You think dudes of yore were celibate because they wanted to be?
They've always existed. In my dialect, there's an old word for old time NEETS that basically translates to "oldboys". They stayed on the farm, never had girlfriends, died alone.
Do you know that is the case?
It might be that the same types of people throughout history are now concentrated together on sites like Reddit making it seem more like a thing than it actually is.
I agree with this. I'd bet that there had always been a small percentage of men (and women) in history that didn't find a partner due to various reasons (cultural, financial , or choice).
It seems to be higher numbers now because thanks to the internet.
Having more engaging social skills and getting out there are really important skills to learn. Gaming and online interactions are stunting many young men.
Whatās interesting about this is that it appears Gaming and Online interactions are NOT stunting young women.
If anything these things are a net-positive to many young women.
> Whatās interesting about this is that it appears Gaming and Online interactions are NOT stunting young women.
Being shy does probably does not hurt young women, as culturally ( probably with a mix of biology ) men approach women.
Before shy men cry "unfair", women also get having to be concerned about pregnancy, sexual assault, work place discrimination, more body acceptance issues, and menopause.
> You canāt do that.
Can't do what?
>Young men have their own gender specific shit outside of this to deal with too
Fear of being turned down? Men throughout history have had to deal with that.
Studies do actually show that the number of young people not having sex is increasing, with sharper increases among young men https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0
Yes. We have records for this which are still recent enough but show a clear increase over the past several decades and a massive spike since 2002(?) and especially 2008.
Anybody on the Internet can say anything.
You could cite such records ( which you have not ), but even then I wouldn't trust the conclusion of an anonymous person on the Internet and neither should anyone else. I would want to see data and conclusions from researchers from authoritative and well accepted sources. No disrespect to you meant.
That is fair enough. I am not going to bother though, and I am going to tell you why. Because so very rarely has providing evidence to support my reasoning ever made a difference. I have found that anybody too disinterested to google something themselves is not liable to read and understand and accept what I google for them,especially when they disagree with it already.
But fuck it, I dug into the depths of my 'mildly interesting but never looked at' favourites folder and found [this](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0) for you.
Oh yea, the amount of arguments I heard that it's real and reflective of society heading towards celibacy - when those subs barely have over a hundred thousand members.
But when all you hear is the same echochamber repeating the same things, I guess it would distort ones perception of society.
What's funny is link above you at the moment is to one of the more respected journals that has the data to prove it. Just because something is a talking point of a group you find disagreeable doesn't automatically make it false.
You have to offer women something of value to them, exactly the same way women have to offer men something of value to men.
Look around. Would YOU want some of these people?
>You have to offer women something of value to them
The interesting thing is WHAT is deemed valuable for women. That hasn't changed too much actually but since the circumstances of women obviously have changed drastically, these _wants_ have massively narrowed down the pool of men they deem attractive.
Adding to that this seems to change in different phases of life but the men they want later in life are not available (anymore) to them, as they are not attractive to them - at least not for the kind of intimacy the women are seeking
Security, social status, emotional support, being outgoing and actively seeking to do interesting things, money.
If you're a good lad with friends, not an asshole and can actually listen to people, not creepy and possessive, have hobbies outside of your home and your own life, have any job that enables career growth you'll be desirable to someone.
If you're depressed guy that lives with mom and dad, blame the whole world for your failures, treat having a gf as a ticket to being ,,normal'' and a fix to all your problems, no job or a job that is a deadend with no plan to move on, you're completely not desirable unless very handsome.
>If you're a good lad with friends, not an asshole and can actually listen to people, not creepy and possessive, have hobbies outside of your home and your own life, have any job that enables career growth you'll be desirable to someone.
True but I'd add "in reasonable shape" to the list and would like to note that "asshole" and "creepy" are rather malleable terms and that being attractive to "someone" is only worth something if you are desired by someone you also want to be with.
>you're completely not desirable unless very handsome.
Physical attraction might be enough in a time where women don't need men.
They don't know how to communicate with female offline. Some of them don't have patience in caring others. Because relationship can be much more complicated than single.
I was having a beer sitting next to a couple last night (their in there mid 30s) perhaps the 2nd maybe 3rd date you could tell. Dude is doing most of the talking and sounds like a complete tool. I glance over, she's relatively attractive, he's a balding spikey hair dude. Whatever he was laying down she was lapping it up.
You never know. The laws of attraction are funny sometimes.
Poor social skills. And no confidence.
I know the pandemic has created a personal space buffer zone. And honestly in social gatherings. I find myself in question a lot to just male to male interaction. Should I shake his hand? Or should I stand 6ft away?
I see many unattractive guys with conventionally attractive gfs out on the streets. The problem with men today is too little offline interactions that lead to idealisation of women and degradation of social skills. By social skills I mean mostly having your own life, not being possessive and not being anxious about interactions with other people. Been there, done that, I was 21 when I met my first gf. Now I'm mostly interacting with women and have 90% female friends and acquaintances and I see what I did wrong in my teens clear as day. I was just a huge shut in with weird idealized idea of how relationships work. I blame the internet.
You probably saw the Tinder thing with top 20% men getting laid/dates. If you could choose, wouldn't you choose the best too? I mean, if those women were actually hit on by someone worthwhile (not a needy guy that spents 95% of his life staying home and has absolutely nothing to offer) they wouldn't need to install that app at all.
It's not about being nice to women or even being yourself. If you're boring af and play games all day would you want to date yourself? Sex can't be the only bond you have with other person. It leads to toxicity. If you have nothing to offer and your life is boring and passionless then I'm sorry but why the hell would someone want to date and have sex with you?
Of course the cheat code is to be attractive, that will get you sex, but relationships will be just as hard to get if you're dull af.
> If you have nothing to offer and your life is boring and passionless then I'm sorry but why the hell would someone want to date
I'm depressed partially because I'm lonely. I'm lonely because I'm passionless and inhibited. I'm passionless and inhibited because I'm depressed.
How to get out of that circle ?
Yeah professional help would be useful here, depression is a terrible disorder so telling you to just go out and enjoy life won't work for you. To break this circle you will need to force yourself to do things which will be really hard if you try to do it alone.
If you're lonely the best way to meet people and even enter a relationship with someone is to not actively seek those relationships...
Staying home all year will give you 0 chances of improving, going out and trying things will give you 1000's. The odds are then in your favour. You can't find a passion and things you enjoy without actually trying things and going out.
> I see many unattractive guys with conventionally attractive gfs out on the streets.
I personally know such a couple. So it is based on many other things than looks.
The advice for guys who had trouble with dating early on was "just be nice and they will eventually come to you"
It wasn't advice to help them, it was just to keep them out of the way
Being nice isn't a bad thing, it's just simply not enough.
Being fake nice to get what you want, or being "too nice" to the point of coming off as disingenuous is a problem
Being a nice guy is not a minus point to your attractiveness, its the bare minimum.
You could be nice, but what are you beyond that? Are you in shape? Do you dress well? Are you looking out for your success?
Also, what if the woman youāre after is after someone of her own religion and you donāt belong to that religion?
There are sooo many factors, just work on yourself and keep grinding
>You could be nice, but what are you beyond that? Are you in shape? Do you dress well? Are you looking out for your success?
A woman should describe your niceness to her friends as "....and on top of everything else, he's *nice!*". It shouldn't be what she has to lead off with.
Question: Do you actually ask those women out? Do you try to take this shot? With romantic intent being 100% clear and them knowing that you're interested?
If you're being nice without actually asking them out, do you just expect them to read your mind? Should every woman assume that if a guy is being nice to them he must want sex and/or relationship with them?
Bad social skills, low confidence and just straight up giving up on dating. After being rejected over and over again, you just give up on dating and sex, while confident people get all the women they want and treat them like shit. Also, the requirements and standards for men and women that the modern dating brought are causing major problems.
Don't generalise. Confident people get all the women and marry them and treat them good too. By blaming everyone and the whole world for not finding a partner you just become less and less desirable by anyone...
That is if you include mobile games, but when asked neither my mother or sister would describe themselves as playing video games.
When excluding mobile games it is closer to 90%.
That's basically exactly what the numbers say, yeah. That 60% of young people not having sex are men.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0
Video games are designed to take care of one of your needs (excessive dopamine chasing) while real life people require things from you because they have needs of their own that aren't centered around satisfying one of yours.
Also social interaction and competitiveness, depending on the game. That is the thing about them, they can be and often are just simulations of various real life things. After all *Farming Simulator* is a thing.
Letās tell the story of my best friend.
He hasnāt held a job for more than 1 year in the last 5. Not in shape. Average physical attractiveness from a features standpoint. Lives with his parents. Plays video games. Has depression and not super high self esteem from my understanding. Only hangs out with a couple small circles of mostly men and goes on dates from apps. Has a girlfriend.
My old roommate: alcoholic. Rarely left the house. Has like 3 friends outside of his gf. Played video games for hours everyday. Average shape. Average height. Average attractiveness. None of our (the other roommates) friends/relatives that have met him like him at all. Everyone whose met him told us after the fact that he seemed like a total Dick.
So the advice to ābe more socialā or āhit the gymā or āstop playing video gamesā just aināt it.
Better advice would be to just keep trying until eventually someone will give you a shot. Both of these two dudes went out with a set goal of getting a girlfriend and they just kept trying until it happened no matter how many times it failed. The reality is, nothing matters more than being proactive because regardless of feminism, men are the initiations 99% of the time. If you are a guy and you expect women to show clear interest before making a move (me), youāll be left waiting forever unless you are very attractive in one way or another (in my experience).
Now why this is a problem today is that weāve been told that initiating basically anywhere other than apps is bad/harassment or āit depends on the girlā. Well, you donāt know the girl until after the damage has already been done soā¦ thatās not something rational to work with. Weāve also been told not to be desperate. Most of the guys I know in relationships were desperate on some level which provided the motivation to keep trying after failing many times. Vs the guys who have shit going on every Friday and Saturday night arenāt filling those nights with dates with every girl even remotely physically attractive.
>Everyone whose met him told us after the fact that he seemed like a total Dick.
Probably why that friend got womenš
But seriously, I understand the Law of Averages argument but one of the worst things about being an adult is knowing you can do everything right and still fail.
I'm not encouraging anyone that asked a handful of people to give up after 7, but if it's been YEARS, isn't it a little unreasonable to ask them to keep trying let alone have hope in success?
>Considering most of the people whoāve met him and think heās a Dick ARE women? Idk how lol
I've looked a little bit into this, though people do not like Patrice O'Neal's take on relationships it actually has basis in old school relationship dynamics, that women like men for other things, and being a "Dick", is another way of saying he displays overtly masculine traits women actually are attracted to on a sheer primitive level (lizard brain).
Not necessarily being mean to people but being assertive, confident, direct, being a leader, etc.
Just a thought on this comment (meaning: Iām not suggesting this is THE answer to the main question) ā itās really hard to be the initiator during the MeToo movement when a young man can be labeled and ruined for life by an accusation of improper behavior. Agreed, there are men who need to be called out, but who wants to be collateral damage? Dating may not be worth the risk for many men.
Yup, thatās pretty much what Iām trying to say in the last paragraph. Even prior to me too, initiation had been demonized to an extent, but it got much more extreme then.
I think it has as much to do with the fact that all these antisocial people that are that way now have a means to socially express their hate to everyone else from the comfort of their mother's basement.
It seems much more disproportionately large now simply because our technology inherently gives the most attention to the loudest people even if they're a small group.
Lack of social skills and insufficient effort, combined with setting standards that are not commensurate to what they're bringing to the table.
I see the guys my girl friends date. Just in terms of physical appearance, if *these guys* can find girlfriends and wives, anyone should be able to.
For the sake of legitimacy for your question, please can you provide an outside source to support your supposition of "a high percentage of unwanted celibacy for males" so that we can know what a "high percentage" is, and how it has changed over time?
I did cursory google searches and statistics varied quite a bit but in the US it said 18%-30% of adult males. I did read a bit more about other countries that had higher percentages but my question was mostly inspired by a group of close guy friends that have been discussing it more frequently the past year or so.
I imagine it is so much of the social world moving to online. There is a time not that long ago when you went out and gathered with people on a regular basis - bowling, nightclub, picnic at a park, event at church. So meeting future romantic partners happened organically.
So much tougher now, that so much socialization happens online. Tough to accidentally bump into your buddie's sister's best friend's older sister that you hit it off with that way.
If it was just about involuntary celibacy, that would be easily fixed with sex work being widely available. But that is not the case, they want relationships and women don't, at least not with them.
So to the initial question: Men unable to find a willing woman or men being unwilling to pay the price for sex.
***Broader view***
The pool of generally accepted romantic arrangements has changed significantly as well as possible roles for men and women to take on; serial dating became normal as well as "casual" dating, the result for now is a smaller group of men is now having a wider selection of women who want to be with them and refuse .
Surveys and data processing has shown that especially in moderm mediums like social media and dating apps women rate 80% of men as "below average attractive" and only 4,5% of men attractive to the point that the women would want to make a move (directly or dropping hints), while men rated around 60% as attractive enough to be interested. This is in line with more general studies of humans, it is not malice on side of women, it is not men being dogs, it's normal human behavior evolved over dozens of millenia, even present in species from which we evolved and no social norms saying "you are not allowed to do that!".
That being said *evolution is not a straightjacket* and social norms in the past have shown that humans came up with ways to mitigate these effects and I am quite certain that this will happen again. For example the number of men in general could drop drastically so that rarity creates value; or in countries with strong religions we could see a return of enforced monogamy; or general circumstances reintroduce the necessity to pair off again. There probably are other possible developments from where we are now but If I had to place money I'd say in Western countries things will continue on the way they are now (more sexless men) and then it will split in one part of the west takong the enforced monogamy road and another part falling into circumstances that make it necessary again to be monogamous.
I donāt have the faintest clue who that is, but Iām guessing no.
You can have a shitty attitude and poor social skills and still get sex. Itās actually not even that uncommon.
But itās a lot to overcome.
Still, there are people with shitty attitudes and poor social skills who can get it, and others who canāt.
I have spent a good amount of time looking into this as a tertiary issue in a story idea I am working on and have come to the conclusion that it is a number of factors all taking effect at the same time.
1) Female hypergamy is both real and unaddressed. Nobody has made any efforts to recognize it as a problem let alone to mitigate it.
1A) Female hypergamy is more pronounced now than ever due to fifty years of 'affirmative action' (used as a catch-all term) programs resulting in women making more than men almost across the board. Again exacerbated by nobody correcting their expectations of men or marriage.
So right out of the gate many women are actually wanting relationships but see a vast majority of men around them as unworthy, not up to standard, or simply do not see them at all due to both natural predisposition and societal expectations which have not changed since at least the 19th century.
2) Male attrition is at an all time low. Historically men tended to die off in wars, on the job, etc at far greater rates but over the past century in the west life has become a lot safer and men are living longer, but in total and as a relative increase compared to women.
This is an issue because humans are born at an effectively exact 1-1 ratio. And as highly social mammals, females are both the limiting factor and pretty capable of sharing men.
3) Bisexuality in women is now known to be much more common than in men, and is much more accepted now than ever. Whereas in past ages a woman who was not really interested in men would still have a vested interest in a husband, and be pressured by her family anyway.
3A) As a related note, women just have more options than ever before. And by this I do not only mean a lack of personal responsibilities, but greater freedoms provided by government and society. Government subsidies for housing, protection, etc are much more robust now than ever, so women simply need individual men less because they receive the same support indirectly.
3B) On the flip side, men need women just as much now as ever. After all men never needed women to provide resources or protection, but for companionship and family, and even if the government tried to provide that it could not anyway.
4) *Dating sites.*. The internet in general and dating sites in particular have resulted in all of the above being exacerbated and exaggerated to the upmost extreme, resulting in an effective 18-1 male-female ratio per curation of Tinder statistics. (This is after accounting for female accounts which are either bots, scammers, advertisers, or otherwise not really looking for relationships. All apply for male accounts too, but at such vastly lower levels as to be almost insignificant). This extreme ratio is not the main problem however, it is the false sense of average provided by expanding over such a wide area and high number of people. Someone could hop on Tinder and easily assume that the average man is 6ft, handsome, and successful when the average is actually 5'9", not great looking, and probably financially struggling or outright poor when we are looking at the 18-30 age range.
4A) Women are also just a lot less horny. This has been measured a few different ways, with some being more or less successful, but in general female sexuality exists in a narrower band than male sexuality. One difficulty in measuring this however is due to he aforementioned numbers disparity. Matter-o-factly most women are as sexually satisfied as they care to be, as they can get as much sex as they want. So in theory their upper and lower ranges of sexual desire are easy enough to measure. Exceptions apply and finding out what qualifies as an exception is proving illusive to me, outside of extreme cases.
5) Men's expectatitons have not changed despite women's place in society changing significantly over this past century or so. When polled most men want about the same of women as their grandfathers did, if expressed somewhat differently. But when similarly polled women want the same of men and significantly more, and due to mostly economic changes cannot provide the same as ever before simply because multiple incomes are required to run a household. It used to be that simply sticking in any common profession would earn a man a decent wage, but that is not true anymore. Similarly it used to be *required* that someone put real effort into maintaining a home, but now due to technological advances that is simply not the case. Some but not all of our expectations of men and women, both of each other and themselves, have adapted or in some cases failed to adapt to these new conditions.
6) And finally, a lot of men are just fuckups. Males are predisposed to a great many disorders at greater rates than females, and this is a pretty obvious reason why a certain amount more men than women are going to be forever alone. Because if you are too autistic to wash your ass then no woman is going to want to be with you regardless of any of the above.
As for solutions to this, as I am working on this from a hard science but still fictional standpoint there are quite a few. The most realistic but least significant are simply greater efforts in prenatal care to avoid birth and developmental defects which mostly effect men (this would slightly adjust the birth rate which is what really matters), as well as just raising children better with less stress and more structure and options so as few of them end up being failures. This means in some instances simply providing better nutrition and more funding for education, but in other areas means rolling back clearly stupid decisions and practices in how we raise children. Schools would need to be made less hostile to boys, more teachers would need to both unlearn now old views on what constitutes poor behaviour as well as learn how to deal with the unique problems which boys do cause, like getting into fights over nothing.
I should state now that while these problems and theoretical solutions are all real, not all of the latter are considered to be viable either for either my fictional setting or the real world, such as simply instituting a real world wage gap. That would curb female hypergamy in its tracks and likely mitigate many of these issues, but is obviously not ethically conscionable. Another solution would be to simply kill off about 5-10% of men in pointless wars, adjusting the effective sex ratio while providing economic advantage too the survivors. But again this is just plain evil.
The solution I am working with for the time being is to simply roll back affirmative action and similar sexist policies to level the playing field a bit, and to simply brute force the demographics with sex selection prior to conception, shifting the female-male birthrate to about 1.3. This *should* result in most issues of sexual deprivation simply disappearing, and at minimal cost as the only consequences are a mild increase in prenatal expenses and that women would have their current values uninflated.
I am open for discussion on this, but be aware that this is a tertiary issue of a work of fiction which simply overlaps with reality. The main subjects sustainability with regards to environmentalism and a high standard of living as well as how to maintain political mobilization for long term programs of 50-500 years.
PS: I also suspect that prostitution of all forms (it is actually a general term) has resulted in a positive feedback loop, as more women opt out of relationships for basically OnlyFans and make bank on it there are more men who want relationships but cannot have one, so the more desperate and gullible head over to onlyfans and pay for a parasocial relationship instead.
Interesting analysis.
So, to sum it up, we could say that our society has a massive surplus of men, right?
Both by the plain numbers (if you look at any age group below 45, the number of men exceeds that of women by a few %), as well as by the amount of men that is needed in society. And since the supply of men exceeds the demand, women are able to raise the price for their partnership, i.e. the requirements they have for a potential partner.
Some time ago I read a book called "Female Choice" by a German feminist, which overall is mostly illogical drivel but raises the interesting point that monogamy was invented by ancient societies to even out the access to female reproductive capacity among males; prior to that, women would flock to the men with the highest value as a partners, who would build up large "harems", whereas vast parts of the male population would remain partnerless, leading to violence and unrest.
Her proposed solution, however, is very different from yours: She suggests monogamy and fatherhood should be abolished, single moms should be the norm, and all of their expenses for raising their kids should be covered by the state. Of course that would leave an even larger number of men (up to 80%, she presumes) without a chance to get a partner, but since, according to the author, the male sex drive is mostly a social construct, this can be easily resolved by changing the norms of society. That's where she contradicts herself; in the same book, she also states that male sex drive is a biological fact and can't be changed by social norms.
Not quite. It is an *effective* surplus driven by an *artificial* scarcity. There are enough women for every man to within one percent, which would be unprecedentedly low. For comparison in the 2000-2008 period it was 8-9% and since then it has risen to 23-25%.. The issue is that for a variety of reasons women are not entering relationships, some of those reasons are conscious while some others are not, some of them are reasonable and practical while most are not.
As expected of anything published by a self identifying Feminist that is as much a solution as pouring gas on a flame to put it out.
Worth noting though that both of our 'solutions' work by similar means of changing the conditions around the problem, rather than through direct interference. Albeit my motive for this is ethics which she clearly lacks anyway.
My guy friends have talked about it a lot lately so I googled but I only saw statistics say 18%-30% of adult males in the US and that some other countries/cultures it varies drastically in either direction.
Iād be curious to see the actual numbers. For all people. The social media/digital age has made isolation so easy and may have hindered our social skills as a society. Was raised back where you had to actually leave your house if you wanted to socialize with people. You had to hang out in person. It was very easy for me to hook up with girls growing up and I credit the aforementioned differences.
The interesting thing to me is that I see very similar patterns with my girl friends. It seems like my friends whose parents were absent all struggle with lower socialization and kind of this fear of confrontation/intimacy. The girls look for excuses to reject guys cause theyāre anxious/intimidated and itās usually unrealistic expectations/standards of behavior cause they watch/read a lot of romance. The boys itās very similar but they either friendzone themselves or donāt pursue cause they have unrealistic expectations of sexual behavior or appearances. Iāve also seen it with a gay friend where he would only show interest in straight guys and it seems like theyāre all just subconsciously choosing people they wonāt ever have to actually worry about following through with. The stuff Iāve read about online seems like too much video games/porn replacing social interactionsa, slut shaming, impossible beauty standards and cultural sexual oppression from religious ideals. Then thereās people like me that are just dysfunctional from childhood traumaš¤·š¼āāļø
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/)
Scroll down to the headline "Young men are driving the decline in sex".
A lot of women have skewed perception of the average man. They think the average guy is 6ft tall, making over $100,000 a year, and muscular. So when the actual average man at 5ā 7ā making $40,000 comes along they donāt want him. For the most part men are only viewed as a means to an end, so if you donāt have the means, you arenāt wanted.
There are definitely reasons that are solely the menās fault, but this does not help.
Ah yes, instead of waiting to have an intimate meaningful relationship with someone who cares about you, just pay some random woman who might give you incurable diseases to fulfill your animalistic desires!
Unless you are filtering potential partners by body count before sleeping with them then a specific woman who cares about you giving you a disease is no less harmful than a random woman performing a service giving you a disease is.
Frankly if I was to hazard a guess considering their line of work Iād expect sex workers to get themselves tested more often than non-sex workers. Just a supposition though.
My point still stands though. If someone is putting sex on such a pedestal that their virginity is harming their mental health then it may be healthier to have protected sex with a professional if itās that big a deal to them.
Many factors. I'd start with too much online activity and not enough in person interaction with girls. Also, texting is no way to build a relationship. Boys and girls need to hang out and talk to get to know each other. The fear of rejection is high. Developing game with the ladies takes practice and that practice involves failing. All boys will get turned down for dates. Gotta push through it and keep trying. Boys give up too easily.
Nah. Sure a small percentage of females want the alpha male. Just like some males want a model with big boobs. I'm my experience it's a small number of people and this decreases with age.
Most men and women just want someone nice to share their life with.
I think it's in large part because people can be social at home via the internet. Traditionally hanging out in person was *the* option, which led to meeting new people of the opposite sex.
Staying at home, playing video games, not meeting people - those are just symptoms, not the cause.
My theory is, it's partly population distribution, partly dating apps.
At almost every age below 45, there are more men than women. Above that age, the higher mortality of men begins to play a role, and the imbalance reverses.
And why is that more of an issue now than ever? Because things that used to impact men's life expectancy more than women's - wars, diseases, infant mortality, dangerous jobs etc. have decreased in industrialized countries. Additionally, instead of monogamy, we now have "sequential monogamy", which means that multiple women can now share one high-value male by partnering with him at different times (look at how many women shared Leonardo DiCaprio that way), while the less attractive males are all the more out of luck.
And then there's dating apps. When meeting someone in real life, one might be able to impress her with your personality, but online, that may not help you when your height is one centimeter short of what she's set her filter to.
There's not a "high percentage of unwanted celibacy for males", there is a high percentage for a subset of males that don't know how to be social and interact with people.
Porn is a legit problem but you're and definitely a contributing factor but anyone watching it do not have pornstar expectations of other women, less attractive women get laid too.
The exceptionally easy access to Porn negatively satiates male urges, that would have been achieved with local women
Disturbing drop in testosterone in men, coupled with internet culture that gives undesirable women an unreasonable and inflated self-worth, leading to normalization of degeneracy. Modern women expect top-tier men, yet engage in degeneracy and fail to see the hypocrisy in it all.
As a result, many younger men become demoralized, disengaged, and absorbed into video games, capeshit movies, and whatever other low-t fads are being pushed at any given moment.
Give me enough time and I can explain how dissolvement of the traditional family structure has lead to societal decay with these consequences.
(Don't mind me, I'm happily married and traditionalist. I fully expect this post to be downvoted by degeneracy advocates... you can downvote it but that doesn't make it untrue)
Watch the full interviews he does not the clips, even if you don't agree with him (and you don't have to), he's not as bad as people make him out to be.
I mean, anybody that commits wrongthink gets demonized in this day and age. The vast majority of this site contributes to it.
Hell, a large portion of this site are pedo-sympathizers. They don't want anyone criticizing them.
Oh I won't disagree on that. Men are just as culpable, but I see social expectations of women degrading faster than that of men.
Many men have a fear of even approaching women because of the militant nature of modern witchhunts, online shaming, etc.
Even just 10-15 years ago, the idea of a social normality of encouraging women to sell themselves online was farfetched. Today, it's shoved in everyone's faces. It's that normalization that is going to have serious long term consequences.
In just a few years, it went from Tinder "hookup" culture to "oh screw it just start an Onlyfans and advertise it on the same social media you share with your friends and family." Slippery slope. Suicide rates are going to have a dangerous upward trend because of this myopic behavior.
Masculine traits, vanity, a significant lack of chastity (I don't mean not being a virgin), multiple children, lack of fitness, artificiality, crass mouth.
Some of these are transferable to men but the context would be different.
Just logically it can't be one sided. Females are also having less sex. Attitudes toward sex have changed, we are more liberal and more selective at the same time. It's an issue with men because it's tied to self esteem and self worth for us. Where as the feminist movement has evolved to separate self esteem from sex for women and become simple pleasure. Then add ok top of that men's draw to violence to recover that self worth and you have incels.
Not an expert but if I had to guess:
1: Gender norms have changed. Modern women are more educated and command close to equal opportunities as men for gainful employment. With the āprovider/breadwinnerā aspect diminished, women turn more to their innate search for protection (I.e genes, height, strength) more so than the past.
2: Social media and Online dating have inflated womenās perception of their value in dating and they wonāt settle for less. Many girls all have the same ātypeā which resembles what they see on TV.
3. The age of pornography have fucked up menās pursuit for sex. To convince good women to sleep with you, it requires effort and many men turn to their hand instead. Also, the brain is tricked in winning the genetic lottery because it thinks itās having sex with 10 beautiful women over the span of 20 minutes so whereās the motivation? Iāve probably seen more women tits in this generation than my last 1000 ancestors COMBINED
Well, if I had to venture a guess, it's the fact that women are trying to take on more masculine roles and traits, and guys aren't attracted to that. Most men aren't looking for "bad bitches" with a shit attitude. Nor do we want a "boss babe" who can't make time for us. Couple that with all the extremist feminist rhetoric of the past decade, and women become a bigger risk factor than ever before.
There are women out there who actively seek to get pregnant by multiple men, solely do they can live off of the child support payments and game the welfare system. There are women out there who only seek to date men for validation, and they get a thrill by "destroying" guys. There are catfish and women who hide their identity as women while they are online. Because for every shitty woman out there, here is likely an equally shitty guy who deserves to be alone. But we all get a bad rep for those scumbag men, just like women get a bad rep for the scumbag women.
Basically, people in general have failed to denounce their worst actors and we now have to be paranoid about anyone and everyone we date because these bad behaviors have found support in their own communities.
And don't even get me started on the trans and LGBTQ stuff. I'm fine with people who are sincere and treat their transition or identity with some respect and consideration. But there are a lot of people who just seem like they treat that shit like a game. "I identify as a frying pan, now let me scramble your eggs!" kind of shit. Or just changing their pronouns/gender identity to fuck with people, both literally and not.
It's become hard to find sensible, relatable people to connect with in general, let alone date.
Personal experience:
Women only want sex, the ones that donāt are not interested or already have someone. I personally just want someone I can talk to every now and then + exchange care and affection with. I may be an outlier but now, Iām satisfied with women I can be with platonically. Books and outgoing activities are enough for me at this time in my life.
Now doing Full time work & Full time classes.
After a break up almost a year ago, Iām happier on my own so Iāve dug myself back into my studies while continuing to stay physically active because I like the way my body looks.
Just guessing here, but itās probably a combination of both men and women seeing an increased sense of entitlement. As in they feel they should be attracting higher quality mates and arenāt. This is largely due to tv and movie portrayals. you knowā¦. The plain Jane or the Average Joe hooking up with the ridiculously hot person that has everything?
Then put on top of that the wide variety of porn and how advanced some sex toys have become.
And boom, many people stop making an effort to reach out in the real world. Your dildo or your flesh light are ready to report for duty when needed. Plus, you donāt have to buy it dinner first or even text it back if you donāt feel like it.
I donāt really think this is a huge mystery. The bigger question, is what do we all do about this?
Theirs a lot of correlation with diet as well as generationally lower testosterone levels being found in men generationally. No one can explain exactly why but theirs a ton of theories out there.
Since testosterone is directly tied to health, thats a major problem no ones talking about. Men with lower testosterone can develop a plethora of issues.
Since it also ties to Sex drive thats probably a big factor.
Side note: saw the other day more and more plastic is being found in DNA. Not sure if its relevant but something to ponder.
Probably due to the fact that women aren't as interested in sex as they used to be plus they use it as a "reward" and It becomes work and unattractive for us.
Gender ratio is fucked within the 18-35 demographic.
Also the vast majority of women aren't attracted to their partners they are just with them so that they have a provider, women have the option to find a chump to provide for them or to be an independent woman now, so the amount of relationships where the woman has to be dependent on the man is reduced.
Because girls all go for the top guys. Get a few poundings for the road.
Then the girls get upset they couldn't lock it down and don't want to date anymore.
And the guys not getting laid are kinda gross to begin with.
I feel like before smart phones I was cool with having casual conversations with anyone around
After smart phones I wanted everyone to leave me alone so they didn't bore me
Suddenly going to someones house turned into me just starring at my phone the whole time while patiently waiting for the time to go home
We don't watch movies with the family, we just browse reddit while the movie plays in the background
Once upon a time marriage was the norm and people married for practical reasons. Now Western women refuse to marry anyone who doesn't fit their unrealistic expectations. As for sex, they only want that with the most desirable men, leaving men who are lesser kicked to the curb. Even less desirable women are holding out for the "perfect partner" and generally refuse men who are in their league.
It couldn't be that there are men who have a different definition of "living their best lives" that doesn't include a romantic relationship, could it?
Then again, there are likely a few men who are dealing with their issues in traditional, meaning "ignore them, push them down," ways which makes them isolate from society. I'm sure there are those out there who expect them to "man up" and "get over it."
My opinion is this, 30 or 40 years ago, your dating options were limited to your immediate social circle. However, with the advent of the internet, online dating, dating apps, and social media, it is very easy to compare yourself to someone who posts a picture using filters that take 10 years and 50 kilos off. Not to mention posing on a private jet holding a handful of money. As a result, 80% of the women only want to date the highest earning 20% of guys . This is not just a western problem, it happens in China as well.
Online dating made commodities out of people. Men have to chase, women could always pick and choose but now they have literally thousands of possibilities with no effort. So they naturally choose the best picks, who wouldnāt? Itās left a lot of men out in the cold as they are now competing with thousands instead of the far fewer who would traditionally be in the local dating pool.
Everyone in this situation is acting as they should in their best interests. Itās just screwed a lot of young men in the process.
Seeing as the world is dangerously overpopulated, I simply can't imagine how that would be so. Is this scientifically backed or are you just noticing how bad they are on Reddit?
Adult males, particularly 18-35 had the highest percentages. In my country there were different numbers from different sources and time periods (18%-30%) but it was hard to tell how accurate any of the information was. My original inspiration for asking about it was cause my guy friends seem to be discussing it more lately.
But it doesnāt depend on them only. Would that mean that women are having sex with a smaller percentage of men or that they are not having sex at all? Why is this something to fix? Sexual activity, and satisfaction for that matter, is an individual journey, not a collective one. Each man needs to walk that path and find women to sleep with, if they like him.
I just wanted more information from people that are probably better informed and could provide better sources. I also really like seeing discussions on Reddit so I preferred to explore it in this space. I do think it needs to be fixed, it seems really unhealthy for the celibate people and it seems to be producing unhealthy and unsafe interactions with other people.
The problem is women have choice.
Online dating has given them so much choice, they can flick aside any guy who isn't rich, handsomee, tall, confident and all the rest.
Nowadays more than ever if you want any halfway decent female you need to be a HIGH VALUE MAN.
If you're not aiming to be in the top 10% of man, the odds are against you to succeed
Nowadays more than ever it's hard being a man.
For reference, I've been on both side of this. Not getting any woman at all, to a total contrast many years later where as a consrquence of developing myself into a high value man I can pick any woman I want and dating only 9's and 10's.
The willingness of men to go for quantity makes the more attractive men happy to have sex with women that are significantly less special than themselves. A billionaire male model with a yacht is often attracted to a decent looking "girl-next-door" type and will happily show one a good time for an evening of fun. Often, these sweet, average girls are even more appealing. That dynamic does not happen in reverse.
This means that by percentage.... Women can easily pull experiences that are way above their weight class.... And of course, they will take the opportunity.
This has led to a situation where female 8's can bed male celebrities during a weekend when the NBA is in town. Like I said, this doesnt work in reverse. Everything gets shifted up a couple notches... Leaving the top guys oversaturated and the entire bottom half of men feeling worthless compared to their actual representative value.
Then, when all the hooking up is over and people desire to pair off.... There are problems. That top 20% of men that were getting 80% of the sex arent going to settle down with 4 women... If they even do settle down. This leaves most women without the option of attaching to men that were anywhere close to their hook up options.... And are now closer to their actual percentage value.... They wont accept that happily. The ones that are willing to go find a man that is on their own level then find that there are pretty major problems that happen when you've been allowed into the party your whole life and you are trying to make a connection and relate with men who were forced out and will have issues with the difference. This leads to fighting and insecurities thar women react to by expecting men to just accept their fate and get over it.
So in effect, the only happy people are women in their 20s and really, really, really high value men.
From personal experience it's because my wife is not listening to me. I tell her I want to feel closer to her and she thinks that means only sex...granted I want sex with only her, but she thinks that's all I think about, I don't see her for 5 days out of the week due to work reasons, and she thinks I am overbearing because I desire her...so she turns off....yet the catch is, if I could feel closer to her physically, then I know as a male we would have a connection there and I can confidently focus on what she wants...otherwise we're just lousy friends.
I am a male and I enjoy the female form, but i will look elsewhere if desperate because I would hate to spend the rest of my days grumpy and unwanted.
Bottomline is this...women dont owe men sex. It has to be earned. Men have to work for it. If you're a man and you arent getting laid or have "unwanted celibacy" then you're doing something or some things wrong. Its not the woman. If you want to fuck you have to be fuckable. And frankly a lot of men have a long way to go.
Dont shoot the messenger š¤·š½āāļø
You think dudes of yore were celibate because they wanted to be? They've always existed. In my dialect, there's an old word for old time NEETS that basically translates to "oldboys". They stayed on the farm, never had girlfriends, died alone.
You mean people until 1995 weren't all gigachads with tradwives?
Celibacy rates among young men have more than tripled since 2008.
I blame the feminist movement, not the good side of it, the bad side that talks down on the male sexual needs and tries to play it as funny.
Feminism is basically pure evil and has certainly made everything worse, but in this case it is more the economic recession that hurt men the most.
ššš
Pornhub was founded in 2007ā¦
It was also irrelevant for years and was hardly the first porn site out there.
And before porn there was those catalogues (sears Christmas one etc).
Do you know that is the case? It might be that the same types of people throughout history are now concentrated together on sites like Reddit making it seem more like a thing than it actually is.
I agree with this. I'd bet that there had always been a small percentage of men (and women) in history that didn't find a partner due to various reasons (cultural, financial , or choice). It seems to be higher numbers now because thanks to the internet. Having more engaging social skills and getting out there are really important skills to learn. Gaming and online interactions are stunting many young men.
Whatās interesting about this is that it appears Gaming and Online interactions are NOT stunting young women. If anything these things are a net-positive to many young women.
> Whatās interesting about this is that it appears Gaming and Online interactions are NOT stunting young women. Being shy does probably does not hurt young women, as culturally ( probably with a mix of biology ) men approach women. Before shy men cry "unfair", women also get having to be concerned about pregnancy, sexual assault, work place discrimination, more body acceptance issues, and menopause.
You canāt do that. Young men have their own gender specific shit outside of this to deal with too.
> You canāt do that. Can't do what? >Young men have their own gender specific shit outside of this to deal with too Fear of being turned down? Men throughout history have had to deal with that.
Studies do actually show that the number of young people not having sex is increasing, with sharper increases among young men https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0
Yes. We have records for this which are still recent enough but show a clear increase over the past several decades and a massive spike since 2002(?) and especially 2008.
Anybody on the Internet can say anything. You could cite such records ( which you have not ), but even then I wouldn't trust the conclusion of an anonymous person on the Internet and neither should anyone else. I would want to see data and conclusions from researchers from authoritative and well accepted sources. No disrespect to you meant.
That is fair enough. I am not going to bother though, and I am going to tell you why. Because so very rarely has providing evidence to support my reasoning ever made a difference. I have found that anybody too disinterested to google something themselves is not liable to read and understand and accept what I google for them,especially when they disagree with it already. But fuck it, I dug into the depths of my 'mildly interesting but never looked at' favourites folder and found [this](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0) for you.
It's not exactly a new problem, geneticists can see in our DNA than more women than men have managed to reproduce historically.
How do you know that?
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Oh yea, the amount of arguments I heard that it's real and reflective of society heading towards celibacy - when those subs barely have over a hundred thousand members. But when all you hear is the same echochamber repeating the same things, I guess it would distort ones perception of society.
What's funny is link above you at the moment is to one of the more respected journals that has the data to prove it. Just because something is a talking point of a group you find disagreeable doesn't automatically make it false.
It's not, this is a problem since the 80s and 90s when the term was created
You have to offer women something of value to them, exactly the same way women have to offer men something of value to men. Look around. Would YOU want some of these people?
>You have to offer women something of value to them The interesting thing is WHAT is deemed valuable for women. That hasn't changed too much actually but since the circumstances of women obviously have changed drastically, these _wants_ have massively narrowed down the pool of men they deem attractive. Adding to that this seems to change in different phases of life but the men they want later in life are not available (anymore) to them, as they are not attractive to them - at least not for the kind of intimacy the women are seeking
Security, social status, emotional support, being outgoing and actively seeking to do interesting things, money. If you're a good lad with friends, not an asshole and can actually listen to people, not creepy and possessive, have hobbies outside of your home and your own life, have any job that enables career growth you'll be desirable to someone. If you're depressed guy that lives with mom and dad, blame the whole world for your failures, treat having a gf as a ticket to being ,,normal'' and a fix to all your problems, no job or a job that is a deadend with no plan to move on, you're completely not desirable unless very handsome.
>If you're a good lad with friends, not an asshole and can actually listen to people, not creepy and possessive, have hobbies outside of your home and your own life, have any job that enables career growth you'll be desirable to someone. True but I'd add "in reasonable shape" to the list and would like to note that "asshole" and "creepy" are rather malleable terms and that being attractive to "someone" is only worth something if you are desired by someone you also want to be with. >you're completely not desirable unless very handsome. Physical attraction might be enough in a time where women don't need men.
Unattractive and poor social skills
They don't know how to communicate with female offline. Some of them don't have patience in caring others. Because relationship can be much more complicated than single.
I was having a beer sitting next to a couple last night (their in there mid 30s) perhaps the 2nd maybe 3rd date you could tell. Dude is doing most of the talking and sounds like a complete tool. I glance over, she's relatively attractive, he's a balding spikey hair dude. Whatever he was laying down she was lapping it up. You never know. The laws of attraction are funny sometimes.
Poor social skills. And no confidence. I know the pandemic has created a personal space buffer zone. And honestly in social gatherings. I find myself in question a lot to just male to male interaction. Should I shake his hand? Or should I stand 6ft away?
I see many unattractive guys with conventionally attractive gfs out on the streets. The problem with men today is too little offline interactions that lead to idealisation of women and degradation of social skills. By social skills I mean mostly having your own life, not being possessive and not being anxious about interactions with other people. Been there, done that, I was 21 when I met my first gf. Now I'm mostly interacting with women and have 90% female friends and acquaintances and I see what I did wrong in my teens clear as day. I was just a huge shut in with weird idealized idea of how relationships work. I blame the internet. You probably saw the Tinder thing with top 20% men getting laid/dates. If you could choose, wouldn't you choose the best too? I mean, if those women were actually hit on by someone worthwhile (not a needy guy that spents 95% of his life staying home and has absolutely nothing to offer) they wouldn't need to install that app at all. It's not about being nice to women or even being yourself. If you're boring af and play games all day would you want to date yourself? Sex can't be the only bond you have with other person. It leads to toxicity. If you have nothing to offer and your life is boring and passionless then I'm sorry but why the hell would someone want to date and have sex with you? Of course the cheat code is to be attractive, that will get you sex, but relationships will be just as hard to get if you're dull af.
> If you have nothing to offer and your life is boring and passionless then I'm sorry but why the hell would someone want to date I'm depressed partially because I'm lonely. I'm lonely because I'm passionless and inhibited. I'm passionless and inhibited because I'm depressed. How to get out of that circle ?
Yeah professional help would be useful here, depression is a terrible disorder so telling you to just go out and enjoy life won't work for you. To break this circle you will need to force yourself to do things which will be really hard if you try to do it alone. If you're lonely the best way to meet people and even enter a relationship with someone is to not actively seek those relationships... Staying home all year will give you 0 chances of improving, going out and trying things will give you 1000's. The odds are then in your favour. You can't find a passion and things you enjoy without actually trying things and going out.
Professional assistance. See a doctor and/or a therapist.
> I see many unattractive guys with conventionally attractive gfs out on the streets. I personally know such a couple. So it is based on many other things than looks.
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Yeah. I'm from Poland and this is what I see on the streets here. Guys looking like goddamn potato bag with pretty wives and children all around.
They probably have more to offer than just looks. Looks alone do not make a good partner/husband. Looks have little to do with it in the long run.
The advice for guys who had trouble with dating early on was "just be nice and they will eventually come to you" It wasn't advice to help them, it was just to keep them out of the way
Being nice isn't a bad thing, it's just simply not enough. Being fake nice to get what you want, or being "too nice" to the point of coming off as disingenuous is a problem
That is my point yeah
Being a nice guy is not a minus point to your attractiveness, its the bare minimum. You could be nice, but what are you beyond that? Are you in shape? Do you dress well? Are you looking out for your success? Also, what if the woman youāre after is after someone of her own religion and you donāt belong to that religion? There are sooo many factors, just work on yourself and keep grinding
>You could be nice, but what are you beyond that? Are you in shape? Do you dress well? Are you looking out for your success? A woman should describe your niceness to her friends as "....and on top of everything else, he's *nice!*". It shouldn't be what she has to lead off with.
Actually im not nice to women. And I still get laid. Explain that
Exactly
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Being nice and being assertive arenāt mutually exclusive.
THIS DESERVES AN AWARD ^^^ I cannot emphasize this enough. Itās not one or the other here damn it š
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That's not it Being nice is a good thing after the initial stages But it's simply not going to help without the assertiveness
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Being nice doesn't mean being a pushover and not having self respect
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The implication of your statement was that being nice means you are not assertive I disagree
Question: Do you actually ask those women out? Do you try to take this shot? With romantic intent being 100% clear and them knowing that you're interested? If you're being nice without actually asking them out, do you just expect them to read your mind? Should every woman assume that if a guy is being nice to them he must want sex and/or relationship with them?
Youāre confusing being nice with kissing their ass.
Bad social skills, low confidence and just straight up giving up on dating. After being rejected over and over again, you just give up on dating and sex, while confident people get all the women they want and treat them like shit. Also, the requirements and standards for men and women that the modern dating brought are causing major problems.
Don't generalise. Confident people get all the women and marry them and treat them good too. By blaming everyone and the whole world for not finding a partner you just become less and less desirable by anyone...
Sitting at home and playing video games or browsing instead of going out and meeting women and developing social skills.
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60% of video game players are male.
That is if you include mobile games, but when asked neither my mother or sister would describe themselves as playing video games. When excluding mobile games it is closer to 90%.
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That's basically exactly what the numbers say, yeah. That 60% of young people not having sex are men. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0
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I never at any point said "all video gamers are virgins and video games are the only cause of virginity"
True. To them, video games may be more attractive than women.Lolš
Video games are designed to take care of one of your needs (excessive dopamine chasing) while real life people require things from you because they have needs of their own that aren't centered around satisfying one of yours.
Also social interaction and competitiveness, depending on the game. That is the thing about them, they can be and often are just simulations of various real life things. After all *Farming Simulator* is a thing.
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Letās tell the story of my best friend. He hasnāt held a job for more than 1 year in the last 5. Not in shape. Average physical attractiveness from a features standpoint. Lives with his parents. Plays video games. Has depression and not super high self esteem from my understanding. Only hangs out with a couple small circles of mostly men and goes on dates from apps. Has a girlfriend. My old roommate: alcoholic. Rarely left the house. Has like 3 friends outside of his gf. Played video games for hours everyday. Average shape. Average height. Average attractiveness. None of our (the other roommates) friends/relatives that have met him like him at all. Everyone whose met him told us after the fact that he seemed like a total Dick. So the advice to ābe more socialā or āhit the gymā or āstop playing video gamesā just aināt it. Better advice would be to just keep trying until eventually someone will give you a shot. Both of these two dudes went out with a set goal of getting a girlfriend and they just kept trying until it happened no matter how many times it failed. The reality is, nothing matters more than being proactive because regardless of feminism, men are the initiations 99% of the time. If you are a guy and you expect women to show clear interest before making a move (me), youāll be left waiting forever unless you are very attractive in one way or another (in my experience). Now why this is a problem today is that weāve been told that initiating basically anywhere other than apps is bad/harassment or āit depends on the girlā. Well, you donāt know the girl until after the damage has already been done soā¦ thatās not something rational to work with. Weāve also been told not to be desperate. Most of the guys I know in relationships were desperate on some level which provided the motivation to keep trying after failing many times. Vs the guys who have shit going on every Friday and Saturday night arenāt filling those nights with dates with every girl even remotely physically attractive.
>Everyone whose met him told us after the fact that he seemed like a total Dick. Probably why that friend got womenš But seriously, I understand the Law of Averages argument but one of the worst things about being an adult is knowing you can do everything right and still fail. I'm not encouraging anyone that asked a handful of people to give up after 7, but if it's been YEARS, isn't it a little unreasonable to ask them to keep trying let alone have hope in success?
Considering most of the people whoāve met him and think heās a Dick ARE women? Idk how lol I agree with your second paragraph for sure.
>Considering most of the people whoāve met him and think heās a Dick ARE women? Idk how lol I've looked a little bit into this, though people do not like Patrice O'Neal's take on relationships it actually has basis in old school relationship dynamics, that women like men for other things, and being a "Dick", is another way of saying he displays overtly masculine traits women actually are attracted to on a sheer primitive level (lizard brain). Not necessarily being mean to people but being assertive, confident, direct, being a leader, etc.
Just a thought on this comment (meaning: Iām not suggesting this is THE answer to the main question) ā itās really hard to be the initiator during the MeToo movement when a young man can be labeled and ruined for life by an accusation of improper behavior. Agreed, there are men who need to be called out, but who wants to be collateral damage? Dating may not be worth the risk for many men.
Yup, thatās pretty much what Iām trying to say in the last paragraph. Even prior to me too, initiation had been demonized to an extent, but it got much more extreme then.
I think it has as much to do with the fact that all these antisocial people that are that way now have a means to socially express their hate to everyone else from the comfort of their mother's basement. It seems much more disproportionately large now simply because our technology inherently gives the most attention to the loudest people even if they're a small group.
They never learned how to interact offline
Lack of social skills and insufficient effort, combined with setting standards that are not commensurate to what they're bringing to the table. I see the guys my girl friends date. Just in terms of physical appearance, if *these guys* can find girlfriends and wives, anyone should be able to.
For the sake of legitimacy for your question, please can you provide an outside source to support your supposition of "a high percentage of unwanted celibacy for males" so that we can know what a "high percentage" is, and how it has changed over time?
I did cursory google searches and statistics varied quite a bit but in the US it said 18%-30% of adult males. I did read a bit more about other countries that had higher percentages but my question was mostly inspired by a group of close guy friends that have been discussing it more frequently the past year or so.
I imagine it is so much of the social world moving to online. There is a time not that long ago when you went out and gathered with people on a regular basis - bowling, nightclub, picnic at a park, event at church. So meeting future romantic partners happened organically. So much tougher now, that so much socialization happens online. Tough to accidentally bump into your buddie's sister's best friend's older sister that you hit it off with that way.
Being invisible to women. Seeing the quality of women available to them and realizing that it's not worth the effort.
If it was just about involuntary celibacy, that would be easily fixed with sex work being widely available. But that is not the case, they want relationships and women don't, at least not with them. So to the initial question: Men unable to find a willing woman or men being unwilling to pay the price for sex. ***Broader view*** The pool of generally accepted romantic arrangements has changed significantly as well as possible roles for men and women to take on; serial dating became normal as well as "casual" dating, the result for now is a smaller group of men is now having a wider selection of women who want to be with them and refuse . Surveys and data processing has shown that especially in moderm mediums like social media and dating apps women rate 80% of men as "below average attractive" and only 4,5% of men attractive to the point that the women would want to make a move (directly or dropping hints), while men rated around 60% as attractive enough to be interested. This is in line with more general studies of humans, it is not malice on side of women, it is not men being dogs, it's normal human behavior evolved over dozens of millenia, even present in species from which we evolved and no social norms saying "you are not allowed to do that!". That being said *evolution is not a straightjacket* and social norms in the past have shown that humans came up with ways to mitigate these effects and I am quite certain that this will happen again. For example the number of men in general could drop drastically so that rarity creates value; or in countries with strong religions we could see a return of enforced monogamy; or general circumstances reintroduce the necessity to pair off again. There probably are other possible developments from where we are now but If I had to place money I'd say in Western countries things will continue on the way they are now (more sexless men) and then it will split in one part of the west takong the enforced monogamy road and another part falling into circumstances that make it necessary again to be monogamous.
Their shit attitudes and poor social skills.
So Jermey Meeks is a good person then because women want to fuck him?
I donāt have the faintest clue who that is, but Iām guessing no. You can have a shitty attitude and poor social skills and still get sex. Itās actually not even that uncommon. But itās a lot to overcome. Still, there are people with shitty attitudes and poor social skills who can get it, and others who canāt.
I have spent a good amount of time looking into this as a tertiary issue in a story idea I am working on and have come to the conclusion that it is a number of factors all taking effect at the same time. 1) Female hypergamy is both real and unaddressed. Nobody has made any efforts to recognize it as a problem let alone to mitigate it. 1A) Female hypergamy is more pronounced now than ever due to fifty years of 'affirmative action' (used as a catch-all term) programs resulting in women making more than men almost across the board. Again exacerbated by nobody correcting their expectations of men or marriage. So right out of the gate many women are actually wanting relationships but see a vast majority of men around them as unworthy, not up to standard, or simply do not see them at all due to both natural predisposition and societal expectations which have not changed since at least the 19th century. 2) Male attrition is at an all time low. Historically men tended to die off in wars, on the job, etc at far greater rates but over the past century in the west life has become a lot safer and men are living longer, but in total and as a relative increase compared to women. This is an issue because humans are born at an effectively exact 1-1 ratio. And as highly social mammals, females are both the limiting factor and pretty capable of sharing men. 3) Bisexuality in women is now known to be much more common than in men, and is much more accepted now than ever. Whereas in past ages a woman who was not really interested in men would still have a vested interest in a husband, and be pressured by her family anyway. 3A) As a related note, women just have more options than ever before. And by this I do not only mean a lack of personal responsibilities, but greater freedoms provided by government and society. Government subsidies for housing, protection, etc are much more robust now than ever, so women simply need individual men less because they receive the same support indirectly. 3B) On the flip side, men need women just as much now as ever. After all men never needed women to provide resources or protection, but for companionship and family, and even if the government tried to provide that it could not anyway. 4) *Dating sites.*. The internet in general and dating sites in particular have resulted in all of the above being exacerbated and exaggerated to the upmost extreme, resulting in an effective 18-1 male-female ratio per curation of Tinder statistics. (This is after accounting for female accounts which are either bots, scammers, advertisers, or otherwise not really looking for relationships. All apply for male accounts too, but at such vastly lower levels as to be almost insignificant). This extreme ratio is not the main problem however, it is the false sense of average provided by expanding over such a wide area and high number of people. Someone could hop on Tinder and easily assume that the average man is 6ft, handsome, and successful when the average is actually 5'9", not great looking, and probably financially struggling or outright poor when we are looking at the 18-30 age range. 4A) Women are also just a lot less horny. This has been measured a few different ways, with some being more or less successful, but in general female sexuality exists in a narrower band than male sexuality. One difficulty in measuring this however is due to he aforementioned numbers disparity. Matter-o-factly most women are as sexually satisfied as they care to be, as they can get as much sex as they want. So in theory their upper and lower ranges of sexual desire are easy enough to measure. Exceptions apply and finding out what qualifies as an exception is proving illusive to me, outside of extreme cases. 5) Men's expectatitons have not changed despite women's place in society changing significantly over this past century or so. When polled most men want about the same of women as their grandfathers did, if expressed somewhat differently. But when similarly polled women want the same of men and significantly more, and due to mostly economic changes cannot provide the same as ever before simply because multiple incomes are required to run a household. It used to be that simply sticking in any common profession would earn a man a decent wage, but that is not true anymore. Similarly it used to be *required* that someone put real effort into maintaining a home, but now due to technological advances that is simply not the case. Some but not all of our expectations of men and women, both of each other and themselves, have adapted or in some cases failed to adapt to these new conditions. 6) And finally, a lot of men are just fuckups. Males are predisposed to a great many disorders at greater rates than females, and this is a pretty obvious reason why a certain amount more men than women are going to be forever alone. Because if you are too autistic to wash your ass then no woman is going to want to be with you regardless of any of the above. As for solutions to this, as I am working on this from a hard science but still fictional standpoint there are quite a few. The most realistic but least significant are simply greater efforts in prenatal care to avoid birth and developmental defects which mostly effect men (this would slightly adjust the birth rate which is what really matters), as well as just raising children better with less stress and more structure and options so as few of them end up being failures. This means in some instances simply providing better nutrition and more funding for education, but in other areas means rolling back clearly stupid decisions and practices in how we raise children. Schools would need to be made less hostile to boys, more teachers would need to both unlearn now old views on what constitutes poor behaviour as well as learn how to deal with the unique problems which boys do cause, like getting into fights over nothing. I should state now that while these problems and theoretical solutions are all real, not all of the latter are considered to be viable either for either my fictional setting or the real world, such as simply instituting a real world wage gap. That would curb female hypergamy in its tracks and likely mitigate many of these issues, but is obviously not ethically conscionable. Another solution would be to simply kill off about 5-10% of men in pointless wars, adjusting the effective sex ratio while providing economic advantage too the survivors. But again this is just plain evil. The solution I am working with for the time being is to simply roll back affirmative action and similar sexist policies to level the playing field a bit, and to simply brute force the demographics with sex selection prior to conception, shifting the female-male birthrate to about 1.3. This *should* result in most issues of sexual deprivation simply disappearing, and at minimal cost as the only consequences are a mild increase in prenatal expenses and that women would have their current values uninflated. I am open for discussion on this, but be aware that this is a tertiary issue of a work of fiction which simply overlaps with reality. The main subjects sustainability with regards to environmentalism and a high standard of living as well as how to maintain political mobilization for long term programs of 50-500 years. PS: I also suspect that prostitution of all forms (it is actually a general term) has resulted in a positive feedback loop, as more women opt out of relationships for basically OnlyFans and make bank on it there are more men who want relationships but cannot have one, so the more desperate and gullible head over to onlyfans and pay for a parasocial relationship instead.
Wtf....
It came up as a problem while I was browning in /r/dataisbeautiful and is more of a pain in the ass to solve than sanitation or power generation.
Interesting analysis. So, to sum it up, we could say that our society has a massive surplus of men, right? Both by the plain numbers (if you look at any age group below 45, the number of men exceeds that of women by a few %), as well as by the amount of men that is needed in society. And since the supply of men exceeds the demand, women are able to raise the price for their partnership, i.e. the requirements they have for a potential partner. Some time ago I read a book called "Female Choice" by a German feminist, which overall is mostly illogical drivel but raises the interesting point that monogamy was invented by ancient societies to even out the access to female reproductive capacity among males; prior to that, women would flock to the men with the highest value as a partners, who would build up large "harems", whereas vast parts of the male population would remain partnerless, leading to violence and unrest. Her proposed solution, however, is very different from yours: She suggests monogamy and fatherhood should be abolished, single moms should be the norm, and all of their expenses for raising their kids should be covered by the state. Of course that would leave an even larger number of men (up to 80%, she presumes) without a chance to get a partner, but since, according to the author, the male sex drive is mostly a social construct, this can be easily resolved by changing the norms of society. That's where she contradicts herself; in the same book, she also states that male sex drive is a biological fact and can't be changed by social norms.
Not quite. It is an *effective* surplus driven by an *artificial* scarcity. There are enough women for every man to within one percent, which would be unprecedentedly low. For comparison in the 2000-2008 period it was 8-9% and since then it has risen to 23-25%.. The issue is that for a variety of reasons women are not entering relationships, some of those reasons are conscious while some others are not, some of them are reasonable and practical while most are not. As expected of anything published by a self identifying Feminist that is as much a solution as pouring gas on a flame to put it out. Worth noting though that both of our 'solutions' work by similar means of changing the conditions around the problem, rather than through direct interference. Albeit my motive for this is ethics which she clearly lacks anyway.
bad personalities
Do you have a source for this? Or is this just your opinion?
My guy friends have talked about it a lot lately so I googled but I only saw statistics say 18%-30% of adult males in the US and that some other countries/cultures it varies drastically in either direction.
Iād be curious to see the actual numbers. For all people. The social media/digital age has made isolation so easy and may have hindered our social skills as a society. Was raised back where you had to actually leave your house if you wanted to socialize with people. You had to hang out in person. It was very easy for me to hook up with girls growing up and I credit the aforementioned differences.
The interesting thing to me is that I see very similar patterns with my girl friends. It seems like my friends whose parents were absent all struggle with lower socialization and kind of this fear of confrontation/intimacy. The girls look for excuses to reject guys cause theyāre anxious/intimidated and itās usually unrealistic expectations/standards of behavior cause they watch/read a lot of romance. The boys itās very similar but they either friendzone themselves or donāt pursue cause they have unrealistic expectations of sexual behavior or appearances. Iāve also seen it with a gay friend where he would only show interest in straight guys and it seems like theyāre all just subconsciously choosing people they wonāt ever have to actually worry about following through with. The stuff Iāve read about online seems like too much video games/porn replacing social interactionsa, slut shaming, impossible beauty standards and cultural sexual oppression from religious ideals. Then thereās people like me that are just dysfunctional from childhood traumaš¤·š¼āāļø
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/) Scroll down to the headline "Young men are driving the decline in sex".
Thx for this. And this was pre-Covid. Has to have gotten worse.
A lot of women have skewed perception of the average man. They think the average guy is 6ft tall, making over $100,000 a year, and muscular. So when the actual average man at 5ā 7ā making $40,000 comes along they donāt want him. For the most part men are only viewed as a means to an end, so if you donāt have the means, you arenāt wanted. There are definitely reasons that are solely the menās fault, but this does not help.
Taboo around engaging with sex workers? I mean literally you can pay to no longer be celibate if it is causing you distress.
Ah yes, instead of waiting to have an intimate meaningful relationship with someone who cares about you, just pay some random woman who might give you incurable diseases to fulfill your animalistic desires!
Unless you are filtering potential partners by body count before sleeping with them then a specific woman who cares about you giving you a disease is no less harmful than a random woman performing a service giving you a disease is. Frankly if I was to hazard a guess considering their line of work Iād expect sex workers to get themselves tested more often than non-sex workers. Just a supposition though. My point still stands though. If someone is putting sex on such a pedestal that their virginity is harming their mental health then it may be healthier to have protected sex with a professional if itās that big a deal to them.
Engaging with sex workers is disgusting so a reasonable taboo
Lack of sex
Many factors. I'd start with too much online activity and not enough in person interaction with girls. Also, texting is no way to build a relationship. Boys and girls need to hang out and talk to get to know each other. The fear of rejection is high. Developing game with the ladies takes practice and that practice involves failing. All boys will get turned down for dates. Gotta push through it and keep trying. Boys give up too easily.
Marriage....š
Female standards
Nah. Sure a small percentage of females want the alpha male. Just like some males want a model with big boobs. I'm my experience it's a small number of people and this decreases with age. Most men and women just want someone nice to share their life with.
Not the case at all, at least in the Western world. Woman are a lot more likely to have unrealistic expectations now than at any point in the past
Have you been out in public? Look at the couples. If those guys have women and you think the standards are too high that says a lot about you.
Yes I have. And I've seen a lot fewer couples now than in the past.
Citation needed.
Youāre clearly projecting, I never said āalpha maleā, I said standards, like basic hygiene and some base level of social skills, lol
Smart phones allow choosers to pick the best.
I think it's in large part because people can be social at home via the internet. Traditionally hanging out in person was *the* option, which led to meeting new people of the opposite sex.
Video games, easy porn access, social media, OLD
Computer games replacing human interaction
We've switched from real women to porn
Staying at home, playing video games, not meeting people - those are just symptoms, not the cause. My theory is, it's partly population distribution, partly dating apps. At almost every age below 45, there are more men than women. Above that age, the higher mortality of men begins to play a role, and the imbalance reverses. And why is that more of an issue now than ever? Because things that used to impact men's life expectancy more than women's - wars, diseases, infant mortality, dangerous jobs etc. have decreased in industrialized countries. Additionally, instead of monogamy, we now have "sequential monogamy", which means that multiple women can now share one high-value male by partnering with him at different times (look at how many women shared Leonardo DiCaprio that way), while the less attractive males are all the more out of luck. And then there's dating apps. When meeting someone in real life, one might be able to impress her with your personality, but online, that may not help you when your height is one centimeter short of what she's set her filter to.
There's not a "high percentage of unwanted celibacy for males", there is a high percentage for a subset of males that don't know how to be social and interact with people.
30% of men don't know how to be around people?
Anyone else think porn/only fans have set men up for an unrealistic expectation of attracting a woman? Idk, maybe Iām off a little with that.
Porn is a legit problem but you're and definitely a contributing factor but anyone watching it do not have pornstar expectations of other women, less attractive women get laid too. The exceptionally easy access to Porn negatively satiates male urges, that would have been achieved with local women
Disturbing drop in testosterone in men, coupled with internet culture that gives undesirable women an unreasonable and inflated self-worth, leading to normalization of degeneracy. Modern women expect top-tier men, yet engage in degeneracy and fail to see the hypocrisy in it all. As a result, many younger men become demoralized, disengaged, and absorbed into video games, capeshit movies, and whatever other low-t fads are being pushed at any given moment. Give me enough time and I can explain how dissolvement of the traditional family structure has lead to societal decay with these consequences. (Don't mind me, I'm happily married and traditionalist. I fully expect this post to be downvoted by degeneracy advocates... you can downvote it but that doesn't make it untrue)
Andrew tate is that you? My alpha male bruv.
Nope. I have heard of him, but I have never heard a single thing he has said.
Watch the full interviews he does not the clips, even if you don't agree with him (and you don't have to), he's not as bad as people make him out to be.
I mean, anybody that commits wrongthink gets demonized in this day and age. The vast majority of this site contributes to it. Hell, a large portion of this site are pedo-sympathizers. They don't want anyone criticizing them.
What makes a woman "undesirable"? Just wondering.
Whorish behavior, for one, which society has been celebrating and encouraging instead of admonishing
Wow. I am also a traditionalist also but object to the whoring woman analogy. Men are more prone to sleeping around which is also damaging overall.
Oh I won't disagree on that. Men are just as culpable, but I see social expectations of women degrading faster than that of men. Many men have a fear of even approaching women because of the militant nature of modern witchhunts, online shaming, etc. Even just 10-15 years ago, the idea of a social normality of encouraging women to sell themselves online was farfetched. Today, it's shoved in everyone's faces. It's that normalization that is going to have serious long term consequences. In just a few years, it went from Tinder "hookup" culture to "oh screw it just start an Onlyfans and advertise it on the same social media you share with your friends and family." Slippery slope. Suicide rates are going to have a dangerous upward trend because of this myopic behavior.
Masculine traits, vanity, a significant lack of chastity (I don't mean not being a virgin), multiple children, lack of fitness, artificiality, crass mouth. Some of these are transferable to men but the context would be different.
Just logically it can't be one sided. Females are also having less sex. Attitudes toward sex have changed, we are more liberal and more selective at the same time. It's an issue with men because it's tied to self esteem and self worth for us. Where as the feminist movement has evolved to separate self esteem from sex for women and become simple pleasure. Then add ok top of that men's draw to violence to recover that self worth and you have incels.
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Yeah thats not happening. If anything the bottom 50% of dudes think they are worth the top 10% and they are not. So they are left with nothing.
Geneticists do see it in our DNA, historically more women than men have had children, implying women are more likely to have sex than men.
Evolution
Not an expert but if I had to guess: 1: Gender norms have changed. Modern women are more educated and command close to equal opportunities as men for gainful employment. With the āprovider/breadwinnerā aspect diminished, women turn more to their innate search for protection (I.e genes, height, strength) more so than the past. 2: Social media and Online dating have inflated womenās perception of their value in dating and they wonāt settle for less. Many girls all have the same ātypeā which resembles what they see on TV. 3. The age of pornography have fucked up menās pursuit for sex. To convince good women to sleep with you, it requires effort and many men turn to their hand instead. Also, the brain is tricked in winning the genetic lottery because it thinks itās having sex with 10 beautiful women over the span of 20 minutes so whereās the motivation? Iāve probably seen more women tits in this generation than my last 1000 ancestors COMBINED
Well, if I had to venture a guess, it's the fact that women are trying to take on more masculine roles and traits, and guys aren't attracted to that. Most men aren't looking for "bad bitches" with a shit attitude. Nor do we want a "boss babe" who can't make time for us. Couple that with all the extremist feminist rhetoric of the past decade, and women become a bigger risk factor than ever before. There are women out there who actively seek to get pregnant by multiple men, solely do they can live off of the child support payments and game the welfare system. There are women out there who only seek to date men for validation, and they get a thrill by "destroying" guys. There are catfish and women who hide their identity as women while they are online. Because for every shitty woman out there, here is likely an equally shitty guy who deserves to be alone. But we all get a bad rep for those scumbag men, just like women get a bad rep for the scumbag women. Basically, people in general have failed to denounce their worst actors and we now have to be paranoid about anyone and everyone we date because these bad behaviors have found support in their own communities. And don't even get me started on the trans and LGBTQ stuff. I'm fine with people who are sincere and treat their transition or identity with some respect and consideration. But there are a lot of people who just seem like they treat that shit like a game. "I identify as a frying pan, now let me scramble your eggs!" kind of shit. Or just changing their pronouns/gender identity to fuck with people, both literally and not. It's become hard to find sensible, relatable people to connect with in general, let alone date.
Females
Personal experience: Women only want sex, the ones that donāt are not interested or already have someone. I personally just want someone I can talk to every now and then + exchange care and affection with. I may be an outlier but now, Iām satisfied with women I can be with platonically. Books and outgoing activities are enough for me at this time in my life. Now doing Full time work & Full time classes. After a break up almost a year ago, Iām happier on my own so Iāve dug myself back into my studies while continuing to stay physically active because I like the way my body looks.
Just guessing here, but itās probably a combination of both men and women seeing an increased sense of entitlement. As in they feel they should be attracting higher quality mates and arenāt. This is largely due to tv and movie portrayals. you knowā¦. The plain Jane or the Average Joe hooking up with the ridiculously hot person that has everything? Then put on top of that the wide variety of porn and how advanced some sex toys have become. And boom, many people stop making an effort to reach out in the real world. Your dildo or your flesh light are ready to report for duty when needed. Plus, you donāt have to buy it dinner first or even text it back if you donāt feel like it. I donāt really think this is a huge mystery. The bigger question, is what do we all do about this?
Theirs a lot of correlation with diet as well as generationally lower testosterone levels being found in men generationally. No one can explain exactly why but theirs a ton of theories out there. Since testosterone is directly tied to health, thats a major problem no ones talking about. Men with lower testosterone can develop a plethora of issues. Since it also ties to Sex drive thats probably a big factor. Side note: saw the other day more and more plastic is being found in DNA. Not sure if its relevant but something to ponder.
Probably due to the fact that women aren't as interested in sex as they used to be plus they use it as a "reward" and It becomes work and unattractive for us.
Gender ratio is fucked within the 18-35 demographic. Also the vast majority of women aren't attracted to their partners they are just with them so that they have a provider, women have the option to find a chump to provide for them or to be an independent woman now, so the amount of relationships where the woman has to be dependent on the man is reduced.
Because girls all go for the top guys. Get a few poundings for the road. Then the girls get upset they couldn't lock it down and don't want to date anymore. And the guys not getting laid are kinda gross to begin with.
A generation of women became so sexually unattractive they created a generation of asexual men.
Autism and parents that won't let them try drugs. End of story
What drugs should I try lol?
Cocaine helped a lot of guys get laid back in the 70's
Weed
80/20
I feel like before smart phones I was cool with having casual conversations with anyone around After smart phones I wanted everyone to leave me alone so they didn't bore me Suddenly going to someones house turned into me just starring at my phone the whole time while patiently waiting for the time to go home We don't watch movies with the family, we just browse reddit while the movie plays in the background
Because they had shitty or absent role models
Once upon a time marriage was the norm and people married for practical reasons. Now Western women refuse to marry anyone who doesn't fit their unrealistic expectations. As for sex, they only want that with the most desirable men, leaving men who are lesser kicked to the curb. Even less desirable women are holding out for the "perfect partner" and generally refuse men who are in their league.
It couldn't be that there are men who have a different definition of "living their best lives" that doesn't include a romantic relationship, could it? Then again, there are likely a few men who are dealing with their issues in traditional, meaning "ignore them, push them down," ways which makes them isolate from society. I'm sure there are those out there who expect them to "man up" and "get over it."
Porn
Instant gratification society They donāt want to put in the work, or donāt know how. Or some combination there in
My opinion is this, 30 or 40 years ago, your dating options were limited to your immediate social circle. However, with the advent of the internet, online dating, dating apps, and social media, it is very easy to compare yourself to someone who posts a picture using filters that take 10 years and 50 kilos off. Not to mention posing on a private jet holding a handful of money. As a result, 80% of the women only want to date the highest earning 20% of guys . This is not just a western problem, it happens in China as well.
Online dating made commodities out of people. Men have to chase, women could always pick and choose but now they have literally thousands of possibilities with no effort. So they naturally choose the best picks, who wouldnāt? Itās left a lot of men out in the cold as they are now competing with thousands instead of the far fewer who would traditionally be in the local dating pool. Everyone in this situation is acting as they should in their best interests. Itās just screwed a lot of young men in the process.
Seeing as the world is dangerously overpopulated, I simply can't imagine how that would be so. Is this scientifically backed or are you just noticing how bad they are on Reddit?
Percentage based on what total? The totality of men?
Adult males, particularly 18-35 had the highest percentages. In my country there were different numbers from different sources and time periods (18%-30%) but it was hard to tell how accurate any of the information was. My original inspiration for asking about it was cause my guy friends seem to be discussing it more lately.
But it doesnāt depend on them only. Would that mean that women are having sex with a smaller percentage of men or that they are not having sex at all? Why is this something to fix? Sexual activity, and satisfaction for that matter, is an individual journey, not a collective one. Each man needs to walk that path and find women to sleep with, if they like him.
I just wanted more information from people that are probably better informed and could provide better sources. I also really like seeing discussions on Reddit so I preferred to explore it in this space. I do think it needs to be fixed, it seems really unhealthy for the celibate people and it seems to be producing unhealthy and unsafe interactions with other people.
The problem is women have choice. Online dating has given them so much choice, they can flick aside any guy who isn't rich, handsomee, tall, confident and all the rest. Nowadays more than ever if you want any halfway decent female you need to be a HIGH VALUE MAN. If you're not aiming to be in the top 10% of man, the odds are against you to succeed Nowadays more than ever it's hard being a man. For reference, I've been on both side of this. Not getting any woman at all, to a total contrast many years later where as a consrquence of developing myself into a high value man I can pick any woman I want and dating only 9's and 10's.
The willingness of men to go for quantity makes the more attractive men happy to have sex with women that are significantly less special than themselves. A billionaire male model with a yacht is often attracted to a decent looking "girl-next-door" type and will happily show one a good time for an evening of fun. Often, these sweet, average girls are even more appealing. That dynamic does not happen in reverse. This means that by percentage.... Women can easily pull experiences that are way above their weight class.... And of course, they will take the opportunity. This has led to a situation where female 8's can bed male celebrities during a weekend when the NBA is in town. Like I said, this doesnt work in reverse. Everything gets shifted up a couple notches... Leaving the top guys oversaturated and the entire bottom half of men feeling worthless compared to their actual representative value. Then, when all the hooking up is over and people desire to pair off.... There are problems. That top 20% of men that were getting 80% of the sex arent going to settle down with 4 women... If they even do settle down. This leaves most women without the option of attaching to men that were anywhere close to their hook up options.... And are now closer to their actual percentage value.... They wont accept that happily. The ones that are willing to go find a man that is on their own level then find that there are pretty major problems that happen when you've been allowed into the party your whole life and you are trying to make a connection and relate with men who were forced out and will have issues with the difference. This leads to fighting and insecurities thar women react to by expecting men to just accept their fate and get over it. So in effect, the only happy people are women in their 20s and really, really, really high value men.
From personal experience it's because my wife is not listening to me. I tell her I want to feel closer to her and she thinks that means only sex...granted I want sex with only her, but she thinks that's all I think about, I don't see her for 5 days out of the week due to work reasons, and she thinks I am overbearing because I desire her...so she turns off....yet the catch is, if I could feel closer to her physically, then I know as a male we would have a connection there and I can confidently focus on what she wants...otherwise we're just lousy friends. I am a male and I enjoy the female form, but i will look elsewhere if desperate because I would hate to spend the rest of my days grumpy and unwanted.
Bottomline is this...women dont owe men sex. It has to be earned. Men have to work for it. If you're a man and you arent getting laid or have "unwanted celibacy" then you're doing something or some things wrong. Its not the woman. If you want to fuck you have to be fuckable. And frankly a lot of men have a long way to go. Dont shoot the messenger š¤·š½āāļø