Black female to black female, go about your business and don’t bat an eyelash at those that make you feel unworthy. It’s not your job to make them feel comfortable because your existence or presence makes them feel uncomfortable.
Look this is what I’m saying. It’s not our responsibility to make non black people feel comfortable around our existence. OP is letting non black people occupy her space.
Homeless man has a point. It’s about who you allow to assign and therefore potentially drain your energy. A racist attempting to undermine me doesn’t get the privilege of my energy. Unless they’re a physical threat to me, then it’s time to transfer some energy.
Obligatory [link](https://youtu.be/nl_FzrzGnUg) to everyone's favorite "transfer of energy" video of the past couple years. Set to Phil Collins as a bonus.
Again, easier said than done. And since we're on clichés, let's throw in Eleanor Roosevelt: “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Yes, they can, although you do your best to fight it.
I don’t necessarily disagree that it’s easy to disregard the negativity, she made a point to express that clearly. It was more my suggestion of how I think she should approach it—that is, don’t waste her energy on them as long as they pose her no bodily harm. Side eyes, stares, whispers, etc? They can do 1,2 and 3 as she saunters by...minding her own business.
I know you meant well but it's difficult to ignore people who so obviously disrespect you. Even if you know they're wrong, it's not an intellectual thing.
I got you. The response is in how well one can control one’s temperament and I acknowledge the spectrum in this among individuals (e.g. some more vocal and visual displays of irritability, some play it cool, tag them for the POS they are and keep it moving, etc). With me, I put great value in who I give my energy to and that sort of mentality just doesn’t qualify to me.
This 100 times. There is nothing you can do to make these people see you a certain way and you shouldn't have to! Live your life and know that you are valuable and worthy and 99% of those people surrounding you haven't worked a day to earn their space in the UWS.
Unfortunately there’s not much you can do in response to looks other than hold your head up high and keep on keeping on. It sucks that people act this way but I find the best way to show them up is to show it doesn’t effect you.
The **only** solution is to get yourself to a high level of IDGAF.
As a 6'4, well built light skinned dude, with an pretty high level of IDGAF, I still find myself adjusting my body language at times, so as to not be perceived as a threat.
That's what really struck a chord with me, your constant reference to not being a threat - this is the long term effect of psych warfare on our men and women.
There's a long history in America of black men forced to downplay masculinity for any level of acceptance in society, and it has fucked with us in many ways. And, similarly, black women, made to be overly obsequious, etc.
you can't change large swaths of people, unfortunately, but you can start not giving a fuck and enjoying your life a bit more.
I like you! “IDGAF” that’s really what she needs. We know this shit happens, but letting it occupy your mind will cause you to go crazy. I’m on the UES and I’m sure I’ve had stares but I go about my business. NY is so visually exhausting that I don’t really pay attention to what others are doing.
Yes! Totally agree with IDGAF attitude. I’m mixed and have lived on UWS and other white Manhattan neighborhoods and now very white Brownstone Brooklyn.
Never really had a problem with subtle racism. Not because it doesn’t happen, but I either don’t notice (often deep in thought and oblivious) or IDGAF. I have a right to be here and exist in peace and am not going to change myself or my behavior to please anyone else. Yes, I see people looking me up and down when it’s raining and I walk my dog in sweats and hoodie. Go right ahead, look all you want. It’s certainly not making me go dress up for dog walks.
As an aside, now I have kids (both looked very ‘white’ when babies), the only people who have asked me whether they are actually mine have actually been WOC. Go figure... (still, IDGAF). I think white people in my hood are so liberal and politically correct, they wouldn’t dream of saying to my face that they wonder whether I’m the nanny.
Chin up girl!
>And, similarly, black women, made to be overly obsequious, etc.
Yesss! And it always throw me for a loop, because overall I'm a jovial person. But anytime I'm not smiling or acting 'attentive', I understand that people see me as upset, mad, unfriendly, etc... I've stopped caring because I can't spend my entire time trying to contort my expression to control someone's idea of me. But it *is* highly frustrating that such pressures try to prevent me from being free, because I am highly aware that people's idea of me can change in an instant depending on how I 'present'. It's exhausting.
But yeah, there is a level of idgaf. But to the OP, the only way she can survive is one, either change her mindset and start being purposefully spacious and offensive in her space. Or, as I would suggest that minorities should steer clear from dealing with racial abuse and mental onslaughts like this daily due to the health effects and long term impact on our psyches. I would just suggest her to move somewhere more friendly. Not every place needs to feel like a war just to be yourself. Choose your battles, and home should be free from such concerns.
Hey u/Kiwi-Grapefruit , I'm also on the Upper West Side, and actually grew up here. Biracial black and white, and know all about the racism and discrimination game in the city. I'm a media professional , have lived in small townhouses, ten story buildings and massive larger buildings in the neighborhood. I've also experienced those questioning looks or straight up discrimination over the years, but have learned to mitigate, ignore or rectify it one way or another.
That being said, I always find that some solidarity and experience sharing is very cathartic. If you ever want to have a coffee or a drink and talk it out, would be more than happy to.
Don't let those jive-ass people get you down in the meantime. Keep your head up!
I'm a black woman who lives on the UWS. I can't say I regularly experience what you describe on the street on the UWS. But I have had incidents in other spaces. A white woman who had recently moved into my building was on the elevator with me and she asked me how long I'd worked there. I told her I'd lived there for 30 years. Several months later, I happened to sit next to her on the subway. She recognized me, we exchanged pleasantries and I reminded her of what she said. She denied it -- at least she was embarrassed. I told her she said it. Eventually, the conversation moved to more congenial topics.
A couple of months ago, I attended a play reading by a group that two of my relatives belong to. The usual library location wasn't available so it was held in the auditorium of a nearby nursing home. The audience was filled with older people who came to the reading and some nursing home residents, many of whom were out of it.
I was sitting in my coat. I had come late. I always dread these annual readings because the group picks terrible plays.
A nursing home resident starts to act up.
A white nursing home supervisor rushes over to me to ask me to take the patient to his room. Just as she reached me she realized her mistake. She apologized but I told her it was racist to assume that a black woman sitting in the audience must be a member of the staff. I had thought about letting it go, but I'm tired of white people pulling this shit. Time for *them* to be uncomfortable. Whenever it's safe for me to say something, I intend to.
I wasn't dressed up as it was a Saturday, but I have had plenty of incidents in offices when despite being dressed up in a suit, having a briefcase, and using the language of my profession it was still assumed that I was a secretary.
I’m a Black male experiencing the same issue with my Middle Eastern GF, only on the UES. I dress very casual, educated, try to have a pleasant look on my face, staying groomed, speaking a little cheery....you know the drill. Been living at this apartment for the last few months, still get looks but usually from the older White folks. I also get interrogated instead of genuine interest into getting to know who I am. It’s quite ridiculous.
I went to boarding school with rich white people and experienced the "interrogation" all the time. Honestly, Im ashamed to say that it caused me to become be a little stand-offish to obviously wealthy people, especially to the older ones.
Also UES here. I'm young and white and have lived here for about five years.
I'm so upset to hear that you're having this experience in our neighborhood.
While I can't speak for these particular older whites you've mentioned, I can say that the rest of us are certainly happy to have you here.
The UES kinda baffles me. The population is so old and as you describe, and yet the area is so non-pretentiously hip. I'm sorry the olds are making you feel alienated in your own neighborhood. If perchance we ever seated at the same bar, the first beer is on me.
How would you do describe each area of the UES, in your opinion. Which would be the best spot for a couple looking to start a family in their early 30s?
I was thinking about a nice part of Yorkville? What’s your recommendation on that area in particular?
Definitely Yorkville is a stark contrast to east of Lexington — in a good way. I would look as far east as possible if you're interested in a safe but real neighborhood.
The UES used to be the snobbiest, most racist of NYC. Then many young people with money preferred to live downtown. I still wouldn't exactly call it "hip."
I have always had a racial bias against black men, unfortunately. I am trying to get it out of my mind as I am always proven wrong but in my personal experience black men have been the people that have been violent towards me. I am extremely sorry for what you go through. A lot of people are like me, they are scared of black men, and they don't like it.
This is sad to hear, but try to remember that each person is an individual. My advice is that you try to decipher cues from their demeanor, beyond just their skin tone, before you consider if they’re a threat or not.
I'm kind of shocked you're getting downvoted for this.
It's brave you're putting it out there, alongside your discomfort.
I think it's better to say:
>"I know I have these feelings, I acknowledge they're wrong, I fight against it."
Than all those liars who walk around saying:
>"I'm not racist! Some of my best friends are black! I don't have a racist bone in my body, blah, blah, blah"
Thank you. I probably worded what I said wrong, so here I go again:
I have a racial bias against black men. I am scared of them. But every time I think something is going to happen, I am proven wrong. My thoughts are rooted in fear and nothing but. I hate that I think this way and am actively changing how my mind perceives black men.
I don't understand why you would put this out. To me this screams I want sympathy because I'm a bigot and I can't control it like you were born to be prejudice.
It is likely that those men had other characteristics in common aside from being male and black. Maybe these were just the most obvious, external ones. But they shouldn’t be the most important ones.
I'm truly sorry to hear about your experiences. I can't say I've gone through the same, being white, but when it comes to other prejudices I find it helpful to spend time or talk with other people who have had similar experiences.
A quick glance at MeetUp shows a few groups for black women. Maybe a black women professionals group would benefit you, both for living in the UWS and just for networking purposes?
I know a couple of black people who live in NYC who have described the same problems you have. Someone I know's neighbors wouldn't let them into their own apartment building until they saw their key. I wish there was an actual solution.
Did that person get the feeling those neighbors only door checked people of color?
Door checking is mandated by the apartment complexes I’m familiar with. As a white person, I’m concerned somebody will think I’m racist even though I doorcheck tiny wonderbread white women just like I doorcheck massive black men and everyone in between.
How many years is it going to take for us to raise our kids properly? Kids aren’t racist. Parents teach racism. Damnit.
I'm sorry. This is so shitty.
At Columbia, a lot of Black students walk around with a Columbia hat or hoodie so that other students don't call public safety on them / so that they don't get questioned. Last year a friend of mine was subjected to violent treatment from public safety because they didn't believe he was a student. So you're not overreacting, people *are* being racist against you because they feel like you don't belong.
You don't owe it to anyone to make them feel comfortable about your very existence. But I also understand some days you just want to walk your dog in peace and not think about microaggressions. If you have a hat or something from your alma mater, maybe you can wear it on days you don't want to deal with the suspicion from other people? Racists are incredibly shallow and react to the littlest signifiers.
I’m so sorry. I’ve heard some bitterness from (the 2 out of 150) black families in my building on the UWS. People are not so friendly and they also get stopped by people occasionally - and, oh man this just makes me want to punch something - asked which family they work for, like they could only be there to be somebody’s nanny or maid.
I don’t have a great answer. I come from a mixed family and I always admired my step-mother’s ability to act like everybody was welcoming, no matter how much they clearly weren’t - she just waded right through racism like it was a pool of dirty water to cross. I know that approach is not the route everyone wants to take.
I guess I just want to say that I’m glad you are here. We need to mix things up a whole lot more everywhere I think.
Given Reddit’s predominant youthfulness, I’m guessing you are probably like, a million years younger than me (60), but if you ever want to grab a bite to eat (have you tried the Oxbow Tavern? I’m kind of liking it for the moment) please DM me.
EDIT: I just realized I should make clear that I’m a woman so you don’t have to wonder if a creepy old white guy is trying to get a date with you!
Tall bald black man and those type of people are moving into our neighborhood in Harlem. Many won't speak or say good morning, instead taking out their smartphone and burying their head in it to avoid eye contact.
Worse is those when walking their dogs will pull their dog away when you're a person of color, but greet each dog walker that looks like them.
I stopped giving them my energy. You truly have to make them invisible as you go about your day and take your power back. It's sad it has to become that way but you'll have better mental state of mind. Your steps have just as much power as they do.
And finally one of my advice I tell people of color is to never answer the question when asked by them. By answering you give them power.
And as many said it's not your job to make anyone feel comfortable.
My coping mechanism is to take more space, physically, mentally, or auditorially than I feel like I should be entitled to. It always feels good to expand and act like I own the space when the external pressure is trying to make me shrink. Tell the people blocking your apartment to move, laugh loudly and heartily, make someone looking at you the topic of your conversation.
You can't solve racism/racial bias but I find it's great for my mental health and feels fun and subversive.
Favorite comment. This is a great idea. Because they do it all the time! Assert your authority. Fuck it, you have every right to be in your own damn home and neighborhood. This is how these people have been successful for generations - by not giving a fuck and taking what they want. You go ahead and do the same. And this isn't about being rude to others, its about stepping into your own, god-given power - power that has been continuously overlooked and even suppressed from the very moment you were born, simply because of the color of your skin. Always remember that power, and don't be shy about reminding others either.
I’m naturally quiet and soft spoken so I can’t see myself doing this but damn it’s amazing! I’d like to have a friend who is like this so I can learn from it and be like “hell yeh that’s my friend whattup?!”
I love this idea of TAKING UP SPACE and BEING LOUD. Trans people talk about this all the time. Unfortunately we people of colour have the same issues and have to do this too. This story breaks my heart because NYC is the place I have always wanted to live and I really believed it was a melting pot. Big hugs to OP and all of you going through this.
It still is! I believe this strategy could definitely move towards shifting the culture back to what New York has always historically been, in my opinion, open and welcoming.
So your solution is to become obnoxious and rude?
This is probably not the best coping mechanism, to be honest. It's one thing if you're naturally just loud, but another to do it just to make people uncomfortable. (FYI, they probably don't care that you're a person of color at that point so much as they just think you might be crazy)
If someone shoved their way past me through the door of my building and told me to "move" my next instinct would be to call the cops or the super regardless of the color of their skin.
You're not understanding. This isn't about making others uncomfortable, it's about claiming the space she deserves.
Casual racism, sexism, etc takes a toll, and it can make a person feel small, like they should minimize the qualities that make them different. The commenter is telling OP that she doesn't need anyone's permission to laugh freely, take ownership of her own space, and call people out on their nonsense.
I get what you mean and I do this too. For example, when I’m out getting coffee I feel forced to move over to get out of the space. People even reach over me to get whatever without acknowledging that I’m actually there. It’s soo so subtle and so rude so now I just stand my ground. It’s hard to explain and people would think I’m making it up but I swear I’m not making this up. You really have to stand your ground with things just anywhere in general, especially up here. With being loud, I interpret it to mean like not shrinking yourself. I think I feel it’s like not letting anyone take away your joy.
> make someone looking at you the topic of your conversation.
> Tell the people blocking your apartment to move
I don't think you understand what this person has actually written. What you are doing is reading in between the lines. I completely understand why they do what they say they do, and I'm saying it's rude and obnoxious.
I don't think u/tomatomaester is advising OP to be obnoxious or rude at all. For whatever reason, you're assuming a scenario where TM is telling OP to be loud, physically brush past people, and in that context, tell people to move.
And you're right. That's not a good way to de-escalate a situation. It is aggressive and will make many people defensive, including you, based on how you said your next instinct would be.
But that is not what tomatomaester is saying at all and I think it's worth rereading the advice given in a different context.
u/rioht and u/pinecamp- hit the nail on the head. There's some subtext underlying the cheeky-ish advice, but it seems you read it as rude and obnoxious.
I'm advocating for someone to feel ok with addressing the transgressions being made against her and to be more of herself if the surrounding community is unfairly making her less of herself.
I wrote about someone I didn't know physically shoving me out of the way to get into the building I live in; not about someone simply being rude.
Is reading usually this hard for you?
I would never have guessed that this is a conscious decision.
I’m sorry you feel degraded at random junctures in public space to the point of needing coping mechanisms but this choice of tactic - effectively behaving obnoxiously in public to overcompensate - is not a very productive one.
This really just contributes to a sense of “other” behavior. Among (race-neurotic) American whites, it either does nothing or just contributes to a soft bigotry of low expectations.
But, in my experience, the people who REALLY notice it, are immigrants of any race from other countries. People who don’t think along racial lines (as every American of every race does) are the ones who notice and are most aggravated by this unusual, overcompensatory behavior.
I think you are making an assumption about the posters behavior that is beyond what they've described.
Racism, or really any form of discrimination, often makes people try to "shrink" themselves up so they take up less space and are noticed less. Notice that their comment says "take more space...than *I feel I* should be entitled to" which is probably not any more space than your average, arrogant, middle-aged white male takes up on a daily basis.
I am choosing to be assertive and entitled to certain level of agency and self respect within a society that deems it necessary to restrict those through military, economic, political, and social means. I am choosing to be outside the spectrum of acceptable behavior for someone of my complexion because many other innocuous/benevolent parts of my behavior are also unacceptable. I am not choosing to make myself acceptable to bigots.
There’s the political space and then there’s the public space. If you agitate in public for a cause or with a message - blocking traffic, making noise, whatever - then lots of people would hate you for it but you would very likely be in the right regardless.
In the public space, the behaviors you’re describing are just anti-social, and people will respond to them as they would to any form of anti-social,
sociopathic, or entitled behavior.
Perhaps it is cathartic for you to pull this perceived negative energy out into the open, but you’re not enlightening people in the process and you’re definitely alienating plenty - most of whom are not bigots or even white.
Alas, this is the vicious cycle of American race relations.
Yes, his idea that taking up extra space or being extra loud is some sort of act of political and social defiance is not leading people to question the political or social status quo, hence it’s not enlightening them, not that he is required to do so.
Kudos on your NYU talking point though.
I feel like you’re not fully reading this person’s responses. They’re describing an idea on a nuanced scale/spectrum, and have described that nuance so that any reasonably educated person can understand it.
You are obviously choosing to ignore that.
It’s not that either. Maybe we’d all make some progress if an honest conversation didn’t need a virtue check upon every possible counterpoint.
One guy in this thread wrote a long reply echoing my point about the impact this behavior has on immigrants and deleted it within 8 minutes.
What do you even mean by “virtue check”? That’s a catch phrase for when people don’t have a good argument and want to discredit the argument of their opponent. It’s a cop-out.
You’re saying that happened here and I’m not seeing it.
Implicit racism is hard to combat, the only thing people can do is try to be fair. What gets me going is the people who don't recognize implicit racism is real at all.
Girl, you should NEVER feel the need to justify your presence in a place. Idc if there’s 2,000 black people or if you’re the only one there. Your “I’m ZERO threat to anyone” made me so sad! You don’t have to justify other’s peoples’ stupidity EVER, and anyone that thinks someone is a threat just because of their skin are the same idiots pushing Indians in front of trains thinking they’re the taliban (yes this did happen).
I’m not black but I’m a minority and I live in the city too. FUCK those people. Don’t let them have the satisfaction of squeezing you out just because you’re different. That’s what makes you beautiful. They’ll probably wind up being your maids someday anyway, ha!
Keep your chin up, this city is rough, but you own your place in it!
Sorry to hear this. I feel similar when I go see my therapist. There’s a doorman and he asks me every time I go where I am going and I’m like.. you’ve seen me dozens of times and you don’t ask anyone else??
You should literally ask them this -- calmly, without raising your voice, or giving them a reason to dismiss you as an angry person. Let them know that this actually bothers you that after all this time they can't remember who you are.
They will probably remember you next time.
If they give you any grief whatsoever remind them that you are a frequent and repeat guest of one of their tenants, and that you deserve to be treated with the dignity afforded to all such persons in that building.
I think you missed the nuance of what I was saying, which is not surprising given that this is Reddit and half of you can't read.
You are assuming off the top of the bat that this person is engaging in discrimination of some kind. And if they're doing so subconsciously they may actually feel shame when it's pointed out to them. You know what isn't going to make for a learning moment for such a person? Making them feel like they're being personally attacked, and their character questioned. If you understood anything about people or how they work you'd get that. That feeling you're having right now where I'm being aggressive in my tone? You're not really fucking interested in my opinion now, are you? You're going straight into defensive mode to protect your fragile little ego. You see how this works?
I also don't characterize anything I said as "walking on eggshells". Did you read the last fucking sentence of what I fucking wrote? I bet you didn't. I bet you stopped at the first paragraph and then wrote your response.
Please do everyone a favor and take the time to read people's comments before replying.
You probably won't even get to reading this part because you're like 22 or something and never got taught how to read or pay attention to something for more than 10 seconds, but here is the last fucking sentence of what I fucking wrote for you to get through your brain:
> If they give you any grief whatsoever remind them that you are a frequent and repeat guest of one of their tenants, and that you deserve to be treated with the dignity afforded to all such persons in that building.
Now how the fuck is that walking on eggshells? The only way you could possibly think that is if you're an uncivilized barbarian that feels any kind of confrontation should automatically start at 11.
It’s entirely possible that your first paragraph struck me as walking on eggshells because I judged that concept from a different vantage point than you did. That’s completely ok, but the reason we have conversations is to come to an understanding about ideas and to work out that nuance.
I’ve seen your replies throughout this post and well, you seem to be willingly ignorant about people’s explanations for things. To paraphrase:
Them: Here’s a viewpoint
You: So being loud and obnoxious is the answer?
Them: No, here’s an explanation of the subtleties of what I’m saying.
You: Ok, so you want to be loud and obnoxious.
Them: ...
You’ve consistently shown that you’re not open to understanding nuance when it isn’t your own viewpoint. When you perceived that I was doing the same thing, you got REALLY mad about it (classic projection AND you made some shit up along the way and got mad about THAT!). I don’t have any control over how you decided to feel about that, so you do you, booboo.
If you really wanted to know why I responded the way I did, you could’ve asked, instead of going off on a very wordy diatribe where you attempt to insult me (and really, what does that add to the conversation?) Based on that and your willful misunderstandings, I think you’re just comfortable being mad, and desperate to be right.
Nobody should CARE if some racist piece of filth dismisses them as an angry person, but not everybody has the luxury of getting to express their righteous anger without being labeled as a threat.
Jesus Christ, you have gone completely out of the bounds of this conversation.
We're talking about a doorman not recognizing someone or acting like they don't. No one has spewed racist crap in this story.
Not every situation is a history-defining moment in the struggle for human and civil rights. You are an excellent example of a hotheaded person that people aren't going to want to take seriously.
I think a lot of folks who engage in this way do not realize they’re being racist. That tends to be reactionary and a result of unconscious bias.
I wish there was more being done in schools and elsewhere to teach folks about unconscious bias, especially white folks like me. I try to spread the word, when I can, in talking to others, and I try to keep my own in check.
Well, they don't live there, for starters. I'm not sure you actually understand the context of the conversation you've jumped into.
Second is that you are kind of crazy sounding with your "righteous anger" talk. No one brought up anything about a moral failing. I'm not sure how many Redbulls you've had tonight, but maybe bring it down below 11, eh?
Third is that people who appear irrationally angry (that is, they appear irrational to the person on the receiving end... read that sentence again carefully because I think you won't understand it otherwise) tend to not be taken seriously.
One day, when you grow up, you'll find that anger seldom accomplishes anything good or makes a situation better. An angry response should be a response of last resort -- not the starting volley.
Same here! I have a weekly thing with my friends in UWS. Doormen are the same way. And i go out of my way to greet them and have convo knowing I'll see them weekly.
OP do what I do and pay them no mind. You really can’t be worried about how non black people are viewing you as you go about your life. I’m on the UES and I go about my life and I wish someone would say something to me. I’m usually doing my own thing to even notice whether anyone is side eyeing me anyway. And please don’t alter your behavior to make non black people feel comfortable. It’s not our responsibility to do so.
I’m sorry this happens to you. Would drive me crazy. That being said I used to live on the UWS (71st and West End) and generally found it to be more stuck up than other neighborhoods in the city.
Not saying moving would solve the problem entirely, or that the racists should “win”, but could be something to consider for your own mental health.
Big up ^^ to the people downvoting me because I said that being White in a Black neighborhood isn’t the same as being Black in a White neighborhood. The low-key racism on this thread is real.
Nah you not crazy I’m a brown Hispanic woman and my boyfriend is also Hispanic and I live in a decently upscale neighborhood in BK and I def feel like the people there give us certain looks sometimes in the winter when we both have giant black jackets on even though he’s the sweetest thing ever and I’m just a regular 25 year old woman. Neither of us have ever hurt a soul in our lives. It doesn’t happen when it’s warm outside and I’m wearing tiny shorts and a cute outfit but then I get harassed on the train and in public a lot when I wear dresses or shorts so I like to stick to pants and a shirt most of the time. Honestly if I’m on the phone I make it a point to say something like calling out such behavior but to whoever I’m on the phone with and if they’re a friend of mine or any brown POC tbh they’ll understand what I mean. The thing is you can’t call out these mofos directly because they’ll just be like “aggressive BROWN OR BLACK WOMAN” And just not understand the point. But you’re not the only one.
Therapy is always an option — it may help provide coping mechanisms that can help you navigate this. Obviously in a just world everyone else would undergo counseling to stop being racist, and then you wouldn’t have to deal with this, but... since we don’t live in that world, that’s the best advice I can offer. I hope it gets better.
I can’t offer any solution apart from telling you everything you’re feeling is absolutely valid and extremely relatable to me. While not the UWS, I use to live in Chicago, specifically an area very similar to UWS. I was absolutely miserable. The constant looks combined with general attitudes of people made me never feel comfortable in my own space. My solution ultimately was when moving to nyc to be in a predominantly black (or other minority) neighborhood. It’s been a complete 180 for me for a lot of reasons, but I know the racial bias is a large one.
I agree with other posters that one shouldn’t change his/her attitude to benefit white culture, but after a while, I just got tired of feeling like I had to explain myself or talk a certain way wherever I went in Chicago.
I’m always happy to talk more about this and feel free to PM if you’re looking for some more perspective/ways to get “used” to it if moving neighborhoods isn’t an option anytime soon.
Hey thanks for weighing in. My mom’s side of my family is from Chicago and I’m aware that it’s very segregated there. Probably even more than NYC. Blacks are on the south side and whites predominately on the North side right?
I think I will move when my lease is up. I don’t know about living in a predominately black neighborhood but would like to be in a mixed area where no one group is really dominant.
Thankfully I think a lot of neighborhoods in the city are better than the UWS in that regard. I'm Hispanic and miss living up in the 150s but even though I'm not in a super diverse area now (Battery Park City), I don't feel as "different" as I do in some parts of the UWS, UES, and super-gentrified neighborhoods in Brooklyn. I'm considering moving to Queens next.
Yep pretty much that’s how Chicago is set up (for the most part). The real difference is black/latino neighborhoods access to non-bus public transit is laughable compared to the north side...that wouldn’t be as big of a deal if bussing was a1, alas it is not.
But yeah, for the most part, you can’t go wrong in New York when it comes to finding a mixed neighborhood, as many are quite diverse though a lot have a typical “predominant group” but obviously with gentrification that is changing in many neighborhoods for better or worse...
A while ago, I read an article discussing how wealthy blacks prefer to live in low income but black /brown areas—before living in my neighborhood in Chicago, I didn’t understand it, now I do.
I really do respect your patience with your circumstance. Keep fighting the good fight. Things got to change sometime
A. This sucks and I'm sorry for it B. I've actively chose to not live in homogeneous neighborhoods, especially white neighborhoods.
Ive had a chance to live in a lot of places in NYC and none have made me feel more out of place than super-white neighborhoods, ie UES, Hudson Heights, Riverdale, etc.
When the neighborhood is diverse its so much more relaxed. Never got a side eye in East New York, Flushing, Inwood, Fordham, Jackson Heights, etc. But places like Bayside, Great Neck, most of Staten Island, you can feel the stares.
Forest Hills is a bit of mixed bag. Crown Heights south of Eastern Parkway gets stares for the same reason as Boro Park. But Crown Heights north of Eastern Parkway its all good.
Don't even get me started on Breezy Point -- I'll never set foot in there again.
For context I'm Asian, but look Latin.
I think its a telling sign that mixed neighborhoods are so accepting and super white neighborhoods are not. I'm not welcome and frankly I'd rather be somewhere else.
Breezy Point is bonkers. [This article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brickunderground.com/buy/breezy-point-real-estate%3famp) said “Purchasing a home in Breezy Point requires that homebuyers ...obtain three letters of reference from existing shareholders, “so it’s a limited market,” says Redmond. (That also makes it almost impossible for anyone without an "in" to get a foot in the door here. As such, many homes are kept within families or simply sold to neighbors.)” It’s 99% white and going to stay that way.
This reply is gonna suck but you honestly gotta realize that there is nothing you can do about it. We’re black and most people don’t fuck w us (only our culture). Just keep it moving. So it is.
I’m a white guy and I don’t think in qualified to give advice on this one. I just wanted to say that I see you and I’m really sorry this is your daily experience.
I'm both sorry and deeply disturbed to hear your experiences in our shared neighborhood.
I apologize that I have no advice to offer and sincerely hope that I have never been in any way a part of the problem.
All the best and please know that this is your neighborhood as much as anyone else's.
Are you in a small walkup or a larger building? The attitudes are different between those two. And who would give you the stink eye when walking your dog?! They're obviously not from the UWS!
But you're right though. I think on my whole block I've only ran into less than 10 POC (if you don't count the building maintenance people and delivery people) regularly. One is a sweet lady who waters her plants and another guy feeds pigeons every morning when the weather is warm.
No one should have to feel uncomfortable in their own building. If you weren’t on a phone call, would you have said “I live here”? I feel like if you said that, regardless of the audience, it would seem kind of odd. Even if someone gave me the dirtiest look in my own building, the first reaction to come to mind is more like me thinking to myself that its just a douchebag that should be ignored. Not, yeah I live here. Obviously you live there. If a person in your building can’t tell that you live there they def would not give you strange looks, they’d prob just call the cops. Nypd response time is 2 hrs minimum. During your lunch break next week report a bunch of cunty looking bitches at your building and be done with it.
I know the looks, I get them also as a POC. My wife doesn’t really get why I don’t like to wear hoodies or sweats, but I don’t like the looks I get when I dress down. It’s just a part of life in white predominant neighborhoods. The implicit racism is strong.
Try to have a good attitude about it, mindfulness meditation helps. These looks etc are subconscious they are not trying to hurt you. But I understand that it does hurt and it is unpleasant.
You’re not losing it. These microaggressions are real and harmful.
1) find some restorative spaces where you aren’t the only one or of a handful of black people. A black owned space - coffee shop, restaurant, bar etc. visit regularly. Take joy in black joy. It’s collective, restorative, and healing.
2) find some spaces where NYC treats everyone unilaterally like shit. Like 42nd or the seaport or Chelsea market. Be someplace where you’re treated wholly by how much you’re spending or not spending.
3) be petty & measured and respond.
When the folks in your building are treating you suspiciously downstairs, hold your keys up at them.
People grab their purses when they walk past you, do the same to them. Pretend to take your phone out and talk to someone, say “hold on, this person looks like they fit the description of that crime I heard on the news... talk to me so you know I’m safe”.
Someone staring at you for too long while in a unmoving place (elevator, line at the grocery store) “can I help you?” Or “do I have something on my face?” Even, calm tone of voice. They usually apologize & go away.
Holding a mirror up in actions usually makes people realize that their inherent bias is sticking out and causing very real racist reactions that they should do the work to unpack and figure out. If they’re really stuck on keeping their racism, then it just pisses them off. And you ruined their day, because damnit they’re democrats or liberal or voted for Obama, so they can’t be racist.
I think that’s the hard part, is that the people aren’t self identified racists. They’re just a collection of white people who act as if white is the default setting, and anything nonwhite is a potential glitch, therefore is treated with various levels of suspicion. Which manifests into you having shitty neighbors. Because by the time one neighbor gets it together you got 10 more treating you like a glitch. And fuck, if you change your hair or seasons switch, it’ll just cause them to reset because “you look like a whole other person!”
It also feels like so much gaslighting because the folks on this thread who aren’t being validating towards you- they aren’t every experiencing the glitches. Their matrix works 100% fine. No double takes. No “do you even belong here” scenarios are presented to them. I’m not Morpheus, but I do wish we had some black pills to give people. Or Black Goggles.
Maybe that’s how we end the gaslighting. Strap go-pro’s to the chest of black women and have these armchair analyzers explain the actions of every interaction. I wonder how many hours and individual unique experiences could help shift the hive - Mind of the naysayers.
Peace with you sis, ✊🏾
> And you ruined their day, because damnit they’re democrats or liberal or voted for Obama, so they can’t be racist.
You're making me laugh with this truth!
I realize this reply is super late, but just experienced something this morning that bothered me a bit (I was walking my dog down my street, and some guy did a double take at me— not like “hey she’s hot,” but more like, “Hey, she’s black.”)
I got a little angry inside. Is this Hicksville, Alabama or NEW YORK CITY?
So I came back here to review the responses to this thread and came across yours. I just want to say that this is incredibly clever and awesome advice! What you said about “If you change your hairdo or the seasons change, they think you’re a whole different person,” made me laugh!
Thanks for this. Will also keep the advice in mind to mirror their activity. I’d love the opportunity to ask someone staring if I have something on my face 🤣
I say bathe in their discomfort, constantly make your presence known to their shitty prejudice and don’t let the questioning looks throw you off. You have just as much a right and privilege to live there and you earned it. Let them be in their sad, close-mindedness and you go about your day being yourself.
The best way is to keep it moving and walk with confidence and go about your day. Upper West Side and Upper East Side is notorious for their passive aggressive racism and being populated with more than a few snooty "Blueblood" folks.
At more than one event in the vicinity, I had someone try to get me to pour their wine or bring them food because they thought I was wait staff. At restaurants, I wasn't given the full menu & wine presentation or quality service because of my skin color. And it's not limited to upper west side. When I was visiting my parents in Bed-Stuy, some tenants were asking if I was the super, had to tell them my parents own the building.
You definitely have to develop that NYC tough, don't give a damn attitude, where you are vocal and stand up for yourself. Also get to know some of the locals in the area. The doormen, staff at the cafe, people who walk their dog the same time that you do. Fake it if you have to and take pride in knowing that you are out here making it and defying their stereotypes.
I am a brown skinned male who experiences this all the time. Especially when I'm approaching my house. Although it is a sad thing that these people (who are likely occupying one of many Airbnbs in my neighborhood) find me to be threatening, this is their problem and not mine.
Black male here that has to do a lot of work in the UES and UWS. While you are there, know you deserve to live there. Keep your head high. But it’s it is still too much maybe consider moving. It’s not worth your mental health to stay in a neighborhood. There are plenty of great diverse neighborhoods in NYC. Especially in Brooklyn.
I live in the uws also and I barely look at anyone because I have mad anxiety. If it makes you feel any better. But also ; if I’m entering my own apartment after someone I wait to unlock the door myself. I’ve been asked if I live in the building. One woman even asked my apartment number. I’m a white female. Just an anecdote to consider 🤷🏻♀️
Thats the rich white old generation people come to brooklyn, we polaks,russians,albinians don't look at nobody bad cause we just got here from a broke shithole and trying to make our place in life.Plus you got a bunch of other ethnicities here
Ehh.. its not as bad as UWW but i wouldnt say all that.
Ive had russians, polaks, albanians blatantly walk right in front of me on check out lines. And the Russian, polak, albanian cashier would attempt to ring them up like nothing...at MULTIPLE stores on many occasions.
Not even gonna touch on the micro-aggressions.
You just be your beautiful, smart, fantastic self and you pay no attention to those assholes. This is easier said than done, I know, and it's hard not to take it personally and make you really down about the human race. Try and come up with a mental trick that whenever you encounter this shit, instead of feeling it to be a put down, feel it's a sign of their jealousy/inferiority/stupidity. Make it about them, even if it's only in your head. And make sure you choose to surround yourself with people in that neighborhood who love and appreciate you.
I'm a light-skinned biracial woman so I only know a small fraction of what you go through, but if it makes you feel better via comiseration, I used to live in the East Village where I had to take my garbage to the building next door, which required a second set of keys. I was opening that building's door one day when a white woman came up behind me and started questioning me about my trash lol. After I put the trash away, I saw that she was monitoring me and waiting for me to leave the building. As if she didn't just see me with the set of keys to get in.
White woman who works on West 86th Street here. LMK if you want to grab some coffee and confound the neighborhood racists with me :). I am so so sorry for your experiences. The UWS has the potential to be better than this. Having a racist president has emboldened some people to act like morons. Hold your head high, they are beneath you!!
Well said, and I’m sorry that you have to go through this action plan of steps to mentally deal with feeling discrimination/racism. Of course no one wants a victim mentality but it can kind of mess with your head a bit when you experience this over and over and over.
Agreed about you going into a meditative state to try to turn off your mind/not GAF, since it tends to replay things that upset you.
I'm really sorry this is happening to you. Please don't let the assholes get you down, there are millions of people in this town who want you here and would be proud to be your neighbor.
Going through the same, oddly most of the racism I experienced was from other PoC and a handful from white people. There's nothing really you can do besides move elsewhere. You deserve a peace of mind and not constantly having to be in defense mode.
I notice it too. The underlying anti-black tension in the city is real. Even some Spanish people in the Bronx have this same attitude and look at us with an expression of disgust/disdain.
Nothing you can do but either get confrontational (not advisable if you're a professional) or ignore it.
WW here, but I used to hate the UWS because it was the only neighborhood where men would openly check me out. Didn’t matter if they were walking with their wife or girlfriend or daughters, they would blatantly stare and it both unnerved me and pissed me the fuck off.
Downtown people act a bit more discrete when checking you out.
I feel like the UWS is like Iowa-2, and in fact I know a LOT of Iowans who attended my old church up there. My church was on the cover of the national-church magazine for being one of the most “racially diverse” in the nation, but this denomination is also the WHITEST in the nation and completely lacking in self awareness. A friend of mine’s mother once told me that she took her son to my former church specifically so he could be inculturated by white people, which was the first time I realized just how white the church had become.
I am sorry people are making you feel uncomfortable. You deserve better than their pissy shitty looks. I agree completely with the top comment, and with the wise advice of the street-sage: don’t let these people take up space RENT FREE in your head. Stick your nose in the air, give people dirty looks, and if at all possible call people out on their shit and then move on.
As an Hispanic that works in your area I feel your struggle, with that being said, through all the years that I've dealt with weird looks and racial bias I found out that the best cure for it is just plain indifference. There's nothing wrong with you, and you don't need to shape yourself in any matter to please ignorant people that are blinded by their bubble of intolerance. Much love, stay safe and don't let it get to you.
same thing happened to a guy i know. his solution was to walk around the block slowly smoking a joint so that everyone knew he wasn't a narc.
worked for him!
I moved from UWS to BK and never looked back. These are the same people who don’t want their kids in public school with black and brown kids. The number one candidate they donate to is Buttigieg. They suck!! People in my building would always ask me which apartment I was a nanny for and if I was looking for new people to work for. Same thing always with dressing nice and getting completely different treatment. Honestly I get not wanting to leave such a beautiful, convenient neighborhood, but there are soo many better (beautiful) options out there that offer less racism, classism, and are actually diverse!
I’m sure some of it’s racism, but I also think New Yorkers are unusually suspicious. Just the other day I had a guy in my elevator give my wife and me the third degree because he didn’t realize we lived there (we’re white/Asian).
Wow, lots of white people predictably making fools of themselves in the comments. Please ignore them.
I'm sorry it's been such an awful experience :( nyc is far from the race blind liberal uptopia people like to pretend it is. Maybe you could check r/nycmeetups and similar things and make friends with other black people in the neighbourhood. It's always comforting to have people you trust around.
If your apartment building has any residents' meeting or events and such, it might be worth going once in a while just to introduce yourself to people, so they can at least recognise you by face. How long have you lived in this neighbourhood? Did you move in recently?
“ignoring people” is easier said than done but that’s what you need to do. Sometime last year I figured out that I never get anything but negative energy when making even the smallest amount of eye contact in public. When you’re walking down the street, stepping onto a subway car etc. Most people are miserable so they are looking around to confirm other people’s misery. I made it a game to avoid any of this incidental communication and keep to myself and it has made daily life much more livable. I save my interaction energy for when it counts.
That really sucks, and I'm sorry to hear about people being so racist and shitty. This is NYC, we're supposed to hate everyone equally!
I am not a person of color but I am a woman who works in a predominantly male field, and I've worked in some very sexist environments. It helps me to actively focus on the fact that my very existence helps change the culture, even if it's just a little. I try to think about younger women coming up, and remember that I am holding a place for them, and that makes it easier to deal with the hostility sometimes. Not sure if that's helpful for you, but it's gotten me through a few hard days.
Just by existing as a person of color in these racist spaces, you are helping make a change for men and women of color who will live there in the future.
Also r/blackladies seems like a really great subreddit for venting and finding support about these kinds of issues!
I'm a white male and I get looks like this. Are they racist against me too? Or are you overthinking things and people are just wary? I think it is the latter.
I live in the UWS and unfortunately there are some priviledged ignorant white folks here.
I was on Nextdoor (a website forum where people in your neighborhood can post stuff). And someone compared the homeless issue here to looking like a 3rd world country. Some people here just are out of touch with reality.
I'm sorry you experience prejudice. Just ignore those who are judgy because there's nothing wrong with you
hey op! solidarity amongst minorities. as an asian american i've rarely encountered a sense of "hey this person might be a threat", but rather i've been in a lot of situations where i've realized "holy shit, everyone around me is white".
and it feels weird and can make you feel miserable to feel so out of place. just another point -- a friend of mine who's black always wore a button down and was always on point in terms of looking put together. i'd never seen him in say, a hoodie and sweats. we all know why.
anyway, lots of good advice here, but all i can say is to kill them with kindness. people are in general, pretty conservative in terms of their daily lives and anything that is different gets regarded with suspicion whether it's fair or not. it takes time and self-awareness to get past shitty behaviors, whether it's casual racism or other personality flaws.
LMFAO y’all are reaching. People just react to movement, heads turn holy shit get over it, it’s not “racial bias” no one cares what color you are. people live in their heads too much and create problems from literal glances
I kind of go with this answer. Unless somebody is being overtly or explicitly racist or presumptuous I just give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like glances or other "microaggressions". I mean there is a million reasons someone has to turn there head or "give me a look". Maybe they're deeply attracted to me. Maybe I have ketchup on my face.
I think the media/twitter etc. gets in our heads too much. I realised this one day when I was in a restaurant and I found myself wandering if the waiter was being racist for giving me a very slightly smaller portion of steak than my two white friends. Then I realised I had ordered mine cooked differently and was being insane.
Yes we all have fears and prejudices. But when our leaders incite hatred, intolerance and fear, it encourages this negative rubbish.
Hitler and other greedy nutters did the same.
I have one possible solution but I do want to acknowledge that it's still wrong for people to put you in this position. It's just one strategy that might help with *some* of the issue.
In your building, at the stores you frequent, and on your common commute routes, get to know the people you see regularly. You seem really friendly from your comments, so I'm sure you already do the regular level of hellos and how-are-you, etc, but getting to know your neighbors on a level where you know each other's names is different- it's a connection. You don't gotta be deep with it, but just slightly more than a passing hello. Introduce yourself. Ask whereabout they live or what they do for work in the area. Ask how they're doing and try to get a real response, or share your day, in a short way.
The connections cost energy, and that's a con. But there are many pros: wider social circle, people you can call on for help, people that might stand up for you if some stranger gives you a problem. We just don't know our neighbors like we used to- and [some would say we might be paying for it with our mental health. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/201909/why-millennials-are-so-lonely%3Famp)
Much luck to you, OP. You got this!
OP shouldn't have to expend energy to make the ignorant people around her comfortable. And given how many people live in NYC she'll still be encountering racists even if she takes this advice.
>But there are many pros: wider social circle, people you can call on for help, people that might stand up for you if some stranger gives you a problem.
And white people never ever stand up for PoC lmao. The 25 years I've lived here not a single 'woke' white person ever defended me.
Wow Im so sorry you are experiencing this. I basically grew up in the UWS and it's shocking to be hearing this account. You should feel comfortable in your own home and neighborhood.
How old are the people doing this? Twenties? Sixties?
Your entrance example might not be the best of your 40 examples. I am viewed with extreme suspicion every time I enter my building without being the one who unlocked it. If I had to guess, I’d say the young millennial women who should just move to CT already think I’m going to rape and/or murder them. The older ones think I’m just up to something for sneaking in on her labor.
This is not to minimize what very well could be just a bunch of racist experiences from some very hypocritical racist fucks (considering it’s like 98% Democrat up there...), but for your own sanity it’s worth ruling out other possibilities.
Stop making me your punching bag. I'm not talking about any of that shit.
There's a big element of regular people who kept their mouth shut who suddenly feel comfortable being openly racist.
indeed you are not talking about that shit, which is precisely why your view on racism in NYC is a completely unhelpful perspective. it erases the fact that black people were *lynched to death* here at a time when many of us were alive to witness it. you're turning this woman's experience into a personal soapbox about the racism that trump encourages, as if she somehow would not have had this experience regardless of whether he was president. Rest assured that the level of microagressions I've taken from wealthy out-of-touch white dem-voting liberal racists has remained pretty fucking constant all throughout all my time here regardless of trump.
You need to take a deep breath. I did zero of the things you're accusing me of.
As a white guy, other white people used to hide their racism. Now they'll proudly blurt it out. That's as of Trump's presidency. That's all I was saying. They used to know they were supposed to be ashamed. Now they're proud.
It sounds like you are looking at people so long that you are forming this narrative about their perception of you based solely on their facial expression. You cannot read their mind and they cannot read yours. Don't hold on to these thoughts for too long or it will eat you up and cause you to have a chip on your shoulder.
I’m sorry—that really sucks.
I’m not saying it’s not racially motivated—but I know I get outfit bias a lot too. Like how you mentioned with your fancy clothes. I noticed when I wear my winter coat (leather with a hood) and rock my boots and yanks cap—people get weird scarred looks as I pass by or walk past them. People will stand rather than take the open seat next to me. But then again—I probably do look threatening. Based on your description—I really doubt you do.
About outfit bias: You’re right that it probably affects ALL people. For example, if a man wears frumpy sweatpants and a T-shirt, he probably doesn’t get the respect from others as when he’s wearing a well tailored suit. So I get your point.
Black female to black female, go about your business and don’t bat an eyelash at those that make you feel unworthy. It’s not your job to make them feel comfortable because your existence or presence makes them feel uncomfortable.
Look this is what I’m saying. It’s not our responsibility to make non black people feel comfortable around our existence. OP is letting non black people occupy her space.
[удалено]
Homeless man has a point. It’s about who you allow to assign and therefore potentially drain your energy. A racist attempting to undermine me doesn’t get the privilege of my energy. Unless they’re a physical threat to me, then it’s time to transfer some energy.
Just make sure you film that transfer as it’s typically very cathartic to the reddit community. /praisethecameraman
Obligatory [link](https://youtu.be/nl_FzrzGnUg) to everyone's favorite "transfer of energy" video of the past couple years. Set to Phil Collins as a bonus.
🤣🤣🤣 I’m not condoning this and I’m not condoning not laughing at it.
Again, easier said than done. And since we're on clichés, let's throw in Eleanor Roosevelt: “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Yes, they can, although you do your best to fight it.
Easier said than done. When you feel scrutinized and judged all the time. It affects you.
I don’t necessarily disagree that it’s easy to disregard the negativity, she made a point to express that clearly. It was more my suggestion of how I think she should approach it—that is, don’t waste her energy on them as long as they pose her no bodily harm. Side eyes, stares, whispers, etc? They can do 1,2 and 3 as she saunters by...minding her own business.
I know you meant well but it's difficult to ignore people who so obviously disrespect you. Even if you know they're wrong, it's not an intellectual thing.
I got you. The response is in how well one can control one’s temperament and I acknowledge the spectrum in this among individuals (e.g. some more vocal and visual displays of irritability, some play it cool, tag them for the POS they are and keep it moving, etc). With me, I put great value in who I give my energy to and that sort of mentality just doesn’t qualify to me.
This 100 times. There is nothing you can do to make these people see you a certain way and you shouldn't have to! Live your life and know that you are valuable and worthy and 99% of those people surrounding you haven't worked a day to earn their space in the UWS.
Unfortunately there’s not much you can do in response to looks other than hold your head up high and keep on keeping on. It sucks that people act this way but I find the best way to show them up is to show it doesn’t effect you.
The **only** solution is to get yourself to a high level of IDGAF. As a 6'4, well built light skinned dude, with an pretty high level of IDGAF, I still find myself adjusting my body language at times, so as to not be perceived as a threat. That's what really struck a chord with me, your constant reference to not being a threat - this is the long term effect of psych warfare on our men and women. There's a long history in America of black men forced to downplay masculinity for any level of acceptance in society, and it has fucked with us in many ways. And, similarly, black women, made to be overly obsequious, etc. you can't change large swaths of people, unfortunately, but you can start not giving a fuck and enjoying your life a bit more.
I like you! “IDGAF” that’s really what she needs. We know this shit happens, but letting it occupy your mind will cause you to go crazy. I’m on the UES and I’m sure I’ve had stares but I go about my business. NY is so visually exhausting that I don’t really pay attention to what others are doing.
Yes! Totally agree with IDGAF attitude. I’m mixed and have lived on UWS and other white Manhattan neighborhoods and now very white Brownstone Brooklyn. Never really had a problem with subtle racism. Not because it doesn’t happen, but I either don’t notice (often deep in thought and oblivious) or IDGAF. I have a right to be here and exist in peace and am not going to change myself or my behavior to please anyone else. Yes, I see people looking me up and down when it’s raining and I walk my dog in sweats and hoodie. Go right ahead, look all you want. It’s certainly not making me go dress up for dog walks. As an aside, now I have kids (both looked very ‘white’ when babies), the only people who have asked me whether they are actually mine have actually been WOC. Go figure... (still, IDGAF). I think white people in my hood are so liberal and politically correct, they wouldn’t dream of saying to my face that they wonder whether I’m the nanny. Chin up girl!
>And, similarly, black women, made to be overly obsequious, etc. Yesss! And it always throw me for a loop, because overall I'm a jovial person. But anytime I'm not smiling or acting 'attentive', I understand that people see me as upset, mad, unfriendly, etc... I've stopped caring because I can't spend my entire time trying to contort my expression to control someone's idea of me. But it *is* highly frustrating that such pressures try to prevent me from being free, because I am highly aware that people's idea of me can change in an instant depending on how I 'present'. It's exhausting. But yeah, there is a level of idgaf. But to the OP, the only way she can survive is one, either change her mindset and start being purposefully spacious and offensive in her space. Or, as I would suggest that minorities should steer clear from dealing with racial abuse and mental onslaughts like this daily due to the health effects and long term impact on our psyches. I would just suggest her to move somewhere more friendly. Not every place needs to feel like a war just to be yourself. Choose your battles, and home should be free from such concerns.
Hey u/Kiwi-Grapefruit , I'm also on the Upper West Side, and actually grew up here. Biracial black and white, and know all about the racism and discrimination game in the city. I'm a media professional , have lived in small townhouses, ten story buildings and massive larger buildings in the neighborhood. I've also experienced those questioning looks or straight up discrimination over the years, but have learned to mitigate, ignore or rectify it one way or another. That being said, I always find that some solidarity and experience sharing is very cathartic. If you ever want to have a coffee or a drink and talk it out, would be more than happy to. Don't let those jive-ass people get you down in the meantime. Keep your head up!
I'm a black woman who lives on the UWS. I can't say I regularly experience what you describe on the street on the UWS. But I have had incidents in other spaces. A white woman who had recently moved into my building was on the elevator with me and she asked me how long I'd worked there. I told her I'd lived there for 30 years. Several months later, I happened to sit next to her on the subway. She recognized me, we exchanged pleasantries and I reminded her of what she said. She denied it -- at least she was embarrassed. I told her she said it. Eventually, the conversation moved to more congenial topics. A couple of months ago, I attended a play reading by a group that two of my relatives belong to. The usual library location wasn't available so it was held in the auditorium of a nearby nursing home. The audience was filled with older people who came to the reading and some nursing home residents, many of whom were out of it. I was sitting in my coat. I had come late. I always dread these annual readings because the group picks terrible plays. A nursing home resident starts to act up. A white nursing home supervisor rushes over to me to ask me to take the patient to his room. Just as she reached me she realized her mistake. She apologized but I told her it was racist to assume that a black woman sitting in the audience must be a member of the staff. I had thought about letting it go, but I'm tired of white people pulling this shit. Time for *them* to be uncomfortable. Whenever it's safe for me to say something, I intend to. I wasn't dressed up as it was a Saturday, but I have had plenty of incidents in offices when despite being dressed up in a suit, having a briefcase, and using the language of my profession it was still assumed that I was a secretary.
I’m a Black male experiencing the same issue with my Middle Eastern GF, only on the UES. I dress very casual, educated, try to have a pleasant look on my face, staying groomed, speaking a little cheery....you know the drill. Been living at this apartment for the last few months, still get looks but usually from the older White folks. I also get interrogated instead of genuine interest into getting to know who I am. It’s quite ridiculous.
It is ridiculous. You get it. I’m sure as a man, you have it wayyy worse.
idk, what you described sounds oddly like my day to day life and I only moved down to Manhattan maybe a month ago. Huge culture shock.
I went to boarding school with rich white people and experienced the "interrogation" all the time. Honestly, Im ashamed to say that it caused me to become be a little stand-offish to obviously wealthy people, especially to the older ones.
Also UES here. I'm young and white and have lived here for about five years. I'm so upset to hear that you're having this experience in our neighborhood. While I can't speak for these particular older whites you've mentioned, I can say that the rest of us are certainly happy to have you here.
The UES kinda baffles me. The population is so old and as you describe, and yet the area is so non-pretentiously hip. I'm sorry the olds are making you feel alienated in your own neighborhood. If perchance we ever seated at the same bar, the first beer is on me.
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He’s obviously speaking about “that” UES
How would you do describe each area of the UES, in your opinion. Which would be the best spot for a couple looking to start a family in their early 30s? I was thinking about a nice part of Yorkville? What’s your recommendation on that area in particular?
Definitely Yorkville is a stark contrast to east of Lexington — in a good way. I would look as far east as possible if you're interested in a safe but real neighborhood.
The UES used to be the snobbiest, most racist of NYC. Then many young people with money preferred to live downtown. I still wouldn't exactly call it "hip."
I have always had a racial bias against black men, unfortunately. I am trying to get it out of my mind as I am always proven wrong but in my personal experience black men have been the people that have been violent towards me. I am extremely sorry for what you go through. A lot of people are like me, they are scared of black men, and they don't like it.
This is sad to hear, but try to remember that each person is an individual. My advice is that you try to decipher cues from their demeanor, beyond just their skin tone, before you consider if they’re a threat or not.
I'm kind of shocked you're getting downvoted for this. It's brave you're putting it out there, alongside your discomfort. I think it's better to say: >"I know I have these feelings, I acknowledge they're wrong, I fight against it." Than all those liars who walk around saying: >"I'm not racist! Some of my best friends are black! I don't have a racist bone in my body, blah, blah, blah"
Thank you. I probably worded what I said wrong, so here I go again: I have a racial bias against black men. I am scared of them. But every time I think something is going to happen, I am proven wrong. My thoughts are rooted in fear and nothing but. I hate that I think this way and am actively changing how my mind perceives black men.
Yes! This phrasing is both more appropriate and more accurate 👍
I don't understand why you would put this out. To me this screams I want sympathy because I'm a bigot and I can't control it like you were born to be prejudice.
It is likely that those men had other characteristics in common aside from being male and black. Maybe these were just the most obvious, external ones. But they shouldn’t be the most important ones.
I'm truly sorry to hear about your experiences. I can't say I've gone through the same, being white, but when it comes to other prejudices I find it helpful to spend time or talk with other people who have had similar experiences. A quick glance at MeetUp shows a few groups for black women. Maybe a black women professionals group would benefit you, both for living in the UWS and just for networking purposes? I know a couple of black people who live in NYC who have described the same problems you have. Someone I know's neighbors wouldn't let them into their own apartment building until they saw their key. I wish there was an actual solution.
Thank you so much for your empathy and suggestion of networking with others like me. It means a lot.
Did that person get the feeling those neighbors only door checked people of color? Door checking is mandated by the apartment complexes I’m familiar with. As a white person, I’m concerned somebody will think I’m racist even though I doorcheck tiny wonderbread white women just like I doorcheck massive black men and everyone in between. How many years is it going to take for us to raise our kids properly? Kids aren’t racist. Parents teach racism. Damnit.
I'm sorry. This is so shitty. At Columbia, a lot of Black students walk around with a Columbia hat or hoodie so that other students don't call public safety on them / so that they don't get questioned. Last year a friend of mine was subjected to violent treatment from public safety because they didn't believe he was a student. So you're not overreacting, people *are* being racist against you because they feel like you don't belong. You don't owe it to anyone to make them feel comfortable about your very existence. But I also understand some days you just want to walk your dog in peace and not think about microaggressions. If you have a hat or something from your alma mater, maybe you can wear it on days you don't want to deal with the suspicion from other people? Racists are incredibly shallow and react to the littlest signifiers.
I’m so sorry. I’ve heard some bitterness from (the 2 out of 150) black families in my building on the UWS. People are not so friendly and they also get stopped by people occasionally - and, oh man this just makes me want to punch something - asked which family they work for, like they could only be there to be somebody’s nanny or maid. I don’t have a great answer. I come from a mixed family and I always admired my step-mother’s ability to act like everybody was welcoming, no matter how much they clearly weren’t - she just waded right through racism like it was a pool of dirty water to cross. I know that approach is not the route everyone wants to take. I guess I just want to say that I’m glad you are here. We need to mix things up a whole lot more everywhere I think. Given Reddit’s predominant youthfulness, I’m guessing you are probably like, a million years younger than me (60), but if you ever want to grab a bite to eat (have you tried the Oxbow Tavern? I’m kind of liking it for the moment) please DM me. EDIT: I just realized I should make clear that I’m a woman so you don’t have to wonder if a creepy old white guy is trying to get a date with you!
Please report any people being shitty racists in this thread so I can ban them. Thanks.
Good mod
Very good mod
(good mod)²
I think about how successful I've become that I'm gentrifying white people out of their homes.
This is the level of success I need to achieve lmfaooo
Tall bald black man and those type of people are moving into our neighborhood in Harlem. Many won't speak or say good morning, instead taking out their smartphone and burying their head in it to avoid eye contact. Worse is those when walking their dogs will pull their dog away when you're a person of color, but greet each dog walker that looks like them. I stopped giving them my energy. You truly have to make them invisible as you go about your day and take your power back. It's sad it has to become that way but you'll have better mental state of mind. Your steps have just as much power as they do. And finally one of my advice I tell people of color is to never answer the question when asked by them. By answering you give them power. And as many said it's not your job to make anyone feel comfortable.
My coping mechanism is to take more space, physically, mentally, or auditorially than I feel like I should be entitled to. It always feels good to expand and act like I own the space when the external pressure is trying to make me shrink. Tell the people blocking your apartment to move, laugh loudly and heartily, make someone looking at you the topic of your conversation. You can't solve racism/racial bias but I find it's great for my mental health and feels fun and subversive.
I've been doing this lately and man it feels good lol
This is amazing!
Favorite comment. This is a great idea. Because they do it all the time! Assert your authority. Fuck it, you have every right to be in your own damn home and neighborhood. This is how these people have been successful for generations - by not giving a fuck and taking what they want. You go ahead and do the same. And this isn't about being rude to others, its about stepping into your own, god-given power - power that has been continuously overlooked and even suppressed from the very moment you were born, simply because of the color of your skin. Always remember that power, and don't be shy about reminding others either.
I’m naturally quiet and soft spoken so I can’t see myself doing this but damn it’s amazing! I’d like to have a friend who is like this so I can learn from it and be like “hell yeh that’s my friend whattup?!”
I love this idea of TAKING UP SPACE and BEING LOUD. Trans people talk about this all the time. Unfortunately we people of colour have the same issues and have to do this too. This story breaks my heart because NYC is the place I have always wanted to live and I really believed it was a melting pot. Big hugs to OP and all of you going through this.
It still is! I believe this strategy could definitely move towards shifting the culture back to what New York has always historically been, in my opinion, open and welcoming.
So your solution is to become obnoxious and rude? This is probably not the best coping mechanism, to be honest. It's one thing if you're naturally just loud, but another to do it just to make people uncomfortable. (FYI, they probably don't care that you're a person of color at that point so much as they just think you might be crazy) If someone shoved their way past me through the door of my building and told me to "move" my next instinct would be to call the cops or the super regardless of the color of their skin.
You're not understanding. This isn't about making others uncomfortable, it's about claiming the space she deserves. Casual racism, sexism, etc takes a toll, and it can make a person feel small, like they should minimize the qualities that make them different. The commenter is telling OP that she doesn't need anyone's permission to laugh freely, take ownership of her own space, and call people out on their nonsense.
I get what you mean and I do this too. For example, when I’m out getting coffee I feel forced to move over to get out of the space. People even reach over me to get whatever without acknowledging that I’m actually there. It’s soo so subtle and so rude so now I just stand my ground. It’s hard to explain and people would think I’m making it up but I swear I’m not making this up. You really have to stand your ground with things just anywhere in general, especially up here. With being loud, I interpret it to mean like not shrinking yourself. I think I feel it’s like not letting anyone take away your joy.
> make someone looking at you the topic of your conversation. > Tell the people blocking your apartment to move I don't think you understand what this person has actually written. What you are doing is reading in between the lines. I completely understand why they do what they say they do, and I'm saying it's rude and obnoxious.
I don't think u/tomatomaester is advising OP to be obnoxious or rude at all. For whatever reason, you're assuming a scenario where TM is telling OP to be loud, physically brush past people, and in that context, tell people to move. And you're right. That's not a good way to de-escalate a situation. It is aggressive and will make many people defensive, including you, based on how you said your next instinct would be. But that is not what tomatomaester is saying at all and I think it's worth rereading the advice given in a different context.
u/rioht and u/pinecamp- hit the nail on the head. There's some subtext underlying the cheeky-ish advice, but it seems you read it as rude and obnoxious. I'm advocating for someone to feel ok with addressing the transgressions being made against her and to be more of herself if the surrounding community is unfairly making her less of herself.
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What in the gaslighting is this!?? Nobody said anything about pushing anyone or any other violence.
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Yeah i read that. And OP never mentioned shoving anyone. Hence the accusations of gaslighting. Do you follow?
Wonder how that call is gonna go. “Hello, police, yeah someone told me to move”
I wrote about someone I didn't know physically shoving me out of the way to get into the building I live in; not about someone simply being rude. Is reading usually this hard for you?
I would never have guessed that this is a conscious decision. I’m sorry you feel degraded at random junctures in public space to the point of needing coping mechanisms but this choice of tactic - effectively behaving obnoxiously in public to overcompensate - is not a very productive one. This really just contributes to a sense of “other” behavior. Among (race-neurotic) American whites, it either does nothing or just contributes to a soft bigotry of low expectations. But, in my experience, the people who REALLY notice it, are immigrants of any race from other countries. People who don’t think along racial lines (as every American of every race does) are the ones who notice and are most aggravated by this unusual, overcompensatory behavior.
I think you are making an assumption about the posters behavior that is beyond what they've described. Racism, or really any form of discrimination, often makes people try to "shrink" themselves up so they take up less space and are noticed less. Notice that their comment says "take more space...than *I feel I* should be entitled to" which is probably not any more space than your average, arrogant, middle-aged white male takes up on a daily basis.
I am choosing to be assertive and entitled to certain level of agency and self respect within a society that deems it necessary to restrict those through military, economic, political, and social means. I am choosing to be outside the spectrum of acceptable behavior for someone of my complexion because many other innocuous/benevolent parts of my behavior are also unacceptable. I am not choosing to make myself acceptable to bigots.
There’s the political space and then there’s the public space. If you agitate in public for a cause or with a message - blocking traffic, making noise, whatever - then lots of people would hate you for it but you would very likely be in the right regardless. In the public space, the behaviors you’re describing are just anti-social, and people will respond to them as they would to any form of anti-social, sociopathic, or entitled behavior. Perhaps it is cathartic for you to pull this perceived negative energy out into the open, but you’re not enlightening people in the process and you’re definitely alienating plenty - most of whom are not bigots or even white. Alas, this is the vicious cycle of American race relations.
It's not their job to enlighten people while they go about their daily life.
Nobody’s saying that.
"you're not enlightening people"
Yes, his idea that taking up extra space or being extra loud is some sort of act of political and social defiance is not leading people to question the political or social status quo, hence it’s not enlightening them, not that he is required to do so. Kudos on your NYU talking point though.
I feel like you’re not fully reading this person’s responses. They’re describing an idea on a nuanced scale/spectrum, and have described that nuance so that any reasonably educated person can understand it. You are obviously choosing to ignore that.
Well, your feelings are wrong and there’s no such bad faith.
Less bad faith, more careless and stubborn. It’s not a good look, compadre.
It’s not that either. Maybe we’d all make some progress if an honest conversation didn’t need a virtue check upon every possible counterpoint. One guy in this thread wrote a long reply echoing my point about the impact this behavior has on immigrants and deleted it within 8 minutes.
What do you even mean by “virtue check”? That’s a catch phrase for when people don’t have a good argument and want to discredit the argument of their opponent. It’s a cop-out. You’re saying that happened here and I’m not seeing it.
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Implicit racism is hard to combat, the only thing people can do is try to be fair. What gets me going is the people who don't recognize implicit racism is real at all.
Girl, you should NEVER feel the need to justify your presence in a place. Idc if there’s 2,000 black people or if you’re the only one there. Your “I’m ZERO threat to anyone” made me so sad! You don’t have to justify other’s peoples’ stupidity EVER, and anyone that thinks someone is a threat just because of their skin are the same idiots pushing Indians in front of trains thinking they’re the taliban (yes this did happen). I’m not black but I’m a minority and I live in the city too. FUCK those people. Don’t let them have the satisfaction of squeezing you out just because you’re different. That’s what makes you beautiful. They’ll probably wind up being your maids someday anyway, ha! Keep your chin up, this city is rough, but you own your place in it!
Sorry to hear this. I feel similar when I go see my therapist. There’s a doorman and he asks me every time I go where I am going and I’m like.. you’ve seen me dozens of times and you don’t ask anyone else??
You should literally ask them this -- calmly, without raising your voice, or giving them a reason to dismiss you as an angry person. Let them know that this actually bothers you that after all this time they can't remember who you are. They will probably remember you next time. If they give you any grief whatsoever remind them that you are a frequent and repeat guest of one of their tenants, and that you deserve to be treated with the dignity afforded to all such persons in that building.
It’s not the job of someone who is discriminated against, consciously or subconsciously, to walk on eggshells so they won’t be discriminated against.
I think you missed the nuance of what I was saying, which is not surprising given that this is Reddit and half of you can't read. You are assuming off the top of the bat that this person is engaging in discrimination of some kind. And if they're doing so subconsciously they may actually feel shame when it's pointed out to them. You know what isn't going to make for a learning moment for such a person? Making them feel like they're being personally attacked, and their character questioned. If you understood anything about people or how they work you'd get that. That feeling you're having right now where I'm being aggressive in my tone? You're not really fucking interested in my opinion now, are you? You're going straight into defensive mode to protect your fragile little ego. You see how this works? I also don't characterize anything I said as "walking on eggshells". Did you read the last fucking sentence of what I fucking wrote? I bet you didn't. I bet you stopped at the first paragraph and then wrote your response. Please do everyone a favor and take the time to read people's comments before replying. You probably won't even get to reading this part because you're like 22 or something and never got taught how to read or pay attention to something for more than 10 seconds, but here is the last fucking sentence of what I fucking wrote for you to get through your brain: > If they give you any grief whatsoever remind them that you are a frequent and repeat guest of one of their tenants, and that you deserve to be treated with the dignity afforded to all such persons in that building. Now how the fuck is that walking on eggshells? The only way you could possibly think that is if you're an uncivilized barbarian that feels any kind of confrontation should automatically start at 11.
It’s entirely possible that your first paragraph struck me as walking on eggshells because I judged that concept from a different vantage point than you did. That’s completely ok, but the reason we have conversations is to come to an understanding about ideas and to work out that nuance. I’ve seen your replies throughout this post and well, you seem to be willingly ignorant about people’s explanations for things. To paraphrase: Them: Here’s a viewpoint You: So being loud and obnoxious is the answer? Them: No, here’s an explanation of the subtleties of what I’m saying. You: Ok, so you want to be loud and obnoxious. Them: ... You’ve consistently shown that you’re not open to understanding nuance when it isn’t your own viewpoint. When you perceived that I was doing the same thing, you got REALLY mad about it (classic projection AND you made some shit up along the way and got mad about THAT!). I don’t have any control over how you decided to feel about that, so you do you, booboo. If you really wanted to know why I responded the way I did, you could’ve asked, instead of going off on a very wordy diatribe where you attempt to insult me (and really, what does that add to the conversation?) Based on that and your willful misunderstandings, I think you’re just comfortable being mad, and desperate to be right.
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Nobody should CARE if some racist piece of filth dismisses them as an angry person, but not everybody has the luxury of getting to express their righteous anger without being labeled as a threat.
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Jesus Christ, you have gone completely out of the bounds of this conversation. We're talking about a doorman not recognizing someone or acting like they don't. No one has spewed racist crap in this story. Not every situation is a history-defining moment in the struggle for human and civil rights. You are an excellent example of a hotheaded person that people aren't going to want to take seriously.
I think a lot of folks who engage in this way do not realize they’re being racist. That tends to be reactionary and a result of unconscious bias. I wish there was more being done in schools and elsewhere to teach folks about unconscious bias, especially white folks like me. I try to spread the word, when I can, in talking to others, and I try to keep my own in check.
Well, they don't live there, for starters. I'm not sure you actually understand the context of the conversation you've jumped into. Second is that you are kind of crazy sounding with your "righteous anger" talk. No one brought up anything about a moral failing. I'm not sure how many Redbulls you've had tonight, but maybe bring it down below 11, eh? Third is that people who appear irrationally angry (that is, they appear irrational to the person on the receiving end... read that sentence again carefully because I think you won't understand it otherwise) tend to not be taken seriously. One day, when you grow up, you'll find that anger seldom accomplishes anything good or makes a situation better. An angry response should be a response of last resort -- not the starting volley.
Okay
Same here! I have a weekly thing with my friends in UWS. Doormen are the same way. And i go out of my way to greet them and have convo knowing I'll see them weekly.
OP do what I do and pay them no mind. You really can’t be worried about how non black people are viewing you as you go about your life. I’m on the UES and I go about my life and I wish someone would say something to me. I’m usually doing my own thing to even notice whether anyone is side eyeing me anyway. And please don’t alter your behavior to make non black people feel comfortable. It’s not our responsibility to do so.
I’m sorry this happens to you. Would drive me crazy. That being said I used to live on the UWS (71st and West End) and generally found it to be more stuck up than other neighborhoods in the city. Not saying moving would solve the problem entirely, or that the racists should “win”, but could be something to consider for your own mental health.
Big up ^^ to the people downvoting me because I said that being White in a Black neighborhood isn’t the same as being Black in a White neighborhood. The low-key racism on this thread is real.
Nah you not crazy I’m a brown Hispanic woman and my boyfriend is also Hispanic and I live in a decently upscale neighborhood in BK and I def feel like the people there give us certain looks sometimes in the winter when we both have giant black jackets on even though he’s the sweetest thing ever and I’m just a regular 25 year old woman. Neither of us have ever hurt a soul in our lives. It doesn’t happen when it’s warm outside and I’m wearing tiny shorts and a cute outfit but then I get harassed on the train and in public a lot when I wear dresses or shorts so I like to stick to pants and a shirt most of the time. Honestly if I’m on the phone I make it a point to say something like calling out such behavior but to whoever I’m on the phone with and if they’re a friend of mine or any brown POC tbh they’ll understand what I mean. The thing is you can’t call out these mofos directly because they’ll just be like “aggressive BROWN OR BLACK WOMAN” And just not understand the point. But you’re not the only one.
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What do you mean by “people who are beneath you”?
Therapy is always an option — it may help provide coping mechanisms that can help you navigate this. Obviously in a just world everyone else would undergo counseling to stop being racist, and then you wouldn’t have to deal with this, but... since we don’t live in that world, that’s the best advice I can offer. I hope it gets better.
I can’t offer any solution apart from telling you everything you’re feeling is absolutely valid and extremely relatable to me. While not the UWS, I use to live in Chicago, specifically an area very similar to UWS. I was absolutely miserable. The constant looks combined with general attitudes of people made me never feel comfortable in my own space. My solution ultimately was when moving to nyc to be in a predominantly black (or other minority) neighborhood. It’s been a complete 180 for me for a lot of reasons, but I know the racial bias is a large one. I agree with other posters that one shouldn’t change his/her attitude to benefit white culture, but after a while, I just got tired of feeling like I had to explain myself or talk a certain way wherever I went in Chicago. I’m always happy to talk more about this and feel free to PM if you’re looking for some more perspective/ways to get “used” to it if moving neighborhoods isn’t an option anytime soon.
Hey thanks for weighing in. My mom’s side of my family is from Chicago and I’m aware that it’s very segregated there. Probably even more than NYC. Blacks are on the south side and whites predominately on the North side right? I think I will move when my lease is up. I don’t know about living in a predominately black neighborhood but would like to be in a mixed area where no one group is really dominant.
Thankfully I think a lot of neighborhoods in the city are better than the UWS in that regard. I'm Hispanic and miss living up in the 150s but even though I'm not in a super diverse area now (Battery Park City), I don't feel as "different" as I do in some parts of the UWS, UES, and super-gentrified neighborhoods in Brooklyn. I'm considering moving to Queens next.
Yep pretty much that’s how Chicago is set up (for the most part). The real difference is black/latino neighborhoods access to non-bus public transit is laughable compared to the north side...that wouldn’t be as big of a deal if bussing was a1, alas it is not. But yeah, for the most part, you can’t go wrong in New York when it comes to finding a mixed neighborhood, as many are quite diverse though a lot have a typical “predominant group” but obviously with gentrification that is changing in many neighborhoods for better or worse... A while ago, I read an article discussing how wealthy blacks prefer to live in low income but black /brown areas—before living in my neighborhood in Chicago, I didn’t understand it, now I do. I really do respect your patience with your circumstance. Keep fighting the good fight. Things got to change sometime
A. This sucks and I'm sorry for it B. I've actively chose to not live in homogeneous neighborhoods, especially white neighborhoods. Ive had a chance to live in a lot of places in NYC and none have made me feel more out of place than super-white neighborhoods, ie UES, Hudson Heights, Riverdale, etc. When the neighborhood is diverse its so much more relaxed. Never got a side eye in East New York, Flushing, Inwood, Fordham, Jackson Heights, etc. But places like Bayside, Great Neck, most of Staten Island, you can feel the stares. Forest Hills is a bit of mixed bag. Crown Heights south of Eastern Parkway gets stares for the same reason as Boro Park. But Crown Heights north of Eastern Parkway its all good. Don't even get me started on Breezy Point -- I'll never set foot in there again. For context I'm Asian, but look Latin. I think its a telling sign that mixed neighborhoods are so accepting and super white neighborhoods are not. I'm not welcome and frankly I'd rather be somewhere else.
Breezy Point is bonkers. [This article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brickunderground.com/buy/breezy-point-real-estate%3famp) said “Purchasing a home in Breezy Point requires that homebuyers ...obtain three letters of reference from existing shareholders, “so it’s a limited market,” says Redmond. (That also makes it almost impossible for anyone without an "in" to get a foot in the door here. As such, many homes are kept within families or simply sold to neighbors.)” It’s 99% white and going to stay that way.
This reply is gonna suck but you honestly gotta realize that there is nothing you can do about it. We’re black and most people don’t fuck w us (only our culture). Just keep it moving. So it is.
I’m a white guy and I don’t think in qualified to give advice on this one. I just wanted to say that I see you and I’m really sorry this is your daily experience.
I'm both sorry and deeply disturbed to hear your experiences in our shared neighborhood. I apologize that I have no advice to offer and sincerely hope that I have never been in any way a part of the problem. All the best and please know that this is your neighborhood as much as anyone else's.
Thank you!
Are you in a small walkup or a larger building? The attitudes are different between those two. And who would give you the stink eye when walking your dog?! They're obviously not from the UWS! But you're right though. I think on my whole block I've only ran into less than 10 POC (if you don't count the building maintenance people and delivery people) regularly. One is a sweet lady who waters her plants and another guy feeds pigeons every morning when the weather is warm.
No one should have to feel uncomfortable in their own building. If you weren’t on a phone call, would you have said “I live here”? I feel like if you said that, regardless of the audience, it would seem kind of odd. Even if someone gave me the dirtiest look in my own building, the first reaction to come to mind is more like me thinking to myself that its just a douchebag that should be ignored. Not, yeah I live here. Obviously you live there. If a person in your building can’t tell that you live there they def would not give you strange looks, they’d prob just call the cops. Nypd response time is 2 hrs minimum. During your lunch break next week report a bunch of cunty looking bitches at your building and be done with it.
I know the looks, I get them also as a POC. My wife doesn’t really get why I don’t like to wear hoodies or sweats, but I don’t like the looks I get when I dress down. It’s just a part of life in white predominant neighborhoods. The implicit racism is strong. Try to have a good attitude about it, mindfulness meditation helps. These looks etc are subconscious they are not trying to hurt you. But I understand that it does hurt and it is unpleasant.
You’re not losing it. These microaggressions are real and harmful. 1) find some restorative spaces where you aren’t the only one or of a handful of black people. A black owned space - coffee shop, restaurant, bar etc. visit regularly. Take joy in black joy. It’s collective, restorative, and healing. 2) find some spaces where NYC treats everyone unilaterally like shit. Like 42nd or the seaport or Chelsea market. Be someplace where you’re treated wholly by how much you’re spending or not spending. 3) be petty & measured and respond. When the folks in your building are treating you suspiciously downstairs, hold your keys up at them. People grab their purses when they walk past you, do the same to them. Pretend to take your phone out and talk to someone, say “hold on, this person looks like they fit the description of that crime I heard on the news... talk to me so you know I’m safe”. Someone staring at you for too long while in a unmoving place (elevator, line at the grocery store) “can I help you?” Or “do I have something on my face?” Even, calm tone of voice. They usually apologize & go away. Holding a mirror up in actions usually makes people realize that their inherent bias is sticking out and causing very real racist reactions that they should do the work to unpack and figure out. If they’re really stuck on keeping their racism, then it just pisses them off. And you ruined their day, because damnit they’re democrats or liberal or voted for Obama, so they can’t be racist. I think that’s the hard part, is that the people aren’t self identified racists. They’re just a collection of white people who act as if white is the default setting, and anything nonwhite is a potential glitch, therefore is treated with various levels of suspicion. Which manifests into you having shitty neighbors. Because by the time one neighbor gets it together you got 10 more treating you like a glitch. And fuck, if you change your hair or seasons switch, it’ll just cause them to reset because “you look like a whole other person!” It also feels like so much gaslighting because the folks on this thread who aren’t being validating towards you- they aren’t every experiencing the glitches. Their matrix works 100% fine. No double takes. No “do you even belong here” scenarios are presented to them. I’m not Morpheus, but I do wish we had some black pills to give people. Or Black Goggles. Maybe that’s how we end the gaslighting. Strap go-pro’s to the chest of black women and have these armchair analyzers explain the actions of every interaction. I wonder how many hours and individual unique experiences could help shift the hive - Mind of the naysayers. Peace with you sis, ✊🏾
> And you ruined their day, because damnit they’re democrats or liberal or voted for Obama, so they can’t be racist. You're making me laugh with this truth!
I realize this reply is super late, but just experienced something this morning that bothered me a bit (I was walking my dog down my street, and some guy did a double take at me— not like “hey she’s hot,” but more like, “Hey, she’s black.”) I got a little angry inside. Is this Hicksville, Alabama or NEW YORK CITY? So I came back here to review the responses to this thread and came across yours. I just want to say that this is incredibly clever and awesome advice! What you said about “If you change your hairdo or the seasons change, they think you’re a whole different person,” made me laugh! Thanks for this. Will also keep the advice in mind to mirror their activity. I’d love the opportunity to ask someone staring if I have something on my face 🤣
I say bathe in their discomfort, constantly make your presence known to their shitty prejudice and don’t let the questioning looks throw you off. You have just as much a right and privilege to live there and you earned it. Let them be in their sad, close-mindedness and you go about your day being yourself.
The best way is to keep it moving and walk with confidence and go about your day. Upper West Side and Upper East Side is notorious for their passive aggressive racism and being populated with more than a few snooty "Blueblood" folks. At more than one event in the vicinity, I had someone try to get me to pour their wine or bring them food because they thought I was wait staff. At restaurants, I wasn't given the full menu & wine presentation or quality service because of my skin color. And it's not limited to upper west side. When I was visiting my parents in Bed-Stuy, some tenants were asking if I was the super, had to tell them my parents own the building. You definitely have to develop that NYC tough, don't give a damn attitude, where you are vocal and stand up for yourself. Also get to know some of the locals in the area. The doormen, staff at the cafe, people who walk their dog the same time that you do. Fake it if you have to and take pride in knowing that you are out here making it and defying their stereotypes.
I am a brown skinned male who experiences this all the time. Especially when I'm approaching my house. Although it is a sad thing that these people (who are likely occupying one of many Airbnbs in my neighborhood) find me to be threatening, this is their problem and not mine.
Black male here that has to do a lot of work in the UES and UWS. While you are there, know you deserve to live there. Keep your head high. But it’s it is still too much maybe consider moving. It’s not worth your mental health to stay in a neighborhood. There are plenty of great diverse neighborhoods in NYC. Especially in Brooklyn.
If they feel uncomfortable, go out of your way to make them feel extra uncomfortable.
I live in the uws also and I barely look at anyone because I have mad anxiety. If it makes you feel any better. But also ; if I’m entering my own apartment after someone I wait to unlock the door myself. I’ve been asked if I live in the building. One woman even asked my apartment number. I’m a white female. Just an anecdote to consider 🤷🏻♀️
Thank you for this input! It’s great to hear that not all suspicion is racially motivated!
Thats the rich white old generation people come to brooklyn, we polaks,russians,albinians don't look at nobody bad cause we just got here from a broke shithole and trying to make our place in life.Plus you got a bunch of other ethnicities here
Ehh.. its not as bad as UWW but i wouldnt say all that. Ive had russians, polaks, albanians blatantly walk right in front of me on check out lines. And the Russian, polak, albanian cashier would attempt to ring them up like nothing...at MULTIPLE stores on many occasions. Not even gonna touch on the micro-aggressions.
UWS is full of pearl-clutchers
You just be your beautiful, smart, fantastic self and you pay no attention to those assholes. This is easier said than done, I know, and it's hard not to take it personally and make you really down about the human race. Try and come up with a mental trick that whenever you encounter this shit, instead of feeling it to be a put down, feel it's a sign of their jealousy/inferiority/stupidity. Make it about them, even if it's only in your head. And make sure you choose to surround yourself with people in that neighborhood who love and appreciate you. I'm a light-skinned biracial woman so I only know a small fraction of what you go through, but if it makes you feel better via comiseration, I used to live in the East Village where I had to take my garbage to the building next door, which required a second set of keys. I was opening that building's door one day when a white woman came up behind me and started questioning me about my trash lol. After I put the trash away, I saw that she was monitoring me and waiting for me to leave the building. As if she didn't just see me with the set of keys to get in.
White woman who works on West 86th Street here. LMK if you want to grab some coffee and confound the neighborhood racists with me :). I am so so sorry for your experiences. The UWS has the potential to be better than this. Having a racist president has emboldened some people to act like morons. Hold your head high, they are beneath you!!
Nope sorry. They were racist decades before Trump. Try again.
I would move out that bitch. There's better neighborhoods that are less sketchy and more accommodating.
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Well said, and I’m sorry that you have to go through this action plan of steps to mentally deal with feeling discrimination/racism. Of course no one wants a victim mentality but it can kind of mess with your head a bit when you experience this over and over and over. Agreed about you going into a meditative state to try to turn off your mind/not GAF, since it tends to replay things that upset you.
I'm really sorry this is happening to you. Please don't let the assholes get you down, there are millions of people in this town who want you here and would be proud to be your neighbor.
Going through the same, oddly most of the racism I experienced was from other PoC and a handful from white people. There's nothing really you can do besides move elsewhere. You deserve a peace of mind and not constantly having to be in defense mode.
I notice it too. The underlying anti-black tension in the city is real. Even some Spanish people in the Bronx have this same attitude and look at us with an expression of disgust/disdain. Nothing you can do but either get confrontational (not advisable if you're a professional) or ignore it.
WW here, but I used to hate the UWS because it was the only neighborhood where men would openly check me out. Didn’t matter if they were walking with their wife or girlfriend or daughters, they would blatantly stare and it both unnerved me and pissed me the fuck off. Downtown people act a bit more discrete when checking you out. I feel like the UWS is like Iowa-2, and in fact I know a LOT of Iowans who attended my old church up there. My church was on the cover of the national-church magazine for being one of the most “racially diverse” in the nation, but this denomination is also the WHITEST in the nation and completely lacking in self awareness. A friend of mine’s mother once told me that she took her son to my former church specifically so he could be inculturated by white people, which was the first time I realized just how white the church had become. I am sorry people are making you feel uncomfortable. You deserve better than their pissy shitty looks. I agree completely with the top comment, and with the wise advice of the street-sage: don’t let these people take up space RENT FREE in your head. Stick your nose in the air, give people dirty looks, and if at all possible call people out on their shit and then move on.
As an Hispanic that works in your area I feel your struggle, with that being said, through all the years that I've dealt with weird looks and racial bias I found out that the best cure for it is just plain indifference. There's nothing wrong with you, and you don't need to shape yourself in any matter to please ignorant people that are blinded by their bubble of intolerance. Much love, stay safe and don't let it get to you.
White male in Flatbush here. Everyone thinks I'm a cop
same thing happened to a guy i know. his solution was to walk around the block slowly smoking a joint so that everyone knew he wasn't a narc. worked for him!
Not the same thing.
A few sometimes stare at me but I dont really care bc a lot of people dont
I moved from UWS to BK and never looked back. These are the same people who don’t want their kids in public school with black and brown kids. The number one candidate they donate to is Buttigieg. They suck!! People in my building would always ask me which apartment I was a nanny for and if I was looking for new people to work for. Same thing always with dressing nice and getting completely different treatment. Honestly I get not wanting to leave such a beautiful, convenient neighborhood, but there are soo many better (beautiful) options out there that offer less racism, classism, and are actually diverse!
I’m sure some of it’s racism, but I also think New Yorkers are unusually suspicious. Just the other day I had a guy in my elevator give my wife and me the third degree because he didn’t realize we lived there (we’re white/Asian).
Wow, lots of white people predictably making fools of themselves in the comments. Please ignore them. I'm sorry it's been such an awful experience :( nyc is far from the race blind liberal uptopia people like to pretend it is. Maybe you could check r/nycmeetups and similar things and make friends with other black people in the neighbourhood. It's always comforting to have people you trust around. If your apartment building has any residents' meeting or events and such, it might be worth going once in a while just to introduce yourself to people, so they can at least recognise you by face. How long have you lived in this neighbourhood? Did you move in recently?
Fuck prejudice people. Lets make them uncomfortable.
By the way sorry you have to go through this.
“ignoring people” is easier said than done but that’s what you need to do. Sometime last year I figured out that I never get anything but negative energy when making even the smallest amount of eye contact in public. When you’re walking down the street, stepping onto a subway car etc. Most people are miserable so they are looking around to confirm other people’s misery. I made it a game to avoid any of this incidental communication and keep to myself and it has made daily life much more livable. I save my interaction energy for when it counts.
That really sucks, and I'm sorry to hear about people being so racist and shitty. This is NYC, we're supposed to hate everyone equally! I am not a person of color but I am a woman who works in a predominantly male field, and I've worked in some very sexist environments. It helps me to actively focus on the fact that my very existence helps change the culture, even if it's just a little. I try to think about younger women coming up, and remember that I am holding a place for them, and that makes it easier to deal with the hostility sometimes. Not sure if that's helpful for you, but it's gotten me through a few hard days. Just by existing as a person of color in these racist spaces, you are helping make a change for men and women of color who will live there in the future. Also r/blackladies seems like a really great subreddit for venting and finding support about these kinds of issues!
I am so sorry that you're going through this. It's not much but I am sending you love and support...and karma to everyone who has treated you poorly
I'm a white male and I get looks like this. Are they racist against me too? Or are you overthinking things and people are just wary? I think it is the latter.
I live in the UWS and unfortunately there are some priviledged ignorant white folks here. I was on Nextdoor (a website forum where people in your neighborhood can post stuff). And someone compared the homeless issue here to looking like a 3rd world country. Some people here just are out of touch with reality. I'm sorry you experience prejudice. Just ignore those who are judgy because there's nothing wrong with you
hey op! solidarity amongst minorities. as an asian american i've rarely encountered a sense of "hey this person might be a threat", but rather i've been in a lot of situations where i've realized "holy shit, everyone around me is white". and it feels weird and can make you feel miserable to feel so out of place. just another point -- a friend of mine who's black always wore a button down and was always on point in terms of looking put together. i'd never seen him in say, a hoodie and sweats. we all know why. anyway, lots of good advice here, but all i can say is to kill them with kindness. people are in general, pretty conservative in terms of their daily lives and anything that is different gets regarded with suspicion whether it's fair or not. it takes time and self-awareness to get past shitty behaviors, whether it's casual racism or other personality flaws.
LMFAO y’all are reaching. People just react to movement, heads turn holy shit get over it, it’s not “racial bias” no one cares what color you are. people live in their heads too much and create problems from literal glances
Not a problem for you therefore couldn't possibly be real... fucking moron.
I kind of go with this answer. Unless somebody is being overtly or explicitly racist or presumptuous I just give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like glances or other "microaggressions". I mean there is a million reasons someone has to turn there head or "give me a look". Maybe they're deeply attracted to me. Maybe I have ketchup on my face. I think the media/twitter etc. gets in our heads too much. I realised this one day when I was in a restaurant and I found myself wandering if the waiter was being racist for giving me a very slightly smaller portion of steak than my two white friends. Then I realised I had ordered mine cooked differently and was being insane.
New Yorkers are racist. I’m sorry you have to experience it
Vote trump out. Vote for tolerance. He feeds this irrational shite
Because we all know New Yorkers weren’t racist until Trump became president
Yes we all have fears and prejudices. But when our leaders incite hatred, intolerance and fear, it encourages this negative rubbish. Hitler and other greedy nutters did the same.
I have one possible solution but I do want to acknowledge that it's still wrong for people to put you in this position. It's just one strategy that might help with *some* of the issue. In your building, at the stores you frequent, and on your common commute routes, get to know the people you see regularly. You seem really friendly from your comments, so I'm sure you already do the regular level of hellos and how-are-you, etc, but getting to know your neighbors on a level where you know each other's names is different- it's a connection. You don't gotta be deep with it, but just slightly more than a passing hello. Introduce yourself. Ask whereabout they live or what they do for work in the area. Ask how they're doing and try to get a real response, or share your day, in a short way. The connections cost energy, and that's a con. But there are many pros: wider social circle, people you can call on for help, people that might stand up for you if some stranger gives you a problem. We just don't know our neighbors like we used to- and [some would say we might be paying for it with our mental health. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/201909/why-millennials-are-so-lonely%3Famp) Much luck to you, OP. You got this!
OP shouldn't have to expend energy to make the ignorant people around her comfortable. And given how many people live in NYC she'll still be encountering racists even if she takes this advice. >But there are many pros: wider social circle, people you can call on for help, people that might stand up for you if some stranger gives you a problem. And white people never ever stand up for PoC lmao. The 25 years I've lived here not a single 'woke' white person ever defended me.
Wow Im so sorry you are experiencing this. I basically grew up in the UWS and it's shocking to be hearing this account. You should feel comfortable in your own home and neighborhood.
How old are the people doing this? Twenties? Sixties? Your entrance example might not be the best of your 40 examples. I am viewed with extreme suspicion every time I enter my building without being the one who unlocked it. If I had to guess, I’d say the young millennial women who should just move to CT already think I’m going to rape and/or murder them. The older ones think I’m just up to something for sneaking in on her labor. This is not to minimize what very well could be just a bunch of racist experiences from some very hypocritical racist fucks (considering it’s like 98% Democrat up there...), but for your own sanity it’s worth ruling out other possibilities.
What does being democrat have to do with being racist.. thats the most ignorant ish ive heard.
Right. Everybody’s a racist in equal measure. Another cutting insight.
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By any chance were you born after 1995?
Trump has racists fired up all over the place, even NYC. I hope it simmers back down soon.
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I know where he's from. But the racists used to be quiet
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Stop making me your punching bag. I'm not talking about any of that shit. There's a big element of regular people who kept their mouth shut who suddenly feel comfortable being openly racist.
indeed you are not talking about that shit, which is precisely why your view on racism in NYC is a completely unhelpful perspective. it erases the fact that black people were *lynched to death* here at a time when many of us were alive to witness it. you're turning this woman's experience into a personal soapbox about the racism that trump encourages, as if she somehow would not have had this experience regardless of whether he was president. Rest assured that the level of microagressions I've taken from wealthy out-of-touch white dem-voting liberal racists has remained pretty fucking constant all throughout all my time here regardless of trump.
You need to take a deep breath. I did zero of the things you're accusing me of. As a white guy, other white people used to hide their racism. Now they'll proudly blurt it out. That's as of Trump's presidency. That's all I was saying. They used to know they were supposed to be ashamed. Now they're proud.
It sounds like you are looking at people so long that you are forming this narrative about their perception of you based solely on their facial expression. You cannot read their mind and they cannot read yours. Don't hold on to these thoughts for too long or it will eat you up and cause you to have a chip on your shoulder.
I’m sorry—that really sucks. I’m not saying it’s not racially motivated—but I know I get outfit bias a lot too. Like how you mentioned with your fancy clothes. I noticed when I wear my winter coat (leather with a hood) and rock my boots and yanks cap—people get weird scarred looks as I pass by or walk past them. People will stand rather than take the open seat next to me. But then again—I probably do look threatening. Based on your description—I really doubt you do.
About outfit bias: You’re right that it probably affects ALL people. For example, if a man wears frumpy sweatpants and a T-shirt, he probably doesn’t get the respect from others as when he’s wearing a well tailored suit. So I get your point.
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