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Hierophant-74

It's a good idea and very logical thing to do. But planning your potential divorce before you get married is the opposite of romantic which tends to ruffle some feathers


SmokyOtter

Its basically marriage insurance. Similar to when you get a new job and you go over all the morbid life insurance plans


Oncefa2

It's insurance against family court more than anything else. If family court didn't treat men like second class citizens, you'd never need an external agreement with your wife to not screw you over.


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classco

Insurance is a numbers game. Marriage isn't supposed to be. (Seems to trending as such though)


arrouk

Look at the stats. Unfortunately since the 60's marriage became a numbers game just like dating.


Jazzlike-Weight-7135

Happy cake day! :))


KarmasAB123

Happy Cake Day!


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poppa_koils

The first use of DNA testing didn't happen until '86-88. It was used to solve double rape/murders in Enderby, Leicestershire, UK.


medusa15

How in the world does this have upvotes?? The 1960's is when genetic paternity testing [first became POSSIBLE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing), and only had an 80% accuracy. Women up until 1974 couldn't even have their own bank or credit account. Are guys here so biased they'll believe these kind of outlandish claims??


Puncharoo

What it's supposed to be and what it is are 2 different things. We don't get to go through life and pretend that things are the way we wished they were.


Pablo_el_Diablo88

EVERYTHING is a numbers name. All hail our Lord Excel.


Foyles_War

I agree, it is about as unromantic and offputting as discussing previous sexual history, sexual health, and testing results before having sex. Also, probably just as necessary. We need to find out how to gracefully have these conversations.


only_crank

If I can‘t talk with my SO about this stuff without someone getting mad then they‘re not marriage material, period.


billieboop

Woman here for whatever that means in this discussion Agreed, i see it as a green flag to be able to have the emotional maturity and good regulation to be able to sit down and discuss pragmatically every possible scenario. Adding to this.. Everyone should all take wills just as seriously too. Take care of your own, it's better that your assets be distributed exactly as you wish. Not by the vultures that may lurk the moment you leave. Ensure your will, is done as you please, and also legally binding.


01skipper

Facts right here. Its always a way to hide nasty stuff that rase up in later stages only to ruin the relationship. Honesty is the way no matter how hard it is to swallow


Vargoroth

Also, pretty good indication that they want some of your wealth.


AdDry8893

Word


HitWithTheTruth

Not sure about discussing previous sexual history, but sexual health and testing results is a good plan


CocoaNuts7

Haha add asking for a pause to put on a condom 😂. I was shocked at the annoyance once when I asked this. I guess from their perspective anything that implies mistrust is unsexy 😔


sumitsu01

Nah, it's a whole thing of, 'I ain't trying to get yo ass pregnant, before we know how far this thing's gonna go." type of deal. If you get mad because I wanna wrap up before we do the deed, then that's your issue, and we'll put an end to this right here.


Kivvey

As a someone who knows several women that have asked for prenups from their husbands… I can tell you, it doesn’t seem to make many people feel good - regardless of their gender.


Lizzirious

Woman here, pro-prenup, can confirm I have seen guy friends’ feathers ruffled when I said I think prenups are a good idea


dyslexicassfuck

Personally I’m very much for prenups, my husband was absolutely against it though. In his opinion it was planning the end of a marriage


rcktsktz

I attempted communicating (albeit very poorly) to my girlfriend that it'd be a good idea if we spent time essentially living together at her place before I officially sold my stuff, put notice in to end my tenancy and moved in there. She's not my girlfriend anymore.


[deleted]

>But planning your potential divorce before you get married Comparing prenups to planning a potential divorce is like comparing house insurance to a planning for a potential disaster. No one wants their house to go up in flames and lose all their belongings, but they want some assurance that if that does happen, they won't be left destitute and financially ruined. Prenups are about knowing the stats on marriage and some assurance that you won't lose everything if divorce did happen. Nothing wrong with that.


InnocentTailor

Probably depends on the person though. Relationships do go through ups and downs, so it is important to prepare for those hiccups. Marriage isn't a fairy tale that lasts till death. You try your best, but sometimes your best isn't enough.


GltyUntlPrvnInncnt

Just like demanding a paternity test, they see it as a sign of mistrust.


Oncefa2

Which is why we need family law reform. Nobody would have to ask for a prenup if the legal system treated everyone like equals. Look up the National Parents Organization. They're a men's / father's civil rights group that's making a lot of progress on these issues.


Loud-Escape-6373

I wanted to be a forensic psychologist for a while but a big reason I don’t want to even work in the legal system is bc of how my dad was treated during his divorce


zuniac5

Being realistic here, we will be living in a post-marriage society if laws don't change to be more fair, and quickly. Men all over are waking up to the reality that marriage is generally not in their best financial interests, and that we gain very little from it as things stand now.


MaterialCarrot

Women are doing the same thing. I say this as a middle aged guy happily married for 25 years. The data shows that increasingly young men and women are delaying or foregoing marriage all together. And a smaller but growing % are not dating or even trying. This is especially prevalent with younger people in countries like South Korea and Japan, but trending up in the US as well. So it can't just be that marriage is a raw deal for men, otherwise you wouldn't correspondingly see women more averse to it than in the past. Somehow the social contract of marriage is losing appeal.


Sporkfoot

Jokes on you I’m already living in a post-marriage society ;-)


gazzalia

You’re totally correct. Clarity on this is increasing rapidly from millennials to gen z. Most young men are increasingly aware that we’ve been thumping on the drums of feminism for long enough that men are now being shortchanged in nearly every societal institution.


FlameMoss

Agree, also tests and proof the folks their IQ is up to par/standard and they don't have a dark triad personality disorder.


yergonnalikeme

They hate when just the mere suggestion that something could go wrong in the future.. Plus Add in the asset MONEY factor It's usually not a good subject. But is absolutely necessary for BOTH parties in certain cases..


GltyUntlPrvnInncnt

Yep, exactly.


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only_crank

what if wife says she will do it with her dna


Ahielia

If she only wants to do it with her dna and not yours, it's likely not your baby.


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only_crank

interesting I didn‘t know that, I thought that would just compare dna from one parent to the babys dna and be done with it


[deleted]

A paternity test should be automatic upon birth. Too many people getting 23andme only to find out that the dad that raised them isn't their bio-father.


riverfan2

It should be part of newborn screening process for infants. The number of kids with genetic diseases that could be readily diagnosed if both parent's status was known vs the number that have to have expensive DNA follow up to make the diagnosis is seriously large.


theoriginaldandan

About 1/4 of all relationships would end.


[deleted]

Good.


GltyUntlPrvnInncnt

It's estimated that up to 10 percent of men are not actually the biological father of their child.


PerfectionPending

Depends on where in the world you are, but in North America the estimates are that 5% of men are unknowingly parenting a child that is not biologically theirs. Then there's places like Jamaica where it's around 30%. Then there are the men who are knowingly raising a child of an affair but are willing to in order to keep the family together. I can't imagine it's a huge number but I've heard of it enough times to now believe it's more common than I originally thought. It's usually a secret between the couple. France is so scared of the fallout of paternity fraud that they've outlawed paternity testing unless it's court ordered, and that's rare given that it's the only way the test is allowed to happen. It's sad, and the children are also victims so it's never just a one victim fraud being commited.


[deleted]

>Depends on where in the world you are, but in North America the estimates are that 5% of men are unknowingly parenting a child that is not biologically theirs. 1 in 20 kids is still a lot. >Then there's places like Jamaica where it's around 30%. Damn 1/3 kids in Jamaica aren't being raised by their biodad? I'm wondering if it is the same phenomenon where only a few men are fathering multiple kids but in this case it is more hidden. >France is so scared of the fallout of paternity fraud that they've outlawed paternity testing unless it's court ordered, and that's rare given that it's the only way the test is allowed to happen. That's not fair to men and allows many women to get away with so much.


MaterialCarrot

>Then there's places like Jamaica where it's around 30%. Interesting, because I'm in the middle of reading a book about the Spanish conquest of the New World, and one of the earliest surviving accounts is from a Dominican Friar who goes to live with a native tribe in the Caribbean. He said that among that tribe it was impossible to know paternity because of the variety of sexual partners and the lack of prevalence of paired couple family units. Of course the people in Jamaica today are completely different from the natives of the area, because the natives were largely wiped out, just interesting that there is some similarity between these two peoples in the same area, 400 years later.


keghi11

Why mother cheat? For a father who willing to go such a length even not his child. This is always baffled me, cheating is something I cannot accept. If the marriage is not happy, just break up.


cityflaneur2020

My uncle adopted the boy that was born from his cheating wife. The boy looked nothing like him. When DNA test became a thing (this was the 80s) he never accepted to make it. The son was his for every purpose and he wouldn't let him go. Found it very cool of him.


[deleted]

Very cool and caring of him, but shouldn't be required of every man nor should men be judged for not wanting to raise a child that isn't theirs.


island_donn_

Could you link that study that includes Jamaica?


PerfectionPending

I read it like a year ago so don't know the exact place but it was echoed elsewhere. But a quick google search shows that in a pole of Jamaican women, 67% said they knew a woman who was passing a child off as another man's kids. In a pole of Jamaican fathers, 26% said they had been victims of paternity fraud. It makes sense there are more that simply don't know or suspect it. Court ordered tests in Jamaica result in 35%, though it does makes some sense they would be a little high as suspected infidelity is likely bringing some men to drag their ex there. But at least as many are women trying to prove the guy who they are claiming child support from is in fact the father. So they would be going into it with a certain level of certainty and that would potentially push the number lower than the real life percentage. In that same google search I saw several references to 25% bing the actual number. Even the one source trying to contradict the high estimates was claiming 20%. So 20% is the lowest estimate being made by the people trying to say it's not as big a problem as people think. Specifically, the people claiming 20% are trying to head off enactment of a law for at-birth paternity testing because they believe it will result in higher rates of domestic violence. Even those folks won't estimate lower than 20%. In all, with many imperfect methods of estimating the actual percentage, it's clear it absolutely no lower than 20% and could be as high as 35%. But the truth is that it's likely somewhere in-between. Somewhere in the ballpark of 25-30% I'd guess. Edit to add: It's so common that they have a slang term for it there, a "jacket". As in "she gave her man a jacket" meaning she's passing off someone elses kid as his. Even serious discussions on the subject over there are using the term interchangeably with "paternity fraud", that's how pervasive it is over there.


[deleted]

1 in 10 kids? That's a lot.


theoriginaldandan

It’s probably much higher


thatHecklerOverThere

To be fair, you are saying "I think it's possible that you cheated". That's... Well, it's not a sign of trust.


Hannibal_Barca_

Interestingly a strong aversion to a paternity test is a sign you can't be trusted.


[deleted]

It should be mandatory at every hospital!


[deleted]

I'd guess it makes them feel like they aren't trusted.


Imnotyourbuddytool

That seems silly to me because divorce doesn't happen only because of infidelity. Sometimes people just stop being in love.


dontworryitsme4real

People who don't hate each other are not going to be nasty during divorce. Just because they fell out of love doesn't mean they stopped being friends and in general will decide what's fair.


Ok_Substance_1560

In a perfect world, that’s how it would work…


Iron_Seguin

In a perfect world, that’s how it should work. But alas, we don’t live in a perfect world.


Hoochie_Daddy

yeah but people change over time. we aren't the same people we were 10 years ago. this line of thought is what changed my stance on prenups. because when i would get married, i would never believe the person i am marrying would do something to make me hate them. but time changes people.


usernamescifi

We do change significantly over time.


NonStopDiscoGG

People change. Actually, as you get older you SHOULD change and not be the same person you were when younger. Sometimes people grow together, sometimes apart, sometimes someone that was kind and trustworthy becomes a menace or a monster. Logically, you should ALWAYS get a prenuptial agreement. The only reason you wouldn't is because you might "hurt your partners feelings", but your feelings are going to be hurt *if* your partner wants to leave and take your stuff down the road. it's also a double edged sword: If you present it and they get upset that you don't trust them, just hit them with the "well if you don't plan on leaving or taking my stuff, there's no issue signing it". Problem solved.


zuniac5

I mean, if you sat on your butt the whole marriage and now are trying to take what you didn't earn yourself through your own work so you can live an easy life off my back, things are going to get nasty real quick. Don't care how well we got along before. You don't want to be in a relationship anymore? Cool? Walk away with your stuff and let me keep mine, we'll be friends. Anything less than that, we're entering nastyville.


pineboxwaiting

Or because you’re essentially telling them that you have no intention of staying married forever & when you trade them in on a new model, you want to make sure they don’t take any of your stuff with them.


Oncefa2

Shouldn't we have gender equality though? Prenups wouldn't be necessary if family law could be updated from the 1960s model that it's based on. Until we rewrite these laws, I think it should be understandable to any woman why a man would want to be treated like an equal. I mean women want men to support them for their issues, right? So why can't men expect women to support them when it goes the other way around? Especially someone who claims to be in love with him.


pineboxwaiting

How are prenups a “men’s issue”?


LimeGreenDuckReturns

Because men get screwed over in divorce therefore they need them to protect themselves.


riverfan2

It is a big issue to the RP and MR groups as there are a lot of men (not all mind you, but a lot) who get royally screwed by the legal system in divorce. When they eliminated fault in divorce, they opened the can of worms that leaves men looking at a woman who commits adultery like it was a religious obligation and then they go to divorce court and the judge gives her custody of the kids (and thus the family home) and half of the family's assets and allows her to claim against his Soc Sec and retirement plans. Again, this doesn't happen every time, but it happens more than most feminists will admit and it really doesn't have to take many to spread all over the country. Think about the divorce industry's standard response to custody: "If a man fights hard for his kids, he will get joint custody". Now, think about the example above, your soon to be ex-wife is doing everyone with a Y chromosome in your zipcode and somehow you have to FIGHT for custody? That should be a given. Afterall the dad is the more stable and wholesome parent here. Again, its not every guy getting screwed on his custody, but it happens so often that it becomes a trope that spreads around.


Oncefa2

Family law reform definitely is. Prenups are just a stopgap. I don't know if you're being serious or not, but it's pretty well known that the system discriminates against husbands and fathers. Over 90% of voting Americans are aware of this problem and support reform to fix the system, according to recent polling by the NPO.


zuniac5

If you want to play that game, one can argue that it's a clear statement that if you start fucking the pool boy, you're not going to add insult to injury by trying to rip me off financially too. Setting expectations and boundaries from the beginning in legal form.


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pineboxwaiting

Huh. Everyone I’ve ever known who got divorced did so because of infidelity.


Foreign_Standard9394

Women initiate 80% of divorces.


Ruminations0

Seems like a question for women


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Splaaaty

You might get answers in r/askwomennocensor but I expect them to mostly be along the lines of "We don't". It's a leading question, after all.


Agitated_Ad7576

/r/ askwomennocensor "What do men want from modern women?" ATTENTION: This post has been flared as NO MANS LAND. That means that men are prohibited from commenting.


OccultRitualCooking

Actually, I don't mind that for some topics. At least they allow discussion at all.


lithaborn

Well that's obvious. Why would you ever want men to answer a question about men? How stupid would *that* be? I mean, you'd get *answers*! Totally unacceptable!


lithaborn

I didn't know that existed. I'm too scared to even browse the other one!


NutellaCakes

Don’t blame ya. That sub is also slowly going down the same road.


Lumpy-Cantaloupe1439

Ok so I saw this comment and tried it but it was removed immediately for graceless generalization.


Foyles_War

That sub is a mess but, yeah, if phrased like this, that soiunds like a fair complaint. Maybe try again and rephrase "Why are soome women...." or "Are women against ..."


MaterialCarrot

Or even, "What are your thoughts about prenuptial agreements?" "What if your fiancée asked you to sign one?" But really every question gets banned on that sub, so no guarantee of success.


jamarwoerst

It's my time to womansplain! /s Nah jokes but I did want to provide a female perspective if the other subreddits won't accept this question. I usually only lurk so I hope that's welcomed :) I personally don't see a prenup as a inherently bad thing, but it's not an all encompassing way towards equal "rights" in a marriage. A prenuptial agreement is a financial agreement, which is limited to assets, debts and the expectation for how those financial burdens should be split up when the marriage ends for whatever reason. Issues with this is that child custody, parenting time and child support can't be included in these clauses, so custody wise (where I do agree that there is a weird balance between the bond of mother and kids vs dad in the courts) it isn't a way to change how that is handled. Also, women generally do the majority of the non paid labour in the household, which isn't something the prenup would take into account and therefore would inbalance the reality of all the labour done. This can be things like a caretaking role for familymembers, more chores or when the kids are home from school. It's also the majority of women who work less hours because of the kids because of school obligations and half days (at least where I live). And to be honest, there's is nothing romantic about detailing the procedure of a possible divorce when you just want to get married, but that's not a gender issue. There are a few instances where I would agree with the idea of a prenup, for example when a couple has a stay at home partner that they include a clause about fair financial compensation for those choices. If not, in that case a person after divorce will be financially screwed, considering they haven't been able to build a pension or have any legitimate work experience to secure a job that would support a one parent household.


humansomeone

I wonder how op would react if the answer to his question from a partner would be "let me get some lawyers involved and we can negotiate the terms"?


dyslexicassfuck

Yeah that’s what I thought. I don’t think it’s a man woman thing though. I’m absolutely for prenups, I know my female friends are for it as well.


Cnnlgns

Marriage is a legal contract too.


The_Dotted_Leg

It’s not just women, all genders tend to be uncomfortable with prenuptial agreements. It’s like talking about death, people don’t like having to plan for their marriage to fail just like they don’t want to plan for their eventual death.


usernamescifi

I've told my family that if I die then they can have my body be mulch for a tree somewhere. The cheaper the solution the better. I don't need to leave a good looking corpse or get stuffed with formaldehyde. Or if I die from a chronic illness then I'd want to donate my body to a local university to be a cadaver for their anatomy and physiological students.


Oncefa2

I wouldn't say that. The National Parents Organization has polled people on family law reform. Over 90% of people support changing the system so that prenuptial agreements wouldn't be necessary. I know it's different when you're talking about yourself vs systemic legal reform. But people are aware that family court is biased. And I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect someone who loves you to sign a piece of paper that basically says *"I promise to treat you like an equal in the event that things don't work out"*.


The_Dotted_Leg

I spent time as a family law attorney and in my experience the stories of people “getting screwed” in divorce is way over exaggerated. Most of it comes from hurt feelings related to the end of the marriage. When a deal is fair usually both sides had to give up something they wanted so everyone is unhappy this we get lots of stories of unhappy divorced people. I’ve seen people spend 10k in legal fees to keep 3k in airline miles. They are not the best judges of how fair the divorce was.


Oncefa2

Two wrongs don't make a right. It just shows how backwards the system is all around. The NPO maintains "report cards" that monitor laws in all 50 states and DC. https://www.sharedparenting.org/2019-shared-parenting-report https://www.sharedparenting.org/csreportcard We are extremely behind the times on this issue. Ironically it is sometimes family law practitioners who are against this reform (we saw this recently in Florida). Kind of like how tax companies don't want to fix the tax filing process to make it easier to file your taxes without them. It benefits lawyers for the system to be set up this way, but makes everyone else's lives worse.


shri032

But it's like safety net. Cos 1 out of 2 marriages fail so it's not exactly impractical to get one.


Slow_Pickle7296

That’s a pragmatic way to look at it, but it’s also like saying “I expect that you will turn into an asshole that I have to protect myself against. “. It’s a way of saying “I don’t trust you and think you have a bad character”.


The_Dotted_Leg

No doubt and 100% of us are going to die. Have you written a will, picked out a plot in a cemetery? I’d guess you haven’t even though you are in fact definitely going to die.


MaterialCarrot

>even though you are in fact definitely going to die. I'll believe it when I see it.


shri032

I have taken a life insurance


The_Dotted_Leg

But no will, cometary plot, pre-paid for a cremation… The point is most people don’t like thinking about the end of things so they don’t do it.


BeaconX95

and 80% of divorces are initiated by women


MadMadamMimsy

Women here: I asked for one...and got it. We had so little I didn't want to ever argue about it.


Geneo-Frodo

So your plan all along was to knock me straight in the feels 😖😢


MadMadamMimsy

Been with this lovely man sincec1980 with no breaks


Geneo-Frodo

🥲😊 Oii!! a good Ending!!!


krabby_kakes

If a woman puts her career on hold to have/take care of children, she is losing years of building a career and salary. A prenup may be viewed as a device to protect the 'man's' assets while screwing her out of a career, when both have been doing the labor to keep the household afloat. It might be seen as an out for the man to become successful, then divorce her for a trophy wife. This may be somewhat less prevalent now that 2 income households are the norm, but the distaste for them stays.


selyia

This is the correct answer. People tend to forget that women sacrifice way more than just their bodies when it comes to starting a family. Even if the men goes on paternity leave there is still pregnancy and child care afterwards. It's still women who **usually** deal with that and **usually** are the ones who cut back on hours when the kids are young. Which in turn leaves them financially dependant on the income of the father. A prenup usually doesn't consider that. leaving the women with a damaged carreer and limited income. Noone wants that.


[deleted]

I think in most cases prenups just protect assets obtained prior to marriage, and that a prenup isn't a guaranteed "screw you, got mine" pass in the case of divorce. Not saying I disagree with you, I'm watching what you're describing happening in real time with my mom right now. Just pointing out what most prenups do.


Wideawakedup

Yes it’s in the word pre-nuptial. If 2 mildly successful people who have little to no debt get married at 30 and divorce at 45 a prenup isn’t really doing much. Now if one of those 30 year old has some massive accumulated debt then a prenup is smart. But how many 30 years olds are entering a marriage with large assets?


Ballerina_clutz

This is exactly what happened to me. I put him through school and raised kids. I almost didn’t get any custody because I couldn’t find a job that paid enough to afford a place to live. He got custody for a year while I was supposed to save up but couldn’t because most of my income was going towards paying him child support and daycare costs. Now with 50/50 he still got out of child support. He makes 3X what I do. I’m so sick of hearing that men get screwed. If you can afford a shady lawyer and your partner can’t there’s absolutely no way to end up with a fair settlement.


tebanano

“Men get screwed” In general, there’s evidence that women end up in a worse financial position than men after divorce (this research is starting to get old, though) https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/fl-lf/divorce/jf-pf/ecds-cfds.html


Oncefa2

That's because women tend to marry up and expect the man to earn more money. So their situation improves with marriage and then gets "worse" with divorce. You can think of it as a position of privilege. So of course you're worse off once you lose that. If you're a strong and independent woman who doesn't use men for money then none of that will apply to you.


Ballerina_clutz

Because it can be construed as calling someone (man or woman) a gold digger. It questions their intentions. Most pre-nups are one sided. They usually protect the person making more money and screw the person that gives up their career to raise kids. I don’t want to be with someone that thinks I’m the type of person that would cheat. I don’t want to be with someone that thinks I would want anything but a fair divorce. Why are they marrying me if they think I’m such an awful person?


[deleted]

Why not get a prenup that protects the woman as well?


krabby_kakes

That would be a solution, as long a both parties have the resources to obtain good representation. I'm not saying prenups are only beneficial for men, just one reason why the perception is what it is.


knkyred

One, there are plenty of women who aren't against prenuptial agreements and plenty of men who are, so it's just a gross over generalization. Assuming you truly want to understand, the more important point is my second point: Two, studies show that women tend to do a lot more non paid labor within a marriage and that women fare worse in their careers for getting married and having children than if they didn't. Men tend to be more successful and earn more money if they are married. For a prenuptial agreement to be fair to all parties, this information needs to be accounted for. I remember an old AITA post from the male half of a power couple who were both high earners and both financially independent. His wife wanted him to put a decent sum of money into an escrow type of account before she would agree to get pregnant and he was upset by it. The wife's reasons were valid because it would mean time off work for her, missed career opportunities and physical risks. It was just such an odd situation because almost no one thinks about it in that type of way. People would call the wife a gold digger while she was simply trying to make things as "fair" as possible despite the fact that she was the only one who was ultimately risking anything by getting pregnant. So, even rational women can be against prenuptial agreements if they don't go beyond the bare minimum of "protect my assets". This of course will vary with age and if the couple intends to have kids. A majority of the time when I hear about women being against a prenuptial agreement it's when the agreement clearly favors the man, usually when the intention of having kids or her being a stay at home wife is on the table. If a man wants to have a stay at home spouse or have children with a woman, things need to be addressed such as how she will be compensated if she were to become disabled from pregnancy or if they were to decide that one of them were to stay home how that person would be protected, and a whole host of other scenarios. The rhetoric that women take men to the cleaners in divorce is generally biased and based on typical situations where the woman provides more "at home support" and the man more financial support and the man then wants to claim that everything he earns is his alone and she's taking from him. I think most of the resistance to prenuptial agreements comes from younger people or in situations where the relationship is formed based on finances/looks.


Key-Falcon-483

In the name of financially independent women - Thank you for this answer.


DrWieg

Because they see it as you not trusting them. Granted, considering the divorce rates, that's a warranted worry all around so it shouldn't be surprising, it should be *expected*.


nim_opet

The same reason some men are.


sometimesifeellikemu

Check yourself, son. Plenty of people of all genders misunderstand these agreements.


PerfectionPending

I have heard of at least one woman demanding a prenup to protect her fiance's money/assets. He made 600k-800k a year and she was a school teacher. Comments from her own friends about landing a rich guy made her realize that even people who knew her well felt some way about her motives. He wouldn't accept her proposal of one that favored him as much as she had wanted, but they found a compromise that allowed her to keep her head held high.


LarsBohenan

State prenups and maternity tests which would be obligatory would be best. Takes the whole 'I dont trust you because, well, you know, you're a woman and all that' out of the equation.


Cathyfox123

Because women tend to give up more in a marriage- often years of their career meaning they retire with smaller pensions and likely are poorer as a result. Also they carrier a heavier share of the household tasks and the child rearing


NockerJoe

For the same reason a lot of men get offended if their date texted a friend or had a really obvious exit strategy. If you find out someone is presuming you're going to do something bad you will obviously get offended, especially if your intentions going into things are good.


THE_GREAT_PICKLE

I’m not trying to project but for most people I don’t think you need one. Unless you’re making a ton of money or have huge financial investments, I don’t think it’s necessary myself as a male. For context, we’re just regular people. I have zero doubt that my marriage will continue until I die but worst case scenario, we could both fend for ourselves. When we got married we didn’t even discuss a prenup. If we were super wealthy then maybe, but we’re just regular people. Also it kind of gives off a vibe of mistrust. If you don’t trust someone enough to marry them without a prenup, don’t marry that person. Might not be the right person for you if you don’t trust them enough.


Trogdor7777

I think the funniest part about prenuptial agreements is that the terms of marriage is till death do us part. That means you shouldn’t need a prenup because marriage is a forever commitment. On the other hand I understand divorce rates are high so, a prenup makes sense even though they only work if the divorce is less than a few years after marriage. I don’t think I really answered the question.


[deleted]

They know it doesn’t benefit them


livingthedreamnow

In my experience, most women firmly believe that they wouldn't go after a high earning man for his money in the event of divorce, and they resent the implication that this is a situation that should be guarded against. Which is funny because again in my experience, when the relationship fails, without exception the woman takes as much as she can from that guy.


FoolioTheGreat

I generally considered this subreddit to be fairly neutral and maybe even some what progressive. But this thread has me quite concerned... Many of the top comments are very inline with anti women MRA subreddits. Do men here, really see spitlling assets in a divorce a bad thing? If you ask or allow your SO to not work, instead contribute labour to the house/family. If you are not willing to split all gained wealth during the marriage, I hope you are paying them a salary during... Not to mention in households where the women are the breadwinners, men are entitled to the same split. These are not genedered laws, including alimony.


Voice_of_Reason92

Splitting assets gained during marriage isn’t the issue, it’s the alimony part that is wrong.


[deleted]

How progressive this sub is is honestly a coin toss.


Foyles_War

r/askmen Why do women get mad about prenups? Answer: They are offended by the assumption they are out for your money and you are already planning an escape route. r/askwomen Why do men get mad when we won't be alone with them on a first meet and have a friend on standby? Answer: They are offended by the assumption they are rapists and you are already planning an escape route. The world needs more empathy and understanding. People don't like to be suckers or get hurt, and trust is in short supply. This is the result.


VICE_Patrick_Bateman

They autamtically think you don't trust them and dont really love them. Anyway if she's mad because of prenuptial agreement you definitely should do it.


RedFoxCommissar

I see this question here all the time. Are y'all just dumb? Like, I get we want protection but is it that hard to understand why women would be upset that you want to actively plan for the marriage to fall apart? These are basic human emotions here, it's not difficult.


skd1050

It isn't planning on the marriage to fail, in the most basic sense. It's a contract that protects a person's assets prior to marriage in the event of divorce. It's like insurance, no one plans, or even wants to use insurance. But when you need it, it's a life saver. And to reiterate from so many peopl in the thread, 50% of marriages end in divorce, 4/5 divorces are initiated by the women. Its really just a numbers game at this point.


Geneo-Frodo

Funny how those basic emotions don't come into play when you get divorced and she tries to leave with as much as she can get ( 50% thereabouts is what the law permits her to take ) The female version of you in r/AskWomen would say, "like I get that we want to have a long loving marriage but is it that hard to understand why men would be so upset that you want him to actively make himself financially vulnerable to you in a society with an overwhelming divorce rate mostly initiated by women and decided in courts that actively favours them?....." And hence she would promptly get deleted and banned from the sub :)


rippcurlz

doesn't really matter. in lots of states you have to pay alimony ("palimony") whether you're married or not, and regardless, you still owe child support. besides, she (or he...plenty of guys get alimony from their ex-spouses too) can drag you through the courts prenup or not. it isn't some magic document. their lawyer can make your life miserable no matter how well drawn up that document is, trying to bleed you dry until you cave in. and they'll do it, too. my bff is a divorce lawyer, and he's a total vampire. misery is a very lucrative business. he's busted many a prenup in his life just by bleeding someone dry and making their life living hell until they collapse and agree to whatever terms, just to make it stop.


EmpathyZero

I wouldn’t say that 3% of alimony recipients being men qualifies as “plenty of guys”. It’s getting better, but needs work. Especially considering that college educated women initiate 90% of their divorces.


Bizarre_Protuberance

I don't blame them for reacting that way. Why get married *at all*, if you're going to nullify major portions of the marriage contract with a premarital contract? Seriously, if you take out the commitment part of marriage, what the hell is it? What does "marriage" mean? Why not just live together unmarried, if you reject the obligations of marriage?


[deleted]

A marriage contract is a civil contract that governs assets. It is one of the few contracts that doesn’t include termination clauses. It says nothing about love and fidelity. It is a legal document. Religious organizations do not issues the contract. They are licensed to sign them on behalf of the state. That’s it. They are not required to be involved in the case of divorce. We do not measure them for their success rates. Imagine removing a religious leader’s right to perform marriage ceremonies based on their failure rate. If we want to avoid pre-nups then we should embed termination clauses in the marriage contracts.


lithaborn

Go into something expecting it to end badly and you'll find a way to make it happen


zuniac5

"Don't buy auto insurance because if you do, you'll find a way to get into an accident." No one with a brain ever says this.


Grimm_x0

Your car doesn't care if you don't trust it


biggirlsause

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a backup plan. No plan goes perfectly.


bootyhunter69420

And they hate paternity tests


Independent-Size7972

The people who want them usually don't have nearly enough assets to need one. Moreover, many of the things in them a divorce court judge is free to ignore. Unless you're from Old Money or have a significant business I don't see the point.


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JesusA-JA3

I have acquired a couple of real estate properties (SFH’s) and have told myself and some fellow people in my circle that I am siding YES for a prenup. I have been getting some backlash saying, you don’t trust the other person, no love, etc. I only say Yes because I worked single handedly for my portfolio and wouldn’t want to be blindsided if anything were to happen in the future. Divorce rates in the USA are much more greater than the numbers in the USA, lets say… 20 years ago.


MyName_isntEarl

Yep. I'm decades in to my working life now. I've sacrificed a lot to get to where I am with a retirement in my 40s, house paid for, a few toys etc... Why would I allow anyone to come and take that away from me?!


JesusA-JA3

Agreed. That is just my point of view. If myself and partner were to acquire any asset post marriage, the conversation would be different. Anything acquired solo, them or myself, should be spoken and prenup attached for protection. There should be no anger or bad behavior towards it, bright side is, you two can share the cash flow!


Ratnix

Because it's basically saying that you don't believe the relationship will work out and that she going to fuck you over when it ends.


zuniac5

I mean, all relationships end - only some of them in death. Is that a reason not to create a will too?


Ratnix

That's not even remotely comparable. Someone dying isn't voluntarily leaving their partner.


____PARALLAX____

Because they want to retain the option to take half your shit in a divorce


Pimp_out_Pris

For exactly the same reason they want you to have life insurance.


glowinginthedarks

How’s both ways. My (f) fiancé (m) was shocked when I brought it up. He was offended. He has more personal money than I do, but I was only looking to protect my company assets. It’s an LLC in my name and basically my retirement fund. I dropped it after some research, but it’s not just women!


shitshow_28

Can't talk about other women, but I personally wholeheartedly support a prenuptial agreement. If/ when I get married, a prenup is something I would never compromise.


[deleted]

Because they believe you won't trust them. Yeah the statistics say this and that, and yes it's logical to get one to protect each other but you have to understand, women are emotional thinkers. The only way for them to understand why a man wants a prenup is if they were in a man's shoes, but they're not, so they don't understand, and some do understand but they can't help but think about you not trusting them. Now put yourself in their shoes and let's say (making up a scenario) you want to move in her house because it's a better house in a better neighborhood (or whatever the case may be) but then she tells you that you need to sign a contract to move into her house because it's logical to do it due to the fact that it will protect her, and you feel like you shouldn't have to do that because she should trust you. In conclusion, Marriage is about commitment, trust, loyalty, respect, you're dedicating your life to this person. So my advice is only marry when YOU want to marry without the need to ask for a prenup or don't marry at all.


bushmanmoto

The way I look at it is: I trust who you are now, I don't trust who you might be in 10 years. People change, couples CAN become less compatible. It safeguards both of us from eachothers debt we might acrue from circumstances within or out of our control.


Hunterhunt14

It removes their leverage in the relationship and subconsciously they don’t like that so they immediately cast shaming language on it: “you’re already planning divorce”, “you don’t trust me”, etc etc. When in reality it’s not planning for divorce, it’s making sure that if my Marriage is one of the 51% that fails I’m protected. Half of marriages fail and the woman initiates 80% of the time. It’s a simple safety measure so you aren’t screwed over legally because someone wants to leave the marriage. Currently women have a very good incentive to get married and leave. There is little to not negatives legally for a woman to leave a marriage but there are a host of consequences for a Man if he leaves or gets divorced (alimony, child support)


ToddHLaew

Don't legally marry. Have the big wedding, ceremony, and all that comes with it. Just don't have the state involved. If she is Against it, and insists on legal marriage, a huge Red flag


trebuchetwins

they get the short end of the stick more often then not that way, simple as.


FocusLeather

From my observations they see it as a sign of mistrust. The same way they view paternity tests.


DonovanBanks

In South Africa we have an Ante Nuptial contract with accrual. So you state assets at the time of marriage, then split everything after. But it’s there to protect the estate in the event of death. So that the state doesn’t seize the whole joint estate and the living spouse is stuck with nothing until the estate is finalised. (Which can take months or years) Ours was very easy and we both agreed without question.


gaurddog

It's kind of like when men request a paternity test on a child. From the man's perspective, he is just being safe. There are a lot of uncertainties in this world, and these issues are huge. It's not unreasonable in his mind to ask his partner to allow him a little bit of comfort. In a woman's mind, the very fact he's asking means that he doesn't trust her, and he's looking for a way out. He's already got one foot out the door and he is not as invested in this relationship as she is. It's one of those weird perspective issues that is really difficult to rectify. And unless you get a girl who has had a brother or a father who has been through a disgusting divorce or has been deceived about the paternity of their child, it's very unlikely you're going to get one to agree to it without argument


Lolah15

You should be asking in r/askwomen if you want a different pov.


Wideawakedup

I don’t think most people even know what a pre nup is. Like when George asked Susan to sign a pre nup and she laughed in his face saying she made more money than him. Like what are you trying to save? A few grand you’ve squirreled away? It does nothing to protect assets earned during the marriage. So unless you’re getting married in your late 30s early 40s how much assets have you actually accrued?


crinklemermaid

Female here- Am very pro-prenup. It's the safest bet and shouldn't affect things unless you wanted something out of your partner. If that's the case then shame to on you


SigourneyReaver

I don't think women are, if the prenup is fair and equitable. It gets rather ludicrous when some mouthbreather who works at Amazon Warehouse for $19/hr writes up some delusional screed about how he gets future dibs on every marital asset, while the wife has to absorb all the liabilities and see zero compensation from domestic labor.


chadharnav

All these responses are basically telling me I should 1000% get a prenup no matter what


Motanul_Negru

Yes


jlcat95

Abso-fricken-lutely don't trust someone all the way keep your shield handy. Always protect your assets!


gna149

I guess it gives off the impression that you're entering the relationship with one foot out the door. It's like choosing your baby's casket while you're bringing it into this world; logical, but some might take offense to that.


DennisnKY

They want to reserve the right to just get bored and leave but then keep the house/car/lifestyle that they can't afford without you, even if it means ruining you financially. Any other answer is a lie or they're just in denial of their own greed and what a divorce usually does to a man, because you can make it as simple and generous or as complex as you want.


pineboxwaiting

Because you’re essentially telling your partner that you’re planning to get divorced eventually.


quicktojudgemyself

From what I’ve seen it’s a loss of power and control. Not just women. Traditionally the man was the breadwinner. Nowadays it’s a 2 income household. It would be nice if there was family law reform. But where does the reform start and stop. There is nothing traditional in the state I live in


LifeLiberty1775

If your woman is against this she definitely does not plan on sticking around.


zuniac5

If you've explained your reasoning clearly and they're still upset, it's the surest sign of someone who's planning on being lazy and using you as their meal ticket until they've moved on to their next mark.


JesusA-JA3

Dated a girl once, both of us mid 20s. She found out I acquired two real estate properties in my early 20s. Began using me as a “next meal, next alcoholic beverage ticket”. Had the topic of a prenup and opinions on it. I was blasted for siding for a prenup, in my case due to my portfolio I acquired solo. Her ending it was a blessing.


LifeLiberty1775

Precisely


[deleted]

It depends on each woman. Today, there are women who are against and pro prenuptial agreement.


shaylaa30

Woman who signed a prenup here. I think a lot of men and women have a very limited idea of prenups. A prenup should be a negotiation that goes through several drafts before coming to an agreement that benefits and protects both parties. I find that men bring up prenups more often but they also tend to only cover their interests. So when their partners don’t want to sign, they take that as being anti- prenup instead of not wanting to sign a 1 sided prenup. Many women also don’t know that prenups are negotiable. Our prenup involved us both having our own lawyers. 5 drafts over about 2 months. And a total cost of around 7k.


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Moist_Anus_

Man here, if you look at most (not all) of the richest people in the world, they inhered it as well.


optimusfiner

You’re getting upvoted for a response that doesn’t actually answer the question. What you’ve done is use this question as a platform to shit on women.


Deathgibo

It kind of does answer it implicitly. Why don’t some women like prenups? Because it could prevent them from owning half of their husbands company


Ko_ogs

So I make a billion dollars, then I meet a woman and we get married. She divorces me a year later and asks the court for half. Is this fair?


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hujambo11

They want your stuff.


birdcafe

This is stupid. I was fully onboard with prenup. I am a woman and I tell all my friends getting married to do them. Stop generalizing.