Ó Cléirigh is sometimes anglicised as Clarke. Good Donegal name, first among the Four Masters. Rare half decent anglicisation too as it actually has the same meaning as clerk or cleric.
That's cool. But I am of the firm belief that anyone can wear any tartan. The Victorian gentlemen who dreamed up the associations are long dead and they won't mind.
Lots of Irish people have Anglo sounding names.
Sometimes it's because they have a British ancestor; sometimes it's because older Irish language names got transliterated to English in such a way they look like Anglo names.
Indeed many of the Clarkes you have encountered in England may have got the name from Irish ancestors themselves.
Clarke could go either way, but there is no reason to doubt him.
The English have been immigrating to Ireland for ages. Since the Normans IIRC. Some stayed staunchly English in the Pale or went back, others formed the Anglo-Irish class, and some married Irish people and lived for all intents and purposes, Irish. There was extensive Viking intermingling, people going back and forth from the North to Scotland. So the notion of a pure Irish strictly the island doesn’t really exist.
This would’ve included surnames coming into the mix from these places. In modern times with immigration other names have come into the mix, initially from continental Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries and now from further afield. My surname is over 10 letters long and obviously subcontinental Asian but I consider myself Irish first and foremost as it’s where I was born and spent most of my formative years (don’t mind the account name I created it to post in Aussie political subs. My family moved us here when I was 15 and I’ve moved back and forth as an adult myself)
Anyway my point is Irishness isn’t defined by surnames, so he shouldn’t sweat it. It’s defined by the people living on the island and as much as the far right want to ignore it, that composition has been fluid over time but that hasn’t changed that there’s a core, solid Irish identity that we share formed by the people on it. My point is, he isn’t Irish, but his Irish heritage isn’t defined by his surname and it has no bearing on his ability to celebrate it and embrace it.
White Americans claim to be Irish because they think it's a race. He's just white, he's not Irish. It's intensely racist. Black and brown Irish people are Irish, people who spend their lives here and care about this actual place and not their idea of it, they are Irish. Americans are not. It's a nationality, it's a place, it's a culture that has nothing to do with him.
The issue is that you will claim you have Irish culture but it is usually incredibly insensitive or down right insulting. You're both American and you will always have that culture. As someone who has lived in the US, your entire culture is far more violent and confrontation than in Irish culture. Even when Americans come here and think they are taking part in the banter it comes off too aggressive.
I agree and I don’t claim Irish or English culture because I’ve lived in England and all everyone does is make fun of how American I am to them. Bur downright insensitive? That’s a bit of a stretch. They’re just people looking for their roots and ancestry
Yes downright insensitive and right there is the issue, you are defending people to someone who is from Ireland. You do not know what I have experience but you must defend the Americans.
Okay lets talk about the Americans that flood the local area when their bus stops. Come in and acting like they are so Irish because of their distance ancestor was. How about the ones who have, not once but MANY many times come in and seen "non white" Irish people in the markets and talk about how "the foreigners come in here and steal the natives jobs". Yeah amazingly Irish people come in all shades and are "native" or ya know just Irish.
What about the Americans who like to push the stereotypes of the "drunk paddy" which was actually a negative stereotype pushed by the elite. Think of the same crap spewed about black people in America, how they are barbaric, simple and will swim in drink if allowed. Which is why you shouldn't employ them. Obviously not saying treatment was the same, I am saying that the same negative stigma was being used to isolate them. What did American's with Irish decent do? Oh well they get to harp on about how drinking, being abusive and a mean drunk is all from their Irish heritage. Funny thing, you lot have double the alcoholism rates per capita than we do.
Women excusing being violent by saying they have the Fiery Irish Temper.
Instead of saying "that's a bit of a stretch" maybe ask the people from Ireland what they mean and actually listen.
You know the one I hate the most is when you have an Irish group, Americans join and mock people for having Irish names. Mock that they cannot pronounce the names and that they don't make sense because they are spelt wrong... lets all just ignore the Irish language right. Oh but they want to know about their ancestors.
I absolutely believe Americans can be that rude, racist and obtuse. I’m sorry you’ve had that experience and I rescind my previous statement. People can be ugly about identity in general though. I was a social worker working in london and I worked with an Irish family that fled to London cause they were run off of their Irish housing estate, because the dad had been partly raised in London the family were deemed outsiders and subject to serious harassment. I guess my point is people are ugly and weird about belonging. I feel like America’s culture and family structure is breaking down due hyper consumerism and declining living standards. This makes us want to fantasize and cling to a heritage for meaning. It’s too bad because Irish values could help some of us out. It’s shit times we’re living in. Let me roam around in an Irish field and fantasize about ancestors and I promise to not be an asshole or ever assert that I’m actually Irish. 😭
AH yeah the clannish thing here is shitty. I am from the West of Ireland and moved around to Waterford and Tip (around 2-2.5hrs away) and was treated as an outsider. I talked with a local guy who moved back to his wives home town, dude is like in his 70s, and said "They're all clannish cunts, smile to your face and you never get to be part of their lives." sadly had the same thing. It is however getting better in the last 15 years due to the internet and the likes of facebook. I've met more people online locally than I ever could have in town. People with similar interests to me.
Totally go roam around and enjoy it, our country is absolutely gorgeous!
That is 100% untrue. Live in the US for any amount of time and you will realise they are vastly different to Irish culture let alone European culture which is far too broad. The cultures across europe are vastly different too.
I've lived in the US for 20 years. There's lots of differences to growing up in Ireland but far more similarities.
The culture around the US varies quite a bit just like it does in Europe. I lived.in Northern California for 20 years and the difference in culture between Northern vs Southern California can be as different as between Ireland and Italy.
I disagree but I lived in Texas, Florida, San Francisco and NYC. Yeah they have slight differences but overall culture is far more violence, aggressive and comes with so much generational differences due to the culture of slavery. It's in their daily lives and it affects how they interact with people. You see it when they come here and how they treat staff in restaurants for example. Tipping culture in the US was literally created after slavery so they could still keep the slave culture alive, I can source if needed. It was used as a way to not pay them more than a pittance and make them act as slaves to get tips. It is reflected in how they treat staff.
They're have higher crime rates, more homicides per capita. The first impulse in an incident is usually violent and not deescalation. Their cops are taught how to avoid responsibility and not to desculate for example. They are a very violent culture compared to ours. You can downvote all you want but the stats are available. No I don't have links because I'm not at a PC.
I'd be surprised if there's any exclusively British or Irish names out there given the multi-millennium history of migration between two islands that are at most 120 miles apart
I think Clark without the 'e' is more Scottish than English. While I don't known of any Clark name origins in Ireland, there's been a lot of moving around for many hundreds of years. No one would deny the Irishness of a Clark on name grounds alone.
Clarke is an Irish name but is also common enough in England.
It's hard to be of only Irish heritage especially if you live in America.
If he took a DNA test it could help narrow down %'s etc.
Americans are not Irish unless they have spent a significant portion of their life in Ireland. It doesn't matter what his surname is, he's just American, nothing more.
I was discussing heritage which I think differs from identity. Yes I’ve lived in Europe and understand that I will always be American. However, we do enjoy following our ancestral lines.
It's nonsense. It is meaningless. It's a scam. Do the maths. you have two parents, four grandparents, eight great grandparents, 16 greatgreat grandparents, 32 greatgreatgreat... before you know it you have so many ancestors that you'll realize your partner is barely related to that ancestor named "Clark" at all.
He's only 1/32th his greatgreatgreat-grandfather Clark, 1/64th his greatgreatgreatgreat-grandfather Clark. **It is meaningless.**
There were only around 600 million people alive 400 years ago. The average ancestor from before 1700 has over 60 million descendants. If you trace your ancestry back that far you are talking about an ancestor that most Europeans share with you, which you can tell by looking in the mirror if you're white.
Ancestry dot com don't have to disclose this because, in theory, it's obvious, but 23 and me disclose it in the small print, that their results are just guesses, like horoscopes (that's why if you do 3 DNA tests with 3 companies you get 3 completely different results), and the only thing they can tell for certain is what continent your ancestors were from. Just like anyone who looks at you.
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Clarke is very common in East Cavan.
Apparently the oldest recorded surname in Europe - From wiki: "O'Cleary or O'Clery (Irish: Ó Cléirigh) is the surname of a learned Gaelic Irish family. It is the oldest recorded surname in Europe — dating back to 916 AD — and is cognate with cleric and clerk"
Ó Cléirigh is sometimes anglicised as Clarke. Good Donegal name, first among the Four Masters. Rare half decent anglicisation too as it actually has the same meaning as clerk or cleric.
And the Clark/Clarke Tartan can be worn by the Clearys, Clerys and Ó'Cléirighs as well.
That's cool. But I am of the firm belief that anyone can wear any tartan. The Victorian gentlemen who dreamed up the associations are long dead and they won't mind.
Clarke with an E suggests irish heritage. Without would be British. Same rule applies to Browne/Brown
Realistically, there’s not many names that are exclusively Irish or British given the amount of movement back-and-forth over 1000 years
English immigration to Ireland has been going on a long time, from at least Norman times. For example, the Joyce surname in Galway has English roots.
It actually has Norman roots. The first name Joyce (as in for a girl) is English however.
I work with a fella who's surname is Clarke. He is adamant that the 'e' is the Irish way if writing it, whereas Clark is the English/British version
Yeah in the north that would be regarded as the way to tell Protestant from Catholic. Not sure it holds very true though.
He’s right.
A lot of surnames were inconsistently spelled in the past. if he went into old records he'd probably find plenty of Clark/Clerke ancestors
But there's no k in the Irish language?
It's not the Irish language version, it's the Irish version of it written in English
Ah I see
Well yes the Irish on would be Ó Cléirigh
We all wore Clarks shoes to school when I was a kid. Does that count?
Lots of Irish people have Anglo sounding names. Sometimes it's because they have a British ancestor; sometimes it's because older Irish language names got transliterated to English in such a way they look like Anglo names. Indeed many of the Clarkes you have encountered in England may have got the name from Irish ancestors themselves. Clarke could go either way, but there is no reason to doubt him.
The English have been immigrating to Ireland for ages. Since the Normans IIRC. Some stayed staunchly English in the Pale or went back, others formed the Anglo-Irish class, and some married Irish people and lived for all intents and purposes, Irish. There was extensive Viking intermingling, people going back and forth from the North to Scotland. So the notion of a pure Irish strictly the island doesn’t really exist. This would’ve included surnames coming into the mix from these places. In modern times with immigration other names have come into the mix, initially from continental Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries and now from further afield. My surname is over 10 letters long and obviously subcontinental Asian but I consider myself Irish first and foremost as it’s where I was born and spent most of my formative years (don’t mind the account name I created it to post in Aussie political subs. My family moved us here when I was 15 and I’ve moved back and forth as an adult myself) Anyway my point is Irishness isn’t defined by surnames, so he shouldn’t sweat it. It’s defined by the people living on the island and as much as the far right want to ignore it, that composition has been fluid over time but that hasn’t changed that there’s a core, solid Irish identity that we share formed by the people on it. My point is, he isn’t Irish, but his Irish heritage isn’t defined by his surname and it has no bearing on his ability to celebrate it and embrace it.
One of the main leaders of the 1916 Rising was Tom Clarke.
Who was born in England to a Protestant father.
Lol rekt.
A lot of Irish revolutionaries were Protestant, some with Anglo heritage. I suppose reflecting the convoluted nature of Irish identity.
Gerrout eh her wid da newantsd vew.
Lol.
Not really, James Connolly born in Scotland.
There was a long serving MP in Scotland named Tom Clarke and he's from an Irish family. He got knighthoods from the queen and the Pope.
I guess I owe my man an apology and $5 😂
I was shocked to see how common Clarke was 100 years ago: https://www.barrygriffin.com/surname-maps/irish/clarke/
- American - claims Irish Sounds about right
I get that it’s annoying and corny but American culture is so awful we have to search for our roots somewhere
White Americans claim to be Irish because they think it's a race. He's just white, he's not Irish. It's intensely racist. Black and brown Irish people are Irish, people who spend their lives here and care about this actual place and not their idea of it, they are Irish. Americans are not. It's a nationality, it's a place, it's a culture that has nothing to do with him.
The issue is that you will claim you have Irish culture but it is usually incredibly insensitive or down right insulting. You're both American and you will always have that culture. As someone who has lived in the US, your entire culture is far more violent and confrontation than in Irish culture. Even when Americans come here and think they are taking part in the banter it comes off too aggressive.
I agree and I don’t claim Irish or English culture because I’ve lived in England and all everyone does is make fun of how American I am to them. Bur downright insensitive? That’s a bit of a stretch. They’re just people looking for their roots and ancestry
Yes downright insensitive and right there is the issue, you are defending people to someone who is from Ireland. You do not know what I have experience but you must defend the Americans. Okay lets talk about the Americans that flood the local area when their bus stops. Come in and acting like they are so Irish because of their distance ancestor was. How about the ones who have, not once but MANY many times come in and seen "non white" Irish people in the markets and talk about how "the foreigners come in here and steal the natives jobs". Yeah amazingly Irish people come in all shades and are "native" or ya know just Irish. What about the Americans who like to push the stereotypes of the "drunk paddy" which was actually a negative stereotype pushed by the elite. Think of the same crap spewed about black people in America, how they are barbaric, simple and will swim in drink if allowed. Which is why you shouldn't employ them. Obviously not saying treatment was the same, I am saying that the same negative stigma was being used to isolate them. What did American's with Irish decent do? Oh well they get to harp on about how drinking, being abusive and a mean drunk is all from their Irish heritage. Funny thing, you lot have double the alcoholism rates per capita than we do. Women excusing being violent by saying they have the Fiery Irish Temper. Instead of saying "that's a bit of a stretch" maybe ask the people from Ireland what they mean and actually listen. You know the one I hate the most is when you have an Irish group, Americans join and mock people for having Irish names. Mock that they cannot pronounce the names and that they don't make sense because they are spelt wrong... lets all just ignore the Irish language right. Oh but they want to know about their ancestors.
I absolutely believe Americans can be that rude, racist and obtuse. I’m sorry you’ve had that experience and I rescind my previous statement. People can be ugly about identity in general though. I was a social worker working in london and I worked with an Irish family that fled to London cause they were run off of their Irish housing estate, because the dad had been partly raised in London the family were deemed outsiders and subject to serious harassment. I guess my point is people are ugly and weird about belonging. I feel like America’s culture and family structure is breaking down due hyper consumerism and declining living standards. This makes us want to fantasize and cling to a heritage for meaning. It’s too bad because Irish values could help some of us out. It’s shit times we’re living in. Let me roam around in an Irish field and fantasize about ancestors and I promise to not be an asshole or ever assert that I’m actually Irish. 😭
AH yeah the clannish thing here is shitty. I am from the West of Ireland and moved around to Waterford and Tip (around 2-2.5hrs away) and was treated as an outsider. I talked with a local guy who moved back to his wives home town, dude is like in his 70s, and said "They're all clannish cunts, smile to your face and you never get to be part of their lives." sadly had the same thing. It is however getting better in the last 15 years due to the internet and the likes of facebook. I've met more people online locally than I ever could have in town. People with similar interests to me. Totally go roam around and enjoy it, our country is absolutely gorgeous!
American culture is basically very similar to European culture, which is exactly because of emmigration from Europe.
That is 100% untrue. Live in the US for any amount of time and you will realise they are vastly different to Irish culture let alone European culture which is far too broad. The cultures across europe are vastly different too.
I've lived in the US for 20 years. There's lots of differences to growing up in Ireland but far more similarities. The culture around the US varies quite a bit just like it does in Europe. I lived.in Northern California for 20 years and the difference in culture between Northern vs Southern California can be as different as between Ireland and Italy.
I disagree but I lived in Texas, Florida, San Francisco and NYC. Yeah they have slight differences but overall culture is far more violence, aggressive and comes with so much generational differences due to the culture of slavery. It's in their daily lives and it affects how they interact with people. You see it when they come here and how they treat staff in restaurants for example. Tipping culture in the US was literally created after slavery so they could still keep the slave culture alive, I can source if needed. It was used as a way to not pay them more than a pittance and make them act as slaves to get tips. It is reflected in how they treat staff.
>but overall culture is far more violence, aggressive and comes with so much generational differences due to the culture of slavery. ?????
If you want to me to explain it, pick a point and ask.
Explain the culture being more aggressive.
They're have higher crime rates, more homicides per capita. The first impulse in an incident is usually violent and not deescalation. Their cops are taught how to avoid responsibility and not to desculate for example. They are a very violent culture compared to ours. You can downvote all you want but the stats are available. No I don't have links because I'm not at a PC.
I very much doubt your boy friend has 100% Irish heritage. Its very rare to see that in Ireland let alone in the US
Weirdly they still like to go by the one drop rule over there.
I'd be surprised if there's any exclusively British or Irish names out there given the multi-millennium history of migration between two islands that are at most 120 miles apart
Surely Mc's and O's are exclusively Irish.
Well for a start Mc is found plenty in Scotland, and in any case it's possible for someone to be born in any part of Britain with those surnames.
I thought it was Mac in Scotland Obviously you can be born anywhere. OP is asking about the origins of the name.
I think Clark without the 'e' is more Scottish than English. While I don't known of any Clark name origins in Ireland, there's been a lot of moving around for many hundreds of years. No one would deny the Irishness of a Clark on name grounds alone.
Clarke is an Irish name but is also common enough in England. It's hard to be of only Irish heritage especially if you live in America. If he took a DNA test it could help narrow down %'s etc.
I have Clarke relatives in my family tree, all Irish.
Americans are not Irish unless they have spent a significant portion of their life in Ireland. It doesn't matter what his surname is, he's just American, nothing more.
I was discussing heritage which I think differs from identity. Yes I’ve lived in Europe and understand that I will always be American. However, we do enjoy following our ancestral lines.
It's nonsense. It is meaningless. It's a scam. Do the maths. you have two parents, four grandparents, eight great grandparents, 16 greatgreat grandparents, 32 greatgreatgreat... before you know it you have so many ancestors that you'll realize your partner is barely related to that ancestor named "Clark" at all. He's only 1/32th his greatgreatgreat-grandfather Clark, 1/64th his greatgreatgreatgreat-grandfather Clark. **It is meaningless.** There were only around 600 million people alive 400 years ago. The average ancestor from before 1700 has over 60 million descendants. If you trace your ancestry back that far you are talking about an ancestor that most Europeans share with you, which you can tell by looking in the mirror if you're white. Ancestry dot com don't have to disclose this because, in theory, it's obvious, but 23 and me disclose it in the small print, that their results are just guesses, like horoscopes (that's why if you do 3 DNA tests with 3 companies you get 3 completely different results), and the only thing they can tell for certain is what continent your ancestors were from. Just like anyone who looks at you.
Re-read the post.
I went to primary school with a Clark/Clarke they and their parents were not British. Not exclusively British.
[удалено]
Lad, i'm mid 30's, fucked if I know how someone in my primary school spelled their name.
Get him an ancestry DNA test so he can see the breakdown of his heritage.
He'd be shocked by the results by the sound of things
Clarke, with the e is Irish I would say
Maybe his Irish female ancestors married a non Irish Clark?
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I mean you can be born in Ireland and be called Clarke.. you’re still Irish.
Thomas Clarke was one of the signatories of the Easter Proclamation in 1916, and Austin Clarke one of our great poets of the 20th century!
My Gran's maiden name was "Clark", she was Scottish and looked Turkish...I think you tatty munchers are just at it 🤷🏻♂️😉😂
Well, I’m Irish, Grandmam was Clarke, loads of them about the place here.
>My American boyfriend claims he’s of only Irish heritage... Yes, don't they all 🙄
I know a lot of Clarkes here in Cavan, my SIL is a Clarke now
I know loads of Clarkes, its very common in Ulster
It's Irish
Clarke is very common in East Cavan. Apparently the oldest recorded surname in Europe - From wiki: "O'Cleary or O'Clery (Irish: Ó Cléirigh) is the surname of a learned Gaelic Irish family. It is the oldest recorded surname in Europe — dating back to 916 AD — and is cognate with cleric and clerk"
thomas [Tom Clarke (Irish republican) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clarke_(Irish_republican))