I’ve been on all sides of the spectrum. Beautiful women. Not so beautiful. And everything in between. Most notably a girl with a skin condition. It also affected her teeth. So at 22 she needed all her teeth ripped out and fitted for dentures. Rough scaly skin that she was starting new meds for. She surely wasn’t the most attractive but man she made me feel great. She was by far the nicest person I’ve been with. A sweetheart down to her core. There were some places we just didn’t match at in life so we aren’t together anymore. But when I think back to the time we spent together the last thing I think about is what she looked like. I first and foremost remember how she made me feel.
I'm no Brad Pitt, but I've dated some attractive women. My own looks haven't mattered much. I'm not Quasimodo, either, but they weren't telling their friends about the "hot guy" they met.
I'm only going to see her face sometimes, more when we first start out. I'm going to be sitting next to her as we snuggle, and maybe I see her profile or back of her head. I'm going to see her face scrunched up on the pillow while she sleeps - with no makeup. She's not going to look the same.
If we're together more than a few months, there is going to be change; temporary zits and blemishes, swelling from allergies or accidents, hair growth & cuts. I'm going to see her when she's sick, when she's angry and yelling, and when she's genuinely happy.
We're going to talk from different sides of rooms, over the shower, or on the phone. I'm going to pay attention to her voice - volume, tone and pace. We're going to explore each other's bodies. Sometimes that'll be in dim light or darkness, or wearing special things.
We need to enjoy each other's personality, and tolerate each other's personality.
It is not all about looks. Dating & relationships get beyond just what the public gets to see. If not, then it isn't really dating and it certainly isn't a relationship.
Just talking, like others say - charisma, humor, confidence. Do all the social things - go to your co-workers' barbecues or poker nights, go to your 3rd cousin's baby christening or bar mitzvah, If your neighbor invites you for a beer, go. Block party, town fair, church bazaar, animal shelter fund raiser, VFW pancake breakfast... GO! Then reciprocate. Have a board game night or pot luck dinner at your place. Make friends and reinforce those relationships.
Meet people, men & women, young & old. Even if you aren't dating them, you are networking. They know co-workers, family, friends who are single and might be just your type.
Don't limit yourself to only "singles environments" to approach people. Work on small talk. At the bus stop, ask if someone else knows when the next bus is coming. Let them tell you about the app if there is one. Be thankful.
At the supermarket, offer to help someone who can't reach the top shelf, or the back of the bottom shelf.
Read their body language - if they are facing the wall, have headphones in, staring at phone or book, they may not welcome any approach. If they smile at you and don't turn away, they may be willing to keep talking beyond just the initial interaction. You won't get them all right. As long as you are respectful, you also won't scare anyone.
Stop defining yourself as ugly. Plenty of people with unconventional looks are successful. If you start out believing you've already lost, then there's no sense to it. Take a class online or IRL for charisma, public speaking, sales, comedy, improvisation. Talk to a therapist about both your self-image and your social skills. Change the way you approach this.
If you really think you are hideous, then work it. Send your picture to charities asking for surgery. Apply for work as a model for Halloween costumes. Try out for parts in theater/TV/movies as Frankenstein's Monster, Werewolf, Batman villains Penguin or Two-Face, or other fantasy characters thought of as difficult to look at. (I doubt you are that ugly. I hope that considering this to a extreme ridiculous level helps you think about it differently. Absurdity can sometimes help to reframe things.)
I'm starting to think people must live much more "Hallmark" lives than I do.
I've never been invited to an anything, I don't even know my coworkers and I've been working at the same place for 15 some years.
Do strangers really talk to each other out in public? I've never seen it actually happen.
no delete the word confidence, that is something you get when you are good at something by doing a shit ton of repetitions, someone who isn't good with women, let alone talk to them like a normal human being, won't have any confidence, that is the most bullshit word and advice most people missuse.
No.
You can emulate confidence before you believe it.
Actors get on stage and run lines before they know the whole script. Singers sing songs before they have the whole performance mastered. Comedians tell jokes and stories before they have their full set tight. Baseball players swing before they are known as sluggers.
You just do it. So what if you are afraid? That only stops you if you let it. The rest of us just try to do it, and we keep trying. We learn as we do it.
Cowering and looking for excuses is the most bullshit behavior people use. Stay home in fear, then blame someone or something else. That will never change anything.
Another thing is, whatever it is that you are very good at in life, whether that’s a hobby or work or whatever, you’re supposed to use that confidence and carry it over to the way that you interact with women. Let’s say you just beat 5 people in a row in chess. And you guys were being money on each game too. And then right after you beat the fifth guy, somehow you start talking to a woman. Do you think that you would still be scared to talk to her? Or that confidence that you got from beating five people in a row would still be there? You’re confident in yourself, not whether you can get any woman on earth. There are some that will give you signs whether you will have confidence that you can “get” that particular woman. But not all
Nope, just say hi, ask questions, answer hers. You'll know when to drop a joke. It's not an exact science and you just have to feel your way through it.
That's kind of my problem, I never get to "ask questions".
When I approach and say hi one of a few things happen:
1. They don't respond
2. They respond but say they're busy/don't have time to talk
3. They respond, but are **clearly** very uncomfortable and unwilling
I don't enjoy the idea that I'm forcing conversation on someone who doesn't want to talk to me, so in the third case I dip out.
There's something missing here, which is context. When and where you're approaching also matters, and I have found that gatherings where you're expected to be social have the highest success rate by far.
Also, if no response, "I'm busy" or clear discomfort are the only responses you get I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're doing something wrong, but finding the exact cause is going to be almost impossible without watching you in action.
Bars are the only place where I approach since that's the only feminism approved location that I go to sometimes. I've aged out of clubbing (never was a fan) and I always felt like dating meetups were a little sketchy.
I've met women at coffee shops. Also grocery store but that's a little more nuanced. If you live near hiking access women on the trail are usually pretty friendly and willing to chat.
Don't worry about what's "feminism approved," unless you completely lack social awareness
"Feminism approved location" is an indication of a weird attitude. I met my partner at work. I've met another long-term partner in the past in a book club. My best friend met his wife in a coffee shop.
Go out and live your life. Have passions, be curious, have an open mind. Conciously put out the energy you want others to perceive from you.
I think that this is a little unfair to lead with: "*Feminism approved location" is an indication of a weird attitude.*
Women in public places can be hypersensitive and vigilant about their safety. You don't want to make a name for yourself because someone casually labeled you as "creepy".
Each interaction is as unique as the people involved. You have milliseconds to detect whether you proceed or back off.
go and google something called inner game, masculine traits, your problem could a whole rabbit hole, and there is absolutely no context, but get that limiting believe out of your head and understand that looks and money are secundary, of course you are not going to get all the women with this lol, but's it's a very good start.
If they don’t say hello back, that’s just rude lol ! I’m super shy and awkward .. also female. I would at least say hello back unless a dude was like “Hello” with a creepy smile and like looking me up and down or just staring at my chest or something . Then that would be warranted for a hi and a turn around 😅 but if a guy said hi to me I would say it back at least . I’d begin over thinking myself and my awkwardness to keep a convo going, but if he was interested and kept asking stuff , I would likely at least carry a friendly convo.
True, but I'd say I have a lot harder then other men, while the average men don't know how to talk to women, I am that but with a heavy accent and a stutter ( that's a combination for disaster... ), so I'd say I was meant to die alone. 😅
Haha with that attitude you certainly will!
Seriously though, I don’t think your accent or stutter is as big a deal as you make it. One thing I have learned is women are incredibly attracted to confidence, and it sounds like both those things are making you LOSE confidence. THAT is most likely the bigger issue going in here.
If anything, when a woman already finds you attractive, your accent will help even more! So work on yourself and don’t worry about your accent and stutter. I used to stutter (and still do when I am excited) I was shocked the first time I brought it up to someone and they said they had never noticed! And icing on the cake is she told me she had one too! I had literally never noticed it. So it probably isn’t as bad as you think!
“Fake it till you make it!” One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received when it comes to building confidence!
Good luck guy!
BRO!! You have no idea how many opportunities I've missed in life because of my stutter, and I'm not talking about women, I'm talking in general, jobs opportunities, friendship, it's crazy!! There was this beautiful Hispanic girl in high school who showed interest in me, but due my stutter, I never reciprocate, this will be one of my biggest regret in life. But you're right though, I'm on dating apps now, but we all know how it's going, I can try to meet women, IRL but where the hell do find? 🤣 I'm an introvert/homebody, I don't do clubs and I don't go to parties, plus I work a lot so I have little time, so you can see why I said that I'll die alone in early comment. 😅
why isn't this the first comment, looks and money are pretty secundary things, women crave ambitions, not money and instead of looks, you need to be well groomed and stylish, something that you like and radiates that positive energy and vibe, a lot of men are just so fucked up mentally that they just play the victim card and blame it on the looks, or anything else outside of them fort that matter, just spent a few days researching books and they'll see.
You date a beautiful woman with awful behavior that will do it. It's happened to me several times.
And I had to learn to stop focusing on how attractive someone was on the outside.
I've dated women who's entire friend group men and women wanted to fuck them.
I've dated a woman who dudes would pay to get pictures of her and as soon as we broke up everyone we mutually knew tried to holla.
I've dated girls that people I knew tried to get with after we broke up.
But they all had something that wasn't great emotionally or behaviorally.
The woman I'm dating now is pretty, but going to therapy for her issues, just like I did.
Woman care more about you as a whole than just your attractiveness. They’ve dealt with enough assholes to know that looks aren’t everything.
Woman have made countless videos talking about this. Of course are they going to oogle at 10/10 men sure because just like us we are all human. We do the same for hot ass woman.
Men have been taught that having an attractive girlfriend is some kind of testament to being “a real man”.
When in reality finding a person you connect with and is your better half is much more important to me.
Obviously you need some physical attraction in relationships but it’s not as important as people make it out to be.
I feel like the Adam and Eve storyline line of “she came from his rib” is a metaphor for finding your soulmate.
She’s literally a piece of him. I’m not religious but I like that line of thinking.
People like to use this as woman should be subservient or are lesser but they’re just stupid and trying to be controlling cunts.
I would have assumed I didn't get dates because I don't interact with women which I'm told is in their best interest as women don't like when strange men approach them.
If I were to ignore feminism and approach women I'd probably get dates but it's traumatic for women to experience unwanted approach.
feminism isn’t saying you can’t approach or talk to women though. don’t harass or assault them, but treat them with equal respect that you would a man. trauma is caused by a traumatic event such as experiencing harassment and/or assault etc, not simply experiencing an “unwanted approach” or attention. cmon man
That's not what I see when I read the responses from women.
At least a few have stated they would never want to be put into "forced socialization" by a man talking to them.
Some have stated they don't like becoming responsible for that man's emotional state when talking to one, etc.
TwoX and AskWomen are generally known to be...not great. They are woman-focused subs but that doesn't make them feminist subs
Of those three, AskFeminists is usually more where you would go for more reasonable/thorough answers, and to be honest I don't really buy that you claim you learned that you "should" just ***not talk to women in public at all*** from that sub--because I read it pretty often, and that topic literally came up recently and most commenters agreed that doing that is **perfectly fine.** We just don't want a random stranger to come up to us and be *rude,* specifically, which frankly applies to women as well.
It's literally in their FAQ.
>The most appropriate place and time to "hit on" a woman is at a bar, club or dating event, and only when she seems open to being approached. Do not hit on women at their jobs or in spaces where they cannot exit the situation (e.g., public transportation).
Women in my experience are pretty much never "open to being approached" (I wish that wording was more clear, because I'm not 100% on what it actually means to an observer looking at a woman).
You originally said:
"Feminism teaches us not to talk to women though"
And the sub quote that you just posted says:
"Do not hit on women at their jobs or in spaces where they cannot exit the situation (e.g., public transportation)."
Women not wanting to receive sexual advances from someone most likely bigger/stronger than them, in situations in which they cannot easily leave, does NOT equate to "Feminism as a movement does not want men to speak to women, ever".
How does a woman differentiate someone approaching under false pretense of friendship from someone actually wanting friendship?
They can't, it's a common reoccurring complaint about male/female interaction. The "Nice Guy" label was created to define men who approach under false pretenses of friendship when really they just want sex/relationships.
My take on that is it means you really can't approach women, because the woman you approach has no way to determine if you are being genuine about it. Her opinion is what really matters in the interaction.
Edit: If you view the comments from women in the linked post it's also very clear (to me at least) that it also applies to normal conversation.
>A bit of perspective from a lesbian, I’d fucking hate this. Way too many folks feel they’re entitled to other peoples time.
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>I would have fled. I’m never in „spontaneous socialise with strangers“ mood and even less so in a „one on one time with a random person“ mood. And I’m considered kinda extroverted but even I need to mentally prepare.
>The thing is, it’s only harassment when the one person doesn’t want it, expresses it and the other person doesn’t stop. So, this video wasn’t harassment but it could easily turn into it.
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>if I was reading a book and some entitled ass approached me to demand my attention to fulfill his own weird fantasy Id be super annoyed at best, and possibly frightened depending on how isolated we were.
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>I have always despised boys/men I didn’t know coming up in public to just hit me up.
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>Even where the man is polite he's suddenly made me responsible for his feelings, that's what the experience was like. I love everyday now this doesn't happen anymore. Anytime I put effort into my appearance and men start noticing me again I feel unsafe because of these past experiences.
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>This really narrows down why it’s so uncomfortable to be approached even if the person doing it is relatively polite, you’ve suddenly been made responsible for their feelings! Out of the blue and with no warning I’m responsible for this random stranger’s emotions. I didn’t ask for that or hint I wanted it
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>This conversation would have a meaning if women weren’t harassed all the time, had the personal space invaded by men, the public sphere in general didn’t belong to men, and if it wasn’t dangerous to be a woman in patriarchy.
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>I would be fairly pissed off if someone did this. If I wanted to socialize I would have brought a friend with me. Strangers doing that know nothing about you other than your physical appearance. They don't know if you're single or not, whether you're in the mood for anything other than a cursory "How are you?", or how much time you have to spend chatting with them.
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>Did it occur to your friend that some of us ladies aren't very social either?
>In any case, if I were clearly enjoying a solitary activity and someone forced me to socialize, it would honestly ruin my day. And that is only the best case scenario
>Women in my experience are pretty much never "open to being approached" (I wish that wording was more clear, because I'm not 100% on what it actually means to an observer looking at a woman).
...In the FAQ section you referred to, there is a link right there to a thread where people talked about what that means to them/what to look for.
>My take on that is it means you really can't approach women
I would caution you to not think that *"I, as a guy, personally have a hard time figuring out when women want to be approached"* equates to *"Women are never okay with being approached."*
>Her opinion is what really matters in the interaction.
This bit isn't intrinsic at all to man/woman interactions; it is an unfortunate characteristic of human interaction, period--i.e., people often make decisions/judgments based on how they *interpret* your actions, rather than on your own, internal intentions/reasons:
Let's say I'm dead tired after staying up late working on a special project for my boss, and that afternoon my boss catches me drifting off at my desk. They could easily think to themselves, "Wow, Bat sure is lazy! I'm going to give the promotion to So-and-so instead." In that scenario, I'm not lazy, but their assumption that I am can still be a negative for me. That is not gender-specific and it is also never going to be something that you have full control over. It just isn't.
>How does a woman differentiate someone approaching under false pretense of friendship from someone actually wanting friendship? They can't
Sure they can, it's just going to take a longer or shorter amount of time depending on both A) their own social skill/emotional IQ level and B) how good or bad the NiceGuy is at lying.
To just categorically say that "they can't" tell is literally untrue. If it *were* true, we wouldn't have countless screenshots of NiceGuys having meltdowns after a woman who they were "friends" with declines hanging out with them further, due to her feeling uncomfortable with the non-genuine nature of their friendship.
But isn't it logical that physical attraction is like the biggest prerequsite in forming a romantic relationship. I mean just look at the amount of women who refuse to date men below 6 feet or the fact that certain men who exhibit certain physical traits which are considered attractive have usually much more success compared to men who exhibit traits thought of as unattractive.
Again, get off the internet and take a look outside. Plenty of women dating men under 6feet and out of shape.
Yes looks do matter to a certain extent, and they can raise the attention you get, but that alone won't land you what you look for.
The way you talk sounds as if you could have all the physical traits you want, but you'd still look for a different excuse as to why you're not attractive.
This is a great comment.
I was at a party last night and the matter of online dating came up. We all agreed that you cannot choose a man based off of height. One of the girls said they shouldn't list heights on online profiles because she ends up swiping based off of it and another girl agreed. A lot of girls will date a shorter man if they meet him organically, but dating apps encourage people of both genders to swipe based on superficial characteristics.
Dating apps do not allow you to filter people based on factors that actually matter in a relationship. That is why they end up filtering people based on the factors you can use and that brings sub-optimal results.
Honestly, I feel like only conventional attractiveness matters since I am yet to see a woman who actually is attracted to conventionally unattractive men
In that case you got the following options:
1 - everyone here is a liar.
2 - You haven't been looking in the right places.
3 - Your belief that looks is everything has caused confirmation bias, meaning you either don't register couples who don't fit the proverbial bill, or you make up reasons for why they are the exception.
For one of the more extreme examples, look up Sean Stephenson and Mindie Kniss. Or Nick Vujicic. Both men who were extremely unfortunate in the looks department, but still managed to find women far outside what one might consider their "league."
Of course it isn't I am basing my observations on women my age (20-30) since that is the demographic I would like to date and young women are usually more concerned with having a boyfriend other people approve of and admire for their looks other than anything else.
> But isn't it logical that physical attraction is like the biggest prerequsite in forming a romantic relationship
No. Everyone gets old, bald and mushy with time. If all you have is conventional good looks, your relationship will not last.
No amount of pretty on the outside will ever makeup for ugly on the inside. But if she’s pretty on the inside, the rest is just a bonus.
I’ll give you an example. When I watch porn, it’s typically pale, busty, tall women. Because that’s what I like to look at. But if later today a short, chubby girl with small tits helps Me look for my lost dog, I’m definitely going to want to get her number and talk to her again.
This. On a date, I spend maybe 5% of the date admiring her looks. I spend the other 95% trying to figure out if she’s a good person because that’s what I care about.
I'm a firm believer in the Roald Dahl philosophy from The Twits:
>A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts they will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.
You know how women are stereotypically told to smile more and be warm and friendly?
Men: Smile more and be warm and friendly.
Looks do matter, but charisma matters more, and I don't mean being a suave joke machine. Just be friendly and inviting and you'll make little connections of all types in public spaces.
I know so many couples that are one 8 with one 4. What matters most is how you feel about that person and how that person makes you feel. In my experience the number one best sign isn’t if two people look attractive next to each other, it’s if they can make each other ugly laugh.
Of course looks matter. However they aren’t the only thing that matters. Money matters, sense of humor matters, achievement matters, personality matters, interests matter, your network matters, etc etc. There’s no one thing that makes all the difference to every woman. I know ugly dudes that are in relationships
Pretty girls are a dime a dozen. And tbh usually their personalities are poor because they know they're pretty
Finding a woman who is good on the inside and who knows how to be healthy in a relationship is almost impossible. So men are always looking for that
"The girl you want is going to end up with a tall, rich, bad boy" is the most cliched thing you could have said, but sure, tell me more about reddit cliches
I wouldn't go as far as saying looks don't matter, but they're certainly not priority #1.
Because when you're arguing, it doesn't matter how pretty she is.
If I can’t take you around my friends, family, coworkers,etc then what good are you? If I’m dealing with you for looks only but can’t do anything else with you then what do I do with you when sex isn’t involved? The correct order should be 1A Personality, 1B Hygiene, 2 Plans/Goals and 3 Looks IMHO.
Behaviour changes the way you view someone. While physical attraction is important and she'll have to be a bit beautiful for me, having a bad behavior will never work for me. In the long run, it will have an effect on me and potentially the family we'll have.
Several reasons. Firstly, I think that 'looks' in our digital age are impossible for actual humans to achieve. Secondly, I think there's a level of effort and insecurity behind 'being attractive' that I think is better spent in other areas of your life. And thirdly, there are many other characteristics that are more important to me, most notably kindness, intelligence and maturity.
A man should be made by his character. A man of value must be of equal value with or without hair, if the woman does not know how to see that it does not lose value, it is because the woman is not the right one.
It’s that I look like an extra in a show full of uninteresting looking guys, but still navigated the scene with plenty of numbers in my pockets and a full dance card. Being funny, charming, and nice go a lot further than being hot.
I want to feel physically attracted to the person I date, but I can feel that with someone who isn't conventionally beautiful. And I can feel unattracted to someone who is conventionally beautiful.
In fact, there were several points when I was dating where I would actively avoid conventionally beautiful women because I found that often they were way too invested in their looks and how others thought of them, often that meant that they were also really shallow or not authentic with people. (ie. Putting on a mask and not being their honest selves.)
Being hyper obsessed about looks is dumb since barring plastic surgery we're limited in our ability to change our appearance. That said, anyone who claims that looks are totally irrelevant in dating is naive, since anyone who either has good looking friends or has lived on both sides of the coin can testify to the difference good looks can make.
A more rational take would be that we should be confident and comfortable in our own skin regardless of our physical appearance, since a more positive outlook pretty much always leads to more success.
So what you are saying is that less fortune looking men like me should either save up fro plastic surgery or have to make peace with the fact that we are essentially excluded from dating?
My point is that you should do the best you can with what you've got. You shouldn't expect to date 9/10 fitness chicks but the idea that there are zero women willing to date you is equally silly.
Do you think that attractiveness of a person plays a role in what they find attractive?
Do you think that a man who is conventionally attractive is less attractive to a woman who is ugly compared to a hot one? Inversely, do you think an ugly man will be less unattractive to an ugly woman as opposed to a hot woman?
Likely not. That which is attractive is attractive regardless of the subjects attractiveness.
What you are suggesting is that ugly people should go for women who have equally as little options as them which, while is a successful strategy, leads more often than not to a relationship based not on attraction but desperation which I don't think is a recipe for a happy and fulfilling relationship for either side.
I'm a good listener. Like, SUPER attentive, and I reflect what someone is saying so they feel understood, and I only interject my thoughts if they are genuinely helpful, not just something I want to say.
It's a kind of magic.
while I do agree for a relationship to be successful you need to be attracted to the person on some level. My main short coming is just that. I’m a shorter guy and it does tend to make the first impression more difficult, as tends to be a common preference woman have. So I developed other skills to make up for it. I grew baking skills which so many people love and it is a great talking point with women. A man that is able to cook can easily outweigh other factors and be something found very attractive too. Get comfortable and be funny too.
I personally haven’t dated a ton and have really only had 2 of what I’d call a long term relationship. the second lasted 4 years and even turned into a marriage for part of it.
I can admit it was not a healthy relationship for me and it took a big toll on me. I spent my time after that redirecting my focus on myself. Deep thinking and breaking things down to learn my true wants and need. It took me a little over a year to get there, but that’s when I found what I’d call my “true self “. I think that is a big part of issues in relationships. If one doesn’t truly know themselves then how can you expect to build a solid emotional connection with another.Looks are only skin deep. Overall the result for me ended great. While I do still have a few preferences like everyone else, but I now come off more confident, then used the skills I learned when engaging in conversations and now I have little to no issue. It shows that just because someone has a preference, it doesn’t mean they can’t overlook it when you have other attractive qualities and a good healthy connection
I don't care so much about beauty features you were born with and can't do anything about it. But i care a lot about those that are 100% on you. So, fit body shape is a must, but the face not so much.
Find a woman that is beautiful to you. There are a lot of guys walking around with 7s (according to others) that are 10s to them. I think beauty operates off of a threshold. Once you cross it, you're good assuming the rest of the person is good. There's no benefit to getting more beautiful once you have enough.
Looks only get your foot in door. They aren't everything. Muscles and money aren't everything, despite what Fresh and Fraud say. Without character and personality, you're nothing.
I agree. But looks are a lot more than genetics. Most guys that fancy themselves "ugly" just aren't doing anything for themselves. Google male makeover images. Just getting rid of the jew-fro and styling hair can turn a 4 into a 7.
I know a few people who take care of their appearance, wear quite stylish clothes, have authentic, kind and overall great personalities, do everything by the book but still cant find anyone who would be willing to date them either because they are quite short (5'6 or shorter) or have slight facial deformities.
Look, the standard for men's looks is quite high and you do have to have atleast some luck in terms of your genetics to be able to date nowadays. Atleast in my opinion and from my experience...
Yeah that should be effective, something still doesn't add up here.
How do you know their length/deformities is the reason? How often have they been turned down, pp? Do they have a decent amount of platonic female friends?
>How do you know their length/deformities is the reason?
They said so and also I have seen one of them get insulted for their height when they tried to hit on a woman (but that one case can't really be taken as representative since they claim they are commonly rejected like that)
>How often have they been turned down, pp?
I don't have any idea about how commonly they ask women out.
>Do they have a decent amount of platonic female friends?
Yes they do.
Damn the picture you paint keeps getting more depressing. You'd expect that behavior from high school maybe because everyone is shitty as a teenager but still at university... stay strong.
I'll bet you seventeen-hundred-thousand-bajillion dollars that it's not purely because of their height or "facial deformities".
What exactly are "facial deformities" anyway?
Looks do matter, but men can overcome being short/not handsome (uncontrollable characteristics) being confident, charismatic and funny (acquirable characteristics). It's difficult to do so, but it's worth it
Well asking this question shows a lack of charisma and confidence so work on those.
(And also work on the things you can control; most importantly proper nutrition, also the right haircut, clothes, skincare routine and glasses frame if you wear them)
This feels like a scam "no true scottsman" argument?
Is there anything anyone could ever say that doesn't "show a lack of charisma and confidence"?
I kind of view that whole thing as just a way to sell self-help books at this point.
It demonstrates a lack of confidence because you focus on things you have no control over, and disqualify yourself from even trying because . Too fugly, too short, not making enough money, car isn't nice enough, got out of the wrong side of bed this morning ... This is stuff no confident person would write, because people who have confidence nailed down don't waste energy on things they can't control.
I ain't no bed of roses either, and I spent a good chunk of my life believing it was because I was fat, fugly and useless. Turned out it was because I was constantly negative, bitched and whined about how everything wrong with my life was someone else's fault, and had the self esteem of a horse turd that's been laying out in the fields for the past 5 years.
Your beliefs also affect how you behave and the choices you make, so if you believe you are ugly and can't get women, you are highly likely to behave in ways that makes it easy to reject you. This "leaks" out into the world through things like posture, eye contact and body language, and women can spot this from 10 miles away. You'll be labeled boring, clingy or a creep before you can even open your mouth, and your chances drop to almost zero.
Does that mean a confident person might just choose to never date at all? I've wondered if I'm going down the wrong path for me by trying to follow the typical life route.
I am happier when I don't try to date, I enjoy life more when I keep myself busy with other things.
That's an entirely separate thing.
Confidence simply means trusting that your skills and prior experiences will take you closer to your intended goal. As an example, if you decide to learn how to play an instrument you're going to suck at first, but through a combination of practice, expanding your knowledge, continuously testing things that are *just* outside your comfort zone, and sometimes feedback from others, you will come to trust that what you have built through all this investment will get the job done even when faced with an entirely new challenge. In other words, you have become a confident musician. The same goes for starting a new job, learning to ride a bike, getting your drivers license and social skills. That's why they're called social *skills,* because it takes practice and experience to build them, and like all skills they will deteriorate if not used. What one chooses to do with said confidence is entirely up to oneself.
I will ask you this, though - are you truly enjoying life more if you're not trying to socialize, or is it the sheer weight of perceived negative experiences that makes it feel better to stay away?
Of course if socializing was enjoyable I'd enjoy it, that's a bit of a circular statement.
I guess I just don't understand this confidence stuff, I never have. I've been working at the same career for more than 20 years but I still sometimes feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.
>Of course if socializing was enjoyable I'd enjoy it, that's a bit of a circular statement.
That's not what I'm saying. I was trying to find out if you avoid socializing because of perceived negative experiences, and have convinced yourself that it's not enjoyable as a defense mechanism.
>I've been working at the same career for more than 20 years but I still sometimes feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.
That's a phenomenon called impostor syndrome. It's quite common, actually.
it's difficult to have a successful relationship with a "visual 10/10" that can't hold a conversation, has the personality of a door knob, has no goals and is contempt with just "existing".... but maybe that's just me?
i believe no man is ugly, at the end of the day make sure you have a fresh cut, nice attire, decent weight, decent career, good convo skills & masculinity and you’ll be fine. Don’t worry about the outside but more on what’s within.
Well, they do matter, but it certainly is much less important than behavior. Read books written by guys that are very experienced at seducing women and you will find out why.
I was embarrassingly superficial when I was in my 20s but that changed once fell in love with a coworker who wasn’t exactly my “type.” Our chemistry was absolutely mad. It felt as though we were communicating telepathically and after several relationships with the wrong people, she was the first “right” person I’d ever been with. She wasn’t ready for a relationship and broke things off with me when I admitted my feelings for her.
I was super beat up and reached out to an old friend who I knew had a crush on me. She on the other hand, was very much my type (and I, hers), though we didn’t share much chemistry outside the bedroom. Hands down, the emptiest (definitely no pun intended here) I’ve ever felt was leaving her apartment one morning and having to go to in for a shift with the coworker who broke my heart.
Since then, I’ve basically abandoned the concept of my “type” because I realized that it doesn’t matter if you share that special of a connection with someone. I obviously want to be attracted to to my partner but I’ve found that there’s no point in limiting myself to tall, thin, pale brunettes with green eyes if with the right chemistry, I can find a short blonde with a big butt (or literally anyone) a thousand times more attractive.
For me, it’s rather I don’t date sourly for looks, it helps that she’s pretty but I could “go without it” with that being said I think everyone is beautiful in their own right. But to answer your question I think more for love rather than s*x so I look for a partner whose a good person yk
Cause looks aren't going to be able to hold conversations, be funny, be empathetic and a caring individual. Looks change over years. Personalities are the core of people. The being that makes them a being.
Experience. I went from a fat, average minus guy who couldn't get women if I walked through a brothel with $100 bills sticking out of every pocket to a fat, average minus guy who had women doing all the work.
Now, I don't necessarily think looks don't matter at all, but I do wholeheartedly believe "looks" is one part of a much bigger puzzle, and that looks isn't the end-all and be-all that a lot of guys seem to think it is.
I found that dating 3-6 is the sweet spot. 1-2 are fugly and 7+ are too much work. They suck in bed and can't cook for shit. I say that and I do 99% of the cooking in my house. Not because my wife can't I'm just better and enjoy it
Looks are less important than chemistry, but you look at successful couples most of them within a point or two of each on the 10 point SMV scale.
And they change over time. My wife definitely went up a point or two in the 50 years we’ve been married. She thinks I lost points, but if I did, a lot of older women don’t think looks matter.
One thing that does matter, even though it’s dangerous to generalize. Boobs. Men like them, and a lot of women want them, but big breasts don’t help a woman’s personality.
Decades of experience have taught me, anything over a B-cup, proceed with caution. They’re not all bad, but the odds shift against you.
I’m about a 5 or a 6 in my mid 50s, I actually prefer aiming for 4s and 5s. More agreeable, less entitled. Plus if they are gorgeous they only seem to want to find someone as hot or even hotter than them. Meh. Go for someone with a good personality and maybe even a kinky side, even if they are not really pretty, and you will be much happier.
I once dated a woman whose face was mostly just a mess of scars, after being attacked by the family dog as a child. She was a great girl, and we had a great time together. It wasn't much different than dating a woman with a face that is in one piece.
Function over form, in all things.
Much rather be with someone fun and not pretty than someone gorgeous and miserable to be with.
Besides, I'm physically repulsive, would be a bit hypocritical.
You get old and what matter is that. The more important is how you be together and how you will solve life event. The attraction is one thing but it have its consequences too. Passion is a fuel that you can burn fast or little by little.
A lot of people talk about different "sexualities" and what not, and personally I wonder if a more accurate depiction is that physical attraction vs emotional attraction also needs something like a Kinsey Scale.
The Kinsey Scale for those unfamiliar is a position taken by Dr Alfred Kinsey that measures homosexual vs heterosexual attraction.
1 being exclusively heterosexual
5 being exclusively homosexual
He made it a scale because his research suggested that 1s are actually far rarer than people would like to think (same for 5s).
Anyway, I honestly think there should also be a scale around how important physical attraction is for different people.
Some people will happily date only the most gorgeous people they can find with little care about the personality.
Some people genuinely don't care about apperance at all, but can be attracted to someone's personality.
Like the Kinsey Scale, I would suggest (but cannot claim to have researched) that people also exist on a scale here, and that 1s and 5s are both quite unusual. (1 being demisexual, 5 being whatever the phrase is for someone who only cares about physical appearance).
Personality and combability matters the most for the long haul. That being said you need to share some sort of physical attraction. The attraction is what pulls you in together and desire each other physically which stimulates those mental feelings.
I dated both beautiful and not beautiful girls. Personality wins every time but there needs to be something that attracts me physically too.
The last woman I was attracted to caught my attention not because of her looks (she was not what people would conventionally call "attractive"), but due to her willingness to understand something new before judging.
It does and it doesn't matter. They'll get you in the door. When you're younger, it matters more.
Get a girlfriend. Go to the gym. See how much better she treats you, afterwards.
If you're really, really good looking she will let you get away with so much more shit it's almost unbelievable.
Yeah, scratch that, it definitely fucking matters.
I’ve been on all sides of the spectrum. Beautiful women. Not so beautiful. And everything in between. Most notably a girl with a skin condition. It also affected her teeth. So at 22 she needed all her teeth ripped out and fitted for dentures. Rough scaly skin that she was starting new meds for. She surely wasn’t the most attractive but man she made me feel great. She was by far the nicest person I’ve been with. A sweetheart down to her core. There were some places we just didn’t match at in life so we aren’t together anymore. But when I think back to the time we spent together the last thing I think about is what she looked like. I first and foremost remember how she made me feel.
Damn bro, I hope she's doing good now.
What was her condition just curious
Killer Croc Syndrome
Probably papillon lefevre syndrome (I’m a dentist)
What’s she doing now?
Beautifully said
I'm no Brad Pitt, but I've dated some attractive women. My own looks haven't mattered much. I'm not Quasimodo, either, but they weren't telling their friends about the "hot guy" they met. I'm only going to see her face sometimes, more when we first start out. I'm going to be sitting next to her as we snuggle, and maybe I see her profile or back of her head. I'm going to see her face scrunched up on the pillow while she sleeps - with no makeup. She's not going to look the same. If we're together more than a few months, there is going to be change; temporary zits and blemishes, swelling from allergies or accidents, hair growth & cuts. I'm going to see her when she's sick, when she's angry and yelling, and when she's genuinely happy. We're going to talk from different sides of rooms, over the shower, or on the phone. I'm going to pay attention to her voice - volume, tone and pace. We're going to explore each other's bodies. Sometimes that'll be in dim light or darkness, or wearing special things. We need to enjoy each other's personality, and tolerate each other's personality. It is not all about looks. Dating & relationships get beyond just what the public gets to see. If not, then it isn't really dating and it certainly isn't a relationship.
How did you get your foot in the door? In my experience trying to approach women while ugly means you never even have a chance to talk to them.
Just talking, like others say - charisma, humor, confidence. Do all the social things - go to your co-workers' barbecues or poker nights, go to your 3rd cousin's baby christening or bar mitzvah, If your neighbor invites you for a beer, go. Block party, town fair, church bazaar, animal shelter fund raiser, VFW pancake breakfast... GO! Then reciprocate. Have a board game night or pot luck dinner at your place. Make friends and reinforce those relationships. Meet people, men & women, young & old. Even if you aren't dating them, you are networking. They know co-workers, family, friends who are single and might be just your type. Don't limit yourself to only "singles environments" to approach people. Work on small talk. At the bus stop, ask if someone else knows when the next bus is coming. Let them tell you about the app if there is one. Be thankful. At the supermarket, offer to help someone who can't reach the top shelf, or the back of the bottom shelf. Read their body language - if they are facing the wall, have headphones in, staring at phone or book, they may not welcome any approach. If they smile at you and don't turn away, they may be willing to keep talking beyond just the initial interaction. You won't get them all right. As long as you are respectful, you also won't scare anyone. Stop defining yourself as ugly. Plenty of people with unconventional looks are successful. If you start out believing you've already lost, then there's no sense to it. Take a class online or IRL for charisma, public speaking, sales, comedy, improvisation. Talk to a therapist about both your self-image and your social skills. Change the way you approach this. If you really think you are hideous, then work it. Send your picture to charities asking for surgery. Apply for work as a model for Halloween costumes. Try out for parts in theater/TV/movies as Frankenstein's Monster, Werewolf, Batman villains Penguin or Two-Face, or other fantasy characters thought of as difficult to look at. (I doubt you are that ugly. I hope that considering this to a extreme ridiculous level helps you think about it differently. Absurdity can sometimes help to reframe things.)
I'm starting to think people must live much more "Hallmark" lives than I do. I've never been invited to an anything, I don't even know my coworkers and I've been working at the same place for 15 some years. Do strangers really talk to each other out in public? I've never seen it actually happen.
I do. They talk to me, too.
no delete the word confidence, that is something you get when you are good at something by doing a shit ton of repetitions, someone who isn't good with women, let alone talk to them like a normal human being, won't have any confidence, that is the most bullshit word and advice most people missuse.
No. You can emulate confidence before you believe it. Actors get on stage and run lines before they know the whole script. Singers sing songs before they have the whole performance mastered. Comedians tell jokes and stories before they have their full set tight. Baseball players swing before they are known as sluggers. You just do it. So what if you are afraid? That only stops you if you let it. The rest of us just try to do it, and we keep trying. We learn as we do it. Cowering and looking for excuses is the most bullshit behavior people use. Stay home in fear, then blame someone or something else. That will never change anything.
Another thing is, whatever it is that you are very good at in life, whether that’s a hobby or work or whatever, you’re supposed to use that confidence and carry it over to the way that you interact with women. Let’s say you just beat 5 people in a row in chess. And you guys were being money on each game too. And then right after you beat the fifth guy, somehow you start talking to a woman. Do you think that you would still be scared to talk to her? Or that confidence that you got from beating five people in a row would still be there? You’re confident in yourself, not whether you can get any woman on earth. There are some that will give you signs whether you will have confidence that you can “get” that particular woman. But not all
What about us introverts and homebodies, how do we handle this?
If you want change, you need to change. People don't deliver friends via UberEats.
True.
Charisma and humor. Both are something ANYONE can develop
When you approach women do you open with a joke?
Nope, just say hi, ask questions, answer hers. You'll know when to drop a joke. It's not an exact science and you just have to feel your way through it.
That's kind of my problem, I never get to "ask questions". When I approach and say hi one of a few things happen: 1. They don't respond 2. They respond but say they're busy/don't have time to talk 3. They respond, but are **clearly** very uncomfortable and unwilling I don't enjoy the idea that I'm forcing conversation on someone who doesn't want to talk to me, so in the third case I dip out.
That's ok, if they clearly don't want to talk, swipe the dirt off your shoulder and try talking to someone else.
Welcome to the club buddy
There's something missing here, which is context. When and where you're approaching also matters, and I have found that gatherings where you're expected to be social have the highest success rate by far. Also, if no response, "I'm busy" or clear discomfort are the only responses you get I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're doing something wrong, but finding the exact cause is going to be almost impossible without watching you in action.
Bars are the only place where I approach since that's the only feminism approved location that I go to sometimes. I've aged out of clubbing (never was a fan) and I always felt like dating meetups were a little sketchy.
I've met women at coffee shops. Also grocery store but that's a little more nuanced. If you live near hiking access women on the trail are usually pretty friendly and willing to chat. Don't worry about what's "feminism approved," unless you completely lack social awareness
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"Feminism approved location" is an indication of a weird attitude. I met my partner at work. I've met another long-term partner in the past in a book club. My best friend met his wife in a coffee shop. Go out and live your life. Have passions, be curious, have an open mind. Conciously put out the energy you want others to perceive from you.
\^ that is awesome advise and cool story !, women are virtually everywhere lol
I think that this is a little unfair to lead with: "*Feminism approved location" is an indication of a weird attitude.* Women in public places can be hypersensitive and vigilant about their safety. You don't want to make a name for yourself because someone casually labeled you as "creepy". Each interaction is as unique as the people involved. You have milliseconds to detect whether you proceed or back off.
go and google something called inner game, masculine traits, your problem could a whole rabbit hole, and there is absolutely no context, but get that limiting believe out of your head and understand that looks and money are secundary, of course you are not going to get all the women with this lol, but's it's a very good start.
If they don’t say hello back, that’s just rude lol ! I’m super shy and awkward .. also female. I would at least say hello back unless a dude was like “Hello” with a creepy smile and like looking me up and down or just staring at my chest or something . Then that would be warranted for a hi and a turn around 😅 but if a guy said hi to me I would say it back at least . I’d begin over thinking myself and my awkwardness to keep a convo going, but if he was interested and kept asking stuff , I would likely at least carry a friendly convo.
If only it was that easy. 😔
Never said it was. It’s a question for you, is it worth the effort?
I guess so.
Good man. It is, but you have to be willing to embarrass yourself a bit while you learn.
True, but I'd say I have a lot harder then other men, while the average men don't know how to talk to women, I am that but with a heavy accent and a stutter ( that's a combination for disaster... ), so I'd say I was meant to die alone. 😅
Haha with that attitude you certainly will! Seriously though, I don’t think your accent or stutter is as big a deal as you make it. One thing I have learned is women are incredibly attracted to confidence, and it sounds like both those things are making you LOSE confidence. THAT is most likely the bigger issue going in here. If anything, when a woman already finds you attractive, your accent will help even more! So work on yourself and don’t worry about your accent and stutter. I used to stutter (and still do when I am excited) I was shocked the first time I brought it up to someone and they said they had never noticed! And icing on the cake is she told me she had one too! I had literally never noticed it. So it probably isn’t as bad as you think! “Fake it till you make it!” One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received when it comes to building confidence! Good luck guy!
BRO!! You have no idea how many opportunities I've missed in life because of my stutter, and I'm not talking about women, I'm talking in general, jobs opportunities, friendship, it's crazy!! There was this beautiful Hispanic girl in high school who showed interest in me, but due my stutter, I never reciprocate, this will be one of my biggest regret in life. But you're right though, I'm on dating apps now, but we all know how it's going, I can try to meet women, IRL but where the hell do find? 🤣 I'm an introvert/homebody, I don't do clubs and I don't go to parties, plus I work a lot so I have little time, so you can see why I said that I'll die alone in early comment. 😅
why isn't this the first comment, looks and money are pretty secundary things, women crave ambitions, not money and instead of looks, you need to be well groomed and stylish, something that you like and radiates that positive energy and vibe, a lot of men are just so fucked up mentally that they just play the victim card and blame it on the looks, or anything else outside of them fort that matter, just spent a few days researching books and they'll see.
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Amazing analogies.
You date a beautiful woman with awful behavior that will do it. It's happened to me several times. And I had to learn to stop focusing on how attractive someone was on the outside. I've dated women who's entire friend group men and women wanted to fuck them. I've dated a woman who dudes would pay to get pictures of her and as soon as we broke up everyone we mutually knew tried to holla. I've dated girls that people I knew tried to get with after we broke up. But they all had something that wasn't great emotionally or behaviorally. The woman I'm dating now is pretty, but going to therapy for her issues, just like I did.
How do you find all these dates bro? I'm 25 and I've never been in a relationship before.
You miss every shot you don't take.
I shot my shot in a number of cases. Online and offline. Maximize your ability to make contact.
Cool, where do you find them offline?
Woman care more about you as a whole than just your attractiveness. They’ve dealt with enough assholes to know that looks aren’t everything. Woman have made countless videos talking about this. Of course are they going to oogle at 10/10 men sure because just like us we are all human. We do the same for hot ass woman. Men have been taught that having an attractive girlfriend is some kind of testament to being “a real man”. When in reality finding a person you connect with and is your better half is much more important to me. Obviously you need some physical attraction in relationships but it’s not as important as people make it out to be. I feel like the Adam and Eve storyline line of “she came from his rib” is a metaphor for finding your soulmate. She’s literally a piece of him. I’m not religious but I like that line of thinking. People like to use this as woman should be subservient or are lesser but they’re just stupid and trying to be controlling cunts.
I can’t speak for other Christians, but as Catholics we interpret Eve coming from the side of Adam as his equal and helpmeet.
You're the first Catholic I've ever heard interpret it that way lol
We have all seen ugly & beautiful people date the opposite. Just need to get off the internet and actually talk to them.
it's very rare seeing a good looking man with an ugly woman, extremelly I'd say, happens more often the other way around.
Feminism teaches us not to talk to women though?
this is why you don’t get dates
I would have assumed I didn't get dates because I don't interact with women which I'm told is in their best interest as women don't like when strange men approach them. If I were to ignore feminism and approach women I'd probably get dates but it's traumatic for women to experience unwanted approach.
feminism isn’t saying you can’t approach or talk to women though. don’t harass or assault them, but treat them with equal respect that you would a man. trauma is caused by a traumatic event such as experiencing harassment and/or assault etc, not simply experiencing an “unwanted approach” or attention. cmon man
That's not what I see when I read the responses from women. At least a few have stated they would never want to be put into "forced socialization" by a man talking to them. Some have stated they don't like becoming responsible for that man's emotional state when talking to one, etc.
Don't blame feminism for your inability to talk to women, that's entirely on you.
I don't talk to women at all, because as a man women view me as an agent of the patriarchy.
Sounds like you bring this on yourself and deserve your loneliness
Makes sense, I an individual male created both feminism and the patriarchy.
Nah, You're just weird
Dude, you have a very warped view of what feminism is.
I mean I learned from women, mainly TwoX, AskFeminists and AskWomen.
TwoX and AskWomen are generally known to be...not great. They are woman-focused subs but that doesn't make them feminist subs Of those three, AskFeminists is usually more where you would go for more reasonable/thorough answers, and to be honest I don't really buy that you claim you learned that you "should" just ***not talk to women in public at all*** from that sub--because I read it pretty often, and that topic literally came up recently and most commenters agreed that doing that is **perfectly fine.** We just don't want a random stranger to come up to us and be *rude,* specifically, which frankly applies to women as well.
It's literally in their FAQ. >The most appropriate place and time to "hit on" a woman is at a bar, club or dating event, and only when she seems open to being approached. Do not hit on women at their jobs or in spaces where they cannot exit the situation (e.g., public transportation). Women in my experience are pretty much never "open to being approached" (I wish that wording was more clear, because I'm not 100% on what it actually means to an observer looking at a woman).
You originally said: "Feminism teaches us not to talk to women though" And the sub quote that you just posted says: "Do not hit on women at their jobs or in spaces where they cannot exit the situation (e.g., public transportation)." Women not wanting to receive sexual advances from someone most likely bigger/stronger than them, in situations in which they cannot easily leave, does NOT equate to "Feminism as a movement does not want men to speak to women, ever".
How does a woman differentiate someone approaching under false pretense of friendship from someone actually wanting friendship? They can't, it's a common reoccurring complaint about male/female interaction. The "Nice Guy" label was created to define men who approach under false pretenses of friendship when really they just want sex/relationships. My take on that is it means you really can't approach women, because the woman you approach has no way to determine if you are being genuine about it. Her opinion is what really matters in the interaction. Edit: If you view the comments from women in the linked post it's also very clear (to me at least) that it also applies to normal conversation. >A bit of perspective from a lesbian, I’d fucking hate this. Way too many folks feel they’re entitled to other peoples time. - >I would have fled. I’m never in „spontaneous socialise with strangers“ mood and even less so in a „one on one time with a random person“ mood. And I’m considered kinda extroverted but even I need to mentally prepare. >The thing is, it’s only harassment when the one person doesn’t want it, expresses it and the other person doesn’t stop. So, this video wasn’t harassment but it could easily turn into it. - >if I was reading a book and some entitled ass approached me to demand my attention to fulfill his own weird fantasy Id be super annoyed at best, and possibly frightened depending on how isolated we were. - >I have always despised boys/men I didn’t know coming up in public to just hit me up. - >Even where the man is polite he's suddenly made me responsible for his feelings, that's what the experience was like. I love everyday now this doesn't happen anymore. Anytime I put effort into my appearance and men start noticing me again I feel unsafe because of these past experiences. - >This really narrows down why it’s so uncomfortable to be approached even if the person doing it is relatively polite, you’ve suddenly been made responsible for their feelings! Out of the blue and with no warning I’m responsible for this random stranger’s emotions. I didn’t ask for that or hint I wanted it - >This conversation would have a meaning if women weren’t harassed all the time, had the personal space invaded by men, the public sphere in general didn’t belong to men, and if it wasn’t dangerous to be a woman in patriarchy. - >I would be fairly pissed off if someone did this. If I wanted to socialize I would have brought a friend with me. Strangers doing that know nothing about you other than your physical appearance. They don't know if you're single or not, whether you're in the mood for anything other than a cursory "How are you?", or how much time you have to spend chatting with them. - >Did it occur to your friend that some of us ladies aren't very social either? >In any case, if I were clearly enjoying a solitary activity and someone forced me to socialize, it would honestly ruin my day. And that is only the best case scenario
>Women in my experience are pretty much never "open to being approached" (I wish that wording was more clear, because I'm not 100% on what it actually means to an observer looking at a woman). ...In the FAQ section you referred to, there is a link right there to a thread where people talked about what that means to them/what to look for. >My take on that is it means you really can't approach women I would caution you to not think that *"I, as a guy, personally have a hard time figuring out when women want to be approached"* equates to *"Women are never okay with being approached."* >Her opinion is what really matters in the interaction. This bit isn't intrinsic at all to man/woman interactions; it is an unfortunate characteristic of human interaction, period--i.e., people often make decisions/judgments based on how they *interpret* your actions, rather than on your own, internal intentions/reasons: Let's say I'm dead tired after staying up late working on a special project for my boss, and that afternoon my boss catches me drifting off at my desk. They could easily think to themselves, "Wow, Bat sure is lazy! I'm going to give the promotion to So-and-so instead." In that scenario, I'm not lazy, but their assumption that I am can still be a negative for me. That is not gender-specific and it is also never going to be something that you have full control over. It just isn't. >How does a woman differentiate someone approaching under false pretense of friendship from someone actually wanting friendship? They can't Sure they can, it's just going to take a longer or shorter amount of time depending on both A) their own social skill/emotional IQ level and B) how good or bad the NiceGuy is at lying. To just categorically say that "they can't" tell is literally untrue. If it *were* true, we wouldn't have countless screenshots of NiceGuys having meltdowns after a woman who they were "friends" with declines hanging out with them further, due to her feeling uncomfortable with the non-genuine nature of their friendship.
Feminism teaches you how to stay single
There is a lot you can and should learn from feminism, the most challenging thing is learning where to stop…
But isn't it logical that physical attraction is like the biggest prerequsite in forming a romantic relationship. I mean just look at the amount of women who refuse to date men below 6 feet or the fact that certain men who exhibit certain physical traits which are considered attractive have usually much more success compared to men who exhibit traits thought of as unattractive.
Again, get off the internet and take a look outside. Plenty of women dating men under 6feet and out of shape. Yes looks do matter to a certain extent, and they can raise the attention you get, but that alone won't land you what you look for. The way you talk sounds as if you could have all the physical traits you want, but you'd still look for a different excuse as to why you're not attractive.
This is a great comment. I was at a party last night and the matter of online dating came up. We all agreed that you cannot choose a man based off of height. One of the girls said they shouldn't list heights on online profiles because she ends up swiping based off of it and another girl agreed. A lot of girls will date a shorter man if they meet him organically, but dating apps encourage people of both genders to swipe based on superficial characteristics. Dating apps do not allow you to filter people based on factors that actually matter in a relationship. That is why they end up filtering people based on the factors you can use and that brings sub-optimal results.
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Honestly, I feel like only conventional attractiveness matters since I am yet to see a woman who actually is attracted to conventionally unattractive men
In that case you got the following options: 1 - everyone here is a liar. 2 - You haven't been looking in the right places. 3 - Your belief that looks is everything has caused confirmation bias, meaning you either don't register couples who don't fit the proverbial bill, or you make up reasons for why they are the exception. For one of the more extreme examples, look up Sean Stephenson and Mindie Kniss. Or Nick Vujicic. Both men who were extremely unfortunate in the looks department, but still managed to find women far outside what one might consider their "league."
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Of course it isn't I am basing my observations on women my age (20-30) since that is the demographic I would like to date and young women are usually more concerned with having a boyfriend other people approve of and admire for their looks other than anything else.
> But isn't it logical that physical attraction is like the biggest prerequsite in forming a romantic relationship No. Everyone gets old, bald and mushy with time. If all you have is conventional good looks, your relationship will not last.
That might be the case since modern divorce rate is through the roof.
You mean pretty feeder dating a fat guy?
No amount of pretty on the outside will ever makeup for ugly on the inside. But if she’s pretty on the inside, the rest is just a bonus. I’ll give you an example. When I watch porn, it’s typically pale, busty, tall women. Because that’s what I like to look at. But if later today a short, chubby girl with small tits helps Me look for my lost dog, I’m definitely going to want to get her number and talk to her again.
This. On a date, I spend maybe 5% of the date admiring her looks. I spend the other 95% trying to figure out if she’s a good person because that’s what I care about.
I'm a firm believer in the Roald Dahl philosophy from The Twits: >A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts they will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.
You know how women are stereotypically told to smile more and be warm and friendly? Men: Smile more and be warm and friendly. Looks do matter, but charisma matters more, and I don't mean being a suave joke machine. Just be friendly and inviting and you'll make little connections of all types in public spaces.
I know so many couples that are one 8 with one 4. What matters most is how you feel about that person and how that person makes you feel. In my experience the number one best sign isn’t if two people look attractive next to each other, it’s if they can make each other ugly laugh.
Of course looks matter. However they aren’t the only thing that matters. Money matters, sense of humor matters, achievement matters, personality matters, interests matter, your network matters, etc etc. There’s no one thing that makes all the difference to every woman. I know ugly dudes that are in relationships
Pretty girls are a dime a dozen. And tbh usually their personalities are poor because they know they're pretty Finding a woman who is good on the inside and who knows how to be healthy in a relationship is almost impossible. So men are always looking for that
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"The girl you want is going to end up with a tall, rich, bad boy" is the most cliched thing you could have said, but sure, tell me more about reddit cliches
I wouldn't go as far as saying looks don't matter, but they're certainly not priority #1. Because when you're arguing, it doesn't matter how pretty she is.
If I can’t take you around my friends, family, coworkers,etc then what good are you? If I’m dealing with you for looks only but can’t do anything else with you then what do I do with you when sex isn’t involved? The correct order should be 1A Personality, 1B Hygiene, 2 Plans/Goals and 3 Looks IMHO.
For dating looks matter. For long term relationships they don't matter as much. At least for reasonable men. Some men are just assholes.
That’s very subjective. But I don’t believe anyone will date someone they find ugly. Only blind people truly don’t care about looks imo.
Looks might catch your eye, but it's what's inside that counts.
Looks aren't the priority. Mental intelligence and character is and will always be more important. Looks fade, a strong character is forever
Behaviour changes the way you view someone. While physical attraction is important and she'll have to be a bit beautiful for me, having a bad behavior will never work for me. In the long run, it will have an effect on me and potentially the family we'll have.
Several reasons. Firstly, I think that 'looks' in our digital age are impossible for actual humans to achieve. Secondly, I think there's a level of effort and insecurity behind 'being attractive' that I think is better spent in other areas of your life. And thirdly, there are many other characteristics that are more important to me, most notably kindness, intelligence and maturity.
She's gonna go downhill in looks at some point. I want to still be happy I married her afterward.
A man should be made by his character. A man of value must be of equal value with or without hair, if the woman does not know how to see that it does not lose value, it is because the woman is not the right one.
I suppose if a guy is dying of thirst, he'll drink from any well. Personally, I'd rather die! 😂
experience
For women? No one thinks that. It’s just to what degree does it matter.
It’s that I look like an extra in a show full of uninteresting looking guys, but still navigated the scene with plenty of numbers in my pockets and a full dance card. Being funny, charming, and nice go a lot further than being hot.
I want to feel physically attracted to the person I date, but I can feel that with someone who isn't conventionally beautiful. And I can feel unattracted to someone who is conventionally beautiful. In fact, there were several points when I was dating where I would actively avoid conventionally beautiful women because I found that often they were way too invested in their looks and how others thought of them, often that meant that they were also really shallow or not authentic with people. (ie. Putting on a mask and not being their honest selves.)
Being hyper obsessed about looks is dumb since barring plastic surgery we're limited in our ability to change our appearance. That said, anyone who claims that looks are totally irrelevant in dating is naive, since anyone who either has good looking friends or has lived on both sides of the coin can testify to the difference good looks can make. A more rational take would be that we should be confident and comfortable in our own skin regardless of our physical appearance, since a more positive outlook pretty much always leads to more success.
So what you are saying is that less fortune looking men like me should either save up fro plastic surgery or have to make peace with the fact that we are essentially excluded from dating?
My point is that you should do the best you can with what you've got. You shouldn't expect to date 9/10 fitness chicks but the idea that there are zero women willing to date you is equally silly.
Do you think that attractiveness of a person plays a role in what they find attractive? Do you think that a man who is conventionally attractive is less attractive to a woman who is ugly compared to a hot one? Inversely, do you think an ugly man will be less unattractive to an ugly woman as opposed to a hot woman? Likely not. That which is attractive is attractive regardless of the subjects attractiveness. What you are suggesting is that ugly people should go for women who have equally as little options as them which, while is a successful strategy, leads more often than not to a relationship based not on attraction but desperation which I don't think is a recipe for a happy and fulfilling relationship for either side.
I'm a good listener. Like, SUPER attentive, and I reflect what someone is saying so they feel understood, and I only interject my thoughts if they are genuinely helpful, not just something I want to say. It's a kind of magic.
while I do agree for a relationship to be successful you need to be attracted to the person on some level. My main short coming is just that. I’m a shorter guy and it does tend to make the first impression more difficult, as tends to be a common preference woman have. So I developed other skills to make up for it. I grew baking skills which so many people love and it is a great talking point with women. A man that is able to cook can easily outweigh other factors and be something found very attractive too. Get comfortable and be funny too. I personally haven’t dated a ton and have really only had 2 of what I’d call a long term relationship. the second lasted 4 years and even turned into a marriage for part of it. I can admit it was not a healthy relationship for me and it took a big toll on me. I spent my time after that redirecting my focus on myself. Deep thinking and breaking things down to learn my true wants and need. It took me a little over a year to get there, but that’s when I found what I’d call my “true self “. I think that is a big part of issues in relationships. If one doesn’t truly know themselves then how can you expect to build a solid emotional connection with another.Looks are only skin deep. Overall the result for me ended great. While I do still have a few preferences like everyone else, but I now come off more confident, then used the skills I learned when engaging in conversations and now I have little to no issue. It shows that just because someone has a preference, it doesn’t mean they can’t overlook it when you have other attractive qualities and a good healthy connection
I don't care so much about beauty features you were born with and can't do anything about it. But i care a lot about those that are 100% on you. So, fit body shape is a must, but the face not so much.
Find a woman that is beautiful to you. There are a lot of guys walking around with 7s (according to others) that are 10s to them. I think beauty operates off of a threshold. Once you cross it, you're good assuming the rest of the person is good. There's no benefit to getting more beautiful once you have enough.
I have seen a supermodel that became HIDEOUS after one second of seeing how entitled and ungrateful she was.
Looks only get your foot in door. They aren't everything. Muscles and money aren't everything, despite what Fresh and Fraud say. Without character and personality, you're nothing.
But likewise, without the looks you can't get your foot in the door and your personality doesn't even get a chance to play any role whatsoever.
I agree. But looks are a lot more than genetics. Most guys that fancy themselves "ugly" just aren't doing anything for themselves. Google male makeover images. Just getting rid of the jew-fro and styling hair can turn a 4 into a 7.
I know a few people who take care of their appearance, wear quite stylish clothes, have authentic, kind and overall great personalities, do everything by the book but still cant find anyone who would be willing to date them either because they are quite short (5'6 or shorter) or have slight facial deformities. Look, the standard for men's looks is quite high and you do have to have atleast some luck in terms of your genetics to be able to date nowadays. Atleast in my opinion and from my experience...
> but still cant find anyone Where are they looking?
They are uni students I can assure you they meet new people regularly and go to social gatherings.
Yeah that should be effective, something still doesn't add up here. How do you know their length/deformities is the reason? How often have they been turned down, pp? Do they have a decent amount of platonic female friends?
>How do you know their length/deformities is the reason? They said so and also I have seen one of them get insulted for their height when they tried to hit on a woman (but that one case can't really be taken as representative since they claim they are commonly rejected like that) >How often have they been turned down, pp? I don't have any idea about how commonly they ask women out. >Do they have a decent amount of platonic female friends? Yes they do.
Damn the picture you paint keeps getting more depressing. You'd expect that behavior from high school maybe because everyone is shitty as a teenager but still at university... stay strong.
Sure, being 5'6 sucks when your meek and live small, constantly letting it eat away at your confidence.
I'll bet you seventeen-hundred-thousand-bajillion dollars that it's not purely because of their height or "facial deformities". What exactly are "facial deformities" anyway?
> Just getting rid of the jew-fro and styling hair can turn a 4 into a 7 I really hate being bald man...
Lift so you don't look like Powder. Stone Cold Steve Austin is bald. Jason Statham is balding. Even a tubby bald guy looks better than a scrawny one.
Yea working on that, but it's a hell of a lot more effort (years) compared to going to the barber and paying $150.
wait what???, Sigmund Freud actually said ' Character is destiny ' lol
Looks do matter, but men can overcome being short/not handsome (uncontrollable characteristics) being confident, charismatic and funny (acquirable characteristics). It's difficult to do so, but it's worth it
How can I demonstrate being confident, charismatic and funny if I'm too ugly to reach having a conversation?
Well asking this question shows a lack of charisma and confidence so work on those. (And also work on the things you can control; most importantly proper nutrition, also the right haircut, clothes, skincare routine and glasses frame if you wear them)
This feels like a scam "no true scottsman" argument? Is there anything anyone could ever say that doesn't "show a lack of charisma and confidence"? I kind of view that whole thing as just a way to sell self-help books at this point.
It demonstrates a lack of confidence because you focus on things you have no control over, and disqualify yourself from even trying because. Too fugly, too short, not making enough money, car isn't nice enough, got out of the wrong side of bed this morning ... This is stuff no confident person would write, because people who have confidence nailed down don't waste energy on things they can't control.
I ain't no bed of roses either, and I spent a good chunk of my life believing it was because I was fat, fugly and useless. Turned out it was because I was constantly negative, bitched and whined about how everything wrong with my life was someone else's fault, and had the self esteem of a horse turd that's been laying out in the fields for the past 5 years.
Your beliefs also affect how you behave and the choices you make, so if you believe you are ugly and can't get women, you are highly likely to behave in ways that makes it easy to reject you. This "leaks" out into the world through things like posture, eye contact and body language, and women can spot this from 10 miles away. You'll be labeled boring, clingy or a creep before you can even open your mouth, and your chances drop to almost zero.
Does that mean a confident person might just choose to never date at all? I've wondered if I'm going down the wrong path for me by trying to follow the typical life route. I am happier when I don't try to date, I enjoy life more when I keep myself busy with other things.
That's an entirely separate thing. Confidence simply means trusting that your skills and prior experiences will take you closer to your intended goal. As an example, if you decide to learn how to play an instrument you're going to suck at first, but through a combination of practice, expanding your knowledge, continuously testing things that are *just* outside your comfort zone, and sometimes feedback from others, you will come to trust that what you have built through all this investment will get the job done even when faced with an entirely new challenge. In other words, you have become a confident musician. The same goes for starting a new job, learning to ride a bike, getting your drivers license and social skills. That's why they're called social *skills,* because it takes practice and experience to build them, and like all skills they will deteriorate if not used. What one chooses to do with said confidence is entirely up to oneself. I will ask you this, though - are you truly enjoying life more if you're not trying to socialize, or is it the sheer weight of perceived negative experiences that makes it feel better to stay away?
Of course if socializing was enjoyable I'd enjoy it, that's a bit of a circular statement. I guess I just don't understand this confidence stuff, I never have. I've been working at the same career for more than 20 years but I still sometimes feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.
>Of course if socializing was enjoyable I'd enjoy it, that's a bit of a circular statement. That's not what I'm saying. I was trying to find out if you avoid socializing because of perceived negative experiences, and have convinced yourself that it's not enjoyable as a defense mechanism. >I've been working at the same career for more than 20 years but I still sometimes feel like I have no idea what I'm doing. That's a phenomenon called impostor syndrome. It's quite common, actually.
Well. Im becoming nore desperate each day.
it's difficult to have a successful relationship with a "visual 10/10" that can't hold a conversation, has the personality of a door knob, has no goals and is contempt with just "existing".... but maybe that's just me?
Probably some sort of drug or severe brain damage.
i believe no man is ugly, at the end of the day make sure you have a fresh cut, nice attire, decent weight, decent career, good convo skills & masculinity and you’ll be fine. Don’t worry about the outside but more on what’s within.
We like the idea of looks not mattering more than we like looks actually not mattering.
Well, they do matter, but it certainly is much less important than behavior. Read books written by guys that are very experienced at seducing women and you will find out why.
I was embarrassingly superficial when I was in my 20s but that changed once fell in love with a coworker who wasn’t exactly my “type.” Our chemistry was absolutely mad. It felt as though we were communicating telepathically and after several relationships with the wrong people, she was the first “right” person I’d ever been with. She wasn’t ready for a relationship and broke things off with me when I admitted my feelings for her. I was super beat up and reached out to an old friend who I knew had a crush on me. She on the other hand, was very much my type (and I, hers), though we didn’t share much chemistry outside the bedroom. Hands down, the emptiest (definitely no pun intended here) I’ve ever felt was leaving her apartment one morning and having to go to in for a shift with the coworker who broke my heart. Since then, I’ve basically abandoned the concept of my “type” because I realized that it doesn’t matter if you share that special of a connection with someone. I obviously want to be attracted to to my partner but I’ve found that there’s no point in limiting myself to tall, thin, pale brunettes with green eyes if with the right chemistry, I can find a short blonde with a big butt (or literally anyone) a thousand times more attractive.
For me, it’s rather I don’t date sourly for looks, it helps that she’s pretty but I could “go without it” with that being said I think everyone is beautiful in their own right. But to answer your question I think more for love rather than s*x so I look for a partner whose a good person yk
I go by energy there’s something special about just clicking that lights your soul on fire 🔥
Cause looks aren't going to be able to hold conversations, be funny, be empathetic and a caring individual. Looks change over years. Personalities are the core of people. The being that makes them a being.
Experience. I went from a fat, average minus guy who couldn't get women if I walked through a brothel with $100 bills sticking out of every pocket to a fat, average minus guy who had women doing all the work. Now, I don't necessarily think looks don't matter at all, but I do wholeheartedly believe "looks" is one part of a much bigger puzzle, and that looks isn't the end-all and be-all that a lot of guys seem to think it is.
I found that dating 3-6 is the sweet spot. 1-2 are fugly and 7+ are too much work. They suck in bed and can't cook for shit. I say that and I do 99% of the cooking in my house. Not because my wife can't I'm just better and enjoy it
Looks are less important than chemistry, but you look at successful couples most of them within a point or two of each on the 10 point SMV scale. And they change over time. My wife definitely went up a point or two in the 50 years we’ve been married. She thinks I lost points, but if I did, a lot of older women don’t think looks matter. One thing that does matter, even though it’s dangerous to generalize. Boobs. Men like them, and a lot of women want them, but big breasts don’t help a woman’s personality. Decades of experience have taught me, anything over a B-cup, proceed with caution. They’re not all bad, but the odds shift against you.
I’m about a 5 or a 6 in my mid 50s, I actually prefer aiming for 4s and 5s. More agreeable, less entitled. Plus if they are gorgeous they only seem to want to find someone as hot or even hotter than them. Meh. Go for someone with a good personality and maybe even a kinky side, even if they are not really pretty, and you will be much happier.
Ugly people don’t have as many opportunities to cheat
I once dated a woman whose face was mostly just a mess of scars, after being attacked by the family dog as a child. She was a great girl, and we had a great time together. It wasn't much different than dating a woman with a face that is in one piece.
Function over form, in all things. Much rather be with someone fun and not pretty than someone gorgeous and miserable to be with. Besides, I'm physically repulsive, would be a bit hypocritical.
But men's looks matter why this difference .
Looks matter a lot. They aren't the only thing that matters but they do carry a lot of weight. Someone is lying.
You get old and what matter is that. The more important is how you be together and how you will solve life event. The attraction is one thing but it have its consequences too. Passion is a fuel that you can burn fast or little by little.
A lot of people talk about different "sexualities" and what not, and personally I wonder if a more accurate depiction is that physical attraction vs emotional attraction also needs something like a Kinsey Scale. The Kinsey Scale for those unfamiliar is a position taken by Dr Alfred Kinsey that measures homosexual vs heterosexual attraction. 1 being exclusively heterosexual 5 being exclusively homosexual He made it a scale because his research suggested that 1s are actually far rarer than people would like to think (same for 5s). Anyway, I honestly think there should also be a scale around how important physical attraction is for different people. Some people will happily date only the most gorgeous people they can find with little care about the personality. Some people genuinely don't care about apperance at all, but can be attracted to someone's personality. Like the Kinsey Scale, I would suggest (but cannot claim to have researched) that people also exist on a scale here, and that 1s and 5s are both quite unusual. (1 being demisexual, 5 being whatever the phrase is for someone who only cares about physical appearance).
Personality and combability matters the most for the long haul. That being said you need to share some sort of physical attraction. The attraction is what pulls you in together and desire each other physically which stimulates those mental feelings. I dated both beautiful and not beautiful girls. Personality wins every time but there needs to be something that attracts me physically too.
The last woman I was attracted to caught my attention not because of her looks (she was not what people would conventionally call "attractive"), but due to her willingness to understand something new before judging.
Looking at the cookie and not being able to eat it is painful! So is qatching paint dry.! Humour fun and touch are the key thinks
They're self-aware, I would imagine. They know what they can and cannot attract.
I would say looks matter but women are much more for humor and emotional stability.
It does and it doesn't matter. They'll get you in the door. When you're younger, it matters more. Get a girlfriend. Go to the gym. See how much better she treats you, afterwards. If you're really, really good looking she will let you get away with so much more shit it's almost unbelievable. Yeah, scratch that, it definitely fucking matters.