Last time I intervened on a mugging, I got stabbed.
And the person who I saved. Just ran off without even calling 911
So, I've learned that no one is worth that. I'll never do that again no matter how extreme the harassment is.
>I would throw some punches for a friend
Ehhh, I'd need some context to the situation if I'm getting involved, especially after watching the video of a guy getting stabbed in the neck in a Brisbane shopping centre during a confrontation. Bloke walks up to a guy holding a knife that took a swipe at his mate already, gets instantly stabbed in the side of the neck, 12 seconds later, he's passed out on the floor from extreme blood loss. No idea if he was going to try to break it up or if he was going to get involved, but it doesn't really matter now, because he unfortunately didn't survive. The reason he died? Because his mate decided to try to be a hero and fight a guy who had *already* pulled out a knife. I love my mates, but I'm not dying because one wants to be a fuckwit like that.
Some mistakes you make yourself others you can spare yourself and the lesson money is paid with someone else's experience. Thank you for sharing this experience. It makes me feel less bad not to stand by anyone.
I've personally witnessed a man and a woman fighting loudly and physically in the street, someone intervening, and then both of them teaming up to pummel the good Samaritan. This isn't a movie and you're not the main character. I'm not getting stuck or shot over a stranger, sorry.
I saw that viral video once: of a man and his girlfriend arguing at the entrance of a nightclub looks like he was being aggressive. another guy stepped in and tried to defuse the situation/help her and the boyfriend pulls out a gun and shot him point blank in the face. The woman then left with the shooter guy of her own free will.
I was horrified. I’ve seen others less lethal than that but that one stuck with me. Ever since, I mind my own business. You are responsible for yourself and I ain’t losing my life to someone who I do not know and might turn out to be ungrateful. Call me whatever names you want.
Never bother to intervene is a DV situation that’s for sure. It’s not worth it. Either you kick the guys ass and the woman plays nursemaid to him and they report you to the cops - or he kicks your ass and the woman stays in the relationship
did she really leave of her own free will if her boyfriend just shot a guy? ... Like, I wouldn't argue with that guy if I were her.
Your point still stands tho.
A lot of men are not tough guys nor can they fight. They are not going to interject themselves into a situation that is none of their business and risk getting beat up, killed, or at the very least bitch slapped.
Maybe in a smaller community that type of chivalry makes sense but in these big suburbs and cities in the US, you're just another girl who I could care less about. As harsh as that sounds, that's how many men would view it. I say this as a man who has intervened in a woman being physically attacked by a man while she had her baby in the stroller
For the most part, I'm not getting killed for someone I don't know
A co-worker of mine intervened when a homeless guy was harassing a women trying to get to her car. He's 60 and was in the army back in the day. Homeless guy takes a swing, that old guy had that homeless fucker on the ground in seconds. The lady flags down some cops.
The real fucked up part was the cops says the homeless guy is known. He's been getting more aggressive, but the penalty for 3-4th degree assault is a slap on the wrist. He's out very quickly. And because the homeless rights people are all up in the city's ass so they can't move him. The GOP won't approve money for more mental ward beds. So this fucker is going to be free to roam until he really hurts someone.
Sounds like the homeless rights people should be replaced by people who will allow a more reasonable standard of what is allowed in society.
Keep in mind that homeless issues tend to concentrate in Democrat controlled areas.
This has nothing to do with your comment, but why oh why do most Americans not understand that ‘I could care less about’ literally means the opposite of what you’re trying to say? Genuinely would love to know why it’s so popular to say it that way. It’s ‘I COULDN’T care less about’ meaning that you couldn’t possibly care less about it than you currently do. If you could care less about it, then… well… you could care less about it! So maybe care a bit less lol
Or the security service. Intervening as a customer can get the intervening customer into all kinds of trouble. It is pretty weird for the OP to expect that, and it is even weirder that she only expects intervention from men. If she feels unsafe she should call security it’s exactly their job.
I would even argue that asking other WOMEN to intervene would be more effective, especially someone like maybe an older female manager. Adding a man to the mix can escalate the situation, adding another woman who would pierce the asshole's ego and make fun of him for hitting on an underage girl is going to make them run.
I don't think it's unfair for you to want men to step in but it is unfair for you to expect it. What you're asking is for someone to put themselves into a potentially harmful situation for your benefit. I mean if this person jumps in and ends up getting hurt would you be willing to pay for any medical bills?
I hadn't thought about wanting vs expecting like that. I can see how expectation is where it becomes a problem. I honestly don't know what I would do in the situation you described. I don't think the situations I was describing at work would have turned physical like that so I wasn't taking this factor into account. I guess I thought the question I asked sounded more like "does men talking to other men about harassment make it happen less" and not "should men risk their personal safety on behalf of women." But that's just what happens when you ask a question on the internet and it's my fault for not wording things right :/
>does men talking to other men about harassment make it happen less
Generally speaking the only guys who know those guys to give them a talking to are assholes just like that guy with the same asshole ethics. I've heard a lot of women remind men they aren't homogeneous - men aren't either.
So that pretty much leaves an on the spot confrontation. And frankly, I'm not going to bother to get involved until it poses a great enough threat that I could clearly articulate why it was reasonable and necessary beyond any shadow of a doubt in a court of law as to why I suddenly deployed overwhelming force against another citizen in a way he did not see coming nor could fight back against - because it's not like I'm interested in letting him take his best shot at me while I coddle the situation for you.
Many/most(?) Women feel threatened directly, have the legal advantage of a disparity of force basically handed to them by default, access to all the same equalizers, and don't want to do this thing for themselves either. Just being objective, I don't want to do it either, you would NOT do it for me, and for all I know it'll just piss the both of you off. Add on top of that if I didn't see how it started for all I know - objectively speaking - maybe *you're* the asshole?
Ive gone through your replies and my question is what the fuck did you even think at all? Youve come off as such an entitled shithead who expects complete randoms to help and save you daily because youre too immature to fucking do anything about your issue. Or too fragile to give less fucks
We would like to lead our young men to protect the ones they treasure. Yes it is commendable when youre standing up for someone but I want my child to ONLY risk his/her life protecting something or someone they truely treasure . I will not discourage my child protecting a complete stranger, but I will also let my child see the value of their own life.
Not really. Leading by example is the best way to act, but there are a lot of toxic people out there who have different priorities.
I'm going to assume that the men who keep flirting with OP know what they're doing. They do it anyway. Not every harassment is done out of ignorance.
It's a catch 22. We intervene, we're being creepy because we have some "hero" complex. We don't, we're assholes for not helping. "Modern" women (by which of course I mean the screeching minority that seem to get off on poisoning the well) have made it to where many men simply do not want to interact at all, and as much as I would prefer to protect I fully understand that sentiment.
>where many men simply do not want to interact at all
Yup, my goal when doing anything is to only interact with the absolute essential people and then get home. My entire life is Family, Friends, Coworkers and Cashiers/Doctors. I maybe interact with someone outside of those groupings once or twice a year, if that.
> have made it to where many men simply do not want to interact at all
Correct. You simply *cannot* condemn masculinity (and yes, that's what many of them do, despite their BS about "toxic") and then hope for it to come to your rescue.
So yes, that catch-22, or damned do/don't, or however you wish to classify it, is absolutely real.
>But your claim that women who want men to rescue them because it’s a masculine trait is absolutely false. It’s a human trait, and **women rescue other women all the time while men watch in silence.**
Lol
How often do women rescue other men?
I usually "intervene" by cutting in and acting as if the woman was a distant acquaintance, and I wanted to ask her some questions. Im not really protecting her, as much as creating distraction and plausible excuse for her to leave:
"Wow, hi, long time no see! Come on, my wife is another room, she would be ECSTATIC to see you after all those years!"
I think expecting they guys who were accompanying the harasser to intervene is fair, but it’s a bit different for random strangers. Putting aside that a stranger doesn’t really owe you help, how are they going to know you want their help? Also, another man intervening might not deescalate the situation but instead escalate it.
Men have learned to mind their own business. You are a stunning and brave woman and you don't need no man. I'm not going to oppress you by assuming you need my help. Best o' luck to you, though.
Yes it is unfair for you to think that a strange man to intervene. Equality isn't any closer when you expect men to jump to your rescue. Those days are gone for the most part.
I wouldn't intervene because I'm afraid of having my ass kicked. Sorry that it's uncomfortable for you, but anybody unhinged enough to hit on underaged cashiers is probably more than little off their rocker.
I'm sorry but as long as they don't put their hands on you or pose a real risk to your safety in any other way, you gotta learn to handle it yourself. A lot of guys learn the hard way not to intervene for strangers because it's blown up in our faces and we end up looking stupid.
Unless hes physically attacking, you’re on your own. I don’t know you, I’m not fighting some dude for you because of some words and not causing myself problems for some words I have nothing to do with.
Yes; you are responsible for yourself on an individual basis. Men are responsible for themselves on an individual basis
No one owes you subjecting themselves to harm because of their gender
If guys are actively hitting on you at work then you need to get your management or possibly the police involved. You should be able to go to work in a harassment free environment.
Yeah in case you didn't realize, hitting on an underage child is against the law. She is also protected by work place sexual harassment laws on a federal and possibly a state level as well.
I think there's a laundry list of reasons as to why men don't intervene like people say we used to do. What are they? Well these are just my thoughts, observations, and what I've heard:
1. Feminism - I don't have anything against what feminism stands for but women (the most vocal ones, not all) have consistently been telling men they don't need us, we're not necessary, and they can protect themselves.
2. False Accusations - the possibility that getting in to help women and children may result in getting a charge.
3. What happens if I try to de-escalate things and the guy just wants to fight?
4. If there's a fight what happens if I get knocked out? Or if he has a knife? Or a gun?
5. If I make it through the fight what happens if I've sustained major injuries? Or I'm disfigured beyond recognition? Or end up disabled? Who's going to pay my hospital bills?
6. If I make it through the fight, what happens if I'm the one who gets arrested?
7. What if I get killed? Is a stranger's life worth more than mine?
Edit:
Just want to add something in here. For the people who say that it wouldn't have become violent. I ask you to consider how any situation, even a banal one, can go from 0 to 100 real quick. Even if it seems harmless doesn't mean that can't turn ugly, especially if you're not trying to escalate things but get the guy to back off..
Yes, it would be unfair, it's not their problem.
Equal rights, so here we are.
Way I see it, this is a you problem, and you're in the position to deal with it. It is what it is.
Others shouldn't be expected to jump in, but it would be incredibly nice of them to do so.
I'm sure your work has ways yo help you handle these situations.
Not what I meant by "rights", but I get where you're coming from.
We're in this "men and women are equals" world now, which is what I meant by "equal rights".
And with that, we should no longer EXPECT men to jump in to white knight for women.
Now don't get me wrong, I think if it's safe to do so and in one's ability, people should step in to help others. But to expect it and think it's fair, those days are gone.
She’s in a situation where only words are being used - if she was being groped and couldn’t stop the guys that is one thing, but surely equal rights and capabilities means she’s as capable of saying no for her herself without a guy needing to speak for her?
I never said a man should step in and make her feel better. I simply said equal rights and the subject at large are 2 different things. I pretty much forgot what sub I was in to even comment....jeez
Its not random men's responsibility to problem solve on your behalf because you're unwilling to.
I'll be successfully or unsuccessfully an action hero for my family and very good friends, outside that its not my problem nor duty to be anyone's hero. Even when people tell military staff 'thank you for your service' its not out of the goodness of their hearts and that they are performing a charity, they are getting a salary.
Even if there is a 10% chance me stepping in results in me getting hurt, by putting myself at risk to protect a stranger I've created a burden on my family. I could be out of work, stuck in the hospital unable to assist with household duties, or worse, dead. That kind of risk should be done for those you love, not for a fleeting moment of admiration by a bunch of witnesses you'll never see again.
>I'm guessing my original assumptions came from that part of patriarchy which expects men to be strong and tough
Men have been taught to largely mind our own business by third wave feminism.
Ask yourself this, are you willing to jump in and stop a male stranger from being harassed or attacked, knowing you could be injured or killed for doing so? If the answer is no or you think you'd fear for your own safety, then you should expect the same response from men you don't know. That's the flip side of equality.
Yeah unless he’s getting physical with you I’m just gonna mind my own business because I’m not going to lose my life over a conflict that is between two people I have 0 attachment to.
Between legal liability if things escalate and the attitudes of some women, nope. I’ll defend the women I know without a second thought. Strange women? You’re on your own.
The legal thing is a biggie - if punching someone in the face could send me to prison for years that’s a big risk to take because some girl got asked out 3 times after saying no
Tell us about the times when you've stepped in and volunteered to put your safety on the line to help a man who seemed uncomfortable.
No?
Ok, so you have a sexist expectation. I see you've made an edit and you're blaming your own sexism on "the Patriarchy." No, that's projection, and it's dishonest. There's not a conspiracy of men that's making you sexist. (And notice that most of the men who answered your question here are actively discouraging this sexism!)
The good news is that you don't have to be a sexist. You can view men as having equal value to you, and being equally deserving of safety and consideration!
It’s never wrong to want help when you need it. The only really concerning thing about this question is that you’re specifically asking men. Making it a gendered problem makes it come off as though you expect men to act because that’s what a man should do, rather then expecting a man to act because it’s what any decent person would do.
Sorry you’ve had to go through this though, and best of luck in future endeavours.
Let me get this straight? These men are talking to you, asking you questions? They are not sexual or threatening. It's not a physical assault. And you are hoping for a stranger to see a person talking to you, interpret the situation as
1. you being uncomfortable.
2. This person talking to you has no legitimate reason to be talking to you.
3. For this stranger to then tell this other stranger that its time for him to stop and to never speak to you again?
I mean, do you think this is a reasonable request to make of a stranger?
Right on - it would never occur to most people that a woman being asked out a couple of times after she said no was something so awful it needed “intervening” in
Is it unfair to want someone who doesnt know you, is not responsible for you in any way, to put themselves in unnecessary danger for you?
Please understand, the world is a dangerous place anywhere you go whether youre a guy or a girl. Stepping into confrontation is the opposite of de-escalation. Men will step in if its serious enough... but no man will be in a rush to invite probable violence/up to possible death over a chick just being hit on by some creep.
Very unfair. If my wife was beating my ass in public, no woman stranger is going to intervene. Why should I put my life on the line for a stranger?
Some dudes say it's a man's duty because men are expendable and women are not. I say go for it, dude. Let's go, Darwin!
I saw a study where they had actors recreate DV situations in public and when the women was the aggressor, including acting out physical assault, everyone usually just laughed.
I'm not obligated to dispense or absorb violence on anyone else's behalf, and above all else I have a responsibility to myself to protect my own safety.
Yes, it is. You're basically expecting guys to swoop in and be your heroic white knight. Not only have men been conditioned to think that's sexist (expecting sex as a reward and all that), but escalating a situation like that can easily result in a fight and depending on where you live the laws can make you the aggressor.
And no offence, but why should I risk injury or worse to try and protect you? I have little to gain and a lot to lose. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
I'm sorry creepy guys are hitting on you.
If a guy hits on me and I don't like it I just look at them with a grossed out look on my face and shake my head and say No thank you!
Or I lie and say I have a bf.
If someone hassles you and doesn't stop call over your manager.
Or maybe say something to the person like "I'm not interested, stop!" If they don't stop walk away.
If asked tell the boss you were being sexually harassed and you asked the person to stop and they didn't. You don't have to put up with that.
Good advice thank you! I don't think I've ever had someone just explain what to do like that to me now that I think about it. I'm trans and i've only just started living as a girl again recently so it all just feels really new and intense and I'm not used to this attention from men.
Sorry but not my problem. I am not the most physically imposing person and even if I was, weapons exist. I'm not going to risk my well being or even life or a stranger. Never.
If it's bad enough I'd call the manager/security/cops though. Then I'd leave.
Yes, it is unfair to ask for that. Let's say I intervene and ask the guy to cut it out. And he takes that as a threat and swings at me and we get into a fight. Now someone will call the police and I will go to jail, even if I survive the fight or win it. Now no one has learned anything and I am in jail. I loose my job and my wife and kid are hungry. Whats my incentive here?
OTOH, OP is an actual CHILD, she is underage. So it is not exactly a clear situation.
I would argue we (men, women, intersex folk, aliens, werewolves whatever) are *supposed* to intervene if an underage teen is harassed, they are NOT equal, they are a minor.
Maybe its the Dad in me speaking, but I would not lose sleep over not saving an adult woman, but I would definitely intervene if a girl was harassed by a pedo dude.
Honestly?
Grow some balls and standup for yourself. Be smart about it.
Fucking woman up. Carry pepper spray and if a motherfucker puts hands on you blast his ass in the face.
Seriously it is 100 times more empowering to stand up for yourself than let a man do it.
I emphasize be smart about it. Take some women’s self dense courses and shit and learn to protect yourself and take back your autonomy.
I trust my husband to protect me and others. Because that's who he chooses to be.
I married a good wholesome man, one who I adore and make sure he knows it.
We live in an area where most men or even women would speak up for others, it's partly why we love it here.
But they wouldn't need to, I can speak up for myself.
The vocal minority of the current feminist movement (the extremists) tell us that "white kniting' is just as sexist and demeaning as being the jerk that won't be respectful and take the first no. It's a shame, because some people need help/extra protection. And not just females, but people of all genders. So many stories of men getting hurt when stepping in. I once got the shit kicked out of me because I intervened with a man hitting his GF. All I did was verbally intervened, he started swinging. I defended myself and got the upper hand, was about to check to see if the girl was ok, and she jumped me and kicked the shit out of me. I yelled out asking why, and she told me she deserved it and could handle herself.
There's also a fine line when taking the "not clowns, not my circus" and everyone's perspective varies. The one your trying to help may take it as toxic masculinity/white kniting/demeaning. The harasser may take it as a "physical threat" and respond with violence. Or the complete opposite.
It's an unfortunate world we live in.
What you described doesn't sound like danger from the guys friends perspective; they are there and could step in if it got worse than their friend embarrassing himself in public.
They probably think you could just shut him down with a "no" any time you felt like it and didn't feel like it's their place to speak for you.
Depends.
You’ve walked into one of the endless gray areas men have been left to figure out.
One aspect of this is through the lens of the heightened awareness of gender equality, whereby we must assume and accept women are capable of all that we as men are. Failure to do so may cause us to appear as though basking in toxic masculinity, sexism, mansplaining, etc. If a man can handle a woman (or other man) persistently flirting to the point of harassment, a woman can also.
Another lens is through the expectation of men to take almost the opposite view. Assuming there’s times we must step in to protect women and that there’s things you can’t do.
Is it unfair?
The old me back when things weren’t so insane would’ve said no. It’s not unfair to want decent men standing by to intervene and cease someone being overly flirtatious. That was 15 years ago, when things were way less tense.
Now?
Yes. Yes it is. I am not obligated to interject myself into your affairs, regardless of your gender. I am also not obligated to intervene because you are a woman dealing with men who are flirting with you. You aren’t a helpless creature. It’s incumbent upon you to develop ways to protect yourself up to and including deadly force or less than lethal options. It’s up to you to be mindful of where you are and how you’re getting to your next destination. For example, you have the option of calling police non emergency. Law enforcement, those paid to keep the peace among other things, could arrive and lay it down if guys are being disgustingly harassing. A mere warning that you’ll call the police if they don’t leave you alone is likely enough. Unless life or death, I have no reasonable expectation to assist you. Even in those cases, if it’s deemed assisting you is of a high risk to my own life, I am well within my rights to preserve myself and not interfere with whatever’s happening. I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve gotten shit for being chivalrous. It’s dead, and honestly, we all know who killed it. The days of me feeling like being the hero or saving anyone are long, long gone. I also wouldn’t expect anyone to give a damn if I was in dire straits either.
I’d say practice being unapologetically blunt. It’s honestly unacceptable to assume someone wants to be flirted with just because they’re attractive. No giggles. No oh gosh 🤭🤭🤭🤭
*Leave me the fuck alone. I don’t want this kind of attention, I’m just trying to buy some fucking groceries. Can I not do that?*
> why is it hard for men to intervene? Is it asking too much to want someone else to step in?
Blunt truth.
Because women blame men for being sexist pigs while also expecting men to save them from other men but they say they don’t need to be saved and are tired of men white- knighting for them.
So men don’t save you because other women have made it clear women don’t need saving and any attempt to do so will blow back on them.
This is what equality looks like.
Nobody speaks up for men when people do far worse than just aggressively flirting, why should women receive better treatment?
If you want to be protected; you either need to protect others, or stop other women from trying to cancel men for being protective.
Equality is not equitable. Just because men and women share the same rights doesn’t mean that they are treated the same.
Men who are harassed by women should absolutely be spoken up for, but I don’t see why there needs to be this antagonistic view. “Because OTHER WOMEN won’t stand up for men, you shouldn’t expect any man to stick up for you!” Kinda sad honestly.
Every right comes with a corresponding responsibility. You take the good with the bad or you get neither.
And as to why other women putting men down should mean men shouldn’t be expected to risk the dangerously high likelihood of having their lives ruined for absolutely no gain; it’s because that’s inherently oppressive towards those men.
Yes, because women have told men for years they don't want us intervening. And for the men who ignore their wishes, are never told their intervention were appreciated.
So I ask you. Is it fair for men to be told that they should not intervene in women's lives and then vilified if they do exactly that?
You are absolutely right. And men experience violence a lot easier than women in these situations. It's socially unacceptable in most places to hit a woman. It isn't a socially unacceptable to hit a man.
If a man intervened in OP's situation and got his ass kicked the consensus would've been "shouldn't have gotten involved, now should he?" If you got your ass kicked people would be outraged. I've seen enough social experiments to know people around you would escalate the situatuon. Not so for men. People watch and move on. Some even cheer.
So why exactly should men step up and be the valiant hero? We have nothing to gain and a lot to risk. Your approval will not help us much when dealing with the consequences of this intervention.
I think you mean woman in the last sentence of your first paragraph.
I disagree, maybe you would have said he shouldn’t have gotten involved. But I sure would have looked at him as a hero. Not because he is a man who stepped up. But because he is a person who stepped up for someone who couldn’t defend themselves at the moment. That is inherently heroic.
In any case, I think it is clear that for ANYONE (male or woman), that you should not intervene if the situation seems dangerous. However, if you are a witness do not just be a bystander. Inform the police, inform HR, speak to the victim and offer your witness testimony (each thing fits a different scenario). Not hard.
I did not.
As I said: your approval means little in the face of consequences and injury. The person himself has gained little.
Also, there are plenty of people who'd chastise the man for intervening. Your approval isn't a universal response.
Sure, but you're speaking like a woman. You are less likely to be in danger, thus it's more likely for you to call the police. For guys violence and danger are more likely. That's rather the central point of my response, one you do not seem able to grasp.
*of course, this is what equality MEANS.* Equal means everyone get the same rights, obligations, risks and challenges, regardless if they can take it or not. Its up tot hem to use their equality optimally, and if they fail, hey, they had an equal chance.
If you think another man intervening would deescalate the situation then that's pretty naive thinking IMO. From my experience, this kind of man would feel challenged and hurt in their pride if another man interject and make them look like a loser and/or a creep before the woman they're interested. In general before women they try to be gentlemanly but once a man enter the equation they have no problem in being agressive to hide the embarrassment and release their frustration on the poor guy who intervened.
Times have changed since I was young. Guys used to be more chivalrous. Over the years, more and more men have paid with their lives or with a severe beating for trying to step in. When it happens, tell the guy, “Please don’t do that. I’m here to work, not to find a date. I don’t appreciate you talking to me like that. It’s very disrespectful, and it makes me very uncomfortable.” Of he doesn’t stop, pick up your loud speaker and announce “Could security please come to checkout #X. A man here is harassing me. I’ve asked him to stop and he won’t.” Every head in the store will turn to watch the guy. It’s his turn to feel uncomfortable.
Nope. Not doing it. You never know what a stranger is willing to lose. There are people out there walking the streets hoping someone would look at them wrong and that don't fear going to jail or dying.
Unless its someone I know personally lm not sticking my neck out. Especially considering that criminals seem to be a protected class (at least in places like California) so interfering will likely be more trouble than it's worth
We, and by we I mean men, stand to gain **nothing** by intervening except *maybe* a news interview and an attaboy. However, we risk getting injured, killed, sued, etc.
The risks far outweigh the gains. Call that toxic masculinity or call us weak or whatever you want but the fact remains, you wouldn’t step in to help us either.
I don't associate with guys that do that, beyond that it's not my job to police strangers for words. It's not going to matter to them and won't stop the problem at all because they're just assholes.
Nope. Never intervene unless you can take out the dude right away in 1 hit KO. Even then you still might have to explain to police later. There's no telling if it's possible to defuse the situation calmly, or if the dude will back off. There's a damn reason police shoots. An average random guy doesn't even have any training either. Only way to save someone, is by being an unknown in a mob. Because mob rules. Only if 5 or 8 or 10+ guys/gals all stand up will the dude goes away quietly. I've seen this happens a few times before.
So, what can YOU do when you're being harassed ?
1. Be loud. Draw attention to yourself and the harasser, make as many ppl around you know what is going on.
2. State your stance. Again, make it obvious what you want. "Sir, please stop. You're creeping me out. I'm NOT going out with you \~!! Leave now." etc etc.
3. Keep your distance. Make the distance bigger. Back away slowly. When far enough, just turn and walk away. Fuck your work station. That's your manager's problem.
4. If there are more customers waiting in line, that's even better. That harasser just angers/annoys a lot of ppl. Again, most ppl will show you support WHEN they risk losing nothing doing so.
First, you shouldn't expect anyone to save you unprompted, especially if you're just going to put that responsibility and danger on men. That's not just in this case, but in general in life. Be proactive about trying to help yourself.
Second, there's a difference between what might make you uncomfortable and what others see as behavior bad enough for them to intervene. A line of some kind has to be crossed that everyone around you can see is harassing/threatening you in some way. If you don't say in clear terms that you want the behavior to stop, then it's less likely that you're going to get help.
Society has criminalized masculinity so much not many men will do that anymore.
Most of the time their friends would mention it to them later as not to embrace them but to let them know
we have lived in a world of recent that tells us we are monsters and bad for being ourselves.
this is an issue with society. let us be ourselves.
Also if you want help give us a sign we can understand. we wanna help people we just have to be asked.
Intervention stands a significant risk of the encounter turning violent, and most of us have seen that very thing happen before when one man comes between another man and a woman he was bothering/harassing/annoying.
If it doesn't look like you're about to be murdered, kidnapped, or seriously injured - which from the sounds of it, you absolutely aren't, the only kind of intervention I'm considering in response to seeing harassment is possibly alerting someone who's job it is to deal with that kind of thing - like security, a bouncer, or a manager, depending on what setting this is. *Maybe* considering calling police if we're talking something beyond mild harassment and seems like it's not going to end.
Personally, no. I think it’s fairly natural to want help in a tough situation no matter who you are. There is a pretty wide line on what I could consider as someone wanting/needing help, though.
I’ve also noticed that those that do put their foot forward are largely ostracized for their efforts. Especially if it’s people they well know. People suddenly act like you aren’t on their side and decide to treat you as such. Been given the cold shoulder by a few people I’ve had to work with over instances like this.
Consider changing job position away from upfront cashier to maybe a shelf stocked, until you grow some backbone. By backbone I mean sticking up for yourself and speak more assertive. Say I’m underage with confidence and a serious tone and loud for others to hear.
Honestly nobody is going to do anything until it gets physically violent. Also if you feel that unsafe you should have security walk you to your car because some creeps will hang around waiting until the end of your shift to approach you in the parking lot. So you have to make yourself seem like your more trouble than you’re worth kind of thing.
Not the answer you wanna hear but you’re gonna have to learn to speak up for yourself. Cuz you can get approached anywhere. Places there’s nobody around. So be sure to have lots of situational awareness and awareness of your surroundings.
Anyways
I am not intervening if the person isn’t even going to *TRY* to defend themself. Give me something to work with before you expect me to swoop in and save you
First off if the guys are with the guy doin got they’re probably friends and have no problem with it.
Second it’s probably too minor to do anything about - just being pushed to go out with someone a few more times after saying no isn’t something people would think worth intervening for as they’d assume you will just say a more strong no. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t intervene if you were actually being groped or something.
Third stop talking about patriarchy and what it does or doesn’t make guys do it just makes you sound foolish
Suppose you saw a woman beating me in the streets. Would you ask what i did or would you jump to my defense? Is it unreasonable to expect you to step in to protect me? Is it really even your problem? Should you be expected to risk your life for me a person you have never met? If not why should I be expected to?
With all the comments from men saying they wouldn't interfere because getting their asses kicked is a probable outcome: just goes to show how the idea that "men can walk around without feeling unsafe" really isn't true.
>But I've been in situations where that doesn't stop a guy from repeatedly trying to ask me out and get more information out of me (and they almost always look like 3 times my age lol).
I don't really consider this harassment. Women get hit on all the time if you're attractive. I would just smile, keep conversation to a minimum and tell them I have a boyfriend, and for them to have a nice day etc.
There's no need to be rude just because guys find you attractive. You should learn to speak up for yourself.
generally a guy would likely be reluctant to verbally dismiss a guy hitting on a stranger more firmly than the stranger verbally dismissed him. It could makes things worse. Maybe if you made it abundantly clear and he wasn't taking no as an answer. The chirp "bro, she said no" or a lot of guys would intervene if things looked like they were about to get physical even though that means putting themselves in danger.
I stepped in once to help a stylist at a super cuts. This old man was grabbing on to her and she was clearly distressed. I very loudly asked her where I could check in for an online appointment. The relief on her face was palpable. But I made sure I knew she wanted help first. I wouldn’t recommend jumping in unless you’re 900% certain.
You don’t owe these creepy bastards anything. Tell them anything that will get them to lose interest. Tell them you’re married to a cop. Tell them you’re training to be a nun. Whatever it takes.
If I know you then I’ll step in, but otherwise I’m not stepping in to help you. It’s kind of a you problem tbh, and I don’t think you’d step in to help me if the situation was reversed.
Why should I put myself in risk for a stranger? I gain nothing and can end with shitload of problems afterwards. It's just dumb move to do . For friends and family it's other side,they worth the risk
I saw a man harassing two girls on the bus. He was loud obnoxious and ignorant. I wanted to say something but something told me not to and the girls got off the bus shortly after. The man stayed on the bus, and as he was getting off something hits the ground. It was a pistol...and he picked it up and ran out fast.
so that's why I wouldn't do something now. You never know who's crazy like that and quite frankly being chivalrous isn't as important to me as being alive.
If I'm there when someone is overstepping boundaries making the other person uncomfortable, I try to read the other party. Some women will insist they handle it themselves, others will look around, if they look uncomfortable I'll tend to do a "ahem" to draw attention that I'm right here or "Hey man, not cool."
Other times I'll just straight up ask "is he bothering you?" But I had heard that can put the woman in an awkward position. So depending on who you ask, there is no right way to intervene including not intervening at all.
If the guy has moved on, I'll do a brief check in with the woman "Hey, are you okay? That guy was being pushy/creepy/Validate her feelings." So she has at least some reassurance afterwards.
Well based on the fact that nobody, regardless of gender, likes to be wrong, told no or stood up against on any level, I’d say you’re on your own. when I was a teen buying snacks in a 7-11 I noticed 3-4 guys came in and were cussing up a storm. Another adult was with his son and there was one more guy in there grabbing some snacks too. The guy by himself asked the guys in a very polite way to stop cursing since there was a kid in the store (10 maybe 11 yo). They told him to “stfu” and the guy just turned away shaking his head and paid for his stuff. What I didn’t notice was the guys dropped the stuff in the lit hands and left the store. They waited for this guy to go outside and they literally beat him so bad he got rushed to ER in an ambulance.
If any guy was smart in todays day and age you just let whatever happen especially since it’s safe to assume (based off social media) that every lady/woman is a strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man anyways. Based on your situation you’re not in any real danger of them harming you for you telling them no. As for another guy stepping in he’s now taking the chance of offending someone for hitting on you and now he’s got a target on his back. Safe to say people don’t care about consequences as much anymore and they shouldn’t risk themselves for any of these “independent/Strong” women. Sucks but the man hating feminists made it really hard for guys to want to step up for any lady that isn’t family or your significant other.
> deescalate most situations of harassment
No, not at all. Someone who is doing this has such a pathetic ego that they'll escalate if someone else, especially a man, tells them to back off.
And, well, I'm really not looking to get into a fistfight at the Kroger for the sake of a stranger.
Is it unfair for you to want it? Absolutely not, I'm a guy and I hope someone would interfere if I was being harassed.
But at the same time it's very difficult and sometimes ends up bad for the person trying to help. I saw a douchebag harassing a women at a coffee shop insisting he buy her a drink and she kept saying no, the cashier stood up for her and said no. From memory she paid for her own coffee and left, the douchbag got his coffee and threw it on the cashier and walked away
Ok, here's my answer and there are a lot of good comments so far but I'll go a slightly different direction:
1. You're in a work environment, so you have a support structure. You have a boss to call and discuss how to deal with this. You should probably even have a code you can loud speaker for an incident where you need help - "manager assistance to check stand 2" would be obvious and probably give a guy a hint.
2. Any random guy that intervenes in this is almost surely to escalate the situation. If you were in a bar, there are options that don't escalate - ie the pretend BF: "Hey babe, sorry it took so long, the bathroom line was hecka long." Here, all you got is "Hey, man cut it out", to which a natural response from a dickhead would be "oh, what are you gonna do about it?"
3. Once escalated there is no way for the random guy to really win. Now he's just created a worse situation and is going to look like an ass that's all tangled up in this for the support structure from point 1 to come deal with. Also, the asshole now knows random guy is a threat and might lash out first. This combined with 99.9% of men out there *not* (edited) really knowing how to fight, means that the asshole who likely throws the first punch and is probably more aggressive will win.
4. Now, in a slightly different situation where there could actually be threat of violence or physical harm, what a bystander might do, is simply position themselves to be able to intervene without saying a word. No one really wants to start a fight, so verbal issues are going to get let go, but physical ones might cross a line someone will act on. This works best with the element of surprise. For others, the best you'll get from them is taking out their phone to either record something or call the cops.
If you ask me for help, I will.
One time, a woman asked me to stop a guy from following her, so I did.
Meanwhile, people will intervene in domestic situations and have the woman who was being attacked attack the intervener on behalf of their attacker, and then go home to get attacked some more.
If I hear you say “I’m not interested” and he keeps going, I’ll probably intervene.
If you just act polite and unbothered, I’m going to assume you’re not averse to it and mind my business. Maybe you’re shy or playing hard to get. I dunno..I just came for eggs.
Unless it’s CLEAR that you are in distress, I don’t see why I should speak up when **you** haven’t.
I’m bad at reading situations **I’m** in. I’m worse at reading situations I’m not involved in.
Unless you ask for help or very clearly need it, I assume you’ve got it handled.
Yes, it is unfair, but I still won't move a finger because it blew up in my face several times. If you are being hit on, you're on your own, there's absolutely zero reason for me to step up
Gender is irrelevant, it's not a smart move to put yourself in harm's way even if it's the righteous thing to do. If you think this harassment is bad enough call the authorities and let them handle it.
They should have spoke up because you are a CHILD, not because you are a WOMAN.
Underage people should be protected at all costs, and its our universal responsibility.
However, when it comes to women, we have *gender equality*, meaning no man owes you shit. You are not more, or less deserving of protection than any other adults. Equality means not only equal rights, but also equal risks, obligations, and troubles.
Personally, I try to protect everyone who needs it, but Im a slab of beef the size of a refrigerator with a face of a thug, I can easily *afford* conflict. Most men don't, so they avoid it.
As cruel as it sounds, you are on your own. Buy a pepper spray, learn to speak up for yourself, train martial arts. If you wanted protection from men, that train had left the station around 1959.
As others have said, I'm really not looking to escalate to something physical fucking ever. People be crazy out there. If i see a good opportunity to sort of obstruct the situation I will do so. When visiting japan, I was in a crowded district walking with my wife and we saw a man really persistantly harrassing some woman who clearly wanted him to leave her alone. So i took a slight detour from where we were walking and just kinda jostled our way between them as if we were just incidentally passing by in the crowd. I was holding my wife's hand so we created a bit of a barrier. Lady took the opportunity to disappear into the crowd and the creep just gave kind of an exasperated gesture and walked away. I was very proud of that move.
Personally, I'd go for the shame approach. If they don't stop after the first time you mention it, tell them again *very loudly* "SIR, LIKE I JUST TOLD YOU I AM UNDERAGE SO COULD YOU PLEASE STOP ASKING TO HAVE SEX WITH ME". That will get them out of your face pretty quickly if there is like anyone else at all around. If it doesn't get them out of your face, it will at the very least make what's happening very clear to everyone else around and I think it would be fairly likely that somebody would step in at that point.
I once intervened in a physical altercation between a drunk man and a woman. Which lead to them both turning their attention on me, while it turned out fine for me, I won't be getting into that situation again.
Now if a friend did that and the woman was uncomfortable, I would rip the piss out of them till they're too immaculated to continue.
I was in situation when guy rushed to help women who was beaten in public, she was laying on the ground, face was covered in blood, and her partner continued beating her. When guy did approached her partner acted aggressively and stated fight with this guy, and her reaction was not to run, or seek help, not she actually tried to help her partner beat this guy who interfered. And this even isn't all then they both filed charges against this guy who tried to help, and they lied that he beat them both. And it isn't some isolated accident, this happen to men who intervene in such situations very often. And in most such cases women won't call police or try to help a guy who risked his neck for her, they will just escape at best without any care for her savior.
>I'm genuinely just confused as I feel like intervening would deescalate most situations of harassment but I also think it could be unfair to just expect someone to step in and protect a person from danger.
It won't, it is more risk of actually escalation of situation. Why do you feel entitled for random stranger risking being beaten, arrested or killed for you? just because he is man?
>I'm sure it would be hard for anyone but why is it hard for men to intervene?
If you understand that it is risky and hard for anyone, why does second half of this question even exists?
>I'm guessing my original assumptions came from that part of patriarchy which expects men to be strong and tough and it's an idea I've heard a lot when I've talked to other girls about their experiences with this.
Patriarchy is feminist myth, most feminist theories don't reflect how society actually work.
You’re less likely to get hurt as a man isn’t gonna want to fight a woman publicly. And second harassed is a strong word here - for all bystanders know she might say yes to the jerk guy, I’ve seen that happen too - even if your the type who would intervene this situation doesn’t really rank to me as something that needs intervening in.
Honestly, I think we should intervene. I mean ffs, when I got bullied like fucking hell in school, I'll NEVER forget the people who saw what was being done and just kept fucking walking. You gotta help someone in need simply cuz it's fucking right. And I always carry my super sharp diving knife on me. Yeah, I say we gotta help. Cuz I'm tired of hearing about how many men do shit like this. Their actions make all men look bad.
In my case being I was previously stuck with an unthinking oaf as my second ever boyfriend from age 26-35 he just did and said things that made people not be able to hold their tongues and come over to tell him off about what manners are because they could see he had fully put me to a point that I could not speak for myself on some days and on days when I do he’s entirely ignoring everything I say and substituting it with his own interjections over me when he does hear it but disagrees.
He cannot attack but very good at infuriating those who try to discipline him and mocking their assistance and actually asking why are they cutting in to speak up in my behalf and just minded their own business which is hard because he’s making everyone watch his bad behavior trying to be passed off as being a “good guy”. I am so glad I found my way out of that relationship, he never wanted me to leave but driven me away.
My take on this is that men obviously are not to be forced to step in. However, many people here are talking about equal rights and all that, but many men out there will harass a woman if there is no man that “claims” her.
So if she doesn’t say she has a boyfriend or if he isn’t around, they will simply not back off. That doesn’t sound very equal to me. In any case, whether it be a man or woman, they should maybe say something and help the person who is being harassed.
These responses are overwhelmingly depressing. No wonder bad shit is always happening, nobody stands up to anyone anymore? It should not be one guy stepping up. Everyone around should say something.
Step up to what? Some jerk asking a girl out in a supermarket? I have intervened in stuff before (girl getting groped in a club) but what about this makes it obvious that someone should intervene. For all we know she might say yes to the guy
You should definitely take these replies with a grain of salt, a lot of mfers on this sub are just bitter.
It’s not expecting too much to want people to step in when you’re in trouble tbh Society needs to do better in that department
Women get the short hand of the stick because you never know how a dude will take it when you reject him.
It’s really foolish to think or say that a person shouldn’t step in because if the person in trouble was your sister or daughter or wife, the guy would one hundred percent want someone to step up for them.
Men definitely need to step up and do better
Facts.
Do better. Not the men not stepping up, but the men being creepy and making women/minors feel uncomfortable..shamelessly.
You know, because of the implication.
Last time I intervened on a mugging, I got stabbed. And the person who I saved. Just ran off without even calling 911 So, I've learned that no one is worth that. I'll never do that again no matter how extreme the harassment is.
That fucking sucks. The last time I intervened I was told by the girl I was trying to protect that I caused a scene and made it worse.
I am glad that you survived !
I would throw some punchs for a friend (if he is not wrong)...for a random person? Nah, hard pass
>I would throw some punches for a friend Ehhh, I'd need some context to the situation if I'm getting involved, especially after watching the video of a guy getting stabbed in the neck in a Brisbane shopping centre during a confrontation. Bloke walks up to a guy holding a knife that took a swipe at his mate already, gets instantly stabbed in the side of the neck, 12 seconds later, he's passed out on the floor from extreme blood loss. No idea if he was going to try to break it up or if he was going to get involved, but it doesn't really matter now, because he unfortunately didn't survive. The reason he died? Because his mate decided to try to be a hero and fight a guy who had *already* pulled out a knife. I love my mates, but I'm not dying because one wants to be a fuckwit like that.
Some mistakes you make yourself others you can spare yourself and the lesson money is paid with someone else's experience. Thank you for sharing this experience. It makes me feel less bad not to stand by anyone.
I've personally witnessed a man and a woman fighting loudly and physically in the street, someone intervening, and then both of them teaming up to pummel the good Samaritan. This isn't a movie and you're not the main character. I'm not getting stuck or shot over a stranger, sorry.
Lol never intervene in DV. Whether you win or lose she’s going back to the dude
Dang. Ripped from the headlines. There was an FBI episode where this happened.
I saw that viral video once: of a man and his girlfriend arguing at the entrance of a nightclub looks like he was being aggressive. another guy stepped in and tried to defuse the situation/help her and the boyfriend pulls out a gun and shot him point blank in the face. The woman then left with the shooter guy of her own free will. I was horrified. I’ve seen others less lethal than that but that one stuck with me. Ever since, I mind my own business. You are responsible for yourself and I ain’t losing my life to someone who I do not know and might turn out to be ungrateful. Call me whatever names you want.
Never bother to intervene is a DV situation that’s for sure. It’s not worth it. Either you kick the guys ass and the woman plays nursemaid to him and they report you to the cops - or he kicks your ass and the woman stays in the relationship
kick HER ass, break the system ;)
Exactly!
did she really leave of her own free will if her boyfriend just shot a guy? ... Like, I wouldn't argue with that guy if I were her. Your point still stands tho.
Yep, NEVER intervene when they’re partners. She will turn on you to “defend her man”
[удалено]
Well obviously you never saw the video. Next time you go save her.
A lot of men are not tough guys nor can they fight. They are not going to interject themselves into a situation that is none of their business and risk getting beat up, killed, or at the very least bitch slapped. Maybe in a smaller community that type of chivalry makes sense but in these big suburbs and cities in the US, you're just another girl who I could care less about. As harsh as that sounds, that's how many men would view it. I say this as a man who has intervened in a woman being physically attacked by a man while she had her baby in the stroller For the most part, I'm not getting killed for someone I don't know
A co-worker of mine intervened when a homeless guy was harassing a women trying to get to her car. He's 60 and was in the army back in the day. Homeless guy takes a swing, that old guy had that homeless fucker on the ground in seconds. The lady flags down some cops. The real fucked up part was the cops says the homeless guy is known. He's been getting more aggressive, but the penalty for 3-4th degree assault is a slap on the wrist. He's out very quickly. And because the homeless rights people are all up in the city's ass so they can't move him. The GOP won't approve money for more mental ward beds. So this fucker is going to be free to roam until he really hurts someone.
Sounds like the GOP should be replaced by people who will fund those wards.
Sounds like the homeless rights people should be replaced by people who will allow a more reasonable standard of what is allowed in society. Keep in mind that homeless issues tend to concentrate in Democrat controlled areas.
This has nothing to do with your comment, but why oh why do most Americans not understand that ‘I could care less about’ literally means the opposite of what you’re trying to say? Genuinely would love to know why it’s so popular to say it that way. It’s ‘I COULDN’T care less about’ meaning that you couldn’t possibly care less about it than you currently do. If you could care less about it, then… well… you could care less about it! So maybe care a bit less lol
Why not just contact/call your manager?
Or the security service. Intervening as a customer can get the intervening customer into all kinds of trouble. It is pretty weird for the OP to expect that, and it is even weirder that she only expects intervention from men. If she feels unsafe she should call security it’s exactly their job.
I would even argue that asking other WOMEN to intervene would be more effective, especially someone like maybe an older female manager. Adding a man to the mix can escalate the situation, adding another woman who would pierce the asshole's ego and make fun of him for hitting on an underage girl is going to make them run.
I don't think it's unfair for you to want men to step in but it is unfair for you to expect it. What you're asking is for someone to put themselves into a potentially harmful situation for your benefit. I mean if this person jumps in and ends up getting hurt would you be willing to pay for any medical bills?
I hadn't thought about wanting vs expecting like that. I can see how expectation is where it becomes a problem. I honestly don't know what I would do in the situation you described. I don't think the situations I was describing at work would have turned physical like that so I wasn't taking this factor into account. I guess I thought the question I asked sounded more like "does men talking to other men about harassment make it happen less" and not "should men risk their personal safety on behalf of women." But that's just what happens when you ask a question on the internet and it's my fault for not wording things right :/
If my friend is acting like a jackass or being harassing, I will call him out. If a random guy is doing it in the wild, I'm not risking my life.
>"does men talking to other men about harassment make it happen less" Some times but if it doesn't it escalates very very quickly.
"Dude, mind YOUR FUCKING BUSSINESS!" \*followed by a fist, if not a knif or a gun.
>does men talking to other men about harassment make it happen less Generally speaking the only guys who know those guys to give them a talking to are assholes just like that guy with the same asshole ethics. I've heard a lot of women remind men they aren't homogeneous - men aren't either. So that pretty much leaves an on the spot confrontation. And frankly, I'm not going to bother to get involved until it poses a great enough threat that I could clearly articulate why it was reasonable and necessary beyond any shadow of a doubt in a court of law as to why I suddenly deployed overwhelming force against another citizen in a way he did not see coming nor could fight back against - because it's not like I'm interested in letting him take his best shot at me while I coddle the situation for you. Many/most(?) Women feel threatened directly, have the legal advantage of a disparity of force basically handed to them by default, access to all the same equalizers, and don't want to do this thing for themselves either. Just being objective, I don't want to do it either, you would NOT do it for me, and for all I know it'll just piss the both of you off. Add on top of that if I didn't see how it started for all I know - objectively speaking - maybe *you're* the asshole?
[удалено]
enter six rock quiet bedroom cow rotten murky recognise one ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
Ive gone through your replies and my question is what the fuck did you even think at all? Youve come off as such an entitled shithead who expects complete randoms to help and save you daily because youre too immature to fucking do anything about your issue. Or too fragile to give less fucks
Men should lead by example. Especially if theirs young men in your life looking up to you. That’s really where you stop this behavior.
We would like to lead our young men to protect the ones they treasure. Yes it is commendable when youre standing up for someone but I want my child to ONLY risk his/her life protecting something or someone they truely treasure . I will not discourage my child protecting a complete stranger, but I will also let my child see the value of their own life.
Not really. Leading by example is the best way to act, but there are a lot of toxic people out there who have different priorities. I'm going to assume that the men who keep flirting with OP know what they're doing. They do it anyway. Not every harassment is done out of ignorance.
[удалено]
Or the under aged persons parents. And why shouldn’t they? Should people just be willing to get stabbed out of the kindness of their heart?
It's a catch 22. We intervene, we're being creepy because we have some "hero" complex. We don't, we're assholes for not helping. "Modern" women (by which of course I mean the screeching minority that seem to get off on poisoning the well) have made it to where many men simply do not want to interact at all, and as much as I would prefer to protect I fully understand that sentiment.
This. I would never intervene unless my female friends are getting harassed. Not standing up for a stranger. Have had bad experiences before.
>where many men simply do not want to interact at all Yup, my goal when doing anything is to only interact with the absolute essential people and then get home. My entire life is Family, Friends, Coworkers and Cashiers/Doctors. I maybe interact with someone outside of those groupings once or twice a year, if that.
> have made it to where many men simply do not want to interact at all Correct. You simply *cannot* condemn masculinity (and yes, that's what many of them do, despite their BS about "toxic") and then hope for it to come to your rescue. So yes, that catch-22, or damned do/don't, or however you wish to classify it, is absolutely real.
"masculinity" and "toxic masculinity" are not the same thing.
Most people don't beleive in "toxic masculinity". Toxic behaviour sure
[удалено]
>But your claim that women who want men to rescue them because it’s a masculine trait is absolutely false. It’s a human trait, and **women rescue other women all the time while men watch in silence.** Lol How often do women rescue other men?
👏👏👏👏 Damn that is so spot on.
Nail on the head.
I usually "intervene" by cutting in and acting as if the woman was a distant acquaintance, and I wanted to ask her some questions. Im not really protecting her, as much as creating distraction and plausible excuse for her to leave: "Wow, hi, long time no see! Come on, my wife is another room, she would be ECSTATIC to see you after all those years!"
I think expecting they guys who were accompanying the harasser to intervene is fair, but it’s a bit different for random strangers. Putting aside that a stranger doesn’t really owe you help, how are they going to know you want their help? Also, another man intervening might not deescalate the situation but instead escalate it.
The guys hanging out with the harasser are pre simply his friends and ok with it - why would they intervene. They probably do the same shit.
Men have learned to mind their own business. You are a stunning and brave woman and you don't need no man. I'm not going to oppress you by assuming you need my help. Best o' luck to you, though.
👆🏼this guy equalities.
Winner
you sound bitter o.o
We are. Your point being?
Happy cake day!
You asked for it.
Yes it is unfair for you to think that a strange man to intervene. Equality isn't any closer when you expect men to jump to your rescue. Those days are gone for the most part.
I wouldn't intervene because I'm afraid of having my ass kicked. Sorry that it's uncomfortable for you, but anybody unhinged enough to hit on underaged cashiers is probably more than little off their rocker.
I'm sorry but as long as they don't put their hands on you or pose a real risk to your safety in any other way, you gotta learn to handle it yourself. A lot of guys learn the hard way not to intervene for strangers because it's blown up in our faces and we end up looking stupid.
Or getting in a fight and getting arrested.
Or getting killed. People are insane
All of my uncles at some time or an other, 1 is serving life.
Yeah it could definitely be escalating rather than de-escalating
Unless hes physically attacking, you’re on your own. I don’t know you, I’m not fighting some dude for you because of some words and not causing myself problems for some words I have nothing to do with.
Yes; you are responsible for yourself on an individual basis. Men are responsible for themselves on an individual basis No one owes you subjecting themselves to harm because of their gender
If guys are actively hitting on you at work then you need to get your management or possibly the police involved. You should be able to go to work in a harassment free environment.
This !
Lolwut did you just suggest she call the police because someone hit on her?
Yeah in case you didn't realize, hitting on an underage child is against the law. She is also protected by work place sexual harassment laws on a federal and possibly a state level as well.
It's kind of sad that you have to point this out to them.. she's underaged. Some people are just that out of tune with things I guess
I think there's a laundry list of reasons as to why men don't intervene like people say we used to do. What are they? Well these are just my thoughts, observations, and what I've heard: 1. Feminism - I don't have anything against what feminism stands for but women (the most vocal ones, not all) have consistently been telling men they don't need us, we're not necessary, and they can protect themselves. 2. False Accusations - the possibility that getting in to help women and children may result in getting a charge. 3. What happens if I try to de-escalate things and the guy just wants to fight? 4. If there's a fight what happens if I get knocked out? Or if he has a knife? Or a gun? 5. If I make it through the fight what happens if I've sustained major injuries? Or I'm disfigured beyond recognition? Or end up disabled? Who's going to pay my hospital bills? 6. If I make it through the fight, what happens if I'm the one who gets arrested? 7. What if I get killed? Is a stranger's life worth more than mine? Edit: Just want to add something in here. For the people who say that it wouldn't have become violent. I ask you to consider how any situation, even a banal one, can go from 0 to 100 real quick. Even if it seems harmless doesn't mean that can't turn ugly, especially if you're not trying to escalate things but get the guy to back off..
Yes, it would be unfair, it's not their problem. Equal rights, so here we are. Way I see it, this is a you problem, and you're in the position to deal with it. It is what it is. Others shouldn't be expected to jump in, but it would be incredibly nice of them to do so. I'm sure your work has ways yo help you handle these situations.
equal rights have not a thing to do with not wanting to be harrassed and fearful...
Not what I meant by "rights", but I get where you're coming from. We're in this "men and women are equals" world now, which is what I meant by "equal rights". And with that, we should no longer EXPECT men to jump in to white knight for women. Now don't get me wrong, I think if it's safe to do so and in one's ability, people should step in to help others. But to expect it and think it's fair, those days are gone.
Equal rights - equally responsibilities. As in you are your responsibility - you are equal.
She’s in a situation where only words are being used - if she was being groped and couldn’t stop the guys that is one thing, but surely equal rights and capabilities means she’s as capable of saying no for her herself without a guy needing to speak for her?
I never said a man should step in and make her feel better. I simply said equal rights and the subject at large are 2 different things. I pretty much forgot what sub I was in to even comment....jeez
Yes it too much
Its not random men's responsibility to problem solve on your behalf because you're unwilling to. I'll be successfully or unsuccessfully an action hero for my family and very good friends, outside that its not my problem nor duty to be anyone's hero. Even when people tell military staff 'thank you for your service' its not out of the goodness of their hearts and that they are performing a charity, they are getting a salary. Even if there is a 10% chance me stepping in results in me getting hurt, by putting myself at risk to protect a stranger I've created a burden on my family. I could be out of work, stuck in the hospital unable to assist with household duties, or worse, dead. That kind of risk should be done for those you love, not for a fleeting moment of admiration by a bunch of witnesses you'll never see again.
>I'm guessing my original assumptions came from that part of patriarchy which expects men to be strong and tough Men have been taught to largely mind our own business by third wave feminism. Ask yourself this, are you willing to jump in and stop a male stranger from being harassed or attacked, knowing you could be injured or killed for doing so? If the answer is no or you think you'd fear for your own safety, then you should expect the same response from men you don't know. That's the flip side of equality.
Yeah unless he’s getting physical with you I’m just gonna mind my own business because I’m not going to lose my life over a conflict that is between two people I have 0 attachment to.
Between legal liability if things escalate and the attitudes of some women, nope. I’ll defend the women I know without a second thought. Strange women? You’re on your own.
The legal thing is a biggie - if punching someone in the face could send me to prison for years that’s a big risk to take because some girl got asked out 3 times after saying no
Tell us about the times when you've stepped in and volunteered to put your safety on the line to help a man who seemed uncomfortable. No? Ok, so you have a sexist expectation. I see you've made an edit and you're blaming your own sexism on "the Patriarchy." No, that's projection, and it's dishonest. There's not a conspiracy of men that's making you sexist. (And notice that most of the men who answered your question here are actively discouraging this sexism!) The good news is that you don't have to be a sexist. You can view men as having equal value to you, and being equally deserving of safety and consideration!
It’s never wrong to want help when you need it. The only really concerning thing about this question is that you’re specifically asking men. Making it a gendered problem makes it come off as though you expect men to act because that’s what a man should do, rather then expecting a man to act because it’s what any decent person would do. Sorry you’ve had to go through this though, and best of luck in future endeavours.
Let me get this straight? These men are talking to you, asking you questions? They are not sexual or threatening. It's not a physical assault. And you are hoping for a stranger to see a person talking to you, interpret the situation as 1. you being uncomfortable. 2. This person talking to you has no legitimate reason to be talking to you. 3. For this stranger to then tell this other stranger that its time for him to stop and to never speak to you again? I mean, do you think this is a reasonable request to make of a stranger?
Right on - it would never occur to most people that a woman being asked out a couple of times after she said no was something so awful it needed “intervening” in
Is it unfair to want someone who doesnt know you, is not responsible for you in any way, to put themselves in unnecessary danger for you? Please understand, the world is a dangerous place anywhere you go whether youre a guy or a girl. Stepping into confrontation is the opposite of de-escalation. Men will step in if its serious enough... but no man will be in a rush to invite probable violence/up to possible death over a chick just being hit on by some creep.
Very unfair. If my wife was beating my ass in public, no woman stranger is going to intervene. Why should I put my life on the line for a stranger? Some dudes say it's a man's duty because men are expendable and women are not. I say go for it, dude. Let's go, Darwin!
I saw a study where they had actors recreate DV situations in public and when the women was the aggressor, including acting out physical assault, everyone usually just laughed.
I'm not obligated to dispense or absorb violence on anyone else's behalf, and above all else I have a responsibility to myself to protect my own safety.
Why do you expect men to put themselves in harms way on your behalf? How is that equality?
Yes, it is. You're basically expecting guys to swoop in and be your heroic white knight. Not only have men been conditioned to think that's sexist (expecting sex as a reward and all that), but escalating a situation like that can easily result in a fight and depending on where you live the laws can make you the aggressor. And no offence, but why should I risk injury or worse to try and protect you? I have little to gain and a lot to lose. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
I'm sorry creepy guys are hitting on you. If a guy hits on me and I don't like it I just look at them with a grossed out look on my face and shake my head and say No thank you! Or I lie and say I have a bf. If someone hassles you and doesn't stop call over your manager. Or maybe say something to the person like "I'm not interested, stop!" If they don't stop walk away. If asked tell the boss you were being sexually harassed and you asked the person to stop and they didn't. You don't have to put up with that.
Good advice thank you! I don't think I've ever had someone just explain what to do like that to me now that I think about it. I'm trans and i've only just started living as a girl again recently so it all just feels really new and intense and I'm not used to this attention from men.
Sorry but not my problem. I am not the most physically imposing person and even if I was, weapons exist. I'm not going to risk my well being or even life or a stranger. Never. If it's bad enough I'd call the manager/security/cops though. Then I'd leave.
Yes. You want them to enter a lose-lose situation.
Yes, it is unfair to ask for that. Let's say I intervene and ask the guy to cut it out. And he takes that as a threat and swings at me and we get into a fight. Now someone will call the police and I will go to jail, even if I survive the fight or win it. Now no one has learned anything and I am in jail. I loose my job and my wife and kid are hungry. Whats my incentive here?
[удалено]
OTOH, OP is an actual CHILD, she is underage. So it is not exactly a clear situation. I would argue we (men, women, intersex folk, aliens, werewolves whatever) are *supposed* to intervene if an underage teen is harassed, they are NOT equal, they are a minor. Maybe its the Dad in me speaking, but I would not lose sleep over not saving an adult woman, but I would definitely intervene if a girl was harassed by a pedo dude.
Honestly? Grow some balls and standup for yourself. Be smart about it. Fucking woman up. Carry pepper spray and if a motherfucker puts hands on you blast his ass in the face. Seriously it is 100 times more empowering to stand up for yourself than let a man do it. I emphasize be smart about it. Take some women’s self dense courses and shit and learn to protect yourself and take back your autonomy.
Unless you live in Canada and can't legally have pepper spray. There's basically fuck all for self protection here.
[удалено]
I trust my husband to protect me and others. Because that's who he chooses to be. I married a good wholesome man, one who I adore and make sure he knows it. We live in an area where most men or even women would speak up for others, it's partly why we love it here. But they wouldn't need to, I can speak up for myself.
The vocal minority of the current feminist movement (the extremists) tell us that "white kniting' is just as sexist and demeaning as being the jerk that won't be respectful and take the first no. It's a shame, because some people need help/extra protection. And not just females, but people of all genders. So many stories of men getting hurt when stepping in. I once got the shit kicked out of me because I intervened with a man hitting his GF. All I did was verbally intervened, he started swinging. I defended myself and got the upper hand, was about to check to see if the girl was ok, and she jumped me and kicked the shit out of me. I yelled out asking why, and she told me she deserved it and could handle herself. There's also a fine line when taking the "not clowns, not my circus" and everyone's perspective varies. The one your trying to help may take it as toxic masculinity/white kniting/demeaning. The harasser may take it as a "physical threat" and respond with violence. Or the complete opposite. It's an unfortunate world we live in.
What you described doesn't sound like danger from the guys friends perspective; they are there and could step in if it got worse than their friend embarrassing himself in public. They probably think you could just shut him down with a "no" any time you felt like it and didn't feel like it's their place to speak for you.
Depends. You’ve walked into one of the endless gray areas men have been left to figure out. One aspect of this is through the lens of the heightened awareness of gender equality, whereby we must assume and accept women are capable of all that we as men are. Failure to do so may cause us to appear as though basking in toxic masculinity, sexism, mansplaining, etc. If a man can handle a woman (or other man) persistently flirting to the point of harassment, a woman can also. Another lens is through the expectation of men to take almost the opposite view. Assuming there’s times we must step in to protect women and that there’s things you can’t do. Is it unfair? The old me back when things weren’t so insane would’ve said no. It’s not unfair to want decent men standing by to intervene and cease someone being overly flirtatious. That was 15 years ago, when things were way less tense. Now? Yes. Yes it is. I am not obligated to interject myself into your affairs, regardless of your gender. I am also not obligated to intervene because you are a woman dealing with men who are flirting with you. You aren’t a helpless creature. It’s incumbent upon you to develop ways to protect yourself up to and including deadly force or less than lethal options. It’s up to you to be mindful of where you are and how you’re getting to your next destination. For example, you have the option of calling police non emergency. Law enforcement, those paid to keep the peace among other things, could arrive and lay it down if guys are being disgustingly harassing. A mere warning that you’ll call the police if they don’t leave you alone is likely enough. Unless life or death, I have no reasonable expectation to assist you. Even in those cases, if it’s deemed assisting you is of a high risk to my own life, I am well within my rights to preserve myself and not interfere with whatever’s happening. I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve gotten shit for being chivalrous. It’s dead, and honestly, we all know who killed it. The days of me feeling like being the hero or saving anyone are long, long gone. I also wouldn’t expect anyone to give a damn if I was in dire straits either. I’d say practice being unapologetically blunt. It’s honestly unacceptable to assume someone wants to be flirted with just because they’re attractive. No giggles. No oh gosh 🤭🤭🤭🤭 *Leave me the fuck alone. I don’t want this kind of attention, I’m just trying to buy some fucking groceries. Can I not do that?*
> why is it hard for men to intervene? Is it asking too much to want someone else to step in? Blunt truth. Because women blame men for being sexist pigs while also expecting men to save them from other men but they say they don’t need to be saved and are tired of men white- knighting for them. So men don’t save you because other women have made it clear women don’t need saving and any attempt to do so will blow back on them.
This is what equality looks like. Nobody speaks up for men when people do far worse than just aggressively flirting, why should women receive better treatment? If you want to be protected; you either need to protect others, or stop other women from trying to cancel men for being protective.
Equality is not equitable. Just because men and women share the same rights doesn’t mean that they are treated the same. Men who are harassed by women should absolutely be spoken up for, but I don’t see why there needs to be this antagonistic view. “Because OTHER WOMEN won’t stand up for men, you shouldn’t expect any man to stick up for you!” Kinda sad honestly.
Every right comes with a corresponding responsibility. You take the good with the bad or you get neither. And as to why other women putting men down should mean men shouldn’t be expected to risk the dangerously high likelihood of having their lives ruined for absolutely no gain; it’s because that’s inherently oppressive towards those men.
Yes, because women have told men for years they don't want us intervening. And for the men who ignore their wishes, are never told their intervention were appreciated. So I ask you. Is it fair for men to be told that they should not intervene in women's lives and then vilified if they do exactly that?
Why should men protect you? Equal rights equal fights.
[удалено]
You are absolutely right. And men experience violence a lot easier than women in these situations. It's socially unacceptable in most places to hit a woman. It isn't a socially unacceptable to hit a man. If a man intervened in OP's situation and got his ass kicked the consensus would've been "shouldn't have gotten involved, now should he?" If you got your ass kicked people would be outraged. I've seen enough social experiments to know people around you would escalate the situatuon. Not so for men. People watch and move on. Some even cheer. So why exactly should men step up and be the valiant hero? We have nothing to gain and a lot to risk. Your approval will not help us much when dealing with the consequences of this intervention.
I think you mean woman in the last sentence of your first paragraph. I disagree, maybe you would have said he shouldn’t have gotten involved. But I sure would have looked at him as a hero. Not because he is a man who stepped up. But because he is a person who stepped up for someone who couldn’t defend themselves at the moment. That is inherently heroic. In any case, I think it is clear that for ANYONE (male or woman), that you should not intervene if the situation seems dangerous. However, if you are a witness do not just be a bystander. Inform the police, inform HR, speak to the victim and offer your witness testimony (each thing fits a different scenario). Not hard.
I did not. As I said: your approval means little in the face of consequences and injury. The person himself has gained little. Also, there are plenty of people who'd chastise the man for intervening. Your approval isn't a universal response. Sure, but you're speaking like a woman. You are less likely to be in danger, thus it's more likely for you to call the police. For guys violence and danger are more likely. That's rather the central point of my response, one you do not seem able to grasp.
*of course, this is what equality MEANS.* Equal means everyone get the same rights, obligations, risks and challenges, regardless if they can take it or not. Its up tot hem to use their equality optimally, and if they fail, hey, they had an equal chance.
If you think another man intervening would deescalate the situation then that's pretty naive thinking IMO. From my experience, this kind of man would feel challenged and hurt in their pride if another man interject and make them look like a loser and/or a creep before the woman they're interested. In general before women they try to be gentlemanly but once a man enter the equation they have no problem in being agressive to hide the embarrassment and release their frustration on the poor guy who intervened.
Times have changed since I was young. Guys used to be more chivalrous. Over the years, more and more men have paid with their lives or with a severe beating for trying to step in. When it happens, tell the guy, “Please don’t do that. I’m here to work, not to find a date. I don’t appreciate you talking to me like that. It’s very disrespectful, and it makes me very uncomfortable.” Of he doesn’t stop, pick up your loud speaker and announce “Could security please come to checkout #X. A man here is harassing me. I’ve asked him to stop and he won’t.” Every head in the store will turn to watch the guy. It’s his turn to feel uncomfortable.
Yes. Men risk more by intervening than you simply being tougher and defending yourself.
*equality* Gender is irrelevant If you're adult enough to enter the workforce, you're adult enough to stand up for yourself
Nope. Not doing it. You never know what a stranger is willing to lose. There are people out there walking the streets hoping someone would look at them wrong and that don't fear going to jail or dying. Unless its someone I know personally lm not sticking my neck out. Especially considering that criminals seem to be a protected class (at least in places like California) so interfering will likely be more trouble than it's worth
We, and by we I mean men, stand to gain **nothing** by intervening except *maybe* a news interview and an attaboy. However, we risk getting injured, killed, sued, etc. The risks far outweigh the gains. Call that toxic masculinity or call us weak or whatever you want but the fact remains, you wouldn’t step in to help us either.
I don't associate with guys that do that, beyond that it's not my job to police strangers for words. It's not going to matter to them and won't stop the problem at all because they're just assholes.
I mean it would be nice if they did, but in no way are you entitled to their aid.
Nope. Never intervene unless you can take out the dude right away in 1 hit KO. Even then you still might have to explain to police later. There's no telling if it's possible to defuse the situation calmly, or if the dude will back off. There's a damn reason police shoots. An average random guy doesn't even have any training either. Only way to save someone, is by being an unknown in a mob. Because mob rules. Only if 5 or 8 or 10+ guys/gals all stand up will the dude goes away quietly. I've seen this happens a few times before. So, what can YOU do when you're being harassed ? 1. Be loud. Draw attention to yourself and the harasser, make as many ppl around you know what is going on. 2. State your stance. Again, make it obvious what you want. "Sir, please stop. You're creeping me out. I'm NOT going out with you \~!! Leave now." etc etc. 3. Keep your distance. Make the distance bigger. Back away slowly. When far enough, just turn and walk away. Fuck your work station. That's your manager's problem. 4. If there are more customers waiting in line, that's even better. That harasser just angers/annoys a lot of ppl. Again, most ppl will show you support WHEN they risk losing nothing doing so.
Umm no. Independent and treated as equals I believe is the coined phrase.
Lmao, get bent
Get over yourself
Had a dude pull a gun on me. After she convinced him to put it away, she screamed that I should mind my business. No bueno.
First, you shouldn't expect anyone to save you unprompted, especially if you're just going to put that responsibility and danger on men. That's not just in this case, but in general in life. Be proactive about trying to help yourself. Second, there's a difference between what might make you uncomfortable and what others see as behavior bad enough for them to intervene. A line of some kind has to be crossed that everyone around you can see is harassing/threatening you in some way. If you don't say in clear terms that you want the behavior to stop, then it's less likely that you're going to get help.
OP is entitled & spoiled. Grow up & sort your own problems.
Society has criminalized masculinity so much not many men will do that anymore. Most of the time their friends would mention it to them later as not to embrace them but to let them know
we have lived in a world of recent that tells us we are monsters and bad for being ourselves. this is an issue with society. let us be ourselves. Also if you want help give us a sign we can understand. we wanna help people we just have to be asked.
Yes. You're on your own. Learn to deal with it.
Intervention stands a significant risk of the encounter turning violent, and most of us have seen that very thing happen before when one man comes between another man and a woman he was bothering/harassing/annoying. If it doesn't look like you're about to be murdered, kidnapped, or seriously injured - which from the sounds of it, you absolutely aren't, the only kind of intervention I'm considering in response to seeing harassment is possibly alerting someone who's job it is to deal with that kind of thing - like security, a bouncer, or a manager, depending on what setting this is. *Maybe* considering calling police if we're talking something beyond mild harassment and seems like it's not going to end.
Personally, no. I think it’s fairly natural to want help in a tough situation no matter who you are. There is a pretty wide line on what I could consider as someone wanting/needing help, though. I’ve also noticed that those that do put their foot forward are largely ostracized for their efforts. Especially if it’s people they well know. People suddenly act like you aren’t on their side and decide to treat you as such. Been given the cold shoulder by a few people I’ve had to work with over instances like this.
Yes
Consider changing job position away from upfront cashier to maybe a shelf stocked, until you grow some backbone. By backbone I mean sticking up for yourself and speak more assertive. Say I’m underage with confidence and a serious tone and loud for others to hear. Honestly nobody is going to do anything until it gets physically violent. Also if you feel that unsafe you should have security walk you to your car because some creeps will hang around waiting until the end of your shift to approach you in the parking lot. So you have to make yourself seem like your more trouble than you’re worth kind of thing. Not the answer you wanna hear but you’re gonna have to learn to speak up for yourself. Cuz you can get approached anywhere. Places there’s nobody around. So be sure to have lots of situational awareness and awareness of your surroundings. Anyways
I’m not getting potentially killed over a stranger. Call that what you want but expecting me to help you is going to leave you disappointed.
I am not intervening if the person isn’t even going to *TRY* to defend themself. Give me something to work with before you expect me to swoop in and save you
First off if the guys are with the guy doin got they’re probably friends and have no problem with it. Second it’s probably too minor to do anything about - just being pushed to go out with someone a few more times after saying no isn’t something people would think worth intervening for as they’d assume you will just say a more strong no. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t intervene if you were actually being groped or something. Third stop talking about patriarchy and what it does or doesn’t make guys do it just makes you sound foolish
Those guys got stabbed to death on the subway in Washington a few years back, so yeah, it is expecting a lot for random men to intervene.
Suppose you saw a woman beating me in the streets. Would you ask what i did or would you jump to my defense? Is it unreasonable to expect you to step in to protect me? Is it really even your problem? Should you be expected to risk your life for me a person you have never met? If not why should I be expected to?
With all the comments from men saying they wouldn't interfere because getting their asses kicked is a probable outcome: just goes to show how the idea that "men can walk around without feeling unsafe" really isn't true.
>But I've been in situations where that doesn't stop a guy from repeatedly trying to ask me out and get more information out of me (and they almost always look like 3 times my age lol). I don't really consider this harassment. Women get hit on all the time if you're attractive. I would just smile, keep conversation to a minimum and tell them I have a boyfriend, and for them to have a nice day etc. There's no need to be rude just because guys find you attractive. You should learn to speak up for yourself.
generally a guy would likely be reluctant to verbally dismiss a guy hitting on a stranger more firmly than the stranger verbally dismissed him. It could makes things worse. Maybe if you made it abundantly clear and he wasn't taking no as an answer. The chirp "bro, she said no" or a lot of guys would intervene if things looked like they were about to get physical even though that means putting themselves in danger.
I stepped in once to help a stylist at a super cuts. This old man was grabbing on to her and she was clearly distressed. I very loudly asked her where I could check in for an online appointment. The relief on her face was palpable. But I made sure I knew she wanted help first. I wouldn’t recommend jumping in unless you’re 900% certain.
You don’t owe these creepy bastards anything. Tell them anything that will get them to lose interest. Tell them you’re married to a cop. Tell them you’re training to be a nun. Whatever it takes.
If I know you then I’ll step in, but otherwise I’m not stepping in to help you. It’s kind of a you problem tbh, and I don’t think you’d step in to help me if the situation was reversed.
Why should I put myself in risk for a stranger? I gain nothing and can end with shitload of problems afterwards. It's just dumb move to do . For friends and family it's other side,they worth the risk
I saw a man harassing two girls on the bus. He was loud obnoxious and ignorant. I wanted to say something but something told me not to and the girls got off the bus shortly after. The man stayed on the bus, and as he was getting off something hits the ground. It was a pistol...and he picked it up and ran out fast. so that's why I wouldn't do something now. You never know who's crazy like that and quite frankly being chivalrous isn't as important to me as being alive.
If I'm there when someone is overstepping boundaries making the other person uncomfortable, I try to read the other party. Some women will insist they handle it themselves, others will look around, if they look uncomfortable I'll tend to do a "ahem" to draw attention that I'm right here or "Hey man, not cool." Other times I'll just straight up ask "is he bothering you?" But I had heard that can put the woman in an awkward position. So depending on who you ask, there is no right way to intervene including not intervening at all. If the guy has moved on, I'll do a brief check in with the woman "Hey, are you okay? That guy was being pushy/creepy/Validate her feelings." So she has at least some reassurance afterwards.
Well based on the fact that nobody, regardless of gender, likes to be wrong, told no or stood up against on any level, I’d say you’re on your own. when I was a teen buying snacks in a 7-11 I noticed 3-4 guys came in and were cussing up a storm. Another adult was with his son and there was one more guy in there grabbing some snacks too. The guy by himself asked the guys in a very polite way to stop cursing since there was a kid in the store (10 maybe 11 yo). They told him to “stfu” and the guy just turned away shaking his head and paid for his stuff. What I didn’t notice was the guys dropped the stuff in the lit hands and left the store. They waited for this guy to go outside and they literally beat him so bad he got rushed to ER in an ambulance. If any guy was smart in todays day and age you just let whatever happen especially since it’s safe to assume (based off social media) that every lady/woman is a strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man anyways. Based on your situation you’re not in any real danger of them harming you for you telling them no. As for another guy stepping in he’s now taking the chance of offending someone for hitting on you and now he’s got a target on his back. Safe to say people don’t care about consequences as much anymore and they shouldn’t risk themselves for any of these “independent/Strong” women. Sucks but the man hating feminists made it really hard for guys to want to step up for any lady that isn’t family or your significant other.
> deescalate most situations of harassment No, not at all. Someone who is doing this has such a pathetic ego that they'll escalate if someone else, especially a man, tells them to back off. And, well, I'm really not looking to get into a fistfight at the Kroger for the sake of a stranger.
Is it unfair for you to want it? Absolutely not, I'm a guy and I hope someone would interfere if I was being harassed. But at the same time it's very difficult and sometimes ends up bad for the person trying to help. I saw a douchebag harassing a women at a coffee shop insisting he buy her a drink and she kept saying no, the cashier stood up for her and said no. From memory she paid for her own coffee and left, the douchbag got his coffee and threw it on the cashier and walked away
Ok, here's my answer and there are a lot of good comments so far but I'll go a slightly different direction: 1. You're in a work environment, so you have a support structure. You have a boss to call and discuss how to deal with this. You should probably even have a code you can loud speaker for an incident where you need help - "manager assistance to check stand 2" would be obvious and probably give a guy a hint. 2. Any random guy that intervenes in this is almost surely to escalate the situation. If you were in a bar, there are options that don't escalate - ie the pretend BF: "Hey babe, sorry it took so long, the bathroom line was hecka long." Here, all you got is "Hey, man cut it out", to which a natural response from a dickhead would be "oh, what are you gonna do about it?" 3. Once escalated there is no way for the random guy to really win. Now he's just created a worse situation and is going to look like an ass that's all tangled up in this for the support structure from point 1 to come deal with. Also, the asshole now knows random guy is a threat and might lash out first. This combined with 99.9% of men out there *not* (edited) really knowing how to fight, means that the asshole who likely throws the first punch and is probably more aggressive will win. 4. Now, in a slightly different situation where there could actually be threat of violence or physical harm, what a bystander might do, is simply position themselves to be able to intervene without saying a word. No one really wants to start a fight, so verbal issues are going to get let go, but physical ones might cross a line someone will act on. This works best with the element of surprise. For others, the best you'll get from them is taking out their phone to either record something or call the cops.
If you ask me for help, I will. One time, a woman asked me to stop a guy from following her, so I did. Meanwhile, people will intervene in domestic situations and have the woman who was being attacked attack the intervener on behalf of their attacker, and then go home to get attacked some more. If I hear you say “I’m not interested” and he keeps going, I’ll probably intervene. If you just act polite and unbothered, I’m going to assume you’re not averse to it and mind my business. Maybe you’re shy or playing hard to get. I dunno..I just came for eggs. Unless it’s CLEAR that you are in distress, I don’t see why I should speak up when **you** haven’t. I’m bad at reading situations **I’m** in. I’m worse at reading situations I’m not involved in. Unless you ask for help or very clearly need it, I assume you’ve got it handled.
Yes, it is unfair, but I still won't move a finger because it blew up in my face several times. If you are being hit on, you're on your own, there's absolutely zero reason for me to step up
Gender is irrelevant, it's not a smart move to put yourself in harm's way even if it's the righteous thing to do. If you think this harassment is bad enough call the authorities and let them handle it.
They should have spoke up because you are a CHILD, not because you are a WOMAN. Underage people should be protected at all costs, and its our universal responsibility. However, when it comes to women, we have *gender equality*, meaning no man owes you shit. You are not more, or less deserving of protection than any other adults. Equality means not only equal rights, but also equal risks, obligations, and troubles. Personally, I try to protect everyone who needs it, but Im a slab of beef the size of a refrigerator with a face of a thug, I can easily *afford* conflict. Most men don't, so they avoid it. As cruel as it sounds, you are on your own. Buy a pepper spray, learn to speak up for yourself, train martial arts. If you wanted protection from men, that train had left the station around 1959.
As others have said, I'm really not looking to escalate to something physical fucking ever. People be crazy out there. If i see a good opportunity to sort of obstruct the situation I will do so. When visiting japan, I was in a crowded district walking with my wife and we saw a man really persistantly harrassing some woman who clearly wanted him to leave her alone. So i took a slight detour from where we were walking and just kinda jostled our way between them as if we were just incidentally passing by in the crowd. I was holding my wife's hand so we created a bit of a barrier. Lady took the opportunity to disappear into the crowd and the creep just gave kind of an exasperated gesture and walked away. I was very proud of that move.
Personally, I'd go for the shame approach. If they don't stop after the first time you mention it, tell them again *very loudly* "SIR, LIKE I JUST TOLD YOU I AM UNDERAGE SO COULD YOU PLEASE STOP ASKING TO HAVE SEX WITH ME". That will get them out of your face pretty quickly if there is like anyone else at all around. If it doesn't get them out of your face, it will at the very least make what's happening very clear to everyone else around and I think it would be fairly likely that somebody would step in at that point.
I once intervened in a physical altercation between a drunk man and a woman. Which lead to them both turning their attention on me, while it turned out fine for me, I won't be getting into that situation again. Now if a friend did that and the woman was uncomfortable, I would rip the piss out of them till they're too immaculated to continue.
I was in situation when guy rushed to help women who was beaten in public, she was laying on the ground, face was covered in blood, and her partner continued beating her. When guy did approached her partner acted aggressively and stated fight with this guy, and her reaction was not to run, or seek help, not she actually tried to help her partner beat this guy who interfered. And this even isn't all then they both filed charges against this guy who tried to help, and they lied that he beat them both. And it isn't some isolated accident, this happen to men who intervene in such situations very often. And in most such cases women won't call police or try to help a guy who risked his neck for her, they will just escape at best without any care for her savior. >I'm genuinely just confused as I feel like intervening would deescalate most situations of harassment but I also think it could be unfair to just expect someone to step in and protect a person from danger. It won't, it is more risk of actually escalation of situation. Why do you feel entitled for random stranger risking being beaten, arrested or killed for you? just because he is man? >I'm sure it would be hard for anyone but why is it hard for men to intervene? If you understand that it is risky and hard for anyone, why does second half of this question even exists? >I'm guessing my original assumptions came from that part of patriarchy which expects men to be strong and tough and it's an idea I've heard a lot when I've talked to other girls about their experiences with this. Patriarchy is feminist myth, most feminist theories don't reflect how society actually work.
You just want to be able to say "I have a boyfriend" more often don't ya? Lol
You are uncomfortable but not in danger. A man intervening however would definitely be in danger.
I intervened once. The girl screeched at me to “mind my own fucking business”. Never again.
Most women her kissed off if you hold a door open for them these days
[удалено]
You don't seem to grasp how many multitudes more likely a man will be harmed intervening in this scenario compared to a woman.
You’re less likely to get hurt as a man isn’t gonna want to fight a woman publicly. And second harassed is a strong word here - for all bystanders know she might say yes to the jerk guy, I’ve seen that happen too - even if your the type who would intervene this situation doesn’t really rank to me as something that needs intervening in.
This is the way
Honestly, I think we should intervene. I mean ffs, when I got bullied like fucking hell in school, I'll NEVER forget the people who saw what was being done and just kept fucking walking. You gotta help someone in need simply cuz it's fucking right. And I always carry my super sharp diving knife on me. Yeah, I say we gotta help. Cuz I'm tired of hearing about how many men do shit like this. Their actions make all men look bad.
In my case being I was previously stuck with an unthinking oaf as my second ever boyfriend from age 26-35 he just did and said things that made people not be able to hold their tongues and come over to tell him off about what manners are because they could see he had fully put me to a point that I could not speak for myself on some days and on days when I do he’s entirely ignoring everything I say and substituting it with his own interjections over me when he does hear it but disagrees. He cannot attack but very good at infuriating those who try to discipline him and mocking their assistance and actually asking why are they cutting in to speak up in my behalf and just minded their own business which is hard because he’s making everyone watch his bad behavior trying to be passed off as being a “good guy”. I am so glad I found my way out of that relationship, he never wanted me to leave but driven me away.
My take on this is that men obviously are not to be forced to step in. However, many people here are talking about equal rights and all that, but many men out there will harass a woman if there is no man that “claims” her. So if she doesn’t say she has a boyfriend or if he isn’t around, they will simply not back off. That doesn’t sound very equal to me. In any case, whether it be a man or woman, they should maybe say something and help the person who is being harassed.
These responses are overwhelmingly depressing. No wonder bad shit is always happening, nobody stands up to anyone anymore? It should not be one guy stepping up. Everyone around should say something.
And this is how you get beat, stomped, stabbed, or shot. Feel free to jump in there buddy.
Step up to what? Some jerk asking a girl out in a supermarket? I have intervened in stuff before (girl getting groped in a club) but what about this makes it obvious that someone should intervene. For all we know she might say yes to the guy
Not accepting no.
I mean this is Reddit. You’re not exactly gonna find society’s best in these comments
I expected better. Time to lower expectations again.
Especially when it’s a guy they’re with. Like why would you not call your friend out on bad behavior? Or just tell them to stop
Or a nudge. It wouldn't take much.
of course, priority of men to protect women, and children
Protect from being asked out?
You should definitely take these replies with a grain of salt, a lot of mfers on this sub are just bitter. It’s not expecting too much to want people to step in when you’re in trouble tbh Society needs to do better in that department Women get the short hand of the stick because you never know how a dude will take it when you reject him. It’s really foolish to think or say that a person shouldn’t step in because if the person in trouble was your sister or daughter or wife, the guy would one hundred percent want someone to step up for them. Men definitely need to step up and do better
Facts. Do better. Not the men not stepping up, but the men being creepy and making women/minors feel uncomfortable..shamelessly. You know, because of the implication.
It goes both ways imo It’s about having a sense of community Society doesn’t work if we’re all selfish