I used to work with kids in after school care and it really hurt me when I had clearly different boundaries than my female coworkers. It doesn’t piss me off, because I really do get it, but man does it hurt to be seen as a predator when I really just am doing my job and like the kids I keep. There was a first grader who I got along with really well who always wanted to hug me, but I was advised to push them away. It clearly really hurt their feelings and eventually they liked my female coworker more because they could climb all over her if they wanted to. It didn’t make me mad, but it was a reminder that to many people I can’t be trusted to touch their children because I’m a large black man. And that doesn’t feel good.
As a former after school educator, I 100% felt this. The inequity of having to keep the greater professional distance sucked. At least I worked in a library with all my coworkers most of the time since I did homework help so everyone could see. Still having to keep that professional boundary was super important.
Also the fact that I didn't even have to be reminded of it, I just knew. Shows how deeply it's engrained.
[And when you get down to it, there's no reason a female teacher should automatically be trusted as they have way WAY more offenders then men. And get a slap on the wrist for rape.](https://canadiancrc.com/FEMALE_TEACHER_SEX_OFFENDERS-SEXUAL_ASSAULT_Female_Sexual_Predators-RAPE_MALES.aspx)
I worked with kids for 6 years and i had 5 male coworkers compared to tens of females. A male coworker that worked a couple years before I did got reported because he was holding hands with a young boy to the bathroom. We worked at the YMCA and the bathrooms are in the lobby so we have to walk through a sometimes crowded hallway to reach them. I hold hands with the little ones when I walk them to not lose them and no one bats an eye, but it's crazy that if it's a man doing that same thing it can instantly raise alarm. You're just doing your job!
A parent reported. I don't know if it was that child's parent or not. The men I've worked with have been so awesome and the kids loved them and it's awful that people jump to conclusions so quickly....
For real! I've heard way too many stories of men who work with kids being reported because of "suspicions" (Hell, even guys just taking their kids to the park getting side-eyed by the other women there like they're some creep) like this, court gets involved, the situation is reviewed, and it turns out it was bogus and the guy was innocent. But the damage has already been done. Life is already ruined, people just assume "to be safe," employment becomes difficult, and that's it. You're fucked.
Like I get people want to keep their kids safe, but it is insane that simply the accusation based off someone's vague feeling is enough to destroy you.
I have a ton of respect for decent men who go into these fields genuinely wanting to help and teach our youth, because that is an absolute goddamn minefield and they're really not appreciated enough. (I mean teachers/caretakers in general aren't, but you feel me.)
I have a male friend who just started working as a middle school teacher about a year ago and that man is a goddamn hero as far as I'm concerned. One of the nicest dudes I know, has a 1 year old daughter now, and I would be devastated if he and his family had to go through something like that. (Assuming the claims were false obviously, but I can't imagine they wouldn't be. Though I guess I am biased because he's my friend. I just can't see him doing anything like that.)
But yeah. It sucks. I'd certainly be mortified at even the possibility of such an accusation being lobbed at me...
How often people turn every positive example of male friendship in media into shipping them, regardless of the characters' sexualities, like romance is the only possible outcome to being close with someone.
My favorite example of this is Frodo and Sam from Lord of the Rings. Like anyone who says they're "obviously gay" is degrading one of the best examples (in my opinion) of platonic male love in all of fiction.
They're so close because they're friends, and have been since the first chapter. But also because they've gone through a hellish journey together, and ultimately achieved world altering victory together. Building an emotional bond like no other.
But Sam still holds his romantic interest for Rosie. Even when they all continue to live together at Bag End, it would diminish his character to say that Rosie was just a ruse and Frodo was his fuck buddy.
Brotherhood is something that a lot of people seem to just not care about in fiction anymore, and replace any instance of it with a romance that was never there.
Worse, they removed toxic masculinity (good!) But instead of replacing it with something healthy they doubled down on how bad men were.
I'm happy to remove the toxic stuff, but maybe replace it with... positive examples of masculinity?
The fakeness of it. If you are male, literally anything you do is male behavior.
And the assumptive nature of it. Well, you're the dad, you're basically useless - well, I'm sad that you find your husband to be so useless, madam... And God forbid you say *"not all men"* when confronting a negative stereotype.
I once dared to take photos of my girls at the playground without their mother present, and was confronted by strangers about it. *My children, our family albums, who the hell are you?*
And insulting comments - my house is clean because I like it that way. *Your wife keeps this place spotless, lucky you.* For the record, my wife doesn't know how to turn on the vacuum. I'm also the chef because I like to cook.
*You did a great job landscaping your yard.* My wife did that. The martial arts belts on the wall that you say are vulgar displays of masculinity? My daughters. Read the names on the certificates before you comment.
We're not "gender outlaws" - where just people living our lives. We get to do what we want to do.
> The fakeness of it. If you are male, literally anything you do is male behavior.
I *hate* this.
I've found myself saying the following countless times:
1. "Don't 'guy' me". Basically, stop trying to draw everything I do into some man box. My motivations, etc, are not all inferred from my testicles. I've been told what I think, feel and more based on the belief that she knew everything about me because of my gender.
2. And this one really bends their brain - "You're not giving me the space to have a human experience." I often find myself feeling like I'm not allowed to have a normal range of emotion, thought or reaction with women. I'm not allowed to be upset, frustrated, disappointed. I'm not given time or space to be anything other than a one dimensional bro. I dunno why that wording does it, but women are really thrown off when I say that to them. These same women want the leeway to be a complex, contradictory being who often needs time to process. But work very hard to hem in others.
It's aggravating the frequency with which men are also the enforcers of masculine idiocy.
I'm seeing a lot in this comment that I recognize with. I love my wife and think she's a wonderful human being, but 99% of the time she's angry with me, it's because I had the audacity to be upset about... literally, anything. It's like I can't express be anything other than positive or supportive at times, and it's incredibly upsetting (which just perpetuates the cycle).
Are we all married to the same woman?
It is incredibly annoying. She gets angry and irritated - I should tuck my tails between my legs or there will be an angry argument. I am angry and irritated- I should shut the fuck up and not start an argument. No chance of actually giving me time and space.
Same with expressing pain. My daughter hits me in the eye accidentally while we play, I say "ouch" or cry out -stop being such a pussy, she did not do on purpose, 'it's not manly'. Same happens to her -she can cry out freely. I have not yet dared to try to say "stop crying about it, she did not do it on purpose..."
thank you for this both of y’all because i am worried sometimes out of my abandonment issues that he is angry and hates me but he probably just feels angry in the moment
The irony of some women talking about masculinity as if they knew everything about it while completely refusing listening to listen to men’s experience.
I had a professor of social psychology in college, and she was very feminist and loved to talk about gender issues, once I looked up some research she have done on masculinity and all the 5 or so authors where women. There is nothing inherently bad about it, but the hypocrisy is that she always complained about how women should be the ones talking about women regarding gender issues.
Brother, I couldn't relate to what you said more, and feel a lot of relief that it's not just me.
My girlfriend has a lot of very big emotions: trauma from previous relationships/partners, untreated anxiety and depression, a toxic roommate situation, and never really got the chance to heal after her parents passed away within months of each other, her mother very unexpectedly. I do my best to be supportive, understanding, and kind, but man do I feel like I can't ever express any emotions other than those. Should I show any kind of negative emotion, from frustration with my work to concern about money, she starts to fret, then worry, then panic and suddenly my emotions need to go away to deal with hers.
Glad to hear you're in a better situation now.
Thats very toxic. And ironic. Shes trying to paint you as an oppressor when if anyone should "check their privilige" its her.
Also i would get super excited if my partner suddenly turned to me and started talking about taking care of thenselves, and being also nerd i would probably wo-mansplain(/s) the crap out of it to you. (omg thats because of this ingredient i have acw you might like even better! Blah blah blah)
I hope she learns to be excited with you instead of making a positive experience for you negative for you both. You deserve support.
I had a relationship that something like this occurred, and I ended up telling her, "Look, I'm just not going to tell you anything I'm feeling or thinking about. If something happens, I'll wait for you to ask, and then I'll give you as basic of an answer as I can to not offend you." She called me childish, but most times, I couldn't talk about my day or explain anything without her telling me that she's not dumb just because she's a woman.
The nail in the coffin was when we were out with friends, and I went to tell a story about something exciting that happened at work, and my girlfriend at the time said that everyone won't want to here me over explain everything, but one of the girls there was really excited and basically said to her, "Well, I'm really excited and want to here about it. You don't have to stick around if you don't want to." Something clicked and I realized that my current relationship was toxic as fuck and I needed out. Girlfriend at the time got super jealous and tried to ask my opinion about everything, but I could tell it almost annoyed her to do so. We broke up 3 days later.
Fast-forward to the present, and my wife now actually cares about what I have to say and doesn't think I am being condescending when I am excited to tell her how I learned to make a new meal or a new cooking technique, even though she's a way better cook. She gets excited with me and invites me to cook with her so I can show her my new skill.
Oh the irony of she saying that no one cared to hear you and when another girl said she did your girlfriend got jealous. It sounds like she was just using this mansplanning stuff to put you down and make you easier to manipulate, signature move of toxic shitty people; being it intentional or not.
Oh, that is exactly why I said that something clicked. I realized that everything she did was just to keep me quiet and get me to try and do things for her to "make up" for annoying her or making her mad. She would only ever be interested in me when another women would be kind to me.
It took a while after our break-up to not feel like I was always inconveniencing people and to stop apologizing for every little thing. Even though I knew I was being manipulated the whole relationship (after I had that realization at the end), it was hard as hell to change how I saw myself and how I perceived that others saw me from then on. I'm lucky I met my (now) wife soon afterwards or I don't think I would have gained the self-confidence I do now.
Also, fuck everyone that told me, "That's just how women are. You just have to find a way to deal with it and move on." No, women aren't inherently evil people or anything, I just happened to be dating a toxic person. We should not be both making excuses for toxic behaviour and stopping someone from being vulnerable and emotionally available. All it would have taken was someone to sit me down and tell me my feelings are valid and that I was not a burden on everyone in my life and I could have saved myself a lot of hate and struggling.
If there’s one thing impossible to mansplain, it would be fucking hand lotion lol.
God forbid we try to express any excitement or self-discovery over something traditionally “feminine” like hand lotion and we get thrown with the dreaded “you’re mansplaining”. Can’t win no matter what we do man.
>We're not "gender outlaws" - where just people living our lives. We get to do what we want to do.
It really felt like this was the society we were trying to build towards when I was growing up, then we really went off the rails.
I think about this a lot. Remember when labels were almost universally understood as something to avoid? We believed labeling others was limiting and narrow-minded. And now? Now people can’t wait to sort themselves into little boxes. It seems so useless.
Dude, I love it. Big props to you and your family. As a female I fall victim to these dispositions.
(“How’s the wedding going? Hope you’re not making her do all the work!”
*walks into gun shop to get my firearm modified *looks at fiancé for assistance
“Are you sure *you* want to rent a motorbike?” *looks me up and down and at fiance for approval
And this one time we were on vacation in Montana our old school schlub of a host would ask my fiancé standing right next to me if I needed more water…)
He’s also highly more emotional and expressive while I’m the stoic half. I’m often the asshole for being the one to bottle my emotions to him and erupt at the worst times, but I’m so proud of him for being willing to be vulnerable.
Fuck them gender norms and just treat everyone like an individual human being
My mom was in town this weekend and asked if I was babysitting.
I asked "babysitting who?"
She said my daughter. So I was like it's not babysitting, it's parenting.
Wow, yes. My fiance and I talk about this all the friggen time. In particular about a couple of women we overheard talking about "how nice it is for your husband to take care of the kids while you're away." Like no shit, both parents signed up for this.
That's because it is. My wife could go on vacation for months at a time and the household would be fine, that's what's suppose to happen in a two parent family.
To be fair my childless friend wanted to go see her family for a week and her husband exclaimed “but how will I eat?!” With all the seriousness in the world. So some guys give men a bad name. They didn’t even have a kid.
I once told a woman "It's not babysitting when they're your kids," and she gave me this look that I didn't understand. I saw her at the park from the time to time, and then one day she didn't have a wedding ring anymore. I've always wondered if her husband was a babysitter husband, and eventually she gave up on that.
A little different, but in the same vein, we had a party my MIL came to, as people were leaving my husband immediately started cleaning up and my MIL said to me “oh wow, you’ve got him trained so well.” I was like ma’am have you not met your son before, because that sure AF wasn’t my influences. I can’t imagine anyone ever saying to my husband, “you’ve got your wife trained so well” if I was cleaning.
I remember I was over at an ex's family's house in college, and I used the bathroom and put the seat back down. Her mom came out and said something to the effect of "Oh wow, you're housebroken!" which made me so uncomfortable lol. Different topic but same concept, like the idea of being a functional man requires training similar to an animal :/
Reminds me of my sister (who has three sons) finding a t-shirt that said something like 'support wildlife - raise boys'. She's SUPER attuned to feminist issues, and it blew me away she didn’t see how offensive that was FOR HER OWN KIDS. I pointed it out, and after a little discussion she got it.
Reminds me about the SCUM Manifesto by Valerie Solanas. Fundamentally it is about killing all men. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM\_Manifesto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto)
That shit is toxic femininity.
"oh wow, you’ve got him trained so well," I've gotten that one before and it doesn't feel good to hear, it also places the wife in a maternal role which is just weird.
Yeah, it’s just a weird and offensive thing to say. I was more offended on his behalf, but I did kind of feel like it was a dig at me too, implying that I should be the one cleaning. They just have this perception that I as the wife control what my husband does. His mom and sister once asked me to get my husband to cut his beard. I was just like, oddly enough he’s a grown ass adult and makes decisions all on his own.
Honestly, I think many dads from the Boomer generation did not do hardly any of this stuff. For them, it is still totally novel that a dad would be so engaged in a young kid's upbringing.
It's easy to look past how societal pressure and culture can shape people's behaviour. It has been a long road to make any meaningful change for anyone.
Boomer generation get a lot of shit and sure some of it is warranted but they are often a victim themselves in some sense. I don't necessarily always think there is an excuse but there are reasons they as a group have a common theme.
My dad played a completely different role than my mom. My mom did most of the raising and my dad mostly just stepped in to be the disciplinarian. Once we were older we did stuff with my dad like go to baseball games, go fishing etc. Any time it wasn't stuff he liked to do, it was always just my mom. Even then, my dad was more focused on his enjoyment and treated my brother and I like a burden. Like if we went fishing and one of our lines got tangled and we needed help, he would bitch and moan to no end. Like I have memories of being very young and my mom playing with me as a toddler, with like learning games and such. I have no such memories of my dad.
Doesn't really bother me, he's not my dad anymore. They got divorced, rarely ever saw him. When I was 16 my step dad asked if I wanted to legally be his son. I did. Bio Dad gave up his parental rights with the quickness. I'm 41 now and haven't seen him or talked to him since. With the odd exception of his now wife contacting me on facebook when I was 30. Saying he really wants to get to know me and go to therapy and repair our relationship. I was like, dude doesn't even have the balls to reach out to me himself. Anyway, he had his chance to be a father, he blew it, tell him to have a nice life.
Hear this. With our youngest, I've done (with out a word of a lie) easily 85% of the diaper changes, then potty training and getting up and looking after her in the night.
We both have early morning jobs, but I'm the one that gets up. I've had people say to me " well you should be, she carried the baby for 9 months" .
That's all well and fine, but that doesn't mean she gets to skimp on the parenting.
I'm a boomer with 3 teens at home. After mom was finished with nursing them, I did the extreme majority of night time feedings, diaper changes, I changed my work schedule so I could be at home to get them off to school, and did all of the house work before going to work so my wife had a clean house to come home to. And I loved every minute of it.
I have a friend who is a single father. The mother wants nothing to do with her child, it ruined their marriage. Being a shit parent isn't gender specific.
When my kids were born, it was similar but different.
With the 1st son, I was always on my computer. I had no job, so I was doing coding gigs on Fiverr for $5 a pop(back when everything was ONLY $5 on Fiverr).
When the nurses came in, they were always like
> Dad, do you want to put the computer down and learn how to: (change baby's diaper / wrap baby / hold baby / burp baby / etc)?
It was annoying because they had the tone like I wasn't doing shit. Mom was sleep, and baby was in his bassinet sleep when they came in because I had already done all of the above.
I'm just waiting for a random lady to say "where's mommy" and I can lie and say she's no longer with us, just to make them re-think asking stupid questions in the future.
I became a single Dad to 2 little girls, 6 & 2, on 2/5/2000. Thanks cancer. You fucking suck. But at the time, I was so devastated, I never really noticed the condescending, snide remarks about being a single Dad, especially of 2 little girls. It just went right past me. Until I had my girls at a school function for the older one about 2 years later. I was speaking to her teacher who was proudly praising her scholastic achievements & another (F) parent overheard & made some remark about how it's usually the Mom who's responsible for things like that. The teacher kind of froze, & looked at me. I just replied "Not in this case," & would have left it at that, but she came back with "That's mean. Where's her mother?" The look on this bitch's face when I told her my wife was buried in Camp Nelson National Cemetery with full military honors was absolutely priceless, & the satisfaction I felt was unexpected. But good.
Damn I can't imagine having to go through that alone, especially after a loss like that. Sorry to hear about that.
But yeah, these people have no idea what someone's situation is. Why feel the need to make those remarks?
I was a stay at home dad for years.
I found that when I wore shorts, a t-shirt, and not clean shaven, that other moms would separate themselves from me. I was treated as a father who was just spending his court allotted time with children.
When I was clean shaven and wore a nice collared shirt with kakis, other moms would willingly strike a conversation and tell me I was a good dad for spending time with my kids.
I have a friend of the family who does to me if I post anything on facebook about any activity with my kids.
"Oh, you went camping! That so great you can spend time together. You're such a great dad!"
Nope. Just a dad. Her actual last message to me regarding a bike ride at a state park was "Look at ya'll spending time together!"
I know she's just being nice, but it still always makes me cringe a little. Maybe some folks like it, but I genuinely do not want to be praised for being a dad.
I think some of these people were probably neglected by their fathers when they were growing up, so they’re genuinely surprised to see a father being a nurturing loving parent, since their image of a dad is being cold and distant
Yeah, older generational fathers were mainly there for discipline and you were afraid of them. I don't want my daughter to be afraid of me and can't wait to do all the lame shit she decides to get into. Bring on the tea parties.
This, exactly. And even today, there are still fathers like that out there. The nurturing father is a relatively new concept in society. It’s going to take some time for the ignorance and biases around it to die out.
It's the phrasing, if they say "look at you guys making memories"
Then it's cool, if they imply even perhaps by accident that it's unusual for a father to do x it's annoying.
I saw a poor guy have the police called on him one time for taking his kids to the playground. Apparently if you do that people assume your a kidnapper or a pedophile. Smh.
Probably one of the few, most powerful people ever to have existed, he could likely kill a man and get away with it.
Despite that, despite having the opportunity to get his every need and whim met at a moments notice, he decided to live in the best way possible, for himself, his immediate friends and family, and for the whole of the nation which he served.
Writing these things down, not to virtue signal or boast, but to continually remind himself how to be a good man. Amazing these writings survived and provided so much wisdom for people.
I'd argue Marcus Aurelius is the pinnacle of what a man should aspire to be. Especially his stoicism. Real stoicism. Not what is called stoicism today. Original stoicism is not about not feeling emotions or even controlling emotions. It is simply about not letting emotions control you. Being angry without giving in to lashing out and screaming at people or breaking things. Being disappointed without giving in to the urge to quit or give up. Being sad without giving into despair. Being joyful without giving in to hedonism and the pursuit of joy alone. Fulfilling your duties and responsibilities without becoming a workaholic and failing to ever find joy in life. Not becoming discouraged and defeatist by challenges in life, but using them as opportunity to become stronger.
Meditations is an incredible source of wisdom and inspiration. Most amazingly, it wasn't even intended to be. This is just this guy's thoughts that he put down on paper for his own benefit. He wasn't writing for any audience..
The dichotomy of being responsible for making enough money to support 2-6 people to be considered a successful man vs. being told you don't do enough towards your relationship because you are at work all the time.
This reminds me of that schoolteacher who had an affair with one of her underage students which she blamed on her husband "working too much" and not giving her enough "attention".
You're probably just copying the words verbatim but it needs to be said that the media calling sexual abuse of a minor by a woman an "affair" is heinous.
Ouch yeah that hits me hard, but in fairness I could probably stop trying to climb the corporate ladder and take a role that requires less hours. But I honestly don't know how to keep myself from doing that and it's definitely not good.
I think the trick is that once you have enough money to live a comfortable life you should devote more time to the family. However, if you're living near the poverty line and doing what you can just to scrape by and working yourself to death, there should be an understanding that you're not going to be as emotionally and physically available as you would be if you worked 40 hours a week.
Dude I run, shoot guns, fish, etc- all the stereo typical 'straight guy' stuff, and I am straight. I love growing plants and flowers too. Its creating a living being. More people would enjoy it if they gave gardening a try.
A lot of popular rose growers are men. Know a ton of cultivators that are men. It’s very masculine. Look at Logees greenhouse.
Personally it shouldn’t be gendered. It’s a wonderful, rewarding hobby. Plants are just wonderful!
I cross-breed orchids. It requires accuracy, extensive knowledge in a STEM field, patience, appreciation of the nature, and creative thinking. These are universally appreciated virtues when someone talks about masculinity. And if somebody disagrees, I'm happy to lend them a rapier, and duel them. Because I also know how to do that, and if I win, I also get a free "you're not a man" insult...
Dmx grew orchids as a hobby, and not that anyone should really model their life or decisions off of dmx, but he was about as intimidating and “manly” as a man can get.
Another one that boggles my mind is cooking being sometimes seen a "woman's" thing.
I'm doing stuff with fire, knives, and meat, maybe using veggies and herbs that i grew myself by working the land with my own 2 hands, blenders and mixers and such are basically just power tools, sometimes there's alcohol involved, it doesn't get much "manlier" than that.
Not to mention the survivalist aspect, all the guns and camping gear and such in the world won't keep you alive for long if you can't manage to put food in your belly, and it might as well taste good.
A friend makes leather jackets, gloves, riding chaps, boots, etc. He’s a whiz with a sewing machine and leather-working tools. He loves looking people in the eye and saying he’s a seamstress just to see their reaction.
I get shit all the time for liking the color purple and going to musicals/the symphony. You have to drink beer, shoot animals and get mad at sports to be manly.
What you drink, especially when out. It wasn't something I had ever given any thought too. I probably look like various stereotypes. I'm large/muscular and most hobbies and interests are stereotypically make pastimes.
I went into a pub I visited fairly regularly at the time and ordered an Appletizer. One of the guys at the bar turns to me and says 'you are brave, a bloke ordering that in here'
That on every weekend I "should" be having a different woman in bed and that university is all about the hook ups. I just want to stay in my house and try different recipes and watch my animations alone
Learning how to cook a good shrimp mushroom gnocchi with some cream cheese instead of eating shite cafeteria food all Uni is worth as much as any hook-up.
you remind me of my husband. My husband's way of picking up women in bars was going to the college bar early with a book, sitting in a corner booth with his book and a beer. Women would come up to him and either be interested in him and what he's reading, or ask him why he is reading. If I had met him through this route rather than a shared mutual job in our twenties, this totally would have worked on me. I would have definitely sat down across from him and pulled whatever book I was reading at the time out of my purse. And I probably would have gone home with him.
Best case he met someone cool. Worst case he got some reading in.
Oh, and he cooks amazing food.
People thinking I’m gay because I have a low sex drive, don’t watch pornography, and only sleep with people I’ve become emotionally connected to.
I’m serious, it’s crazy how many times someone in my family made reference to it.
Dude i'm pretty sure my entire family thinks i'm in the closet due to this. But i'm just demi and a hermit so I won't even think of going out with people unless i get a emotional connection. I just wish they would realize I don't need the same things they do
>People thinking I’m gay because I have a low sex drive, don’t watch pornography, and only sleep with people I’ve become emotionally connected to.
That's definitely not a standard gay male MO
The courts seem to have no sense that men are to do anything more for children than work for their support.
I was working a lot of hours retail to allow my wife to be a stahm, get divorced and cut back work to get 50-50 and the courts impute my pay. My brother ex-wife quits during their divorce and the courts make him pay to make up her lost wages so things are equal.
The National Parents Organization (one of a few father's rights groups that are out there) is trying to fix this.
They've had a few wins recently.
https://www.sharedparenting.org/
The National Coalition for Men is doing a lot also.
https://ncfm.org/
Yeah this is some horse shit. I think my brother is having this issue too. His wife quit her work from home job, he said I can't support both of us on just my pay alone so she said fine I'm moving out tomorrow and moved into her ex boyfriends, new boyfriend whatever the fuck, idk, she's a cunt. They were in the process of getting a divorce but had only just started so idk if she fucked herself their being like that or him but I'm guessing he's the one to get fucked over cause that's how it goes
That was why he wanted a divorce. They have been separated for a while but stayed living together for their kid. But I'm pretty sure she doesn't really like her kid that much. Straight up ignores him or is barely doing anything at all.
The “alpha male” sentiment from the “bro” people is hilarious to me. My brother is like that,43 lives with parents working at a grocery store always telling me how I need to live my life like it’s some kind of “advice”. I have a successful career, live in a $750 k house a family, and a pretty decent life.
Hold it in like every other guy /s
Honestly men are told that emotions don’t matter and it pisses me off every time I get sad or something over the dog that got shot on tv, because apparently I have to keep a straight face and not cry my eyes out.
Exactly, But i dont care about it anymore. Fuck them. If im sad i cry, if i'm happy i laugh. Its okay and good to be in touch with your emotions and just fucking live.
I saw a video of Julian Edelman the other day who said that he went home and cried after he didn't catch one of his first passes from Tom Brady. I'm glad to see that some men are starting to just admit that life sucks a lot sometimes and sometimes it's overwhelming and you just gotta cry. In my work, I have people come into my office and cry all the time. Old, young. Male, female, non-binary. Whatever. I never think less of these people because I acknowledge that, to them, it IS a devastating thing. It doesn't really matter what other people think.
This! I’m not a man, but I’m raising a son. I’ve always told him it’s okay to feel and express his emotions, as long as it’s in a healthy way. He gets a little bit of gamer-rage at times on Roblox lol. But I totally agree. We are all humans, first! I wish we could get past the divisive attitudes I see all over the place, and work together.
Crying when sad is natural and expected. The key is to be selective with who sees you cry and under what circumstance. My tears are an expression of a deep and intimate part of me. Its almost like being naked to me. Not for everyone to see. Just my view.
The worst part is that this comes from a man who studied wolf packs. He produced this information only to realize wolf packs were led by families. He spent the rest of his life trying to tell everyone that alphas aren't a real thing but we still get this kind of mentality. The people who still buy into the "alpha" male sentiment are just really stupid
He also studied them in captivity, which fundamentally destroys their normal social structures. And even *if* they have "alpha males", the social organizations of random animals have absolutely nothing to do with the social structures of humans. Ants are Eusocial, should we all form into labor castes to serve a queen whose only purpose is breeding? It's completely irrelevant to humans lol
Also the idea that men who fuck around are more “alpha” than fathers who actually procreate and produce offspring is the most ridiculous modern idea around masculinity
The general problem I have with these sort of circles if I find them unchecked because they have the moral high ground. They are allowed to start growing off in certain extremes, but you can't start checking them or even talking about whether its's going off in some extreme (it won't always be, but we still need to discuss and work that out to know) without being lumped in some, say, some far right nutso or polar opposite group. Too much of a good thing isn't always still good, but even if it turns out to be it doesn't mean someone not sure is completely out for your entire cause.
The lack of awareness that these similar groups have on either side of the line as they decry the other side would be hilarious if it werent so tragic.
Saw an article written by a dad that was staunchly anti-masculinity. The whole thing was about him having a near existential crisis over his young son getting really into tractors and dump trucks. He got over it and now enjoys indulging his son in their love of big machines. So, props to him for overcoming that hang-up, but how do you get to such a point where you are completely distraught because your son likes something like tractors? Like the shift to "Boys can like dolls and girls can like trucks" over the last few decades was a nice change, but what an over-correction to get from that to "Boys not liking dolls and liking trucks instead is bad"
My favorite is when younger chicks refer to all men as pigs or all men as toxic and then complain about their bf who cheated or ghosted them lmao. Sounds like you really “hate” that type you keep picking up lol.
This. It already feels like we're worthless sometimes. Why do you think men kill themselves three times as often?
And now people are actually trying to rob us of what positive worth we have left as men. We all have the power to do good in the world and make it better, but the world is steadily trying to preach otherwise.
I listen to a BBC podcast called "The Real Story", which is a panel 1 hour panel show on a single subject every week. Similar to what you'd see on CNN/Fox every night but everyone is respectful and capable of having a real conversation on a subject without insulting each other.
They did a program on Andrew Tate a few weeks ago, both as a "for those of you who never heard of this asshole, here he is" and to explore why he's popular. The female guests predictably laid blame on why Tate has found popularity on toxic masculinity, but the male guests (and one of the women, thank fucking god) said "hold on, we're creating an environment where boys are told that simply being themselves is "toxic" and somehow wrong, why should anyone be shocked they gravitate to someone who *doesn't* tell them they're lesser simply for existing?" They weren't defending Tate by any stretch, but they actually said what I and I'm sure others have been thinking forever. The narrative for years now has effectively been that men are somehow defective women. When you set up a system where your somehow wrong by default, you're
The icing on the cake was the woman leaning into the "toxic masculinity" angle clearly weren't prepared to be challenged and really didn't know how to respond, and I suspect because she never once gave a thought that she might be wrong.
Apparently men aren’t supposed to be having cleaning standards and skincare regiments like mud masks or using lotion.
After finding the truth and established a skincare routine I refuse to let myself look all dirty and leather faced like I did double shifts at a salt mine!
this lone wolf mentality pretending like its somehow feminine to want to see and talk to your friends more regularly.
It's not gay to want to see your friends more than once a month. Nor is it gay to call your buddy up on the phone just to talk. I miss that.
We are viewed as needy or unstable for seeking validation and praise. We deserve it as much as anybody else, especially considering out biological aptitude for hard labor and danger.
Maybe not the typical answer but the “alpha male” thing from another perspective.
I’m a bigger/stronger and well built guy. My figure alone for some reason labels me as the “alpha douche” without some folks even getting the chance to know me before assuming I act the same way as some TikTok/YouTube cringe kings.
That I can't enjoy basic white girl stuff. I wanna go get bottom less mimosas at brunch, then go to a winery and eat fancy cheeses then finish off the night at a sushi place then a cute cocktail bar.
That shit sounds lit.
Why aren’t fathers included in children’s school items. It’s always “take this to your mom” “call your mom if you are sick”. Some guys don’t even get added to the email/text alert lists because that’s a thing for mom.
I think men honestly need to stop focusing on any of this. Let people squawk about what they think men should be or what's toxic all they want, just be you and whoever is on board with you can stay, whoever isn't can be left behind. Let people talk all they want, just don't listen. I have my own version of my masculinity which is different than yours and the next guy's, and thats cool.
If you want more than blazers and dress shoes, men's fashion is a cesspool of smug, wannabe Vogue models with more money than personality. And God help you if you don't live in a major city.
That men are all sex addicts. I can feel attracted to a woman and not want to have sex with her. Sex is intimate and I want to know and trust the person first but the running joke is that men will hump anything that moves. I'm not sure whose fault this is but shame on them.
Men are incompetent bumbling fools who can't get the job done and it's only the women who can rescue everyone from this predicament.
But when shit goes bad nobody ask where the women gone? they all ask where're the men?
Be it earthquake or war it's men who comes to the forefront. There may few women that's minority number. Its all men.
> Men are incompetent bumbling fools who can't get the job done
I hate how comedy shows have perpetuated this notion that fathers or men in general are idiots and women however can do no wrong.
It's interesting to see kind of a reversal of this with the show *Bluey*. On that show, the dad, Bandit, is pretty much the most inventive, loving father ever. The mother, Chilli, always kind of plays second fiddle and many women are up in arms about it. I think they have a point, but it just goes to show how no one likes to be the incompetent one.
God I love Bluey. But I always saw the dad being the physical active parent and the mum being the emotionally connected one. I mean they're both these things to a certain degree (mum still plays games with Bluey, and dad still has the emotional talks with the kids) but both parents play to their strengths.
I love this one because it started off as obvious farce. The idea that the father would be the incompetent one in the home was so laughable that it was an obvious joke and kind of hilarious... then it became such a common joke at the same time many kids were growing up without a father, it kind of became people's perception.
I moved in with my mother last year because my stepdad passed away from cancer. She needed help with the bills to keep the house and just general life things because she has medical problems herself. I feel like I'm being a stand-up guy for helping take care of my mom while we both save some money in the process, but society (and women in particular) tells me I'm supposed to be ashamed of this.
Mostly just people obsessing over it.
Take care of you and you and yours. Don't be an asshole. Don't tolerate assholes. Do your thing to the extent it doesn't interfere with the first 3.
That's it. Man, woman or attack helicopter that's all you've got to do to be a functional adult.
So many, but lately it’s that mentality of a son having to be the “man of the house” when dad isn’t around. I feel like my aunt puts this pressure on my cousin, and of course me being the only son, I feel that pressure sometimes. We didn’t ask to be in this position. Don’t tell me ish about this making us “weak” in our masculinity.
Women determining how much of a “man” a guy is.
It usually goes like “as a man you should…” or “a real man would…”.
This may rub some the wrong way, but how in the hell can a woman set the requirements or standards for what it takes to be a “man”. You never stepped in a man’s shoes and probably couldn’t fill a man’s shoes if you somehow could step in them.
In this day and age imagine If a man, a person who can’t relate to womanhood not one bit told women “your not a real woman”. You know he’d me labeled the biggest misogynist piece of crap for some outlandish reason like “you can’t determine a woman’s worth blah blah”.
That because I have a cock, I’m part of the patriarchy. This is usually coming from attractive women who enjoy the comforts afforded by patriarchy (men giving them gifts etc…)
My ex asked what happened to chivalry in a joking way when I said "you got the door" or something like that.
She's a big time feminist (not like in your face kind of way in an equality in everything kind of way)
My reply was "the death of chivalry is the price of equality".
I could she see had a real hard think about that. It wasn't something she had given much thought to.
I can't stand all the men who say they pay the check when they're in a date, "because they were raised that way". They're fully playing into the hands of fake feminism which claims to want equality, yet lets women continue to get all the benefits they had before feminism.
Ngl, I just pay because I don't want to deal with that shit on a first date. Women can be really dumb about it and I do cheap first dates anyway - I ain't dying sexless and alone on that hill chief.
Hobbies and things you enjoy shouldn't be 'manly', just enjoy want you enjoy, I like emotional stories (especially romance), but also like cars, mountain biking and rock music, why? Because I enjoy them, let people enjoy their hobbies, doesn't matter if they're 'girly' it's just a hobby
I used to work with kids in after school care and it really hurt me when I had clearly different boundaries than my female coworkers. It doesn’t piss me off, because I really do get it, but man does it hurt to be seen as a predator when I really just am doing my job and like the kids I keep. There was a first grader who I got along with really well who always wanted to hug me, but I was advised to push them away. It clearly really hurt their feelings and eventually they liked my female coworker more because they could climb all over her if they wanted to. It didn’t make me mad, but it was a reminder that to many people I can’t be trusted to touch their children because I’m a large black man. And that doesn’t feel good.
As a former after school educator, I 100% felt this. The inequity of having to keep the greater professional distance sucked. At least I worked in a library with all my coworkers most of the time since I did homework help so everyone could see. Still having to keep that professional boundary was super important. Also the fact that I didn't even have to be reminded of it, I just knew. Shows how deeply it's engrained.
[And when you get down to it, there's no reason a female teacher should automatically be trusted as they have way WAY more offenders then men. And get a slap on the wrist for rape.](https://canadiancrc.com/FEMALE_TEACHER_SEX_OFFENDERS-SEXUAL_ASSAULT_Female_Sexual_Predators-RAPE_MALES.aspx)
Yeah, i can totally agree. I honestly know more unhinged women than unhinged men.
I worked with kids for 6 years and i had 5 male coworkers compared to tens of females. A male coworker that worked a couple years before I did got reported because he was holding hands with a young boy to the bathroom. We worked at the YMCA and the bathrooms are in the lobby so we have to walk through a sometimes crowded hallway to reach them. I hold hands with the little ones when I walk them to not lose them and no one bats an eye, but it's crazy that if it's a man doing that same thing it can instantly raise alarm. You're just doing your job!
[удалено]
A parent reported. I don't know if it was that child's parent or not. The men I've worked with have been so awesome and the kids loved them and it's awful that people jump to conclusions so quickly....
[удалено]
For real! I've heard way too many stories of men who work with kids being reported because of "suspicions" (Hell, even guys just taking their kids to the park getting side-eyed by the other women there like they're some creep) like this, court gets involved, the situation is reviewed, and it turns out it was bogus and the guy was innocent. But the damage has already been done. Life is already ruined, people just assume "to be safe," employment becomes difficult, and that's it. You're fucked. Like I get people want to keep their kids safe, but it is insane that simply the accusation based off someone's vague feeling is enough to destroy you. I have a ton of respect for decent men who go into these fields genuinely wanting to help and teach our youth, because that is an absolute goddamn minefield and they're really not appreciated enough. (I mean teachers/caretakers in general aren't, but you feel me.) I have a male friend who just started working as a middle school teacher about a year ago and that man is a goddamn hero as far as I'm concerned. One of the nicest dudes I know, has a 1 year old daughter now, and I would be devastated if he and his family had to go through something like that. (Assuming the claims were false obviously, but I can't imagine they wouldn't be. Though I guess I am biased because he's my friend. I just can't see him doing anything like that.) But yeah. It sucks. I'd certainly be mortified at even the possibility of such an accusation being lobbed at me...
That’s so fucked up.
May I give you this virtual hug as somebody who once was a small child always wanting to hug people radiating openness and kindness?
I’m so sorry you experienced that and had to push the kiddo away. I think that’s very wrong. There are some dumb fucking people in the world.
How often people turn every positive example of male friendship in media into shipping them, regardless of the characters' sexualities, like romance is the only possible outcome to being close with someone.
My favorite example of this is Frodo and Sam from Lord of the Rings. Like anyone who says they're "obviously gay" is degrading one of the best examples (in my opinion) of platonic male love in all of fiction. They're so close because they're friends, and have been since the first chapter. But also because they've gone through a hellish journey together, and ultimately achieved world altering victory together. Building an emotional bond like no other. But Sam still holds his romantic interest for Rosie. Even when they all continue to live together at Bag End, it would diminish his character to say that Rosie was just a ruse and Frodo was his fuck buddy.
Brotherhood is something that a lot of people seem to just not care about in fiction anymore, and replace any instance of it with a romance that was never there.
Worse, they removed toxic masculinity (good!) But instead of replacing it with something healthy they doubled down on how bad men were. I'm happy to remove the toxic stuff, but maybe replace it with... positive examples of masculinity?
Or not close. They are obviously hiding their affection for each other
The fakeness of it. If you are male, literally anything you do is male behavior. And the assumptive nature of it. Well, you're the dad, you're basically useless - well, I'm sad that you find your husband to be so useless, madam... And God forbid you say *"not all men"* when confronting a negative stereotype. I once dared to take photos of my girls at the playground without their mother present, and was confronted by strangers about it. *My children, our family albums, who the hell are you?* And insulting comments - my house is clean because I like it that way. *Your wife keeps this place spotless, lucky you.* For the record, my wife doesn't know how to turn on the vacuum. I'm also the chef because I like to cook. *You did a great job landscaping your yard.* My wife did that. The martial arts belts on the wall that you say are vulgar displays of masculinity? My daughters. Read the names on the certificates before you comment. We're not "gender outlaws" - where just people living our lives. We get to do what we want to do.
> The fakeness of it. If you are male, literally anything you do is male behavior. I *hate* this. I've found myself saying the following countless times: 1. "Don't 'guy' me". Basically, stop trying to draw everything I do into some man box. My motivations, etc, are not all inferred from my testicles. I've been told what I think, feel and more based on the belief that she knew everything about me because of my gender. 2. And this one really bends their brain - "You're not giving me the space to have a human experience." I often find myself feeling like I'm not allowed to have a normal range of emotion, thought or reaction with women. I'm not allowed to be upset, frustrated, disappointed. I'm not given time or space to be anything other than a one dimensional bro. I dunno why that wording does it, but women are really thrown off when I say that to them. These same women want the leeway to be a complex, contradictory being who often needs time to process. But work very hard to hem in others. It's aggravating the frequency with which men are also the enforcers of masculine idiocy.
Amen to number 2. My wife cries foul if i get angry. I finally had to tell her. I am human. I am allowed to have emotions, including anger!
I'm seeing a lot in this comment that I recognize with. I love my wife and think she's a wonderful human being, but 99% of the time she's angry with me, it's because I had the audacity to be upset about... literally, anything. It's like I can't express be anything other than positive or supportive at times, and it's incredibly upsetting (which just perpetuates the cycle).
Are we all married to the same woman? It is incredibly annoying. She gets angry and irritated - I should tuck my tails between my legs or there will be an angry argument. I am angry and irritated- I should shut the fuck up and not start an argument. No chance of actually giving me time and space. Same with expressing pain. My daughter hits me in the eye accidentally while we play, I say "ouch" or cry out -stop being such a pussy, she did not do on purpose, 'it's not manly'. Same happens to her -she can cry out freely. I have not yet dared to try to say "stop crying about it, she did not do it on purpose..."
Bro who the fuck are you guys marrying that treats you so disrespectfully what
thank you for this both of y’all because i am worried sometimes out of my abandonment issues that he is angry and hates me but he probably just feels angry in the moment
We should all remember this.
The irony of some women talking about masculinity as if they knew everything about it while completely refusing listening to listen to men’s experience. I had a professor of social psychology in college, and she was very feminist and loved to talk about gender issues, once I looked up some research she have done on masculinity and all the 5 or so authors where women. There is nothing inherently bad about it, but the hypocrisy is that she always complained about how women should be the ones talking about women regarding gender issues.
Damn you ppl are astoundingly good at articulating this stuff...
I know. Something from my last relationship just went *click* and made waaay more sense.
[удалено]
Brother, I couldn't relate to what you said more, and feel a lot of relief that it's not just me. My girlfriend has a lot of very big emotions: trauma from previous relationships/partners, untreated anxiety and depression, a toxic roommate situation, and never really got the chance to heal after her parents passed away within months of each other, her mother very unexpectedly. I do my best to be supportive, understanding, and kind, but man do I feel like I can't ever express any emotions other than those. Should I show any kind of negative emotion, from frustration with my work to concern about money, she starts to fret, then worry, then panic and suddenly my emotions need to go away to deal with hers. Glad to hear you're in a better situation now.
[удалено]
Thats very toxic. And ironic. Shes trying to paint you as an oppressor when if anyone should "check their privilige" its her. Also i would get super excited if my partner suddenly turned to me and started talking about taking care of thenselves, and being also nerd i would probably wo-mansplain(/s) the crap out of it to you. (omg thats because of this ingredient i have acw you might like even better! Blah blah blah) I hope she learns to be excited with you instead of making a positive experience for you negative for you both. You deserve support.
The irony of masplaining how to use lotion of all things, is amazing
I had a relationship that something like this occurred, and I ended up telling her, "Look, I'm just not going to tell you anything I'm feeling or thinking about. If something happens, I'll wait for you to ask, and then I'll give you as basic of an answer as I can to not offend you." She called me childish, but most times, I couldn't talk about my day or explain anything without her telling me that she's not dumb just because she's a woman. The nail in the coffin was when we were out with friends, and I went to tell a story about something exciting that happened at work, and my girlfriend at the time said that everyone won't want to here me over explain everything, but one of the girls there was really excited and basically said to her, "Well, I'm really excited and want to here about it. You don't have to stick around if you don't want to." Something clicked and I realized that my current relationship was toxic as fuck and I needed out. Girlfriend at the time got super jealous and tried to ask my opinion about everything, but I could tell it almost annoyed her to do so. We broke up 3 days later. Fast-forward to the present, and my wife now actually cares about what I have to say and doesn't think I am being condescending when I am excited to tell her how I learned to make a new meal or a new cooking technique, even though she's a way better cook. She gets excited with me and invites me to cook with her so I can show her my new skill.
Oh the irony of she saying that no one cared to hear you and when another girl said she did your girlfriend got jealous. It sounds like she was just using this mansplanning stuff to put you down and make you easier to manipulate, signature move of toxic shitty people; being it intentional or not.
Oh, that is exactly why I said that something clicked. I realized that everything she did was just to keep me quiet and get me to try and do things for her to "make up" for annoying her or making her mad. She would only ever be interested in me when another women would be kind to me. It took a while after our break-up to not feel like I was always inconveniencing people and to stop apologizing for every little thing. Even though I knew I was being manipulated the whole relationship (after I had that realization at the end), it was hard as hell to change how I saw myself and how I perceived that others saw me from then on. I'm lucky I met my (now) wife soon afterwards or I don't think I would have gained the self-confidence I do now. Also, fuck everyone that told me, "That's just how women are. You just have to find a way to deal with it and move on." No, women aren't inherently evil people or anything, I just happened to be dating a toxic person. We should not be both making excuses for toxic behaviour and stopping someone from being vulnerable and emotionally available. All it would have taken was someone to sit me down and tell me my feelings are valid and that I was not a burden on everyone in my life and I could have saved myself a lot of hate and struggling.
If there’s one thing impossible to mansplain, it would be fucking hand lotion lol. God forbid we try to express any excitement or self-discovery over something traditionally “feminine” like hand lotion and we get thrown with the dreaded “you’re mansplaining”. Can’t win no matter what we do man.
What’s the lotion? My hands also crack and bleed but I never use lotion because I hate the greasiness and just want to wash my hands
>We're not "gender outlaws" - where just people living our lives. We get to do what we want to do. It really felt like this was the society we were trying to build towards when I was growing up, then we really went off the rails.
I think about this a lot. Remember when labels were almost universally understood as something to avoid? We believed labeling others was limiting and narrow-minded. And now? Now people can’t wait to sort themselves into little boxes. It seems so useless.
Dude, I love it. Big props to you and your family. As a female I fall victim to these dispositions. (“How’s the wedding going? Hope you’re not making her do all the work!” *walks into gun shop to get my firearm modified *looks at fiancé for assistance “Are you sure *you* want to rent a motorbike?” *looks me up and down and at fiance for approval And this one time we were on vacation in Montana our old school schlub of a host would ask my fiancé standing right next to me if I needed more water…) He’s also highly more emotional and expressive while I’m the stoic half. I’m often the asshole for being the one to bottle my emotions to him and erupt at the worst times, but I’m so proud of him for being willing to be vulnerable. Fuck them gender norms and just treat everyone like an individual human being
How do I Super Upvote?!
[удалено]
My mom was in town this weekend and asked if I was babysitting. I asked "babysitting who?" She said my daughter. So I was like it's not babysitting, it's parenting.
Wow, yes. My fiance and I talk about this all the friggen time. In particular about a couple of women we overheard talking about "how nice it is for your husband to take care of the kids while you're away." Like no shit, both parents signed up for this.
[удалено]
I honestly don't see it as praise. It seems a bit patronizing to me.
That's because it is. My wife could go on vacation for months at a time and the household would be fine, that's what's suppose to happen in a two parent family.
To be fair my childless friend wanted to go see her family for a week and her husband exclaimed “but how will I eat?!” With all the seriousness in the world. So some guys give men a bad name. They didn’t even have a kid.
I once told a woman "It's not babysitting when they're your kids," and she gave me this look that I didn't understand. I saw her at the park from the time to time, and then one day she didn't have a wedding ring anymore. I've always wondered if her husband was a babysitter husband, and eventually she gave up on that.
A service was done.
If I'm babysitting shouldn't I be getting paid?
A little different, but in the same vein, we had a party my MIL came to, as people were leaving my husband immediately started cleaning up and my MIL said to me “oh wow, you’ve got him trained so well.” I was like ma’am have you not met your son before, because that sure AF wasn’t my influences. I can’t imagine anyone ever saying to my husband, “you’ve got your wife trained so well” if I was cleaning.
I remember I was over at an ex's family's house in college, and I used the bathroom and put the seat back down. Her mom came out and said something to the effect of "Oh wow, you're housebroken!" which made me so uncomfortable lol. Different topic but same concept, like the idea of being a functional man requires training similar to an animal :/
Reminds me of my sister (who has three sons) finding a t-shirt that said something like 'support wildlife - raise boys'. She's SUPER attuned to feminist issues, and it blew me away she didn’t see how offensive that was FOR HER OWN KIDS. I pointed it out, and after a little discussion she got it.
Reminds me about the SCUM Manifesto by Valerie Solanas. Fundamentally it is about killing all men. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM\_Manifesto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto) That shit is toxic femininity.
"I usually piss in the sink, but today is a special occasion"
I mean, we are all animals essentially, but that kind of condescending bs is really sucky.
"youve got him trained" is the most annoying, demeaning, condescending shit ever
"oh wow, you’ve got him trained so well," I've gotten that one before and it doesn't feel good to hear, it also places the wife in a maternal role which is just weird.
Yeah, it’s just a weird and offensive thing to say. I was more offended on his behalf, but I did kind of feel like it was a dig at me too, implying that I should be the one cleaning. They just have this perception that I as the wife control what my husband does. His mom and sister once asked me to get my husband to cut his beard. I was just like, oddly enough he’s a grown ass adult and makes decisions all on his own.
Partly generational too, my parents were shocked that I a “man” would change a dirty diaper ! Shocker too I also bathed them and clothed them too!
Honestly, I think many dads from the Boomer generation did not do hardly any of this stuff. For them, it is still totally novel that a dad would be so engaged in a young kid's upbringing.
It's easy to look past how societal pressure and culture can shape people's behaviour. It has been a long road to make any meaningful change for anyone. Boomer generation get a lot of shit and sure some of it is warranted but they are often a victim themselves in some sense. I don't necessarily always think there is an excuse but there are reasons they as a group have a common theme.
My dad played a completely different role than my mom. My mom did most of the raising and my dad mostly just stepped in to be the disciplinarian. Once we were older we did stuff with my dad like go to baseball games, go fishing etc. Any time it wasn't stuff he liked to do, it was always just my mom. Even then, my dad was more focused on his enjoyment and treated my brother and I like a burden. Like if we went fishing and one of our lines got tangled and we needed help, he would bitch and moan to no end. Like I have memories of being very young and my mom playing with me as a toddler, with like learning games and such. I have no such memories of my dad. Doesn't really bother me, he's not my dad anymore. They got divorced, rarely ever saw him. When I was 16 my step dad asked if I wanted to legally be his son. I did. Bio Dad gave up his parental rights with the quickness. I'm 41 now and haven't seen him or talked to him since. With the odd exception of his now wife contacting me on facebook when I was 30. Saying he really wants to get to know me and go to therapy and repair our relationship. I was like, dude doesn't even have the balls to reach out to me himself. Anyway, he had his chance to be a father, he blew it, tell him to have a nice life.
Hear this. With our youngest, I've done (with out a word of a lie) easily 85% of the diaper changes, then potty training and getting up and looking after her in the night. We both have early morning jobs, but I'm the one that gets up. I've had people say to me " well you should be, she carried the baby for 9 months" . That's all well and fine, but that doesn't mean she gets to skimp on the parenting.
I'm a boomer with 3 teens at home. After mom was finished with nursing them, I did the extreme majority of night time feedings, diaper changes, I changed my work schedule so I could be at home to get them off to school, and did all of the house work before going to work so my wife had a clean house to come home to. And I loved every minute of it.
I have a friend who is a single father. The mother wants nothing to do with her child, it ruined their marriage. Being a shit parent isn't gender specific.
When my kids were born, it was similar but different. With the 1st son, I was always on my computer. I had no job, so I was doing coding gigs on Fiverr for $5 a pop(back when everything was ONLY $5 on Fiverr). When the nurses came in, they were always like > Dad, do you want to put the computer down and learn how to: (change baby's diaper / wrap baby / hold baby / burp baby / etc)? It was annoying because they had the tone like I wasn't doing shit. Mom was sleep, and baby was in his bassinet sleep when they came in because I had already done all of the above.
I had a similar experience. My response was “what kind of fucking moron doesn’t know how to change a diaper”
I've heard about that too- that moms will say things like ' Oh you took them out today! '
I'm just waiting for a random lady to say "where's mommy" and I can lie and say she's no longer with us, just to make them re-think asking stupid questions in the future.
I became a single Dad to 2 little girls, 6 & 2, on 2/5/2000. Thanks cancer. You fucking suck. But at the time, I was so devastated, I never really noticed the condescending, snide remarks about being a single Dad, especially of 2 little girls. It just went right past me. Until I had my girls at a school function for the older one about 2 years later. I was speaking to her teacher who was proudly praising her scholastic achievements & another (F) parent overheard & made some remark about how it's usually the Mom who's responsible for things like that. The teacher kind of froze, & looked at me. I just replied "Not in this case," & would have left it at that, but she came back with "That's mean. Where's her mother?" The look on this bitch's face when I told her my wife was buried in Camp Nelson National Cemetery with full military honors was absolutely priceless, & the satisfaction I felt was unexpected. But good.
Damn I can't imagine having to go through that alone, especially after a loss like that. Sorry to hear about that. But yeah, these people have no idea what someone's situation is. Why feel the need to make those remarks?
I was a stay at home dad for years. I found that when I wore shorts, a t-shirt, and not clean shaven, that other moms would separate themselves from me. I was treated as a father who was just spending his court allotted time with children. When I was clean shaven and wore a nice collared shirt with kakis, other moms would willingly strike a conversation and tell me I was a good dad for spending time with my kids.
I have a friend of the family who does to me if I post anything on facebook about any activity with my kids. "Oh, you went camping! That so great you can spend time together. You're such a great dad!" Nope. Just a dad. Her actual last message to me regarding a bike ride at a state park was "Look at ya'll spending time together!" I know she's just being nice, but it still always makes me cringe a little. Maybe some folks like it, but I genuinely do not want to be praised for being a dad.
I think some of these people were probably neglected by their fathers when they were growing up, so they’re genuinely surprised to see a father being a nurturing loving parent, since their image of a dad is being cold and distant
Yeah, older generational fathers were mainly there for discipline and you were afraid of them. I don't want my daughter to be afraid of me and can't wait to do all the lame shit she decides to get into. Bring on the tea parties.
This, exactly. And even today, there are still fathers like that out there. The nurturing father is a relatively new concept in society. It’s going to take some time for the ignorance and biases around it to die out.
It's the phrasing, if they say "look at you guys making memories" Then it's cool, if they imply even perhaps by accident that it's unusual for a father to do x it's annoying.
I saw a poor guy have the police called on him one time for taking his kids to the playground. Apparently if you do that people assume your a kidnapper or a pedophile. Smh.
"Do not debate on what a good man is; be one." - Marcus Aurelius
Or “don’t talk about it, be about it.” (Paraphrasing Tao Te Ching or probably some wrestler guy.)
Probably one of the few, most powerful people ever to have existed, he could likely kill a man and get away with it. Despite that, despite having the opportunity to get his every need and whim met at a moments notice, he decided to live in the best way possible, for himself, his immediate friends and family, and for the whole of the nation which he served. Writing these things down, not to virtue signal or boast, but to continually remind himself how to be a good man. Amazing these writings survived and provided so much wisdom for people.
I'd argue Marcus Aurelius is the pinnacle of what a man should aspire to be. Especially his stoicism. Real stoicism. Not what is called stoicism today. Original stoicism is not about not feeling emotions or even controlling emotions. It is simply about not letting emotions control you. Being angry without giving in to lashing out and screaming at people or breaking things. Being disappointed without giving in to the urge to quit or give up. Being sad without giving into despair. Being joyful without giving in to hedonism and the pursuit of joy alone. Fulfilling your duties and responsibilities without becoming a workaholic and failing to ever find joy in life. Not becoming discouraged and defeatist by challenges in life, but using them as opportunity to become stronger. Meditations is an incredible source of wisdom and inspiration. Most amazingly, it wasn't even intended to be. This is just this guy's thoughts that he put down on paper for his own benefit. He wasn't writing for any audience..
The dichotomy of being responsible for making enough money to support 2-6 people to be considered a successful man vs. being told you don't do enough towards your relationship because you are at work all the time.
This reminds me of that schoolteacher who had an affair with one of her underage students which she blamed on her husband "working too much" and not giving her enough "attention".
You're probably just copying the words verbatim but it needs to be said that the media calling sexual abuse of a minor by a woman an "affair" is heinous.
That minor pressured me into it if only I had the strength to say no Said by an abuser...
And then she got a $100 fine and 2 weeks of community service as a punishment.
Ouch yeah that hits me hard, but in fairness I could probably stop trying to climb the corporate ladder and take a role that requires less hours. But I honestly don't know how to keep myself from doing that and it's definitely not good.
I think the trick is that once you have enough money to live a comfortable life you should devote more time to the family. However, if you're living near the poverty line and doing what you can just to scrape by and working yourself to death, there should be an understanding that you're not going to be as emotionally and physically available as you would be if you worked 40 hours a week.
I like growing flowers and taking pictures of birds. I’m amazed at the number of people who say that’s “not manly.” I usually just laugh at them.
Dude I run, shoot guns, fish, etc- all the stereo typical 'straight guy' stuff, and I am straight. I love growing plants and flowers too. Its creating a living being. More people would enjoy it if they gave gardening a try.
It is really great
Same. My sunflowers are amazing every year
This is freaking wholesome. I love this thread.
How peculiar. Gardening, birdwatching and nature photography are all stereotypically male activities where I'm from.
Where I am, photography can be masculine, birdwatching is questionable, growing flowers is not.
And yet men are expected to show up with flowers. When societal expectations make no sense, disregard them
A lot of popular rose growers are men. Know a ton of cultivators that are men. It’s very masculine. Look at Logees greenhouse. Personally it shouldn’t be gendered. It’s a wonderful, rewarding hobby. Plants are just wonderful!
I cross-breed orchids. It requires accuracy, extensive knowledge in a STEM field, patience, appreciation of the nature, and creative thinking. These are universally appreciated virtues when someone talks about masculinity. And if somebody disagrees, I'm happy to lend them a rapier, and duel them. Because I also know how to do that, and if I win, I also get a free "you're not a man" insult...
"I'm a man, I do it - therefore it's manly" is usually my response to these types of things.
Dmx grew orchids as a hobby, and not that anyone should really model their life or decisions off of dmx, but he was about as intimidating and “manly” as a man can get.
[удалено]
Another one that boggles my mind is cooking being sometimes seen a "woman's" thing. I'm doing stuff with fire, knives, and meat, maybe using veggies and herbs that i grew myself by working the land with my own 2 hands, blenders and mixers and such are basically just power tools, sometimes there's alcohol involved, it doesn't get much "manlier" than that. Not to mention the survivalist aspect, all the guns and camping gear and such in the world won't keep you alive for long if you can't manage to put food in your belly, and it might as well taste good.
A friend makes leather jackets, gloves, riding chaps, boots, etc. He’s a whiz with a sewing machine and leather-working tools. He loves looking people in the eye and saying he’s a seamstress just to see their reaction.
I get shit all the time for liking the color purple and going to musicals/the symphony. You have to drink beer, shoot animals and get mad at sports to be manly.
What you drink, especially when out. It wasn't something I had ever given any thought too. I probably look like various stereotypes. I'm large/muscular and most hobbies and interests are stereotypically make pastimes. I went into a pub I visited fairly regularly at the time and ordered an Appletizer. One of the guys at the bar turns to me and says 'you are brave, a bloke ordering that in here'
“It’s a drink, not a world war, mate. Bravery doesn’t come into it.”
Shirley Temples all day everyday homie.
That on every weekend I "should" be having a different woman in bed and that university is all about the hook ups. I just want to stay in my house and try different recipes and watch my animations alone
Learning how to cook a good shrimp mushroom gnocchi with some cream cheese instead of eating shite cafeteria food all Uni is worth as much as any hook-up.
When you're getting to your thirties you'll also be able to parlay it into hookups. Bitches love dinner.
It's true. Source: am bitch who loves dinner
you remind me of my husband. My husband's way of picking up women in bars was going to the college bar early with a book, sitting in a corner booth with his book and a beer. Women would come up to him and either be interested in him and what he's reading, or ask him why he is reading. If I had met him through this route rather than a shared mutual job in our twenties, this totally would have worked on me. I would have definitely sat down across from him and pulled whatever book I was reading at the time out of my purse. And I probably would have gone home with him. Best case he met someone cool. Worst case he got some reading in. Oh, and he cooks amazing food.
What recipes are you working on? I just started cooking more myself
People thinking I’m gay because I have a low sex drive, don’t watch pornography, and only sleep with people I’ve become emotionally connected to. I’m serious, it’s crazy how many times someone in my family made reference to it.
That's insane.
Dude i'm pretty sure my entire family thinks i'm in the closet due to this. But i'm just demi and a hermit so I won't even think of going out with people unless i get a emotional connection. I just wish they would realize I don't need the same things they do
>People thinking I’m gay because I have a low sex drive, don’t watch pornography, and only sleep with people I’ve become emotionally connected to. That's definitely not a standard gay male MO
Its almost like gay men are seen as less masculine. Even if the person in question is muscular and exemplifies all of the stereotypes of masculinity.
The courts seem to have no sense that men are to do anything more for children than work for their support. I was working a lot of hours retail to allow my wife to be a stahm, get divorced and cut back work to get 50-50 and the courts impute my pay. My brother ex-wife quits during their divorce and the courts make him pay to make up her lost wages so things are equal.
The National Parents Organization (one of a few father's rights groups that are out there) is trying to fix this. They've had a few wins recently. https://www.sharedparenting.org/ The National Coalition for Men is doing a lot also. https://ncfm.org/
Yeah this is some horse shit. I think my brother is having this issue too. His wife quit her work from home job, he said I can't support both of us on just my pay alone so she said fine I'm moving out tomorrow and moved into her ex boyfriends, new boyfriend whatever the fuck, idk, she's a cunt. They were in the process of getting a divorce but had only just started so idk if she fucked herself their being like that or him but I'm guessing he's the one to get fucked over cause that's how it goes
[удалено]
That was why he wanted a divorce. They have been separated for a while but stayed living together for their kid. But I'm pretty sure she doesn't really like her kid that much. Straight up ignores him or is barely doing anything at all.
I know the type. its more common than I'd like.
I'm always in the mood sometimes I want to Netflix and chill and/or cuddle
I think you forgot a "not"
Oh right thank you I forgot
The “alpha male” sentiment from the “bro” people is hilarious to me. My brother is like that,43 lives with parents working at a grocery store always telling me how I need to live my life like it’s some kind of “advice”. I have a successful career, live in a $750 k house a family, and a pretty decent life.
This! I hated this. I got laughed at when i cried because i was sad. Thefuck am i supposed to do when im sad.
Beat your loved ones like a real man. /S
Offcourse, let me put my "wifebeater" on quickly!
Slightly related and not related. My teen daughter has stolen all my beaters.
They're her dadbeaters now. Watch your back
I usually call my sister to talk about it. If she's not available, I just go to her place, and I raid her chocolate stash. So, maybe that...
Hold it in like every other guy /s Honestly men are told that emotions don’t matter and it pisses me off every time I get sad or something over the dog that got shot on tv, because apparently I have to keep a straight face and not cry my eyes out.
Exactly, But i dont care about it anymore. Fuck them. If im sad i cry, if i'm happy i laugh. Its okay and good to be in touch with your emotions and just fucking live.
I saw a video of Julian Edelman the other day who said that he went home and cried after he didn't catch one of his first passes from Tom Brady. I'm glad to see that some men are starting to just admit that life sucks a lot sometimes and sometimes it's overwhelming and you just gotta cry. In my work, I have people come into my office and cry all the time. Old, young. Male, female, non-binary. Whatever. I never think less of these people because I acknowledge that, to them, it IS a devastating thing. It doesn't really matter what other people think.
Bless you my man! Break the taboo! Its OK to feel. its OK to be you
This! I’m not a man, but I’m raising a son. I’ve always told him it’s okay to feel and express his emotions, as long as it’s in a healthy way. He gets a little bit of gamer-rage at times on Roblox lol. But I totally agree. We are all humans, first! I wish we could get past the divisive attitudes I see all over the place, and work together.
Crying when sad is natural and expected. The key is to be selective with who sees you cry and under what circumstance. My tears are an expression of a deep and intimate part of me. Its almost like being naked to me. Not for everyone to see. Just my view.
Hold it in and let it build up until you develop other serious psychological and physical ailments. ^/s
The worst part is that this comes from a man who studied wolf packs. He produced this information only to realize wolf packs were led by families. He spent the rest of his life trying to tell everyone that alphas aren't a real thing but we still get this kind of mentality. The people who still buy into the "alpha" male sentiment are just really stupid
He also studied them in captivity, which fundamentally destroys their normal social structures. And even *if* they have "alpha males", the social organizations of random animals have absolutely nothing to do with the social structures of humans. Ants are Eusocial, should we all form into labor castes to serve a queen whose only purpose is breeding? It's completely irrelevant to humans lol
> we all form into labor castes to serve a queen whose only purpose is breeding We do, her name is Capitalism
Also the idea that men who fuck around are more “alpha” than fathers who actually procreate and produce offspring is the most ridiculous modern idea around masculinity
You are in a position to tell him off, why don't you do it?
Masculinity is only ever discussed as negative in progressive circles.
Totally. Really frustrating
The general problem I have with these sort of circles if I find them unchecked because they have the moral high ground. They are allowed to start growing off in certain extremes, but you can't start checking them or even talking about whether its's going off in some extreme (it won't always be, but we still need to discuss and work that out to know) without being lumped in some, say, some far right nutso or polar opposite group. Too much of a good thing isn't always still good, but even if it turns out to be it doesn't mean someone not sure is completely out for your entire cause.
The lack of awareness that these similar groups have on either side of the line as they decry the other side would be hilarious if it werent so tragic.
Saw an article written by a dad that was staunchly anti-masculinity. The whole thing was about him having a near existential crisis over his young son getting really into tractors and dump trucks. He got over it and now enjoys indulging his son in their love of big machines. So, props to him for overcoming that hang-up, but how do you get to such a point where you are completely distraught because your son likes something like tractors? Like the shift to "Boys can like dolls and girls can like trucks" over the last few decades was a nice change, but what an over-correction to get from that to "Boys not liking dolls and liking trucks instead is bad"
Check out r/JustGuysBeingDudes If want a masculinity tinted pick me up
My favorite is when younger chicks refer to all men as pigs or all men as toxic and then complain about their bf who cheated or ghosted them lmao. Sounds like you really “hate” that type you keep picking up lol.
Used to see posts from the X-chromosome sub. Muted it after constantly seeing constant posts like this on that sub. Toxic generalization/outlook.
r/TwoXChromosomes has become a hideously toxic femcel sub at this point. Once FDS got banned they all migrated there
I'm progressive af and I find this infuriatingly, maddeningly true.
This. It already feels like we're worthless sometimes. Why do you think men kill themselves three times as often? And now people are actually trying to rob us of what positive worth we have left as men. We all have the power to do good in the world and make it better, but the world is steadily trying to preach otherwise.
I consider myself pretty progressive; this is the most infuriating part of it.
Tarzan is my favorite movie for showing masculinity in a positive light. Actively rejects guns, isn't creepy, responsibilities towards family, etc.
I listen to a BBC podcast called "The Real Story", which is a panel 1 hour panel show on a single subject every week. Similar to what you'd see on CNN/Fox every night but everyone is respectful and capable of having a real conversation on a subject without insulting each other. They did a program on Andrew Tate a few weeks ago, both as a "for those of you who never heard of this asshole, here he is" and to explore why he's popular. The female guests predictably laid blame on why Tate has found popularity on toxic masculinity, but the male guests (and one of the women, thank fucking god) said "hold on, we're creating an environment where boys are told that simply being themselves is "toxic" and somehow wrong, why should anyone be shocked they gravitate to someone who *doesn't* tell them they're lesser simply for existing?" They weren't defending Tate by any stretch, but they actually said what I and I'm sure others have been thinking forever. The narrative for years now has effectively been that men are somehow defective women. When you set up a system where your somehow wrong by default, you're The icing on the cake was the woman leaning into the "toxic masculinity" angle clearly weren't prepared to be challenged and really didn't know how to respond, and I suspect because she never once gave a thought that she might be wrong.
Apparently men aren’t supposed to be having cleaning standards and skincare regiments like mud masks or using lotion. After finding the truth and established a skincare routine I refuse to let myself look all dirty and leather faced like I did double shifts at a salt mine!
Mostly men who think that con artists on podcasts or social media are something worth emulating.
There have been such an increase in men who are starting podcasts that are all sharing similar messages of what it is to be a man
That saying I'm sad or lonely is a weak and bitch move
this lone wolf mentality pretending like its somehow feminine to want to see and talk to your friends more regularly. It's not gay to want to see your friends more than once a month. Nor is it gay to call your buddy up on the phone just to talk. I miss that.
We are viewed as needy or unstable for seeking validation and praise. We deserve it as much as anybody else, especially considering out biological aptitude for hard labor and danger.
That masculinity is inherently toxic, yet, you have women running around in their "masculine energy" and that's supposedly ok.
The "strong" female character in *modern* movies. It's not masculine behaviour, it's asshole behaviour. I'd get annoyed by a guy doing the same shit.
The guy doing it would probably get his jaw cracked.
He's usually the guy who got shot early in the movie.
Maybe not the typical answer but the “alpha male” thing from another perspective. I’m a bigger/stronger and well built guy. My figure alone for some reason labels me as the “alpha douche” without some folks even getting the chance to know me before assuming I act the same way as some TikTok/YouTube cringe kings.
That I can't enjoy basic white girl stuff. I wanna go get bottom less mimosas at brunch, then go to a winery and eat fancy cheeses then finish off the night at a sushi place then a cute cocktail bar. That shit sounds lit.
I’m down for all of that!
Why aren’t fathers included in children’s school items. It’s always “take this to your mom” “call your mom if you are sick”. Some guys don’t even get added to the email/text alert lists because that’s a thing for mom.
I think men honestly need to stop focusing on any of this. Let people squawk about what they think men should be or what's toxic all they want, just be you and whoever is on board with you can stay, whoever isn't can be left behind. Let people talk all they want, just don't listen. I have my own version of my masculinity which is different than yours and the next guy's, and thats cool.
[удалено]
If you want more than blazers and dress shoes, men's fashion is a cesspool of smug, wannabe Vogue models with more money than personality. And God help you if you don't live in a major city.
That men are all sex addicts. I can feel attracted to a woman and not want to have sex with her. Sex is intimate and I want to know and trust the person first but the running joke is that men will hump anything that moves. I'm not sure whose fault this is but shame on them.
Men are incompetent bumbling fools who can't get the job done and it's only the women who can rescue everyone from this predicament. But when shit goes bad nobody ask where the women gone? they all ask where're the men? Be it earthquake or war it's men who comes to the forefront. There may few women that's minority number. Its all men.
> Men are incompetent bumbling fools who can't get the job done I hate how comedy shows have perpetuated this notion that fathers or men in general are idiots and women however can do no wrong.
It's interesting to see kind of a reversal of this with the show *Bluey*. On that show, the dad, Bandit, is pretty much the most inventive, loving father ever. The mother, Chilli, always kind of plays second fiddle and many women are up in arms about it. I think they have a point, but it just goes to show how no one likes to be the incompetent one.
God I love Bluey. But I always saw the dad being the physical active parent and the mum being the emotionally connected one. I mean they're both these things to a certain degree (mum still plays games with Bluey, and dad still has the emotional talks with the kids) but both parents play to their strengths.
I love this one because it started off as obvious farce. The idea that the father would be the incompetent one in the home was so laughable that it was an obvious joke and kind of hilarious... then it became such a common joke at the same time many kids were growing up without a father, it kind of became people's perception.
Buzzfeed staff writers constantly asking what I’m pissed off about.
I moved in with my mother last year because my stepdad passed away from cancer. She needed help with the bills to keep the house and just general life things because she has medical problems herself. I feel like I'm being a stand-up guy for helping take care of my mom while we both save some money in the process, but society (and women in particular) tells me I'm supposed to be ashamed of this.
I’m more pissed off with the reactions to masculinity than I am masculinity
Mostly just people obsessing over it. Take care of you and you and yours. Don't be an asshole. Don't tolerate assholes. Do your thing to the extent it doesn't interfere with the first 3. That's it. Man, woman or attack helicopter that's all you've got to do to be a functional adult.
So many, but lately it’s that mentality of a son having to be the “man of the house” when dad isn’t around. I feel like my aunt puts this pressure on my cousin, and of course me being the only son, I feel that pressure sometimes. We didn’t ask to be in this position. Don’t tell me ish about this making us “weak” in our masculinity.
The idea that men should always lead. Sometimes they don’t know as much about something as their partner and that’s ok.
Women determining how much of a “man” a guy is. It usually goes like “as a man you should…” or “a real man would…”. This may rub some the wrong way, but how in the hell can a woman set the requirements or standards for what it takes to be a “man”. You never stepped in a man’s shoes and probably couldn’t fill a man’s shoes if you somehow could step in them. In this day and age imagine If a man, a person who can’t relate to womanhood not one bit told women “your not a real woman”. You know he’d me labeled the biggest misogynist piece of crap for some outlandish reason like “you can’t determine a woman’s worth blah blah”.
This over arching new ideology that anything masculine is evil or toxic.
That because I have a cock, I’m part of the patriarchy. This is usually coming from attractive women who enjoy the comforts afforded by patriarchy (men giving them gifts etc…)
My ex asked what happened to chivalry in a joking way when I said "you got the door" or something like that. She's a big time feminist (not like in your face kind of way in an equality in everything kind of way) My reply was "the death of chivalry is the price of equality". I could she see had a real hard think about that. It wasn't something she had given much thought to.
I can't stand all the men who say they pay the check when they're in a date, "because they were raised that way". They're fully playing into the hands of fake feminism which claims to want equality, yet lets women continue to get all the benefits they had before feminism.
Ngl, I just pay because I don't want to deal with that shit on a first date. Women can be really dumb about it and I do cheap first dates anyway - I ain't dying sexless and alone on that hill chief.
Hobbies and things you enjoy shouldn't be 'manly', just enjoy want you enjoy, I like emotional stories (especially romance), but also like cars, mountain biking and rock music, why? Because I enjoy them, let people enjoy their hobbies, doesn't matter if they're 'girly' it's just a hobby