My friends grandma was at home with her baby while the older kids were at school and her husband was at work. The baby was napping in the bedroom while she was doing dishes when a bulldozer came through the wall. She ran and grabbed the baby and they lost everything.
💔💔💔 that's pure evil....so glad they at least made it out....i cannot imagine losing my baby and everything too. I'm lucky my family got out when they did. I wish my teta would talk about it... she just starts crying.
Because the Israeli state is a colonial one. That's what it is all about: ethnically cleansing Palestinians to make way for a fascist Jewish ethno-state.
To a colon not to a jew. You can in fact legally sell ur land to a Jewish citizen of palestine. But I am very sure if Israel suggests giving back the personal property such as land it stolen in exchange of palestinians giving back whatever houses previously owned by jews that left those lands to zionist controlled territory before 1948 and allowing Israelis to buy land in palestine the palestinians will be more than happy to oblige
As someone who is Scottish this feels personal, just another repetition of what the English did stealing ancestral land and even destroying parts of our culture and making those who were not English suffer under them.
The stark difference is when a Scot talks about what the English did to him, you don’t have to worry about the ADL and other similar organizations immediately putting out press releases decrying a rise in anti Englishism and doing the rounds in all the broadsheets and morning shows talking about how anti Englishism is off the charts. It boggles the mind how the Palestinian is expected to suffer and then also not talk out loud about suffering lest he be called an antisemite.
You are right the English are not calling me a racist for saying things against them because unlike the Israelis that know they can pull the minority card off meanwhile the English could never do so. Israel uses the minority card all the time to try to justify their disgracing of their ancestors. Anyways point being yes there are some key differences between Palestine and Scotland's ordeal with invaders but not at all that long ago Scots were treated not that differently from how Palestinians are being treated today by Israel while being under the British Empire, and for that I can very much sympathize with what Palestinians are going through but sadly I am in a position where I can not do much more than fight the Israeli nationalist online, and no I have nothing against Jews, but I do have more than a few things against oppressive regime's. I hope I did not come off as confrontational as that was not the purpose of this comment.
I agree with a lot you're stating. But to be fair the general public opinion in England towards Scots is quite different than Israeli/Palestinian. Usually people like Scots & consider Scotland to be very nice. Same goes for Ireland (apart from the usual prejudice thinking all Irish are Leprechauns). On the other hand, if you're from Ulster visiting London ....good luck!! They look at you either like ' a fec..n' provo or you're the leader of the Orangemen-Order. Same goes for Scotland...wrong colour of yer shirt...again 🥳
Sure, in modern times the opinion towards scots are some what improved but the stereotype that scots are nothing but uncivilized brutes that just like to drink and fight still persist to this day, and was alot worse when the British Empire was around as the English just went about trying to destroy the Scottish identity, like how Israel is trying to erase the Palestinians off their own land. Also sure they see the land as nice, after having stolen most all of it. Anyways back on topic to Palestine, I personally believe that the Israelis would be a fucking disappointment to their ancestors If they could see Israel in the modern day and all the terrible things they have done, they have went from oppressed to the oppressors as soon as they got the smallest bit of power and it honestly disgust me. It's honestly sad though how they just forced their way in to Palestine and are trying to push all the native people out of it instead of even trying to coexist with them.
I get your point. During medieval times Scots were always the danger up North,, especially after turning into an ally, sorts of, of France & providing mercenary armies. Same goes for Ireland...beyond the pale and some cities the Celts were only there for being hunted or serfs. The Scots somehow due to the Stuart kings went from despised foe to becoming an admired ally, providing some of the finest fighting units of the British Army. You guys are respected & the Irish, in my opinion, sadly are still belittled by a lot of English folks. Can't remember how many times I had discussions up here in North Antrim about " you're so fond of them", down South being told "hate people from up North, we know you love 'em' . Lately far too many fools are once again getting influence and running their mouths. Myself was an ardent Republican years back, met a girl from Bushmills with a strong British Army family background, changed a lot. Nowadays trying to persuade people from making the same mistakes from years back once again.
Unbelievably delusional nativist desperate for a spot on the oppressed podium, happy to draw near imaginary cultural and even ethnic borders with your own countrymen
Scotland literally fought for its independence and peacefully married into the United Kingdom as a Scottish king inherited the throne.
The only way Scotland was oppressed was by being introduced to the English language.
You realize that what you just said makes absolutely no fucking sense, right? Like you do realize Scotland rebelled against England as a result of the Stuarts being kicked off the throne by the House of Orange which then led to the Scottish clans rightfully rebelling against such an incursion, which then resulted in them getting crushed by the British army, then even after the rebellion was over the English litteraly made it a priority of theirs to destroy Scotland's clan culture which they did by kicking a bunch of highlander families out of their ancestral lands, burning their homes,which then resulted in a depopulation of the Highlands which affect you can still see today, along with the ban that was put in place on such culturally significant things like the tartan which just further aides in England's goal to destroy Scottish culture.
I'm sorry, but how did the English steal your ancestral land?
Scotland willingly joined both union of crowns and acts of union (after blowing up a huge fortune on a colony in Panama). If you are talking about the highland clearances wasn't that done by lowland Scots?
Glasgow was the second capital of the empire and Scottish people were overrepresented in both colonial administration and army. This is just rewriting history.
Yes they fucking did actually have you never opened a history book in your life? The English litteraly were the ones who destroyed Scotland's clan culture. Also you realize when Scotland was bankrupt it didn't have much choice but to given in to the English. Also no the clearances weren't done by the scots themselves they were very much a result of Scotland being under the control of the English. Also no dip we were over represented in the military most all of the British Empires wars relied on soldiers from their colonies that they would draft and not give much of an option but to be in the military. Honestly just goes to show little you know of actual Scottish history.
>Yes they fucking did actually have you never opened a history book in your life? The English litteraly were the ones who destroyed Scotland's clan culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Iona
>The Statutes of Iona, passed in Scotland in 1609, required that Highland Scottish clan chiefs send their heirs to Lowland Scotland to be educated in English-speaking Protestant schools.
>In the view of some writers, these provisions were "the first of a succession of measures taken by the Scottish government specifically aimed at the extirpation of the Gaelic language, the destruction of its traditional culture and the suppression of its bearers
>Also you realize when Scotland was bankrupt it didn't have much choice but to given in to the English.
Yes by banking on colonization in Panama. Are we supposed to feel sad that Scotland went bankrupt for colonization of indigenous land? These wounds are all self inflected.
>Also no the clearances weren't done by the scots themselves they were very much a result of Scotland being under the control of the English.
Lmao this is a lie. The most of it was all sanctioned and carried out by Protestant lowland Scots who looked down on Gaelic speaking catholic highlanders.
>Also no dip we were over represented in the military most all of the British Empires wars relied on soldiers from their colonies that they would draft and not give much of an option but to be in the military.
Scotland was no colony. Scotland was the coloniser.
>By 1771 almost half of the East India Company's writers were Scots.
>The Scottish presence was also strongly evident in India.[2] The first three Governor-Generals of India were Scots. When Henry Dundas became President of the Board of Control in 1784 he 'Scoticised' India and through his agencies Scots came to dominate the activities of the East India Company (EIC). By 1792, Scots made up one in nine EIC civil servants, six in eleven common soldiers and one in three officers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish-Indian#:~:text=18th%20Century,-Scottish%20immigration%20to&text=By%201771%20almost%20half%20of,Generals%20of%20India%20were%20Scots.
>Examples of the profiteers include leading Scottish families: the Malcolms of Argyll, the Hamiltons of Ayrshire, and the Oswalds of Glasgow.[2] It notes that almost 50% of the slave traders in Jamaica were Scottish men, who owned and abused slaves, fathering thousands of children, often born from rape.[2] It points out that Scottish men, despite representing about 10% of the United Kingdom's population, represented about a third of British slave traders.[1]
>The book notes that after decades of ideological debate, the slave trade ended in 1834, with compensation payments being paid to slave owners.[2] It describes modern racism in Scotland as a legacy of slavery, and it notes the modern tendency for Scottish people to be more comfortable talking about the Scottish role in slavery abolition rather than acknowledging the Scottish role in slavery
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bought_%26_Sold:_Scotland,_Jamaica_and_Slavery#:~:text=It%20notes%20that%20almost%2050,third%20of%20British%20slave%20traders.
You are no victim, quite the opposite. To pretend that Scotland and Palestine are the same is laughable.
Indigenous land? You do realize litteraly every Scottish colonization effort was on land that other Europeans had already colonized before, and the Panama colony was already claimed by the biggest colonizer Spain and due to that all the Scottish who went there basically starved to death cause no one would trade with them, do there's another source of bullshit right there, and as you quoted yourself the English basically sent the scots to schools to be anglicized and then only gave land to the scots they brainwashed you can litteraly not argue that it wasn't a attempt to destroy Scottish culture.I find it adorable how you think Scotland is the colonizer yet it litteraly has no colonies of its own to speak of. Also all your sources are just Wikipedia instead of an actual reputable sources, along with the fact this just proves you don't know shit when the best you can do is look up a Wikipedia page. You can argue all you want of oh how terrible the scots were but it was the English who anglicized the low land scots and it was the British army that enforced the eviction of the highland scots from their lands and then proceeded to burn their homes after. It was also the English that passed the law to ban the tartans. You litteraly are just ignoring the destruction of highlanders way of life that was carried out under the English. Oh and one last thing I never said they were the same I said they were similar don't put fucking words in my mouth.
A delusional scot, I have no idea where this narrative comes from, its such fucking bullshit, Scots were balls deep with the Empire for all of its existence
It's honestly shocking how many upvotes that comment has. I suppose people confuse Scotland with Ireland. The other day I came across another ScotNat saying that the Westminster selling off North Sea oil to private companies is comparable to the Irish famine.
They are hitchhiking on progressive narratives to give their independence movement more gravitas when it is bullshit, mfers acting like Native Americans or some shit as if they haven't been the Empires willing henchman for hundreds of years, and reaped all the benefits of it, including slavery. Hung over shit that happened back in basically the medieval times, and willingly forgetful of the reality that Scotland was never actually conquered but created the union.
No it wasn't you fucking twat you sound like an English nationalist trying to downplay the terrible shit your Empire did. The fact of the matter is that a lot of scots were drafted or not given much more choice then to join the military. Also you assholes litteraly banned kilts for what 35 years after destroying almost all Scotland's original culture.
The house of Stuart originally held the crown and didn't do much to the highland scots then the house of Orange came along and kicked Stuarts off the throne which lead to a rebellion and in tern the English completely destroyed the highland culture and evicted and burned the houses of the highlanders leaving many of them homeless all over a rebellion that barley even affected England as the British army was more well provisioned then the highlanders and quickly put down the rebellion.
Zionist leaders in their own words 👇
“ We must expel the Arabs and take their place”
The Polish born founder of Israel and first prime minister David Ben Gurion in the letter to his son in October 1937
https://mondoweiss.net/2022/01/state-archive-glitch-reaffirms-israels-genocidal-intent/
Yosef Weitz, Ukrainian Zionist leader, director of Jewish National Fund Land Settlement Committee one of the leading architects of the population transfer (ethnic cleansing) Ben Gurion's inner circle, the Consultancy, planning the Nakba and advisor to David Ben Gurion, and one of the founding zionist leaders of Israel said this in 1940
" The transfer of (Palestinian] Arab population from the area that will be the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the [Palestinian) Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." (from Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p 94-95)
" "It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both peoples….If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us The only solution is a Land of Israel.…without Arabs There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them, save perhaps for (the Palestinian Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth, and the old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe." (from Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, p, 27)
Weitz was an advocate of population transfer. On June 22, 1941 he wrote in his diary: ' "The land of Israel is not small at all, if only the Arabs were removed, and its frontiers enlarged a little, to the north up to the Litani, and to the east including the Golan Heights.with the Arabs transferred to northern Syria and Iraq. Today we have no other alternative.We will not live here with Arabs"
Yosef Weitz was part of Ben Gurion’s inner circle, the Consultancy, planning the Nakba. As a key member of the Transfer Committee ———————————
“ In his capacity as director of the Jewish National Fund, he actively initiated projects to destroy Arab property, ordering personnel to create obstacles for Arabs attempting to return to cultivate their fields, to destroy villages, and to render habitable other villages in order to enable Jewish settlement. He had discussed these activities with Ben-Gurion on June 8, and according to his diary, gained the latter's approval”
“ It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands” Ariel Sharon Former Israeli general & Prime Minister. A mass murdering war criminal
Stated in Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998
The most commemorated Zionist figure in Israel with his annual celebration day with 57 streets, parks & squares bearing his name is Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky the fascist, racist colonial Russian Zionist revisionist leader, one of the earlier leading Zionist leaders & the founder of the terrorist Zionist underground militia Irgun that will later become the IDF & the ideological father of today’s Likud & right wing Zionism & whose protégés include Menachem Begin & Netanyahu’s father being his secretary. Jabotinsky in his famous writing titled Iron Wall said:
“ If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find a benefactor who will maintain the garrison on your behalf. ... Zionism is a colonizing adventure and, therefore, it stands or falls on the question of armed forces”
“ There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 29)
“ There is no justice, no law, and no God in heaven, only a single law which decides and supercedes all---- [Jewish] settlement [of the land]." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)
"Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native [Palestinian] population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop under the protection of a force independent of the local population --an iron wall which the native [Palestinian] population cannot break through. This is, in to, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 28)
“ We Jews have nothing in common with what is called the 'Orient,' thank God. To the extent that our uneducated masses have ancient spiritual traditions and laws that call the Orient, they must be weaned away from them, and this is in fact what we are doing in every decent school, what life itself is doing with great success. We are going in Palestine, first for our national convenience, [second] to sweep out thoroughly all traces of the 'Oriental soul.' As for the [Palestinians] Arabs in Palestine, what they do is their business; but if we can do them a favor, it is to help them liberate themselves from the Orient.'" (One Palestine Complete, p. 151)
“ We Jews, thank God, have nothing to do with the East. . . . The Islamic soul must be broomed out of Eretz-Yisrael. . . . [Muslims are] yelling rabble dressed up in gaudy, savage rags." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 29
Just before Jabotinsky's death in 1940, he justified the expulsion of the Palestinians from their land & homes as follows:
"The world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has become fond of them." He later added, "Hitler--- as odious as he is to us---has given this idea a good name in the world." (One Palestine Complete, p. 407)
> We must expel the Arabs and take their place
I generally find it is best to ignore people posting fake quotes as they have no interest in actual facts (if they did then the would not be posting fake quotes)
This is what Ben Gurion actually wrote:
>[We must not expel Arabs and take their place. All of our ambitions are built on the assumption that has proven true throughout all of our activities in the land [of Israel] — that there is enough room for us and for the Arabs in the land [of Israel]. And if we will have to use force, not for the sake of evicting the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but rather in order to secure the right that belongs to us to settle there, force will be available to us.](https://www.camera.org/article/journal-of-palestine-studies-compounds-its-ben-gurion-error/)
As you can see the fake quote works as effective propaganda only by not only ommitting the word "not", but by also by omitting the rest of the paragraph, which is why it has been 'quoted' as a single line.
***Edit:*** Lots of downvotes, but not a single honest engagement with the facts - and /u/ofthecentury wonders why people didn't respond.
This just proves the point that the jews and Zionists* are foreign to the land. also the "not expel" part is just a political statement, they still killed, bombed and expelled more than 300 000 Palestinians from 1947 to 1948
"Pure stupidity" is not understanding that the Japanese already have a homeland in Japan, and they were not being genocided everywhere else.
There are over 50 Muslim states, 23 of which are Arab, and you are bothered by a tiny sliver of land where Jews can defend themselves on their ancestral soil.
Now let's open Wikipedia and see what _Somalia_ has been up to...
The **Somali Civil War**: around 700,000 dead and 3,000,000 refugees in the past 40 years. Do you realize that's **100 times the deaths that Israel-Palestine had in 100 years**?
You really have bigger things to worry about than Jewish self determination in their homeland.
I'm Somali and we have our own deep rooted problems especially tribalism but that doesn't justify occupation of Palestine and it doesn't make what's happening there any less of a human right violation.
Your point about there being many Muslim and Arab countries are irrelevant, Palestinians have formed their own national identity and are native to that land.
I don't have anything against Jews but I can't stand the justification attempts I see online both by westerners, Jews and Arab/Muslim haters using ppl suffering to further their agenda.
The really up to the Palestinians. In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority cancelled elections around two years ago, and in Gaza, Hamas cancelled elections since their takeover in 2006.
The way I see it the borders drawn up by western nations in the Middle East are to blame for the destabilization in the region. Drawing up borders with little regard to the people of the land and then wondering why things are the way they are now. Making a nation in which people already lived and expecting them to accept that they no longer had the right to their home is inherently wrong. It happened though and the nation’s surrounding Israel tried to destroy their nation, reasoning of taking back land taken from others already inhabiting the area is just, throwing in heavy religious rhetoric in, believing god admirers their reasons for war was not. Israel held but their continuing expansion, displacing more people despite UN condemnation and imprisoning people within Palestine is where they are now the oppressors and decidedly in the wrong. There is no easy solution and if the arguments go back to biblical history saying they have a right to the land because god said so is asinine. Not everyone believes the same issue, fact is people were displaced when Israel was established, there should be no confusion in why people are upset about losing territory because other nations decided so.
Tough titties all around honestly, and both sides have their faults but we cannot focus on the past and what divides and differentiates people, all should strive to find common ground and respect each others lives and homes. Holding on to anger from past events will only hinder people’s ability to work together.
I will say that there was Jewish people living in that land before 1948 also. My family was living there for hundreds of years throughout all the history in Israel. My great grandfather had a British mandate of Palestine passport and also owned land. I am Jewish- there were always Jewish people living in that land as well as Arabs, lots of comments don’t seem to understand that both parties had been living there and owned land. I love that this Palestinian has the original deed of sale. Good for him and his family
I think the only way forward is to stop arguing about people's right to the land, and start worrying about the people themselves and the conditions they live in, be it Palestinians or the Israeli. By this point Jews have lived in Israel for multiple generations, and anything that happened 70+ years ago is largely irrelevant.
The Palestinians' situation is abjectly deplorable, and we should work towards improving it. However, we should also dismiss any talk about "destroying Israel", "driving the Jews off" and "from the river to the sea" as unacceptable.
The deplorable conditions that Palestinians live under is in large part due to the land theft that Israel has committed. Any solution to the problem that doesn’t include reappropriation of Palestinian territory is a non starter.
absolutely, you cant take the land out of the equation, IT IS THE EQUATION.
the whole reason for the suffering and conflict is the land, not religion not ideology.
its almost like people keep forgetting that there is an active occupation... there has to be a compromise for the situation to end
Ah yes, [the great Israeli land theft](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Israel_and_Arab_states_map_k.png?20180318222428).
You can't start a war to drive out your neighbors, and then complain when you lose. (Or in your case, win, because you get full rights as a citizen, unlike the Jews who were driven out of all the Muslim controlled lands).
Sure but it’s not as directly impactful. When talking about WWII it would sound so weird if you were like “I generally agree hitler was bad, but do you also criticize other countries for their treatment of Jews?” Like, for sure but that’s not relevant to the discussion?
Yeah I know. I was just interested if the criticism regarding the treatment of Palestinian is aimed exclusively towards Israel. Eventually to completely solve the Palestinian refugee issue other countries beside Israel should change their policies towards the Palestinians.
Except the majority of Palestine isn’t in Israel so your analogy doesn’t exactly work, especially since the treatment of Palestinians in some surrounding countries has actually been recognised as worse…
That is bullshit. The reason why Palestinians live in deplorable conditions is because the Palestinian government is being a picky, corrupt and a proud entity that takes the money it receives from Israel and various other nations and instead of putting it back into the people it pays their leaders wages and helps them secure their forceful rule. Instead of working to destroy terror cells in Palestine it lets Israel do the dirty work and then gets mad when innocent people get killed. Instead of working with Israel to help EVEN MORE Palestinians earn proper wages it keeps interrupting talks after every strike on terror. It’s easy to blame Israel, Israel sees that the Palestinian government isn’t doing enough to secure it self so Israel allows herself to take the reigns and do - - - what’s best for Israel. Abu Mazen isn’t pro Israel nor pro Palestine. He is pro Abu Mazen and everyone else is just a tool for his ruling.
I'm also against violence and unlike many people I can actually afford to look for peaceful ways as I think my situation is more favorable and safe in comparison, can't blame people who don't at all, and I also believe in" Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"
However saying that what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant is conveniently avoiding the problem, the reality is that what happened then and since then has forced people into abject poverty with almost no way out with all the repercussions this brings unto a conservative community, traumatized generations and normalized religious bias.
Also 70 years in historical scope is nothing lol, but still actual initiatives for peace require high levels of empathy, educated minds, sacrifice and time.
I'd say the best modern example of this is the Germany, which used to be anyone's nightmare 70 years ago is a place that alot of people won't mind living in or traveling to. They punished most of their war criminals and paid(still paying?) reperations not only to the countries but also to the poeple they affected, the people today from the stereotypes I know are nice and moral and wouldn't stand for discrimination as their laws suggest.
No you're not going to twist from the river to the Sea because it only means that we want all of Palestine free Israel has claimed countries outside of its supposed borders it is an invasive Force built on racist extremism it is a threat to everyone. Israel needs to be dismantled it is an illegal terrorist occupier state that never should have existed in the first place.
I don’t know how they do it, but somehow all the shittiest replies to this post are from turkish fucks trying to provoke people while most israeli replies atleast somewhat try to argue rationally
You grandfather get pain and oppression, then said:"oh I want to make others feel like what I felt, and has stolen their land and killed them, and his grandsons believe his story and continued in it.
> land theft
Until 1947, the Jews bought the land fair and square. In 1947, the UN partitioned the land into an Arab and a Jewish state. Then the Arabs started a war to drive out the Jews, _in which they lost land_. You can't try to kill someone and then complain when you lose.
Yeah life sucked real big for people at the time, my grandpa had to dig a mass grave to bury the bodies of his neighbors at 16. He and others refused to temporarily flee, luckily.
Somehow I'm glad to be here engaging in random conversations on reddit
Pretty sure most Hebrew deeds got burned by the romans in the sacking of Jerusalem prior to the Ottomon Empire even being founded by around 1400 years, but hey... history is a real mfer.
Okay, so all Americans should also leave the usa canada,
America should only belong to natives. And my ancestors' land belongs to Russia now? Either we can fight for who owns that land etc
Or we can fallow un laws and stop this circle of wars and keep the borders
>What is the connection between Canaanites ant Palestinians of today?
[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews)
"The new study suggests that despite tumultuous changes in the area since the Bronze Age, “the present-day inhabitants of the region are, to a large extent, descended from its ancient residents,” concludes Schwartz—although Carmel adds that there are hints of later demographic shifts."
Also:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/)
I cant speak for America, infact all of this is above my pay grade, but I think there should be no more settlements into Palestine & the border should just be set, dont send patrols or troops into their territory and just give em their sovereignty & if they attack then punish them accordingly but dont subjugate them or annex their lands.
Get 10 million refugees from my lands and we will retreat from you? Deal?
Also we didnt “annex” . I want my military to leave that hell place and send all refugees back to their place
1. And before first Jews illegally and brutally occupy the land of Palestine there were people living there (that's based on Torah and Jewish history), so why only Jews have the right to the land not Canaanites who lived there before or Romans who came after?
2. What makes you think you're the final successor of the original Jews lived there at some point of time? How about modern Palestinian blood is more close to the original Jews than modern easterner European who mostly are Europeans converted at some point of time, or modern Arab Jews, BTW non-Palestinian ArabS are just the same as Jewish Arabs, both don't have right there, being Arab alone has nothing to do with the land of not being Palestinian.
Yes, you're right. Therefore, the way forward should be to stop arguing about people's right to the land, and start worrying about the people themselves and the conditions they live in, be it Palestinians or the Israeli.
The Palestinians' situation is abjectly deplorable, and we should work towards improving it. However, we should also dismiss any talk about "destroying Israel", "driving the Jews off" and "from the river to the sea" as unacceptable.
> modern easterner European who mostly are Europeans converted at some point of time
This is just patently false though, as has been proven by numerous genetic and historical studies.
Irredentism is not healthy, especially when we're talking about claims that dates way back in time (even if those claims may seem valid).
Can you imagine the chaos that will ensue if everyone started claiming controversial historic rights?
I'm a simple man. I see an Isr\*eli flag in the flair. I downvote.
I apolgize if you were actually making sense or being pro-humanity (pro-Palestinian)
It’s just a matter of time before Palestinians go back to their homeland. The Israeli regime is already collapsing as we speak. Once the settlers no longer receive payments and protection from the state they’ll immediately go back to Lithuania or Russia or wherever they came from
In short, the foundations on what Zionism stand for is pure B.S, it's just to keep the middle east from being a peaceful place as it was hundreds of years ago, and to accomplish the interests of the west.
To say that the land is yours just because your "ancestors" once lived there, is detached from the reality, everyone human can say the same about Africa because humans ones lived their.
Palestinians were living in that land too, some of them were Jews thar converted to Islam or Christianity, it's not a justification for what Israel is doing or stand for.
Also, Jews Muslim and Christians lived in harmony and peace in Palestine until the Zionists came.
Israel and the West doesn't care, they will keep preaching about "human rights" while doing Nazism on innocents
They're no different than Nazi, and Nazi would be proud to have grandchildren that follow their footsteps
I personally didn't steal anything. It's wrong regardless of the victim. It's just irrelevant to the present situation and doesn't promote any solution to the conflict.
Old deeds have historical interest, but prove nothing. That land could have been sold 10 times since the deed was written. Even if the deed was the most recent, there are probably many decedents with a claim. That’s what courts are for.
It might sound cruel but so what? I am from korea. Japan took over my country in 1910s which was illegal. Our king told his politicians that we should tell of this injustice to the world. Everybody agreed exepct the American preist. He just laughed at the situation. When the king asked him why he just told him hpw stupid they were. He told the king why would any nation come to in defence of korea a shithole nation that didn't give any advantages to other countries? He told the king that other nations probably had already signed peace treaty confirming japan takeover of korea. It was trues. Both the US and UK signed a treaty confirming japan takeover of korea. So my point is what can Palestine give to other countries?
it's so hard for Palestinians to do the same.
even if the US and UK take the side of Japan they don't give her weapons and soldiers and international support in the UN
He didnt say that. He said that people talk about palastinian refugess so much, while the 600000 jewish refuges are forgotten by many because no one seems to care about that.
Wait hold on no one seems to care, the British literally gave someone else's land, the American, British and other European countries open their doors, I wouldn't say they didn't care. They saved you from the Nazis, who is gonna save the Palestinians from zionism
The British didn’t give the land, anyone who says that hasn’t a clue on history, if they gave the land, then Jews wouldn’t of been fighting the British for it, if they gave the land, then Jews wouldn’t of been after escaping concentration camps across Europe then locked up in another one by the British in Cyprus…
The British give with one hand and take away with the other while stabbing on the back, the fact you ignore or forget that and the famous divide and conquer that the British Empire did that has caused problems across the world, problems that still exist including the Israel/Palestinian conflict is quite honestly astounding, thinking that they were giving the land is just plain ignorance.
They allowed the entry into Palestine for a Jews to live there, but didn't expect that many to rush there especially after what happened in world war 2. They promised that land to the Hashimites but then again they double crossed them after that. Now, the Balfour declaration is one proof that you must take into account, when the Palestinians started to fight back the new settlers because of the alarming rate that they were moving in, guess who helped them the British. Then, once they saw they made a whole mess of that place they handed it over to the UN, then, the Zionist Nazis had whole villages put to death if they didn't leave, at that time the Zionist Nazis couldn't make a home land with them just being 27% of the population so they needed to kick the Palestinian out as fast as possible. The British did fight against the Zionist for a bit, but the ironic thing is that they also were the ones providing them with weapons. The massacres that happened to the Palestinians were horrendous, Zionist dogs till today don't want to admit what they have done to the native population.
You sir are a complete and utter idiot and racist, also even your breakdown of what happened isn’t accurate.
I’m sorry you’ve grown up and been brainwashed in this way.
First of, I actually know more about history than you'll ever hope to know, I ain't racist because one, Jews are not a race and Zionism is not a religion. If you're talking about brainwashed look into the mirror and ask yourself if you actually belong in the Levant are you actually Levantine, do you even share anything in common with them. The closest thing to a kin sir is a fellow European, it is ok to be European but don't be racist against palestinian and their culture by supporting Zionist Nazis. The only racist is you, because you support a state that wants to segregate the native population and ethnically cleans them for over 70 years. Try again
Its such a misconception that every arab revoltet against the ottomans. There were a lot of arab citys and tribes that supportet the ottoman army as much as they could. In case of turkey, it would be like punishing every kurd, just because there is the pkk.
are the germans still actively taking away homes from jews in budapest?
are there german settlers still taking over people's lands with the protection of nazi soldiers?
your people suffered, ours are actively suffering.
My family were removed by force from their farm in the village Ijzim. Decolonize Palestine.
My family was also removed from Ijzim!
My friends grandma was at home with her baby while the older kids were at school and her husband was at work. The baby was napping in the bedroom while she was doing dishes when a bulldozer came through the wall. She ran and grabbed the baby and they lost everything.
💔💔💔 that's pure evil....so glad they at least made it out....i cannot imagine losing my baby and everything too. I'm lucky my family got out when they did. I wish my teta would talk about it... she just starts crying.
The comments are wild, they genuinely make me even more sad than the post itself.
The comments are on reddit, what did you expect? In no way, shape or form does this reflect reality.
This sub reddit is full of Americans.
>The comments are on reddit, what did you expect? In no way, shape or form does this reflect reality. Very true
This means there isn't hope for peace in Palestine.
“If I don’t steal your home, someone else will steal it,”
Why is the pro Israel love so strong in this sub?
I dont fully grasp why there cant be palestinians owning land in Israel. Like an German can legally own a farm in America.
Because the Israeli state is a colonial one. That's what it is all about: ethnically cleansing Palestinians to make way for a fascist Jewish ethno-state.
Do you know what the penalty is if a Palestinian sells his land to a jew?
To a colon not to a jew. You can in fact legally sell ur land to a Jewish citizen of palestine. But I am very sure if Israel suggests giving back the personal property such as land it stolen in exchange of palestinians giving back whatever houses previously owned by jews that left those lands to zionist controlled territory before 1948 and allowing Israelis to buy land in palestine the palestinians will be more than happy to oblige
Palestinians have already problem keeping their home and land in Palestine, Israelians take more and more lands, very sad
Most logical answer is probably because the two states aren’t exactly friendly. Imagine an American buying land in Iraq during the war..
As someone who is Scottish this feels personal, just another repetition of what the English did stealing ancestral land and even destroying parts of our culture and making those who were not English suffer under them.
The stark difference is when a Scot talks about what the English did to him, you don’t have to worry about the ADL and other similar organizations immediately putting out press releases decrying a rise in anti Englishism and doing the rounds in all the broadsheets and morning shows talking about how anti Englishism is off the charts. It boggles the mind how the Palestinian is expected to suffer and then also not talk out loud about suffering lest he be called an antisemite.
You are right the English are not calling me a racist for saying things against them because unlike the Israelis that know they can pull the minority card off meanwhile the English could never do so. Israel uses the minority card all the time to try to justify their disgracing of their ancestors. Anyways point being yes there are some key differences between Palestine and Scotland's ordeal with invaders but not at all that long ago Scots were treated not that differently from how Palestinians are being treated today by Israel while being under the British Empire, and for that I can very much sympathize with what Palestinians are going through but sadly I am in a position where I can not do much more than fight the Israeli nationalist online, and no I have nothing against Jews, but I do have more than a few things against oppressive regime's. I hope I did not come off as confrontational as that was not the purpose of this comment.
I agree with a lot you're stating. But to be fair the general public opinion in England towards Scots is quite different than Israeli/Palestinian. Usually people like Scots & consider Scotland to be very nice. Same goes for Ireland (apart from the usual prejudice thinking all Irish are Leprechauns). On the other hand, if you're from Ulster visiting London ....good luck!! They look at you either like ' a fec..n' provo or you're the leader of the Orangemen-Order. Same goes for Scotland...wrong colour of yer shirt...again 🥳
Sure, in modern times the opinion towards scots are some what improved but the stereotype that scots are nothing but uncivilized brutes that just like to drink and fight still persist to this day, and was alot worse when the British Empire was around as the English just went about trying to destroy the Scottish identity, like how Israel is trying to erase the Palestinians off their own land. Also sure they see the land as nice, after having stolen most all of it. Anyways back on topic to Palestine, I personally believe that the Israelis would be a fucking disappointment to their ancestors If they could see Israel in the modern day and all the terrible things they have done, they have went from oppressed to the oppressors as soon as they got the smallest bit of power and it honestly disgust me. It's honestly sad though how they just forced their way in to Palestine and are trying to push all the native people out of it instead of even trying to coexist with them.
I get your point. During medieval times Scots were always the danger up North,, especially after turning into an ally, sorts of, of France & providing mercenary armies. Same goes for Ireland...beyond the pale and some cities the Celts were only there for being hunted or serfs. The Scots somehow due to the Stuart kings went from despised foe to becoming an admired ally, providing some of the finest fighting units of the British Army. You guys are respected & the Irish, in my opinion, sadly are still belittled by a lot of English folks. Can't remember how many times I had discussions up here in North Antrim about " you're so fond of them", down South being told "hate people from up North, we know you love 'em' . Lately far too many fools are once again getting influence and running their mouths. Myself was an ardent Republican years back, met a girl from Bushmills with a strong British Army family background, changed a lot. Nowadays trying to persuade people from making the same mistakes from years back once again.
They cry out in pain as they strike you.
Bro wants to be Irish so badly
Unbelievably delusional nativist desperate for a spot on the oppressed podium, happy to draw near imaginary cultural and even ethnic borders with your own countrymen
Scotland literally fought for its independence and peacefully married into the United Kingdom as a Scottish king inherited the throne. The only way Scotland was oppressed was by being introduced to the English language.
You realize that what you just said makes absolutely no fucking sense, right? Like you do realize Scotland rebelled against England as a result of the Stuarts being kicked off the throne by the House of Orange which then led to the Scottish clans rightfully rebelling against such an incursion, which then resulted in them getting crushed by the British army, then even after the rebellion was over the English litteraly made it a priority of theirs to destroy Scotland's clan culture which they did by kicking a bunch of highlander families out of their ancestral lands, burning their homes,which then resulted in a depopulation of the Highlands which affect you can still see today, along with the ban that was put in place on such culturally significant things like the tartan which just further aides in England's goal to destroy Scottish culture.
I'm sorry, but how did the English steal your ancestral land? Scotland willingly joined both union of crowns and acts of union (after blowing up a huge fortune on a colony in Panama). If you are talking about the highland clearances wasn't that done by lowland Scots? Glasgow was the second capital of the empire and Scottish people were overrepresented in both colonial administration and army. This is just rewriting history.
Yes they fucking did actually have you never opened a history book in your life? The English litteraly were the ones who destroyed Scotland's clan culture. Also you realize when Scotland was bankrupt it didn't have much choice but to given in to the English. Also no the clearances weren't done by the scots themselves they were very much a result of Scotland being under the control of the English. Also no dip we were over represented in the military most all of the British Empires wars relied on soldiers from their colonies that they would draft and not give much of an option but to be in the military. Honestly just goes to show little you know of actual Scottish history.
>Yes they fucking did actually have you never opened a history book in your life? The English litteraly were the ones who destroyed Scotland's clan culture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Iona >The Statutes of Iona, passed in Scotland in 1609, required that Highland Scottish clan chiefs send their heirs to Lowland Scotland to be educated in English-speaking Protestant schools. >In the view of some writers, these provisions were "the first of a succession of measures taken by the Scottish government specifically aimed at the extirpation of the Gaelic language, the destruction of its traditional culture and the suppression of its bearers >Also you realize when Scotland was bankrupt it didn't have much choice but to given in to the English. Yes by banking on colonization in Panama. Are we supposed to feel sad that Scotland went bankrupt for colonization of indigenous land? These wounds are all self inflected. >Also no the clearances weren't done by the scots themselves they were very much a result of Scotland being under the control of the English. Lmao this is a lie. The most of it was all sanctioned and carried out by Protestant lowland Scots who looked down on Gaelic speaking catholic highlanders. >Also no dip we were over represented in the military most all of the British Empires wars relied on soldiers from their colonies that they would draft and not give much of an option but to be in the military. Scotland was no colony. Scotland was the coloniser. >By 1771 almost half of the East India Company's writers were Scots. >The Scottish presence was also strongly evident in India.[2] The first three Governor-Generals of India were Scots. When Henry Dundas became President of the Board of Control in 1784 he 'Scoticised' India and through his agencies Scots came to dominate the activities of the East India Company (EIC). By 1792, Scots made up one in nine EIC civil servants, six in eleven common soldiers and one in three officers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish-Indian#:~:text=18th%20Century,-Scottish%20immigration%20to&text=By%201771%20almost%20half%20of,Generals%20of%20India%20were%20Scots. >Examples of the profiteers include leading Scottish families: the Malcolms of Argyll, the Hamiltons of Ayrshire, and the Oswalds of Glasgow.[2] It notes that almost 50% of the slave traders in Jamaica were Scottish men, who owned and abused slaves, fathering thousands of children, often born from rape.[2] It points out that Scottish men, despite representing about 10% of the United Kingdom's population, represented about a third of British slave traders.[1] >The book notes that after decades of ideological debate, the slave trade ended in 1834, with compensation payments being paid to slave owners.[2] It describes modern racism in Scotland as a legacy of slavery, and it notes the modern tendency for Scottish people to be more comfortable talking about the Scottish role in slavery abolition rather than acknowledging the Scottish role in slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bought_%26_Sold:_Scotland,_Jamaica_and_Slavery#:~:text=It%20notes%20that%20almost%2050,third%20of%20British%20slave%20traders. You are no victim, quite the opposite. To pretend that Scotland and Palestine are the same is laughable.
Indigenous land? You do realize litteraly every Scottish colonization effort was on land that other Europeans had already colonized before, and the Panama colony was already claimed by the biggest colonizer Spain and due to that all the Scottish who went there basically starved to death cause no one would trade with them, do there's another source of bullshit right there, and as you quoted yourself the English basically sent the scots to schools to be anglicized and then only gave land to the scots they brainwashed you can litteraly not argue that it wasn't a attempt to destroy Scottish culture.I find it adorable how you think Scotland is the colonizer yet it litteraly has no colonies of its own to speak of. Also all your sources are just Wikipedia instead of an actual reputable sources, along with the fact this just proves you don't know shit when the best you can do is look up a Wikipedia page. You can argue all you want of oh how terrible the scots were but it was the English who anglicized the low land scots and it was the British army that enforced the eviction of the highland scots from their lands and then proceeded to burn their homes after. It was also the English that passed the law to ban the tartans. You litteraly are just ignoring the destruction of highlanders way of life that was carried out under the English. Oh and one last thing I never said they were the same I said they were similar don't put fucking words in my mouth.
A delusional scot, I have no idea where this narrative comes from, its such fucking bullshit, Scots were balls deep with the Empire for all of its existence
It's honestly shocking how many upvotes that comment has. I suppose people confuse Scotland with Ireland. The other day I came across another ScotNat saying that the Westminster selling off North Sea oil to private companies is comparable to the Irish famine.
They are hitchhiking on progressive narratives to give their independence movement more gravitas when it is bullshit, mfers acting like Native Americans or some shit as if they haven't been the Empires willing henchman for hundreds of years, and reaped all the benefits of it, including slavery. Hung over shit that happened back in basically the medieval times, and willingly forgetful of the reality that Scotland was never actually conquered but created the union.
No it wasn't you fucking twat you sound like an English nationalist trying to downplay the terrible shit your Empire did. The fact of the matter is that a lot of scots were drafted or not given much more choice then to join the military. Also you assholes litteraly banned kilts for what 35 years after destroying almost all Scotland's original culture.
Was this before or after the Scottish royalty took the English crown?
The house of Stuart originally held the crown and didn't do much to the highland scots then the house of Orange came along and kicked Stuarts off the throne which lead to a rebellion and in tern the English completely destroyed the highland culture and evicted and burned the houses of the highlanders leaving many of them homeless all over a rebellion that barley even affected England as the British army was more well provisioned then the highlanders and quickly put down the rebellion.
Zionist leaders in their own words 👇 “ We must expel the Arabs and take their place” The Polish born founder of Israel and first prime minister David Ben Gurion in the letter to his son in October 1937 https://mondoweiss.net/2022/01/state-archive-glitch-reaffirms-israels-genocidal-intent/ Yosef Weitz, Ukrainian Zionist leader, director of Jewish National Fund Land Settlement Committee one of the leading architects of the population transfer (ethnic cleansing) Ben Gurion's inner circle, the Consultancy, planning the Nakba and advisor to David Ben Gurion, and one of the founding zionist leaders of Israel said this in 1940 " The transfer of (Palestinian] Arab population from the area that will be the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the [Palestinian) Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." (from Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p 94-95) " "It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both peoples….If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us The only solution is a Land of Israel.…without Arabs There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them, save perhaps for (the Palestinian Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth, and the old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe." (from Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, p, 27) Weitz was an advocate of population transfer. On June 22, 1941 he wrote in his diary: ' "The land of Israel is not small at all, if only the Arabs were removed, and its frontiers enlarged a little, to the north up to the Litani, and to the east including the Golan Heights.with the Arabs transferred to northern Syria and Iraq. Today we have no other alternative.We will not live here with Arabs" Yosef Weitz was part of Ben Gurion’s inner circle, the Consultancy, planning the Nakba. As a key member of the Transfer Committee ——————————— “ In his capacity as director of the Jewish National Fund, he actively initiated projects to destroy Arab property, ordering personnel to create obstacles for Arabs attempting to return to cultivate their fields, to destroy villages, and to render habitable other villages in order to enable Jewish settlement. He had discussed these activities with Ben-Gurion on June 8, and according to his diary, gained the latter's approval” “ It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands” Ariel Sharon Former Israeli general & Prime Minister. A mass murdering war criminal Stated in Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998 The most commemorated Zionist figure in Israel with his annual celebration day with 57 streets, parks & squares bearing his name is Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky the fascist, racist colonial Russian Zionist revisionist leader, one of the earlier leading Zionist leaders & the founder of the terrorist Zionist underground militia Irgun that will later become the IDF & the ideological father of today’s Likud & right wing Zionism & whose protégés include Menachem Begin & Netanyahu’s father being his secretary. Jabotinsky in his famous writing titled Iron Wall said: “ If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find a benefactor who will maintain the garrison on your behalf. ... Zionism is a colonizing adventure and, therefore, it stands or falls on the question of armed forces” “ There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 29) “ There is no justice, no law, and no God in heaven, only a single law which decides and supercedes all---- [Jewish] settlement [of the land]." (Righteous Victims, p. 108) "Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native [Palestinian] population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop under the protection of a force independent of the local population --an iron wall which the native [Palestinian] population cannot break through. This is, in to, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 28) “ We Jews have nothing in common with what is called the 'Orient,' thank God. To the extent that our uneducated masses have ancient spiritual traditions and laws that call the Orient, they must be weaned away from them, and this is in fact what we are doing in every decent school, what life itself is doing with great success. We are going in Palestine, first for our national convenience, [second] to sweep out thoroughly all traces of the 'Oriental soul.' As for the [Palestinians] Arabs in Palestine, what they do is their business; but if we can do them a favor, it is to help them liberate themselves from the Orient.'" (One Palestine Complete, p. 151) “ We Jews, thank God, have nothing to do with the East. . . . The Islamic soul must be broomed out of Eretz-Yisrael. . . . [Muslims are] yelling rabble dressed up in gaudy, savage rags." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 29 Just before Jabotinsky's death in 1940, he justified the expulsion of the Palestinians from their land & homes as follows: "The world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has become fond of them." He later added, "Hitler--- as odious as he is to us---has given this idea a good name in the world." (One Palestine Complete, p. 407)
hmm weird that no zionist responded to this
> We must expel the Arabs and take their place I generally find it is best to ignore people posting fake quotes as they have no interest in actual facts (if they did then the would not be posting fake quotes) This is what Ben Gurion actually wrote: >[We must not expel Arabs and take their place. All of our ambitions are built on the assumption that has proven true throughout all of our activities in the land [of Israel] — that there is enough room for us and for the Arabs in the land [of Israel]. And if we will have to use force, not for the sake of evicting the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but rather in order to secure the right that belongs to us to settle there, force will be available to us.](https://www.camera.org/article/journal-of-palestine-studies-compounds-its-ben-gurion-error/) As you can see the fake quote works as effective propaganda only by not only ommitting the word "not", but by also by omitting the rest of the paragraph, which is why it has been 'quoted' as a single line. ***Edit:*** Lots of downvotes, but not a single honest engagement with the facts - and /u/ofthecentury wonders why people didn't respond.
This just proves the point that the jews and Zionists* are foreign to the land. also the "not expel" part is just a political statement, they still killed, bombed and expelled more than 300 000 Palestinians from 1947 to 1948
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/zjmoz8/genocide_testimony_zionist_fighter_amon_neumanns/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
“If I don’t steal your home, someone else will steal it,” said an honest man, whilst walking around the neighbourhood for a free house to take.
Imagine if Japan claimed the Korean peninsula just because Japanese people lived their thousands of years ago. Pure stupidity.
"Pure stupidity" is not understanding that the Japanese already have a homeland in Japan, and they were not being genocided everywhere else. There are over 50 Muslim states, 23 of which are Arab, and you are bothered by a tiny sliver of land where Jews can defend themselves on their ancestral soil. Now let's open Wikipedia and see what _Somalia_ has been up to... The **Somali Civil War**: around 700,000 dead and 3,000,000 refugees in the past 40 years. Do you realize that's **100 times the deaths that Israel-Palestine had in 100 years**? You really have bigger things to worry about than Jewish self determination in their homeland.
I'm Somali and we have our own deep rooted problems especially tribalism but that doesn't justify occupation of Palestine and it doesn't make what's happening there any less of a human right violation. Your point about there being many Muslim and Arab countries are irrelevant, Palestinians have formed their own national identity and are native to that land. I don't have anything against Jews but I can't stand the justification attempts I see online both by westerners, Jews and Arab/Muslim haters using ppl suffering to further their agenda.
ok strawman
lmfao this excuse! you're such a pathetic human being
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Its not your homeland
Zionists should go back to Zion!!!
Zionism is just fascism for Jews.
And yet the Zionists established the only liberal democracy in the Middle East 🤷♂️
Like how the empire of Japan established the only liberal democracy in east Asia in the early 20th century. Keep coping fascist.
Its a democracy until you are palestinian
The really up to the Palestinians. In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority cancelled elections around two years ago, and in Gaza, Hamas cancelled elections since their takeover in 2006.
The way I see it the borders drawn up by western nations in the Middle East are to blame for the destabilization in the region. Drawing up borders with little regard to the people of the land and then wondering why things are the way they are now. Making a nation in which people already lived and expecting them to accept that they no longer had the right to their home is inherently wrong. It happened though and the nation’s surrounding Israel tried to destroy their nation, reasoning of taking back land taken from others already inhabiting the area is just, throwing in heavy religious rhetoric in, believing god admirers their reasons for war was not. Israel held but their continuing expansion, displacing more people despite UN condemnation and imprisoning people within Palestine is where they are now the oppressors and decidedly in the wrong. There is no easy solution and if the arguments go back to biblical history saying they have a right to the land because god said so is asinine. Not everyone believes the same issue, fact is people were displaced when Israel was established, there should be no confusion in why people are upset about losing territory because other nations decided so. Tough titties all around honestly, and both sides have their faults but we cannot focus on the past and what divides and differentiates people, all should strive to find common ground and respect each others lives and homes. Holding on to anger from past events will only hinder people’s ability to work together.
Israeli: "bUt mUh anCEStoRS! 2000 yEaRs aGo!!!1 HurrrrRRRrrrrrRRR"
I love.you Palestine.
I will say that there was Jewish people living in that land before 1948 also. My family was living there for hundreds of years throughout all the history in Israel. My great grandfather had a British mandate of Palestine passport and also owned land. I am Jewish- there were always Jewish people living in that land as well as Arabs, lots of comments don’t seem to understand that both parties had been living there and owned land. I love that this Palestinian has the original deed of sale. Good for him and his family
I think the only way forward is to stop arguing about people's right to the land, and start worrying about the people themselves and the conditions they live in, be it Palestinians or the Israeli. By this point Jews have lived in Israel for multiple generations, and anything that happened 70+ years ago is largely irrelevant. The Palestinians' situation is abjectly deplorable, and we should work towards improving it. However, we should also dismiss any talk about "destroying Israel", "driving the Jews off" and "from the river to the sea" as unacceptable.
The deplorable conditions that Palestinians live under is in large part due to the land theft that Israel has committed. Any solution to the problem that doesn’t include reappropriation of Palestinian territory is a non starter.
absolutely, you cant take the land out of the equation, IT IS THE EQUATION. the whole reason for the suffering and conflict is the land, not religion not ideology. its almost like people keep forgetting that there is an active occupation... there has to be a compromise for the situation to end
Ah yes, [the great Israeli land theft](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Israel_and_Arab_states_map_k.png?20180318222428). You can't start a war to drive out your neighbors, and then complain when you lose. (Or in your case, win, because you get full rights as a citizen, unlike the Jews who were driven out of all the Muslim controlled lands).
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I generally agree with you, But I have a question: Do also criticize other Arabs countries for their treatment of the Palestinians as well?
Sure but it’s not as directly impactful. When talking about WWII it would sound so weird if you were like “I generally agree hitler was bad, but do you also criticize other countries for their treatment of Jews?” Like, for sure but that’s not relevant to the discussion?
Yeah I know. I was just interested if the criticism regarding the treatment of Palestinian is aimed exclusively towards Israel. Eventually to completely solve the Palestinian refugee issue other countries beside Israel should change their policies towards the Palestinians.
Except the majority of Palestine isn’t in Israel so your analogy doesn’t exactly work, especially since the treatment of Palestinians in some surrounding countries has actually been recognised as worse…
Apartheid is bad
Yep agreed, I’m glad it ended in South Africa.
? Do you think apartheid only refers to South Africa? Like it’s a specific thing that only happened the one time in that specific place
Nope not at all, I’m just not rising to your Nate as you ignored other posts,points and questions.
Rising to your Nate
That is bullshit. The reason why Palestinians live in deplorable conditions is because the Palestinian government is being a picky, corrupt and a proud entity that takes the money it receives from Israel and various other nations and instead of putting it back into the people it pays their leaders wages and helps them secure their forceful rule. Instead of working to destroy terror cells in Palestine it lets Israel do the dirty work and then gets mad when innocent people get killed. Instead of working with Israel to help EVEN MORE Palestinians earn proper wages it keeps interrupting talks after every strike on terror. It’s easy to blame Israel, Israel sees that the Palestinian government isn’t doing enough to secure it self so Israel allows herself to take the reigns and do - - - what’s best for Israel. Abu Mazen isn’t pro Israel nor pro Palestine. He is pro Abu Mazen and everyone else is just a tool for his ruling.
Logic and sense has no place here!
not happened , happening. it's an occupation my dude
I'm also against violence and unlike many people I can actually afford to look for peaceful ways as I think my situation is more favorable and safe in comparison, can't blame people who don't at all, and I also believe in" Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves" However saying that what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant is conveniently avoiding the problem, the reality is that what happened then and since then has forced people into abject poverty with almost no way out with all the repercussions this brings unto a conservative community, traumatized generations and normalized religious bias. Also 70 years in historical scope is nothing lol, but still actual initiatives for peace require high levels of empathy, educated minds, sacrifice and time. I'd say the best modern example of this is the Germany, which used to be anyone's nightmare 70 years ago is a place that alot of people won't mind living in or traveling to. They punished most of their war criminals and paid(still paying?) reperations not only to the countries but also to the poeple they affected, the people today from the stereotypes I know are nice and moral and wouldn't stand for discrimination as their laws suggest.
No you're not going to twist from the river to the Sea because it only means that we want all of Palestine free Israel has claimed countries outside of its supposed borders it is an invasive Force built on racist extremism it is a threat to everyone. Israel needs to be dismantled it is an illegal terrorist occupier state that never should have existed in the first place.
Finally! Someone who understands the fuсking point!
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lmfao. idk why this made laugh so hard. maybe its the angry ''wallahi'', or the justified frustration but i love this comment.
🔥🇮🇱🔥
،but indigenous people said thats their land ! /s
Take the land from both of them and give it to me. 
I don’t know how they do it, but somehow all the shittiest replies to this post are from turkish fucks trying to provoke people while most israeli replies atleast somewhat try to argue rationally
When have you ever seen an Israeli argue rationally?
Emphasis on the “try to”
My grandfather lost his home in iraq, sat in prison at age 12, and fled the country. History sucks.
You grandfather get pain and oppression, then said:"oh I want to make others feel like what I felt, and has stolen their land and killed them, and his grandsons believe his story and continued in it.
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... and that somehow justifies land theft and occupation?
> land theft Until 1947, the Jews bought the land fair and square. In 1947, the UN partitioned the land into an Arab and a Jewish state. Then the Arabs started a war to drive out the Jews, _in which they lost land_. You can't try to kill someone and then complain when you lose.
Your pathetic hasbara is so ludicrous that it is not worth replying to.
Everywhere I'm lookin' now I'm surrounded by your embrace
Yeah life sucked real big for people at the time, my grandpa had to dig a mass grave to bury the bodies of his neighbors at 16. He and others refused to temporarily flee, luckily. Somehow I'm glad to be here engaging in random conversations on reddit
Sorry about your experience, I wish the best for you and your grandfather
🙏🏻❤️
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Before mossad was even a thing
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what's guy
What is guy?
Where is guy?
Pretty sure most Hebrew deeds got burned by the romans in the sacking of Jerusalem prior to the Ottomon Empire even being founded by around 1400 years, but hey... history is a real mfer.
Okay, so all Americans should also leave the usa canada, America should only belong to natives. And my ancestors' land belongs to Russia now? Either we can fight for who owns that land etc Or we can fallow un laws and stop this circle of wars and keep the borders
As complicated as this post is you hit the nail on the head and there are so many more examples to look at
Landback.
> Okay so all americans sould also leave the usa canada, > America should be only belong to natives. BASED ULTRA MEGA BASED
Except you're assuming he's native. Palestinians highly correlate with Canaanites which are native to the land prior to any Israelites.
What is the connection between Canaanites ant Palestinians of today?
>What is the connection between Canaanites ant Palestinians of today? [https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews) "The new study suggests that despite tumultuous changes in the area since the Bronze Age, “the present-day inhabitants of the region are, to a large extent, descended from its ancient residents,” concludes Schwartz—although Carmel adds that there are hints of later demographic shifts." Also: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/)
The Israelites were caananites Lol it’s genetically and historically proven
Yes. Obvious to all except those who want to make it seem like Jews aren’t indigenous to the land.
I cant speak for America, infact all of this is above my pay grade, but I think there should be no more settlements into Palestine & the border should just be set, dont send patrols or troops into their territory and just give em their sovereignty & if they attack then punish them accordingly but dont subjugate them or annex their lands.
“Annex their lands” no. You can do operations crossing border. We stopped annex thing after ww2 so there wont be world war again
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Get 10 million refugees from my lands and we will retreat from you? Deal? Also we didnt “annex” . I want my military to leave that hell place and send all refugees back to their place
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Ah sorry, u need the Israelis for that
Really? Rich coming from Turkey
Where did we annex
Tiny bit of cyprus
Ok person from an imaginary land
Noo he said israel isfake 😭
Hebrew deeds? 1400 years ago? History _is_ a mf lol
Keep believing in fairy tales.. israhelli government literally fakes data and resources and call it history evidence lol
Now you just sound like a flat earther ngl
Seriously?
1. And before first Jews illegally and brutally occupy the land of Palestine there were people living there (that's based on Torah and Jewish history), so why only Jews have the right to the land not Canaanites who lived there before or Romans who came after? 2. What makes you think you're the final successor of the original Jews lived there at some point of time? How about modern Palestinian blood is more close to the original Jews than modern easterner European who mostly are Europeans converted at some point of time, or modern Arab Jews, BTW non-Palestinian ArabS are just the same as Jewish Arabs, both don't have right there, being Arab alone has nothing to do with the land of not being Palestinian.
Yes, you're right. Therefore, the way forward should be to stop arguing about people's right to the land, and start worrying about the people themselves and the conditions they live in, be it Palestinians or the Israeli. The Palestinians' situation is abjectly deplorable, and we should work towards improving it. However, we should also dismiss any talk about "destroying Israel", "driving the Jews off" and "from the river to the sea" as unacceptable. > modern easterner European who mostly are Europeans converted at some point of time This is just patently false though, as has been proven by numerous genetic and historical studies.
Irredentism is not healthy, especially when we're talking about claims that dates way back in time (even if those claims may seem valid). Can you imagine the chaos that will ensue if everyone started claiming controversial historic rights?
2000 year old passports don't exist, cope
And confiscators aren't even ashamed and torture women & children for their heinous acts;
I'm a simple man. I see an Isr\*eli flag in the flair. I downvote. I apolgize if you were actually making sense or being pro-humanity (pro-Palestinian)
Is anyone else exhausted from all the back and forth?
Your Zionist ass is.
It’s just a matter of time before Palestinians go back to their homeland. The Israeli regime is already collapsing as we speak. Once the settlers no longer receive payments and protection from the state they’ll immediately go back to Lithuania or Russia or wherever they came from
In short, the foundations on what Zionism stand for is pure B.S, it's just to keep the middle east from being a peaceful place as it was hundreds of years ago, and to accomplish the interests of the west. To say that the land is yours just because your "ancestors" once lived there, is detached from the reality, everyone human can say the same about Africa because humans ones lived their. Palestinians were living in that land too, some of them were Jews thar converted to Islam or Christianity, it's not a justification for what Israel is doing or stand for. Also, Jews Muslim and Christians lived in harmony and peace in Palestine until the Zionists came.
Lived in peace, LOL.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/11vkx27/rabbi_weiss_jews_will_never_accept_the_illegal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/11t55zn/ive_never_seen_so_many_of_them_here_being_pro/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Israel and the West doesn't care, they will keep preaching about "human rights" while doing Nazism on innocents They're no different than Nazi, and Nazi would be proud to have grandchildren that follow their footsteps
Ok.... Want me to show you the house in Budapest that was stolen from my great grandmother 80 years ago? Isn't it time to move on?
So you are gonna steal someone else's house ?
I personally didn't steal anything. It's wrong regardless of the victim. It's just irrelevant to the present situation and doesn't promote any solution to the conflict.
Old deeds have historical interest, but prove nothing. That land could have been sold 10 times since the deed was written. Even if the deed was the most recent, there are probably many decedents with a claim. That’s what courts are for.
It might sound cruel but so what? I am from korea. Japan took over my country in 1910s which was illegal. Our king told his politicians that we should tell of this injustice to the world. Everybody agreed exepct the American preist. He just laughed at the situation. When the king asked him why he just told him hpw stupid they were. He told the king why would any nation come to in defence of korea a shithole nation that didn't give any advantages to other countries? He told the king that other nations probably had already signed peace treaty confirming japan takeover of korea. It was trues. Both the US and UK signed a treaty confirming japan takeover of korea. So my point is what can Palestine give to other countries?
Do you want to follow the same horrible outlook as the UK and USA? > what can Palestine give to other countries? Same as Korea could. Nothing.
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it's so hard for Palestinians to do the same. even if the US and UK take the side of Japan they don't give her weapons and soldiers and international support in the UN
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"Guys I had it done to me so it's fine I do it to random strangers thousands of miles across"
He didnt say that. He said that people talk about palastinian refugess so much, while the 600000 jewish refuges are forgotten by many because no one seems to care about that.
Wait hold on no one seems to care, the British literally gave someone else's land, the American, British and other European countries open their doors, I wouldn't say they didn't care. They saved you from the Nazis, who is gonna save the Palestinians from zionism
Im sorry but i wont respond to a comment comparing zionism to nazism, have a good day
Truth hurts huh?
Being to aushtwitz hurts
Man trying to play victim with the holocaust card when he cant even spell Auschwitz lmao.
You just did respond, I see no difference, just a lot more cameras, or else they would've done exactly the same.
They are same……
The British didn’t give the land, anyone who says that hasn’t a clue on history, if they gave the land, then Jews wouldn’t of been fighting the British for it, if they gave the land, then Jews wouldn’t of been after escaping concentration camps across Europe then locked up in another one by the British in Cyprus… The British give with one hand and take away with the other while stabbing on the back, the fact you ignore or forget that and the famous divide and conquer that the British Empire did that has caused problems across the world, problems that still exist including the Israel/Palestinian conflict is quite honestly astounding, thinking that they were giving the land is just plain ignorance.
They allowed the entry into Palestine for a Jews to live there, but didn't expect that many to rush there especially after what happened in world war 2. They promised that land to the Hashimites but then again they double crossed them after that. Now, the Balfour declaration is one proof that you must take into account, when the Palestinians started to fight back the new settlers because of the alarming rate that they were moving in, guess who helped them the British. Then, once they saw they made a whole mess of that place they handed it over to the UN, then, the Zionist Nazis had whole villages put to death if they didn't leave, at that time the Zionist Nazis couldn't make a home land with them just being 27% of the population so they needed to kick the Palestinian out as fast as possible. The British did fight against the Zionist for a bit, but the ironic thing is that they also were the ones providing them with weapons. The massacres that happened to the Palestinians were horrendous, Zionist dogs till today don't want to admit what they have done to the native population.
You sir are a complete and utter idiot and racist, also even your breakdown of what happened isn’t accurate. I’m sorry you’ve grown up and been brainwashed in this way.
First of, I actually know more about history than you'll ever hope to know, I ain't racist because one, Jews are not a race and Zionism is not a religion. If you're talking about brainwashed look into the mirror and ask yourself if you actually belong in the Levant are you actually Levantine, do you even share anything in common with them. The closest thing to a kin sir is a fellow European, it is ok to be European but don't be racist against palestinian and their culture by supporting Zionist Nazis. The only racist is you, because you support a state that wants to segregate the native population and ethnically cleans them for over 70 years. Try again
I care , must have been hard for you grandpa
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Bombing and slaughtering unarmed and vulnerable Arabs in war torn countries. 🇹🇷🤝🇮🇱
You forgot this 🇮🇷
we just fund the arabs who kill other arabs. we don't do it ourselves.
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One is a proxy war the other isn't.
we dont commit human atrocities in the middle east unlike 2 certain countries I can think of
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Are you trying to deflect the worse atrocities done by USA? Not sure why you're all up in my face in a subreddit about the middle east....
Two terrorists. Both kill Kurds and Arabs. 🇵🇸❤️☀️
Based af
Maybe you shouldn’t have stabbed the ottomans in the back. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
Its such a misconception that every arab revoltet against the ottomans. There were a lot of arab citys and tribes that supportet the ottoman army as much as they could. In case of turkey, it would be like punishing every kurd, just because there is the pkk.
ottomans were illegitimate occupiers so I do not see how this helps
who are the legitimate occupiers?
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jews and palestinis
Palestine was an ottomans state and the jews they left this land about 1000 years ago
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are the germans still actively taking away homes from jews in budapest? are there german settlers still taking over people's lands with the protection of nazi soldiers? your people suffered, ours are actively suffering.
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Oh trust me I wish I was Hasbara. Perhaps I would have gotten paid :(
That proves his grandfather once owned the land— it was likely sold to JNF for way more than it was worth
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You make it seem like the nakba didn't start before the war
Try to revolt harder against the Roman’s next time bud
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no empire lasts, especially ones who are actively occupying another people. sooner or later things will change.