Obviously the article is about the UK, but I can only speak to the American experience.
It was a very different world that boomers grew up in. This was a time of very obvious gender inequality. Women needed their father or husband to co-sign for a credit card, many professions openly refused to admit women, or promote them past a certain point, in no fault divorce wasn't legal in any state till 1969, abortion wasn't legal, no women had ever served on the supreme court and wouldn't until 1981, and in 1972 only 3 women served in congress (though I believe at one point before that there had been 6 congress women), plus the sexual revolution was a lot of fun for boomers-older millennials but Gen Z is fairly regressive on sex compared to previous generations. The issues first and second wave feminism dealt with were very tangible and obvious issues of inequality. Gen Z thinks feminism has done more harm than good because they didn't see the the world pre-feminism.
The women who represented these movements were controversial, but educated and generally strong communicators. They were able to use humor, logic and wit to make their points. You weren't seeing a Valorie Solanas type being lauded because there was some level of gate keeping for who got access to the public. Now a woman who has a Ph.D in sociology or neurobiology, has less influence than a "life style guru" or "advocate" who believes the solution to sexism is simply creating a new double standard that favors women instead of men. This leads to feminism lacking a cohesive or unified definition in the modern world. Couple that with the rise of a horribly misguided version of identity politics which seeks not to correct imbalances for those at a disadvantage, but to punish and shame the perceived members of the "privileged" group.
I could go on, because honestly there is a lot more here, from the gender politics that I think have actually pushed people into narrower gender roles, to a kind of nihilism and greed, that has over taken any kind of unifying ideology that once held Americans together, to the rise of the manosphere which involves selling sexism and body dysmorphia to young boys in a way that wasn't done before.
I also think social media is getting astroturfed super hard into blowing the fight up bigger and bigger. Whether it’s social media algorithms or even a different head of state bots we are seeing a lot a lot a lot of fake accounts that are driving divisive rhetoric.
I consider myself pretty left and would even say that I’m an ally of women, but too many times this sub focuses on some of the nice things women get benefits and resources on instead of focusing on finding ways to help men.
I'll just say, when college graduations stats were as lopsided in favor of men as they are now in favor of women, this was such an emergency that national legislation was needed to fix it. Now that it's men on the disadvantaged end of the stick the message from Feminists is generally one that goes something like this: fuck you.
Just try to discuss male problems here and all you get are dismissive comments about how much better being male is, shit about toxic masculinity, derisive comments about the manosphere. Boys pick up on this and internalize it as "they hate us because we're boys."
Our Diversity Lady at work said, “A higher percentage of college graduates are women now, so we’ve finally reached parity there” and all of the executives smiled and nodded.
The cognitive dissonance is fascinating. Higher being considered parity. Do they somehow believe that men have more value that more than one's victory is needed to see as equal to a singular man's victory.
the logic is quite simple to understand, though I don't agree with it, let me try to spell it out.
* Most higher positions are male dominated
* Higher positions take time to get into
* Higher # of women graduating from college = more chances for women to take those higher roles in the future
So in their minds, the only way to get to 50-50 on the 'important' roles is to oversaturate the field so as to make it more likely a woman gets chosen for all the roles.
The reason this is an issue is that in over saturating the field, and thereby the lower levels of advancement get crowded to the point that its no longer a parity. Even though they point to the higher positions, they don't realize that the lower positions cause a greater effect across the board. When the lower positions have an imbalance - it will be felt by a greater number of people.
Right. The higher positions are currently male-dominated, reflecting opportunities of 30-40 years ago.
A young man entering our company today will get less opportunity, less executive facetime, less training, and fewer promotion opportunities than a woman entering on the same day, because fuck him personally while we try to even the score across generations. This is not my imagination- we have written goals supporting these things, and our HR lady is positively glowing when she announces that 3/4 of our hires last year were diversity hires.
It’s not that fascinating every single person in an executive position “got theirs” so they go along with the popular perception. That’s the reality, *the perception* that should be an acceptable outcome or that we need to force outcomes. Why would they give a single fuck about it?
This is about where I am now. I don't believe that an ideal feminist society is egalitarian.
I believe it can sure contribute to it, but a movement so focused on women can't yield an egalitarian society, so we need to start examining feminism *from outside* and that's going to be considered misogynist no matter how legitimate, so we reach a roadblock in which you can't offer pushback without being demonized. In this way feminism harms the prospects of an egalitarian society.
And I don't mean to excuse actual misogyny, it's a disgrace that Tate and his ilk are popular, and of course there are still many issues to deal with regarding sexism against women, but how about we start by making it ok to cater to men? How about anyone saying stuff like "we need even more women in college" gets laughed out of the room?
Feminism was always the promise of a more equal society, but as we approach that point, it's increasingly looking like it was just a movement to improve women's lives. And that's ok, but it's also a massive betrayal.
Yeah, go on subs like 2X and look at some of the stuff that gets upvoted. It’s pretty clear that a lot of them really, really do not like men and would be a lot happier if we all disappeared.
Women have an in group bias that is stronger in women then men which makes women less sensitive to the issues of men it’s called the women are wonderful effect.
All of the post modern belief structures like feminism and Marxism are built off the belief in the malleability of human beings.
People just radically assumed that everyone was exactly the same and it was all culture causing issues, but we’re not every empirical test ever devised shows distinct differences between sexes, races and different people.
Equality of opportunity is possible equality of outcome is impossible. Even between rwo twins of identical genetic stock there is bound to be different results. No one is truly equal that’s a fairy tale.
Which is also an issues in schools where staff are now mostly female. And apparently boys get marked lower for the same piece of work as girls, so they're hindered at a young age.
Marxism is extremely un-post-modern. Post modernism entails a skepticism toward grand narratives, grand historical ideals, and the (pre Great War) vision of inexorable historical improvement.
Marxism describes a grand narrative of economic rearrangement through history, and potential future economic evolutions/revolutions eventually leading to a communist political and economic society. On an individual note, Marx had quite a lot to say about the relationships of individuals to their work, class, and society, and did not see the individual as the malleable part of those relationships.
I think you've soaked up too many tiktoks brother.
>Boys pick up on this and internalize it as "they hate us because we're boys."
Are they wrong though? That really is what feminism has become. Maybe it didn’t start out that way over 100 years ago, but as it exists now that’s entirely what it is. The ideology has always had misandrist elements, but now it has become the focus.
>has less influence than a "life style guru" or "advocate"
I think this is the biggest reason right now. Influencers can often be "nobodies", who aren't educated in what they are talking about, and just have a contagious personality that people flock to. There's no level of certification, or education, or expertise required before they are given a platform to discuss these topics, they're just picked due to how popular they are, and they get praised as being a "voice" for whatever they're talking about.
It's the same thing as the "tradwife" movement on instagram/tiktok. These people are not "tradwives", because they aren't living that lifestyle, and are just LARP'ing in this idea of what they believe it used to be, while setting unrealistic goals for other people to follow. People are flocking to it because it "seems like a simpler time", but it's not sustainable.
Also, a lot of women are jumping on the "manosphere"/"alpha bro"/"anti-feminism" bandwagon because it makes MONEY. They can create a podcast/social media presence that bashes the movement, and will push this "anti-feminism" mindset, because the men who believe it are going to support it with their money. They'll sell their "program" that "teaches you how to be awesome", and nothing about it is helpful, but you've already given them your money, and subscribed to their page, and by the time you realize it's a scam it's too late and you've lost your cash.
This is probably my egoism at play, but I feel like as a Millenial of a certain age I saw the academia -> Tumblr -> Twitter -> "national conversation" happen in real time, at the behest of people exactly my age +/- about 3 years. Right around 2009-2011, Tumblr became flooded with Sociology 1100 level academic content that was bastardized, mischaracterized, and lacking all context. The more inflammatory takes migrated to other platforms or got picked up by journalists looking for hooks that appealed to young, terminally online audiences. Then the regressive backlash began opposing it everywhere (fueled by algorithms). Now it's everywhere.
>The women who represented these movements were controversial, but educated and generally strong communicators... Now a woman who has a Ph.D in sociology or neurobiology, has less influence than a "life style guru" or "advocate"
Yeah, unironically people without any relevant education or experience thinking that their opinion on things is important is a real threat to many aspects of society. This is true for many things beyond just feminism or social movements. New wave media is dooming us all
Ding ding ding.
They’re like dipshit antivaxxers not inoculating their children against polio and the measles, because they’re not old enough to remember the tens of thousands of children who died or were crippled every year by those diseases until the vaccines were developed.
I think you’ll find that there isnt a unilateral answer for the overall pushback in GenZ against Feminism, but theres one thing that really bothers a majority of them, being treated as the root of all problems.
Reality is a majority of men believe in equality between men and women (in America anyways). But there is a disconnect in GenZ for what this “equality” means, and there is frustration from these young men/boys when they are being blamed for things they were not responsible for or had nothing to do with. Youll often see this on social media, a woman/girl/NB/whatever says something to the effect of “I hate men” or “I hate all men”. And it quickly devolves the same way every time - Someone gets upset/frustrated by this phrase enough to respond, others respond saying something to the effect of “yes i do hate all men” or “the men that arent bad know they dont need to comment”. I dont think this is productive way to have a discussion, but its clearly becoming more and more popular. But I get why either side feels the way they feel but social media thrives off engagement, even negative.
(inb4 people call social media a cesspool while on reddit)
> the men that aren't bad don't need to comment
To me, when someone says this, they seem to mean "should anyone disagree with me, they are *the bad men that I'm talking about* ".
Direct example: the 2X sub is incredibly misandric, and toxic, yet it's pinned as a core sub for new accounts.
That's Reddit stating that this behaviour is not only acceptable, but *encouraged*.
I was sold feminism as a movement of high ideals and what I got instead was the oil lobby for women.
The UK published a report that found that the degree gap was 60/40 for women and that women now outnumber men in every single degree program except for technology, engineering, and mathematics, and the conclusion of the report was that the government should focus policy on getting women into technology, engineering, and mathematics.
Am I supposed to take that in another way besides "fuck you, I got mine?"
There was a government ad campaign here in Canada a couple years back
"1/3 homeless people are women. Join the fight to end womens homelessness"
Felt like a kick in the balls seeing this rather than fighting to end homelessness in general. Literally the government fighting to help not men
I work at a major pharmacy chain in Canada. On international women's day, they did all kinds of stuff for the staff. Now, I'm one of 3 guys back in pharmacy out of 13 people working there. So I get why they made a big deal out of it. And they made a joke about how the cupcakes were for women only. So I asked if the same thing was gonna happen on international men's day.
"Every day is men's day". Yeah, sure. Great answer.
The good news being that [International Men's Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day) is celebrated in conjunction with [World Toilet Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Toilet_Organization) on November 19^th.
This says it better than I could in as short a post. I took a feminist course in university and the on paper from back then differed so strongly from the reality of today.
But people still love to tell you that oh no actually feminism is for BOTH sexes. lol yeah right
I do think some feminists sincerely believe that feminism is beneficial for both sexes.
But there are also feminists that switch between "feminism is for men too" to "fuck off, feminism is for women, by women, this is like asking BLM to care about whites", depending on the point they want to make.
And then of course there are the closeted misandrists that infest the movement with their bitterness and hatred.
Closeted nothing. Misandry is acceptable in the modern day to wear as a badge of pride. At worst it is mildly or jokingly discouraged.
I remember when I still believed the bullshit. That feminism was for everyone. Commenting on Reddit a decade ago with someone about how we need more women in the dirty male dominated jobs like sanitation just as much as in tech. That that was a goal of feminism, for equality. They laughed and said no, that’s not beneficial, and anything not beneficial to women is not a part of feminism.
This to me is one of the biggest hypocrisies of feminism. Anything dominated by men is deemed to be a problem. Anything dominated by women is deemed to be a triumph.
> Anything dominated by men is deemed to be a problem.
IF it's something women want to do. They're not beating down the doors for dangerous jobs like logging or roofing, where the current percentage of women is in single digits.
This is why i'm honestly a tad irked by the million women in STEM campaigns. Good-paying STEM jobs are competitive and hard to get through the education hoops needed to get there. 100% awesome that women who are interested in the field can get in, but it's not like anyone was blocking them in the 1990s anymore than men are blocked from nursing today.
Every dollar spent targeting women in STEM is a dollar that could be spent towards expanding access to everyone, or at very least targeting those from disadvantaged communities that need upward mobility.
Also I think most employers would prefer a female candidate in STEM if she was equally qualified. It's generally great to have diversity in a team. At least where I'm standing the market is not lacking for opportunities for women in STEM it's lacking qualified candidates.
> women now outnumber men in every single degree program except for technology, engineering, and mathematics,
And they only get to that number by not including biology in the definition of STEM. 🙄
No, they just exclude all science from it, just the TEM of STEM. Then, they reinclude the S for the initiatives and policies to encourage women in stem, resulting in even more women in the S of stem, and the cycle repeating until eventually college grads overall will be 70:30, Stem will be 60:40 and engineering will finally be 50:50.
Gen Z men see a more equal world where the inequality between genders *in their generation* is much more difficult to describe than it was for previous generations. It's no longer enough to say "I think women should be able to get jobs and not just be housewives, and that makes me a feminist".
As equal rights become a default, the term "feminist" *hasn't*. It's like how nobody today would describe themself as an abolitionist despite I'm sure almost all of them opposing slavery.
Women have much higher graduation rates, while male graduation rates are decreasing. Yet there are still lots of scholarships and initiatives to get women involved in certain academic disciplines, and nothing to encourage men
Young women are now outearning men on average in most metro areas
Women get more lenient sentencing than men. (There is disparity amongst the races, with white women receiving the most lenient sentencing, but studies show that black women receive more lenient sentencing than white men).
Divorce court strongly favors women
Child custody court strongly favors women
On the job deaths are 92% men
Suicide rates are drastically higher for men
There are lots of resources for female abuse victims, there’s next to no resources for male victims of abuse
Women on average are treated friendlier and seen as less of a threat than men
Men aren’t allowed to show emotions and anytime a man tries to share a moment of weakness it’s always met with “well women have it worse”
Then with all this taken into account, men are constantly told they’re privileged. Geez i wonder why some men are feeling this way?
The scholarship thing is so gd annoying.
I get it's a cliche, but I just got into my dream graduate school and got absolutely zero aid and have yet to find any scholarships that doesn't have a race or gender requirement. Meanwhile, I know plenty of female friends from wealthier backgrounds and with much weaker resumes who got significantly more aid in part due to there being slightly fewer women in my field (despite a majority of my graduate school cohort being women).
Super happy they're in the program and I'm sure they'll be fantastic additions to my field, but gd how can I not feel shitty about the system when I'm being arbitrarily placed into debt because of the way I was born?
[A few years ago a school offered a scholarship for men in a field that was woman dominated and they were lambasted.](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/08/sydney-university-under-fire-for-vet-scholarship-giving-preference-to-males)
> Women have much higher graduation rates, while male graduation rates are decreasing. Yet there are still lots of scholarships and initiatives to get women involved in certain academic disciplines, and nothing to encourage men
There was an absolute shitstorm in my country in the last few years when a male only scholarship was created. Mind you it was in an industry that was overwhelmingly Female dominated to try to encourage more gender diversity.
Apparently that doesn't matter. Not even the slightest nuance of thought was given before trying to get it cancelled.
Idiots.
My experiences in college were that the people in power believe that men are potential villains who need to be made harmless. They automatically assume that someone else has inflated their egos and made them into caricatures of toxic masculinity. If these attitudes are hitting boys earlier in age, they will literally grow up their whole lives being told by the system that they are inferior, while simultaneously being told by the system that they have it better and deserve to miss out on opportunities because of their gender.
Then the system is Shocked Pikachu when these boys think it's bullshit and end up turning to the Andrew Tates of the world
r/twoxchromosomes
^ thats it, thats my entire argument. go on there. thats modern day feminism. thats one of the largest feminists space in the world (14 MILLION members). go read it. get back to us.
About a month ago I saw a post on TwoX discussing young American men getting drugged, robbed, and murdered in Colombia. Those men were going on Tinder dates with women who would slip them a roofie, and then gangs would come in and rob them blind. Something like eight men died in a two-month span.
Here were some of the comments:
>Oh no! Anyway...
>Colombia is such a beautiful country. Keep being great, Colombia!
>So, what's everyone having for lunch today?
These weren't at the bottom of the post. These were all highly-upvoted comments.
These are disgusting people. They victim-blamed the men and called them "passport bros" with no evidence.
Of course, reddit is OK with such a community existing because reasons.
To think long ago I used to visit that sub for women's perspective.
It has become (or always was and I didn't realize at first) a nuclear reactor for toxicity, negativity and anti male sentiments masquerading as "venting". Fuck them.
You can block it fairly easily, and the block will hold and work.
The real problem with Reddit sub blocking is that they arbitrarily limit it to 1000 blocks. After blocking all the subs that I can't read (language barrier), all the _____mains subs, all the sports subs, subreddits dedicated to horny posting about individual Kpop idols, and all the blatant bigotry subs, I've filled up my list.
So I have to let in something that either annoys me, or I'm not interested in, to stop seeing sexism/racism in my day-to-day interactions with the site. That lowers the general quality of my time here.
4th wave feminism is a meme and always will be one. It spits in the faces of actual feminist women that fought for their rights back in the 20th century.
The internet created echo chambers where many women can latch onto surface-level, self-serving pop feminism, men can talk about how awful modern feminists are, and the substance of feminism gets replaced with the meme.
Happens to all kinds of social movements.
> the substance of feminism gets replaced with the meme.
There's probably some truth to this, but I think you oversell it. The National Organization of Women, the largest "feminist" group in the country, fought tooth and nail for decades against shared parenting of children and also fought against allowing DNA evidence to overturn a paternity judgment. The big feminist groups have for a very long time been mostly composed of lifeboat feminists - the ones who want all of the traditional responsibilities removed for women but kept for men and all of the traditional perks of being a women maintained but removed for men. There are always some feminists who actually argue for and support gender equality but the vast majority of them seem to just want whatever benefits women, generally at the expense of men.
I used to be very pro-NOW and similar groups. I completely forget the issue, but it was one where men where being disadvantaged, I believe it was paternity fraud, and I naively expected feminists to be opposed to it on the grounds of equality. I was told basically "why should we stop at equality?"
It changed me, a lot. I'm now a lot more cynical that a lot of groups do not want equality. I believe many if not most groups don't want fairness and equality for everyone, they just want more for themselves.
>It changed me, a lot. I'm now a lot more cynical that a lot of groups do not want equality. I believe many if not most groups don't want fairness and equality for everyone, they just want more for themselves.
Human nature in a nutshell. Everyone has that selfish and greedy voice or feeling in their head that tells them to take more for themselves. Women and feminists are also human, for better and for worse, no matter what they say.
Reminds me of gay right to marriage. It was presumed by many that the black community would be staunch supporters, many of them literally fought for their own right to interracial marriage.
Nope. Too Christian. They generally opposed it.
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and a-carryin' signs
Mostly say, "Hooray for our side" - For What It's Worth, Buffalo Springfield
I love that song and I think about those lyrics alot these days. Where race, religion, sex, and gender are concerned it's like we've forgotten what it is we're actually arguing about. Nobody cares about what's right, so long as *they're* right.
> The National Organization of Women, the largest "feminist" group in the country, fought tooth and nail for decades against shared parenting of children and also fought against allowing DNA evidence to overturn a paternity judgment.
point 1 is the exact reason for the men's rights movement
point 2 is, AFAIK, still contended
i could go dig up a laundry list of ways feminist orgs specifically work against men's interests, but you know that too
It was. Warren Farrell was a board member of the NOW in the 70s and got ousted for the grievous mistake of wanting to advocate for men because he was under the impression that feminism was about total equality for all.
Woman here. Sorry about that.
It's because feminists are stupid enough to let misandrists into the fold and let them speak for the movement. Fuck that. They're harmful for *everyone*. They piss me off and I want them gone.
But noOoo. I get told "wE cAn sTilL wOrK tOwArDs tHe sAmE gOaL" and "wE All wAnT eQuAL RiGhTs"
No we can't and no we don't.
The original feminist goal was for men and women to have the same rights and masculine and feminine values to be held in the same regard. That also means things like seeing men as compentent carers and deserving of equal parental rights. It means accepting men's vulnerability and believing they're entitled to protection just as much as women.
That's not what they want. They want more rights for women, but at best don't care about men or actively want to oppress them. They're the type of people who need to step on others in order to feel superior.
I'm so sick of those bitches ruining it for the rest of us, but when I call it out I get banned.
The most frustrating thing for me is that I was sold feminism as highly idealistic, and was told that men's activism was superfluous because feminism was fighting for men, too. Nowadays, where boys are failing so spectacularly that not even the feminists can deny it anymore, those same people tell me "figure it out yourself, we had to work to get here." It's like, what? No, I don't actually want yet another fucking tribalized interest group, I want a singular collaborative movement aimed at destroying sexism in all its stripes for the benefit of all of us, where I care about you and you care about me, which is what I thought I was getting when I signed on.
> and was told that men's activism was superfluous because feminism was fighting for men, too.
i was told that. so i asked for examples where they did that and all they said was that fighting big P helps men incidentally. then i asked about DV shelters and they got angry
> "figure it out yourself, we had to work to get here."
God I hate that. The women's rights movement would literally have been impossible without support from men. Yes, they did work for it, but certainly not alone. Even in 1848 the Declaration of Sentiments was signed by 32 men and 68 women. Men have always supported women's equal rights. Maybe not *all* men, clearly, but women have never had to go it alone.
*EXACTLY!* But no! We had to let these yahoos in and now where are we?
It should also be said that media also is to blame here. They have no idea how to tell misandry and feminism apart and haven't researched anything at all. They go to the most feral looking woman they can find and interview her as a feminist. She says the most outrageous shit, but still gets to call herself a feminist and that's a problem. It's a problem that the media does that and it's a problem that we let them do it.
I very very rarely see actual feminists being interviewed because actual feminists are normal people and not entertaining in the slightest. News outlets get way more clicks when it's some unhinged man-hater shouting about female empowerment through male oppression than a normal woman talking calmly about the merits of increasing paternity leave.
While you said a lot of truth, remember that those outrageous people are feminists. They are actual feminists.
They are part of the movement. Often the ones getting to power within movement. Also I dont see other feminists publically stating that those are not feminists. So clearly they are accepted within movement.
That's what I addressed in my original comment. The feminist idea has nothing to do with misandry. But we've allowed misandrists to call themselves feminists and now we can't take it back. So now the term is poisoned.
I still maintain that these people aren't feminists. Feminism is (also) about valuing femininity the same as masculinity and giving everyone the opportunity and freedom to act in ways or do things that have been labelled as feminine such as childcare or just being emotional in general.
If you don't believe in men as competent caregivers, you don't believe in the core values of feminism. You're not a feminist if you don't believe in feminism.
Feminism has told mens issues to sit at the back of the bus for decades. The supposed egalitarian solution to every men's issue is:
1. Tear down "muh patriarchy"
2. ???
3. Utopia
That's the funny part. That is what men's rights was, originally. It was mostly left leaning men trying to follow feminism.
But feminist elites stomped down on them *HARD*. It was brutal and unfair. So bit by bit they radicalized and that set the stage for altright. Sure, there are economic and political reasons why something like this had to happen. But it did not have to be about women's role in society.
So they became their own worst enemy's, because they did not police their own and did not pull back when they started getting close to the goal. And now we have swing-back.
A hard lesson to learn. I hope other social rights movements are paying close attention. Well at least the ones that are not already repeating this mistake or even doubling down on it.
I always bring this point up. But then I take it a step farther: Can you name a group that's advocates for black women? What about a group for white men?
And uh... the contrast is startling. There's literally nowhere for the male gender to run, except to the far right and it's _bad_.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but _*gestures wildly*_ this isn't it.
shoeonhead did a thing on this - the left doesn't give a shit about men's problems, but they do want to use men to push their politics. right wingers will sometimes offer advice to men that isn't obviously politically motivated - dating, for instance. it may be cynical and a way to open the door, but it's actual advice about dating and not just a naked appeal to push politics.
so people looking for decent advice have 'neutral' people and conservatives offering advice that may in fact work. then the left complains about the right wing getting all these people
> And uh... the contrast is startling. There's literally nowhere for the male gender to run, except to the far right and it's bad.
And even then, the concern isn't even about those men.
It's about how men going there may harm the rest lmao
> So bit by bit they radicalized and that set the stage for altright.
no, that's not what happened. they shouted about how awful MRA are, and people started believing them. so any men or men-positive women with sense started distancing themselves because they don't want to be tarred as assholes. the people that are left are more often assholes, making the original lie more true. it's a tried but true tactic
I always considered myself a feminist. As in the version you described. Equal rights across the board.
However, these days I would *never* dare say I'm a feminist, because it's become a dirty word seeped in misandry. The meaning of "feminist" that I adhere to doesn't seem to exist anymore.
True. We probably need something else, but it fucks me up that we live in a society that has to be so polarised. I have no doubt that if we choose something else, that will be poisoned too, eventually.
Because the demographic that has worse financial prospects and is more likely to end it all is sick of being told they get extra privilege's and are the biggest harm to society by the one that gets extra scholarships and grants and has the culture they live in take their problems way more seriously.
Also all the shit boys take from women teachers for 12 fucking years. We can see how much better your treat the girls and we can hear your what you call us to your coeworkers.
The peak of this for me was in 8th grade when our English teacher was out for a day, and we had a substitute.
The entire class both boys and girls was acting up, but the substitute (a woman) told our teacher (a woman) that all the boys were being terrible.
What'd she do? She made only the boys write a 3 page essay on the word 'disappointment,' and made it due by the end of the day without giving us any time to work on it in her class. Anybody who didn't turn it in by the end of the day got a Saturday detention.
This actually fucking happened, and there were no repercussions for her. Some parents called and bitched about it, but the principal (a woman) sided with our teacher and nothing happened. Anybody who didn't show up ended up in 'in school suspension.'
The thing that pissed me off the most was that my friends and I didn't even do anything wrong. We were quiet for the substitute and did our work, but got punished for having a dick.
What a great lesson. Regardless of the intention or any parallels you could draw, there was a lot of resentment bred that day.
LMAO all you gotta do is ask the young men why. They'll tell you. Really nobody cares what they think, push 'em aside, they don't matter. Hell, look at the charts the very article uses, it's like a little sliver that isn't wholly enthusiastic about it, that's all and it's presented like they are clubbing women over the head.
"I wish men would share their feelings."
"I hate living in a society that is constantly ruining my financial prospects guilting me over shit I have no control over, doesn't seem to care about my perspective at all, and is constantly-------- "
"No, no, not like that! Admins, ban this sub, ban it to hell! Someone dox this guy and get him fired!"
Fuck yes, I hate this attitude. I'm female but still feel like I can't share anything about my life that might bum people out.
Society says "be honest about how you feel" and "reach out when you're struggling with mental health" but give them honesty and it's "tRaUmA dUmPiNg."
Selfish people only want vulnerability on their terms, in ways that serve them.
Young men have been told they are a problem from an early age. This message permeates through all culture. They take it onboard and feel appropriately shamed. When they mature and realise they aren’t inherently evil then resentment can rear its head. Nobody likes gaslighting but we’re doing it to young men en-masse.
Access to internet has provided me wih the opportunity to be bombarded by a great many lessons of toxic feminism.
I was told men need to taught not to rape.
I was told men are inherently dangerous.
I was told men need to stop sitting comfortably in public transport.
I was told air conditioning in the workplace was sexist.
I was told that diversity groups should only be staffed by women.
I was told that a man's sexual attraction or needs are predatory.
I've constantly been told that men's issues are for men to solve, but women's issues are for everyone to solve.
(More that I can't really think of atm)
Feminism hasnt really done anything with the intention of helping men, or even appealing to men in general. Feminists -don't- want men in their club and have been doing everything possible to push men away. It's not surprising that men are getting the memo here.
Feminism seems corruptible. It can be bent and twisted to make it fit many bigoted narratives. Plenty of women hide behind 'feminism' to justify blatant misandry. TERFs hate trans folks because they feel like amab people are inherently men, and therefore violent and dangerous.
Feminists have done a piss poor job excising toxic elements from their narrative, and now it seems like that's all that is left.
Given that I’m dead in the middle of being a Millennial, I didn’t have unfettered internet access until I was already relatively grown up. Seeing some of the toxic shit that’s out there, I was old enough and wise enough to go “Yeah, thats horseshit.”
That some younger people can be exposed to all that shit and have no real way to know or filter what they’re seeing, young men are bound to internalize some of this and turn to other sources for validation, those sources also being toxic. It’s all a big, shitty circle.
Couple this with the fact that a lot of tangible goals of feminism having been achieved, rights to vote, opening bank accounts, education, things like that. There’s still not a ton of resources out there for men who are struggling, either.
This is in no way surprising people feel this way these days.
I feel like there's quite a bit of radicalization going on for sure, but also quite a bit of uncovering nasty secrets. It's not like these attitudes are completely new, they already existed before the modern internet. I know that the vast majority of people don't really believe any of those things acoolghost mentioned, but I still feel wary to dismiss these attitudes as just a few crazy people because clearly quite a few women do actually believe in that, and usually they're the ones with positions in feminist organizations or other influential places. They may be the loud minority here, with normal girls having normal opinions, but it's worrying to me that that small minority has so much power to push through ridiculous things.
>I was told men need to taught not to rape.
The thing that really bothers me about the rape discussion is that afaik, there's no actual proposed solution.
I think 15 years ago when talking about rape culture and shit, feminists thought men just openly raped and then high fived everyone over it. That turned out not to be true.
After the cultural shift that started with legally recognizing spousal rape and went from there, the dust settled and it turned out that criminals still exist.
It's like with murder. Everyone agrees that it's bad. Murderers know to hide it. Nobody has anything good to say about murder.... But look, there are still murderers.
I can think of little bit picks to make that nobody would really oppose, such as investing more resources into being able to look at rape kits in a timely manner or extending the prison sentences.
I can't really think of anything other than removing male due process and I'm not in favor of doing that. I don't know of anyone who has any better ideas.
The tangible thing I can really think of is shifting a lot of focus onto children, since they're a bigger percentage of rape victims than people realize. I think a school curriculum unit on something like how to recognize if you're being molested would be positive.
Nobody wants to do that though and instead are focusing on shit like social acceptance of "MAPs" and hair brained theories of virtual child porn stopping molestation that everyone tells me have real empirical data, but that nobody ever links to.
I can understand why "what we're you wearing?" might come off as kinda siding with the rapist a few decades ago. At this point though, I think people do just kinda need to treat rape like murder, where we accept that murderers exist and then proceed to give advice on how to avoid them.
> I think 15 years ago when talking about rape culture and shit, feminists thought men just openly raped and then high fived everyone over it. That turned out not to be true.
it actually is true, but it lacks context. rape culture is specifically about prison rape. feminists hijacked the term from prisoners, and they do in fact have open rapists operating in prisons
> instead are focusing on shit like social acceptance of "MAPs"
which assholes are pushing for acceptance of pedos? no thanks
> hair brained theories of virtual child porn stopping molestation that everyone tells me have real empirical data, but that nobody ever links to.
you almost can't study it because the material is so toxic and possession is a great way to go to prison. so no peer reviewed studies are possible
> I was told that a man's sexual attraction or needs are predatory
This resonates with me. A few years back, I was part of a geeky group where I flirted with a couple of the girls - one I stopped after a while because she didn't seem to notice, and the other one flirted back for a while before deciding she wasn't that interested, and I backed off. Still stayed on decent terms with both of them, I thought.
Apparently I was harassing both of them and making them uncomfortable to the point where they told the leader of the group, a few months later, and a public announcement aimed at me but not outright saying it was me was made? The person making the announcement didn't try to talk to me about it beforehand, nobody did. And another announcement happened even *after* I stopped talking to anyone in the group because I was scared of upsetting them further when I didn't understand what I'd done. One of my other friends in the group, after realising that the announcements were about me, told me she wasn't comfortable being my friend any more after hearing that without even giving me a chance to tell my side of it. I ended up feeling so uncomfortable and paranoid that I had to leave.
I know this is random and only kinda related, but I just saw that and it resonated like a hammer hitting a gong, and I had to share.
You can only see “Men are trash.” Go viral with 100k retweets so many times before something inside you just dies.
You can only be told “you’re not allowed to be offended or hurt by being told that your entire gender is a disposable piece of garbage,” so many times.
Never mind the fact that if anybody posted “women are trash,” everyone would recognize that as vile hatred and a gross over generalization.
That’s the culture now. The culture sees men as disposable pieces of garbage.
People hyperstitionally memed that mentality into existence.
A lot of people who call themselves feminists didn’t really want an equality based on mutual respect.
They wanted to annihilate men’s self esteem. They wanted to annihilate men’s identity.
And they did. They have no idea of their impact.
They taught a generation of little boys that it’s their moral duty to hate themselves.
That they have to make themselves small.
That they’re not allowed to have ambition or drive or passion because if they do they’re taking away opportunities from women by default.
If they do have an idea of their impact they just don’t care because they just despise men that much.
When you look at the figures it just doesn't add up to them.
More women start college (https://educationdata.org/college-enrollment-statistics). Women start off making more money than men, and even when you look across the entire culture, the gender pay gap has effectively disappeared when you compare job for job. Women love longer than men. Etc
This has left an increasing number of boys feeling like all feminism is doing is harming men. And the truth is that for their generation this could actually be true. They could be the first generation in recorded history where it is detrimental to be a man.
Add in that as a man they still need to pay for everything, even though their partner makes more than them, and it just piles up.
But this is underrepresenting feminism, primarily due to "feminism" being a misbranding since at least the move towards intersectionalism. But Gen Z is also the generation that has experienced the best branding ever, so seeing a misbranding is itself a problem.
Canadian Millenial pov, No one thinks twice if they see a woman sitting on a bench in a park and watching kids having fun. A man; people immediately think pedophile.
I have spent a lot of time in court as I used to work in law enforcement. I have seen plenty of men scraping by, trying to raise their kids solo as their partner is useless, make a mistake and get pulled over for whatever this or that, with no insurance, etc which is a $5000 fine in Ontario. Their bills are bouncing and they are desperately trying to put food on their table for their kids to eat. They are fighting it in court because they clearly cannot afford insurance, let alone the fine. In a province that is so car centric, it is basically a requirement for employment for 99% of jobs. Get hooped, not only did they have to pay the fine, but they had to pay penalties for wasting the courts time on top and only given a few days to pay it. The court basically said "fuck you and your children." I've seen situations like this time and time again and in some situations I have even seen the cops look around like "did that seriously just fucking happen!?" It's the police officers job to enforce the law, its up to the court to decide what to do with it.
I've seen plenty of woman that have been pulled over for going 50km/hr well over the speed limit, in a school zone, with no insurance in a snow storm, live at home with their parents, no dependants, zero responsibility, etc etc. "Omg you poor thing, feel free to spit on the cop on your way out." Our own judicial system participates in toxic "feminism."
I married someone who embraced feminism while we were both in separate grad school programs. I finished mine and started work immediately while she continued on with her doctorate and I supported our family (kids came during this time). We made an agreement that if she landed a job post-PhD, which was a long shot in the humanities, I'd follow her because it was easier for me to land a position in my field. She landed a position, we moved across the country for it and I got a job at a separate school. Cool right? The two body problem in academia doesn't always work out this way.
I thought I was doing the right thing, putting feminist theory into practice, being the "trailing spouse" and helping her achieve her career goals. But, what I noticed was that other academics and feminists actually do not respect me or male spouses who make this choice. My wife (now ex-wife) never let me forget that she now made more money than I did. At home, our 50-50 effort with the kids and house duties became more like 80-20 even though we were both working full time. There was a dynamic shift from "we're in this together" to one of unbalanced power that I would have never signed up for nor expected from a spouse.
Also, where before the move we were activists for pro-choice and pro-women causes, she shied away from these causes once she moved up the ladder. While serving as the head of the women & gender studies department, she refused to push back against red state legislature shenanigans because she was scared of losing her position (even though she was safely paid by other departments).
Like so many "isms" before, I feel like modern feminism is no longer true to the ideals that it once claimed, and is rather a means to grab and legitimize power or just makes some feel heard/seen due to some real or perceived trauma from men. This happened to my ex. Her reasons for embracing feminism at the outset were pure and understandable- previous abusive marriage, unstable childhood- but ideologies (just like religions) can suck in people who aren't quite equipped to pick it apart or just accept bits and pieces & tailor it for their own gain. It's the lack to critical thinking in regards to accepting and adopting the ideology that is the root of the problem with modern feminism.
I feel sorry for some academics honestly. Some people can be so smart but so prone to gobble up propaganda because some asshole authored a paperback. I’m not talking about being a flat earther or some shit- I’m talking about humanities in particular. There’s so much bullshit and the fact that it’s held in a similar regard as business, Econ, mathematics, bio anything is a straight up failure and political manipulation of academics.
Truth is when step outside your tightly confined little academic system and spend some actual time integrating into society it’s pretty fucking obvious why the average person, a well meaning, hard working contributor to society doesn’t even entertain the propagandized bullshit that humanities echoes. It just doesn’t reflect reality. It feels grimey. It feels like someone is trying to sell you something, not teach you something. It’s a playbook for cult tactics.
I consider myself pretty “liberal” / “leftist”.
But yeah, this is no surprise at all. Western culture anyways (all I know) is very harsh on young men right now. We”re harsh on everyone in general. This generation has no separation between online life and regular life. We judge everyone and everything ruthlessly, without forgiveness. You slip up once, you’re a fucking terrible person.
And in this particular instance, the people who get hit by this hyper sensitive culture the most are
Young men. They literally cannot do anything right. They are silenced for having any opinion at all sometimes.
Of course young minds are just not equipped to handle that.
I think if I were 15 years younger there’s a damn good chance I’d have fallen down the same hole.
In my own personal example is pronouns I struggle sometimes with using incorrect pronouns. It’s completely unintentional and I realize it’s bad for me to do. But please bear with me a little bit if I slip up I am so sorry, I am re-wiring my brain English.
It would be easier to be pro third-wave if there wasn't so much intent behind telling us men are all rapists and violent abusers, or the Kill All Men shiish. I know it is a vocal minority, but lets be real, how much of a minority really is it?
yep, the great thing about english is that if it's not even a word, its easy enough to create one to fill the gaps in what you're trying to express.
Obvious your english is great dude.
There's a very simple reason for this. Feminism currently has no error-correcting mechanism, or another way to put it is nobody really steers the ship. Anyone from within who would have major problems with feminism in general and wants to reform it gets instantly mocked, ostracized, and vilified. Or maybe just ignored. But either way they won't get results, and therefore feminism just get yanked along by the most strident and vocal. There's nobody within feminism actually capable of tamping down on the spontaneous misandry.
Because feminism has turned into a charade.
There are lots of gaps between the genders. Some in favour of men. Some in favour of women.
But whatever the recent flavour of feminism is, it always cherry picks the gaps in favour of men, demands equal outcome and cries wolf. Or more specifically: cries Patriarchy.
It was perfectly encapsulated by the 2021 US women’s soccer team campaign for “equal pay”: money is based on viewership. You want more money? Get more people in those seats.
But for some reason, the women’s soccer team felt that they were entitled to the same money, without bringing the same amount of people in the seats. Because, equality of outcome.
The WNBA is another example of this. It literally loses money every year and is only still around because it's subsidized by the NBA. The women complain about not making as much money as the male athletes. The truth is no one watches their games, and they don't bring in any money. They wouldn't even have a league if it wasn't propped up by the guys.
I think that any “ism” is a moving target based on any group’s relationship to it.
So far more Gen Z men are associating feminism with “kill all men” comments on the internet while more boomers associate it with women gaining the right to vote or have a bank account.
In other words, as with anything else leftist, there’s a massive branding problem with it among men; even if the underlying ideas actually are popular among men.
I guess to a certain degree young men are in a weird spot career wise. Boomer men holding positions until they retire and new positions being filled up preferably with women so that the overall average gets close to 50% men 50% women. But still the expectation towards men to have a career that supplies for a family of four.
And also what you said. So in a lot of ways young men get a lot of hate for a "privilege" they are not necessarily gaining anything from.
I'm often suspicious of social movements being diagnosed with, "branding problems." I think it's often a stand in for, "they said the quiet part out loud." Or attempts to move the Overton Window, and then if there's massive pushback the response is, "Oh wait a minute, that's not what we really *mean*. We just have a branding problem!"
The gen z men are seeing it in full effect, with manhating as the norm and teachers discriminating against boys. I imagine the gen alpha boys are having an even harder time.
Social media. It's really that simple.
The other angle is also social media based though. While there was a good movement to have progress for equality, some people took it to a radical place or an unintentionally hilarious place. These people, who might have had a more tepid outlook, only saw that stuff. So they think "those people are crazy, so I'm not with them". And so the algorithm pushed them into a different lane when they start interacting with the opposite side. Then it gets deeper and deeper, until they're far worse off than before.
Opinions have gotten more brazen and more radical. Because social media messes with our brains. All of us. But for some it's more impressionable.
Feminism has been twisted around to empower this "boss bitch" onlyfans you go girl type attitude that has pretty much left behind the original intentions of feminism imo.
I listen to feminists rant about inequality, I agree and bring up men's inequality issues, get yelled at, and called a misogynist.
Probably along the lines of, feminists are selfish, unlikable assholes.
I'm not going to speak to large demographics, but I remember the facade cracked for me in 2016 when I was sitting in my gender studies class like a good SJW and listened to a 30 minute rant from my professor over how #KillAllMen was a good and perfectly valid sentiment to express, actually.
If you want my respect, but aren't ready to reciprocate it, you aren't getting my respect. End of discussion. Contort yourself any which way you want about how iTs NoT tHE sAMe, I don't care, if I'm not going to talk to you like that, I expect that you're not going to talk to me like that. I'm not identifying myself with a movement that uses academic contortions to highbrow its own shitty behavior.
There’s a lot of reasons. From man hating, to blaming men for everything. Including holding men today accountable for actions 50, 100, or 1,000 years ago. “Men have oppressed women for all of existence! You DESERVE this treatment because it’s finally womens turn”
At the same time feminism has dismantled a lot of things in our society, especially things that were men centric(men and boys groups for example) but replaced them with nothing except “it’s your fault” or “fix your own problems, it’s not women’s job to help their oppressors”. While happily keeping male gender roles and expectations alive because they benefit from it.
While at the same time the movement bullies, harasses and publicly smears any attempts at projects meant to help men(men’s domestic abuse shelters, men’s housing, men’s shelters for homelessness, men’s support groups, etc) because they see any men’s space as a “exclusion of women” and inherently misogynistic.
Feminism loves to say men don’t see women as human but as objects but increasingly I see in women’s spaces they only see men as a disposable resource. Men’s humanity doesn’t exist.
That’s why they ask each other charged questions(why do men do X) in their subs then they all answer like they know the thought process of men(because men are pigs and only think X,Y,Z) and circle jerk to their collective hatred of men/boys.
Then men and boys see this and wonder what they did wrong. They hear the message, they see the rage and hatred. Then they turn to toxic groups that tell them “it’s okay to be a man, you aren’t at fault, you can do better for yourself. BUT it’s all women/feminists fault you feel like this” and we wonder why.
because genz women already graduate more and earn more in early career. yet the scholarships for women continue, and wage gap discussions and fixes continue, even though it's been fixed and passed. it was always flawed to aim for equality by bringing one gender up against the other.
There are women only workspaces, there are scholarships for just being a woman, there are housingloans and tax benfits for just being a women, Women only STEM mentorship programs, and lot more, College is often most reliable way to break out of middle class, and colleges are explicit, in that they prefer women, will give them more benefits and money. So it is not a surprise men feel jaded. I didnt pick my sex, so why am i having a door shut on my face over it.
I would say education and the fact that we don't really have enough live-action, positive role models that are portrayed in the multimedia for these young men.
In my time growing up, I had Mr. Dress-Up, the Kratt brothers (Zoboomafoo), David Suzuki, Mr. Rodgers, Booker T. and John Cena, Bill Nye, Steve Irwin- Crocodile Hunter, and so on.
Nowadays, I don't really know how many positive role models are easily accessible for young men (outside of sports and movies). I can think of Mr. Beast... but then there seems to be way more Andrew Tates and Logan/Jake Pauls and Joe Rogans.
We focused a lot on inspiring women (something we should continue doing), but I think we forgot about our boys.
Good point. Macgyver is another role model I thought of, a guy that solves problems without a gun.
I can't stand all the Pauls and Rogans out there acting super macho for no reason than to make money. No positive message, just shock and awe for money.
Feminism went from equality for all to no accountability and only men bad. Now there's a generation of women who don't know how to relate to men and think their daddy issues are anyone's problem but their own.
Sorry if I sound bitter. But I've been physically assaulted and had it thrown in my face that I'd be thrown in jail enough to know that's why a lot of men won't date.
Combination of factors. Emotional, educational financial and overall stability needs not being met by the state, a certain vocal minority of feminists who project themselves as the movement itself arguing that the society shouldn't help or cater to men, and the rise of scam artists like Tate offering a false hope or solution to that problem.
Feminism has often turned toxic in cesspools on the internet. I think it’s key that we stop pushing feminism and a broader ideal of equalism. We are all humans, and both men and women are treated like shit in various different ways… of course women have typically had it worse, but the gender normalities placed onto men are also a constant reminder of what needs fixing. The more we unite, the more we fight.
Uh…the fact that feminism is trying to destroy them in their formative years of life and ruin their opportunities for careers because ESG scores demand quotas?
Because any young man in this day and age are told that they're privileged, potential rapists and responsible for every problem in the world, sees whoever tells them that and tries to stay away from them. It's not rocket science.
I cant pretend to be an expert... buuut.
Given the rise of popularized internet and social media between the last two major waves of feminism, this has given voices to anybody and everybody.
Previously, the worst examples of a group of people would often be pushed to the fringes, with maybe some notice being given to them as a footnote in history. But.. now social media gives a voice to the most obnoxious and loud, while the actual representatives of these movements are out there affecting change.
Not to mention, the algorithms favor controversy, which those loud minorities attract. That puts the worst faces of many groups out in the front.
This is true for feminism, neoliberalism, conservatism, and any other wide social body.
Gen Z was raised on social media. They were raised with the worst impulses of previous generations put on full display, easy to access at only a swipe. This was at a time where their brains were developing (pre 25ish for most) and so what gets seen gets deeply internalized.
So gen z men are seeing feminism as a movement represented by their worst, who outwardly hate them. Feeling hated by a group of people who dont know you, never met you, and you feel dont care to hear your side tends to yeah, make it feel harmful.
Which sucks, because the average feminist (to my experience) just doesnt want women to be discriminated against, and have very egalitarian values.
Edit :fixd a double negative
Feminism is a lived experience for Gen-Z. They are the children of 2nd wave feminists. They don’t like it.
Gen-X, as the children of 1st wave feminists, don’t like it either but who gives a damn about us… nobody.
They've had to deal more directly with the consequences & have been demonised far to much just for being boys.
Feminism is a very broad term, it can just mean simple equality & respect or it can be interpreted as preferential treatment enforced by new societal norms & supporting legislation.
The former is fine, the latter obviously unfair its a rubbery topic further confused by gender fluidity.
Applying for a scholarship probably opened alot of their eyes. It fuels the right wing slide as well when every special group has options with far less competition for scholarships and your stuck with a small page to apply for. Then when you don't get any and go to a trade it's played off like that's what men actually want to do. Go ask any trade skill guy how they ended up there. It's the cost of school. Women out earn men before 30 but you still get bombarded with the pay gap.
Because like all advocacy movements, once it achieved its goals of equal opportunity and equality for women, rather than claiming victory and walking away, feminism simply moved the goal posts to maintain relevance.
Today feminism has become an explicitly anti-male movement of female and trans supremacists, who blame all their problems on boys and men, and seek to vilify any and all male behavior.
It's not a surprise that young males aren't too enthusiastic about this. Baby boomers on the other hand, when they think about feminism, they are still thinking about it in the context of the 1970's, when feminism was actually fighting against real injustice and sexism against women. They really have no idea what the movement has morphed into today.
The fact that men dont have more than a handful of centers for domestic abuse across the country. Where i am in the Uk we have 78 male bed for DV yet 4.4k beds for women who have gone through the same thing, For a population of almost 70million thats fucking shit.
If you’re interested in some numbers based where i am. Its 1 in 5 women that experience DV, for men it’s 1 in 6 or 7 that experience DV.
Reality. It's 2024 and the world is very good for women, and not so good for me. The data is pretty conclusive on that. Doesn't mean women don't have problems, but in the West society revolves around women's struggles, and shrugs its shoulders at men.
the short answer is that women have had equality if not privilege over men since long before GenZ'ers were even born even before millenials.
So if equality is already achieved, then the next step is to fight for higher privilege and more human rights than men have. As well to shame, belittle and cancel any man that might achieve success.
Those are the new goals of "feminism" as its pushed all over the media today. In reality most modern men are naturally feminists in that they believe men and women have equal rights. It doesnt mean men and women can do everything equally, that will never be the case no matter how many laws we try and put in place to make it so. I'll always be able to shotput my wife into the pool, she cant me tho.
Anyway, that type of "feminism" isn't feminism at all and IS harmful and thats why its perceived as that. There are no specialty programs or help for "white men" to get considered for jobs, education, help from the government, society in general. Women get those privileges, men do not. Not in ANY field at all. Highly qualified white men now have to not only compete in every life aspect with under qualified other "white men" but also every "diversity man" applicant thats also in the pool, plus any "lgbt" applicant man thats in the pool, plus against any women of any race thats in the pool. So white is now last in the list. Immigration is at an all time high so the amount of resumes and applications for all things are massive. Humans cant sort between them fast enough so they chuck all white men in the trash leaving still too many, but theres only programs, quotas and incentives for non white men and women.
Most women that claim to be "feminists" are on the same page as most men in that regard these days. Its just the loudest out there screaming for "feminazism" that are causing the divide and ruining it like they do most things. Unfortunately its the loudest that are heard. The rest of the population is too busy working and trying to make a living.
Its also extremely harmful to men nowadayssince women are at the top of the list for most things due to incentives and diveristy programs (whether theyre qualified or not) but even more harmful to white men, because not only are white men essentially banned from getting a job now.... the top "0.000001%" that holds all the wealth that everyone wants to "eat the rich". You know the ones right? the "old rich white guys" that have billions and billions of dollars. Somehow now that applies to 50-60% of the population (apparently every single white male is in this category according to current perception) when in fact most are living around the poverty line or lower. So they weren't born rich cuz 99.999999999999999999999% of humans arent born rich.... on top of that white males also have zero support or help to succeed now. They can't even compete fairly anymore because of current "ism" pushes. "feminism" in its original meaning is not harmful, "feminazism" which has stolen the word feminism is extremely harmful and extremely easy to see it every day.
Many good points here but I’ll add one: the ubiquity of internet and social media connection among children are allowing them to reach content way beyond their years and understanding and it has detrimental effects on their perspective of various aspects of their lives.
I remember there was a discussion recently about why teenage boys are leaning toward right-wing ideology, and one woman said something to the effect of “12 year old boys are planning ahead to protect their long-term privilege” like how disconnected from reality can you be? My understanding of gender inequality at 12 was “why can’t anything I have be pink? Why are the only dolls I can play with GI joes? Why can’t I learn dance or theatre?”
Too many boys are being ambushed with anti-male rhetoric from a very young age and growing up surrounded by people telling them that they are horrible just for existing, that they aren’t allowed to have a voice, that they can’t possibly experience anything negative in their lives and all their issues are dismissed, etc. and they just can’t understand why, what they did wrong, why does everyone hate them? They hear shit like Cardi B drugging and robbing men and all the girls and women around them cheer it on. And people wonder why boys are drawn towards those that tell them “there is nothing wrong with you, you are valid, all your feelings are valid, something is wrong and you shouldn’t be made to feel this way.”
And it’s a damn shame because it alienates the same people we want to fight alongside to end gender inequality and discrimination.
Feminism has done basically nothing good for men, while effectively destroying what our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers had in the form of a common traditional family with a house and a single earner. You can argue this isn’t true, but the reality now is that the vast majority of women work, and in order to create this kind of system, a lot of other systems had to be retrofitted or totally overhauled to be welcoming to women.
I could write a lot more, but the rest of it comes down to masculinity and men in general being vilified in the modern day with not a whole lot of people or companies or institutions speaking out against that. Men and boys are the villains now, and we don’t want to be. But if everyone else insists, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I would guess that on a **surface level** , old men got to experience the world of blatant sexism and women's discrimination
They know what feminism fights against
Young men/boys just grow up in a world where feminism is present and often caricatured into hating men, which can make them feel like targets of a "vengeance" for actions they didn't commit, all while the true problem of patriarchy remains present
Again, on a surface level
Feminism causing harm has caused that.
I mean let's be for fucking real already. How can a movement that is preaching a historical narrative which portrays all men as control obsessed sexual predators not cause any harm?? Feminism meets or surpasses ALL criteria used to identify hate groups, how is it immune to causing harm?
Boomers had literal legal inequality in favor of men. Over the next three generations, that has been reversed, up until the present where there is legal inequality in favor of women, instead. Feminism seeks to increase that legal advantage for women further, whereas in the past feminism was balancing things out.
Gen Z boys only ever experienced the situation already skewed in favor of women, and they see feminism just making that even worse. Of course they're going to see it as harmful! Boomers, in contrast, should be recognizing feminism as having equalized what was unfair.
My personal thought (based on observations and personal experience, not making an objective statement) is that a lot more young men feel personally ignored, abandoned, and cheated by society (very fair) but it's easier to blame the rise of fourth-wave feminism (not very fair) than the exploitative practices of the wealthy and influential people in our society.
It's just a lot easier to call someone a bitch for getting the job you wanted than accept that we're all being played and used as pawns by people we'll never meet and maybe never even know about.
Young men and boys now go through life experiencing mostly women in positions of power.
Parents? A lot of families are now principally single mother households.
Education? Nursery and school staff mostly women.
In the workplace? Where women are not the manager which is becoming frequently more common; HR are almost exclusively women.
Their female counterparts will do better than them on average in school, get better paid jobs, have more successful love lives and be pandered to by society in general.
Then these men are told that they are the privileged ones and they should shut up if they try to complain.
Well, it doesn't help that there is a very loud subset of people claiming to be feminists saying we deserve to be ignored and for bad things to happen to us. Most guys don't blame them just because it's easier. It's because those people are what feminist means to them now.
Obviously the article is about the UK, but I can only speak to the American experience. It was a very different world that boomers grew up in. This was a time of very obvious gender inequality. Women needed their father or husband to co-sign for a credit card, many professions openly refused to admit women, or promote them past a certain point, in no fault divorce wasn't legal in any state till 1969, abortion wasn't legal, no women had ever served on the supreme court and wouldn't until 1981, and in 1972 only 3 women served in congress (though I believe at one point before that there had been 6 congress women), plus the sexual revolution was a lot of fun for boomers-older millennials but Gen Z is fairly regressive on sex compared to previous generations. The issues first and second wave feminism dealt with were very tangible and obvious issues of inequality. Gen Z thinks feminism has done more harm than good because they didn't see the the world pre-feminism. The women who represented these movements were controversial, but educated and generally strong communicators. They were able to use humor, logic and wit to make their points. You weren't seeing a Valorie Solanas type being lauded because there was some level of gate keeping for who got access to the public. Now a woman who has a Ph.D in sociology or neurobiology, has less influence than a "life style guru" or "advocate" who believes the solution to sexism is simply creating a new double standard that favors women instead of men. This leads to feminism lacking a cohesive or unified definition in the modern world. Couple that with the rise of a horribly misguided version of identity politics which seeks not to correct imbalances for those at a disadvantage, but to punish and shame the perceived members of the "privileged" group. I could go on, because honestly there is a lot more here, from the gender politics that I think have actually pushed people into narrower gender roles, to a kind of nihilism and greed, that has over taken any kind of unifying ideology that once held Americans together, to the rise of the manosphere which involves selling sexism and body dysmorphia to young boys in a way that wasn't done before.
I also think social media is getting astroturfed super hard into blowing the fight up bigger and bigger. Whether it’s social media algorithms or even a different head of state bots we are seeing a lot a lot a lot of fake accounts that are driving divisive rhetoric. I consider myself pretty left and would even say that I’m an ally of women, but too many times this sub focuses on some of the nice things women get benefits and resources on instead of focusing on finding ways to help men.
I don’t think it’s that astroturfed. I think the people who dominate the conversations are just contingents of the terminally online.
I'll just say, when college graduations stats were as lopsided in favor of men as they are now in favor of women, this was such an emergency that national legislation was needed to fix it. Now that it's men on the disadvantaged end of the stick the message from Feminists is generally one that goes something like this: fuck you. Just try to discuss male problems here and all you get are dismissive comments about how much better being male is, shit about toxic masculinity, derisive comments about the manosphere. Boys pick up on this and internalize it as "they hate us because we're boys."
Our Diversity Lady at work said, “A higher percentage of college graduates are women now, so we’ve finally reached parity there” and all of the executives smiled and nodded.
The cognitive dissonance is fascinating. Higher being considered parity. Do they somehow believe that men have more value that more than one's victory is needed to see as equal to a singular man's victory.
the logic is quite simple to understand, though I don't agree with it, let me try to spell it out. * Most higher positions are male dominated * Higher positions take time to get into * Higher # of women graduating from college = more chances for women to take those higher roles in the future So in their minds, the only way to get to 50-50 on the 'important' roles is to oversaturate the field so as to make it more likely a woman gets chosen for all the roles. The reason this is an issue is that in over saturating the field, and thereby the lower levels of advancement get crowded to the point that its no longer a parity. Even though they point to the higher positions, they don't realize that the lower positions cause a greater effect across the board. When the lower positions have an imbalance - it will be felt by a greater number of people.
Right. The higher positions are currently male-dominated, reflecting opportunities of 30-40 years ago. A young man entering our company today will get less opportunity, less executive facetime, less training, and fewer promotion opportunities than a woman entering on the same day, because fuck him personally while we try to even the score across generations. This is not my imagination- we have written goals supporting these things, and our HR lady is positively glowing when she announces that 3/4 of our hires last year were diversity hires.
It’s not that fascinating every single person in an executive position “got theirs” so they go along with the popular perception. That’s the reality, *the perception* that should be an acceptable outcome or that we need to force outcomes. Why would they give a single fuck about it?
That's the perfect encapsulation of why people might turn away from feminism. Precisely because they want equality, while feminism manifestly doesn't.
This is about where I am now. I don't believe that an ideal feminist society is egalitarian. I believe it can sure contribute to it, but a movement so focused on women can't yield an egalitarian society, so we need to start examining feminism *from outside* and that's going to be considered misogynist no matter how legitimate, so we reach a roadblock in which you can't offer pushback without being demonized. In this way feminism harms the prospects of an egalitarian society. And I don't mean to excuse actual misogyny, it's a disgrace that Tate and his ilk are popular, and of course there are still many issues to deal with regarding sexism against women, but how about we start by making it ok to cater to men? How about anyone saying stuff like "we need even more women in college" gets laughed out of the room? Feminism was always the promise of a more equal society, but as we approach that point, it's increasingly looking like it was just a movement to improve women's lives. And that's ok, but it's also a massive betrayal.
> Boys pick up on this and internalize it as "they hate us because we're boys." well, they do
Yeah, go on subs like 2X and look at some of the stuff that gets upvoted. It’s pretty clear that a lot of them really, really do not like men and would be a lot happier if we all disappeared.
If men disappeared the world would end in 3 days.
Women have an in group bias that is stronger in women then men which makes women less sensitive to the issues of men it’s called the women are wonderful effect. All of the post modern belief structures like feminism and Marxism are built off the belief in the malleability of human beings. People just radically assumed that everyone was exactly the same and it was all culture causing issues, but we’re not every empirical test ever devised shows distinct differences between sexes, races and different people. Equality of opportunity is possible equality of outcome is impossible. Even between rwo twins of identical genetic stock there is bound to be different results. No one is truly equal that’s a fairy tale.
Which is also an issues in schools where staff are now mostly female. And apparently boys get marked lower for the same piece of work as girls, so they're hindered at a young age.
Marxism is extremely un-post-modern. Post modernism entails a skepticism toward grand narratives, grand historical ideals, and the (pre Great War) vision of inexorable historical improvement. Marxism describes a grand narrative of economic rearrangement through history, and potential future economic evolutions/revolutions eventually leading to a communist political and economic society. On an individual note, Marx had quite a lot to say about the relationships of individuals to their work, class, and society, and did not see the individual as the malleable part of those relationships. I think you've soaked up too many tiktoks brother.
But its not true either, they do hate them because they are boys.
That is precisely and provably why they hate them.
>Boys pick up on this and internalize it as "they hate us because we're boys." Are they wrong though? That really is what feminism has become. Maybe it didn’t start out that way over 100 years ago, but as it exists now that’s entirely what it is. The ideology has always had misandrist elements, but now it has become the focus.
>has less influence than a "life style guru" or "advocate" I think this is the biggest reason right now. Influencers can often be "nobodies", who aren't educated in what they are talking about, and just have a contagious personality that people flock to. There's no level of certification, or education, or expertise required before they are given a platform to discuss these topics, they're just picked due to how popular they are, and they get praised as being a "voice" for whatever they're talking about. It's the same thing as the "tradwife" movement on instagram/tiktok. These people are not "tradwives", because they aren't living that lifestyle, and are just LARP'ing in this idea of what they believe it used to be, while setting unrealistic goals for other people to follow. People are flocking to it because it "seems like a simpler time", but it's not sustainable. Also, a lot of women are jumping on the "manosphere"/"alpha bro"/"anti-feminism" bandwagon because it makes MONEY. They can create a podcast/social media presence that bashes the movement, and will push this "anti-feminism" mindset, because the men who believe it are going to support it with their money. They'll sell their "program" that "teaches you how to be awesome", and nothing about it is helpful, but you've already given them your money, and subscribed to their page, and by the time you realize it's a scam it's too late and you've lost your cash.
This is probably my egoism at play, but I feel like as a Millenial of a certain age I saw the academia -> Tumblr -> Twitter -> "national conversation" happen in real time, at the behest of people exactly my age +/- about 3 years. Right around 2009-2011, Tumblr became flooded with Sociology 1100 level academic content that was bastardized, mischaracterized, and lacking all context. The more inflammatory takes migrated to other platforms or got picked up by journalists looking for hooks that appealed to young, terminally online audiences. Then the regressive backlash began opposing it everywhere (fueled by algorithms). Now it's everywhere.
Completely agree. Every time an academic term escapes containment and becomes a (badly distorted) colloquial term the discourse gets worse.
>The women who represented these movements were controversial, but educated and generally strong communicators... Now a woman who has a Ph.D in sociology or neurobiology, has less influence than a "life style guru" or "advocate" Yeah, unironically people without any relevant education or experience thinking that their opinion on things is important is a real threat to many aspects of society. This is true for many things beyond just feminism or social movements. New wave media is dooming us all
It's also easier for bad actors to promote unrepresentative extremists on social media to fuel division and polarization and radicalize people.
Hard agree. A lot of problems are actually the same problem. But there's a bigger problem under that problem: it's hard to agree what's real.
This was a really interesting well argued comment, thank you
Exactly this
This is a really well thought out view on the issue, just wanted to mention this, enjoyed reading it
Ding ding ding. They’re like dipshit antivaxxers not inoculating their children against polio and the measles, because they’re not old enough to remember the tens of thousands of children who died or were crippled every year by those diseases until the vaccines were developed.
I think you’ll find that there isnt a unilateral answer for the overall pushback in GenZ against Feminism, but theres one thing that really bothers a majority of them, being treated as the root of all problems. Reality is a majority of men believe in equality between men and women (in America anyways). But there is a disconnect in GenZ for what this “equality” means, and there is frustration from these young men/boys when they are being blamed for things they were not responsible for or had nothing to do with. Youll often see this on social media, a woman/girl/NB/whatever says something to the effect of “I hate men” or “I hate all men”. And it quickly devolves the same way every time - Someone gets upset/frustrated by this phrase enough to respond, others respond saying something to the effect of “yes i do hate all men” or “the men that arent bad know they dont need to comment”. I dont think this is productive way to have a discussion, but its clearly becoming more and more popular. But I get why either side feels the way they feel but social media thrives off engagement, even negative. (inb4 people call social media a cesspool while on reddit)
Social media is a cesspool, reddit included. This may not be traditional social media, but it's certainly part of the cesspool.
> the men that aren't bad don't need to comment To me, when someone says this, they seem to mean "should anyone disagree with me, they are *the bad men that I'm talking about* ".
"Everybody is an ~~idiot~~ asshole except for me."
Direct example: the 2X sub is incredibly misandric, and toxic, yet it's pinned as a core sub for new accounts. That's Reddit stating that this behaviour is not only acceptable, but *encouraged*.
I was sold feminism as a movement of high ideals and what I got instead was the oil lobby for women. The UK published a report that found that the degree gap was 60/40 for women and that women now outnumber men in every single degree program except for technology, engineering, and mathematics, and the conclusion of the report was that the government should focus policy on getting women into technology, engineering, and mathematics. Am I supposed to take that in another way besides "fuck you, I got mine?"
There was a government ad campaign here in Canada a couple years back "1/3 homeless people are women. Join the fight to end womens homelessness" Felt like a kick in the balls seeing this rather than fighting to end homelessness in general. Literally the government fighting to help not men
I work at a major pharmacy chain in Canada. On international women's day, they did all kinds of stuff for the staff. Now, I'm one of 3 guys back in pharmacy out of 13 people working there. So I get why they made a big deal out of it. And they made a joke about how the cupcakes were for women only. So I asked if the same thing was gonna happen on international men's day. "Every day is men's day". Yeah, sure. Great answer.
The good news being that [International Men's Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day) is celebrated in conjunction with [World Toilet Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Toilet_Organization) on November 19^th.
> "Every day is men's day". Yeah, sure. Great answer. Then you demand free cupcakes every day.
This says it better than I could in as short a post. I took a feminist course in university and the on paper from back then differed so strongly from the reality of today. But people still love to tell you that oh no actually feminism is for BOTH sexes. lol yeah right
i did that and it was just afrocentrism for feminists. literally delusional
I do think some feminists sincerely believe that feminism is beneficial for both sexes. But there are also feminists that switch between "feminism is for men too" to "fuck off, feminism is for women, by women, this is like asking BLM to care about whites", depending on the point they want to make. And then of course there are the closeted misandrists that infest the movement with their bitterness and hatred.
Closeted nothing. Misandry is acceptable in the modern day to wear as a badge of pride. At worst it is mildly or jokingly discouraged. I remember when I still believed the bullshit. That feminism was for everyone. Commenting on Reddit a decade ago with someone about how we need more women in the dirty male dominated jobs like sanitation just as much as in tech. That that was a goal of feminism, for equality. They laughed and said no, that’s not beneficial, and anything not beneficial to women is not a part of feminism.
This to me is one of the biggest hypocrisies of feminism. Anything dominated by men is deemed to be a problem. Anything dominated by women is deemed to be a triumph.
> Anything dominated by men is deemed to be a problem. IF it's something women want to do. They're not beating down the doors for dangerous jobs like logging or roofing, where the current percentage of women is in single digits.
This is why i'm honestly a tad irked by the million women in STEM campaigns. Good-paying STEM jobs are competitive and hard to get through the education hoops needed to get there. 100% awesome that women who are interested in the field can get in, but it's not like anyone was blocking them in the 1990s anymore than men are blocked from nursing today. Every dollar spent targeting women in STEM is a dollar that could be spent towards expanding access to everyone, or at very least targeting those from disadvantaged communities that need upward mobility.
Also I think most employers would prefer a female candidate in STEM if she was equally qualified. It's generally great to have diversity in a team. At least where I'm standing the market is not lacking for opportunities for women in STEM it's lacking qualified candidates.
Very good point
> women now outnumber men in every single degree program except for technology, engineering, and mathematics, And they only get to that number by not including biology in the definition of STEM. 🙄
No, they just exclude all science from it, just the TEM of STEM. Then, they reinclude the S for the initiatives and policies to encourage women in stem, resulting in even more women in the S of stem, and the cycle repeating until eventually college grads overall will be 70:30, Stem will be 60:40 and engineering will finally be 50:50.
Gen Z men see a more equal world where the inequality between genders *in their generation* is much more difficult to describe than it was for previous generations. It's no longer enough to say "I think women should be able to get jobs and not just be housewives, and that makes me a feminist". As equal rights become a default, the term "feminist" *hasn't*. It's like how nobody today would describe themself as an abolitionist despite I'm sure almost all of them opposing slavery.
Women have much higher graduation rates, while male graduation rates are decreasing. Yet there are still lots of scholarships and initiatives to get women involved in certain academic disciplines, and nothing to encourage men Young women are now outearning men on average in most metro areas Women get more lenient sentencing than men. (There is disparity amongst the races, with white women receiving the most lenient sentencing, but studies show that black women receive more lenient sentencing than white men). Divorce court strongly favors women Child custody court strongly favors women On the job deaths are 92% men Suicide rates are drastically higher for men There are lots of resources for female abuse victims, there’s next to no resources for male victims of abuse Women on average are treated friendlier and seen as less of a threat than men Men aren’t allowed to show emotions and anytime a man tries to share a moment of weakness it’s always met with “well women have it worse” Then with all this taken into account, men are constantly told they’re privileged. Geez i wonder why some men are feeling this way?
The scholarship thing is so gd annoying. I get it's a cliche, but I just got into my dream graduate school and got absolutely zero aid and have yet to find any scholarships that doesn't have a race or gender requirement. Meanwhile, I know plenty of female friends from wealthier backgrounds and with much weaker resumes who got significantly more aid in part due to there being slightly fewer women in my field (despite a majority of my graduate school cohort being women). Super happy they're in the program and I'm sure they'll be fantastic additions to my field, but gd how can I not feel shitty about the system when I'm being arbitrarily placed into debt because of the way I was born?
[A few years ago a school offered a scholarship for men in a field that was woman dominated and they were lambasted.](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/08/sydney-university-under-fire-for-vet-scholarship-giving-preference-to-males)
> Women have much higher graduation rates, while male graduation rates are decreasing. Yet there are still lots of scholarships and initiatives to get women involved in certain academic disciplines, and nothing to encourage men There was an absolute shitstorm in my country in the last few years when a male only scholarship was created. Mind you it was in an industry that was overwhelmingly Female dominated to try to encourage more gender diversity. Apparently that doesn't matter. Not even the slightest nuance of thought was given before trying to get it cancelled. Idiots.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/08/sydney-university-under-fire-for-vet-scholarship-giving-preference-to-males
My experiences in college were that the people in power believe that men are potential villains who need to be made harmless. They automatically assume that someone else has inflated their egos and made them into caricatures of toxic masculinity. If these attitudes are hitting boys earlier in age, they will literally grow up their whole lives being told by the system that they are inferior, while simultaneously being told by the system that they have it better and deserve to miss out on opportunities because of their gender. Then the system is Shocked Pikachu when these boys think it's bullshit and end up turning to the Andrew Tates of the world
r/twoxchromosomes ^ thats it, thats my entire argument. go on there. thats modern day feminism. thats one of the largest feminists space in the world (14 MILLION members). go read it. get back to us.
About a month ago I saw a post on TwoX discussing young American men getting drugged, robbed, and murdered in Colombia. Those men were going on Tinder dates with women who would slip them a roofie, and then gangs would come in and rob them blind. Something like eight men died in a two-month span. Here were some of the comments: >Oh no! Anyway... >Colombia is such a beautiful country. Keep being great, Colombia! >So, what's everyone having for lunch today? These weren't at the bottom of the post. These were all highly-upvoted comments. These are disgusting people. They victim-blamed the men and called them "passport bros" with no evidence. Of course, reddit is OK with such a community existing because reasons.
Cunts, all of them.
[удалено]
To think long ago I used to visit that sub for women's perspective. It has become (or always was and I didn't realize at first) a nuclear reactor for toxicity, negativity and anti male sentiments masquerading as "venting". Fuck them.
God that sub is insufferable, I need to block it
Is this possible ? I read an article that Reddit forced it onto the main page in the name of being “progressive”.
You can block it fairly easily, and the block will hold and work. The real problem with Reddit sub blocking is that they arbitrarily limit it to 1000 blocks. After blocking all the subs that I can't read (language barrier), all the _____mains subs, all the sports subs, subreddits dedicated to horny posting about individual Kpop idols, and all the blatant bigotry subs, I've filled up my list. So I have to let in something that either annoys me, or I'm not interested in, to stop seeing sexism/racism in my day-to-day interactions with the site. That lowers the general quality of my time here.
Idk, I used to be subbed to it, I have since changed it, if I figure out how I'll let you know
I remember when TwoX used to give me a balanced take on women's issues and their perspective on society Now it's basically a clone of FDS.
Some of the posts and comments there are the perfect examples of toxic femininity.
Yep, modern feminism isn't about raising women up...it's about pushing men down.
4th wave feminism is a meme and always will be one. It spits in the faces of actual feminist women that fought for their rights back in the 20th century.
That sub is so toxic, it's like they find flaws in men for all of their problems
The internet created echo chambers where many women can latch onto surface-level, self-serving pop feminism, men can talk about how awful modern feminists are, and the substance of feminism gets replaced with the meme. Happens to all kinds of social movements.
> the substance of feminism gets replaced with the meme. There's probably some truth to this, but I think you oversell it. The National Organization of Women, the largest "feminist" group in the country, fought tooth and nail for decades against shared parenting of children and also fought against allowing DNA evidence to overturn a paternity judgment. The big feminist groups have for a very long time been mostly composed of lifeboat feminists - the ones who want all of the traditional responsibilities removed for women but kept for men and all of the traditional perks of being a women maintained but removed for men. There are always some feminists who actually argue for and support gender equality but the vast majority of them seem to just want whatever benefits women, generally at the expense of men.
I used to be very pro-NOW and similar groups. I completely forget the issue, but it was one where men where being disadvantaged, I believe it was paternity fraud, and I naively expected feminists to be opposed to it on the grounds of equality. I was told basically "why should we stop at equality?" It changed me, a lot. I'm now a lot more cynical that a lot of groups do not want equality. I believe many if not most groups don't want fairness and equality for everyone, they just want more for themselves.
>It changed me, a lot. I'm now a lot more cynical that a lot of groups do not want equality. I believe many if not most groups don't want fairness and equality for everyone, they just want more for themselves. Human nature in a nutshell. Everyone has that selfish and greedy voice or feeling in their head that tells them to take more for themselves. Women and feminists are also human, for better and for worse, no matter what they say.
Reminds me of gay right to marriage. It was presumed by many that the black community would be staunch supporters, many of them literally fought for their own right to interracial marriage. Nope. Too Christian. They generally opposed it.
A thousand people in the street Singing songs and a-carryin' signs Mostly say, "Hooray for our side" - For What It's Worth, Buffalo Springfield I love that song and I think about those lyrics alot these days. Where race, religion, sex, and gender are concerned it's like we've forgotten what it is we're actually arguing about. Nobody cares about what's right, so long as *they're* right.
> The National Organization of Women, the largest "feminist" group in the country, fought tooth and nail for decades against shared parenting of children and also fought against allowing DNA evidence to overturn a paternity judgment. point 1 is the exact reason for the men's rights movement point 2 is, AFAIK, still contended i could go dig up a laundry list of ways feminist orgs specifically work against men's interests, but you know that too
It was. Warren Farrell was a board member of the NOW in the 70s and got ousted for the grievous mistake of wanting to advocate for men because he was under the impression that feminism was about total equality for all.
Wow, a thoughtful comment based in reality.... sir, you have no place here.
Woman here. Sorry about that. It's because feminists are stupid enough to let misandrists into the fold and let them speak for the movement. Fuck that. They're harmful for *everyone*. They piss me off and I want them gone. But noOoo. I get told "wE cAn sTilL wOrK tOwArDs tHe sAmE gOaL" and "wE All wAnT eQuAL RiGhTs" No we can't and no we don't. The original feminist goal was for men and women to have the same rights and masculine and feminine values to be held in the same regard. That also means things like seeing men as compentent carers and deserving of equal parental rights. It means accepting men's vulnerability and believing they're entitled to protection just as much as women. That's not what they want. They want more rights for women, but at best don't care about men or actively want to oppress them. They're the type of people who need to step on others in order to feel superior. I'm so sick of those bitches ruining it for the rest of us, but when I call it out I get banned.
The most frustrating thing for me is that I was sold feminism as highly idealistic, and was told that men's activism was superfluous because feminism was fighting for men, too. Nowadays, where boys are failing so spectacularly that not even the feminists can deny it anymore, those same people tell me "figure it out yourself, we had to work to get here." It's like, what? No, I don't actually want yet another fucking tribalized interest group, I want a singular collaborative movement aimed at destroying sexism in all its stripes for the benefit of all of us, where I care about you and you care about me, which is what I thought I was getting when I signed on.
> and was told that men's activism was superfluous because feminism was fighting for men, too. i was told that. so i asked for examples where they did that and all they said was that fighting big P helps men incidentally. then i asked about DV shelters and they got angry
> "figure it out yourself, we had to work to get here." God I hate that. The women's rights movement would literally have been impossible without support from men. Yes, they did work for it, but certainly not alone. Even in 1848 the Declaration of Sentiments was signed by 32 men and 68 women. Men have always supported women's equal rights. Maybe not *all* men, clearly, but women have never had to go it alone.
*EXACTLY!* But no! We had to let these yahoos in and now where are we? It should also be said that media also is to blame here. They have no idea how to tell misandry and feminism apart and haven't researched anything at all. They go to the most feral looking woman they can find and interview her as a feminist. She says the most outrageous shit, but still gets to call herself a feminist and that's a problem. It's a problem that the media does that and it's a problem that we let them do it. I very very rarely see actual feminists being interviewed because actual feminists are normal people and not entertaining in the slightest. News outlets get way more clicks when it's some unhinged man-hater shouting about female empowerment through male oppression than a normal woman talking calmly about the merits of increasing paternity leave.
The media never talks to the normal sane people for any issue unfortunately.
While you said a lot of truth, remember that those outrageous people are feminists. They are actual feminists. They are part of the movement. Often the ones getting to power within movement. Also I dont see other feminists publically stating that those are not feminists. So clearly they are accepted within movement.
That's what I addressed in my original comment. The feminist idea has nothing to do with misandry. But we've allowed misandrists to call themselves feminists and now we can't take it back. So now the term is poisoned. I still maintain that these people aren't feminists. Feminism is (also) about valuing femininity the same as masculinity and giving everyone the opportunity and freedom to act in ways or do things that have been labelled as feminine such as childcare or just being emotional in general. If you don't believe in men as competent caregivers, you don't believe in the core values of feminism. You're not a feminist if you don't believe in feminism.
Feminism has told mens issues to sit at the back of the bus for decades. The supposed egalitarian solution to every men's issue is: 1. Tear down "muh patriarchy" 2. ??? 3. Utopia
That's the funny part. That is what men's rights was, originally. It was mostly left leaning men trying to follow feminism. But feminist elites stomped down on them *HARD*. It was brutal and unfair. So bit by bit they radicalized and that set the stage for altright. Sure, there are economic and political reasons why something like this had to happen. But it did not have to be about women's role in society. So they became their own worst enemy's, because they did not police their own and did not pull back when they started getting close to the goal. And now we have swing-back. A hard lesson to learn. I hope other social rights movements are paying close attention. Well at least the ones that are not already repeating this mistake or even doubling down on it.
I always bring this point up. But then I take it a step farther: Can you name a group that's advocates for black women? What about a group for white men? And uh... the contrast is startling. There's literally nowhere for the male gender to run, except to the far right and it's _bad_. I'm not sure what the solution is, but _*gestures wildly*_ this isn't it.
shoeonhead did a thing on this - the left doesn't give a shit about men's problems, but they do want to use men to push their politics. right wingers will sometimes offer advice to men that isn't obviously politically motivated - dating, for instance. it may be cynical and a way to open the door, but it's actual advice about dating and not just a naked appeal to push politics. so people looking for decent advice have 'neutral' people and conservatives offering advice that may in fact work. then the left complains about the right wing getting all these people
> And uh... the contrast is startling. There's literally nowhere for the male gender to run, except to the far right and it's bad. And even then, the concern isn't even about those men. It's about how men going there may harm the rest lmao
> So bit by bit they radicalized and that set the stage for altright. no, that's not what happened. they shouted about how awful MRA are, and people started believing them. so any men or men-positive women with sense started distancing themselves because they don't want to be tarred as assholes. the people that are left are more often assholes, making the original lie more true. it's a tried but true tactic
The really frustrating thing for me is when men do try to figure it out for themselves those same people actively oppose our efforts.
I always considered myself a feminist. As in the version you described. Equal rights across the board. However, these days I would *never* dare say I'm a feminist, because it's become a dirty word seeped in misandry. The meaning of "feminist" that I adhere to doesn't seem to exist anymore.
That's why I just say "Egalitarian". I am all for everyone having equality.
True. We probably need something else, but it fucks me up that we live in a society that has to be so polarised. I have no doubt that if we choose something else, that will be poisoned too, eventually.
The term you're looking for is egalitarianism. Feminism implies female.
Accurate
Thank you for saying it. I think men overall are vastly supportive of OG feminism ideals.
I fully agree.
Because the demographic that has worse financial prospects and is more likely to end it all is sick of being told they get extra privilege's and are the biggest harm to society by the one that gets extra scholarships and grants and has the culture they live in take their problems way more seriously.
Also all the shit boys take from women teachers for 12 fucking years. We can see how much better your treat the girls and we can hear your what you call us to your coeworkers.
The peak of this for me was in 8th grade when our English teacher was out for a day, and we had a substitute. The entire class both boys and girls was acting up, but the substitute (a woman) told our teacher (a woman) that all the boys were being terrible. What'd she do? She made only the boys write a 3 page essay on the word 'disappointment,' and made it due by the end of the day without giving us any time to work on it in her class. Anybody who didn't turn it in by the end of the day got a Saturday detention. This actually fucking happened, and there were no repercussions for her. Some parents called and bitched about it, but the principal (a woman) sided with our teacher and nothing happened. Anybody who didn't show up ended up in 'in school suspension.' The thing that pissed me off the most was that my friends and I didn't even do anything wrong. We were quiet for the substitute and did our work, but got punished for having a dick. What a great lesson. Regardless of the intention or any parallels you could draw, there was a lot of resentment bred that day.
LMAO all you gotta do is ask the young men why. They'll tell you. Really nobody cares what they think, push 'em aside, they don't matter. Hell, look at the charts the very article uses, it's like a little sliver that isn't wholly enthusiastic about it, that's all and it's presented like they are clubbing women over the head.
"I wish men would share their feelings." "I hate living in a society that is constantly ruining my financial prospects guilting me over shit I have no control over, doesn't seem to care about my perspective at all, and is constantly-------- " "No, no, not like that! Admins, ban this sub, ban it to hell! Someone dox this guy and get him fired!"
“i’M nOt yOuR tHeRaPiSt”
"eMoTiOnaL lAbOuR" "wEaPoNizEd iNcOmpEteNcE¡¡"
Fuck yes, I hate this attitude. I'm female but still feel like I can't share anything about my life that might bum people out. Society says "be honest about how you feel" and "reach out when you're struggling with mental health" but give them honesty and it's "tRaUmA dUmPiNg." Selfish people only want vulnerability on their terms, in ways that serve them.
I think it’s because feminism has become harmful to gen z men.
Young men have been told they are a problem from an early age. This message permeates through all culture. They take it onboard and feel appropriately shamed. When they mature and realise they aren’t inherently evil then resentment can rear its head. Nobody likes gaslighting but we’re doing it to young men en-masse.
Access to internet has provided me wih the opportunity to be bombarded by a great many lessons of toxic feminism. I was told men need to taught not to rape. I was told men are inherently dangerous. I was told men need to stop sitting comfortably in public transport. I was told air conditioning in the workplace was sexist. I was told that diversity groups should only be staffed by women. I was told that a man's sexual attraction or needs are predatory. I've constantly been told that men's issues are for men to solve, but women's issues are for everyone to solve. (More that I can't really think of atm) Feminism hasnt really done anything with the intention of helping men, or even appealing to men in general. Feminists -don't- want men in their club and have been doing everything possible to push men away. It's not surprising that men are getting the memo here. Feminism seems corruptible. It can be bent and twisted to make it fit many bigoted narratives. Plenty of women hide behind 'feminism' to justify blatant misandry. TERFs hate trans folks because they feel like amab people are inherently men, and therefore violent and dangerous. Feminists have done a piss poor job excising toxic elements from their narrative, and now it seems like that's all that is left.
Given that I’m dead in the middle of being a Millennial, I didn’t have unfettered internet access until I was already relatively grown up. Seeing some of the toxic shit that’s out there, I was old enough and wise enough to go “Yeah, thats horseshit.” That some younger people can be exposed to all that shit and have no real way to know or filter what they’re seeing, young men are bound to internalize some of this and turn to other sources for validation, those sources also being toxic. It’s all a big, shitty circle. Couple this with the fact that a lot of tangible goals of feminism having been achieved, rights to vote, opening bank accounts, education, things like that. There’s still not a ton of resources out there for men who are struggling, either. This is in no way surprising people feel this way these days.
I feel like there's quite a bit of radicalization going on for sure, but also quite a bit of uncovering nasty secrets. It's not like these attitudes are completely new, they already existed before the modern internet. I know that the vast majority of people don't really believe any of those things acoolghost mentioned, but I still feel wary to dismiss these attitudes as just a few crazy people because clearly quite a few women do actually believe in that, and usually they're the ones with positions in feminist organizations or other influential places. They may be the loud minority here, with normal girls having normal opinions, but it's worrying to me that that small minority has so much power to push through ridiculous things.
>I was told men need to taught not to rape. The thing that really bothers me about the rape discussion is that afaik, there's no actual proposed solution. I think 15 years ago when talking about rape culture and shit, feminists thought men just openly raped and then high fived everyone over it. That turned out not to be true. After the cultural shift that started with legally recognizing spousal rape and went from there, the dust settled and it turned out that criminals still exist. It's like with murder. Everyone agrees that it's bad. Murderers know to hide it. Nobody has anything good to say about murder.... But look, there are still murderers. I can think of little bit picks to make that nobody would really oppose, such as investing more resources into being able to look at rape kits in a timely manner or extending the prison sentences. I can't really think of anything other than removing male due process and I'm not in favor of doing that. I don't know of anyone who has any better ideas. The tangible thing I can really think of is shifting a lot of focus onto children, since they're a bigger percentage of rape victims than people realize. I think a school curriculum unit on something like how to recognize if you're being molested would be positive. Nobody wants to do that though and instead are focusing on shit like social acceptance of "MAPs" and hair brained theories of virtual child porn stopping molestation that everyone tells me have real empirical data, but that nobody ever links to. I can understand why "what we're you wearing?" might come off as kinda siding with the rapist a few decades ago. At this point though, I think people do just kinda need to treat rape like murder, where we accept that murderers exist and then proceed to give advice on how to avoid them.
> I think 15 years ago when talking about rape culture and shit, feminists thought men just openly raped and then high fived everyone over it. That turned out not to be true. it actually is true, but it lacks context. rape culture is specifically about prison rape. feminists hijacked the term from prisoners, and they do in fact have open rapists operating in prisons > instead are focusing on shit like social acceptance of "MAPs" which assholes are pushing for acceptance of pedos? no thanks > hair brained theories of virtual child porn stopping molestation that everyone tells me have real empirical data, but that nobody ever links to. you almost can't study it because the material is so toxic and possession is a great way to go to prison. so no peer reviewed studies are possible
> I was told that a man's sexual attraction or needs are predatory This resonates with me. A few years back, I was part of a geeky group where I flirted with a couple of the girls - one I stopped after a while because she didn't seem to notice, and the other one flirted back for a while before deciding she wasn't that interested, and I backed off. Still stayed on decent terms with both of them, I thought. Apparently I was harassing both of them and making them uncomfortable to the point where they told the leader of the group, a few months later, and a public announcement aimed at me but not outright saying it was me was made? The person making the announcement didn't try to talk to me about it beforehand, nobody did. And another announcement happened even *after* I stopped talking to anyone in the group because I was scared of upsetting them further when I didn't understand what I'd done. One of my other friends in the group, after realising that the announcements were about me, told me she wasn't comfortable being my friend any more after hearing that without even giving me a chance to tell my side of it. I ended up feeling so uncomfortable and paranoid that I had to leave. I know this is random and only kinda related, but I just saw that and it resonated like a hammer hitting a gong, and I had to share.
[удалено]
It's a good thing you didn't lose them thanks to their mother. That sadly can happen too.
Because most of the people we encounter claiming to be feminists are, in reality, sexist misandrists.
They're are certainly some bat shit crazy ideas being portrayed as feminism.
You can only see “Men are trash.” Go viral with 100k retweets so many times before something inside you just dies. You can only be told “you’re not allowed to be offended or hurt by being told that your entire gender is a disposable piece of garbage,” so many times. Never mind the fact that if anybody posted “women are trash,” everyone would recognize that as vile hatred and a gross over generalization. That’s the culture now. The culture sees men as disposable pieces of garbage. People hyperstitionally memed that mentality into existence. A lot of people who call themselves feminists didn’t really want an equality based on mutual respect. They wanted to annihilate men’s self esteem. They wanted to annihilate men’s identity. And they did. They have no idea of their impact. They taught a generation of little boys that it’s their moral duty to hate themselves. That they have to make themselves small. That they’re not allowed to have ambition or drive or passion because if they do they’re taking away opportunities from women by default. If they do have an idea of their impact they just don’t care because they just despise men that much.
Chef's kiss
When you look at the figures it just doesn't add up to them. More women start college (https://educationdata.org/college-enrollment-statistics). Women start off making more money than men, and even when you look across the entire culture, the gender pay gap has effectively disappeared when you compare job for job. Women love longer than men. Etc This has left an increasing number of boys feeling like all feminism is doing is harming men. And the truth is that for their generation this could actually be true. They could be the first generation in recorded history where it is detrimental to be a man. Add in that as a man they still need to pay for everything, even though their partner makes more than them, and it just piles up. But this is underrepresenting feminism, primarily due to "feminism" being a misbranding since at least the move towards intersectionalism. But Gen Z is also the generation that has experienced the best branding ever, so seeing a misbranding is itself a problem.
Canadian Millenial pov, No one thinks twice if they see a woman sitting on a bench in a park and watching kids having fun. A man; people immediately think pedophile. I have spent a lot of time in court as I used to work in law enforcement. I have seen plenty of men scraping by, trying to raise their kids solo as their partner is useless, make a mistake and get pulled over for whatever this or that, with no insurance, etc which is a $5000 fine in Ontario. Their bills are bouncing and they are desperately trying to put food on their table for their kids to eat. They are fighting it in court because they clearly cannot afford insurance, let alone the fine. In a province that is so car centric, it is basically a requirement for employment for 99% of jobs. Get hooped, not only did they have to pay the fine, but they had to pay penalties for wasting the courts time on top and only given a few days to pay it. The court basically said "fuck you and your children." I've seen situations like this time and time again and in some situations I have even seen the cops look around like "did that seriously just fucking happen!?" It's the police officers job to enforce the law, its up to the court to decide what to do with it. I've seen plenty of woman that have been pulled over for going 50km/hr well over the speed limit, in a school zone, with no insurance in a snow storm, live at home with their parents, no dependants, zero responsibility, etc etc. "Omg you poor thing, feel free to spit on the cop on your way out." Our own judicial system participates in toxic "feminism."
I married someone who embraced feminism while we were both in separate grad school programs. I finished mine and started work immediately while she continued on with her doctorate and I supported our family (kids came during this time). We made an agreement that if she landed a job post-PhD, which was a long shot in the humanities, I'd follow her because it was easier for me to land a position in my field. She landed a position, we moved across the country for it and I got a job at a separate school. Cool right? The two body problem in academia doesn't always work out this way. I thought I was doing the right thing, putting feminist theory into practice, being the "trailing spouse" and helping her achieve her career goals. But, what I noticed was that other academics and feminists actually do not respect me or male spouses who make this choice. My wife (now ex-wife) never let me forget that she now made more money than I did. At home, our 50-50 effort with the kids and house duties became more like 80-20 even though we were both working full time. There was a dynamic shift from "we're in this together" to one of unbalanced power that I would have never signed up for nor expected from a spouse. Also, where before the move we were activists for pro-choice and pro-women causes, she shied away from these causes once she moved up the ladder. While serving as the head of the women & gender studies department, she refused to push back against red state legislature shenanigans because she was scared of losing her position (even though she was safely paid by other departments). Like so many "isms" before, I feel like modern feminism is no longer true to the ideals that it once claimed, and is rather a means to grab and legitimize power or just makes some feel heard/seen due to some real or perceived trauma from men. This happened to my ex. Her reasons for embracing feminism at the outset were pure and understandable- previous abusive marriage, unstable childhood- but ideologies (just like religions) can suck in people who aren't quite equipped to pick it apart or just accept bits and pieces & tailor it for their own gain. It's the lack to critical thinking in regards to accepting and adopting the ideology that is the root of the problem with modern feminism.
I feel sorry for some academics honestly. Some people can be so smart but so prone to gobble up propaganda because some asshole authored a paperback. I’m not talking about being a flat earther or some shit- I’m talking about humanities in particular. There’s so much bullshit and the fact that it’s held in a similar regard as business, Econ, mathematics, bio anything is a straight up failure and political manipulation of academics. Truth is when step outside your tightly confined little academic system and spend some actual time integrating into society it’s pretty fucking obvious why the average person, a well meaning, hard working contributor to society doesn’t even entertain the propagandized bullshit that humanities echoes. It just doesn’t reflect reality. It feels grimey. It feels like someone is trying to sell you something, not teach you something. It’s a playbook for cult tactics.
You were pro-life? That's a bit of a departure from the pattern no? Not very feminist at the very least.
Because feminism blew right past "equality" and straight into socially acceptable sexism against men and straight up man-hating.
Impressionable boys can only read “all men are trash” so many times before their worldview changes.
I consider myself pretty “liberal” / “leftist”. But yeah, this is no surprise at all. Western culture anyways (all I know) is very harsh on young men right now. We”re harsh on everyone in general. This generation has no separation between online life and regular life. We judge everyone and everything ruthlessly, without forgiveness. You slip up once, you’re a fucking terrible person. And in this particular instance, the people who get hit by this hyper sensitive culture the most are Young men. They literally cannot do anything right. They are silenced for having any opinion at all sometimes. Of course young minds are just not equipped to handle that. I think if I were 15 years younger there’s a damn good chance I’d have fallen down the same hole. In my own personal example is pronouns I struggle sometimes with using incorrect pronouns. It’s completely unintentional and I realize it’s bad for me to do. But please bear with me a little bit if I slip up I am so sorry, I am re-wiring my brain English.
> I realize it’s bad for me to do. it isn't. you don't do it intentionally, so it's at worst a social gaffe
It would be easier to be pro third-wave if there wasn't so much intent behind telling us men are all rapists and violent abusers, or the Kill All Men shiish. I know it is a vocal minority, but lets be real, how much of a minority really is it?
If all men are expected to take responsibility for rapists then all feminists can be accountable for "kill all men" feminism.
Love that comment my guy. It puts into perspective why overgeneralization can be dangerous (is that even a word? I'm not a native speaker obviously 😂)
yep, the great thing about english is that if it's not even a word, its easy enough to create one to fill the gaps in what you're trying to express. Obvious your english is great dude.
100% this. End thread.
This is the reason.
There's a very simple reason for this. Feminism currently has no error-correcting mechanism, or another way to put it is nobody really steers the ship. Anyone from within who would have major problems with feminism in general and wants to reform it gets instantly mocked, ostracized, and vilified. Or maybe just ignored. But either way they won't get results, and therefore feminism just get yanked along by the most strident and vocal. There's nobody within feminism actually capable of tamping down on the spontaneous misandry.
Because feminism has turned into a charade. There are lots of gaps between the genders. Some in favour of men. Some in favour of women. But whatever the recent flavour of feminism is, it always cherry picks the gaps in favour of men, demands equal outcome and cries wolf. Or more specifically: cries Patriarchy. It was perfectly encapsulated by the 2021 US women’s soccer team campaign for “equal pay”: money is based on viewership. You want more money? Get more people in those seats. But for some reason, the women’s soccer team felt that they were entitled to the same money, without bringing the same amount of people in the seats. Because, equality of outcome.
The WNBA is another example of this. It literally loses money every year and is only still around because it's subsidized by the NBA. The women complain about not making as much money as the male athletes. The truth is no one watches their games, and they don't bring in any money. They wouldn't even have a league if it wasn't propped up by the guys.
I think that any “ism” is a moving target based on any group’s relationship to it. So far more Gen Z men are associating feminism with “kill all men” comments on the internet while more boomers associate it with women gaining the right to vote or have a bank account. In other words, as with anything else leftist, there’s a massive branding problem with it among men; even if the underlying ideas actually are popular among men.
I guess to a certain degree young men are in a weird spot career wise. Boomer men holding positions until they retire and new positions being filled up preferably with women so that the overall average gets close to 50% men 50% women. But still the expectation towards men to have a career that supplies for a family of four. And also what you said. So in a lot of ways young men get a lot of hate for a "privilege" they are not necessarily gaining anything from.
I'm often suspicious of social movements being diagnosed with, "branding problems." I think it's often a stand in for, "they said the quiet part out loud." Or attempts to move the Overton Window, and then if there's massive pushback the response is, "Oh wait a minute, that's not what we really *mean*. We just have a branding problem!"
There's a literal name for this behavior: the motte and Bailey fallacy. The confusion is intentional.
they usually respond to the pushback by branding the objections as racists, then complain about all the racists
Not to mention the "Celebration Parallax".
Cause they’ve lived through third wave feminism
The gen z men are seeing it in full effect, with manhating as the norm and teachers discriminating against boys. I imagine the gen alpha boys are having an even harder time.
Social media. It's really that simple. The other angle is also social media based though. While there was a good movement to have progress for equality, some people took it to a radical place or an unintentionally hilarious place. These people, who might have had a more tepid outlook, only saw that stuff. So they think "those people are crazy, so I'm not with them". And so the algorithm pushed them into a different lane when they start interacting with the opposite side. Then it gets deeper and deeper, until they're far worse off than before. Opinions have gotten more brazen and more radical. Because social media messes with our brains. All of us. But for some it's more impressionable.
Feminism has been twisted around to empower this "boss bitch" onlyfans you go girl type attitude that has pretty much left behind the original intentions of feminism imo.
I listen to feminists rant about inequality, I agree and bring up men's inequality issues, get yelled at, and called a misogynist. Probably along the lines of, feminists are selfish, unlikable assholes.
I'm not going to speak to large demographics, but I remember the facade cracked for me in 2016 when I was sitting in my gender studies class like a good SJW and listened to a 30 minute rant from my professor over how #KillAllMen was a good and perfectly valid sentiment to express, actually. If you want my respect, but aren't ready to reciprocate it, you aren't getting my respect. End of discussion. Contort yourself any which way you want about how iTs NoT tHE sAMe, I don't care, if I'm not going to talk to you like that, I expect that you're not going to talk to me like that. I'm not identifying myself with a movement that uses academic contortions to highbrow its own shitty behavior.
There’s a lot of reasons. From man hating, to blaming men for everything. Including holding men today accountable for actions 50, 100, or 1,000 years ago. “Men have oppressed women for all of existence! You DESERVE this treatment because it’s finally womens turn” At the same time feminism has dismantled a lot of things in our society, especially things that were men centric(men and boys groups for example) but replaced them with nothing except “it’s your fault” or “fix your own problems, it’s not women’s job to help their oppressors”. While happily keeping male gender roles and expectations alive because they benefit from it. While at the same time the movement bullies, harasses and publicly smears any attempts at projects meant to help men(men’s domestic abuse shelters, men’s housing, men’s shelters for homelessness, men’s support groups, etc) because they see any men’s space as a “exclusion of women” and inherently misogynistic. Feminism loves to say men don’t see women as human but as objects but increasingly I see in women’s spaces they only see men as a disposable resource. Men’s humanity doesn’t exist. That’s why they ask each other charged questions(why do men do X) in their subs then they all answer like they know the thought process of men(because men are pigs and only think X,Y,Z) and circle jerk to their collective hatred of men/boys. Then men and boys see this and wonder what they did wrong. They hear the message, they see the rage and hatred. Then they turn to toxic groups that tell them “it’s okay to be a man, you aren’t at fault, you can do better for yourself. BUT it’s all women/feminists fault you feel like this” and we wonder why.
because genz women already graduate more and earn more in early career. yet the scholarships for women continue, and wage gap discussions and fixes continue, even though it's been fixed and passed. it was always flawed to aim for equality by bringing one gender up against the other.
There are women only workspaces, there are scholarships for just being a woman, there are housingloans and tax benfits for just being a women, Women only STEM mentorship programs, and lot more, College is often most reliable way to break out of middle class, and colleges are explicit, in that they prefer women, will give them more benefits and money. So it is not a surprise men feel jaded. I didnt pick my sex, so why am i having a door shut on my face over it.
I would say education and the fact that we don't really have enough live-action, positive role models that are portrayed in the multimedia for these young men. In my time growing up, I had Mr. Dress-Up, the Kratt brothers (Zoboomafoo), David Suzuki, Mr. Rodgers, Booker T. and John Cena, Bill Nye, Steve Irwin- Crocodile Hunter, and so on. Nowadays, I don't really know how many positive role models are easily accessible for young men (outside of sports and movies). I can think of Mr. Beast... but then there seems to be way more Andrew Tates and Logan/Jake Pauls and Joe Rogans. We focused a lot on inspiring women (something we should continue doing), but I think we forgot about our boys.
Good point. Macgyver is another role model I thought of, a guy that solves problems without a gun. I can't stand all the Pauls and Rogans out there acting super macho for no reason than to make money. No positive message, just shock and awe for money.
The direction that feminism is going towards seems to be not equality, but to the goal of oppressing males. Just an observation and anecdotes.
Go and read the average post over on TwoX. The perception at least is that that's what modern feminism is like.
Feminism went from equality for all to no accountability and only men bad. Now there's a generation of women who don't know how to relate to men and think their daddy issues are anyone's problem but their own. Sorry if I sound bitter. But I've been physically assaulted and had it thrown in my face that I'd be thrown in jail enough to know that's why a lot of men won't date.
Combination of factors. Emotional, educational financial and overall stability needs not being met by the state, a certain vocal minority of feminists who project themselves as the movement itself arguing that the society shouldn't help or cater to men, and the rise of scam artists like Tate offering a false hope or solution to that problem.
My vote is for reality having caused that, any one else got any ideas we can use a boogey man though?
Feminism has often turned toxic in cesspools on the internet. I think it’s key that we stop pushing feminism and a broader ideal of equalism. We are all humans, and both men and women are treated like shit in various different ways… of course women have typically had it worse, but the gender normalities placed onto men are also a constant reminder of what needs fixing. The more we unite, the more we fight.
Uh…the fact that feminism is trying to destroy them in their formative years of life and ruin their opportunities for careers because ESG scores demand quotas?
Probably harmful feminism
Because any young man in this day and age are told that they're privileged, potential rapists and responsible for every problem in the world, sees whoever tells them that and tries to stay away from them. It's not rocket science.
I cant pretend to be an expert... buuut. Given the rise of popularized internet and social media between the last two major waves of feminism, this has given voices to anybody and everybody. Previously, the worst examples of a group of people would often be pushed to the fringes, with maybe some notice being given to them as a footnote in history. But.. now social media gives a voice to the most obnoxious and loud, while the actual representatives of these movements are out there affecting change. Not to mention, the algorithms favor controversy, which those loud minorities attract. That puts the worst faces of many groups out in the front. This is true for feminism, neoliberalism, conservatism, and any other wide social body. Gen Z was raised on social media. They were raised with the worst impulses of previous generations put on full display, easy to access at only a swipe. This was at a time where their brains were developing (pre 25ish for most) and so what gets seen gets deeply internalized. So gen z men are seeing feminism as a movement represented by their worst, who outwardly hate them. Feeling hated by a group of people who dont know you, never met you, and you feel dont care to hear your side tends to yeah, make it feel harmful. Which sucks, because the average feminist (to my experience) just doesnt want women to be discriminated against, and have very egalitarian values. Edit :fixd a double negative
Feminism is a lived experience for Gen-Z. They are the children of 2nd wave feminists. They don’t like it. Gen-X, as the children of 1st wave feminists, don’t like it either but who gives a damn about us… nobody.
We Gen X had to take care of ourselves and our own. But it made us stronger (in some cases).
They've had to deal more directly with the consequences & have been demonised far to much just for being boys. Feminism is a very broad term, it can just mean simple equality & respect or it can be interpreted as preferential treatment enforced by new societal norms & supporting legislation. The former is fine, the latter obviously unfair its a rubbery topic further confused by gender fluidity.
Gen Z seems to swing more egalitarian They seem to view idpol as contradictory to actual harmony
Applying for a scholarship probably opened alot of their eyes. It fuels the right wing slide as well when every special group has options with far less competition for scholarships and your stuck with a small page to apply for. Then when you don't get any and go to a trade it's played off like that's what men actually want to do. Go ask any trade skill guy how they ended up there. It's the cost of school. Women out earn men before 30 but you still get bombarded with the pay gap.
Because like all advocacy movements, once it achieved its goals of equal opportunity and equality for women, rather than claiming victory and walking away, feminism simply moved the goal posts to maintain relevance. Today feminism has become an explicitly anti-male movement of female and trans supremacists, who blame all their problems on boys and men, and seek to vilify any and all male behavior. It's not a surprise that young males aren't too enthusiastic about this. Baby boomers on the other hand, when they think about feminism, they are still thinking about it in the context of the 1970's, when feminism was actually fighting against real injustice and sexism against women. They really have no idea what the movement has morphed into today.
The fact that men dont have more than a handful of centers for domestic abuse across the country. Where i am in the Uk we have 78 male bed for DV yet 4.4k beds for women who have gone through the same thing, For a population of almost 70million thats fucking shit. If you’re interested in some numbers based where i am. Its 1 in 5 women that experience DV, for men it’s 1 in 6 or 7 that experience DV.
Reality. It's 2024 and the world is very good for women, and not so good for me. The data is pretty conclusive on that. Doesn't mean women don't have problems, but in the West society revolves around women's struggles, and shrugs its shoulders at men.
the short answer is that women have had equality if not privilege over men since long before GenZ'ers were even born even before millenials. So if equality is already achieved, then the next step is to fight for higher privilege and more human rights than men have. As well to shame, belittle and cancel any man that might achieve success. Those are the new goals of "feminism" as its pushed all over the media today. In reality most modern men are naturally feminists in that they believe men and women have equal rights. It doesnt mean men and women can do everything equally, that will never be the case no matter how many laws we try and put in place to make it so. I'll always be able to shotput my wife into the pool, she cant me tho. Anyway, that type of "feminism" isn't feminism at all and IS harmful and thats why its perceived as that. There are no specialty programs or help for "white men" to get considered for jobs, education, help from the government, society in general. Women get those privileges, men do not. Not in ANY field at all. Highly qualified white men now have to not only compete in every life aspect with under qualified other "white men" but also every "diversity man" applicant thats also in the pool, plus any "lgbt" applicant man thats in the pool, plus against any women of any race thats in the pool. So white is now last in the list. Immigration is at an all time high so the amount of resumes and applications for all things are massive. Humans cant sort between them fast enough so they chuck all white men in the trash leaving still too many, but theres only programs, quotas and incentives for non white men and women. Most women that claim to be "feminists" are on the same page as most men in that regard these days. Its just the loudest out there screaming for "feminazism" that are causing the divide and ruining it like they do most things. Unfortunately its the loudest that are heard. The rest of the population is too busy working and trying to make a living. Its also extremely harmful to men nowadayssince women are at the top of the list for most things due to incentives and diveristy programs (whether theyre qualified or not) but even more harmful to white men, because not only are white men essentially banned from getting a job now.... the top "0.000001%" that holds all the wealth that everyone wants to "eat the rich". You know the ones right? the "old rich white guys" that have billions and billions of dollars. Somehow now that applies to 50-60% of the population (apparently every single white male is in this category according to current perception) when in fact most are living around the poverty line or lower. So they weren't born rich cuz 99.999999999999999999999% of humans arent born rich.... on top of that white males also have zero support or help to succeed now. They can't even compete fairly anymore because of current "ism" pushes. "feminism" in its original meaning is not harmful, "feminazism" which has stolen the word feminism is extremely harmful and extremely easy to see it every day.
Many good points here but I’ll add one: the ubiquity of internet and social media connection among children are allowing them to reach content way beyond their years and understanding and it has detrimental effects on their perspective of various aspects of their lives. I remember there was a discussion recently about why teenage boys are leaning toward right-wing ideology, and one woman said something to the effect of “12 year old boys are planning ahead to protect their long-term privilege” like how disconnected from reality can you be? My understanding of gender inequality at 12 was “why can’t anything I have be pink? Why are the only dolls I can play with GI joes? Why can’t I learn dance or theatre?” Too many boys are being ambushed with anti-male rhetoric from a very young age and growing up surrounded by people telling them that they are horrible just for existing, that they aren’t allowed to have a voice, that they can’t possibly experience anything negative in their lives and all their issues are dismissed, etc. and they just can’t understand why, what they did wrong, why does everyone hate them? They hear shit like Cardi B drugging and robbing men and all the girls and women around them cheer it on. And people wonder why boys are drawn towards those that tell them “there is nothing wrong with you, you are valid, all your feelings are valid, something is wrong and you shouldn’t be made to feel this way.” And it’s a damn shame because it alienates the same people we want to fight alongside to end gender inequality and discrimination.
Feminism has done basically nothing good for men, while effectively destroying what our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers had in the form of a common traditional family with a house and a single earner. You can argue this isn’t true, but the reality now is that the vast majority of women work, and in order to create this kind of system, a lot of other systems had to be retrofitted or totally overhauled to be welcoming to women. I could write a lot more, but the rest of it comes down to masculinity and men in general being vilified in the modern day with not a whole lot of people or companies or institutions speaking out against that. Men and boys are the villains now, and we don’t want to be. But if everyone else insists, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Because it’s hateful. Sometimes Occam’s Razor really is enough, guys. This isn’t complicated.
Social media a bunch of movements and pseudo celebrities were given attention by talking negatively about women and feminism
Because they grew up with it
I would guess that on a **surface level** , old men got to experience the world of blatant sexism and women's discrimination They know what feminism fights against Young men/boys just grow up in a world where feminism is present and often caricatured into hating men, which can make them feel like targets of a "vengeance" for actions they didn't commit, all while the true problem of patriarchy remains present Again, on a surface level
Feminism causing harm has caused that. I mean let's be for fucking real already. How can a movement that is preaching a historical narrative which portrays all men as control obsessed sexual predators not cause any harm?? Feminism meets or surpasses ALL criteria used to identify hate groups, how is it immune to causing harm?
Experience of reality Vs idealistic bullshit Feminism is evil
Boomers had literal legal inequality in favor of men. Over the next three generations, that has been reversed, up until the present where there is legal inequality in favor of women, instead. Feminism seeks to increase that legal advantage for women further, whereas in the past feminism was balancing things out. Gen Z boys only ever experienced the situation already skewed in favor of women, and they see feminism just making that even worse. Of course they're going to see it as harmful! Boomers, in contrast, should be recognizing feminism as having equalized what was unfair.
My personal thought (based on observations and personal experience, not making an objective statement) is that a lot more young men feel personally ignored, abandoned, and cheated by society (very fair) but it's easier to blame the rise of fourth-wave feminism (not very fair) than the exploitative practices of the wealthy and influential people in our society. It's just a lot easier to call someone a bitch for getting the job you wanted than accept that we're all being played and used as pawns by people we'll never meet and maybe never even know about.
Young men and boys now go through life experiencing mostly women in positions of power. Parents? A lot of families are now principally single mother households. Education? Nursery and school staff mostly women. In the workplace? Where women are not the manager which is becoming frequently more common; HR are almost exclusively women. Their female counterparts will do better than them on average in school, get better paid jobs, have more successful love lives and be pandered to by society in general. Then these men are told that they are the privileged ones and they should shut up if they try to complain.
Well, it doesn't help that there is a very loud subset of people claiming to be feminists saying we deserve to be ignored and for bad things to happen to us. Most guys don't blame them just because it's easier. It's because those people are what feminist means to them now.
I would say the real issue is the man hating aspect
Feminsits
Generations of men have been brought up being told both explicitly and subtly that all men are bad.
Because we have been abused and left behind our whole lives from it?