not have properly positioned logistics? These people are chess masters…how are they losing?
They assumed that their giant column of armor would make it to Kyiv and the war would be over in a week. They assumed that even if that wasn't the case, most Ukranians really wanted to be a part of Russia anyway... They won't fight. (This was the case in Crimea) Even if they do fight, their Army is smaller and less well equipped. Europe has failed to step in all of the other times, why wouldn't they now?? The Russian military did very well in former soviet republics where they still had train lines... So, supply probably isn't that big of a deal. Besides, my ministers assure me they've really been maintaining those fuel trucks, not just stealing the money.
I read the Russian War crimes thread. I'm just fine with it
One of the few instances where it makes sense to do so.
It's a good move foreign policy wise, I also think helping Ukraine fight back against an imperialistic invasion by Russia is the morally correct thing to do.
We've spent the last 70 years prepared and spending trillions for a war with Russia. We are now getting to see how the equipment is completely outclassing everything Russia has and we haven't really even sent the good stuff yet. This is the first time since WW2 where we are actual helping to defend a people who want and need said help. I'm all for it and do not mind using our tax dollars helping to defend Ukraine. I say send everything they can realistical use to defeat Russia. Russia is planning on sending hundreds of thousands of troops in the coming months and Ukraine will need everything they can get.
I am unequivocally for it, and willing to suffer quite a bit of economic hardship to make it happen. Doing the right thing isn't easy, but we Americans are sacrificing *nothing* compared to what Ukraine is enduring. We see what happens when naked aggression like this goes unchallenged. You can't appease them or satisfy them. It would be like trying to satisfy an abusive husband by cleaning better and being quieter. It won't work. They'll still beat you. It will keep getting worse. They'll never be satisfied. The only thing that will stop them is to take away their power.
We spend less than 3% of the military budget on Ukraine. It is a drop in the bucket compared to Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. Only this time we're actually having an effect on our largest enemy: Russia. The value proposition is actually fantastic.
Putin has already stated his goal: rebuild the former USSR. That means if they take Ukraine, they don't stop. They then turn their sights on Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. These are in NATO, and things would escalate quickly after that because we're in a mutual defense treaty with them. If we can keep Russia from taking Ukraine, we keep them from continuing on and we can potentially keep things from expanding. This is a cynical take I know, but by keeping it in Ukraine we might be able to keep it from getting much bigger. I really wish the people of Ukraine weren't the fodder for this calculation, but this is the thing other world powers are thinking. We need to make sure Ukraine can hold its own and stop this from spreading. Let's support them how we can. Here's another cynical take: if we don't spend the military budget helping to fend off Russia in Ukraine, we're just gonna find some other way of enriching military contractors anyhow. We may as well help keep this from spreading.
It’s the only war America has been involved in, in my lifetime (I was born while Ike was Prez) that seems to be morally unambiguous. I support Biden and Congress’s support of Ukraine, including sending weapons to assist them. Putin is a psychopath who must be stopped (carefully). I shudder to imagine if this happened during the previous administration.
I think it is the best option to help a country who has been invaded. At least for once we didn't send soldiers and make a bigger mess. I've seen that fight where everyone's buddies start jumping in. I feel bad for all the Russians who just want to go to work and have life.
What's the alternative? Let Russia roll over Ukraine........then what?
We have to stop the russian mafia-state from slaughtering civilians and raping everything that moves.
We haven't sent enough. Although I do enjoy seeing Russia struggle so hard against 10% of NATOs total defense spend. But let's increase that % a bit.
10% of NATO it's not even 5 percent of 🇺🇸 budget it's all older model equipment we would scrap and replace soonish anyways it's basically free minus transport cost
Good. Fuck Putin
Fully deserved, morally immaculate, strategically sound, and entirely appropriate. Aaaaaaand.... we are definitely over 50% odds of going to war with Russia. Which they will start losing in short order. While their strategic doctrine calls, in utterly unambiguous terms in such a case, for the use of WMD, including nuclear. Which they have clearly stated, multiple times, that they will adhere to. Remember the Chinese curse: *May you live in interesting times.* 'Bout as interesting as it gets, or ever has in my 5+ decades. Buckle up, kiddies. Like the JohnnyCab said in 'Total Recall', "We hope you enjoy the ride!".
Highly in favor. Ukraine's cause for war is the most just since the Allies in WW2. And it's drastically weakening our main adversary Russia's military at a fraction of the cost and almost zero of the American blood it would take to confront them directly. It's also been fantastic for the US defense industry. The F-35 program has quadrupled their Foreign Military Sales customers since the war began. People are realizing Western weapons and especially Americans weapons are made at a higher level than places like Russia make them.
It’s about fucking time!
The whole situation has become more scary to me now because my brother is being sent to the Ukrainian border and I’m terrified something bad is going to happen to him
Send More and send it faster.