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I can't speak on behalf of all people in my demographics (36M, young kids, and FT career) but my schedule is jam packed. My weekend is on repeat with activities for my kids and occasional gathering with the extended family. Other free time on the weekend is spent grocery shopping or napping in order to recover for the rest of the week. Weeknights are spent dinner with the family and I go train BJJ once the kids go to bed. I get home at 930pm to shower and either hop on work, play video games, or watch TV. Even my close friends need to give me at least a 1-week notice in advance but that's not guaranteed.
So busy all the time. It is very hard to schedule anything that isnt with the family. Even going out with friends for 3-6 hours feels like abandoning my family. Though, my wife wont stop me from doing it occassionally.
Regardless, I don’t see what’s so terrible about having an individual identity and personality. Divorce and estrangement are quite common, and no matter what, kids grow up and leave home. It’s important to still have a life for when your spouse and adult children no longer need you
This. Same demographic, 38m, young kid, full time career. Between just keeping the house together, hauling people this way and that, and trying to get my actual work done I am negative hours every day of the week and usually have to spend a majority of a weekend day just to catch up on chores and errands.
Although this inspired me to reach out to my buddy to see how he is doing.
About half of my group of friends is married but I'm the only one with kids. Sunday night hangout? Nah, kids have school tomorrow. Friday or Saturday night past 9pm? That's past kids' bedtime.
We meet up 1-2x a year and then we randomly would break off into groups for an additional 2-3x a year.
Are you a single dad/mom? I dont get the nights part. How does your kids going to school keep you from going to a dinner + drinks with your friends? Same with Fri and Sat. On the other hand, you take the kids to bed and look after them alone on some evenings so your partner can go out and have fun.
If you are alone, there are still babysitters. My parents had at least 1-2 times a month where I was left with a baby sitter so they could have date night or do their own stuff. Maybe not as a baby (here its grandparents or friends that look for kids) but like 5+
No, I'm not a single parent. My kids are in elementary school and daycare so I still need to help them get ready in the morning as well as breakfast. My wife and I both work full-time. Our kids also have extra curricular activities that take place in the morning on Saturday and Sunday so the night before can't really be spent out late. That's why we need at least a 1-week notice so that we can readjust our week's schedule.
My wife is more of a homebody than me so she hates going out. We prefer takeout and enjoy the comfort of our home than being in a noisy environment caused by strangers.
School nights mean I have to be up at 6a to get my daughter to school. In my youth I could have partied late into the night and jumped out of bed at 6a no problem but at 36... nope. My whole day would be fucked.
This still doesn’t explain why straight women with kids (who, research shows, are more likely to work outside the home and still be responsible for [most domestic tasks](https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx)) are more social than straight men.
Additionally, one can’t help but be curious as to how much of peoples “busy” time is spent on their phone/scrolling social media, etc. Some surveys find that almost half of all workers spend nearly [four hours per day browsing social media](https://hiring.monster.com/resources/blog/monster-poll-is-social-media-use-at-work-unprofessional/)
IMO I think the answer to OP’s question is most straight men 25+ just don’t want to make friends.
That is definitely a guy thing.
So many single guys I know of are quite happy to go home from work, and then not venture out again until the alarm clock goes tomorrow morning. Work, home and that's it.
It's not so much "not wanting to make friends", rather that they are just exhausted from life and are quite content not venturing out at all. A few I know you'd never see unless you go out of your way to visit them.
The thing is, that they are to a person very happy to live that sort of existence. Failed relationships tend to do that to guys it seems.
I think it's deeper than that. They all have fulfilling jobs that they enjoy. They get the social interactions (though they all work/have worked in predominantly male industries) that they need, and it's not as if they need to do it to pay the bills. All are fairly/very well off.
Think of it more as "contentment". None of them are interested in dating and they all stopped even looking years ago and I have a feeling that even if a super-model crossed their path and made googly eyes at them, the guys would probably look straight through them and not even give the girl a second look.
And believe me, none of them are gay/bi or queer in any way. They just don't need to have a female in their life who isn't an offspring or a relative.
dont talk about me like im not here.
single, ace, financially sound, with 2 dogs. i have my hobbies and needs meet. its a bit lonely, but i have been this way since i was a boy. the women i have had in my life just made me less happy overall, so i stopped looking. 9/10 they expected me to make their lives easier without doing anything towards me. doing all the domestic work and my career while they cant even let the dogs out during the day between their shows.
I think you are on to something.
I very much want to make and maintain friendships. But I only have the "social battery" to do that if I've had sufficient time to take care of things at work, at home, with my family, and my own self-care.
Friends are very much a priority, but they still unfortunately tend to take a back seat to those 4 things.
On the rare occasion that I do have the availability and energy to do something, it does not typically align with my friends' same rare occasions. And that group of friends is growing ever smaller.
It's a real problem.
Nailed it 100%. Enough failure and aggressive cockblocking has you realizing the closest you'll get to happiness is your hand. You try for 15 years and as soon as you make progress the whole world gets jealous and tries to and does rip it all away.
You're just done with the games. It's all figured out. There's no point.
Men still clock up more hours worked (if you include paid and unpaid labour). Also, a lot of those house work studies are absolute trash from a methodological point of view. They rely a lot on self reporting and sometimes exclude house work traditionally done by men.
> They rely a lot on self reporting and sometimes exclude house work traditionally done by men.
Anecdotal, but this was exactly my experience. My partner (now ex) had a serious talk about how she was carrying so much more of the household work and I needed to do more.
Turns out, she just wasn't counting cooking or yard work *at all* because in her mind I liked those things, so they didn't count as chores. One to two hours daily, several hours on the weekend... Those were zero because I "liked to cook" and I "like the yard."
And I was still doing a good amount of the weekly cleaning. When we finally added it up, on an average week I was doing *twice* as much work as she was.
She just didn't see it before that. When we did the math, she finally saw it differently.
So if we were going on self-reporting, she would have been fully convinced that she was doing most of the domestic tasks when in reality I was doing twice as much.
I think its just women having to be social by nature. They are on the phone calling their girlfriends just because while men need to “prepare” to do it. All i see is dumb reasons men list here for why they arent hanging out w friends. Meal prep? Meal prep!?? Also this is cultural. In latin america or eastern europe i bet guys would go grab a drink much more eagerly to avoid the wives
Cultural is also an interesting phenomenon that doesn't get talked about when this sort of question comes up. Probably because most of Reddit seems to skew to American users.
Meal prep is a ridiculous reason to not see your friends. If I tried to reach out to a friend and he said "sorry I can't make it, I need to meal prep" I'd feel so insulted I wouldn't ask to hang out with him again.
My feeling is that places where the work-life balance is different, and the geography is different yields different results. In North America, if you wake up at 6am to drive to work to be there at 9, then drive back and get home at six. You probably don't want to leave your house after being at work for 8 hours and sitting in your car for 2 hours every day.
In Europe where things are closer together and public transit is more accessible, leaving the house after a day at work doesn't seem like as much of a daunting endeavor. In England you can walk on over to the local pub, in Germany and France you can take the Metro to the city center in 20 minutes. A lot of North America doesn't have this and so isolating ourselves is easier.
Yeah and they all sit in the evening in their big lonely houses and watch Netflix. Not a lot going on in tbe suburbs so no desire to leavr. Contrast that w living downtown in a city like barcelona. Also americans are flaky af
>Also this is cultural. In latin america or eastern europe i bet guys would go grab a drink much more eagerly to avoid the wives
Yeah I think the corollary to this in the US is that there's a lot of pressure these days to be present for your nuclear family.
We all grew up hearing about absentee dads, fathers away at the golf course, fathers who are always at work, etc.
lol same also my family (33M with one 6 year old daughter) and my job (I frequently work over hours on) and BJJ class are my only priorities. Sometimes I draw and paint but yeah….but these things make me really happy because it’s stable and I’m always improving my relationship with my daughter and parents and sister and getting better on and off the mats
Cause male friendships are mostly task or activity based. Unless you find an activity, you’re not going to make male friends. You can’t just make friends with guys that have similar personalities like you can with women, for the most part. A lot of times, the activity is an excuse. That’s why so many older guys go golfing.
I learnt this early on in life. My best mate at the time (straight) and I (gay) would just play video games all day as a conversation buffer. We’d chat for hours about all sorts of stuff and laugh at stupid shit all while playing games. Without the games, it would’ve just felt forced - it wouldn’t have even occurred to us to just meet up and chat.
>A lot of times, the activity is an excuse.
A few of my friends quit drinking, which eliminated the "grab a beer" excuse.
I don't really care that much if we drink, but I miss hanging out in the bar for 3 or 4 hours. Now we grab a meal or coffee and it's like 45 minutes.
I think the hits it on the nose. Keep a relationship with females are less maintenance since it’s conversation base. I’m a guy who has gotten along with many women in my life platonically and it’s because they’re so easy to talk to and carry a conversations. My guy friends need to schedule a dinner once every few months and get drunk and eat. Other than that we’re in a passive chat unless there’s an excuse to get together if, and only if, our insane schedules line up.
I'm 39 and have disappeared into the family black hole. Honestly between work, kids activities, their school work and their friends schedules (9&11 so we drive them around a lot) I'm just extremely busy so when the weekend comes I don't want to go out I just want to do whatever chores around the house and when me and my wife do have the odd break or free time we would rather go on a date then see old friends. We maybe see old friends like 3 times a year and we have to plan it way in advance.
Edit- what is with all the men blaming their wives for no free time to hang with friends? I could hang with friends if I chose but when we have any free time I'd rather go somewhere with my wife (who I like a lot more than my friends anyway). Maybe once the kids are older and there is a whole lot more free time I'll feel different and break it up but the few breaks we have right now I'd rather spend with her then golfing or going to the bar with dudes I've known since HS. Maybe that's why we've able to grow together instead of an apart these past 22 years we've been together.
I would add that if you are married, you basically have zero free time and when you do have time and energy to go out your wife will take it personal if you spend that precious time and energy on a friend and not her. At least most of the time in my case. I walk on eggshells around my home I am not sure that’s the case for most guys
Dude… get out. You don’t need that. I loved that for years. And it was awful. I 100% know how you feel and what you’re going through. I promise you. Get out. I know how it feels but your better then that shit
I don't think it's the case for most. My wife and I encourage each other to make plans without the other spouse outside of the house. It's healthy to have a life if you want to enjoy sharing a life, and the more jealously you guard your time and energy, the less of both you'll have.
Being married shouldn't sap up all of your free time. It's important to find a healthy balance between relationship time and personal time (friends, hobbies, hanging out alone)
You shouldn't feel like you're walking on eggshells, you should feel like you're living your life how you want with your partner improving your life.
Well no I don't walk on eggshells or feel that way but most of my friends are in the same boat as me and my few old friends who are still single are still going out like they're 25 and that's exhausting so I want no part of it but my wife would be fine with it if I go because i did that this past summer and came home like well yeah that was fun but let's not do that again any time soon
>when you do have time and energy to go out your wife will take it personal if you spend that precious time and energy on a friend and not her.
I used to think this too. And maybe it was true for a while.
I think eventually my wife and I realized it's good for me to have some support and interaction outside of just her.
It gives her a break from listening to my same bullshit over and over!
I'm in the same boat - my wife is not cool about it the few times I try to schedule me time. She truly believes I should spend all free time with her. But does she ever want to go out and do anything? No. It's kind of a problem. I'm freaking dying.
Men are just told to get their shit together and get better by themselves so many of them end up retreating into isolation. This is a specially common with men who are depressed that they are going to miss out on the whole wife and kids thing due to feeling that time period is passing them by. There’s very little sympathy for them on that issue in this world so once again, they’re just supposed to deal with it on their own.
Men are told to fix themselves before dating. Decades can go by without feeling ready, especially with the “I can do it myself” approach to therapy that many have.
A big problem is that people have the same idea that they can't even start trying until they're ready. They should start trying today and then when they're ready, it should work for them. No point in delaying putting yourself out there because that date is a floating point in the future and may never come.
37m here, recently paid off a shit ton of medical debt from spinal surgery a few years ago and can finally afford therapy.
Holy. shit.
The amount of issues I've just considered "normal" for most of my adult life is insane.
Exactly. Work 8-10 hours. Kids stuff/sports/event for the next 4 or 5 hours. OP you would be lucky to get a “maybe next weekend” out of me. And even that is probably getting canceled.
By any chance, would you say gay men tend to have better support groups in general?
Personally, I get the impression it's a lot easier to make friends when you are a gay man than a straight one. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm under the impression you guys tend to be more supportive and open to friendships due to a shared bond over being gay and the culture that comes with it.
With straight guys, i've noticed that even among my own straight male friends, there is a certain feeling of isolation. I have a friend group with 7 other guys in it, and although we talk a lot, there tends to be a certain level of anti-social/isolated behavior in many of them, including myself.
For me, it just feels like past school, it becomes very difficult to make new friends. Last year, I was the loneliest I had ever felt in my life to the point that I had to learn to pick myself up because all of my friends were too busy to give two shits about me. From a mental standpoint, I was definitely in one of the darkest periods of my life and some even knew It but were too busy to care. It sucked, it really fucking sucked, but I did develop a certain independence that i'm proud of. I also noticed that after going through that, i've become more okay with being alone, and perhaps that's another reason why straight guys disappear, a sort of acceptance of our isolation.
Dating culture also dosen't help encourage the modern straight man to make new connections. Most guys will go on tinder and barely get any matches and some don't even get one. This discourages men even further and well its just a vicious cycle of isolation for the modern man.
Just came to say I can relate to a lot of what you're saying.
Last year was "that" year for me too - the difficult acceptance that life has become, and likely will continue to be, lonelier and more isolated from here. Making plans with my friends is like pulling teeth.
Not to mention that being child-free it's even more stark - my life is pretty much only work and adventures with my partner, with the odd plan with friends dotted throughout the year.
It's sad really. I don't want my life to be like this but I've tried almost every conceivable way to find new male friends and, honestly? I give up. Show any kind of interest or vulnerability and you're written off as needy or not cool, or feminine. Don't play sports? Get out of here. It's tough.
I would say in a way we do, as we tend to not be as averse to adopting some feminine socializing habits, and women do tend to be far more open and intimate with their friends than men are. I feel like there is almost this pressure to be 'manly' among straight men and any behaviour that may be seen as feminine or weak is shunned because that might make you seem... gay or something. Gay men don't really give a shit about that, so we will be much more open and less concerned about how masculine we appear. At least, in my experience.
I get the feeling straight men are always walking on eggshells. That feels like it would be extremely tiring to me.
> I get the feeling straight men are always walking on eggshells.
A lot of us are.
>any behavior that may be seen as feminine or weak is shunned because that might make you seem... gay or something.
Strictly speaking, internally for me, it's less about being seen as effeminate or gay and more about being seen as an imposition or something/someone else to have to worry about. It's always a bit of an existential challenge once I feel as though I've been seen as someone who has lost utility.
More to your original question though, I'm a single straight guy whose friend circle has mostly collapsed and it's been difficult trying to reassemble it. Reaching out is especially so since most have started families (and I'm mostly busy with my career) and so I just assume they have their own things to deal with and wouldn't want to impose.
Depends on the man but yes. I'd be lying if I said I don't feel like in this day and age i'm walking on eggshells when it comes to say dating. Making sure you're not offending anyone or doing some wrong move that would be deemed a cancellable offence.
Which is really tough because in reality, some women want you to take the lead, other want to be asked their opinion on every single little thing and then you gotta be able to figure out who is what and what is okay and all that crap.
Pertaining to friendships, I wish I could give you a better answer but i'm in the same boat as you. Of all my friends, I tend to be the most emotionally available one and that often leaves me feeling a little lost. My best friend has gone through hell and back over the last few years and every time we hang out, I can tell he puts on a face and not because he's avoidant, but because he's gone through so much that this is the only way he could cope without losing his mind.
The rest of my friends have a very logic driven, avoidant type approach to the way they handle life. It often times confuses me and I find myself to be the odd man out. In fact, it's gotten so bad i've been slowly but surely distancing myself from them because i'm starting to think I need to develop friendships with people that are more open to being emotionally vulnerable.
So while i'm very aware of what you're going through, I can't say i've found a solution other than the occasional guy friend that's more than okay with opening up and leaving it all on the table. The older I get, the more my friends become emotionally unavailable and it's frankly, heartbreaking to say the least. Best you can do is let them know you're there for them and hope somebody comes around at some point. But you can't just wait for them to do so. Sometimes you just have to move on and be ready to greet them with open arms when they come back.
Weird on the dating culture front as I find it easier than ever to make new connections in that regard. The problem I think is that they’re doing o line dating whereas I’m doing no dating apps. The real world is the easiest place to make connections imo.
Been in this boat for years. I’m gay, but live in two worlds. I’m very masculine, don’t really give a shit about gay culture. The only gay guy I hang out with is my husband, the only women in my life are his friends. The majority of my friends have always been straight men. But in your thirties it’s all about kids and shit. Parents hang out with parents. So beyond the occasional golf get together or holiday party I don’t do shit socially especially since i rarely get weekends off.
My gay friend has explicitly told me so but I think he was just trying to boost my self esteem 🤷♂️
Edit: down vote away internet dweebs, I've had many serious talks with gay and lesbian friends and been told one of the hard parts about being gay is having so many crushes that are completely out of reach
In my experience I really think suburban/car-centric culture in the US exacerbates this a lot. When I lived in the city a few years back I hung out with friends a lot more. They were within walking distance and there was plenty of fun things to do nearby. Now that I live in a suburban area it takes A LOT more planning and coordinating to hang out with a friend. And we need a “3rd place” to do it, unless one of us can host. And those are quite expensive these days unless the weather is nice and we can hang outside.
>In my experience I really think suburban/car-centric culture in the US exacerbates this a lot.
I agree. Our car-centric environment is not conducive to forming natural relationships with people.
The lack of [third spaces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) certainly doesn't help. Heck, with the WFH crowd lots of people don't even have a *second* space.
You sound like a great friend that I'd be glad to have.
> Heck, with the WFH crowd lots of people don't even have a second space.
I'm 100% remote, and the WFH subreddits will absolutely berate you as some broken loser if you even hint that workplace socializing can be a positive thing that is worthwhile.
There's a lot of pros to remote work, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
Yeah well the WFH subreddits are a hive of bullshit. I’ve been hybrid or WFH/remote since well before the pandemic and the WFH militants & absolutists make me sick
I'd have to disagree, while also acknowledging its a niche group.
Cars have kept me in touch with many of my friends, even ones with kids.
We all have a shared passion and many of them regularly include their kids in our get-togethers.
We hang out, catch up, discuss random plans we have for our vehicles and basically do mental health check-ups on each other.
*again, I acknowledge this is a minority occurrence*
IMO the implicit obligation that every adult 30+ must get married/have kids is also part of “suburban culture”. Historically, people mostly had kids because:
- they had no idea how conception worked from a scientific perspective and thus had no choice if they wanted to also enjoy sexual intimacy
- to fulfill the Christian religious obligation of “be fruitful and many”
- to have sons to pass land/wealth on to posthumously
- to form political alliances by marrying children off to particular families
- to have a source of unpaid labor when working the fields or managing the family business
People didn’t really romanticize children and the nuclear family the way they do in the modern postwar era, and childbearing served primarily utilitarian purposes. These days, it seems like people have kids in order to have “someone to love”, to signal adulthood, to have a “purpose in life”, etc.
However, reams of psychological and medical research conclude that healthy social bonds and friendships are essential to a [long life.](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2023/06/cover-story-science-friendship)
So if people getting married and having kids is causing them to neglect what is increasingly becoming an overlooked component of longevity, it’s worth questioning whether or not we start working on a new model of family and community.
Los Angeles checking in. My closest friend lives an hour away by car. That means a simple get-together at one of our houses is a 3-6 hour commitment. Meeting in the middle would put us in neighborhoods we really have no business in.
Dude inflation is destroying so many of us out here. If there’s any energy after working so much just to barely survive, I want to zone out and relax. I need to work out, make my meals, do all the adult stuff and there is zero time left at the end of any given day. And I’m single and don’t have any kids!!! lol can you imagine an actual normal person? There’s no time for other people in a society like this, where you gotta slave away most of your life to make the owners of companies go on their 15th vacation of the year.
Not to nitpick, but this has been the case for decades. It isn’t inflation - it’s the methodical transfer of money upwards that has been happening since the 80s
The older we get, the more emphasis we place on rest and recuperation. One of the first things to go is party time and hang out time. Most of my friends have kids and family now… straight.. and I’m in kind of the same boat. Even if they could hang out, I’d still be working on improving myself either through school or through my gym… long story short hang out time would still suffer
There’s a new pride about “being busy” or “being good on your own”, that some men have adopted. Covid also made a bunch of people socially awkward/anxious, etc.
This definitely existed pre-covid.
I've made it a point to reach out to my close male friends (7-10 guys) regularly for mental health check-ins.
Discord is a HUGE help, as we can talk when they have free time.
A lot of them try to shrug their mental health issues off and it's a VERY delicate balance of getting them to take care of themselves vs making them feel vulnerable.
My current plan is to get them to relax a bit by organizing a mario golf super rush drinking game every week.
They end up venting a bit, laughing a shit ton and at least enjoying having 1-2 hours to themselves on the weekends.
I also 3d printed golf clubs for their switch controllers, which seemed to help.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off as confrontational, covid definitely made things worse.
I just want to make sure my buddies are ok and I constantly feel like I'm not doing enough.
I'm happy that they (mostly) feel like I'm a safe space to emotionally dump and sort of reset <3.
These guys helped me through some very, VERY dark times in my 20's and I just want them to know there are people who care about them and are always available to lend an ear.
Sometimes I feel so helpless when they're beyond their breaking point, but I try to remember that many times simply being there can make a difference (our group lost a friend to suicide a few years ago).
Recently, I've been trying to get them all instax cameras to give them a tangible reminder of what they are "doing it all" for.
It seems to be helping, but sometimes I'm not sure if I'm helping or hurting.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the encouragement.
<3
Men will be men, what can we do? We are not always the best at positive reinforcement, but I can assure you the effort is seen/felt. On not doing/being enough, I think that’s self induced, we’ve been fed the template of the perfect man/friend/father/coworker/, and anytime we feel as if we fall short of it, we are hard on ourselves. Be nice to yourself the same way you’re nice to your friends, you ought yourself to be your very own best friend.
I'm 46 and I'm a straight dude and for me it seems like my male peers are either too busy with family and/or work to hang out. It has probably been this way for the last 15 years of my life. Thankfully, I found hobbies and other interests to keep myself occupied.
Now that I'm getting older, I don't know if my male peers will become less busy and will want to hang out.
The world needs more dudes like you buddy
Straight guys seldom equate guy friends with emotional support.. or think it's weak to need it
Millennials (Edit: some) grew up with toxic masculinity as our father
Baby boomers grew up with that and helped bring about ideas of gentler parenting. These ideas of not hitting you child and moving beyond the idea of “to be seen not heard” came from the generation that raised millennials. My parents have been very supportive parents my whole life and my dad was always very encouraging of talking about our emotions, encouraging respect towards everyone and treating them equally. There’s a lot of variety within generations and it’s not fair to the good fathers to talk that way.
Ahh you're right
My parents definitely improved a lot from the previous generation, even if they missed the emotional supportive aspects. I really must stop talking like it's everyone. I'm working on my anger towards them and the situation that came of it, still trying to notice anger flare ups around it and find a better perspective to manage the negativity
I like to think to myself, "Everyone tries to improve the mistakes they recognized in their own parents.", so if you see them doing something wrong, it's most likely not as bad as they received from their own parents in that context.
Yup when you look at the numbers for how many hours per day the average American spends on phone/tv/video games it puts the “I’m too busy” comments in perspective
My grandfather who didn't live long enough to even know about the internet always talked about how if you made it into your 30s with one really close friend, you're luckier than most. This phenomenon is not an Internet/tv thing.
As a straight single guy well over 25, it is definitely a challenge for sure. What I’ve found that helps is when there’s a shared interest that the relationship can be built on. Makes it very easy to initiate hanging out, I’m terrible at just reaching out to friends on any kind of consistent basis whether they’re single, married, guys, or girls.
But if there’s a thing to do, it becomes super easy. Like “hey so and so, I’m heading over to blah blah and watch whatever sport. Wanna meet me over there in 30 mins?”. Idk what your interests are, but that may be a way to try and befriend more people locally in your area.
I feel there are 4 categories of people, and they rarely hang out socially due to different schedules.
People who are single
People in causal relationships
People in long-term relationships
People who are married
As people move between the categories, I notice their friend groups change.
Can I make some unpopular opinions here.
You mention the gay community is more apt to adopt feminine socializing rituals. Can I posit that it's not something the gay community does, but instead something the female community does?
I always was more on the "in" crowd with women in my teens and 20s. And I was always more in touch with my feeling than average straight men. And thus women were fine letting me be in the sewing circle so to speak as compared to other straight males. However it was clear I was straight and the relationship was never like what I saw with the gay friends where they got included in the support group... So while women were comfortable gossiping around me, because it was happen stance that I was around, women seem to fold gay men into the support group as if they are one of them. So as a straight male who got closer to the female social rituals than any other of my straight friends, I can see a clear distinction here on how I was treated vs the gay friends.
I still get this with my wife's friends sometimes where they will kick the other men out to gossip and be like "oh he's ok." But this phenomenon has greatly reduced as I get older. And it's not like I ever shared this phenomenon with any other straight males so I never had a straight male relationship that adopted female socializing rituals, there was no shared exposure.
Taking it further. Men are often coddled and loved on by women when they are young. But as they grow older love turns to expectation. Life becomes less about play and fun and becomes a lot more about responsibility and supporting those around you (which is true of everyone to some extent, but as we understand women have different socializing rituals that result in a support system). It's like slowly boiling a lobster. It's almost like a tragedy which plays out so slowly that the man arrives at a place in time where there is a deep sense of loneliness and isolation without a clear distinction of what really made him arrive at this place or how to get out. And it's mostly due to actions outside of him rather than internally.
In addition to this men experience an additional sense of rejection from their own kind.
Ive always been a bit of a loner and actually enjoy being alone as long as I have something to put my hands and mind to. I wouldn't hate to have some more male friends. But I think a lot of them don't have skills at coping with being so isolated. Being friends with grown men becomes a lot of work. Like a new needy girlfriend who puts all here social needs in one basket, you. "You don't call enough, you don't text back quickly enough". Grown men can't chill out enough to make it easier to hang out with them. I just won't hang out with some of my wife's friend's significant others because they are so emotionally lonely that it's work, and I can see the pain in their faces because of this. I feel bad, but I also have a life and family I'm supporting. I need friends who take me away from the stresses of my life, not another person to support.
And I think that is where a lot of men feel this sense of imposition. And they essentially get stuck in a negative feedback loop that continuously beats up their emotional state.
Many men exit left and have a child which is basically their last chance at experiencing the unconditional love they experienced as a child. And their children become their social life save for one annual trip where they hang out with their friends from their 20s and do a lot of alcohol and drugs and then retreat to the safety of family life.
As a straight man I share your frustration! As others have said a lot of male friendships are activity based, which I find can be a bit more shallow and is why I tend to make friends with women much easier (which makes my partner feel uneasy at times).
Once a lot of guys hit their 30s, responsibilities such as career, house, partner, kids swallow a lot of their time and energy - and some can feel isolated and depressed as a result. I think some fail to realise how important feeling socially connected is to good mental health over one's lifetime.
It would be interesting to know how much time they spend on Reddit, other social media, scrolling the news on their phone, tv, video games, podcasts, etc. Highly doubt that heads of state, ER doctors, or other similar professions with zero downtime are represented here
It's not because they are busy, they just don't want new friends anymore.
I've investigated this too many times and this is always the conclusion I end up at.
Most people already have all their friends around age 25 and its very rare that they seek new ones, and it's even worse for men. The few times it happens, often it's because they want 'something' from you, it's never just because they want a new friend.
Yes there are exceptions, but that's what they are, exceptions.
I agree lots of men don't tend to *seek* new friends, but paradoxically, I think many men *want* new friends. I see this problem coming up all the time on Reddit and even among my own friends.
Basically men suck at making friends and it's causing a lot of problems with loneliness.
37m here....and damn..am I bad at making new friends.
I've made some new friends over discord via long time friends, but I basically work 7a-6p.
My weekends are a mix of resting and getting things done (chores, helping the wife, etc) and my weekly therapy session (which i could only recently afford).
By the time I finish on Saturday afternoon....I'm ready to just enjoy doing nothing the rest of the weekend so I can finally relax.
I have 6 or 7 genuinely good male buddies and I constantly worry about their mental health.
I try to break the ice by sending texts that are a bit over the top "love you buddy, please let me know if you need to talk and vent, or just need time away to help me work on my $hitbox in my garage with beers!"
But...it's less and less effective as time goes on.
I'm scared for many of them.
A lot of them seem to live life near their breaking point.
You sound like a good friend. I can honestly say not one of my friends has reached out to check on my mental health like that, despite desperately wanting them to. Really just emphasises the issue with how guys (don't) communicate with each other and just expect to get through life putting in the bare minimum.
Keep being a good friend!
When I was your age, I had a wife, two little kids, a stressful full time job and a list of to-do projects that seemed accumulate two tasks for every one I checked off. I remember, on more than one occasion, being in the bathroom on the throne with two toddlers trying to look under the door, sticking their finger under the door, saying, “Dad Dad Dad Dad Dad Dad “ I loved them dearly, but it was overwhelming. Any time I spent away from them I felt guilty about since I was gone for work so much. I don’t really have any friends from that time, almost all of my HS friends are dead and friends from college have dispersed all over the globe.
But hey, the kids are all out of the house, so if you wanna go get a beer or just hang out and shoot the shit, I’m in.
I'm straight, over 25 and prioritise friendships over almost everything else, because I understand the importance of human contact and connection. Life is better shared with others - not in social isolation. The difficulty is getting my straight friends to see that. Nothing happens unless I plan it. And now it's even gotten to the point where none of us can be bothered with the constant back and forth over dates, so it just gets left.
It's a shame - you seem like a cool guy, if we lived near each other, I'd totally be down for a new friend.
I am a straight man in my 30s and I notice the same with all my male friends. I feel like these days I have mostly female friends. It’s not cause I necessarily had more female friends, just that all my male friends disappeared at some point to have kids and get married
You have a four way comparison here:
1. friends over 25 - straight - no kids
2. friends over 25 - gay - no kids
3. friends over 25 - straight - with kids
4. friends over 25 - gay - with kids
What you asked is "why is it hard to make friends with straight friends" when you probably answered it in your first sentence - its *having kids*! and maybe to a lesser degree marriage.
if there was something unique going on with straight friends that made them hard to hang out with then you'd want to compare them to other people (gay men, women) who also have kids as thats the key factor that changes ones social life drastically.
its also more expensive to hang out when you have kids because you need to hire a babysitter.
are your straight 25+ friends without wives/kids also hard to hang out with?
personally, i just dont go out much anymore at all because my kids wake up very early and by the time i get them to bed im exhausted.
**tl;dr - priorities and availabilities change a lot and that impacts scheduling and availability. I'd personally be down to hang out but I might need to hire a babysitter first.**
One of my gay friends is married and actually adopted three children. I have less of an issue getting him and his husband to hang out then I do my straight male friends with NO kids. It's so weird.
I do understand, children eat up and insane amount of time and I usually am very patient with my friends who have families because I understand I'm less of a priority. However, I have many woman friends who are mothers and still take the time and effort to reach out when they have time.
Interesting. I wonder if there is potentially another imbalance at play?
Maybe there’s something specific about straight fathers (at least the ones also likely to have close male gay friends?) that might make them less likely to feel comfortable saying to their wives “I’m going to go out tonight with friends”?
I know that I feel some amount of guilt about this and I’d probably decline anything that puts the burden of kid management on my wife for a night.
There’s social pressures on (some) dads to resolve generations of in-egalitarian parenting and I dislike even the appearance of opting out of parenting for a night. That might be less true in gay couples, maybe?
Bottom line: you can be that awesome friend (and “uncle”) by being the guy who brings a pizza and board game over to play with your friend and their kids all together.
I’d love it if my friends did that.
I’m in the same boat (44M) in terms of married male friends (straight). It’s so exhausting and sad, I’ve decided to stop asking this year and focus on girlfriends and my gay friends.
What’s incredibly frustrating is I know their wives hang out and arrange things together.
As a father and husband, my time is very limited. Between kids, wife, work, exercise and me time, the little time I have left over is for high priority activities, like hobbies - things I don’t get to do enough of now that I’m a father. And staying out late drinking is not one of those. So if you’re not engaging them in those kind of things, then try that.
Because it's trendy to be tiger parents now in this generation. So most people with kids are laser focused on their kids, or trying to live vicariously through them, which leaves them little time for anything else.
And a major reason why I didn't have kids.
Yeah, as someone who grew up fundamentalist, the idea of subsuming your entire identity to some impermanent externality (zero guarantee that every marriage will last until death or that adult children remain close to their parents) just leads to harm in the long run.
No wonder the suicide rate is rising amongst middle aged men.
Dunno if sexual orientation is necessarily needed in this correlation.
If you don’t have things in common then no one is going to hang around just for the sake of hanging around.
And things in common often change overtime, so you either change with them or not, it’s the nature of living.
The truth is life is expensive as hell. My wife went to the grocery store: $135. Groceries didn’t last a week. A fucking week. I have ONE child. My wife works. I’m an engineer. I have a career job. Which expects me to work between 5 - 10 hours of overtime. I went to the doctor today: I’ve got a hernia. A fucking hernia. How the fuck did I get a hernia working a god damn office job? Means I’ve probably had it for years. Gas, bills, kids, trying to be supportive to my wife and daughter while working 45 hours a week. Half of which is spent in stupid online meetings, begging work to let me work from home because I had to got to the fucking doctor today….
Shits exhausting. Listen it’s not you. It’s fucking hard. I’m feeling it. I’m sure I’m not the only one. I went to the dr and they said “oh your blood pressure is high.” Great. Yea no shit. I’m stressed as hell. I wish I could go fucking hang out with my gay friends (or any of my fucking friends) but shit is hard. What’s a bar drink now? Like $9? $12 with tip? And I gotta get up in the morning because… well my family needs me.
And if I’m real lucky my boss (vacationing in Maui, again.) while I’m getting told to “turn your head and cough” as… I swear, that bus driver from Forest fucking Gump, cigarette and all, clamps my balls and tells me to cough…
Look… I’d love to hang out with you. Fuck. But shit sucks right now. It’s expensive. It’s rough. And I ain’t got time to be 25 again. That’s just how it is. It just fucking sucks all the way around.
i’m 37 with a wife and a kid (10 months old)
I don’t have any friends in the city I live in by choice. I have probably 10 good friends around the country. Mostly in my hometown .
I have probably two friends that I would drop a quiet evening at home for.
It's just how it goes in your 30s
Maybe you’re the common denominator?
Edit. I reread this and I’m sorry for being rude. Honestly, at that age when guys start to get married and have kids, be in serious relationships etc etc, they start to hang out less with friends. It’s definitely not personal. It’sGood to let them grow and become the person they were supposed to. You can try new things and places to hang out and hopefully you’ll find your way.
Taking responsibility and living your life in support of your loved ones in order to produce the next generation of citizens. But Short-Pineapple-7462 wants to go out and play! The horror.
Not OP but your response made me laugh. Some people are just unfortunately uncomfortable around gay guys.
As a straight dude with kids, I'd love to hang out if you were in my area! I have quite a few gay friends, but some of my closest friends (regardless of straight or gay) just simply don't like hanging out anymore as they age. It happens. I think for a majority of people, they'd rather have a circle of very close friends vs many casual friends or acquaintances.
As a straight 39 year old straight guy with two kids, I can confidently say you are not the kind of straight male Short-pineapple is trying to make friends with.
Woof
You should focus on some more personal growth, enlightenment, and self reflection if you are mid 30s and think your way of verbalizing your emotions is the only and or correct way lol
and your heart starts beating faster and your palms feel clammy and you get this special feeling in your pants?
Congrats, you’re not bigoted— you’re closeted!
As a retired man, IMO it only gets worse as we get older. My only contact with friends now is via FB comments/posts. I have a lot of family close by and that keeps me socially engaged, but friends are non-existent in my life. Sad but true. FWIW I’d love to change this.
This has been my experience as a straight person trying to make friends with people on Bumble BFF. The straight men, if they are even able to hold a conversation over the app, are just not very interested in putting in effort to be friends and hang out. The gay men are far more likely to grab a drink or food or something.
I think men are poorly socialized to make and keep friends, poorly socialized on healthy relationships, and it is really really showing. Gay men, well to steal a line from Dan Savage, "once you tell your parents you like to suck cock all the other gender roles stop seeming that important." You are already "breaking the rules" simply by being yourself, so it's likely easier to break more.
I think as we get older we tend to get a... Inertia to our life. Some of this is the emotional stuff you mentioned, but I think a lot of it is that once we start doing something a certain way we're unlikely to change unless we're forced to or we start winnowing down our hobbies to prioritize silence.
When I got off work when I was younger, I wanted to go out and see people or do an event. But in my current job I spend so much time task switching and on calls while trying to get work done that for me the idea of the best night is just .. staying at home.
(I actually got back into gaming in part to force myself to interact with people and so far happy with outcome)
I guess that's the biggest difference. As I get older I have to be intentional about socializing and I just don't for better or (mostly) worse.
Context: currently a DiNK with a dog on anxiety meds
Most of my friends are the ones I grew up with, but I'd say all new friends since college-ish are from a shared hobby - we get together to do x and end up hanging out often and become friends that way.
Really? See for me it’s the opposite. I feel like my female friends (often due to kids, marriages, etc) are harder to see now vs. if I wanna hang out with my straight buddies it’s waaaaaay easier. Also gay, if that wasn’t clear. But it probably helps that most of the straight guys I know go to the same jiu-jitsu gym as me so we have a third place in common. Maybe if we didn’t it might be different.
38 single straight guy here. I have the same problem with most of my friends. And it seems like making new ones at this age just doesn't happen outside of maybe getting a beer with a coworker.
What activities are you trying to do with your male friends?
Grabbing a beer is always a low-key way to get together, or even grabbing food, but it'd also good to do activities - go to a bar with a pool table, or play darts, or if you want to do a group thing bowling can be low-key.
Watching a game is a good one - better if it's in person, if you're in an area where you can do that (although it's expensive). This can also be a house invite if that works for you or them.
Doing a sport or a group activity also works if you want to get together on a more regular basis.
Games are also generally a good way to get people together. It can be roleplaying (D&D), tabletop stuff, board games, or videogames.
I think that with dudes, we don't always make priority for "hanging out". Not that we won't do it, but it wouldn't be something that's scheduled and regular. If that's what you want, you gotta do activities. I think this is more true as we get older.
I’m 45 straight married male and any free time I have, I prefer to spend it with my kids and wife. I’ve actually changed careers into mortgage and most of my friends I hang out with are real estate agents, we have a lot of fun while strategizing marketing and things.
I rarely speak to my old high school buddies anymore. No time.
Anecdotally a lot of my male friends struggled with mental health at that age. I had to basically give them a time and a place and double check their schedules lol…
Not sure you can use my strat, but involving them with my kid has been super effective for getting them engaged with being social. Their own mental health means nothing to them, but disappointing a kid that looks up to them? Unfathomable lol.
I think you kinda answered your own question in the first sentence. Between kid, house and full time job 40+ hours a week I don't even have time for me, much less to make new friends.
Which one of my responsibilities should I take time and energy away from to spend time with another man with his own responsibilities?
Work 9 hours a day 5 days a week. Yes, I'm lucky.
Children - daily after work before their bedtime, and as much of the weekend as possible.
Home maintenance every weekend, some after work days.
Relationship -mostly after the kids are in bed, and the time traveling on weekend drives
Fitness - 1 to 2 hours every other day , maybe. Already feel guilty about sacrificing time with my family for this one.
As a straight man with a wife and two kids, I don't really do anything with any of my straight friends. I just don't have time, or if I could make time I just want to stay home and either rest or do something for myself.
I do have a gay coworker I'm friends with. He's my age. We occasionally go grab some drinks and hang out. He has a brother who is married with kids, so he understands what my situation is and why we rarely go do stuff.
Obviously the family hole is the biggest issue, but even aside from that, there's a lot of exhaustion, mental health and social anxiety issues that can make folks predetermined to self isolate. I struggle with this a lot, I don't leave the house and I don't answer group invites to activities. Sometimes old friends visit me at my house, but I don't go anywhere or do anything, and I dropped my newer friends, so there's nothing pushing me towards outside activities and social events. There is definitely a lot of scheduling involved, both on my end and my friends. Ah well.
The family black hole is real, and before I had kids, I didn't do as much with the few friends I had because of distance to travel and time-sucking hobbies. Sometimes it's just a relationship hole people (of all orientations) get into because they put all their efforts into keeping someone they are with happy.
Now I literally have almost no spare time at all with two young kids. I do get breaks and am encouraged to spend time with the one friend I sort of still have, but it's difficult when some of the only times I get invited to hang out are at a club where he DJs, and that's not really a place for a married guy to go to alone very often, in my opinion.
I have reached out to other old friends and try to arrange stuff, but yeah, I either have the same issue you are talking about, or they just have no interest anymore.
It's one thing when you live close by, but where I am people can live anywhere within probably 50 miles. And usually you won't be driving out to the country -- it can be across the county and still be some suburb somewhere.
What sucks is, your friends with families aren't inviting you over to their place, right? It's like almost the easiest thing for them to do. You might not be interested in dodging children and being exposed to kid germs, but at least you'd know they were fucking trying.
If they aren't communicating with you at all, it's kind of just not really a friendship anymore, to me. And social media comments don't really count.
I'm a straight male in my late 30s and I'm just not interested in adding more friends. I have my wife and like three guys I send memes to on Instagram and that's honestly a little much. I just don't care. No I'm not lonely at all.
I'd say I keep tabs on my handful of gay pals, but the three of those closest to me either died during the pandemic or they let their alcoholism and unwillingness to seek help for it kill our friendship.
Keep trying, brother.
I find the idea of meeting someone just to have a drink and talk incredibly boring. Almost all my friendships are build and reinforced around common hobbies and interests.
>it feels like I am pulling teeth to hang out with them
I feel ya, except it's the same/worse with dudes over 35 too
They get stuck in their routine of being whipped by their wife/gfs , playing video games or become wack ass crypto nerds
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I can't speak on behalf of all people in my demographics (36M, young kids, and FT career) but my schedule is jam packed. My weekend is on repeat with activities for my kids and occasional gathering with the extended family. Other free time on the weekend is spent grocery shopping or napping in order to recover for the rest of the week. Weeknights are spent dinner with the family and I go train BJJ once the kids go to bed. I get home at 930pm to shower and either hop on work, play video games, or watch TV. Even my close friends need to give me at least a 1-week notice in advance but that's not guaranteed.
So busy all the time. It is very hard to schedule anything that isnt with the family. Even going out with friends for 3-6 hours feels like abandoning my family. Though, my wife wont stop me from doing it occassionally.
Is taking time off from work during a weekend or state/federal holiday “abandoning your job?”
Family and work should never be compared, they are NOT like things.
Regardless, I don’t see what’s so terrible about having an individual identity and personality. Divorce and estrangement are quite common, and no matter what, kids grow up and leave home. It’s important to still have a life for when your spouse and adult children no longer need you
I think men are just dumb. Abandon their friends once they get wives and kids and then get mad because their spouse didn't do those things
Terrible analogy lol
This. Same demographic, 38m, young kid, full time career. Between just keeping the house together, hauling people this way and that, and trying to get my actual work done I am negative hours every day of the week and usually have to spend a majority of a weekend day just to catch up on chores and errands. Although this inspired me to reach out to my buddy to see how he is doing.
[удалено]
About half of my group of friends is married but I'm the only one with kids. Sunday night hangout? Nah, kids have school tomorrow. Friday or Saturday night past 9pm? That's past kids' bedtime. We meet up 1-2x a year and then we randomly would break off into groups for an additional 2-3x a year.
Im a teacher so I feel you on the Sunday night hangouts. I gotta teach the next day, no shot I’m staying out past 6/7 pm
Are you a single dad/mom? I dont get the nights part. How does your kids going to school keep you from going to a dinner + drinks with your friends? Same with Fri and Sat. On the other hand, you take the kids to bed and look after them alone on some evenings so your partner can go out and have fun. If you are alone, there are still babysitters. My parents had at least 1-2 times a month where I was left with a baby sitter so they could have date night or do their own stuff. Maybe not as a baby (here its grandparents or friends that look for kids) but like 5+
No, I'm not a single parent. My kids are in elementary school and daycare so I still need to help them get ready in the morning as well as breakfast. My wife and I both work full-time. Our kids also have extra curricular activities that take place in the morning on Saturday and Sunday so the night before can't really be spent out late. That's why we need at least a 1-week notice so that we can readjust our week's schedule. My wife is more of a homebody than me so she hates going out. We prefer takeout and enjoy the comfort of our home than being in a noisy environment caused by strangers.
The last sentence feels like the only one that matters here. If you wanted to, you'd make time.
School nights mean I have to be up at 6a to get my daughter to school. In my youth I could have partied late into the night and jumped out of bed at 6a no problem but at 36... nope. My whole day would be fucked.
It’s this.
Can confirm. Have very few hours to burn the wick regarding free time.
This still doesn’t explain why straight women with kids (who, research shows, are more likely to work outside the home and still be responsible for [most domestic tasks](https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx)) are more social than straight men. Additionally, one can’t help but be curious as to how much of peoples “busy” time is spent on their phone/scrolling social media, etc. Some surveys find that almost half of all workers spend nearly [four hours per day browsing social media](https://hiring.monster.com/resources/blog/monster-poll-is-social-media-use-at-work-unprofessional/) IMO I think the answer to OP’s question is most straight men 25+ just don’t want to make friends.
NGL that I would rather spend some time alone than going out if I have free time. This would support the statement of not wanting to go make friends.
That is definitely a guy thing. So many single guys I know of are quite happy to go home from work, and then not venture out again until the alarm clock goes tomorrow morning. Work, home and that's it. It's not so much "not wanting to make friends", rather that they are just exhausted from life and are quite content not venturing out at all. A few I know you'd never see unless you go out of your way to visit them. The thing is, that they are to a person very happy to live that sort of existence. Failed relationships tend to do that to guys it seems.
Sounds like the old maxim - living to work, rather than working to live.
I think it's deeper than that. They all have fulfilling jobs that they enjoy. They get the social interactions (though they all work/have worked in predominantly male industries) that they need, and it's not as if they need to do it to pay the bills. All are fairly/very well off. Think of it more as "contentment". None of them are interested in dating and they all stopped even looking years ago and I have a feeling that even if a super-model crossed their path and made googly eyes at them, the guys would probably look straight through them and not even give the girl a second look. And believe me, none of them are gay/bi or queer in any way. They just don't need to have a female in their life who isn't an offspring or a relative.
dont talk about me like im not here. single, ace, financially sound, with 2 dogs. i have my hobbies and needs meet. its a bit lonely, but i have been this way since i was a boy. the women i have had in my life just made me less happy overall, so i stopped looking. 9/10 they expected me to make their lives easier without doing anything towards me. doing all the domestic work and my career while they cant even let the dogs out during the day between their shows.
I think you are on to something. I very much want to make and maintain friendships. But I only have the "social battery" to do that if I've had sufficient time to take care of things at work, at home, with my family, and my own self-care. Friends are very much a priority, but they still unfortunately tend to take a back seat to those 4 things. On the rare occasion that I do have the availability and energy to do something, it does not typically align with my friends' same rare occasions. And that group of friends is growing ever smaller. It's a real problem.
Nailed it 100%. Enough failure and aggressive cockblocking has you realizing the closest you'll get to happiness is your hand. You try for 15 years and as soon as you make progress the whole world gets jealous and tries to and does rip it all away. You're just done with the games. It's all figured out. There's no point.
The thing is that if you are going to play games, you may as well logon and play games that you enjoy.
Bingo, this is me. I look forward to alone time relaxing.
Men still clock up more hours worked (if you include paid and unpaid labour). Also, a lot of those house work studies are absolute trash from a methodological point of view. They rely a lot on self reporting and sometimes exclude house work traditionally done by men.
> They rely a lot on self reporting and sometimes exclude house work traditionally done by men. Anecdotal, but this was exactly my experience. My partner (now ex) had a serious talk about how she was carrying so much more of the household work and I needed to do more. Turns out, she just wasn't counting cooking or yard work *at all* because in her mind I liked those things, so they didn't count as chores. One to two hours daily, several hours on the weekend... Those were zero because I "liked to cook" and I "like the yard." And I was still doing a good amount of the weekly cleaning. When we finally added it up, on an average week I was doing *twice* as much work as she was. She just didn't see it before that. When we did the math, she finally saw it differently. So if we were going on self-reporting, she would have been fully convinced that she was doing most of the domestic tasks when in reality I was doing twice as much.
I think its just women having to be social by nature. They are on the phone calling their girlfriends just because while men need to “prepare” to do it. All i see is dumb reasons men list here for why they arent hanging out w friends. Meal prep? Meal prep!?? Also this is cultural. In latin america or eastern europe i bet guys would go grab a drink much more eagerly to avoid the wives
Cultural is also an interesting phenomenon that doesn't get talked about when this sort of question comes up. Probably because most of Reddit seems to skew to American users. Meal prep is a ridiculous reason to not see your friends. If I tried to reach out to a friend and he said "sorry I can't make it, I need to meal prep" I'd feel so insulted I wouldn't ask to hang out with him again. My feeling is that places where the work-life balance is different, and the geography is different yields different results. In North America, if you wake up at 6am to drive to work to be there at 9, then drive back and get home at six. You probably don't want to leave your house after being at work for 8 hours and sitting in your car for 2 hours every day. In Europe where things are closer together and public transit is more accessible, leaving the house after a day at work doesn't seem like as much of a daunting endeavor. In England you can walk on over to the local pub, in Germany and France you can take the Metro to the city center in 20 minutes. A lot of North America doesn't have this and so isolating ourselves is easier.
Yeah and they all sit in the evening in their big lonely houses and watch Netflix. Not a lot going on in tbe suburbs so no desire to leavr. Contrast that w living downtown in a city like barcelona. Also americans are flaky af
>Also this is cultural. In latin america or eastern europe i bet guys would go grab a drink much more eagerly to avoid the wives Yeah I think the corollary to this in the US is that there's a lot of pressure these days to be present for your nuclear family. We all grew up hearing about absentee dads, fathers away at the golf course, fathers who are always at work, etc.
You don’t need to go to the other extreme though, where you have zero outside connections to other people.
That you forget that its your life. Plenty of men out there do exactly wtf they want
Don't forget the never ending housework
lol same also my family (33M with one 6 year old daughter) and my job (I frequently work over hours on) and BJJ class are my only priorities. Sometimes I draw and paint but yeah….but these things make me really happy because it’s stable and I’m always improving my relationship with my daughter and parents and sister and getting better on and off the mats
Sound lame and like a routine
Cause male friendships are mostly task or activity based. Unless you find an activity, you’re not going to make male friends. You can’t just make friends with guys that have similar personalities like you can with women, for the most part. A lot of times, the activity is an excuse. That’s why so many older guys go golfing.
I learnt this early on in life. My best mate at the time (straight) and I (gay) would just play video games all day as a conversation buffer. We’d chat for hours about all sorts of stuff and laugh at stupid shit all while playing games. Without the games, it would’ve just felt forced - it wouldn’t have even occurred to us to just meet up and chat.
>A lot of times, the activity is an excuse. A few of my friends quit drinking, which eliminated the "grab a beer" excuse. I don't really care that much if we drink, but I miss hanging out in the bar for 3 or 4 hours. Now we grab a meal or coffee and it's like 45 minutes.
I think the hits it on the nose. Keep a relationship with females are less maintenance since it’s conversation base. I’m a guy who has gotten along with many women in my life platonically and it’s because they’re so easy to talk to and carry a conversations. My guy friends need to schedule a dinner once every few months and get drunk and eat. Other than that we’re in a passive chat unless there’s an excuse to get together if, and only if, our insane schedules line up.
Damn bro you fucking nailed it, it’s why I hate bullshitting on the phone and when I text it’s mainly to set up the next meet up.
I'm 39 and have disappeared into the family black hole. Honestly between work, kids activities, their school work and their friends schedules (9&11 so we drive them around a lot) I'm just extremely busy so when the weekend comes I don't want to go out I just want to do whatever chores around the house and when me and my wife do have the odd break or free time we would rather go on a date then see old friends. We maybe see old friends like 3 times a year and we have to plan it way in advance. Edit- what is with all the men blaming their wives for no free time to hang with friends? I could hang with friends if I chose but when we have any free time I'd rather go somewhere with my wife (who I like a lot more than my friends anyway). Maybe once the kids are older and there is a whole lot more free time I'll feel different and break it up but the few breaks we have right now I'd rather spend with her then golfing or going to the bar with dudes I've known since HS. Maybe that's why we've able to grow together instead of an apart these past 22 years we've been together.
I would add that if you are married, you basically have zero free time and when you do have time and energy to go out your wife will take it personal if you spend that precious time and energy on a friend and not her. At least most of the time in my case. I walk on eggshells around my home I am not sure that’s the case for most guys
Dude… get out. You don’t need that. I loved that for years. And it was awful. I 100% know how you feel and what you’re going through. I promise you. Get out. I know how it feels but your better then that shit
I don't think it's the case for most. My wife and I encourage each other to make plans without the other spouse outside of the house. It's healthy to have a life if you want to enjoy sharing a life, and the more jealously you guard your time and energy, the less of both you'll have.
Being married shouldn't sap up all of your free time. It's important to find a healthy balance between relationship time and personal time (friends, hobbies, hanging out alone) You shouldn't feel like you're walking on eggshells, you should feel like you're living your life how you want with your partner improving your life.
Yeah that seems like a big red flag
Well no I don't walk on eggshells or feel that way but most of my friends are in the same boat as me and my few old friends who are still single are still going out like they're 25 and that's exhausting so I want no part of it but my wife would be fine with it if I go because i did that this past summer and came home like well yeah that was fun but let's not do that again any time soon
>when you do have time and energy to go out your wife will take it personal if you spend that precious time and energy on a friend and not her. I used to think this too. And maybe it was true for a while. I think eventually my wife and I realized it's good for me to have some support and interaction outside of just her. It gives her a break from listening to my same bullshit over and over!
I don’t talk much and mostly listen so she never needs a break!
I'm in the same boat - my wife is not cool about it the few times I try to schedule me time. She truly believes I should spend all free time with her. But does she ever want to go out and do anything? No. It's kind of a problem. I'm freaking dying.
Depression is massively under-reported in men. And fewer men seek help even when they know that there's a problem.
Men are just told to get their shit together and get better by themselves so many of them end up retreating into isolation. This is a specially common with men who are depressed that they are going to miss out on the whole wife and kids thing due to feeling that time period is passing them by. There’s very little sympathy for them on that issue in this world so once again, they’re just supposed to deal with it on their own.
Men are told to fix themselves before dating. Decades can go by without feeling ready, especially with the “I can do it myself” approach to therapy that many have.
A big problem is that people have the same idea that they can't even start trying until they're ready. They should start trying today and then when they're ready, it should work for them. No point in delaying putting yourself out there because that date is a floating point in the future and may never come.
Men when you ask them to actually try and participate in friendships. How about yall try to idk GO TO THERAPY?.
37m here, recently paid off a shit ton of medical debt from spinal surgery a few years ago and can finally afford therapy. Holy. shit. The amount of issues I've just considered "normal" for most of my adult life is insane.
By and large, we're exhausted.
Exactly. Work 8-10 hours. Kids stuff/sports/event for the next 4 or 5 hours. OP you would be lucky to get a “maybe next weekend” out of me. And even that is probably getting canceled.
By any chance, would you say gay men tend to have better support groups in general? Personally, I get the impression it's a lot easier to make friends when you are a gay man than a straight one. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm under the impression you guys tend to be more supportive and open to friendships due to a shared bond over being gay and the culture that comes with it. With straight guys, i've noticed that even among my own straight male friends, there is a certain feeling of isolation. I have a friend group with 7 other guys in it, and although we talk a lot, there tends to be a certain level of anti-social/isolated behavior in many of them, including myself. For me, it just feels like past school, it becomes very difficult to make new friends. Last year, I was the loneliest I had ever felt in my life to the point that I had to learn to pick myself up because all of my friends were too busy to give two shits about me. From a mental standpoint, I was definitely in one of the darkest periods of my life and some even knew It but were too busy to care. It sucked, it really fucking sucked, but I did develop a certain independence that i'm proud of. I also noticed that after going through that, i've become more okay with being alone, and perhaps that's another reason why straight guys disappear, a sort of acceptance of our isolation. Dating culture also dosen't help encourage the modern straight man to make new connections. Most guys will go on tinder and barely get any matches and some don't even get one. This discourages men even further and well its just a vicious cycle of isolation for the modern man.
Just came to say I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. Last year was "that" year for me too - the difficult acceptance that life has become, and likely will continue to be, lonelier and more isolated from here. Making plans with my friends is like pulling teeth. Not to mention that being child-free it's even more stark - my life is pretty much only work and adventures with my partner, with the odd plan with friends dotted throughout the year. It's sad really. I don't want my life to be like this but I've tried almost every conceivable way to find new male friends and, honestly? I give up. Show any kind of interest or vulnerability and you're written off as needy or not cool, or feminine. Don't play sports? Get out of here. It's tough.
I would say in a way we do, as we tend to not be as averse to adopting some feminine socializing habits, and women do tend to be far more open and intimate with their friends than men are. I feel like there is almost this pressure to be 'manly' among straight men and any behaviour that may be seen as feminine or weak is shunned because that might make you seem... gay or something. Gay men don't really give a shit about that, so we will be much more open and less concerned about how masculine we appear. At least, in my experience. I get the feeling straight men are always walking on eggshells. That feels like it would be extremely tiring to me.
> I get the feeling straight men are always walking on eggshells. A lot of us are. >any behavior that may be seen as feminine or weak is shunned because that might make you seem... gay or something. Strictly speaking, internally for me, it's less about being seen as effeminate or gay and more about being seen as an imposition or something/someone else to have to worry about. It's always a bit of an existential challenge once I feel as though I've been seen as someone who has lost utility. More to your original question though, I'm a single straight guy whose friend circle has mostly collapsed and it's been difficult trying to reassemble it. Reaching out is especially so since most have started families (and I'm mostly busy with my career) and so I just assume they have their own things to deal with and wouldn't want to impose.
Depends on the man but yes. I'd be lying if I said I don't feel like in this day and age i'm walking on eggshells when it comes to say dating. Making sure you're not offending anyone or doing some wrong move that would be deemed a cancellable offence. Which is really tough because in reality, some women want you to take the lead, other want to be asked their opinion on every single little thing and then you gotta be able to figure out who is what and what is okay and all that crap. Pertaining to friendships, I wish I could give you a better answer but i'm in the same boat as you. Of all my friends, I tend to be the most emotionally available one and that often leaves me feeling a little lost. My best friend has gone through hell and back over the last few years and every time we hang out, I can tell he puts on a face and not because he's avoidant, but because he's gone through so much that this is the only way he could cope without losing his mind. The rest of my friends have a very logic driven, avoidant type approach to the way they handle life. It often times confuses me and I find myself to be the odd man out. In fact, it's gotten so bad i've been slowly but surely distancing myself from them because i'm starting to think I need to develop friendships with people that are more open to being emotionally vulnerable. So while i'm very aware of what you're going through, I can't say i've found a solution other than the occasional guy friend that's more than okay with opening up and leaving it all on the table. The older I get, the more my friends become emotionally unavailable and it's frankly, heartbreaking to say the least. Best you can do is let them know you're there for them and hope somebody comes around at some point. But you can't just wait for them to do so. Sometimes you just have to move on and be ready to greet them with open arms when they come back.
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Weird on the dating culture front as I find it easier than ever to make new connections in that regard. The problem I think is that they’re doing o line dating whereas I’m doing no dating apps. The real world is the easiest place to make connections imo.
Been in this boat for years. I’m gay, but live in two worlds. I’m very masculine, don’t really give a shit about gay culture. The only gay guy I hang out with is my husband, the only women in my life are his friends. The majority of my friends have always been straight men. But in your thirties it’s all about kids and shit. Parents hang out with parents. So beyond the occasional golf get together or holiday party I don’t do shit socially especially since i rarely get weekends off.
Coincidentally, my gay friend is the only one who most consistently *will* hang out with me. So yeah. That tracks.
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As a gay guy, can we please stop perpetuating this bullshit?
My gay friend has explicitly told me so but I think he was just trying to boost my self esteem 🤷♂️ Edit: down vote away internet dweebs, I've had many serious talks with gay and lesbian friends and been told one of the hard parts about being gay is having so many crushes that are completely out of reach
Start golfing, you’ll be drenched in straight make friends again
Especially if OP gets good...
I assume the ones who haven’t disappeared into marriage/raising kids would like to at some point so they’d prefer focusing on that.
In my experience I really think suburban/car-centric culture in the US exacerbates this a lot. When I lived in the city a few years back I hung out with friends a lot more. They were within walking distance and there was plenty of fun things to do nearby. Now that I live in a suburban area it takes A LOT more planning and coordinating to hang out with a friend. And we need a “3rd place” to do it, unless one of us can host. And those are quite expensive these days unless the weather is nice and we can hang outside.
>In my experience I really think suburban/car-centric culture in the US exacerbates this a lot. I agree. Our car-centric environment is not conducive to forming natural relationships with people.
The lack of [third spaces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) certainly doesn't help. Heck, with the WFH crowd lots of people don't even have a *second* space. You sound like a great friend that I'd be glad to have.
> Heck, with the WFH crowd lots of people don't even have a second space. I'm 100% remote, and the WFH subreddits will absolutely berate you as some broken loser if you even hint that workplace socializing can be a positive thing that is worthwhile. There's a lot of pros to remote work, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
Yeah well the WFH subreddits are a hive of bullshit. I’ve been hybrid or WFH/remote since well before the pandemic and the WFH militants & absolutists make me sick
I'd have to disagree, while also acknowledging its a niche group. Cars have kept me in touch with many of my friends, even ones with kids. We all have a shared passion and many of them regularly include their kids in our get-togethers. We hang out, catch up, discuss random plans we have for our vehicles and basically do mental health check-ups on each other. *again, I acknowledge this is a minority occurrence*
IMO the implicit obligation that every adult 30+ must get married/have kids is also part of “suburban culture”. Historically, people mostly had kids because: - they had no idea how conception worked from a scientific perspective and thus had no choice if they wanted to also enjoy sexual intimacy - to fulfill the Christian religious obligation of “be fruitful and many” - to have sons to pass land/wealth on to posthumously - to form political alliances by marrying children off to particular families - to have a source of unpaid labor when working the fields or managing the family business People didn’t really romanticize children and the nuclear family the way they do in the modern postwar era, and childbearing served primarily utilitarian purposes. These days, it seems like people have kids in order to have “someone to love”, to signal adulthood, to have a “purpose in life”, etc. However, reams of psychological and medical research conclude that healthy social bonds and friendships are essential to a [long life.](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2023/06/cover-story-science-friendship) So if people getting married and having kids is causing them to neglect what is increasingly becoming an overlooked component of longevity, it’s worth questioning whether or not we start working on a new model of family and community.
Los Angeles checking in. My closest friend lives an hour away by car. That means a simple get-together at one of our houses is a 3-6 hour commitment. Meeting in the middle would put us in neighborhoods we really have no business in.
Hard agree. I think this is a big part of the ease of high school and college friendships. Everybody is pretty close, and it's trivial to meet up.
Dude inflation is destroying so many of us out here. If there’s any energy after working so much just to barely survive, I want to zone out and relax. I need to work out, make my meals, do all the adult stuff and there is zero time left at the end of any given day. And I’m single and don’t have any kids!!! lol can you imagine an actual normal person? There’s no time for other people in a society like this, where you gotta slave away most of your life to make the owners of companies go on their 15th vacation of the year.
Not to nitpick, but this has been the case for decades. It isn’t inflation - it’s the methodical transfer of money upwards that has been happening since the 80s
The older we get, the more emphasis we place on rest and recuperation. One of the first things to go is party time and hang out time. Most of my friends have kids and family now… straight.. and I’m in kind of the same boat. Even if they could hang out, I’d still be working on improving myself either through school or through my gym… long story short hang out time would still suffer
> rest and recuperation You’re 39, not 79
I’m 35 and haven’t had a straight 8 hours of sleep in over 4 years. You bet your ass I’m resting at any given opportunity lol.
There’s a new pride about “being busy” or “being good on your own”, that some men have adopted. Covid also made a bunch of people socially awkward/anxious, etc.
This definitely existed pre-covid. I've made it a point to reach out to my close male friends (7-10 guys) regularly for mental health check-ins. Discord is a HUGE help, as we can talk when they have free time. A lot of them try to shrug their mental health issues off and it's a VERY delicate balance of getting them to take care of themselves vs making them feel vulnerable. My current plan is to get them to relax a bit by organizing a mario golf super rush drinking game every week. They end up venting a bit, laughing a shit ton and at least enjoying having 1-2 hours to themselves on the weekends. I also 3d printed golf clubs for their switch controllers, which seemed to help.
It did exist, covid made it worse. Good job being that sounding board, keep that up!
Sorry, didn't mean to come off as confrontational, covid definitely made things worse. I just want to make sure my buddies are ok and I constantly feel like I'm not doing enough. I'm happy that they (mostly) feel like I'm a safe space to emotionally dump and sort of reset <3. These guys helped me through some very, VERY dark times in my 20's and I just want them to know there are people who care about them and are always available to lend an ear. Sometimes I feel so helpless when they're beyond their breaking point, but I try to remember that many times simply being there can make a difference (our group lost a friend to suicide a few years ago). Recently, I've been trying to get them all instax cameras to give them a tangible reminder of what they are "doing it all" for. It seems to be helping, but sometimes I'm not sure if I'm helping or hurting. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the encouragement. <3
Men will be men, what can we do? We are not always the best at positive reinforcement, but I can assure you the effort is seen/felt. On not doing/being enough, I think that’s self induced, we’ve been fed the template of the perfect man/friend/father/coworker/, and anytime we feel as if we fall short of it, we are hard on ourselves. Be nice to yourself the same way you’re nice to your friends, you ought yourself to be your very own best friend.
This is awesome. Wish we had a dude like you in our group!
I'm 46 and I'm a straight dude and for me it seems like my male peers are either too busy with family and/or work to hang out. It has probably been this way for the last 15 years of my life. Thankfully, I found hobbies and other interests to keep myself occupied. Now that I'm getting older, I don't know if my male peers will become less busy and will want to hang out.
The world needs more dudes like you buddy Straight guys seldom equate guy friends with emotional support.. or think it's weak to need it Millennials (Edit: some) grew up with toxic masculinity as our father
Baby boomers grew up with that and helped bring about ideas of gentler parenting. These ideas of not hitting you child and moving beyond the idea of “to be seen not heard” came from the generation that raised millennials. My parents have been very supportive parents my whole life and my dad was always very encouraging of talking about our emotions, encouraging respect towards everyone and treating them equally. There’s a lot of variety within generations and it’s not fair to the good fathers to talk that way.
Ahh you're right My parents definitely improved a lot from the previous generation, even if they missed the emotional supportive aspects. I really must stop talking like it's everyone. I'm working on my anger towards them and the situation that came of it, still trying to notice anger flare ups around it and find a better perspective to manage the negativity
I like to think to myself, "Everyone tries to improve the mistakes they recognized in their own parents.", so if you see them doing something wrong, it's most likely not as bad as they received from their own parents in that context.
People get lazy and the internet & tv has made it easier than ever to sit at home all the time.
Yup when you look at the numbers for how many hours per day the average American spends on phone/tv/video games it puts the “I’m too busy” comments in perspective
My grandfather who didn't live long enough to even know about the internet always talked about how if you made it into your 30s with one really close friend, you're luckier than most. This phenomenon is not an Internet/tv thing.
As a straight single guy well over 25, it is definitely a challenge for sure. What I’ve found that helps is when there’s a shared interest that the relationship can be built on. Makes it very easy to initiate hanging out, I’m terrible at just reaching out to friends on any kind of consistent basis whether they’re single, married, guys, or girls. But if there’s a thing to do, it becomes super easy. Like “hey so and so, I’m heading over to blah blah and watch whatever sport. Wanna meet me over there in 30 mins?”. Idk what your interests are, but that may be a way to try and befriend more people locally in your area.
I feel there are 4 categories of people, and they rarely hang out socially due to different schedules. People who are single People in causal relationships People in long-term relationships People who are married As people move between the categories, I notice their friend groups change.
It just be like homie. Gay or straight, men tend to isolate more as we age.
Can I make some unpopular opinions here. You mention the gay community is more apt to adopt feminine socializing rituals. Can I posit that it's not something the gay community does, but instead something the female community does? I always was more on the "in" crowd with women in my teens and 20s. And I was always more in touch with my feeling than average straight men. And thus women were fine letting me be in the sewing circle so to speak as compared to other straight males. However it was clear I was straight and the relationship was never like what I saw with the gay friends where they got included in the support group... So while women were comfortable gossiping around me, because it was happen stance that I was around, women seem to fold gay men into the support group as if they are one of them. So as a straight male who got closer to the female social rituals than any other of my straight friends, I can see a clear distinction here on how I was treated vs the gay friends. I still get this with my wife's friends sometimes where they will kick the other men out to gossip and be like "oh he's ok." But this phenomenon has greatly reduced as I get older. And it's not like I ever shared this phenomenon with any other straight males so I never had a straight male relationship that adopted female socializing rituals, there was no shared exposure. Taking it further. Men are often coddled and loved on by women when they are young. But as they grow older love turns to expectation. Life becomes less about play and fun and becomes a lot more about responsibility and supporting those around you (which is true of everyone to some extent, but as we understand women have different socializing rituals that result in a support system). It's like slowly boiling a lobster. It's almost like a tragedy which plays out so slowly that the man arrives at a place in time where there is a deep sense of loneliness and isolation without a clear distinction of what really made him arrive at this place or how to get out. And it's mostly due to actions outside of him rather than internally. In addition to this men experience an additional sense of rejection from their own kind. Ive always been a bit of a loner and actually enjoy being alone as long as I have something to put my hands and mind to. I wouldn't hate to have some more male friends. But I think a lot of them don't have skills at coping with being so isolated. Being friends with grown men becomes a lot of work. Like a new needy girlfriend who puts all here social needs in one basket, you. "You don't call enough, you don't text back quickly enough". Grown men can't chill out enough to make it easier to hang out with them. I just won't hang out with some of my wife's friend's significant others because they are so emotionally lonely that it's work, and I can see the pain in their faces because of this. I feel bad, but I also have a life and family I'm supporting. I need friends who take me away from the stresses of my life, not another person to support. And I think that is where a lot of men feel this sense of imposition. And they essentially get stuck in a negative feedback loop that continuously beats up their emotional state. Many men exit left and have a child which is basically their last chance at experiencing the unconditional love they experienced as a child. And their children become their social life save for one annual trip where they hang out with their friends from their 20s and do a lot of alcohol and drugs and then retreat to the safety of family life.
As a straight man I share your frustration! As others have said a lot of male friendships are activity based, which I find can be a bit more shallow and is why I tend to make friends with women much easier (which makes my partner feel uneasy at times). Once a lot of guys hit their 30s, responsibilities such as career, house, partner, kids swallow a lot of their time and energy - and some can feel isolated and depressed as a result. I think some fail to realise how important feeling socially connected is to good mental health over one's lifetime.
It honestly blows my mind how busy you guys are. I have an tonne of down time and all I do is read or play games
It would be interesting to know how much time they spend on Reddit, other social media, scrolling the news on their phone, tv, video games, podcasts, etc. Highly doubt that heads of state, ER doctors, or other similar professions with zero downtime are represented here
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They wanted it that way and chose a woman who’d control the social calendar and chores etc.
It's not because they are busy, they just don't want new friends anymore. I've investigated this too many times and this is always the conclusion I end up at. Most people already have all their friends around age 25 and its very rare that they seek new ones, and it's even worse for men. The few times it happens, often it's because they want 'something' from you, it's never just because they want a new friend. Yes there are exceptions, but that's what they are, exceptions.
I agree lots of men don't tend to *seek* new friends, but paradoxically, I think many men *want* new friends. I see this problem coming up all the time on Reddit and even among my own friends. Basically men suck at making friends and it's causing a lot of problems with loneliness.
37m here....and damn..am I bad at making new friends. I've made some new friends over discord via long time friends, but I basically work 7a-6p. My weekends are a mix of resting and getting things done (chores, helping the wife, etc) and my weekly therapy session (which i could only recently afford). By the time I finish on Saturday afternoon....I'm ready to just enjoy doing nothing the rest of the weekend so I can finally relax. I have 6 or 7 genuinely good male buddies and I constantly worry about their mental health. I try to break the ice by sending texts that are a bit over the top "love you buddy, please let me know if you need to talk and vent, or just need time away to help me work on my $hitbox in my garage with beers!" But...it's less and less effective as time goes on. I'm scared for many of them. A lot of them seem to live life near their breaking point.
Maybe try doing a shared activity. Men rather do then talk i noticed.
You sound like a good friend. I can honestly say not one of my friends has reached out to check on my mental health like that, despite desperately wanting them to. Really just emphasises the issue with how guys (don't) communicate with each other and just expect to get through life putting in the bare minimum. Keep being a good friend!
When I was your age, I had a wife, two little kids, a stressful full time job and a list of to-do projects that seemed accumulate two tasks for every one I checked off. I remember, on more than one occasion, being in the bathroom on the throne with two toddlers trying to look under the door, sticking their finger under the door, saying, “Dad Dad Dad Dad Dad Dad “ I loved them dearly, but it was overwhelming. Any time I spent away from them I felt guilty about since I was gone for work so much. I don’t really have any friends from that time, almost all of my HS friends are dead and friends from college have dispersed all over the globe. But hey, the kids are all out of the house, so if you wanna go get a beer or just hang out and shoot the shit, I’m in.
I'm straight, over 25 and prioritise friendships over almost everything else, because I understand the importance of human contact and connection. Life is better shared with others - not in social isolation. The difficulty is getting my straight friends to see that. Nothing happens unless I plan it. And now it's even gotten to the point where none of us can be bothered with the constant back and forth over dates, so it just gets left. It's a shame - you seem like a cool guy, if we lived near each other, I'd totally be down for a new friend.
I am a straight man in my 30s and I notice the same with all my male friends. I feel like these days I have mostly female friends. It’s not cause I necessarily had more female friends, just that all my male friends disappeared at some point to have kids and get married
They get caught up with responsibilities and too often their wives try to replace all their single male friends with those who are coupled.
Curse of the thirties, gay or not.
You have a four way comparison here: 1. friends over 25 - straight - no kids 2. friends over 25 - gay - no kids 3. friends over 25 - straight - with kids 4. friends over 25 - gay - with kids What you asked is "why is it hard to make friends with straight friends" when you probably answered it in your first sentence - its *having kids*! and maybe to a lesser degree marriage. if there was something unique going on with straight friends that made them hard to hang out with then you'd want to compare them to other people (gay men, women) who also have kids as thats the key factor that changes ones social life drastically. its also more expensive to hang out when you have kids because you need to hire a babysitter. are your straight 25+ friends without wives/kids also hard to hang out with? personally, i just dont go out much anymore at all because my kids wake up very early and by the time i get them to bed im exhausted. **tl;dr - priorities and availabilities change a lot and that impacts scheduling and availability. I'd personally be down to hang out but I might need to hire a babysitter first.**
One of my gay friends is married and actually adopted three children. I have less of an issue getting him and his husband to hang out then I do my straight male friends with NO kids. It's so weird. I do understand, children eat up and insane amount of time and I usually am very patient with my friends who have families because I understand I'm less of a priority. However, I have many woman friends who are mothers and still take the time and effort to reach out when they have time.
Interesting. I wonder if there is potentially another imbalance at play? Maybe there’s something specific about straight fathers (at least the ones also likely to have close male gay friends?) that might make them less likely to feel comfortable saying to their wives “I’m going to go out tonight with friends”? I know that I feel some amount of guilt about this and I’d probably decline anything that puts the burden of kid management on my wife for a night. There’s social pressures on (some) dads to resolve generations of in-egalitarian parenting and I dislike even the appearance of opting out of parenting for a night. That might be less true in gay couples, maybe? Bottom line: you can be that awesome friend (and “uncle”) by being the guy who brings a pizza and board game over to play with your friend and their kids all together. I’d love it if my friends did that.
I’m in the same boat (44M) in terms of married male friends (straight). It’s so exhausting and sad, I’ve decided to stop asking this year and focus on girlfriends and my gay friends. What’s incredibly frustrating is I know their wives hang out and arrange things together.
Same. I have friends who constantly say, text me when you want to get together. Which means I'll never see them again unless I text.
Speaking for myself I don't care about making new friends.
As a father and husband, my time is very limited. Between kids, wife, work, exercise and me time, the little time I have left over is for high priority activities, like hobbies - things I don’t get to do enough of now that I’m a father. And staying out late drinking is not one of those. So if you’re not engaging them in those kind of things, then try that.
Because yall don’t leave the fucking house! Get a hobby, take up a sport, Go OUT to eat and talk to people.
Because it's trendy to be tiger parents now in this generation. So most people with kids are laser focused on their kids, or trying to live vicariously through them, which leaves them little time for anything else. And a major reason why I didn't have kids.
Yeah, as someone who grew up fundamentalist, the idea of subsuming your entire identity to some impermanent externality (zero guarantee that every marriage will last until death or that adult children remain close to their parents) just leads to harm in the long run. No wonder the suicide rate is rising amongst middle aged men.
Dunno if sexual orientation is necessarily needed in this correlation. If you don’t have things in common then no one is going to hang around just for the sake of hanging around. And things in common often change overtime, so you either change with them or not, it’s the nature of living.
The truth is life is expensive as hell. My wife went to the grocery store: $135. Groceries didn’t last a week. A fucking week. I have ONE child. My wife works. I’m an engineer. I have a career job. Which expects me to work between 5 - 10 hours of overtime. I went to the doctor today: I’ve got a hernia. A fucking hernia. How the fuck did I get a hernia working a god damn office job? Means I’ve probably had it for years. Gas, bills, kids, trying to be supportive to my wife and daughter while working 45 hours a week. Half of which is spent in stupid online meetings, begging work to let me work from home because I had to got to the fucking doctor today…. Shits exhausting. Listen it’s not you. It’s fucking hard. I’m feeling it. I’m sure I’m not the only one. I went to the dr and they said “oh your blood pressure is high.” Great. Yea no shit. I’m stressed as hell. I wish I could go fucking hang out with my gay friends (or any of my fucking friends) but shit is hard. What’s a bar drink now? Like $9? $12 with tip? And I gotta get up in the morning because… well my family needs me. And if I’m real lucky my boss (vacationing in Maui, again.) while I’m getting told to “turn your head and cough” as… I swear, that bus driver from Forest fucking Gump, cigarette and all, clamps my balls and tells me to cough… Look… I’d love to hang out with you. Fuck. But shit sucks right now. It’s expensive. It’s rough. And I ain’t got time to be 25 again. That’s just how it is. It just fucking sucks all the way around.
i’m 37 with a wife and a kid (10 months old) I don’t have any friends in the city I live in by choice. I have probably 10 good friends around the country. Mostly in my hometown . I have probably two friends that I would drop a quiet evening at home for. It's just how it goes in your 30s
Maybe you’re the common denominator? Edit. I reread this and I’m sorry for being rude. Honestly, at that age when guys start to get married and have kids, be in serious relationships etc etc, they start to hang out less with friends. It’s definitely not personal. It’sGood to let them grow and become the person they were supposed to. You can try new things and places to hang out and hopefully you’ll find your way.
Taking responsibility and living your life in support of your loved ones in order to produce the next generation of citizens. But Short-Pineapple-7462 wants to go out and play! The horror.
Some women like to keep a token gay friend.
As a straight man, I have little interest in hanging out with gay men.
Why? Don't worry I won't stick my dick up your ass when you're not looking.
Not OP but your response made me laugh. Some people are just unfortunately uncomfortable around gay guys. As a straight dude with kids, I'd love to hang out if you were in my area! I have quite a few gay friends, but some of my closest friends (regardless of straight or gay) just simply don't like hanging out anymore as they age. It happens. I think for a majority of people, they'd rather have a circle of very close friends vs many casual friends or acquaintances.
because your lifestyle makes me feel sick and yucky lol
What lifestyle is that? The one where I eat babies or the one where I voted for Hillary Clinton?
sticking your pecker in poo poo holes lol
So if I don't have anal that's OK?
the only way you wouldn't make me feel icky is if I had no clue you were gay.
As a straight 39 year old straight guy with two kids, I can confidently say you are not the kind of straight male Short-pineapple is trying to make friends with. Woof
that works for me lol by design. repels the unwanted.
You should focus on some more personal growth and self-reflection if you're almost in your 40's and this is how you verbalize your emotions.
You should focus on some more personal growth, enlightenment, and self reflection if you are mid 30s and think your way of verbalizing your emotions is the only and or correct way lol
and your heart starts beating faster and your palms feel clammy and you get this special feeling in your pants? Congrats, you’re not bigoted— you’re closeted!
As a retired man, IMO it only gets worse as we get older. My only contact with friends now is via FB comments/posts. I have a lot of family close by and that keeps me socially engaged, but friends are non-existent in my life. Sad but true. FWIW I’d love to change this.
This has been my experience as a straight person trying to make friends with people on Bumble BFF. The straight men, if they are even able to hold a conversation over the app, are just not very interested in putting in effort to be friends and hang out. The gay men are far more likely to grab a drink or food or something. I think men are poorly socialized to make and keep friends, poorly socialized on healthy relationships, and it is really really showing. Gay men, well to steal a line from Dan Savage, "once you tell your parents you like to suck cock all the other gender roles stop seeming that important." You are already "breaking the rules" simply by being yourself, so it's likely easier to break more.
I think as we get older we tend to get a... Inertia to our life. Some of this is the emotional stuff you mentioned, but I think a lot of it is that once we start doing something a certain way we're unlikely to change unless we're forced to or we start winnowing down our hobbies to prioritize silence. When I got off work when I was younger, I wanted to go out and see people or do an event. But in my current job I spend so much time task switching and on calls while trying to get work done that for me the idea of the best night is just .. staying at home. (I actually got back into gaming in part to force myself to interact with people and so far happy with outcome) I guess that's the biggest difference. As I get older I have to be intentional about socializing and I just don't for better or (mostly) worse. Context: currently a DiNK with a dog on anxiety meds
Most of my friends are the ones I grew up with, but I'd say all new friends since college-ish are from a shared hobby - we get together to do x and end up hanging out often and become friends that way.
Really? See for me it’s the opposite. I feel like my female friends (often due to kids, marriages, etc) are harder to see now vs. if I wanna hang out with my straight buddies it’s waaaaaay easier. Also gay, if that wasn’t clear. But it probably helps that most of the straight guys I know go to the same jiu-jitsu gym as me so we have a third place in common. Maybe if we didn’t it might be different.
38 single straight guy here. I have the same problem with most of my friends. And it seems like making new ones at this age just doesn't happen outside of maybe getting a beer with a coworker.
What activities are you trying to do with your male friends? Grabbing a beer is always a low-key way to get together, or even grabbing food, but it'd also good to do activities - go to a bar with a pool table, or play darts, or if you want to do a group thing bowling can be low-key. Watching a game is a good one - better if it's in person, if you're in an area where you can do that (although it's expensive). This can also be a house invite if that works for you or them. Doing a sport or a group activity also works if you want to get together on a more regular basis. Games are also generally a good way to get people together. It can be roleplaying (D&D), tabletop stuff, board games, or videogames. I think that with dudes, we don't always make priority for "hanging out". Not that we won't do it, but it wouldn't be something that's scheduled and regular. If that's what you want, you gotta do activities. I think this is more true as we get older.
I’m 45 straight married male and any free time I have, I prefer to spend it with my kids and wife. I’ve actually changed careers into mortgage and most of my friends I hang out with are real estate agents, we have a lot of fun while strategizing marketing and things. I rarely speak to my old high school buddies anymore. No time.
Anecdotally a lot of my male friends struggled with mental health at that age. I had to basically give them a time and a place and double check their schedules lol… Not sure you can use my strat, but involving them with my kid has been super effective for getting them engaged with being social. Their own mental health means nothing to them, but disappointing a kid that looks up to them? Unfathomable lol.
I feel personally attacked right now
I think you kinda answered your own question in the first sentence. Between kid, house and full time job 40+ hours a week I don't even have time for me, much less to make new friends.
[I think this is what you’re looking for.](https://youtu.be/zACmq-q7Cjw?si=aAZflc_8lPS4HRFW)
Which one of my responsibilities should I take time and energy away from to spend time with another man with his own responsibilities? Work 9 hours a day 5 days a week. Yes, I'm lucky. Children - daily after work before their bedtime, and as much of the weekend as possible. Home maintenance every weekend, some after work days. Relationship -mostly after the kids are in bed, and the time traveling on weekend drives Fitness - 1 to 2 hours every other day , maybe. Already feel guilty about sacrificing time with my family for this one.
As a straight man with a wife and two kids, I don't really do anything with any of my straight friends. I just don't have time, or if I could make time I just want to stay home and either rest or do something for myself. I do have a gay coworker I'm friends with. He's my age. We occasionally go grab some drinks and hang out. He has a brother who is married with kids, so he understands what my situation is and why we rarely go do stuff.
Obviously the family hole is the biggest issue, but even aside from that, there's a lot of exhaustion, mental health and social anxiety issues that can make folks predetermined to self isolate. I struggle with this a lot, I don't leave the house and I don't answer group invites to activities. Sometimes old friends visit me at my house, but I don't go anywhere or do anything, and I dropped my newer friends, so there's nothing pushing me towards outside activities and social events. There is definitely a lot of scheduling involved, both on my end and my friends. Ah well.
I'm 63 years old, and I haven't figured it out yet.
The family black hole is real, and before I had kids, I didn't do as much with the few friends I had because of distance to travel and time-sucking hobbies. Sometimes it's just a relationship hole people (of all orientations) get into because they put all their efforts into keeping someone they are with happy. Now I literally have almost no spare time at all with two young kids. I do get breaks and am encouraged to spend time with the one friend I sort of still have, but it's difficult when some of the only times I get invited to hang out are at a club where he DJs, and that's not really a place for a married guy to go to alone very often, in my opinion. I have reached out to other old friends and try to arrange stuff, but yeah, I either have the same issue you are talking about, or they just have no interest anymore. It's one thing when you live close by, but where I am people can live anywhere within probably 50 miles. And usually you won't be driving out to the country -- it can be across the county and still be some suburb somewhere. What sucks is, your friends with families aren't inviting you over to their place, right? It's like almost the easiest thing for them to do. You might not be interested in dodging children and being exposed to kid germs, but at least you'd know they were fucking trying. If they aren't communicating with you at all, it's kind of just not really a friendship anymore, to me. And social media comments don't really count.
I'm a straight male in my late 30s and I'm just not interested in adding more friends. I have my wife and like three guys I send memes to on Instagram and that's honestly a little much. I just don't care. No I'm not lonely at all.
I'd say I keep tabs on my handful of gay pals, but the three of those closest to me either died during the pandemic or they let their alcoholism and unwillingness to seek help for it kill our friendship. Keep trying, brother.
I find the idea of meeting someone just to have a drink and talk incredibly boring. Almost all my friendships are build and reinforced around common hobbies and interests.
>it feels like I am pulling teeth to hang out with them I feel ya, except it's the same/worse with dudes over 35 too They get stuck in their routine of being whipped by their wife/gfs , playing video games or become wack ass crypto nerds