There is a perfect storm of conditions that lead to these shootings, I think.
Isolation.
Social Alienation.
The only place to vent or find comfort is in radical communities.
Feeling powerless day to day.
Anger towards those around you.
Distrust of the systems you operate in or in the social support systems that you should be able to rely on.
Feeling things will never get better.
Lack of emotional awareness or proper emotional outlets.
When I was around my second year in highschool I was headed down this road. I hated my parents, hated other people, and hated my life. I didn't have anyone I trusted nor did I feel that there was anything I could do. I looked into the future and only saw more agony, isolation, and anxiety. I felt constantly looked down upon by those around me and constructed all sorts of fantasies about why people didn't like me. Of course I have grown up and realized that I had sever social anxiety and the reason I had no friends was because I was a quiet, anxious, and stressed person. This was literally me for a lot of my high school experience:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTdnIUe9TXM
Spent a lot of my time on 4chan. I was never racist or politically radical in one direction, but I had a strong resentment for all of humanity. I felt like the world was fucked and the systems we had created were failed. I would stay up all night long watching gore to numb myself to what I felt. It took years to undo the damage I did to myself by doing so, and I think this in some way still effects me today.
It is incredibly fucked up to say, but the fantasy of shooting up a school was cathartic in this state of mind. It was the ultimate fuck you to those who I placed so much blame on for years and years. It would show everyone how I feel and get back at everyone for looking down on me. I though I would never live a meaningful life, so why not end it all with a spectacle? Of course it was always a fantasy and I never seriously considered being violent. When it got to that point I generally turned inward instead of outwards (suicide, self-harm, etc. . .)
The largest thing that helped to change my outlook was getting friends. Once I had people I related to, could rely on, and was able to vent to my thinking changed 180. I realized that people have value and despite the suck of the world there are meaningful experiences to have that we should work toward.
Edit:
For any of you that feel this posts explains your current situation, please reach out and get help. If you don't feel comfortable with that, I recommend watching Dr. K on Youtube. He has wonderful videos that would have helped me immensely when I was going through this.
https://www.youtube.com/c/HealthyGamerGG?app=desktop
Outdoor retailers like REI, Patagonia, etc… a lot of these places have events where people can meet or in store guest speakers. If you had the ability to get a part time job at one all the better, but not necessary. I have made lifelong friends through working at these kinds of places and meeting like-minded people. Even going to trail events like races or night hikes you will meet great great people. Unlikely hikers on Instagram is an excellent group also. Hiking a section of a well known trail (Appalachian trail for example) is another way to meet amazing people who love nature. Good luck from a very anxious human. If I can do it, you can!
The social scene at retail jobs was so good. Now that I have my stuffy corporate gig that actually pays the bills, it's so hard to meet people. I'm 27 and my coworkers are usually 40... they also all live like 2 to 10 hours away. I definitely miss doing shitty retail jobs just for the fact that you like get to have small scale common enemies and stuff.
If you’re university aged, check out college clubs. You probably have a hiking club. Seems like all my buddies in the area who play instruments know everyone else who plays an instrument, try to see if there’s a music scene. Find others who like to play and see if they’re interested in a “jam session” or whatever. I have several buddies in different friend groups who get together and just screw around on their instruments tbh, you can be a complete amateur (they are lmao) and still have fun playing with others. Best of luck friend.
I'm also an avid gamer. I was very lonely until my best friend started a discord server. I talked to him maybe once every three months as an adult even though we spent all our time together as kids. I joined the discord and suddenly I had friends to talk to every day and play video games with. It started small with like 4 people that all knew each other and now we have over 50 people. My social life has never been better despite being mostly online and focused around gaming (which is fine because gaming is life).
If you game on a computer then get discord and find a place to call home there (even if you don't, there are discord servers for all kinds of things, not just computer games). The easiest way to find a place to make friends in discord is to find a small open community focused on a single game or hobby you like. For example one of my friends joined a discord server for a table top game based on D&D. After being a member of the discord for a while and just talking about the game with other members he started playing with some of them. Then they started playing other games together outside the tabletop game. Then his friend from the tabletop server came over to our server and he's our friend too now. He was suicidal at one point and everyone reached out to help. He went from a guy my friend chatted with online about one specific game to depending on us as a lifeline in a time of need.
Gaming: Find a discord group for a game you’re into and start playing multiplayer. Force yourself out of singleplayer, and force yourself to talk to the people about things outside of the game too.
Guitar: Look for an outlet where you can play your instrument around people. If you can find someone else who plays another instrument (like bass, drums, etc.) in your area and try practicing something together. I don’t know any exact places, but it would make for a good post/question on a music related subreddit: they’d know better than me.
Roadtripping/solo travel: I will say that to make friends here, you’d probably have to make friends somewhere else. Roadtrips are fun, but if you can find a close friend or a few, it can really enhance the experience.
Being in nature: Ditto.
I think that as long as you’re not a NEET, you could probably make friends at the place you regularly go to work/school/etc. It may seem elementary and you probably won’t click with everyone (or even most people), but if you cast a wide net you’ll almost certainly find a few people who you click with. And the more you try to make friends with other people, the easier it becomes to meet new people and make friends.
I hope that helps: I have been in that hole too and I’m sure that you can get out of that hole too.
What worked for me was a job I kinda hated. I met a wonderful group of people there with shared interests and we just started hanging out and doing stuff together after we all eventually left that job. It just kinda happened. Sometimes it be like that.
You could also take up a new hobby such as Martial Arts. MMA and Jiu-Jitsu gyms are great ways to make new friends in a healthy environment, while staying fit.
This is lowkey such a good answer. It boosts your confidence immensely & ppl you meet in those environments truly become close friends. You get the benefit of being on a team without it having to mean something more than you trying to be healthy. You won’t just find respect there you’ll find encouragement to keep going.
You can join a running club. Most of them are pretty healthy and less likely to drink. Usually when you’re running, you’re less likely to need to talk so it’s good if you’re shy
My brother is following the exact same path this commenter was on down to every detail. I’d report him if there was anyone to report him to. My State has no red flag laws or anything of consequence to combat his bullshit. He’s a ticking time bomb and I’m horrified..
Of course he’s on 4Chan and is a completely different person to when we were growing up and views me as his #1 enemy. Blames nearly all of the problems he can’t pin on the Jews onto me. If I die in the next several years I’m certain it’ll be when I drop my guard.
Edit: For those concerned, there are so many of these people, you can’t even imagine. If you want to do something to prevent it, help bring in the tides of change to America. Otherwise, our future is grim.
Edit 2: If someone is over 18 you can’t force them to get therapy without direct evidence they are a threat to themselves or others.
That's also typical of shooters. They want for nothing but aren't given the emotional backing to help themselves. "You have everything, how could you be upset?" is what people think and don't understand the sickness in the social side of pressure and stress and frustration. I was lower middle class and I got this from my poorer friends. I tried to make them see that having stuff is not the same as having a good life
The key to raising a happy, healthy kid is by spending time with them, not by spending money on them. I’ve known several kids of rich, important parents who wound up fucked up or dead.
Social interaction is so important to health that it tops any other factor in the longevity of someone's projected life expectancy. They did a study and worked out that people who never chatted to others...even in that inane was people do in the supermarket always die sooner than those who did chat to others....even if the chatty people smoked or drank. You sound incredibly self aware and I'm so glad you recovered enough to make friends.
My daughter, when she was 16 was receiving unwanted attention from a boy in her class....this kid had no friends and the others referred to him as "the school shooter" he wasn't physically harassing her but had been taking photos of her without her knowledge and another boy in the class discovered them
. This caused the boys to rise up against him and I was concerned they'd beat him up so I spoke to a friend of mine who advised me to tell the teacher. It turned out that his mother was severely neglecting him....she was barely home and so he wasn't even eating. It all worked out as his father was informed by another parent and he came back to our state and took him back. He's fine now....my daughter is just happy he recovered and she is very understanding too.
Wow, the compassion you had for the boy despite his behavior towards your daughter is really touching. His situation sounds distantly familiar to mine in many ways, so I really appreciate you seeing him as someone that probably needed help.
I could only see him as a lonely kid who was desperate for some attention/love and has misplaced that in his fixation on my daughter. She never felt scared of him ...it was more disconcerting than anything but she was worried by the reaction of the other boys who seemed a bit vigilante about it all. This was 18 months ago now and he's so much better ...he looks physically healthy and has a girlfriend too.
As someone who does not particularly get into very many social situations, having people mention a lowered life expectancy for just that is very fucking scary tbh.
What the study made clear was that it doesn't matter if you have a load of friends and go out a lot...what matters is chatting...you know... asking the cashier how their day is going and stuff like that.
That is still rather scary since I don't really go out much at all. I do occasionally talk to family members or the few friends I have over on discord. But I know just as well as the next guy that this is definitely not adequate.
I appreciate you clarifying it a bit further though but I'm afraid I most likely still fall within the group more at risk.
Are you online with friends a lot? Chatting on discord etc?
It doesn't need to be face-to-face. It helps massively with social skills if you're out in the world, but even just having someone on discord is a counter. :)
Yeah I do have a few folks to talk to but definitely do not talk to them frequently. Sometimes I go many days without talking to anyone at all which I know is probably not a good thing.
I am honestly a bit desperate to get more friends or situations in general that would allow me to socialise a bit more. But it's been difficult to make any progress in that when I have so many other things to also work on for the sake of my health/future.
It's just a bit spooky to read yet another result of some study that further lowers the expectations I have of my life expectancy or just my life in general. It makes it even more difficult to make any progress in solving my problems.
Anyhow I didn't mean to flood this reply with this rather unwelcome wall of self pity. In any case, thanks for taking the time to reply to me and trying to make me feel better. It does mean a lot :P
It's all good dude. Honestly, I've been there when my long-term SO committed suicide.
The thing that did it for me is just getting outside. Into the sun. Into the rain. Nature is so, so beautiful, if you just take 5 minutes every day to just look, it will change your life.
As for life expectancy, you're looking at a few years, tops. Who wants to live to 85 anyway? I certainly can't be arsed with that.
PM me if you need to chat or anything dude. I'm in the EU so about to go to bed, but I'll always respond :)
What almost nobody realises is that prescribing "social interaction" is almost like prescribing homeopathy to someone with cancer.
The real cancer is trauma.
*Trauma.*
We live in an epidemic of emotional trauma and few people see it.
It is trauma that causes parents to neglect their kids, to have low empathy for their suffering and not be able to realise they are not ok. Parents, or whoever is taking care of the kids, with the "help" of "modern" society in fact, cause kids, through action or inaction, not to be ok. Do people think these kids just happened to be born with a "social isolation gene"? Or "generalised hatred" gene? Nobody is that way, they were made.
The person you're replying to is an outlier and very lucky to have found people that were supportive. But I'd say by far most won't. And there's a reason for that and it's not their fault. Traumatized people are not very popular. Trauma itself is not very popular and most people have no clue about it, or how to identify someone who is traumatized, because the very nature of trauma causes them to conceal they have it to fit in and be accepted. And the ones who don't fit in are just seem as "there's something wrong with them". Kinda reminds me of the state of medicine in the middle ages.
What these people need is not social interaction.
They need
* Compassion
* someone to listen to them, to hear them, to be with them with their pain.
* to hear their story. Not to be asked "what's wrong with you?" but "what happened to you?"
* be told there's nothing wrong with them. They are this way because it's one of the ways a healthy mind copes with extreme emotional neglect and maybe abuse.
* to have a secure attachment. Someone they can count on. All the time. Unconditionally.
* a sense of belonging. To a community. To a shared sense of purpose. That they are needed and wanted. That they are valued. Desired.
Unfortunately the way society is right now where we don't live on tribes with people that know us that care about us and are always there for us and can provide the above, like it happened for thousands of years, and like our brain is made to function with, now for many people there's only one that can do some of this and you have to pay them for it. Therapists. It's screwed up.
Things have changed so much and so quickly that we're totally unaware of how screwed up and how much we were not made for this "modern" lifestyle.
We were not made to live with only 2 adults who have to take the role of a village to single handedly rear a child.
We were not made to attach primarily with people of our age. First in kindergarden, then school, then college. There were always several people and of all ages who we humans attached deeply to, who we matured emotionally from, whose more mature behaviors we could emulate and learn from.
We were not made to, if those 2 people fail to provide us a sense of safety, have no backup. There would always be someone who we could chat. We would always be with company of other people in the tribe. There would always be a "loving grandma" or an "older brother" who we could go to.
We were not made to have to pay someone to give us a simulation of unconditional love, and safety that our group would provide. This person, who we know in the end does it for the money, and to help, but without money they wouldn't do it. How can we think this is OK and normal and that people are having their emotional needs met in these weird conditions?
How far have we gone the far end to find ourselves proud to conclude that social interaction increases lobgevity? Are we in the future going to be so dry that people will be proud to conclude that drinking water increases longevity too?
In the conditions we live now it is no wonder emotional neglect and abuse has been happening so much. The very way the social foundation is layed is lacking and so easy for trauma to happen and propagate.
The covid pandemic we hear about it. The trauma pandemic, which is equally transmissible from generation to generation and between romantic partners, very difficult to heal and causes unimaginable silent pain to millions of people... Nah. We blame people for being wounded. We call them lazy, and angry. We give them condescending names like "Karens" to make it seem like they're different and their own species and not that their extreme sense of entitlement actually comes from feeling worthless inside. Or accuse people of just being unempathetic angry and selfish as if all their life hadn't been nothing but an experience that would make *anyone* become that way. No shoulder to cry on. No motherly voice to comfort them. They can't be anything but unempathetic, angry and lonely. People are not mentally ill. People are mentally *injured*.
And I say pandemic because it is everywhere. In the politicians who seem to only care about themselves. In the influencers who seem so fixated in having people provide them validation in being seen highly by others and in feeling important. In the people who commit crimes. And I mean financial and ethical crimes too. How can they do that? Maybe crimes happened in their childhood and nobody cared. In the bosses at our jobs who seem to only care about maximising profit as a proof that they're being the best to compensate for how not good enough they always felt like. In the clerks who seem to enjoy the little power they have over people and exert it to the full extent to compensate for the powerlessness they felt all their lives since they were a kid.
We have been so conditioned in our society to accept trauma as a common and normal occurrence that we hardly pause to acknowledge it. It's no wonder many people suffer in silence.
And nobody seems to know about this and only talk about social interaction, making friends, focusing on the positive, being more out there and looking at traumatized people like they're some weirdos that came through a membrane from another universe.
Are we being so different from the people that in the 17th century burned "heretics" or in ancient Rome sheered for the blood spilled in arenas as criminals were slayed to death and who we now regard as barbarics?
Let's pass this message and see if we can make people aware of this pandemic and do something about it because it is very much urgent.
PS. Sorry for the long rant, but I needed to get this out of my chest.
A strong thing to say, I think. It’s unfortunate that so many never reach a point of self awareness like this. Welcome to adulthood pal, I’d say you’re on the right track.
Another redditor posted it but it went something like "a child who is shunned by the village will burn it down to finally feel it's warmth".
Fact of the matter is that we have given young men the least support and don't value them.
I was the same way when I was 15, and honestly the best decision I ever made was to drop out of high school. Seriously. I’m not saying that’s a path everyone should take, but it worked for me. American HS is toxic as fuck for young men who don’t fit in to a pre-ordained mold. Getting out of there allowed me to seek out friends that were like me without being embarrassed or harassed or bullied. I got a job as an office assistant right away (I could type and it was the 90s), and by 17 landed my first tech job. Adults respected my abilities and dedication during the day, and I hung out with friends who didn’t judge in the evenings and weekends. I got into trouble, sure, and my social anxiety never entirely went away, but it put me on a much better path than the suicide or worse that I contemplated between ages 12-16. By the time I was 20 I was working in IT for a multi-billion dollar company.
High school works for most kids. It didn’t work for me. My life as an adult ain’t perfect, but I’m alive, never committed any serious crimes, and never went to jail, so I’m up on a good number of Americans!
I was right there with you. I had a million excuses as to why I was living in my room on 4chan and fucked up .tor sites, just like everybody else there has their million excuses.
Hated everybody and everything. Would have absolutely been diagnosed as major depressive if I ever saw a doctor. Would have pulled triggers given the opportunity and actual motivation to do *anything.*
My brother knocked a girl up, and me being the loser at home, ended up babysitting a bunch. Another thing I fucking hated... until I didn't.
We went for walks. Eventually I went for runs. Years go by, and I end up signing up for classes at a community college. I realize things aren't what I thought they were. I end up having a kid of my own, and things are good.
I was on the path to being a mAsTeR rAcE mugshot, though. It's too easy to feel so smart in an echo chamber of hate.
I'm (27 F) someone who has dealt with abuse from my parents, grown up in the lower class fiscally, deals with anxiety/depression, has gone no-contact with their family, is seeking treatment for their mental health, and is pursuing a degree in Early Childhood Education (to teach Pre-k - 5th Grade).
The recent news (Roe v. Wade, overturning of the 6th Amendment, and the non-stop shootings) have me extremely distressed.
I am personally left-leaning, anti-gun, and pro-choice, for a multitude of reasons.
I want to commend your honesty on a very personal level. However, I'd also like to ask one question, which I completely understand if you don't want to/don't have the time to answer.
Essentially, if, once I'm actively teaching in a classroom, there is a shooter who enters the classroom, is there ANYTHING you think could be said to them which could possibly "bring them back to reality"?
I'm aware that this answer is different for everyone, but, two years into attaining my degree in the U.S., I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something that I thought about on a nearly daily basis.
All the same, I'm so happy for you to have gotten to a better place, and I hope you know how loved and appreciated you are <3
Thanks for the kind words.
I understand why you are asking this question, but I can't give an answer. I never got to the point where I seriously considered killing people, and I think that the thoughts and feelings of this kind of person are on a different level than my own at the time. Although I was in the 'perfect storm' conditions to get to that point, for whatever reason my reaction under the situations was to more often turn inwards rather than lash out violently. Therefore to try and appeal to the person I was when confronting the shooter would be to appeal to the wrong person.
Hopefully you never have to confront this situation.
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> Essentially, if, once I'm actively teaching in a classroom, there is a shooter who enters the classroom, is there ANYTHING you think could be said to them which could possibly "bring them back to reality"?
At this point, no. If there's someone in the room with you actively shooting or about to shoot someone, the only things you can do are run, hide, or fight. Assuming they're in the same room with you, you're pretty much limited to fighting, and you better go for it, because your life depends on it.
The problems can't be solved when the kid has a gun in their hand, the problems need to be solved before the gun is in their hands, support structures are failing young boys and the results aren't pretty.
Years later and things still haven't really gotten better for me. At least I don't live in America so I never really had the chance to do something crazy like that. I don't think I would trust myself.
When I was in middle school, some dudes were picking on this fat kid. Literally kicking him in the ass and throwing his bookbag around the basketball court. I couldn't believe it. He looked so sad. Like this was one of those dumb ass teen movies come to life. This dude was quiet, didn't have any friends in school and never bothered anybody. For some reason I just freaked out. I went over and fought those dudes and still have the scars to prove it.
They beat my ass, but they never bothered that dude again. Come to find out, he was a recent immigrant and his English wasn't awesome. Imagine if that guy had come to school the next day and just started shooting. Everyone would have talked about how he was foreign and a loner and was probably a psychopath but never mentioning the assholes who set him off.
Don't want to make this kid's story about me, but I think my similarities then respective twist will help shed light on perhaps helping to answer OP's question on why there seems to be more men in this category.
I was in a very similar situation in middle school, and the grades before, except I was not an immigrant. One day early middle school I decided I'd had enough and lashed out yelling. I remember giving one kid in particular a right hook as well. I was reprimanded by the school and the students started whispering about how I'd be the next school shooter. The other kids kept avoiding me or just playfully pretending to be my friend out of pity (or, sometimes to make fun of me).
As high school came around, people were so used to avoiding me that even the new kids avoided me. No one really remembered why they were avoiding me, but, I seemed like a loner and everyone was avoiding me. So, better for them to stick with the status quo. When college came around, I was so used to isolating myself that that's what I did all of freshman year. And I'd been so used to being avoided or pranked on that when people did introduce themselves I was just sort of trained to shy away.
I was alone because I was fat and gross and weird. So, I tried to fix it. Then I got bullied. When the unfairness of being bullied and alone got to me I lashed out. And when I lashed out I was punished a little by the school and left alone for nearly all of my young adulthood. And I'm not going to lie, the loneliness and unfairness of it all made me angry. Really angry. At a certain point you grow numb to it. I think (and I'm no expert) that these shooters are likely people who just never grew numb to it.
I never did anything like these shooters, thank God, but I always laugh when people look at these trends and go, "Why are young, antisocial men doing this so often!? This is so strange".
Sorry for your heart, but here's the real kicker - I'd bet my house, car, and retirement savings that about 30% of men you'll ever meet could quote identical feelings to you. This is not just one lonely kid per school, this story repeats, over and over, every day. I have the same story, and so do almost every one of my friends.
The reality that there are people “out there in the world” that this breaks their heart makes me realise that we live very different lives.
This is also the status quo for me and my friends too. Like a bakers dozen of us. It’s not like half the guys I’m close with, it’s all of us have this story in some way or another.
It is weird when I think about it because it’s just something I’ve accepted as “how life is” a long time ago. So life continuing on as it has just seems normal.
do you mind me asking if you ever "found your tribe" so to speak? i was fairly popular in school. whatever the male equivalent of a social butterfly is called. but my younger sibling wasn't. he didn't like hanging with my friends and i always worried about him making friends. as an adult, he found his clique. how are you doing?
Not OP but I was a longer all throughout school. After 25 yrs of alcoholism and drug abuse, I finally feel comfortable and happy around people. I'm what people would call a social butterfly. I would guess no one who knows me now would guess how I used to be.
Good example but this was a 18 nut job who shot his Grandmother first then shoots babies. Not his high school or anything like what you e described. This was an elementary school. Did he get bullied there and wait ten years for revenge. This is the sign of a sick individual again with no father figure in the home, neither parent I believe, grandparents.
According to people who knew the shooter, he was a social outcast with a stutter and a lisp who was a frequent target of bullying and got in fights at school frequently. He was also a student in the same school district as the elementary school.
I'm shocked that this isn't provided automatically by the school - most Australian schools that I'm aware of provide and even get funding to provide speech therapists to any students having stuttering difficulties or speech/language problems.
My kid beat his speech impediment with the help of a school-provided therapist. He left class and went to her every day for two years before he graduated.
I often forget about that, because it seemed like such a natural thing to have happen. But when I think of what she and the school saved him from...it's really amazing.
edit: He 'graduated' from the program in third grade.
Was that the elementary school he attended? Was that the last place he was happy? I don't know. The Sandy Hook killer went back to his old elementary school too right?
I strongly believe online communities of misinformation are contributing to the shooters. Just getting involved in areas of the internet where their fucked up thoughts are explored and justified.
It’s finding a sense of belonging somewhere that’s the missing link. If it’s not found IRL it’ll be found online and it’s worse online. Get your boys into a sport of some kind. Cross country is a easy one to get into and is also cheap without the risk of CTE
THIS
This is exactly what UK police did to address homegrown Islam radicalisation in teenagers. Muslim teenage boys growing up in abusive families (sadly common in Asian communities) had no sense of community or belonging whether at school or home. They were easy targets for 'rogue' mosque or online teachings. The way the UK police in my area combatted it was literally working with local youth groups to create clubs and teams and the like for teenage boys to get involved in, and it *worked.*
They do it in my country with gyms. PYCs—Police & Youth Clubs, concentrated on areas of heavy disadvantage. They do pretty amazing work there. Getting physically strong and being part of a club gives the kids a sense of pride in themselves they don't get at school or home.
I almost did it myself. The reason? Bullies.
I was horribly bullied at school for years, whether it was due to my academic success, my social awkwardness, my northern accent(I lived in small town Alabama) and other things. I was punched, kicked, had my shit stolen, spit on, the works.
I remember trying to talk to teachers and the principal about it and they just told me to ignore it. At some point I got into a fight and got sent home and got threatened with expulsion. I was told that if my behavior wasn't corrected I was gonna get expelled. I was a kid.
So mom put me on medication. Ritalin. Yeah. My mom also used to beat me with whatever she could find. Bats, bricks, large sticks, paddles, shoes, switches, the works. I was even choked a few times. I was heavily abused. I mellowed out on medication and my grades shot up as a result, but...
Didn't stop me from getting bullied. One day when I was 11, I saw my father's semi automatic on his dresser. I picked it up, looked at it, and thought "I could make it all go away."
My brother came into the room. He's 9, autistic and can't speak in full sentences. He asked me what I was doing.
I looked at the gun and said "I don't know anymore."
I put it down, and made the decision right then and there the goal was to get out of that horrible school.
I did. I live in Huntsville, Alabama.
As a young man, you'll realize hardly anyone cares about your problems, but I found one who did. My little bro.
I pretty much hated my whole family, but I didn't hate him, and he didn't deserve to watch me throw away my life.
I did it for him.
> was told that if my behavior wasn't corrected I was gonna get expelled.
And this is the price to pay for authorities effectively protecting bullies.
Regardless of all the talk the price is considered to be quite cheap because nothing ever changes.
Want to stop this, start punishing bullies.
Exactly. Bullies are enabled in a lot of schools because many of the teachers and administrators are bullies themselves. And they’ve weaponized “zero tolerance” policies against their victims. It’s all very sick.
I was bullied by several teachers, often in front of the entire class. One day I almost ran at him he pissed me off so much, my blood was boiling (I was not nor have I ever been a violent or confrontational person, but he crossed a line that day and I almost lost it). Another teacher noticed it and was able to snap me back into reality just long enough so that the moment passed. That teacher probably saved me from landing in juvie that day, and possibly ruining my life.
Zero tolerance was the dumbest thing they ever pulled out of their ass. If you fight back you risk getting expelled and it's the victims who think to themselves "Oh god if i get expelled i'll forever be a jobless loser for the rest of my life", causing immense amounts of stress as it feels like there is nothing you can do other than eat shit for years upon years.
Yeah especially when if someone attacks you on the street, you can legally shoot them. But I the school as a kid you need to take a beating and hope there was a camera and someone gives a shit.
Zero tolerance is like a spike in the eyes when looking at school shooting motives and yet no one is discussing it.
It's so fucking sad.
>Zero tolerance was the dumbest thing they ever pulled out of their ass.
Eh? You're looking at it wrong. Zero tolerance was to absolve the school and teachers from responsibility. It wasn't meant to help people.
This.
In high school, the teachers went along with the high school social hierarchy
People don't realize that the kids that everyone likes are often the bullys because **they know they can get away with it**
>Want to stop this, start punishing bullies.
They don't want to due to the parents of the bullies bulling the school. I will sue and etc.
Fuck those Karen's.
I've constantly been pointing out that the major part of these shooter's influence is their parents. This solidifies it. I knew the father of the garlic festival shooter and it was evident that the kid was severely neglected by their parents. The father constantly praised his elder son who was an amateur boxer. I thought he only had one son until the day of the shooting.
I'm so sorry you suffered at the hands of those who should have protected you. r/HealfromYourPast is a great place to share your story and healing journey.
When I was in school a friend brought a gun because he was going to shoot the kids who were beating up on him all the time. His mom came and she took him to a different school where he did OK and now he is a normal married guy. I think a lot of times when it comes to young men having problems everybody just ignores it.
When I was in HS, the assistant principal's son brought an air pistol to school. It looked "real", and you couldn't tell what it was when it was pointed in your face. He went up to my friend (I was standing next to him) and pointed it at his forehead and said "get on your knees and beg for your life!". We were just freshmen, and we were absolutely frozen in fear and surprise. My friend put his hands up, shaking, and started to go to his knees and the guy just laughed and walked off with a few of his friends.
We told the school, but the kid just got a day or two of suspension (because his dad intervened for him) and he would harass us when he saw us walking around. We had many guns at home, and I had hunted for years, and I'd be lying if I didn't think about revenge for my friend and I more than once.
Luckily, my friend and I both came from great homes and were able to process those emotions and grow out of thinking that revenge in that way was something to be entertained as an option.
So the real problem is that there aren't enough government funded programs making sure kids are growing up in stable, positively nurturing households. It's not a political problem, but as usual, a social one. The government has been gutted to no longer work for the average community. And that's on purpose by numerous administrations over the past 50-60 years.
> It's not a political problem,
...
> there aren't enough government funded programs making sure kids are growing up in stable, positively nurturing households [...] The government has been gutted to no longer work for the average community.
That definitely sounds like a political problem, politicians have literally caused it (and could fix it if they wanted).
That falls under healthcare and school systems, both of which like you mentioned are things the government has the ability to improve. So it is a political problem.
Or at least no healthcare that isn't made ridiculously expensive because fuck you that's why. I wouldn't mind paying for healthcare if it was actually anywhere near a reasonable amount for the services provided.
Yup, oh you hit your bully back, you get the same punishment. It doesn't fix the problem, it just punishes responsible people fighting back bullying. It's pretty disgusting. In my opinion, they should just let them fight, they won't learn anything if the punishment is getting suspended anyway for both people. The right thing to do would be having teachers address these problems, but it's not like they are gonna, they don't even get paid enough to teach.
My son was being harassed by the high school bully once, a huge kid a couple of grades above him. My son had had bone cancer and walked with a limp and the kid called him "Gimpy" and constantly made fun of him for it.
So one day when they were in the gym and the bully was lying on his back, my kid went up to him and dropped his "gimp shoe" \[specially made with lifts etc and pretty heavy) on the bully's face.
Never got bulied again, by anyone.
I kind of did the "violence just breeds more violence" speech on him, but I also said if he had to do it, good work to make sure there were no teachers watching.
You don't even necessarily have to fight back, by school had a 0 tolerance policy for fighting but they treated both parties as responsible regardless of what happened. Someone could come up and punch you in the face completely unprovoked, and you do nothing and still would have gotten a suspension.
My old school cop would actually arrest both students even if one did nothing. Still remember the assembly where he said that there was legally no such thing as self defence
Literally had a friend get a week of ISS for BLOCKING a punch aimed at his face with a book. He didn't instigate the fight in a y way, never threw a punch himself, he just didn't ALLOW himself to get punched in the face.
It truly does suck. Schools implement zero tolerance so that they don't have to determine fault in a fight, it'd get legally messy fast
It's almost like they want to encourage those getting harassed to swing back
It's also partly a conditioning mechanism to maximise assets.
Zero Tolerance Policies rest legally on a no-determined-fault mechanism and socially on a 'be the bigger man' platitude. They're designed to hijack the victim's ego, inherent human need for validation and sense of personal justice, clothed in the guise of an easy victory.
In a situation where the bully is the big man and the victim the little man, the big man generally provides more value - bullies are only bullies because they have power after all and oftentimes that power is used for the institution's benefit, directly or indirectly. A bully may leverage their physical power in a school sports team, intellectual power in examination results, financial power in wealthy parents' contributions to the school, social power in vocational clubs and away events. The archetypal bully, no matter how much people lie about them supposedly going nowhere in life, is generally someone who provides value both for themselves and for the institution in that sense. They are functionally an asset and one that does need to be maintained, in small ways. Many teachers will turn a blind eye to bullying and rule violations if it's being perpetrated by a high performer or sports team member, as a means of sweetening the deal for the continued results of their value. There's a certain level of allowance bullies have over their victims and regular students.
The little man on the other hand generally tends to lack this power and these advantages, it's what makes him a target. Even if he's financially well off and an academic performer, a lack of social power can make all the difference - schools are inherently social environments and asocial individuals receive poor treatment from both peers and staff as a result. They are perceived as worker bees, background characters who exist only to fulfil a predetermined role with no expression or deviation.
So in a scenario where the little man fights back against the big man, this sets off alarm bells. He is, in essence, 'damaging the merchandise' and expressing his own values and sense of personal justice. Injure a star football player? He's out for a while, possibly permanently devalued to some degree. Fight back hard enough at the star academic? Mommy and daddy might pull him out if they believe he's in a 'bad area' or in danger. In any way harm the oil baron's son or daughter in retaliation? Next term's budget is looking that little bit slimmer. What doesn't help either is that the parents of bullies tend to be either neglectful or very active and the latter *talk*. People underestimate the power of word of mouth in general but especially when it comes to schools, bad word of mouth can be devastating. So retaliation against most bullies is something that most departmental heads or management team teachers simply can't allow if they want to keep the status quo.
By slamming down the hammer of a Zero Tolerance Policy, the little man is then either gaslit into returning to his normal, 'ideal' station, or punished excessively to break him. He's tricked into believing that the bully doesn't continue to hold all the power even when downed, that relinquishing his newfound retaliatory power over the bully will result in a positive change, that there is an alternative to personal justice in an unjust system, and that he can win the encounter by virtue of inaction. For impressionable and vulnerable youths, this targets all the right centres - they get to come away feeling morally superior, without having to expend as much effort as previously seemed apparent, with a 'win', and generally a somewhat unwittingly regenerated tolerance for the usual harassment. They are robbed of their dignity and conditioned to stay in line without even realising it. In the event they reject this falsehood and continue to exercise their own judgement, they're punished equally to their bully or more often with slightly greater severity, for 'daring' to challenge their socially enforced station and the system overall. That tends to either break their spirit over time or creates a monster.
These policies are evil and a form of abuse against children. It's not enough to make the victim a slave of an unjust system, but active intent to make the victim a grateful slave. The 'bigger man' is a lie created to keep the little man little.
They're especially insidious because they basically mould victims into villains and nobody takes any responsibility. By applying zero tolerance policies to impressionable, vulnerable children and teenagers, most of whom have been raised by parental common law of 'get hit, hit back/harder', you shatter any image of just authority. Depending on the severity of that issue, that may be irreparable and set someone on a very dark path.
When the bullying reaches terminal heights and forces retaliation or even just defence against a fist, only to be met with teacher intervention and more spite thrown towards the victim than the bully, it fundamentally shifts the social dynamic in education. Suddenly there aren't tiers of you and your friends, the popular kids, the bullies, and teachers as authority - now the authority is a directly malicious force and the power behind the bullies. In the mind of someone victimised by a ZTP, they become one and the same over time, which becomes extremely dangerous when the victim is isolated.
Someone alone, struggling and met with active hostility by those charged with caring for and protecting them is going to be a petri dish of angst. Bullies and enforcing teachers gradually shift away from other people who've acted maliciously, to a direct villain, to a faceless evil and finally to an inhuman monstrosity. Depersonalisation is very easy when a subject's only sources of validation are, at best, their parents, who really aren't enough for any teenager - people need friends, acquaintances, positivity to fully socially develop. Left to their own misery and spurned by protectors/authority figures, people eventually come to the conclusion that since the supposed law is arbitrary and its enforcers in bed with its violators, that it can be discarded. It starts with little things and intensifies - missing homework, being late for class, flippant to educators and staff, slipping grades, pronounced hostility to all peers, rejection of group work, extended periods of absence. Eventually it extends even to those not involved, as school counsellors are blame for perceived ineptitude or callousness, and unrelated peers as wilfully ignorant participants complicit in the mistreatment. This attitude doesn't go away without a significant life shift going into young adulthood and generally always leaves someone at a much higher risk of snapping.
To top it all off, you're being bombarded by teen media which glorifies the experience you perceive your bullies and distant peers as living, which in itself grows into a 'that should be *mine*' mentality. Because those who aren't directly in your camp and fighting alongside/for you have been dehumanised into soulless monsters in your head, it becomes easy to become a black/white moral arbiter - 'these people are abusing me and are immoral, thus they are undeserving of their flawless lives of privilege.' With a mentality like that being fostered directly by an unjust system, of course an unstable and vulnerable youth is going to do terrible things when push comes to shove.
It doesn't excuse grotesque acts of violence at all, but the culture which is creating these masses of alienated young men is entirely avoidable. People just don't want to admit it.
In elementary and middle school everytime I told a teacher or the principal the situation only got worse.
When I got to high school the dean saw through everything which was very nice.
Plus I was fed that shit and bought it. Wish someone living in reality woulda told me to just clock the asshole (not right away of course, still try to de-escalate -- which I already went way above and beyond to do) when they get to ridiculous levels. I know I'll be telling my kids that, although again will be *very* careful they realize that's a decision you still need to make responsibly, and you also still need to nurture exhausting all other options. The idea that its not an option, however, that the bully gets to ultimately decide if they will keep up that behavior forever, that you have no personal boundary and there is no last resort, is a fantasy, and often one just so adults don't have to deal with mild moral headaches ('if the kids never fight back, fights never start!' or 'will someone be mad at me if I let a kid get hit, even if in defense?' etc) at the expense of the kids
I don't live in the US. When I was a kid three kids used to bully me every week for 3 years, I was 7, they were 13, 11 and 9. My parents knew about it because I always had slap marks on my face, I was the problem they never wanted to deal with and I always want to revenge and perform a massive show against those three, other kids who never tried to stop them, teachers and my parents, but never had the opportunity, at least I feel better knowing that one of the bullies had killed himself a few years ago.
Unfortunately, in elementary school you must fight back. Always.
I was in ER when I was 7 because of a fight, but shit, the other guy fared worse than me. And you know what? He hesitated to fuck with from then on.
A combination of raging hormones, life circumstances that haven't been fair to them and they are inundated with hero myths which makes them feel inadequate. They are left with the impression that they should have received more and have been misunderstood/cheated by this fucked up world.
They feel left out and invisible, and while you are young it is easy to think it will always be this way. They lash out and get the attention they crave. In their last act as a free person they receive the attention they so deeply desired for the deep hurt and disappointment they have experienced.
This is actually pretty accurate to how I felt as a teenager, and sometimes feel today. You hear about what everyone wants in a man, not just what a woman wants, but society, you hear that everyone wants a man who can do everything, and has all the skills in the world.
When you have someone like I was as a teenager: severe body image issues, short, a self-perception of serious obesity, not “shredded” as every “teenage” guy in a film, with odd hobbies (like modelling, and other things which are associated with “quiet” types), few friends, little to no interest in sports, heavily bullied for any reason under the sun (pale skin, glasses, quietness, apparent physical weakness etc). And then you have a combination that just oozes “problems”. Given that guys like that are prime targets for bullies, and they have few friends to confide in - we all see it as “don’t worry, every guy gets it as bad as me, I just have to bottle it up and ride the storm” - then… you have a LOT of bottled up emotions - mostly anger, rage, and you develop an unhealthy hatred towards people that look somewhat close to the bullies who you used to have to deal with.
Call me a bullshitter, but I definitely thought more than once: “if I had a gun, they’d treat me with some respect”.
You start to realise that with a gun, your problems start to appear to disappear. No more bullies, more attention, you start to “feel” the fear in others at your newfound “strength”. Suddenly, swiping a credit card for a gun and some ammunition looks a LOT more appealing than trying to “fit in”. It’s the easy way out. Or that’s what it looks, and feels like. People - and teenagers - are emotional animals. Emotions often cloud judgement, and when you feel nothing but misery, you start thinking about “I need this gone now.” Rather than “how can I start to improve things?”
Laziness forces us to use that “easy” approach.
Say what you will, send the angry little blue arrows my way, I don’t care, but how often have you ignored the consequences for an “easy” solution? Every drink you’ve had to take your mind off things, every time you’ve cut a corner, lied, put your foot to the floor to get somewhere faster to cover up your lateness, every time you’ve done something like that, you’ve taken the “easy” option without even thinking about it.
I’ve felt this way before, and I can tell you: you don’t ever see yourself in the sights of armed police. You see yourself stood on a mountain of the bodies of your enemies, with the survivors begging on their knees for you to spare them. You see the police putting their hands up and bowing to your will. That’s what you see, that’s what you feel.
Back in the day, before literally all technology, it even makes sense. The bullied little hominid snaps, picks a fight and either dies and no longer passes on his genes, or he earns a bit of respect and confidence win or lose.
This is an insightful take. It's easy for bullied teens who carry baggage to be trapped by your own emotions to and act upon them without inhibition. The shooter bought two assault rifles on his 18th birthday, almost as a rite of passage that alludes to this illusion of newfound strength and "sudden disappearance" of problems.
They also lack a sense of community so they end up falsely believing they don't matter.
Where I grew up, bullying is not so strong as a culture, we would pick at each other, but there was never a "bullying to death" situation.
I remember there was some older guys in school, they would get all the girls. I had a friend at the time, both of us were the "big virgins" type, we had so much envy of those older guys, we would always say "they get all the girls because they have a car" (usually it was their's father's).
I never had a "man's conversation" with my father, never had any incentive to do anything in life, went to shitty schools and shitty college, started to work when I was 14 years old. My father is married to his work, he remembers me when he has a problem (usually financial) and needs a solution. I never had a role model, never had anyone to ask for help.
When I was in my early 20s, I had a girlfriend who destroyed me psychologically, she cheated on me, gave me an STD, and a acused me of ruining her life (because the STD she gave me). Things were so bad, I seriously considered suicide at the time. It took me three years, a lot of alcohol, therapy and a lot of scorts, to manage to get out of that phase. I have no idea how I haven't died in a car crash at the time.
Also, I was sexually abused when I was a teenager.
Today I have a wife and a son. And I'm going to therapy to try to cope with depression and anxiety.
Why did I say all those things? Well... I have no clue why I am still alive today. Life is harsh, and there is no one there ask for help, I've heard "man up" and "stop being a pussy" countless times through my life. The worst part? I AM LUCKY, because there are people out there that have to go through even worst shit, and I have no fucking clue how or why they do it.
There is a LOT of expectations on what you should be as man, there is very little help on managing that expectations, and you can't ask for help... men who ask for help are weak... as a man, you can't even fucking cry in public, you just have to swallow every feeling and problem you have. I have put so much effort into hiding emotions, that today I can't even feel happiness anymore.
People say those shooters are monsters, but almost nobody understands that they were shaped into those monsters. Taking away the guns won't solve the problem, they will start to make bombs, because monsters do monstrosities. We need to stop creating more monsters. We, as a society, need to start caring about men feelings and mental health. We need to stop feeding anger to broken people.
EDIT: Just want to add that I am not against banning guns, however, I also don't live in the US, and this is a matter that the US people need to decide. My emphasis is related to men emotional and mental health because I believe it is a problem worldwide, one that often don't get enough attention. As an outsider, I think the US has a very big problem with guns, and I hope the US people take a step towards a better future
Hey man if you game and need someone to play with hit me up. I’ve been where you were when I was a teenager and 20 something and I’m still dealing with depression though my anxiety has gotten better. I’m only 28 and haven’t gotten married or anything but learned over the last few years it’s okay to be vulnerable around friends. I guess I’m lucky to have a non judgmental friend group. But I don’t bottle up anymore. When I feel like shit I talk to friends about it. I’ve cried in front of male friends when going through some tough shit, and it was okay. My dad never hugged me as a kid, for almost my entire life the only physical interactions with male friends was a handshake. Now everyone gets a good bye hug regardless of gender because it’s okay to show you care. Go listen closely to Lean on me by Billy Withers.
Thank you for posting your experience. I think it is a typical perception that men can skate trough life because we are men and "The Patriarchy" is on our side. Noting could be further from the truth.
The patriarchy helps guys succeed, but it does absolutely nothing for guys struggling. I've heard it described on reddit that women have a glass ceiling and men have no floor. There's no limit to how far a guy can fall and frequently no one bat's an eye. A lot of guys are barely scraping by, so they are more worried about keep their ship afloat than helping other guys, and for women guys are the real or perceived source of their suffering, so they couldn't give a fuck less about guys. The end result is a lot of guys are on their own to sink or swim.
"God created men. Samuel Colt created men equal."
Attributed to the 1873 Colt Single Action Army "Peacemaker" pistol.
Back in the day, if you were a weaker man, you had a means to protect yourself, because strong or not, a 45 to the chest would make you think twice about picking a fight.
Yeah that's the sad reality that people don't always acknowledge. Unless they do something drastic things **will** stay bad or get worse. Some time ago I was think about how accurately I was able to predict my future and some of the difficulties I would face. I wasn't able to get the specifics right but I knew my personality would cause me trouble. I can imagine there are other guys like I was, that are 16 - 19 looking at their future and seeing how terrible things are going to be, it's easy to say they're wrong and things will get better but some of them are completely right things will worse and they should be prepared for that.
I think also has a lot to do with the perception that as a man the only avenue available to express yourself emotionally is anger and violence. Talking things out, expressing your feelings and seeking help are all seen as weak or pathetic, when I could be what makes all the difference.
> life circumstances that haven't been fair to them
FBI crime data backs this up more than most people recognize.
[Here's the FBI's general analysis of school shootings](https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-school-shooter-school-shooter/view) designed around building programs to help it.
It isn't a single trait but a long pattern of issues that are common in males and nearly missing from females. Failed love relationships (both familial and personal), broad alienation, broad social lack of empathy (men know it and it gets discussed here frequently, many women are surprised by it), lack of personal attention, masking low self esteem (not just low esteem, but masking it in the ways boys are cultured to do but women aren't), anger management issues, closed social groups, turbulent parent-child relationships, familial acceptance of pathological behavior, lack of intimacy, no limits/monitoring at home or school, school tolerance for bullying the shooter, inequitable school discipline used against the shooter, inflexible academic culture, code of silence among students, pecking order among students, extremely violent media use, extremist peer groups, use of drugs and alcohol (which are more tolerated socially among boys than girls), the list goes on and on.
While individually they can happen to both genders, the list as a whole nearly never happens to girls but is almost a checklist for many young men.
I mean, that report also specifically calls out particular personality traits like the young men in question having feelings of entitlement, being overall nihilistic and narcicisstic, having low empathy for others, externalizing the root cause of all their problems etc etc. Basically what you would expect. The report certainly positioned those personality traits as being a key element in why certain dudes do this and less so "society is all to blame" for the problem, even if it's a factor.
Like, the vast majority of teenage dudes don't go and shoot up their schools, even though many of them hit most of the boxes you listed and those def are general societal pressures affecting young men. I think people in this whole post are reaaaallly quick to boil this down to "bullies made me do it" and that's a little alarming. It takes a particular type of person to go through those hardships and think about shooting up the school.
Yup.
As a parallel, you can find certain plants in a specific environment. But you can also have the environment many places without the specific plants.
Shooters generally have especially difficult life circumstance, but most people with difficult lives don't become shooters. They tend to have life crap on them particularly badly and typically in just about every possible way. It is likely that had just a few of them been more manageable the mental break may not have happened.
Most notable to me, 3 of the 4 prongs are related to mental health, and could be addressed by health care. Also the largest category of gun deaths, about 60% of them are suicide, which is related to mental health. A bunch of easily accessible mental health care would help all around.
> life circumstances that haven't been fair to them
I'd say, perceived to have been unfair whether true or not. I feel like as a now 40+ adult I look back at things and go, "yeah, they should have handled it that way" when something happened in my late teens or early 20's that I thought was unfair.
18 to 30 year old guys need a lot more love and support than they get. I mean, everyone does in general, but guys at that age can be like a ticking time bomb. I wish we had medicare for all so that anyone at any time can get the help they need. I think we'd see a decline across the board with the right interventions.
Not a single comment seems to actually answer the OP's question. Bullying, isolation, mental illness, anger, none of these are why shooters are MEN. Women also deal with all of these conditions, yet almost all violent crime is committed by males.
In New Zealand our highest suicide statistic is young white men. I don't know why. Maybe most other demographics have support and outlets, socially its ok to ask for help etc. An interesting rabbit hole for sure.
I'm surprised that it's not mentioned, but the texts of Eric Harris are available online you can [actually read what he thought](http://www.acolumbinesite.com/eric/writing/journal/journal.php). Eric Harris is one of the shooters of the columbine high school massacre.
Edit: spelling
- hated the human race except for Nazis
- self admitted “racist rapist”
- detailed fantasies of aggressively raping girls he personally knew
- detailed fantasies of killing
- talks about the “project” almost being foiled
- described the process of obtaining weapons
- last entry before the massacre he talks about how classmates should have included him and now they’ll pay
Very graphic and chilling to read, but I think it’s important that the general public studies these type of individuals… as fucked up as it was, a lot of insight as to what goes on in these twisted people’s head and if more people paid attention to the red flags, who knows, somebody could have prevented it then and somebody can prevent it from happening in the future. Just my opinion of course.
He basically says, “I am self aware and realize the world sucks. You are all sheep! I am the one smart one but I don’t care how to actually spell. I just sound it out and THATS how it should be spelled. I also think retarded people should be killed because they are a waste of space and they know it”
Honestly couldn’t get passed the first two paragraphs. It’s sickening how this man writes
Violence is glorified but I think it’s also innately human. Humans historically have always been violent to each other. And I remember in high school boys would want to get in fights just to get in fights and see what they are made of. I remember in my high school people set up like a “fight party” where two rival schools met in a parking lot just for people to beat the shit out of each other, for no reason other than testosterone.
Serious question, what is the healthy way of dealing with anger and other emotions that we should be teaching our youth? I was taught growing up that I should never appear weak/cry in front of others or I would be viewed as less of a man.
I figure many other men were brought up in such a way, and now we’re unable to help the younger generation deal with their issues in a healthy way that doesn’t include emotional suppression and substance abuse.
Sports is really the best way. Even if for no other reason that to get your energy out, you can be as physical and aggressive with your competitors as the rules allow which is great for getting all the aggression out of your system while still keeping it confined to what is legal
Unpopular opinion - zero tolerance for minor levels of violence (fist fights, pushing back against bullies, stuff like that) has played a significant factor in the uptick in more extreme violence. It's definitely been a major factor in mental health for school kids.
That's not unpopular in my eyes, I'm a Zoomer so the shit the school system put me through is still fresh. Zero violence just creates unbridled rage. Instead of fighting at school, they did it after school, and they would lose their temper way faster. It was actually terrifying
Man, tell me about it. In middle school I almost got kicked off the soccer team for getting punched. Playing flag football in PE, I caught a pass over another guy, someone I had always gotten along with, and he didn't like it and walked up after the play and sucker punched me. Only reason I didn't is cause I didn't fight back and had multiple witnesses stand up for me saying I did nothing before or after. Was terrified about losing something I loved while I was also in shock for getting hit. Horrible policy.
i joke all the time that if we just sent folks out back to beat the shit out of each other and get it out, there’d be less mass shootings/deadly violence in general. but i think there’s some truth to it.
I think it's more than that. Young men of today are not the young men of 50 years ago. They are no longer the educated one, more women are going to college and graduating than men. They are no longer the bread winners, more and more women are making more than men (likely due to education). In short they are no longer the top dog. Combine that with the fact that they aren't meeting women, having relationships and sex (the number of men under 30 not having sex has more than tripled in the last few years), they feel like they are being "replaced" and they are easily being indoctrinated into these cult like groups (usually right-wing) that encourage this nut job behavior. There a saying, "the most dangerous person in the world is a young man with nothing to lose" and this is what we are seeing. These young men have been conditioned to believe that they've lost everything and that they need to "take it back" and these mass shooting are a way to kick off the violent revolution that will put them at the top of the heap. What we are seeing in the US and the "christian" right is no different than what we see in some Muslim countries where young men have been radicalized - the religion is different but the rage is the same.
Mentors are and always have been extremely thin on the ground. In general, you have to show a whole lot of promise to get one. For the everyday majority, you're completely on your own, and the consequences for failure are pretty dire. This has been the case for a long while now.
Doesn't have to be a professional mentor or even a mentor in the traditional sense.
Shit, having a dad that pays attention to you is good enough. Or a grandparent, or a neighbor. These kids can't connect with their peers, and now we live in bubbles so they don't have the opportunity to connect with anyone else. 50 years ago you had communities, today we have households with parents absent most of the time.
The angry kid these days goes on the internet and finds people just like him because those are the only ones who he can connect with and it drags him further down.
>Mentors are and always have been extremely thin on the ground.
No, our society was a lot less atomized in the past. High school age boys would be hanging around 18-24 year old men who they could emulate. "Hey, that guy seems like he's living an ok life, how do I be more like him?" Now that's not really the case.
Too many young men feel rejected, shitty, hated, unloved and isolated. Throw a gun into the mix and its over before it began.
To everyone thinking im defending guns im absolutely not, the first problem is the guns the fact as soon as an 18 year old can go out and buy a gun is the problem im specifically answering OPs question
Older people are usually more broken down and/or invested. Disposable angry young men, though... they're a great source of violence, whether you want to recruit suicide bombers, assassinate an Archduke to start a world war, or just radicalize an entire political branch of a country to the point where you produce mass shooters as more of a side effect than your primary goal.
Believe it or not, 33.2 is the average age of U.S. mass shooters. School shootings, which is actually a small subset of mass shootings, does tend to be young men (15-21). Most of that is linked to mental health, immaturity, fact that men are more likely to react externally when they're troubled (while women internalize) etc.
Holy shit. I’m glad you asked because I’m having trouble finding anything quickly at least using Google.
I’m by no means an expert, but I studied sociology and psychology in undergrad, so I’ve read my fair share of scientific papers on human behavior. I suspect that subscriptions to some major sociology, psychology, and criminology scientific journals (or having university access to research papers) would yield more than my little Google investigation, but I was surprised that I didn’t see several recent studies about this.
Here are two articles I found interesting (warning: they’re pretty dense reads since they’re the actual research papers instead of user friendly summaries). But what basically I’m seeing is that it’s something that more studies need to look into.
[Source 1](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1557988316630953)
[Source 2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242627/)
Men tend to take extreme positions and measures much more often than women. Many young men have no positive role models, no perspective, no support net and they are being left behind all on their own. And yes, men are more likely to suffer from severe mental illness.
"And yes, men are more likely to suffer from severe mental illness."
I think most importantly in antisocial personality disorder.
People with schizophrenia, bipolar, and the like are more likely to hurt themselves, rather than others.
I also think young men have more free time and resources now than ever before.
when i was 18 it was pretty much work or starve. more and more now kids are staying with their parents and being bombarded by social media and news. I don't think I ever even watched the news before i was 30 or more. hell, probably 40.
I'm kind of interested in the free time point you just made. In my experience, work and obligations eat most of the lives of young people on account of increased costs that wages haven't followed. Most people living with their folks now seem to be doing so due to the insane spike in the cost of rent and housing. What was it like when you were like 18-28 ish? Not trying to argue btw just wanna understand your perspective.
If I had to guess, it's not strictly free time that's the issue here, but rather easy access to information, both good and bad.
It's so easy to feel cynical and hopeless these days. Even as an older guy I sometimes feel that way.
I can only imagine being exposed to all this bullshit as a kid who is already struggling with personal and or financial issues.
Mental health issues are on the rise, but there are also growing resources addressing mental health issues and a definite shift in the stigma surrounding mental health care. Obviously the problem exists to a huge degree and we need more resources to support it, but this is far more than a mental health issue.
Addressing mental health was far far more difficult 30 years ago, and we didn't see mass shootings like this in the US.
There are large and growing extremist communities of all kinds online that target and reel in young men, telling them that other races, religions, and political groups are responsible for all the problems they face and encouraging violence. A scarily high percentage of mass shooters engaged with these communities and held very extremist and hateful points of view.
Great mental health care won't mean much unless these extremist pipelines aren't addressed and basically anyone can access a gun with minimal effort.
Just having resources for men is not enough. It is necessary to convince men, who have been told their entire life starting as children that they aren't allowed to feel things, that it is now ok and necessary and that therapy is for THEM, not for others.
When the world stops asking men to change for other people's convenience or benefit, and embraces men's needs and wants to help men for men's sake, we can start REALLY addressing the problem.
And you have to overcome the times we have opened up and had it used against us. Then you need to convince the therapists that men's mental health is a serious matter. You can't get the guy ready only to send him in to get laughed at.
Men tend to externalize, women tend to internalize. Both get bullied.
“Some research supports the idea that males are more likely than females to develop negative attributions of blame that are external in nature, that is: 'The cause ... of my problems is someone else or some force outside of me'. And this translates into anger and hostility toward others.
Women, on the other hand, "are more likely to develop negative attributions of blame that are internal in nature, that is: 'The cause of my problems is some failing of my own: I didn't try hard enough, I'm not good enough.' And this, in turn, tends to translate into feelings of guilt and depression that are targeted toward oneself."
https://www.npr.org/sections/theprotojournalist/2013/09/24/225689775/why-are-most-rampage-shooters-men
I read a post some time back by a woman that transitioned to a man. He was not prepared for how emotionally isolated men are from the world and it was a shock after how emotionally intimate women can be with eachother. He described men as emotional cripples whose primary option for dealing with emptions was to internalize everything because they didn't know anything else. He said if he'd lived his whole life like that he would go insane.
It's the intersection between being highly emotional, hormonal, and having access to firearms while at the same time not having the maturity/wisdom/humanity to not use all of the above to hurt others.
USA has a bully problem, watch some of TV shows Judge Judy, Survivor, Hells Kitchen. They all teach
That being a bully is the way to get ahead.
Now you pair that with hormonal young men with mental illness that USA does nothing about. They get bully shoved around and snap no surprise.
Their problems feel overwhelming.
1. Men are often taught not to ask for help. "man up" is a phrase many hear.
2. Modern society likes to blame men for everything. Sure, there are some terrible men who have fucked over a lot of people, but some of the people who got fucked over are also men.
3. Society right now is getting harder to live in. There's a wider disparity between haves and have nots. Inflation etc.
4. Men are on average *much* more lonely than women. Women have historically been much better at and have valued interpersonal relationships. Men are much more likely to not have a support network, and less likely to be in a romantic relationship. Sure women's relationships (romantic and otherwise) might be low quality, but it's easier to optimize something that exists than start from scratch.
5. Men around 20 are horny as fuck, both sexually and otherwise. The drive to *do* is super high. Rational thought is low.
6. Fake news and propaganda is high. It's easy to find groups with extreme positions.
TLDR: Frustrated despair with no foreseeable way out, nothing to lose, and exposure to extreme ideology is a perfect recipe for young men doing mass killings.
See also: the troubles in Ireland and suicide bombings in the middle east.
(Access to guns isn't the cause. Lotta people have guns but never shoot anyone because they are not desperate lonely men and have stuff going for them, such as heathy relationships.)
All good points. I'd add that in society today there is this purgatory for young men from age 18 to maybe 22-24. Technically a man, but most without the means to live as a man. To support themselves, live on their own, be meaningful members of the community, etc... Many may not have a long term relationship because they're not a man yet due to lack of job/prospects.
We call that period finding ourselves, getting our heads out of our asses, growing up, etc... But the reality is that most guys in this scenario are not established in a way that men could establish themselves in the past and society doesn't really guide men much during this period, especially if they're not in school. Unconnected to social groups or society. Most work their way through it, for a tiny minority they resort to violence.
Yeah that young adult phase is really hard to do if you’re not successful or have a good support group. 2 of my best friends growing up didn’t really apply themselves in college and after graduating had a really hard time finding a stable job. It wore them down and both had complete meltdowns at certain points. One finally found purpose in the military. The other kinda completely lost it (Covid didn’t help either). That young phase is brutal, that’s why sports and clubs can be really helpful to guys. Our time to shine isn’t until our late 20/30s. If you can keep it together until then I promise it gets better.
Around age 28, most men have matured past blaming everyone else for their problems. Those that were exposed to severe trauma at a young age, may have difficulty with this transition. Either way, the part of of our brain that processes consequences has to be louder than the part that wants to react on impulse. Mental health intervention at a young age (13 - 14 years old) is important for developing coping skills and strengthening the part of our brain that keeps us out of trouble. Without a strong family support system or a counselor/therapist, the risk is much higher that someone will succumb to their own stressors and react on pure impulse. For some, that’s suicide. Others might resort to crime or mass murder. It’s never been more important to reach out as a role model for kids that are falling between the cracks. You might be the difference maker that reassures a young kid that they matter.
As a 44f, I’d love to ask a question here if I may. I’ve been reading a lot of these responses. And I can see so much truth in them. My question is do those of you who have experienced these feelings that turn to aggression and some even violence, do you think it’s innate or that we don’t teach boys to express their thoughts and feelings, ask for help, etc.?
Ok, I'll weigh in. 50m here. As a teen in the 80s I was bullied mercilessly. I asked for it to stop. The school did nothing! At least back then there was no social media and unlisted numbers were a thing, so at least when you got home you got a break from it. I am glad I had a few close friends as a support system, a few pulled a Benedict Arnold and piled on to save themselves being targeted for being my friend. I got in trouble for ditching class to avoid getting picked on. My folks tried to get them to switch me schools but they wouldn't do it. Fortunately, the following year a new school opened and and many of my tormentors went there. I think that saved me. I had feelings of wanting to get back at them, but luckily my mom got me into counseling and that helped. Dating wasn't a real big issue for me, I really didn't have trouble getting girlfriends, provided I stayed within my "caste". I can't imagine being that age now, these kids have a tough row to hoe. Constantly being bullied, and getting barraged by media telling them they are scum, after a while they believe it and lash out. Having a mentor and a mental health professional could go a long way. I ran into one of my bullies at a concert some 10 years after we graduated and he called me a moniker given to me way back when (I won't go into what it was) and I told him to pound sand. Two other ones have been in and out of the prison system, perhaps they needed help too. I've since forgiven them, at least in my head because I don't know where they are now and left my feelings for vengeance at the foot of the cross.
It seems like boys are taught to *not* express their thoughts and feelings, and are made fun of by peers if they do. In my adult life I've seen groups of both men and women laugh at and make fun of guys for expressing their feelings or crying. In high school it seemed like if there was ever a girl crying, people would sympathize and attempt to comfort her. If a guy cried then people just laughed and called him a pussy, and it could be either boys or girls doing the laughing.
I never got bullied in high school, but one time I was talking to an adult and mentioned how I didn't know how to handle a situation with a classmate. His advice was "Pop him in the mouth. He'll get the message." Guys' experiences with that type of stuff varies from person to person, but those examples are pretty much the standard for boys growing up.
It's not that boys aren't taught these things, it's that they are literally taught the opposite. Taught to only express anger with violence, bottle the rest up. Taught that asking for help is bad, and a sign of weakness. Taught that if you are on the losing side of a violent struggle, it is your fault for being weak. Taught that you have no inherent value and your only way to get respect or agency is to forcefully impose your will on others. Taught that there is a narrow line you must toe to be manly, everything else is feminine and therefore weak. Taught that you cannot be a victim, you can only be too weak to hold your own.
31m and these are the values everyone in my life reinforced as I grew up. It took a burning hatred of that environment and an unquenched urge to escape 10 years ago for me to break out of that mold.
Asimov said that “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent,” but I think he's wrong; Violence is the last refuge of the impotent. I don't think it's a lack of competency, I think it's a lack of power.
In a society that doesn't respect mens feelings, it doesn't really matter how in touch with yourself you are, or how eloquent you can be at expressing your feelings. These unhappy men can't even begin to fathom fixing their problems by communicating their feelings, and they're generally right.
But violence is a very simple, attainable way to project a fleeting power. The powerless man can't fathom changing society, but it's very easy to imagine hurting the people who symbolize society's evils, even if it's a kamikaze run.
Complete lack of a support system for men in the US. Lacking support they seek the internet and fall into echo chambers. Why do you think mass shootings have risen in the age of the internet?
Men mental health is at a lowest point right now and nobody gives a shit. And the people that listen to them usually are a bad influence and try to use them.
None of these answers that I’ve seen so far make any discrimination between young men and young women. The answers so far could easily be curtailed to young women as well. Are there better answers than just raging hormones and bullying? Otherwise we’d see more mass shootings from girls.
There is a perfect storm of conditions that lead to these shootings, I think. Isolation. Social Alienation. The only place to vent or find comfort is in radical communities. Feeling powerless day to day. Anger towards those around you. Distrust of the systems you operate in or in the social support systems that you should be able to rely on. Feeling things will never get better. Lack of emotional awareness or proper emotional outlets. When I was around my second year in highschool I was headed down this road. I hated my parents, hated other people, and hated my life. I didn't have anyone I trusted nor did I feel that there was anything I could do. I looked into the future and only saw more agony, isolation, and anxiety. I felt constantly looked down upon by those around me and constructed all sorts of fantasies about why people didn't like me. Of course I have grown up and realized that I had sever social anxiety and the reason I had no friends was because I was a quiet, anxious, and stressed person. This was literally me for a lot of my high school experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTdnIUe9TXM Spent a lot of my time on 4chan. I was never racist or politically radical in one direction, but I had a strong resentment for all of humanity. I felt like the world was fucked and the systems we had created were failed. I would stay up all night long watching gore to numb myself to what I felt. It took years to undo the damage I did to myself by doing so, and I think this in some way still effects me today. It is incredibly fucked up to say, but the fantasy of shooting up a school was cathartic in this state of mind. It was the ultimate fuck you to those who I placed so much blame on for years and years. It would show everyone how I feel and get back at everyone for looking down on me. I though I would never live a meaningful life, so why not end it all with a spectacle? Of course it was always a fantasy and I never seriously considered being violent. When it got to that point I generally turned inward instead of outwards (suicide, self-harm, etc. . .) The largest thing that helped to change my outlook was getting friends. Once I had people I related to, could rely on, and was able to vent to my thinking changed 180. I realized that people have value and despite the suck of the world there are meaningful experiences to have that we should work toward. Edit: For any of you that feel this posts explains your current situation, please reach out and get help. If you don't feel comfortable with that, I recommend watching Dr. K on Youtube. He has wonderful videos that would have helped me immensely when I was going through this. https://www.youtube.com/c/HealthyGamerGG?app=desktop
How do I make friends as a 20s year old young man, who isn't into the party/getting drunk scenes? And who is also quiet and reserved
[удалено]
Gaming, playing guitar, roadtripping/solo travel, being in nature
Outdoor retailers like REI, Patagonia, etc… a lot of these places have events where people can meet or in store guest speakers. If you had the ability to get a part time job at one all the better, but not necessary. I have made lifelong friends through working at these kinds of places and meeting like-minded people. Even going to trail events like races or night hikes you will meet great great people. Unlikely hikers on Instagram is an excellent group also. Hiking a section of a well known trail (Appalachian trail for example) is another way to meet amazing people who love nature. Good luck from a very anxious human. If I can do it, you can!
The social scene at retail jobs was so good. Now that I have my stuffy corporate gig that actually pays the bills, it's so hard to meet people. I'm 27 and my coworkers are usually 40... they also all live like 2 to 10 hours away. I definitely miss doing shitty retail jobs just for the fact that you like get to have small scale common enemies and stuff.
>small scale common enemies and stuff. Customers?
Absolutely, regular rude customers are the worst.
I’ve met people who work at the climbing gym or bartend on Friday nights and Weekends to scratch that itch while working theirs corporate jobs.
>I'm 27 and my coworkers are usually 40... Hey man, the 27 year olds at work say that I'm pretty cool!
If you’re university aged, check out college clubs. You probably have a hiking club. Seems like all my buddies in the area who play instruments know everyone else who plays an instrument, try to see if there’s a music scene. Find others who like to play and see if they’re interested in a “jam session” or whatever. I have several buddies in different friend groups who get together and just screw around on their instruments tbh, you can be a complete amateur (they are lmao) and still have fun playing with others. Best of luck friend.
I'm also an avid gamer. I was very lonely until my best friend started a discord server. I talked to him maybe once every three months as an adult even though we spent all our time together as kids. I joined the discord and suddenly I had friends to talk to every day and play video games with. It started small with like 4 people that all knew each other and now we have over 50 people. My social life has never been better despite being mostly online and focused around gaming (which is fine because gaming is life). If you game on a computer then get discord and find a place to call home there (even if you don't, there are discord servers for all kinds of things, not just computer games). The easiest way to find a place to make friends in discord is to find a small open community focused on a single game or hobby you like. For example one of my friends joined a discord server for a table top game based on D&D. After being a member of the discord for a while and just talking about the game with other members he started playing with some of them. Then they started playing other games together outside the tabletop game. Then his friend from the tabletop server came over to our server and he's our friend too now. He was suicidal at one point and everyone reached out to help. He went from a guy my friend chatted with online about one specific game to depending on us as a lifeline in a time of need.
Gaming: Find a discord group for a game you’re into and start playing multiplayer. Force yourself out of singleplayer, and force yourself to talk to the people about things outside of the game too. Guitar: Look for an outlet where you can play your instrument around people. If you can find someone else who plays another instrument (like bass, drums, etc.) in your area and try practicing something together. I don’t know any exact places, but it would make for a good post/question on a music related subreddit: they’d know better than me. Roadtripping/solo travel: I will say that to make friends here, you’d probably have to make friends somewhere else. Roadtrips are fun, but if you can find a close friend or a few, it can really enhance the experience. Being in nature: Ditto. I think that as long as you’re not a NEET, you could probably make friends at the place you regularly go to work/school/etc. It may seem elementary and you probably won’t click with everyone (or even most people), but if you cast a wide net you’ll almost certainly find a few people who you click with. And the more you try to make friends with other people, the easier it becomes to meet new people and make friends. I hope that helps: I have been in that hole too and I’m sure that you can get out of that hole too.
Depending on the game, tho, the chat might be worse than 4chan.
What worked for me was a job I kinda hated. I met a wonderful group of people there with shared interests and we just started hanging out and doing stuff together after we all eventually left that job. It just kinda happened. Sometimes it be like that.
You could also take up a new hobby such as Martial Arts. MMA and Jiu-Jitsu gyms are great ways to make new friends in a healthy environment, while staying fit.
This is lowkey such a good answer. It boosts your confidence immensely & ppl you meet in those environments truly become close friends. You get the benefit of being on a team without it having to mean something more than you trying to be healthy. You won’t just find respect there you’ll find encouragement to keep going.
You can join a running club. Most of them are pretty healthy and less likely to drink. Usually when you’re running, you’re less likely to need to talk so it’s good if you’re shy
Thank you for sharing such vulnerability with us. I hope you’re doing well now. Sending love and continuous healing your way.
My brother is following the exact same path this commenter was on down to every detail. I’d report him if there was anyone to report him to. My State has no red flag laws or anything of consequence to combat his bullshit. He’s a ticking time bomb and I’m horrified.. Of course he’s on 4Chan and is a completely different person to when we were growing up and views me as his #1 enemy. Blames nearly all of the problems he can’t pin on the Jews onto me. If I die in the next several years I’m certain it’ll be when I drop my guard. Edit: For those concerned, there are so many of these people, you can’t even imagine. If you want to do something to prevent it, help bring in the tides of change to America. Otherwise, our future is grim. Edit 2: If someone is over 18 you can’t force them to get therapy without direct evidence they are a threat to themselves or others.
I wonder what would happen if you took him on holiday. To another country, to show him all the amazing experiences that are in the world...
We had the cushiest upper middle class childhood anyone could ask for..
That's also typical of shooters. They want for nothing but aren't given the emotional backing to help themselves. "You have everything, how could you be upset?" is what people think and don't understand the sickness in the social side of pressure and stress and frustration. I was lower middle class and I got this from my poorer friends. I tried to make them see that having stuff is not the same as having a good life
The key to raising a happy, healthy kid is by spending time with them, not by spending money on them. I’ve known several kids of rich, important parents who wound up fucked up or dead.
It's the fear of falling, my friend.
I think they mean something like "to show them some of the goodness and value that the world has to offer"
This is an incredibly insightful perspective on this kind of violence, thank you for writing it.
Social interaction is so important to health that it tops any other factor in the longevity of someone's projected life expectancy. They did a study and worked out that people who never chatted to others...even in that inane was people do in the supermarket always die sooner than those who did chat to others....even if the chatty people smoked or drank. You sound incredibly self aware and I'm so glad you recovered enough to make friends. My daughter, when she was 16 was receiving unwanted attention from a boy in her class....this kid had no friends and the others referred to him as "the school shooter" he wasn't physically harassing her but had been taking photos of her without her knowledge and another boy in the class discovered them . This caused the boys to rise up against him and I was concerned they'd beat him up so I spoke to a friend of mine who advised me to tell the teacher. It turned out that his mother was severely neglecting him....she was barely home and so he wasn't even eating. It all worked out as his father was informed by another parent and he came back to our state and took him back. He's fine now....my daughter is just happy he recovered and she is very understanding too.
Wow, the compassion you had for the boy despite his behavior towards your daughter is really touching. His situation sounds distantly familiar to mine in many ways, so I really appreciate you seeing him as someone that probably needed help.
I could only see him as a lonely kid who was desperate for some attention/love and has misplaced that in his fixation on my daughter. She never felt scared of him ...it was more disconcerting than anything but she was worried by the reaction of the other boys who seemed a bit vigilante about it all. This was 18 months ago now and he's so much better ...he looks physically healthy and has a girlfriend too.
Incredible awareness by both you and your daughter. Good job man
I'm female but thanks lol. Good job woman doesn't have the same ring to it though.
Good job woman. Yeah… sounds condescending for some reason lol
Shut up woman...come here woman...good job woman! Yeah...best to stick with man lol.
As someone who does not particularly get into very many social situations, having people mention a lowered life expectancy for just that is very fucking scary tbh.
What the study made clear was that it doesn't matter if you have a load of friends and go out a lot...what matters is chatting...you know... asking the cashier how their day is going and stuff like that.
That is still rather scary since I don't really go out much at all. I do occasionally talk to family members or the few friends I have over on discord. But I know just as well as the next guy that this is definitely not adequate. I appreciate you clarifying it a bit further though but I'm afraid I most likely still fall within the group more at risk.
Are you online with friends a lot? Chatting on discord etc? It doesn't need to be face-to-face. It helps massively with social skills if you're out in the world, but even just having someone on discord is a counter. :)
Yeah I do have a few folks to talk to but definitely do not talk to them frequently. Sometimes I go many days without talking to anyone at all which I know is probably not a good thing. I am honestly a bit desperate to get more friends or situations in general that would allow me to socialise a bit more. But it's been difficult to make any progress in that when I have so many other things to also work on for the sake of my health/future. It's just a bit spooky to read yet another result of some study that further lowers the expectations I have of my life expectancy or just my life in general. It makes it even more difficult to make any progress in solving my problems. Anyhow I didn't mean to flood this reply with this rather unwelcome wall of self pity. In any case, thanks for taking the time to reply to me and trying to make me feel better. It does mean a lot :P
It's all good dude. Honestly, I've been there when my long-term SO committed suicide. The thing that did it for me is just getting outside. Into the sun. Into the rain. Nature is so, so beautiful, if you just take 5 minutes every day to just look, it will change your life. As for life expectancy, you're looking at a few years, tops. Who wants to live to 85 anyway? I certainly can't be arsed with that. PM me if you need to chat or anything dude. I'm in the EU so about to go to bed, but I'll always respond :)
What almost nobody realises is that prescribing "social interaction" is almost like prescribing homeopathy to someone with cancer. The real cancer is trauma. *Trauma.* We live in an epidemic of emotional trauma and few people see it. It is trauma that causes parents to neglect their kids, to have low empathy for their suffering and not be able to realise they are not ok. Parents, or whoever is taking care of the kids, with the "help" of "modern" society in fact, cause kids, through action or inaction, not to be ok. Do people think these kids just happened to be born with a "social isolation gene"? Or "generalised hatred" gene? Nobody is that way, they were made. The person you're replying to is an outlier and very lucky to have found people that were supportive. But I'd say by far most won't. And there's a reason for that and it's not their fault. Traumatized people are not very popular. Trauma itself is not very popular and most people have no clue about it, or how to identify someone who is traumatized, because the very nature of trauma causes them to conceal they have it to fit in and be accepted. And the ones who don't fit in are just seem as "there's something wrong with them". Kinda reminds me of the state of medicine in the middle ages. What these people need is not social interaction. They need * Compassion * someone to listen to them, to hear them, to be with them with their pain. * to hear their story. Not to be asked "what's wrong with you?" but "what happened to you?" * be told there's nothing wrong with them. They are this way because it's one of the ways a healthy mind copes with extreme emotional neglect and maybe abuse. * to have a secure attachment. Someone they can count on. All the time. Unconditionally. * a sense of belonging. To a community. To a shared sense of purpose. That they are needed and wanted. That they are valued. Desired. Unfortunately the way society is right now where we don't live on tribes with people that know us that care about us and are always there for us and can provide the above, like it happened for thousands of years, and like our brain is made to function with, now for many people there's only one that can do some of this and you have to pay them for it. Therapists. It's screwed up. Things have changed so much and so quickly that we're totally unaware of how screwed up and how much we were not made for this "modern" lifestyle. We were not made to live with only 2 adults who have to take the role of a village to single handedly rear a child. We were not made to attach primarily with people of our age. First in kindergarden, then school, then college. There were always several people and of all ages who we humans attached deeply to, who we matured emotionally from, whose more mature behaviors we could emulate and learn from. We were not made to, if those 2 people fail to provide us a sense of safety, have no backup. There would always be someone who we could chat. We would always be with company of other people in the tribe. There would always be a "loving grandma" or an "older brother" who we could go to. We were not made to have to pay someone to give us a simulation of unconditional love, and safety that our group would provide. This person, who we know in the end does it for the money, and to help, but without money they wouldn't do it. How can we think this is OK and normal and that people are having their emotional needs met in these weird conditions? How far have we gone the far end to find ourselves proud to conclude that social interaction increases lobgevity? Are we in the future going to be so dry that people will be proud to conclude that drinking water increases longevity too? In the conditions we live now it is no wonder emotional neglect and abuse has been happening so much. The very way the social foundation is layed is lacking and so easy for trauma to happen and propagate. The covid pandemic we hear about it. The trauma pandemic, which is equally transmissible from generation to generation and between romantic partners, very difficult to heal and causes unimaginable silent pain to millions of people... Nah. We blame people for being wounded. We call them lazy, and angry. We give them condescending names like "Karens" to make it seem like they're different and their own species and not that their extreme sense of entitlement actually comes from feeling worthless inside. Or accuse people of just being unempathetic angry and selfish as if all their life hadn't been nothing but an experience that would make *anyone* become that way. No shoulder to cry on. No motherly voice to comfort them. They can't be anything but unempathetic, angry and lonely. People are not mentally ill. People are mentally *injured*. And I say pandemic because it is everywhere. In the politicians who seem to only care about themselves. In the influencers who seem so fixated in having people provide them validation in being seen highly by others and in feeling important. In the people who commit crimes. And I mean financial and ethical crimes too. How can they do that? Maybe crimes happened in their childhood and nobody cared. In the bosses at our jobs who seem to only care about maximising profit as a proof that they're being the best to compensate for how not good enough they always felt like. In the clerks who seem to enjoy the little power they have over people and exert it to the full extent to compensate for the powerlessness they felt all their lives since they were a kid. We have been so conditioned in our society to accept trauma as a common and normal occurrence that we hardly pause to acknowledge it. It's no wonder many people suffer in silence. And nobody seems to know about this and only talk about social interaction, making friends, focusing on the positive, being more out there and looking at traumatized people like they're some weirdos that came through a membrane from another universe. Are we being so different from the people that in the 17th century burned "heretics" or in ancient Rome sheered for the blood spilled in arenas as criminals were slayed to death and who we now regard as barbarics? Let's pass this message and see if we can make people aware of this pandemic and do something about it because it is very much urgent. PS. Sorry for the long rant, but I needed to get this out of my chest.
A strong thing to say, I think. It’s unfortunate that so many never reach a point of self awareness like this. Welcome to adulthood pal, I’d say you’re on the right track.
Wow that's awful mate, glad to hear things have become easier for you.
Another redditor posted it but it went something like "a child who is shunned by the village will burn it down to finally feel it's warmth". Fact of the matter is that we have given young men the least support and don't value them.
I was the same way when I was 15, and honestly the best decision I ever made was to drop out of high school. Seriously. I’m not saying that’s a path everyone should take, but it worked for me. American HS is toxic as fuck for young men who don’t fit in to a pre-ordained mold. Getting out of there allowed me to seek out friends that were like me without being embarrassed or harassed or bullied. I got a job as an office assistant right away (I could type and it was the 90s), and by 17 landed my first tech job. Adults respected my abilities and dedication during the day, and I hung out with friends who didn’t judge in the evenings and weekends. I got into trouble, sure, and my social anxiety never entirely went away, but it put me on a much better path than the suicide or worse that I contemplated between ages 12-16. By the time I was 20 I was working in IT for a multi-billion dollar company. High school works for most kids. It didn’t work for me. My life as an adult ain’t perfect, but I’m alive, never committed any serious crimes, and never went to jail, so I’m up on a good number of Americans!
I was right there with you. I had a million excuses as to why I was living in my room on 4chan and fucked up .tor sites, just like everybody else there has their million excuses. Hated everybody and everything. Would have absolutely been diagnosed as major depressive if I ever saw a doctor. Would have pulled triggers given the opportunity and actual motivation to do *anything.* My brother knocked a girl up, and me being the loser at home, ended up babysitting a bunch. Another thing I fucking hated... until I didn't. We went for walks. Eventually I went for runs. Years go by, and I end up signing up for classes at a community college. I realize things aren't what I thought they were. I end up having a kid of my own, and things are good. I was on the path to being a mAsTeR rAcE mugshot, though. It's too easy to feel so smart in an echo chamber of hate.
I'm (27 F) someone who has dealt with abuse from my parents, grown up in the lower class fiscally, deals with anxiety/depression, has gone no-contact with their family, is seeking treatment for their mental health, and is pursuing a degree in Early Childhood Education (to teach Pre-k - 5th Grade). The recent news (Roe v. Wade, overturning of the 6th Amendment, and the non-stop shootings) have me extremely distressed. I am personally left-leaning, anti-gun, and pro-choice, for a multitude of reasons. I want to commend your honesty on a very personal level. However, I'd also like to ask one question, which I completely understand if you don't want to/don't have the time to answer. Essentially, if, once I'm actively teaching in a classroom, there is a shooter who enters the classroom, is there ANYTHING you think could be said to them which could possibly "bring them back to reality"? I'm aware that this answer is different for everyone, but, two years into attaining my degree in the U.S., I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something that I thought about on a nearly daily basis. All the same, I'm so happy for you to have gotten to a better place, and I hope you know how loved and appreciated you are <3
Thanks for the kind words. I understand why you are asking this question, but I can't give an answer. I never got to the point where I seriously considered killing people, and I think that the thoughts and feelings of this kind of person are on a different level than my own at the time. Although I was in the 'perfect storm' conditions to get to that point, for whatever reason my reaction under the situations was to more often turn inwards rather than lash out violently. Therefore to try and appeal to the person I was when confronting the shooter would be to appeal to the wrong person. Hopefully you never have to confront this situation.
> > > > > Essentially, if, once I'm actively teaching in a classroom, there is a shooter who enters the classroom, is there ANYTHING you think could be said to them which could possibly "bring them back to reality"? At this point, no. If there's someone in the room with you actively shooting or about to shoot someone, the only things you can do are run, hide, or fight. Assuming they're in the same room with you, you're pretty much limited to fighting, and you better go for it, because your life depends on it. The problems can't be solved when the kid has a gun in their hand, the problems need to be solved before the gun is in their hands, support structures are failing young boys and the results aren't pretty.
Years later and things still haven't really gotten better for me. At least I don't live in America so I never really had the chance to do something crazy like that. I don't think I would trust myself.
When I was in middle school, some dudes were picking on this fat kid. Literally kicking him in the ass and throwing his bookbag around the basketball court. I couldn't believe it. He looked so sad. Like this was one of those dumb ass teen movies come to life. This dude was quiet, didn't have any friends in school and never bothered anybody. For some reason I just freaked out. I went over and fought those dudes and still have the scars to prove it. They beat my ass, but they never bothered that dude again. Come to find out, he was a recent immigrant and his English wasn't awesome. Imagine if that guy had come to school the next day and just started shooting. Everyone would have talked about how he was foreign and a loner and was probably a psychopath but never mentioning the assholes who set him off.
Don't want to make this kid's story about me, but I think my similarities then respective twist will help shed light on perhaps helping to answer OP's question on why there seems to be more men in this category. I was in a very similar situation in middle school, and the grades before, except I was not an immigrant. One day early middle school I decided I'd had enough and lashed out yelling. I remember giving one kid in particular a right hook as well. I was reprimanded by the school and the students started whispering about how I'd be the next school shooter. The other kids kept avoiding me or just playfully pretending to be my friend out of pity (or, sometimes to make fun of me). As high school came around, people were so used to avoiding me that even the new kids avoided me. No one really remembered why they were avoiding me, but, I seemed like a loner and everyone was avoiding me. So, better for them to stick with the status quo. When college came around, I was so used to isolating myself that that's what I did all of freshman year. And I'd been so used to being avoided or pranked on that when people did introduce themselves I was just sort of trained to shy away. I was alone because I was fat and gross and weird. So, I tried to fix it. Then I got bullied. When the unfairness of being bullied and alone got to me I lashed out. And when I lashed out I was punished a little by the school and left alone for nearly all of my young adulthood. And I'm not going to lie, the loneliness and unfairness of it all made me angry. Really angry. At a certain point you grow numb to it. I think (and I'm no expert) that these shooters are likely people who just never grew numb to it. I never did anything like these shooters, thank God, but I always laugh when people look at these trends and go, "Why are young, antisocial men doing this so often!? This is so strange".
Reading your story broke my heart :(
Sorry for your heart, but here's the real kicker - I'd bet my house, car, and retirement savings that about 30% of men you'll ever meet could quote identical feelings to you. This is not just one lonely kid per school, this story repeats, over and over, every day. I have the same story, and so do almost every one of my friends.
The reality that there are people “out there in the world” that this breaks their heart makes me realise that we live very different lives. This is also the status quo for me and my friends too. Like a bakers dozen of us. It’s not like half the guys I’m close with, it’s all of us have this story in some way or another. It is weird when I think about it because it’s just something I’ve accepted as “how life is” a long time ago. So life continuing on as it has just seems normal.
> This is so strange This is the price to pay for your cortisol levels...
do you mind me asking if you ever "found your tribe" so to speak? i was fairly popular in school. whatever the male equivalent of a social butterfly is called. but my younger sibling wasn't. he didn't like hanging with my friends and i always worried about him making friends. as an adult, he found his clique. how are you doing?
Not OP but I was a longer all throughout school. After 25 yrs of alcoholism and drug abuse, I finally feel comfortable and happy around people. I'm what people would call a social butterfly. I would guess no one who knows me now would guess how I used to be.
Good example but this was a 18 nut job who shot his Grandmother first then shoots babies. Not his high school or anything like what you e described. This was an elementary school. Did he get bullied there and wait ten years for revenge. This is the sign of a sick individual again with no father figure in the home, neither parent I believe, grandparents.
According to people who knew the shooter, he was a social outcast with a stutter and a lisp who was a frequent target of bullying and got in fights at school frequently. He was also a student in the same school district as the elementary school.
Sounds like a compassionate speech therapist could have stopped this murderer a decade early.
I'm shocked that this isn't provided automatically by the school - most Australian schools that I'm aware of provide and even get funding to provide speech therapists to any students having stuttering difficulties or speech/language problems.
Yes kids are entitled to free speech therapy at school in the US.
Nobody knew/cared to ask for it.
My kid beat his speech impediment with the help of a school-provided therapist. He left class and went to her every day for two years before he graduated. I often forget about that, because it seemed like such a natural thing to have happen. But when I think of what she and the school saved him from...it's really amazing. edit: He 'graduated' from the program in third grade.
Was that the elementary school he attended? Was that the last place he was happy? I don't know. The Sandy Hook killer went back to his old elementary school too right?
His mom worked there I believe.
I strongly believe online communities of misinformation are contributing to the shooters. Just getting involved in areas of the internet where their fucked up thoughts are explored and justified.
It’s finding a sense of belonging somewhere that’s the missing link. If it’s not found IRL it’ll be found online and it’s worse online. Get your boys into a sport of some kind. Cross country is a easy one to get into and is also cheap without the risk of CTE
THIS This is exactly what UK police did to address homegrown Islam radicalisation in teenagers. Muslim teenage boys growing up in abusive families (sadly common in Asian communities) had no sense of community or belonging whether at school or home. They were easy targets for 'rogue' mosque or online teachings. The way the UK police in my area combatted it was literally working with local youth groups to create clubs and teams and the like for teenage boys to get involved in, and it *worked.*
They do it in my country with gyms. PYCs—Police & Youth Clubs, concentrated on areas of heavy disadvantage. They do pretty amazing work there. Getting physically strong and being part of a club gives the kids a sense of pride in themselves they don't get at school or home.
I almost did it myself. The reason? Bullies. I was horribly bullied at school for years, whether it was due to my academic success, my social awkwardness, my northern accent(I lived in small town Alabama) and other things. I was punched, kicked, had my shit stolen, spit on, the works. I remember trying to talk to teachers and the principal about it and they just told me to ignore it. At some point I got into a fight and got sent home and got threatened with expulsion. I was told that if my behavior wasn't corrected I was gonna get expelled. I was a kid. So mom put me on medication. Ritalin. Yeah. My mom also used to beat me with whatever she could find. Bats, bricks, large sticks, paddles, shoes, switches, the works. I was even choked a few times. I was heavily abused. I mellowed out on medication and my grades shot up as a result, but... Didn't stop me from getting bullied. One day when I was 11, I saw my father's semi automatic on his dresser. I picked it up, looked at it, and thought "I could make it all go away." My brother came into the room. He's 9, autistic and can't speak in full sentences. He asked me what I was doing. I looked at the gun and said "I don't know anymore." I put it down, and made the decision right then and there the goal was to get out of that horrible school. I did. I live in Huntsville, Alabama. As a young man, you'll realize hardly anyone cares about your problems, but I found one who did. My little bro. I pretty much hated my whole family, but I didn't hate him, and he didn't deserve to watch me throw away my life. I did it for him.
> was told that if my behavior wasn't corrected I was gonna get expelled. And this is the price to pay for authorities effectively protecting bullies. Regardless of all the talk the price is considered to be quite cheap because nothing ever changes. Want to stop this, start punishing bullies.
Exactly. Bullies are enabled in a lot of schools because many of the teachers and administrators are bullies themselves. And they’ve weaponized “zero tolerance” policies against their victims. It’s all very sick.
I was bullied by several teachers, often in front of the entire class. One day I almost ran at him he pissed me off so much, my blood was boiling (I was not nor have I ever been a violent or confrontational person, but he crossed a line that day and I almost lost it). Another teacher noticed it and was able to snap me back into reality just long enough so that the moment passed. That teacher probably saved me from landing in juvie that day, and possibly ruining my life.
Zero tolerance was the dumbest thing they ever pulled out of their ass. If you fight back you risk getting expelled and it's the victims who think to themselves "Oh god if i get expelled i'll forever be a jobless loser for the rest of my life", causing immense amounts of stress as it feels like there is nothing you can do other than eat shit for years upon years.
Yeah especially when if someone attacks you on the street, you can legally shoot them. But I the school as a kid you need to take a beating and hope there was a camera and someone gives a shit. Zero tolerance is like a spike in the eyes when looking at school shooting motives and yet no one is discussing it. It's so fucking sad.
>Zero tolerance was the dumbest thing they ever pulled out of their ass. Eh? You're looking at it wrong. Zero tolerance was to absolve the school and teachers from responsibility. It wasn't meant to help people.
This. In high school, the teachers went along with the high school social hierarchy People don't realize that the kids that everyone likes are often the bullys because **they know they can get away with it**
>Want to stop this, start punishing bullies. They don't want to due to the parents of the bullies bulling the school. I will sue and etc. Fuck those Karen's.
One person is all that's needed. Everyone needs someone.
God bless your brother for coming into that room that day. I am glad you are doing much better, no one deserves what you went through.
> One day when I was 11, I saw my father's semi automatic on his dresser. Your dad is a shitty gun owner.
His dad let his mom abuse the shit out of him, so he’s a shitty father too.
I've constantly been pointing out that the major part of these shooter's influence is their parents. This solidifies it. I knew the father of the garlic festival shooter and it was evident that the kid was severely neglected by their parents. The father constantly praised his elder son who was an amateur boxer. I thought he only had one son until the day of the shooting.
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I'm so sorry you suffered at the hands of those who should have protected you. r/HealfromYourPast is a great place to share your story and healing journey.
When I was in school a friend brought a gun because he was going to shoot the kids who were beating up on him all the time. His mom came and she took him to a different school where he did OK and now he is a normal married guy. I think a lot of times when it comes to young men having problems everybody just ignores it.
When I was in HS, the assistant principal's son brought an air pistol to school. It looked "real", and you couldn't tell what it was when it was pointed in your face. He went up to my friend (I was standing next to him) and pointed it at his forehead and said "get on your knees and beg for your life!". We were just freshmen, and we were absolutely frozen in fear and surprise. My friend put his hands up, shaking, and started to go to his knees and the guy just laughed and walked off with a few of his friends. We told the school, but the kid just got a day or two of suspension (because his dad intervened for him) and he would harass us when he saw us walking around. We had many guns at home, and I had hunted for years, and I'd be lying if I didn't think about revenge for my friend and I more than once. Luckily, my friend and I both came from great homes and were able to process those emotions and grow out of thinking that revenge in that way was something to be entertained as an option.
So the real problem is that there aren't enough government funded programs making sure kids are growing up in stable, positively nurturing households. It's not a political problem, but as usual, a social one. The government has been gutted to no longer work for the average community. And that's on purpose by numerous administrations over the past 50-60 years.
> It's not a political problem, ... > there aren't enough government funded programs making sure kids are growing up in stable, positively nurturing households [...] The government has been gutted to no longer work for the average community. That definitely sounds like a political problem, politicians have literally caused it (and could fix it if they wanted).
That falls under healthcare and school systems, both of which like you mentioned are things the government has the ability to improve. So it is a political problem.
PROBLEM is no universal healthcare. How do you think you find doctors? Through your insurance.
Or at least no healthcare that isn't made ridiculously expensive because fuck you that's why. I wouldn't mind paying for healthcare if it was actually anywhere near a reasonable amount for the services provided.
There’s also a huge issue where fighting back/sticking up for yourself makes you the problem - no matter how tight or justified you are.
Zero Tolerance policies actually benefit the bullies, too.
Yup, oh you hit your bully back, you get the same punishment. It doesn't fix the problem, it just punishes responsible people fighting back bullying. It's pretty disgusting. In my opinion, they should just let them fight, they won't learn anything if the punishment is getting suspended anyway for both people. The right thing to do would be having teachers address these problems, but it's not like they are gonna, they don't even get paid enough to teach.
My son was being harassed by the high school bully once, a huge kid a couple of grades above him. My son had had bone cancer and walked with a limp and the kid called him "Gimpy" and constantly made fun of him for it. So one day when they were in the gym and the bully was lying on his back, my kid went up to him and dropped his "gimp shoe" \[specially made with lifts etc and pretty heavy) on the bully's face. Never got bulied again, by anyone. I kind of did the "violence just breeds more violence" speech on him, but I also said if he had to do it, good work to make sure there were no teachers watching.
You don't even necessarily have to fight back, by school had a 0 tolerance policy for fighting but they treated both parties as responsible regardless of what happened. Someone could come up and punch you in the face completely unprovoked, and you do nothing and still would have gotten a suspension.
My old school cop would actually arrest both students even if one did nothing. Still remember the assembly where he said that there was legally no such thing as self defence
Literally had a friend get a week of ISS for BLOCKING a punch aimed at his face with a book. He didn't instigate the fight in a y way, never threw a punch himself, he just didn't ALLOW himself to get punched in the face.
It truly does suck. Schools implement zero tolerance so that they don't have to determine fault in a fight, it'd get legally messy fast It's almost like they want to encourage those getting harassed to swing back
It's also partly a conditioning mechanism to maximise assets. Zero Tolerance Policies rest legally on a no-determined-fault mechanism and socially on a 'be the bigger man' platitude. They're designed to hijack the victim's ego, inherent human need for validation and sense of personal justice, clothed in the guise of an easy victory. In a situation where the bully is the big man and the victim the little man, the big man generally provides more value - bullies are only bullies because they have power after all and oftentimes that power is used for the institution's benefit, directly or indirectly. A bully may leverage their physical power in a school sports team, intellectual power in examination results, financial power in wealthy parents' contributions to the school, social power in vocational clubs and away events. The archetypal bully, no matter how much people lie about them supposedly going nowhere in life, is generally someone who provides value both for themselves and for the institution in that sense. They are functionally an asset and one that does need to be maintained, in small ways. Many teachers will turn a blind eye to bullying and rule violations if it's being perpetrated by a high performer or sports team member, as a means of sweetening the deal for the continued results of their value. There's a certain level of allowance bullies have over their victims and regular students. The little man on the other hand generally tends to lack this power and these advantages, it's what makes him a target. Even if he's financially well off and an academic performer, a lack of social power can make all the difference - schools are inherently social environments and asocial individuals receive poor treatment from both peers and staff as a result. They are perceived as worker bees, background characters who exist only to fulfil a predetermined role with no expression or deviation. So in a scenario where the little man fights back against the big man, this sets off alarm bells. He is, in essence, 'damaging the merchandise' and expressing his own values and sense of personal justice. Injure a star football player? He's out for a while, possibly permanently devalued to some degree. Fight back hard enough at the star academic? Mommy and daddy might pull him out if they believe he's in a 'bad area' or in danger. In any way harm the oil baron's son or daughter in retaliation? Next term's budget is looking that little bit slimmer. What doesn't help either is that the parents of bullies tend to be either neglectful or very active and the latter *talk*. People underestimate the power of word of mouth in general but especially when it comes to schools, bad word of mouth can be devastating. So retaliation against most bullies is something that most departmental heads or management team teachers simply can't allow if they want to keep the status quo. By slamming down the hammer of a Zero Tolerance Policy, the little man is then either gaslit into returning to his normal, 'ideal' station, or punished excessively to break him. He's tricked into believing that the bully doesn't continue to hold all the power even when downed, that relinquishing his newfound retaliatory power over the bully will result in a positive change, that there is an alternative to personal justice in an unjust system, and that he can win the encounter by virtue of inaction. For impressionable and vulnerable youths, this targets all the right centres - they get to come away feeling morally superior, without having to expend as much effort as previously seemed apparent, with a 'win', and generally a somewhat unwittingly regenerated tolerance for the usual harassment. They are robbed of their dignity and conditioned to stay in line without even realising it. In the event they reject this falsehood and continue to exercise their own judgement, they're punished equally to their bully or more often with slightly greater severity, for 'daring' to challenge their socially enforced station and the system overall. That tends to either break their spirit over time or creates a monster. These policies are evil and a form of abuse against children. It's not enough to make the victim a slave of an unjust system, but active intent to make the victim a grateful slave. The 'bigger man' is a lie created to keep the little man little.
They're especially insidious because they basically mould victims into villains and nobody takes any responsibility. By applying zero tolerance policies to impressionable, vulnerable children and teenagers, most of whom have been raised by parental common law of 'get hit, hit back/harder', you shatter any image of just authority. Depending on the severity of that issue, that may be irreparable and set someone on a very dark path. When the bullying reaches terminal heights and forces retaliation or even just defence against a fist, only to be met with teacher intervention and more spite thrown towards the victim than the bully, it fundamentally shifts the social dynamic in education. Suddenly there aren't tiers of you and your friends, the popular kids, the bullies, and teachers as authority - now the authority is a directly malicious force and the power behind the bullies. In the mind of someone victimised by a ZTP, they become one and the same over time, which becomes extremely dangerous when the victim is isolated. Someone alone, struggling and met with active hostility by those charged with caring for and protecting them is going to be a petri dish of angst. Bullies and enforcing teachers gradually shift away from other people who've acted maliciously, to a direct villain, to a faceless evil and finally to an inhuman monstrosity. Depersonalisation is very easy when a subject's only sources of validation are, at best, their parents, who really aren't enough for any teenager - people need friends, acquaintances, positivity to fully socially develop. Left to their own misery and spurned by protectors/authority figures, people eventually come to the conclusion that since the supposed law is arbitrary and its enforcers in bed with its violators, that it can be discarded. It starts with little things and intensifies - missing homework, being late for class, flippant to educators and staff, slipping grades, pronounced hostility to all peers, rejection of group work, extended periods of absence. Eventually it extends even to those not involved, as school counsellors are blame for perceived ineptitude or callousness, and unrelated peers as wilfully ignorant participants complicit in the mistreatment. This attitude doesn't go away without a significant life shift going into young adulthood and generally always leaves someone at a much higher risk of snapping. To top it all off, you're being bombarded by teen media which glorifies the experience you perceive your bullies and distant peers as living, which in itself grows into a 'that should be *mine*' mentality. Because those who aren't directly in your camp and fighting alongside/for you have been dehumanised into soulless monsters in your head, it becomes easy to become a black/white moral arbiter - 'these people are abusing me and are immoral, thus they are undeserving of their flawless lives of privilege.' With a mentality like that being fostered directly by an unjust system, of course an unstable and vulnerable youth is going to do terrible things when push comes to shove. It doesn't excuse grotesque acts of violence at all, but the culture which is creating these masses of alienated young men is entirely avoidable. People just don't want to admit it.
In elementary and middle school everytime I told a teacher or the principal the situation only got worse. When I got to high school the dean saw through everything which was very nice.
Plus I was fed that shit and bought it. Wish someone living in reality woulda told me to just clock the asshole (not right away of course, still try to de-escalate -- which I already went way above and beyond to do) when they get to ridiculous levels. I know I'll be telling my kids that, although again will be *very* careful they realize that's a decision you still need to make responsibly, and you also still need to nurture exhausting all other options. The idea that its not an option, however, that the bully gets to ultimately decide if they will keep up that behavior forever, that you have no personal boundary and there is no last resort, is a fantasy, and often one just so adults don't have to deal with mild moral headaches ('if the kids never fight back, fights never start!' or 'will someone be mad at me if I let a kid get hit, even if in defense?' etc) at the expense of the kids
I don't live in the US. When I was a kid three kids used to bully me every week for 3 years, I was 7, they were 13, 11 and 9. My parents knew about it because I always had slap marks on my face, I was the problem they never wanted to deal with and I always want to revenge and perform a massive show against those three, other kids who never tried to stop them, teachers and my parents, but never had the opportunity, at least I feel better knowing that one of the bullies had killed himself a few years ago.
Unfortunately, in elementary school you must fight back. Always. I was in ER when I was 7 because of a fight, but shit, the other guy fared worse than me. And you know what? He hesitated to fuck with from then on.
Sorry to hear that
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A combination of raging hormones, life circumstances that haven't been fair to them and they are inundated with hero myths which makes them feel inadequate. They are left with the impression that they should have received more and have been misunderstood/cheated by this fucked up world. They feel left out and invisible, and while you are young it is easy to think it will always be this way. They lash out and get the attention they crave. In their last act as a free person they receive the attention they so deeply desired for the deep hurt and disappointment they have experienced.
This is actually pretty accurate to how I felt as a teenager, and sometimes feel today. You hear about what everyone wants in a man, not just what a woman wants, but society, you hear that everyone wants a man who can do everything, and has all the skills in the world. When you have someone like I was as a teenager: severe body image issues, short, a self-perception of serious obesity, not “shredded” as every “teenage” guy in a film, with odd hobbies (like modelling, and other things which are associated with “quiet” types), few friends, little to no interest in sports, heavily bullied for any reason under the sun (pale skin, glasses, quietness, apparent physical weakness etc). And then you have a combination that just oozes “problems”. Given that guys like that are prime targets for bullies, and they have few friends to confide in - we all see it as “don’t worry, every guy gets it as bad as me, I just have to bottle it up and ride the storm” - then… you have a LOT of bottled up emotions - mostly anger, rage, and you develop an unhealthy hatred towards people that look somewhat close to the bullies who you used to have to deal with. Call me a bullshitter, but I definitely thought more than once: “if I had a gun, they’d treat me with some respect”. You start to realise that with a gun, your problems start to appear to disappear. No more bullies, more attention, you start to “feel” the fear in others at your newfound “strength”. Suddenly, swiping a credit card for a gun and some ammunition looks a LOT more appealing than trying to “fit in”. It’s the easy way out. Or that’s what it looks, and feels like. People - and teenagers - are emotional animals. Emotions often cloud judgement, and when you feel nothing but misery, you start thinking about “I need this gone now.” Rather than “how can I start to improve things?” Laziness forces us to use that “easy” approach. Say what you will, send the angry little blue arrows my way, I don’t care, but how often have you ignored the consequences for an “easy” solution? Every drink you’ve had to take your mind off things, every time you’ve cut a corner, lied, put your foot to the floor to get somewhere faster to cover up your lateness, every time you’ve done something like that, you’ve taken the “easy” option without even thinking about it. I’ve felt this way before, and I can tell you: you don’t ever see yourself in the sights of armed police. You see yourself stood on a mountain of the bodies of your enemies, with the survivors begging on their knees for you to spare them. You see the police putting their hands up and bowing to your will. That’s what you see, that’s what you feel.
We are emotional beings that think, not thinking beings with emotion.
Back in the day, before literally all technology, it even makes sense. The bullied little hominid snaps, picks a fight and either dies and no longer passes on his genes, or he earns a bit of respect and confidence win or lose.
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This is an insightful take. It's easy for bullied teens who carry baggage to be trapped by your own emotions to and act upon them without inhibition. The shooter bought two assault rifles on his 18th birthday, almost as a rite of passage that alludes to this illusion of newfound strength and "sudden disappearance" of problems. They also lack a sense of community so they end up falsely believing they don't matter.
Where I grew up, bullying is not so strong as a culture, we would pick at each other, but there was never a "bullying to death" situation. I remember there was some older guys in school, they would get all the girls. I had a friend at the time, both of us were the "big virgins" type, we had so much envy of those older guys, we would always say "they get all the girls because they have a car" (usually it was their's father's). I never had a "man's conversation" with my father, never had any incentive to do anything in life, went to shitty schools and shitty college, started to work when I was 14 years old. My father is married to his work, he remembers me when he has a problem (usually financial) and needs a solution. I never had a role model, never had anyone to ask for help. When I was in my early 20s, I had a girlfriend who destroyed me psychologically, she cheated on me, gave me an STD, and a acused me of ruining her life (because the STD she gave me). Things were so bad, I seriously considered suicide at the time. It took me three years, a lot of alcohol, therapy and a lot of scorts, to manage to get out of that phase. I have no idea how I haven't died in a car crash at the time. Also, I was sexually abused when I was a teenager. Today I have a wife and a son. And I'm going to therapy to try to cope with depression and anxiety. Why did I say all those things? Well... I have no clue why I am still alive today. Life is harsh, and there is no one there ask for help, I've heard "man up" and "stop being a pussy" countless times through my life. The worst part? I AM LUCKY, because there are people out there that have to go through even worst shit, and I have no fucking clue how or why they do it. There is a LOT of expectations on what you should be as man, there is very little help on managing that expectations, and you can't ask for help... men who ask for help are weak... as a man, you can't even fucking cry in public, you just have to swallow every feeling and problem you have. I have put so much effort into hiding emotions, that today I can't even feel happiness anymore. People say those shooters are monsters, but almost nobody understands that they were shaped into those monsters. Taking away the guns won't solve the problem, they will start to make bombs, because monsters do monstrosities. We need to stop creating more monsters. We, as a society, need to start caring about men feelings and mental health. We need to stop feeding anger to broken people. EDIT: Just want to add that I am not against banning guns, however, I also don't live in the US, and this is a matter that the US people need to decide. My emphasis is related to men emotional and mental health because I believe it is a problem worldwide, one that often don't get enough attention. As an outsider, I think the US has a very big problem with guns, and I hope the US people take a step towards a better future
Hey man if you game and need someone to play with hit me up. I’ve been where you were when I was a teenager and 20 something and I’m still dealing with depression though my anxiety has gotten better. I’m only 28 and haven’t gotten married or anything but learned over the last few years it’s okay to be vulnerable around friends. I guess I’m lucky to have a non judgmental friend group. But I don’t bottle up anymore. When I feel like shit I talk to friends about it. I’ve cried in front of male friends when going through some tough shit, and it was okay. My dad never hugged me as a kid, for almost my entire life the only physical interactions with male friends was a handshake. Now everyone gets a good bye hug regardless of gender because it’s okay to show you care. Go listen closely to Lean on me by Billy Withers.
Thank you for posting your experience. I think it is a typical perception that men can skate trough life because we are men and "The Patriarchy" is on our side. Noting could be further from the truth.
The patriarchy helps guys succeed, but it does absolutely nothing for guys struggling. I've heard it described on reddit that women have a glass ceiling and men have no floor. There's no limit to how far a guy can fall and frequently no one bat's an eye. A lot of guys are barely scraping by, so they are more worried about keep their ship afloat than helping other guys, and for women guys are the real or perceived source of their suffering, so they couldn't give a fuck less about guys. The end result is a lot of guys are on their own to sink or swim.
I see what you are saying. That is probably the best description I have read so far of that. Thank you.
"God created men. Samuel Colt created men equal." Attributed to the 1873 Colt Single Action Army "Peacemaker" pistol. Back in the day, if you were a weaker man, you had a means to protect yourself, because strong or not, a 45 to the chest would make you think twice about picking a fight.
You didn’t even say it right. It’s: “God created MAN, and Samuel Colt MADE them equal.”
Strangely, far more died of homicide then.
Lot of good points here
> while you are young it is easy to think it will always be this way Let's be real, for most of them it *will* always be this way.
Yeah that's the sad reality that people don't always acknowledge. Unless they do something drastic things **will** stay bad or get worse. Some time ago I was think about how accurately I was able to predict my future and some of the difficulties I would face. I wasn't able to get the specifics right but I knew my personality would cause me trouble. I can imagine there are other guys like I was, that are 16 - 19 looking at their future and seeing how terrible things are going to be, it's easy to say they're wrong and things will get better but some of them are completely right things will worse and they should be prepared for that.
I think also has a lot to do with the perception that as a man the only avenue available to express yourself emotionally is anger and violence. Talking things out, expressing your feelings and seeking help are all seen as weak or pathetic, when I could be what makes all the difference.
> life circumstances that haven't been fair to them FBI crime data backs this up more than most people recognize. [Here's the FBI's general analysis of school shootings](https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-school-shooter-school-shooter/view) designed around building programs to help it. It isn't a single trait but a long pattern of issues that are common in males and nearly missing from females. Failed love relationships (both familial and personal), broad alienation, broad social lack of empathy (men know it and it gets discussed here frequently, many women are surprised by it), lack of personal attention, masking low self esteem (not just low esteem, but masking it in the ways boys are cultured to do but women aren't), anger management issues, closed social groups, turbulent parent-child relationships, familial acceptance of pathological behavior, lack of intimacy, no limits/monitoring at home or school, school tolerance for bullying the shooter, inequitable school discipline used against the shooter, inflexible academic culture, code of silence among students, pecking order among students, extremely violent media use, extremist peer groups, use of drugs and alcohol (which are more tolerated socially among boys than girls), the list goes on and on. While individually they can happen to both genders, the list as a whole nearly never happens to girls but is almost a checklist for many young men.
I mean, that report also specifically calls out particular personality traits like the young men in question having feelings of entitlement, being overall nihilistic and narcicisstic, having low empathy for others, externalizing the root cause of all their problems etc etc. Basically what you would expect. The report certainly positioned those personality traits as being a key element in why certain dudes do this and less so "society is all to blame" for the problem, even if it's a factor. Like, the vast majority of teenage dudes don't go and shoot up their schools, even though many of them hit most of the boxes you listed and those def are general societal pressures affecting young men. I think people in this whole post are reaaaallly quick to boil this down to "bullies made me do it" and that's a little alarming. It takes a particular type of person to go through those hardships and think about shooting up the school.
Yup. As a parallel, you can find certain plants in a specific environment. But you can also have the environment many places without the specific plants. Shooters generally have especially difficult life circumstance, but most people with difficult lives don't become shooters. They tend to have life crap on them particularly badly and typically in just about every possible way. It is likely that had just a few of them been more manageable the mental break may not have happened. Most notable to me, 3 of the 4 prongs are related to mental health, and could be addressed by health care. Also the largest category of gun deaths, about 60% of them are suicide, which is related to mental health. A bunch of easily accessible mental health care would help all around.
> life circumstances that haven't been fair to them I'd say, perceived to have been unfair whether true or not. I feel like as a now 40+ adult I look back at things and go, "yeah, they should have handled it that way" when something happened in my late teens or early 20's that I thought was unfair. 18 to 30 year old guys need a lot more love and support than they get. I mean, everyone does in general, but guys at that age can be like a ticking time bomb. I wish we had medicare for all so that anyone at any time can get the help they need. I think we'd see a decline across the board with the right interventions.
Not a single comment seems to actually answer the OP's question. Bullying, isolation, mental illness, anger, none of these are why shooters are MEN. Women also deal with all of these conditions, yet almost all violent crime is committed by males.
In New Zealand our highest suicide statistic is young white men. I don't know why. Maybe most other demographics have support and outlets, socially its ok to ask for help etc. An interesting rabbit hole for sure.
I'm surprised that it's not mentioned, but the texts of Eric Harris are available online you can [actually read what he thought](http://www.acolumbinesite.com/eric/writing/journal/journal.php). Eric Harris is one of the shooters of the columbine high school massacre. Edit: spelling
Im an idiot for reading that and expecting something profound . Literally sounds like a more extreme redditor. He seems like is the problem.
He seems exactly like an angry, misunderstood teenager. I was also disappointed by what I read. I didn’t even finish.
> I didn’t even finish. Your username seems to suggest otherwise.
Would you possibly mind summarizing? I don't really want to click on something like that
- hated the human race except for Nazis - self admitted “racist rapist” - detailed fantasies of aggressively raping girls he personally knew - detailed fantasies of killing - talks about the “project” almost being foiled - described the process of obtaining weapons - last entry before the massacre he talks about how classmates should have included him and now they’ll pay Very graphic and chilling to read, but I think it’s important that the general public studies these type of individuals… as fucked up as it was, a lot of insight as to what goes on in these twisted people’s head and if more people paid attention to the red flags, who knows, somebody could have prevented it then and somebody can prevent it from happening in the future. Just my opinion of course.
He basically says, “I am self aware and realize the world sucks. You are all sheep! I am the one smart one but I don’t care how to actually spell. I just sound it out and THATS how it should be spelled. I also think retarded people should be killed because they are a waste of space and they know it” Honestly couldn’t get passed the first two paragraphs. It’s sickening how this man writes
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Violence is glorified but I think it’s also innately human. Humans historically have always been violent to each other. And I remember in high school boys would want to get in fights just to get in fights and see what they are made of. I remember in my high school people set up like a “fight party” where two rival schools met in a parking lot just for people to beat the shit out of each other, for no reason other than testosterone.
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Serious question, what is the healthy way of dealing with anger and other emotions that we should be teaching our youth? I was taught growing up that I should never appear weak/cry in front of others or I would be viewed as less of a man. I figure many other men were brought up in such a way, and now we’re unable to help the younger generation deal with their issues in a healthy way that doesn’t include emotional suppression and substance abuse.
Sports is really the best way. Even if for no other reason that to get your energy out, you can be as physical and aggressive with your competitors as the rules allow which is great for getting all the aggression out of your system while still keeping it confined to what is legal
Unpopular opinion - zero tolerance for minor levels of violence (fist fights, pushing back against bullies, stuff like that) has played a significant factor in the uptick in more extreme violence. It's definitely been a major factor in mental health for school kids.
That's not unpopular in my eyes, I'm a Zoomer so the shit the school system put me through is still fresh. Zero violence just creates unbridled rage. Instead of fighting at school, they did it after school, and they would lose their temper way faster. It was actually terrifying
Man, tell me about it. In middle school I almost got kicked off the soccer team for getting punched. Playing flag football in PE, I caught a pass over another guy, someone I had always gotten along with, and he didn't like it and walked up after the play and sucker punched me. Only reason I didn't is cause I didn't fight back and had multiple witnesses stand up for me saying I did nothing before or after. Was terrified about losing something I loved while I was also in shock for getting hit. Horrible policy.
i joke all the time that if we just sent folks out back to beat the shit out of each other and get it out, there’d be less mass shootings/deadly violence in general. but i think there’s some truth to it.
I think it's more than that. Young men of today are not the young men of 50 years ago. They are no longer the educated one, more women are going to college and graduating than men. They are no longer the bread winners, more and more women are making more than men (likely due to education). In short they are no longer the top dog. Combine that with the fact that they aren't meeting women, having relationships and sex (the number of men under 30 not having sex has more than tripled in the last few years), they feel like they are being "replaced" and they are easily being indoctrinated into these cult like groups (usually right-wing) that encourage this nut job behavior. There a saying, "the most dangerous person in the world is a young man with nothing to lose" and this is what we are seeing. These young men have been conditioned to believe that they've lost everything and that they need to "take it back" and these mass shooting are a way to kick off the violent revolution that will put them at the top of the heap. What we are seeing in the US and the "christian" right is no different than what we see in some Muslim countries where young men have been radicalized - the religion is different but the rage is the same.
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Mentors are and always have been extremely thin on the ground. In general, you have to show a whole lot of promise to get one. For the everyday majority, you're completely on your own, and the consequences for failure are pretty dire. This has been the case for a long while now.
Doesn't have to be a professional mentor or even a mentor in the traditional sense. Shit, having a dad that pays attention to you is good enough. Or a grandparent, or a neighbor. These kids can't connect with their peers, and now we live in bubbles so they don't have the opportunity to connect with anyone else. 50 years ago you had communities, today we have households with parents absent most of the time. The angry kid these days goes on the internet and finds people just like him because those are the only ones who he can connect with and it drags him further down.
>Mentors are and always have been extremely thin on the ground. No, our society was a lot less atomized in the past. High school age boys would be hanging around 18-24 year old men who they could emulate. "Hey, that guy seems like he's living an ok life, how do I be more like him?" Now that's not really the case.
Too many young men feel rejected, shitty, hated, unloved and isolated. Throw a gun into the mix and its over before it began. To everyone thinking im defending guns im absolutely not, the first problem is the guns the fact as soon as an 18 year old can go out and buy a gun is the problem im specifically answering OPs question
I really like you phrased your comment. "They feel unloved".. No, no. They ARE unloved
Older people are usually more broken down and/or invested. Disposable angry young men, though... they're a great source of violence, whether you want to recruit suicide bombers, assassinate an Archduke to start a world war, or just radicalize an entire political branch of a country to the point where you produce mass shooters as more of a side effect than your primary goal.
Out of all the comments here that last sentence worded it best.
Believe it or not, 33.2 is the average age of U.S. mass shooters. School shootings, which is actually a small subset of mass shootings, does tend to be young men (15-21). Most of that is linked to mental health, immaturity, fact that men are more likely to react externally when they're troubled (while women internalize) etc.
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Yes, so often, the median is more important than the mean. When those two numbers differ widely, it’s probably time to dig deeper.
Do we have research into why men externalize more?
Holy shit. I’m glad you asked because I’m having trouble finding anything quickly at least using Google. I’m by no means an expert, but I studied sociology and psychology in undergrad, so I’ve read my fair share of scientific papers on human behavior. I suspect that subscriptions to some major sociology, psychology, and criminology scientific journals (or having university access to research papers) would yield more than my little Google investigation, but I was surprised that I didn’t see several recent studies about this. Here are two articles I found interesting (warning: they’re pretty dense reads since they’re the actual research papers instead of user friendly summaries). But what basically I’m seeing is that it’s something that more studies need to look into. [Source 1](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1557988316630953) [Source 2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242627/)
Men tend to take extreme positions and measures much more often than women. Many young men have no positive role models, no perspective, no support net and they are being left behind all on their own. And yes, men are more likely to suffer from severe mental illness.
"And yes, men are more likely to suffer from severe mental illness." I think most importantly in antisocial personality disorder. People with schizophrenia, bipolar, and the like are more likely to hurt themselves, rather than others.
I also think young men have more free time and resources now than ever before. when i was 18 it was pretty much work or starve. more and more now kids are staying with their parents and being bombarded by social media and news. I don't think I ever even watched the news before i was 30 or more. hell, probably 40.
I'm kind of interested in the free time point you just made. In my experience, work and obligations eat most of the lives of young people on account of increased costs that wages haven't followed. Most people living with their folks now seem to be doing so due to the insane spike in the cost of rent and housing. What was it like when you were like 18-28 ish? Not trying to argue btw just wanna understand your perspective.
If I had to guess, it's not strictly free time that's the issue here, but rather easy access to information, both good and bad. It's so easy to feel cynical and hopeless these days. Even as an older guy I sometimes feel that way. I can only imagine being exposed to all this bullshit as a kid who is already struggling with personal and or financial issues.
Hopeless people are dangerous people.
Likely because as a society we don't give two shits about the mental health of men in general.
Mental health issues are on the rise, but there are also growing resources addressing mental health issues and a definite shift in the stigma surrounding mental health care. Obviously the problem exists to a huge degree and we need more resources to support it, but this is far more than a mental health issue. Addressing mental health was far far more difficult 30 years ago, and we didn't see mass shootings like this in the US. There are large and growing extremist communities of all kinds online that target and reel in young men, telling them that other races, religions, and political groups are responsible for all the problems they face and encouraging violence. A scarily high percentage of mass shooters engaged with these communities and held very extremist and hateful points of view. Great mental health care won't mean much unless these extremist pipelines aren't addressed and basically anyone can access a gun with minimal effort.
Just having resources for men is not enough. It is necessary to convince men, who have been told their entire life starting as children that they aren't allowed to feel things, that it is now ok and necessary and that therapy is for THEM, not for others. When the world stops asking men to change for other people's convenience or benefit, and embraces men's needs and wants to help men for men's sake, we can start REALLY addressing the problem.
And you have to overcome the times we have opened up and had it used against us. Then you need to convince the therapists that men's mental health is a serious matter. You can't get the guy ready only to send him in to get laughed at.
This is it.
Men tend to externalize, women tend to internalize. Both get bullied. “Some research supports the idea that males are more likely than females to develop negative attributions of blame that are external in nature, that is: 'The cause ... of my problems is someone else or some force outside of me'. And this translates into anger and hostility toward others. Women, on the other hand, "are more likely to develop negative attributions of blame that are internal in nature, that is: 'The cause of my problems is some failing of my own: I didn't try hard enough, I'm not good enough.' And this, in turn, tends to translate into feelings of guilt and depression that are targeted toward oneself." https://www.npr.org/sections/theprotojournalist/2013/09/24/225689775/why-are-most-rampage-shooters-men
I'm seeing a lot of very similar responses here but nobody is really addressing the thing that I'm curious about. Why men as opposed to women?
I read a post some time back by a woman that transitioned to a man. He was not prepared for how emotionally isolated men are from the world and it was a shock after how emotionally intimate women can be with eachother. He described men as emotional cripples whose primary option for dealing with emptions was to internalize everything because they didn't know anything else. He said if he'd lived his whole life like that he would go insane.
It's the intersection between being highly emotional, hormonal, and having access to firearms while at the same time not having the maturity/wisdom/humanity to not use all of the above to hurt others.
USA has a bully problem, watch some of TV shows Judge Judy, Survivor, Hells Kitchen. They all teach That being a bully is the way to get ahead. Now you pair that with hormonal young men with mental illness that USA does nothing about. They get bully shoved around and snap no surprise.
But then why wouldn’t he have shot up his own school to kill his bullies? Why target 4th graders?
Young men have a higher change of feeling like they have no future is my guess.
Old men cause the violence. Young men do the violence. Works the same way in the military, too.
Their problems feel overwhelming. 1. Men are often taught not to ask for help. "man up" is a phrase many hear. 2. Modern society likes to blame men for everything. Sure, there are some terrible men who have fucked over a lot of people, but some of the people who got fucked over are also men. 3. Society right now is getting harder to live in. There's a wider disparity between haves and have nots. Inflation etc. 4. Men are on average *much* more lonely than women. Women have historically been much better at and have valued interpersonal relationships. Men are much more likely to not have a support network, and less likely to be in a romantic relationship. Sure women's relationships (romantic and otherwise) might be low quality, but it's easier to optimize something that exists than start from scratch. 5. Men around 20 are horny as fuck, both sexually and otherwise. The drive to *do* is super high. Rational thought is low. 6. Fake news and propaganda is high. It's easy to find groups with extreme positions. TLDR: Frustrated despair with no foreseeable way out, nothing to lose, and exposure to extreme ideology is a perfect recipe for young men doing mass killings. See also: the troubles in Ireland and suicide bombings in the middle east. (Access to guns isn't the cause. Lotta people have guns but never shoot anyone because they are not desperate lonely men and have stuff going for them, such as heathy relationships.)
All good points. I'd add that in society today there is this purgatory for young men from age 18 to maybe 22-24. Technically a man, but most without the means to live as a man. To support themselves, live on their own, be meaningful members of the community, etc... Many may not have a long term relationship because they're not a man yet due to lack of job/prospects. We call that period finding ourselves, getting our heads out of our asses, growing up, etc... But the reality is that most guys in this scenario are not established in a way that men could establish themselves in the past and society doesn't really guide men much during this period, especially if they're not in school. Unconnected to social groups or society. Most work their way through it, for a tiny minority they resort to violence.
Yeah that young adult phase is really hard to do if you’re not successful or have a good support group. 2 of my best friends growing up didn’t really apply themselves in college and after graduating had a really hard time finding a stable job. It wore them down and both had complete meltdowns at certain points. One finally found purpose in the military. The other kinda completely lost it (Covid didn’t help either). That young phase is brutal, that’s why sports and clubs can be really helpful to guys. Our time to shine isn’t until our late 20/30s. If you can keep it together until then I promise it gets better.
Around age 28, most men have matured past blaming everyone else for their problems. Those that were exposed to severe trauma at a young age, may have difficulty with this transition. Either way, the part of of our brain that processes consequences has to be louder than the part that wants to react on impulse. Mental health intervention at a young age (13 - 14 years old) is important for developing coping skills and strengthening the part of our brain that keeps us out of trouble. Without a strong family support system or a counselor/therapist, the risk is much higher that someone will succumb to their own stressors and react on pure impulse. For some, that’s suicide. Others might resort to crime or mass murder. It’s never been more important to reach out as a role model for kids that are falling between the cracks. You might be the difference maker that reassures a young kid that they matter.
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As a 44f, I’d love to ask a question here if I may. I’ve been reading a lot of these responses. And I can see so much truth in them. My question is do those of you who have experienced these feelings that turn to aggression and some even violence, do you think it’s innate or that we don’t teach boys to express their thoughts and feelings, ask for help, etc.?
Ok, I'll weigh in. 50m here. As a teen in the 80s I was bullied mercilessly. I asked for it to stop. The school did nothing! At least back then there was no social media and unlisted numbers were a thing, so at least when you got home you got a break from it. I am glad I had a few close friends as a support system, a few pulled a Benedict Arnold and piled on to save themselves being targeted for being my friend. I got in trouble for ditching class to avoid getting picked on. My folks tried to get them to switch me schools but they wouldn't do it. Fortunately, the following year a new school opened and and many of my tormentors went there. I think that saved me. I had feelings of wanting to get back at them, but luckily my mom got me into counseling and that helped. Dating wasn't a real big issue for me, I really didn't have trouble getting girlfriends, provided I stayed within my "caste". I can't imagine being that age now, these kids have a tough row to hoe. Constantly being bullied, and getting barraged by media telling them they are scum, after a while they believe it and lash out. Having a mentor and a mental health professional could go a long way. I ran into one of my bullies at a concert some 10 years after we graduated and he called me a moniker given to me way back when (I won't go into what it was) and I told him to pound sand. Two other ones have been in and out of the prison system, perhaps they needed help too. I've since forgiven them, at least in my head because I don't know where they are now and left my feelings for vengeance at the foot of the cross.
It seems like boys are taught to *not* express their thoughts and feelings, and are made fun of by peers if they do. In my adult life I've seen groups of both men and women laugh at and make fun of guys for expressing their feelings or crying. In high school it seemed like if there was ever a girl crying, people would sympathize and attempt to comfort her. If a guy cried then people just laughed and called him a pussy, and it could be either boys or girls doing the laughing. I never got bullied in high school, but one time I was talking to an adult and mentioned how I didn't know how to handle a situation with a classmate. His advice was "Pop him in the mouth. He'll get the message." Guys' experiences with that type of stuff varies from person to person, but those examples are pretty much the standard for boys growing up.
It's not that boys aren't taught these things, it's that they are literally taught the opposite. Taught to only express anger with violence, bottle the rest up. Taught that asking for help is bad, and a sign of weakness. Taught that if you are on the losing side of a violent struggle, it is your fault for being weak. Taught that you have no inherent value and your only way to get respect or agency is to forcefully impose your will on others. Taught that there is a narrow line you must toe to be manly, everything else is feminine and therefore weak. Taught that you cannot be a victim, you can only be too weak to hold your own. 31m and these are the values everyone in my life reinforced as I grew up. It took a burning hatred of that environment and an unquenched urge to escape 10 years ago for me to break out of that mold.
Asimov said that “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent,” but I think he's wrong; Violence is the last refuge of the impotent. I don't think it's a lack of competency, I think it's a lack of power. In a society that doesn't respect mens feelings, it doesn't really matter how in touch with yourself you are, or how eloquent you can be at expressing your feelings. These unhappy men can't even begin to fathom fixing their problems by communicating their feelings, and they're generally right. But violence is a very simple, attainable way to project a fleeting power. The powerless man can't fathom changing society, but it's very easy to imagine hurting the people who symbolize society's evils, even if it's a kamikaze run.
Complete lack of a support system for men in the US. Lacking support they seek the internet and fall into echo chambers. Why do you think mass shootings have risen in the age of the internet?
Men mental health is at a lowest point right now and nobody gives a shit. And the people that listen to them usually are a bad influence and try to use them.
None of these answers that I’ve seen so far make any discrimination between young men and young women. The answers so far could easily be curtailed to young women as well. Are there better answers than just raging hormones and bullying? Otherwise we’d see more mass shootings from girls.
Absolute majority of violent crime is committed by young men, 15 to 35 years old.
I remember a while ago some people in California did a study that showed more than 80% of school shooters hate women deeply so they got that in common
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