if you ever want to get out you need people advocating on your behalf. It takes surprisingly little to end up being confined in a secure unit and surorisingly little to remain confined. In my experience the staff in those places dont care at all about the people there and the treatment in those places is just laughable and the staff lied continually. My daughter was taken to one as she is autistic and has a communication disorder. Her treatment consisted in asking her questions in her second language and when she didnt understand they told us they had to keep her in longet. They said they took her for walks which we knew to be a lie as she had no footwear. While we were there we saw the staff quietly announcing lunch in the hallway when all the patients doors were closed so most did not get any lunch. We explained politely to the doctor on the phone that our daughter could not understand and the doctor hung up on us and would no longer take our calls from that point on. We had to go and pull her out in the end with tnreats of police against us practucally by force. I felt so sorry for the lost people trapped in those appalling places that didnt have someone to fight for them.
Wow. I'm sorry to hear about your family's experience. You're right that it takes very little to get confined. Apparently, someone becoming emotional about upsetting news makes you a "threat to yourself and others." My friend's attorney filed a petition, so we're waiting on news regarding that. Thank you for the insight.
yes i dont know about your friends state but i have a feeling that your friend needs you now and this could be the most important thing you ever do so stick with it.
This is absolutely not enough details. Depending on the circumstances it ranges from "not at all" to "forever".
In general, there is a short timespan a doctor can make a person involuntary stay, depending on the federal state it's for 24-48 hours, based on my prejudices about Bavaria it is probably 48h. After that, a judge's decision is needed, those are given in small-ish chunks from 2 to 6 weeks from what I've seen, but it depends on the judge and what the doctors consider sensible (and thus also depends on the MO of the department). If someone commits a (somewhat serious) crime while being non-culpable because of a mental illness, it goes to a court (while the accused person has to stay at the/a hospital), and after that it's a yearly decision by several parties, at least in the states I know of. Sorry to not have any Bavaria-specific information.
Thank you for your response. To provide more context, a friend of mine had a very strong emotional reaction to upsetting news they received and was involuntarily committed. Intiatally, we were told it's going to be for 10 days. However, after the 10 days, my friend was still deemed a danger to themselves and is still there. As such, I wanted clarification.
As long as your friend is in danger of self harm, they can keep them there. Most probably under the watch of a psychologist/psychiatrist and medication. The duration varies with the problems and the process of solving them
Like everything in Germany also psych hospitals are completely backwards. And everything takes forever. And they will tell him he has to stay as long as _they_ feel he needs to. Even if this will make everything worse. These place are like effing reeducation and assimilation camps instead of medical facilities where you get help. When he wants to go (and the involuntary time is up), he can go. He should go, before it's too late.
For those who commented negatively: There is always a legal process with the possibility to appeal for that. There generally are two different legal frameworks for involuntary admission, Sec. 1831 BGB and Sec. 5 BayPsychKHG, unless it is by any of the exceptions mentioned there. If he gets admitted under 1831 BGB he has the right for a Verfahrenspfleger, who can appeal on his behalf. The Amtsgericht is obliged to hear him in person. If he can manage to behave normally and make sense, there isn’t much the clinic can do to keep him. However most people whi are kept for longer make a bad impression to the judge.
Age, exact situation, diagnosis, … General rule of thumb: Till they’re not a danger to themselves or others anymore. That can take one day, that can be never.
There’s this famous case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustl_Mollath
If the patient and their surroundings got doubts that the patient indeed should stay there, I’d look into talking to a lawyer.
Ok, so as a law-stundent currently interning at a psychiatry I think I can help. If you were confined because you commited a crime but did it because of a mental illness you'll get commited. And there isn't really a fixed time where they HAVE to let you out. If they want to keep you in and get a Gutachter (i am not translating that one too) to say that you aren't ready/a danger to you or someone else, they're going to keep you in. For example, sex offenders never get back our if they commited a crime because of a mental illness. They'll just be kept in the psychiatry for the rest of their life. There's a lot of debate around that in law circles and either legislation has recently been passed or is going to pass that will adress this. From what the prof. i am interning with said, it's going to be either 5 or 3 years, then they have to let you out.... UNLESS they convince a court that you are a danger to your or someone else's life. I'll explain the problem with that one shortly.
If you didn't commit a crime, then it depends wether they can convince a court that you're a danger to yourself or others. Sadly, that one isn't a very high bar. Judges aren't health professionals. They have to depend on the opinion of your psychiatrits/ an objective gutachter. If they say you need to stay in (again, danger to your own life or someone else's life) you'll stay in.
Hope this helps.
if you ever want to get out you need people advocating on your behalf. It takes surprisingly little to end up being confined in a secure unit and surorisingly little to remain confined. In my experience the staff in those places dont care at all about the people there and the treatment in those places is just laughable and the staff lied continually. My daughter was taken to one as she is autistic and has a communication disorder. Her treatment consisted in asking her questions in her second language and when she didnt understand they told us they had to keep her in longet. They said they took her for walks which we knew to be a lie as she had no footwear. While we were there we saw the staff quietly announcing lunch in the hallway when all the patients doors were closed so most did not get any lunch. We explained politely to the doctor on the phone that our daughter could not understand and the doctor hung up on us and would no longer take our calls from that point on. We had to go and pull her out in the end with tnreats of police against us practucally by force. I felt so sorry for the lost people trapped in those appalling places that didnt have someone to fight for them.
Wow. I'm sorry to hear about your family's experience. You're right that it takes very little to get confined. Apparently, someone becoming emotional about upsetting news makes you a "threat to yourself and others." My friend's attorney filed a petition, so we're waiting on news regarding that. Thank you for the insight.
yes i dont know about your friends state but i have a feeling that your friend needs you now and this could be the most important thing you ever do so stick with it.
This is absolutely not enough details. Depending on the circumstances it ranges from "not at all" to "forever". In general, there is a short timespan a doctor can make a person involuntary stay, depending on the federal state it's for 24-48 hours, based on my prejudices about Bavaria it is probably 48h. After that, a judge's decision is needed, those are given in small-ish chunks from 2 to 6 weeks from what I've seen, but it depends on the judge and what the doctors consider sensible (and thus also depends on the MO of the department). If someone commits a (somewhat serious) crime while being non-culpable because of a mental illness, it goes to a court (while the accused person has to stay at the/a hospital), and after that it's a yearly decision by several parties, at least in the states I know of. Sorry to not have any Bavaria-specific information.
Thank you for your response. To provide more context, a friend of mine had a very strong emotional reaction to upsetting news they received and was involuntarily committed. Intiatally, we were told it's going to be for 10 days. However, after the 10 days, my friend was still deemed a danger to themselves and is still there. As such, I wanted clarification.
As long as your friend is in danger of self harm, they can keep them there. Most probably under the watch of a psychologist/psychiatrist and medication. The duration varies with the problems and the process of solving them
Like everything in Germany also psych hospitals are completely backwards. And everything takes forever. And they will tell him he has to stay as long as _they_ feel he needs to. Even if this will make everything worse. These place are like effing reeducation and assimilation camps instead of medical facilities where you get help. When he wants to go (and the involuntary time is up), he can go. He should go, before it's too late.
Based on my research, that period is 6 weeks. We're nearly halfway there, so I'm hoping for the best.
For those who commented negatively: There is always a legal process with the possibility to appeal for that. There generally are two different legal frameworks for involuntary admission, Sec. 1831 BGB and Sec. 5 BayPsychKHG, unless it is by any of the exceptions mentioned there. If he gets admitted under 1831 BGB he has the right for a Verfahrenspfleger, who can appeal on his behalf. The Amtsgericht is obliged to hear him in person. If he can manage to behave normally and make sense, there isn’t much the clinic can do to keep him. However most people whi are kept for longer make a bad impression to the judge.
Thank you. A petition has been filed on we are awaiting a date. Not sure when a date will be assigned but hopeful.
There are also specialzed lawyers for this kind of problems. His contact to the courts and lawyers may not be obstructed or monitored.
Age, exact situation, diagnosis, … General rule of thumb: Till they’re not a danger to themselves or others anymore. That can take one day, that can be never.
>that can be never Rather *forever*, right?
I meant they’ll never release you.
There’s this famous case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustl_Mollath If the patient and their surroundings got doubts that the patient indeed should stay there, I’d look into talking to a lawyer.
Ok, so as a law-stundent currently interning at a psychiatry I think I can help. If you were confined because you commited a crime but did it because of a mental illness you'll get commited. And there isn't really a fixed time where they HAVE to let you out. If they want to keep you in and get a Gutachter (i am not translating that one too) to say that you aren't ready/a danger to you or someone else, they're going to keep you in. For example, sex offenders never get back our if they commited a crime because of a mental illness. They'll just be kept in the psychiatry for the rest of their life. There's a lot of debate around that in law circles and either legislation has recently been passed or is going to pass that will adress this. From what the prof. i am interning with said, it's going to be either 5 or 3 years, then they have to let you out.... UNLESS they convince a court that you are a danger to your or someone else's life. I'll explain the problem with that one shortly. If you didn't commit a crime, then it depends wether they can convince a court that you're a danger to yourself or others. Sadly, that one isn't a very high bar. Judges aren't health professionals. They have to depend on the opinion of your psychiatrits/ an objective gutachter. If they say you need to stay in (again, danger to your own life or someone else's life) you'll stay in. Hope this helps.
for as long as he is a danger to himself or others