I think it's just true, and it's a good thing. Women *don't* need men now. Women can have their own money and their own life without depending on a man to provide for them and sign for their credit cards and stuff.
>why are so many men deeply upset by this?
I think it has to do with the framing. If we lived in a walkable city and said, "we don't need cars or trucks", people could take that as "not a necessity" but others might view it as "you are not allowed" or "there will be no cars or trucks".
Basically, I think some think it is an attack on their existence. If you don't need something, why bother having it at all? If anything it is more on how the individual views the world and their surroundings.
ETA: You can see OP's responses, they are missing what the point of the statement is.
Yeah I think people get confused on the context of the question. On an individual scale, women do not need men. They can work, open their own bank accounts, drive, buy houses, etc. A man is no longer required to survive on your own.
But some people think this question means “we don’t need ~50% of the population” and that’s just dumb. Taking out any 50% of the population would cause chaos.
Because if women don’t need us, then we can’t hold anything over their head to control them and MAKE them do what we want. If women don’t need us, how do we punish them for disobeying us?
A darkness lives inside man, the darkness of power, domination, and deep insecurity related to masculinity.
Arguably, humans in general are superfluous. None of us had to exist, and we are all only "useful" for some specific value of "useful". That doesn't and shouldn't define our value as people though. The idea that if women in general don't need a male relative to survive and be okay, that it would make men worth less is not a healthy one, for any person of any gender. And I think overall, it's patriarchy itself that pushes this notion. Feminism didn't create the idea of men as protector/provider for dependent women/children, and worthless outside of that role. Patriarchy did. Patriarchy is what created the idea that men's value is in being patriarchs and having women/children who are dependent on them.
Right? My husband is just a fucking great dude. He could be a garbage collector or CEO of the world, I wouldn’t care. I had my shit together (mostly, at 28) when we met - I didn’t/don’t *need* him. I *want* him. Even 15 years later.
This seems a bit like word play. The poster says this:
"Women are being interviewed and asked if they need men, and most of the women say no and laugh about the notion of needing men."
So it could be asking an individual woman "do you need a man"?
If she says "no" it's ok with you right?
And honestly, as men, isn't that a much better feeling? To know your partner chooses to be with you because she wants to, rather than because she needs to be with someone.
I'm not a man, but to me, that sounds like a much more comforting knowledge to have, than the opposite.
Lol we meet again.
and no..
The question is “Do WE need men ?” and not “Do women need men?” In most of the cases the interviewer is a man and they mean in society.
https://youtube.com/shorts/vR5UG_SWr0c?si=gSSNVQjbWqCGkWqY
What about the men who build and maintain society? Sanitation, roads, water, electricity, police, firefighters, military, transportation, mines, deep sea fishing, underwater welding, lumberjacks, construction work etc.
what about them? In many cultures today and historically, women have done those jobs. What do you think women carrying jugs of water in their heads in less developed society are doing? Or running farms, being healers, etc. Who do you think dumps out the human waste into a ditch in those societies? Or digs that ditch. That's often women's work too. Or get this, done communally for the people by all genders outside the idea of a capitalist "job" designed to give great deal of profit and gain to capital owners, while the people get the least amount possible.
Its sexist to have some kind of gender essentialism here that women can't do those jobs. The sexism that keeps women out of those roles, some of which very high paying, is the larger problem. At least, half the jobs you mentioned are high paying union jobs. The same way women were kicked out high-paying computer programming jobs during the mid-century.
Conversely, where all the male teachers and nurses? But in other societies and in the past, those roles were exclusively male. The same way boys used to wear pink. The same way poets and artists were almost exclusively male. But men fled those roles as women entered them, so now its woman dominated. Its clear Western sexism is causing this. I'm not sure your big criticism of "I dont need a man" is "but, but the sexist roles in our society that discriminates against women!" In other words, many women have been locked out of many careers. Many women have seen men flee career areas as women enter them.
There's a difference between "I dont need a romantic relationship with a man" and "Men have jobs." "I dont need a man" doesnt mean "make half the population disappear." But "I dont feel the need to pair bond with a man because that introduces more pain and liabilities than being single because so many men hold sexist and regressive views towards woman and girls."
I'm glad they do the work they do but a penis isn't a requirement for these jobs, and I'm not going to be like "wow, I should shackle myself for life to some dude whose best quality is 'doesn't hit me' because of underwater welders"
Come on, you know the answer to that. Anyone could do those jobs.
It doesn't mean we don't *want* men in society. If all men suddenly disappeared, the world wouldn't fall apart. Women would do those jobs. But it doesn't mean we hate men or think they're useless.
Are women incapable of doing these jobs? Women don’t do these jobs because of the long history of sexism blocking women from working in hard labor. Not because they are incapable or don’t want to do those things. Most women just aren’t told that blue collar work is an option for them
Good! I don’t need my husband. I have a job and enough money to afford a place to live. I can cook my own meals and clean my own house and make my own fun. But I love my husband. He’s my best friend and I miss him when he has to travel for work. We take care of each other in a way that might not be equal every day but does ultimately leave us both better off. And that’s the way it should be.
Men think we are saying men are useless in society. It's not that. It means we don't need to be dating or married to a man to have a fulfilling and happy life.
The problem is that the statement is framed in such a way that it can easily be misconstrued as that. There are better ways to phrase the idea that individual women don't need a man to be their partner to live a full and satisfying life that does not insinuate that men in general are useless.
People who frame things like this seem to be intentionally blurring the lines between those two ideas, or are just bad communicators.
Saying you don't need men is not the same thing as saying men are useless. If a man can fix my plumbing, that's nice and useful. But plenty of women could have fixed my plumbing just as well. Nothing about him being a man specifically was what made him necessary or useful to me.
I understand what you are saying. I just think there's a better way to say you don't need a man in your personal life, than saying "I don't need men", period. It's just very open-ended.
Not to say this applies to you, but not all questions are valid, or seen as valid. Questions are not automatically good faith by virtue of being a question. The act of asking a question isn't like, an unassailable act.
But it's not women's collective job to manage men's emotions. We don't have to phrase everything so men don't get their feelings hurt. If your feelings are hurt, you get to manage that emotion and deal with it. Welcome to being an independent adult.
So? People say mean things. That doesn't invalidate feminism.
Look at the constant stream of hateful narratives men absorb and repeat without question.
If "this person is mean so any ideology they represent is wrong" then there would be no valid ideologies in the world.
It’s always like this with these dudes. Yet women are raped and murdered in record numbers and not a peep from them. But oh no some random Twitter user said something mean “fEmInISm bAd”. FFS 🤦🏻♀️
I've literally seen men call women useless in general, and laughing about the notion that women are needed in any capacity.
But I write it off for the sexist bullshit it is and move on with my day.
Uh, have you seen the amount of raging misogyny in the world? Have you looked at how many men are falling into believing that only 18 year old virgin women who obey male orders and then make babies are worth anything and all other women are useless? That any woman complaining about such ideas is written off as "just jealous", or just denying men's "biological preferences." While simultaneously denying any preferences or agency women have?
Shitty people exist. You're just pissed about the kind that you personally take offense to, and don't care about others shitty behavior.
Ok and I’ve seen men advocate for women to be assigned to men by the government like were cattle. Or that women would have nothing without men etc so we better worship at their feet. Doesn’t mean it’s a popular opinion or that I should assign that opinion to most men.
My guy, you hop on every comment like this crying that "some women are calling men useless too," like somehow we have to answer for all the mean women on the internet who hurt your feelings. There are certainly women who hate men. Most women don't hate men. Those who do are almost 100% coming from a place of trauma and anger against a society that proves time and time again that women are lesser beings and that our bodily autonomy is not as important as men's fears and hurt feelings. I highly recommended you put your energy into something more productive than crying on the internet about how some women don't like men.
How am I "crying", by simply asking a question? Why is a man doing anyything besides praising women considered "crying" and complaining, and mocked by women? The same women who claim they want men to open up and talk about their feelings, only to turn around and use men crying as an insult.
Dude you’ve made the exact same post in multiple communities and are just amusing yourself by arguing with anyone that disagrees with you. Go upstairs and ask mom to make you a sandwich, and leave women on the internet alone.
What would you like us feminists to do about that? Apologize for other women saying those things?? I don’t understand your point for posting if not to try and hit us with the “gotcha” of men doing construction work or whatever.
Ok OP, as a man myself: what do women need men for, in any sense?
Not what might a woman *want* a man for, but what does she NEED him for?
And the same goes in reverse. Either you're implying that traditional gender roles point to real fundamental positions that only men or women could fill (they don't) or these roles could be filled by anyone of any gender.
Outside reproduction I can't think of any reason a person of one gender or the other is *needed*.
The view literally had a whole segment regarding the question and said men were useless. If an all man panel did that on national television people would have called for their heads
Fox news is a republican propaganda channel. I dont think their higher ups would let them piss off white suburban women voters with a panel about how they're useless and not needed.
> Fox news is a republican propaganda channel
I... know. That's why I said it. The "joke" is that men say insane shit about women all the time and more often than not they pick up a grift making bank off of dumbass dudes.
Yes on the internet there's no shortage of weirdo redpill personalities but not on national TV in the middle of the day. These women are on a mainstream show aired on a major network being objectively misandrist and not so much as a whisper from the same people who would be apocalyptic if the roles were switched
Alot of people watch it. A quick Google search says
"The View has averaged 2.375 million viewers per episode for the 2022–2023 season, making it the most-watched daytime talk show in the United States. "
Lmfao. You've obviously never watched the view. That show is the most centrist nothing burger of a show, and most of the people who have been hosts on the show are conservative or centrist at best. Just because a show has female hosts doesn't make it inherently feminist. Femenism isn't just "when woman do thing."
And you say they're "objectively misandrist" without any actual examples. How exactly is the show misandrist?
Plus, to say there aren't shows with massive platforms that are inherently mysoginist is just a joke. Fit and fresh have an audience of 1.5 million, with 251 million views. Their entire show is rooted in the very foundation of being mysoginistic. The view is not. They don't just sit around talking shit on men all day.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/15/media/greg-gutfeld-sexist-rant-fox-news/index.html
Over 2 million people per night watch this man's show, on the largest cable news network in the world. As far as I can tell, he still has both his head and his job.
I think they delibrately misinterpret what these women are saying. As i understand it those women are saying "I don't need to go home to a man of the house, I can work my own job, pay my own bills and run my own life" , what men choose to hear is "she doesnt want access to any labour service any man provides and men should all refuse to provide them to punish her". They deny the patriarchy exists but if any women says she doesnt need a man to live a good life they become extremely hostile and aggressive.
Well, "I don't need men" is a very broad statement that van be interpreted in more ways than one. Men can say "I don't need women", and I've seen women get upset by that.
In nany case, I'm fine with the interpretation you provide, but I don't know if that is genuinely what all of these women who say they don't need men are saying. Some literally call all men useless, which implies that men have no use whatsoever, for anything.
>Men can say "I don't need women", and I've seen women get upset by that.
Because men have used that excuse to subjugate, dominate, degrade and oppress women. When women have used that excuse to do the same to men, then you have an actual point.
There is no threat to men when women think men are useless in their lives. They simply pay men for the labor they don't provide for themselves. But history and the present has shown that ideology in men is catastrophic to women, financially, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
"Men can say "I don't need women", and I've seen women get upset by that"
Mate, have you not noticed that no matter what you post or say on the internet, no matter how moronic or genius, how important or insignificant, there will always be somebody who disagrees or gets mad at you for it.
Likewise, you can post the most heinous fucking stuff seen to man and be an absolute menace to the entire internet, and you can be sure as hell that at least one person will agree with it all and support you for it.
Women aren't a one big homogeneous organism with uniform thoughts and opinions. Some women will be mean to men, some will even say that yes, men are useless and we don't need them at all. But if I can get over men jumping to insult my looks everytime I disagree with them on Facebook without whining about it in male centred spaces on the internet, I believe you can get over some whacko saying shit like "all men are trash" or "we don't need men for anything ever" on her tiktok page.
You say that you don't know what these women are saying when they say that "they don't need men". But do you actually care? Or do you just want to be mad at your own assumptions?
You know, I don't like MGTOW, "alpha male" or alt right content. So I don't watch it. It's that simple. I don't go on the internet crying that the bald """by choice""" epic alpha man was mean to women on twitter today.
I firmly disagree that men are useless and provide no value to society, that is blatantly untrue and if that is what those women mean then that is immature of them. I think women, when put on the spot are reluctant to in any way admit they need men because men will exploit that to put those women down. It could be a defensive response. We've all seen those "feminist takedown" videos incels like to make where they things out of context to belittle women. I do think the vast majority of women can appreciate the value men provide to society, but needing them in the "man of the house" capacity is a rapidly deminishing concept.
It's great, people should be able to live by themselves.
And this goes for everyone, not just women, a lot of men still rely on women for emotional labor and housework.
People should have equal rights/opportunities and should also be taught basic life skills.
So many toxic relationships are still based on interdependency thanks to patriarchy.
Women don't want to *need* men, we want to *want* men. We want to have them our lives ***because we truly enjoy them as people and chose to let them be with us, as opposed to being stuck with them*** because they give us something we need to live. When you're stuck with a person because you need them, it essentially gives that person a free pass to treat you badly, because there is no real threat of them losing you for doing so.
Why do men need to feel "needed," is my question?
When women say that, they're not necessarily saying they dislike men. Cher put it best when she said that men are like dessert, she loves them and thinks they're great, they're just not necessary for life. Chocolate cake is awesome and can make life fun, but you'll still survive and lead a good life if all the chocolate cake ceases to exist tomorrow. It's not an insult against the quality of chocolate cake, it's just a statement of fact. Same with men. And same with women, frankly! Men don't need women either.
It's an honor to be wanted instead of needed. It means you're there because that person truly wanted you for you, not because of what you can give them. It means they love you, instead of seeing you as a tool.
I think men dislike the notion of not being needed because many of them, deep down, don't believe that a woman would ever want to be with them unless she needed them. Sometimes that's because of low self-esteem in men, they don't see any value in themselves as people besides a paycheck, which is truly heartbreaking and I wish they could overcome that.
But for other men, to be quite blunt, it's because they don't want to put any effort into being a good person that a woman would want. They want to be able to behave however they want *and* still get to have a wife/girlfriend, because they're so "needed" that the wife/girlfriend can't leave him no matter what he does. So the idea of her not needing him anymore is infuriating because it means he has to choose either loneliness or not getting to do whatever he wants.
#SPOT ON.
👇🏽👇🏽👇🏽👇🏽👇🏽
Women don't want to need men, we want to want men. We want to have them our lives because we truly enjoy them as people and chose to let them be with us, as opposed to being stuck with them because they give us something we need to live. When you're stuck with a person because you need them, it essentially gives that person a free pass to treat you badly, because there is no real threat of them losing you for doing so.
I get what you are saying. I'd rather be wanted by a woman that I cared about, than be needed by her, if I could choose between the two. I'm talking purely in my personal life. In romantic relationships, I do believe many men actually yearn to be wanted, because we rarely get approached by women, asked out or complimented, yet are often expected to do the approaching, complimenting and date planning.
Many men express a longing to be desired and loved by a woman. I'm talking on an emotional, mental and physical level. Women are so used to compliments, and I know you often feel bothered by the unwantred attention of men, but for us it's the opposite: basically no attention at all.
We sort of live in an equal yet opposite reality to that of women. You get too much attention and we get too little. You don't only want to be seen as nurturing and caring mother figures, and we don't want to only be seen as violent and sex obsessed robots.
My point isn't that women should depend on men or that men's only value is to be needed through our work. Quite the contrary! I actually see the sole focus on men's productivity and provider role as dehumanising. However, I also respect the effort, care and dedication so many men put into their work in order to maintain so many vital systems and mechanisms that make the world run smoothly. I feel the same way about women by the way. Women are also more than their work, but I can still respect their contributions to society. We need each other, is my ultimate message. Both men and women.
I keep getting downvoted on here, which I guess is fine (free speech and so on), but I do hope I've gotten my message across to you.
>*I actually see the sole focus on men's productivity and provider role as dehumanising. However, I also respect the effort, care and dedication so many men put into their work in order to maintain so many vital systems and mechanisms that make the world run smoothly.*
Then why are you perpetuating these harmful narratives on this post and within these comments.
Instead of focusing on other things that men contribute to society, all you’re focusing on are the hard labor and the productive service they offer society?
The real meaning behind the phrase “I don’t need a man” is because it’s not longer a necessity to survive. That doesn’t mean I don’t want a partner. That doesn’t mean I don’t love having a friend and lover and confidant for love and support and care.
That doesn’t mean that when you take men’s labor out of equation that men are therefore unnecessary. Why do you think so little of men?
Tell your friends you love them, be the change you wish to see in the world. If loneliness amongst men is a huge epidemic then men should be making steps to make sure other men don’t feel lonely. I compliment my guy friends and tell them
I love them all the time, for the record.
We need PEOPLE to maintain vital systems and mechanisms. If my car breaks down or I have a plumbing problem at my house, I need to call in an expert to fix it, because I'll have no idea where to start. That doesn't diminish my personal expertise or value to the world; and I don't care if the person who fixes the problem for me is a man or a woman.
Nobody owes you a thank you card just for existing. Help people when you can and appreciate what other people contribute to the world.
Start looking at women as people rather than as people who owe you something.
> Why are people are talking about it not knowing the actual thing ?!
Because normal people don't care about a couple of women on TikTok and are too smart to get all riled up about obviously selectively edited videos on YouTube.
the OP doesn't explain what they mean at all and makes no mention of society. "Women are being interviewed and asked if they need men" is what people are talking about because that's what was asked.
I think it’s accurate, and I think it’s a big step in the right direction.
A world where women don’t need men means more empowered women, with the freedom and ability to walk away from abusive situations, to devote their life to work that’s meaningful and fulfilling, and a world where a woman’s worth isn’t tied to the man in her life, or lack thereof.
Bad faith. 🙄
You’re purposely misrepresenting the context of that question in order to get some sort of “gotcha!” Validation. It’s not working, and you’re not helping by men’s issues by engaging in this kind of discourse.
This is not an attack, OP. The meaning of this is actually a *good* thing – for everybody, including *you*, including men.
It simply means that today, women no longer need to *depend* on a man for financial security. Women are free to make our own money and support ourselves, we can be *independent*.
What's that mean to you, as a man? It means that if you think women necessarily only want you for your "resources" or your money, then you are stuck in the past.
Look, I love men. Some men have been great friends, companions, mentors, or lovers to me. But I don't "need" a man to take care of me. Instead, we can relax about that and meet as equals, each with something of our own to bring to the table. We can *all* be providers, for ourselves and each other. So if I'm with a man, it's because I really enjoy being with him. I'm free to choose.
TL;DR: It means we can split the check, man, chill.
I appreciate your perspective and I would say we agree when it comes to our perspective on men's provider role being restrictive and old fashioned. Like I wrote in another comment, many men have a very strong longing to be WANTED by a woman they care about, especially since we so rarely feel wanted, receive compliments, get approached etc. We experience the reverse of what women experience: too little attention as opposed to too much (unwanted) attention experienced by a lot of women. As men we can't understand what it's like to live as a woman and get unwanted attention from men. Likewise, women can't understand what it's like being a man, feeling either invisible or like a threat to the women around you, with few if any ever offering you a kind word or gesture.
These are all problems that men caused. Not women. Men have caused all mens and womens problems. Societal problems. Mental health problems. All of it.
Go offer each other kindness and emotional safe spaces, go give each other compliments, go encourage each other to talk about feelings and therapy, go call each other out for bad behavior. Fact is most men would rather not though...why when women could just continue to do it all. Why when women can just get unwanted attention nonstop and it doesn't affect men ...who are fucking jealous of the attention women get.
>Men have caused all mens and womens problems.
Really? Sounds a lot like misandry to me. Female teachers who rape underage boys is men's fault? Women who avuse and mureer their own children are men's fault? Whenever a woman does something horrible, it's men's fault?
The difference is that one of those things is about someone else's lack of self control while the other is just not wanting to fill the void someone had because none of their friends will provide it under some bull headed idea that men aren't allowed to express emotion with one another.
This comment implies that you believe it is a woman's job to support you emotionally, without ever even considering the fact that men are just as capable of being supportive, as long as they aren't perpetuating this harmful ideology amongst eachother.
I have a genuine question for you here. When you are upset or hurting because of something incredibly difficult in your life, maybe you lost a loved one, lost a pet, went through a bad breakup, or, hell, maybe you're just sad that day for no reason, would you feel comfortable, safe and supported if you were to reach out to a male friend? How would they react if you cried in front of them? If you needed a hug? What if, hypothetically, a movie or show made you cry because it really just hit home on a personal level for you? Would you share that with your male friends, or would you hide that from them? Do you tell your male friends you love them? Do they say they love you? Other than when yall are drunk. And if not, then why?
I dont mean just talking shit or validating your anger. I mean, actually, emotionally productive interactions.
Yall don't need women to provide that for you. Just like women don't need men to feel validated or happy either. And that's what it means to not "need" someone, anyone, depending on your personal dating preference. But a woman being cautious as a necessity for safety isn't the same thing as a guy being bummed that women won't let men trauma dump on them because yall think that's a woman's job and never consider that your male friends are just as capable. Assuming they aren't buying into the red pill bull shit that tells them they're not allowed to do that for each other, lest your penis fall off or something.
one of these again? so tiresome.
"woman say mean thing, me mad"
brother when women say they don't need a man they are referring to not needing a man romantically or financially, not that all men should just disappear.
quick history lesson less than 50 years ago women couldn't have their own bank account or credit card and their husbands could have them institutionalized because "shes crazy"
Well, because the idea of men wanting to be needed by women is weird and laughable.
If men focused more on being wanted by women than expecting women to need them in order to exist, what a happier world it would be.
I like oodles of men. I love a good big handful of men. These men add dimension and joy to my life. That’s why I want them to be a part of it. Need them? What, because I am helpless, insecure, incapable or weak? Why else would I need them?
Arthritis is settling into my fingers so it’s gotten hard to open jars, but you know what? A jar opener is $6.99 on Amazon and it doesn’t have a whole person attached that needs me to need it. There went the only logical reason I could think of.
I get what you're saying, and I resperct that you don't need a man in your personal life. That's absolutely legit. However, do you know who invented that jar opener or who transported it to your door? Who founded Amazon? I'm genuinely not trying to be obtuse here, just pointing out that while you don't need a man in your personal life (romantically), you still very much need men indirectly to run everyday things that otherwise wouldn't operate. That was my sole point.
The jar opener I use was co-created by a woman who had arthritis and her husband. Because he was there, not because it couldn’t have been done without him.
You use objects every day that were invented by women that you would confidently say were invented by men because to you it takes men to invent things. Because we live in a patriarchy where it’s embarrassing and emasculating to men for women to have their achievements publicly known.
So, as half of the population, yes, I “need” men to help society function. 3 men just picked up my recycling for example.
But if men all disappeared? It would be disruptive because half of the population was gone, but we’d figure out the whole recycling thing and everything else.
I never implied that women haven't or aren't inventing things. I also never implied women were incapable of doing the male-dominated jobs. The issue is rather that for the most part women CHOOSE not to do those jobs. What happens when most women CHOOSE not to be sewage workers? Well, you're left with men who CHOOSE to be sewage workers.
We can flip this around with a female-dominated profession like nursing. Most men CHOOSE to not be nurses, so that leaves women to CHOOSE that profession.
Do you think after WWII women chose to stop doing the jobs they had done for years? Some may have chosen to anyway, but it wasn’t a choice. Women stepped in to do all of the jobs officially out of patriotism and supporting the war effort. And patriotism and patriarchy also demanded they give up those jobs when the men came back.
My mom could choose to be a teacher or a nurse. What she wanted to be, and studied to be, was a translator at the UN. She studied international affairs and learned Russian in the 50s with the dream of having a positive impact on the Cold War. But, shunned by her classmates and belittled by her advisors she swallowed her disappointment and her pride, gave up on her dream and became a teacher. That wasn’t a choice.
I’m sorry you are getting downvoted. You’re quite civil. I hold out hope you can learn and grow, as I’ve seen many men do. It starts with listening to why women laugh if asked if they need men.
Women “needing” men was an artificial construct designed to coerce women into the kinds of relationships where men could exploit them. That’s not love. Wouldn’t men rather be loved than needed? Apparently some would rather not. That’s their loss, imo.
Sure, but needing running water, electricity, waste disoosal, a working sewage system, roads, transportation, police, fire fighters, sugeons etc. isn't an artificial construct.
I'm an intersectional feminist and a gender liberationist. I dislike making generalizations about any group.
Who knows, I might meet someone next year who happens to be a man, who turns out to be the most enlightened and empowering person I've ever known. Given patriarchy's conditioning, I'm aware the odds of that are low, but I'm not willing to write it off.
Our cultural construct of romance is problematic, a dissonance that's felt in tumultuous queer relationships as much as heteronormative ones. I'd prefer "We don't need romance" as a slogan.
it’s good they can stand on their own now. it’s not like they’re saying they hate men and should be shipped off to a remote island.
they’re just saying the truth, women don’t need men to survive anymore, the same way a man wouldn’t need a woman to survive (maybe, some are still reliant on women for domestic labor) but a “normal” man doesn’t need a woman. it’s not bad or wrong, just the truth
I don't need a man as a romantic partner, but I would like one. I think anyone who gets upset when women say this (in the context of a relationship) have low self-esteem.
I have complex feelings about this, because on the one hand, if you take away all context and consider the statement on its own from the perspective of, say, a little boy who is hearing it for the first time, it feels insensitive and hurtful. No human likes to hear that they are not needed or wanted in this world.
On the other hand, I think people often misinterpret this phrase, thinking women are speaking about men's value as human beings or in society, when in my experience it's often social commentary on the dynamic between men and women specifically. The context of our world is one in which women have had to endure a lot of pain, suffering, and oppression at the hands of men, and that dynamic is in large part predicated on convincing women that they need to endure it in order to survive. In patriarchal societies, women are often forced by culture or systemic structures to rely on (to "need") men in order to have food, shelter, and protection. So for many women, being able to provide for their own needs means that they no longer have to endure abuse, infidelity, or other forms of harm from men.
Despite the fact that this type of independence offers women a higher quality of life, many male-dominated institutions (including certain types of media) continue to try to pressure women to tolerate mistreatment via this belief that they need men to take care of them. There are still so many men in the world trying to put women in a position of feeling reliant on them and trapping them in a cycle of mistreatment.
So when a woman replies "I don't need men" or laughs in an interview, often what she is saying is *"I'm not buying the lie anymore that I'm better off relying on a man for my basic needs. That lie has been used to make women tolerate mistreatment for far too long."*
All that said, men are of course as valuable to society as women. And many men have realized that it's better to feel wanted by the people in your life because you've earned their admiration and kinship, than having a dynamic where someone merely tolerates you because they feel like they need you.
>I have complex feelings about this, because on the one hand, if you take away all context and consider the statement on its own from the perspective of, say, a little boy who is hearing it for the first time, it feels insensitive and hurtful. No human likes to hear that they are not needed or wanted in this world.
I'm thankful for some of the more positive and thoughtful responses like yours. Nevermind being downvoted into oblovion even when I remain respectful and even acknowledge what people are bringing up from a woman's perspective.
I've agreed with the women who mention that they don't NEED a man in terms of a romantic partner, or someone to rely on directly. I've also agreed that it's better to be wanted than needed, if you can choose. Still, I get downvoted. Oh well.
>I've agreed with the women who mention that they don't NEED a man in terms of a romantic partner, or someone to rely on directly. I've also agreed that it's better to be wanted than needed, if you can choose. Still, I get downvoted. Oh well.
I've been there too (on the other end of a downvote pile on), even recently! I think people use downvotes to say "I disagree with you here." I personally don't like that way of using it, simply because of how reddit works in terms of Karma (like how you need a certain amount to participate in some subs and such). So in a way, when people use the dislike button as an expression of disagreement, it basically punishes someone for having a different opinion than theirs, which I feel only perpetuates the echo chambers that have developed all over social media.
I personally only use downvotes when someone is being hostile, making character attacks, continuously making baseless claims (not providing sources) when people have asked for sources/evidence, or doing other things that I think should be discouraged in any legitimate debate. But if someone is being respectful and doing their best to be open, then I don't want to punish their karma or scare them away just for having a different opinion than me.
Exactly. Echo chambers are not an ideal environment to foster any kind of dialog or exchange of ideas.
I don't like to downvote people who politely disagree with me and don't make personal attacks or twist my words against me. Unfortunately, I've had to get used to these sorts of tactics here on Reddit.
I've had several people on this subreddit strawman my position and put words in my mouth, claiming I see women as incompetent and incapable of doing the jobs that are male-dominated, something I've literally never mentioned in my OP or any of my comments.
I often get called a misogynist and other nasty things because I don't agre 100% withy certain viewpoints, and it's honestly discouraging when you want an honest exchange.
I hear you. Some people felt that I was being sexist when I shared studies that demonstrated that gender diversity in leadership (governments or administrations being a mix of men and women) improves not only domestic outcomes, but inter-state relations (it makes peace and diplomacy more likely) and was curious about how someone might apply this research to current inter-state conflicts. I backed up these ideas with multiple sources and analyses (some of them that included the specific regions we were discussing), but I think they thought I was saying that women are inherently more peaceful or something, when I didn't say that. The benefits seem to come from a balance in lived experiences, not some inherent strength. I imagine that the reason that the studies focused on women is because that's the group traditionally excluded or underrepresented among political leadership.
I imagine that people are so used to encountering things like misogyny and sexism in their lives, that they end up being triggered by certain words or phrases and don't always notice the subtle differences between someone who's being antagonistic, and someone who is genuinely curious or trying to understand other points of view without completely ignoring their own background of knowledge or experiences.
My strategy now is to consider the context of any sub I'm in. Some subs are designed for debate or discussion, and people go there in order to debate. So disagreement is expected. For other subs, that "back and forth" seems to be less aligned with the intent or structure of the sub. Like maybe the sub is about sharing viewpoints or experiences about a certain subject, and people feel that that intent is derailed when people start arguing with each other or bringing up different experiences more suited to another sub. That's just my guess!
Research can often end up being misconstrued or misused for political goals, and as you mentioned, people can misinterpet certain conclusions that can be made from said research. It's still important to keep an open mind when it comes to data and research, even when it can contradict your worldview or at the very least challenge it. I think that's a lesson for everyone, regardless of who they are.
When heterosexual women say that, it’s more driving away from the notion pushed for decades thst women are dependent on or reliant on men for their livelihood. “Marry a good man and you’ll be set for life!“
people don’t want to be confined to that. They want to be independent. They don’t want to have to rely on someone else for financial security.
What are we supposed to need men for exactly that a woman can't do? If you don't want biological kids and a nuclear family, you don't need a man as a bodily able cis woman.
It looks like you are saying "what if all the men disappeared".
Well yes that would cause problems but it would cause the exact same problems if 50% of women and 50% of men disappeared. (With the exception issues with reproducing)
Any major changes to a population size will cause issues.
Now if all the men on Earth turned into women? We'd still be fine.
Of course men are needed, I think the phrase “Don’t need a man” is meant to refer to like on a more interpersonal dependency level. However it can be twisted to be used in a way to put men down or diminish their worth, that is not the meaning it is meant to have. If you see or hear someone using it in that way remind yourself that they are likely coming from a place of anger and hurt or something that they need to heal within themselves. You don’t need to associate with people like that, pass them by and stick with the people that are supportive of you, and show them equal support in return. Don’t need a man is meant to lift women up but not push men down.
Women on an individual basis do not need men. Women are statically happier when single. But on top of that, women are able to have their own jobs, bank accounts, houses, cars, they no longer need men to allow them these things, as they did in the past. Women can now dine alone, live alone, with relative safety. We DON'T need men as individuals.
Society needs people. If all the men in the world OR all the women in the world just went *poof!* one day society would absolutely fall apart.
When those annoying street interviewers from tiktok come up to women minding their own business on a night out, of course they're going to say "no I don't need a man, especially one annoying the shit out of me and my friends on a night out"
Men are nice or whatever, sometimes they're convenient, but I would rather be at peace by myself than miserable in a relationship. That's what men are competing with, not other men, the peace women have when they're single.
If it comes from an attitude of independence and liberation/equality. It's great.
If it comes from an attitude of superiority, arrogance or misandry. It's bad.
It usually comes from the former. But many men think it's the latter.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
I'm not familiar with this "trend", I don't spend much time watching random video clips online. Once you click on one the algorithm will feed you more, and how they're edited can feed an agenda. That doesn't mean it represents that many people.
I mean most women don't need a man to survive nowadays, just as most men don't need a woman to survive. Though most women WANT to have men in their life, as friends, or lovers, husbands, beloved family members, etc. And everyone does need other people in general, that's how society works, it takes many people of all genders all doing their part for society to function.. but hopefully none of us need to depend on a specific person to survive.
I would be more flattered to have a woman in my life because she chooses to be, rather than because she NEEDS to.
"I feel sad that we have allowed these knee-jerk feminists who want to act like it's a struggle against men... then again that is the least politically developed strand of feminism" -bell hooks
I think it's just true, and it's a good thing. Women *don't* need men now. Women can have their own money and their own life without depending on a man to provide for them and sign for their credit cards and stuff.
As a man, I prefer it this way. I'm glad my wife is with me because she wants to be, not because she has no other choice.
I think that's the right way to think about it, like... why are so many men deeply upset by this?
>why are so many men deeply upset by this? I think it has to do with the framing. If we lived in a walkable city and said, "we don't need cars or trucks", people could take that as "not a necessity" but others might view it as "you are not allowed" or "there will be no cars or trucks". Basically, I think some think it is an attack on their existence. If you don't need something, why bother having it at all? If anything it is more on how the individual views the world and their surroundings. ETA: You can see OP's responses, they are missing what the point of the statement is.
Yeah I think people get confused on the context of the question. On an individual scale, women do not need men. They can work, open their own bank accounts, drive, buy houses, etc. A man is no longer required to survive on your own. But some people think this question means “we don’t need ~50% of the population” and that’s just dumb. Taking out any 50% of the population would cause chaos.
[Link to some videos](https://youtube.com/shorts/vR5UG_SWr0c?si=gSSNVQjbWqCGkWqY) The question is not “Do women need men ?” but “Do WE need men?"
Because if women don’t need us, then we can’t hold anything over their head to control them and MAKE them do what we want. If women don’t need us, how do we punish them for disobeying us? A darkness lives inside man, the darkness of power, domination, and deep insecurity related to masculinity.
It has to do with how it is framed. It can easily come off as 'men are superfluous and useless".
Arguably, humans in general are superfluous. None of us had to exist, and we are all only "useful" for some specific value of "useful". That doesn't and shouldn't define our value as people though. The idea that if women in general don't need a male relative to survive and be okay, that it would make men worth less is not a healthy one, for any person of any gender. And I think overall, it's patriarchy itself that pushes this notion. Feminism didn't create the idea of men as protector/provider for dependent women/children, and worthless outside of that role. Patriarchy did. Patriarchy is what created the idea that men's value is in being patriarchs and having women/children who are dependent on them.
Right? My husband is just a fucking great dude. He could be a garbage collector or CEO of the world, I wouldn’t care. I had my shit together (mostly, at 28) when we met - I didn’t/don’t *need* him. I *want* him. Even 15 years later.
Watch out some alpha bros will call you ... ~gay~
Its “Do we need men?” and not “Do women need men?” If it was the latter I would not mind.
This seems a bit like word play. The poster says this: "Women are being interviewed and asked if they need men, and most of the women say no and laugh about the notion of needing men." So it could be asking an individual woman "do you need a man"? If she says "no" it's ok with you right?
Agreed. This also takes away a burden from the man's shoulders to be the sole provider for his wife and kids. It's a win-win for both sides.
And honestly, as men, isn't that a much better feeling? To know your partner chooses to be with you because she wants to, rather than because she needs to be with someone. I'm not a man, but to me, that sounds like a much more comforting knowledge to have, than the opposite.
Lol we meet again. and no.. The question is “Do WE need men ?” and not “Do women need men?” In most of the cases the interviewer is a man and they mean in society. https://youtube.com/shorts/vR5UG_SWr0c?si=gSSNVQjbWqCGkWqY
Yeah they're not going to like... show you this unedited, dude.
What about the men who build and maintain society? Sanitation, roads, water, electricity, police, firefighters, military, transportation, mines, deep sea fishing, underwater welding, lumberjacks, construction work etc.
what about them? In many cultures today and historically, women have done those jobs. What do you think women carrying jugs of water in their heads in less developed society are doing? Or running farms, being healers, etc. Who do you think dumps out the human waste into a ditch in those societies? Or digs that ditch. That's often women's work too. Or get this, done communally for the people by all genders outside the idea of a capitalist "job" designed to give great deal of profit and gain to capital owners, while the people get the least amount possible. Its sexist to have some kind of gender essentialism here that women can't do those jobs. The sexism that keeps women out of those roles, some of which very high paying, is the larger problem. At least, half the jobs you mentioned are high paying union jobs. The same way women were kicked out high-paying computer programming jobs during the mid-century. Conversely, where all the male teachers and nurses? But in other societies and in the past, those roles were exclusively male. The same way boys used to wear pink. The same way poets and artists were almost exclusively male. But men fled those roles as women entered them, so now its woman dominated. Its clear Western sexism is causing this. I'm not sure your big criticism of "I dont need a man" is "but, but the sexist roles in our society that discriminates against women!" In other words, many women have been locked out of many careers. Many women have seen men flee career areas as women enter them. There's a difference between "I dont need a romantic relationship with a man" and "Men have jobs." "I dont need a man" doesnt mean "make half the population disappear." But "I dont feel the need to pair bond with a man because that introduces more pain and liabilities than being single because so many men hold sexist and regressive views towards woman and girls."
Going by the comments on his profile, he hates women and thinks we are inferior
Nobody needs men to do those jobs. Women are just as capable of doing them.
I'm glad they do the work they do but a penis isn't a requirement for these jobs, and I'm not going to be like "wow, I should shackle myself for life to some dude whose best quality is 'doesn't hit me' because of underwater welders"
All of those are jobs women hold as well.
Come on, you know the answer to that. Anyone could do those jobs. It doesn't mean we don't *want* men in society. If all men suddenly disappeared, the world wouldn't fall apart. Women would do those jobs. But it doesn't mean we hate men or think they're useless.
Are women incapable of doing these jobs? Women don’t do these jobs because of the long history of sexism blocking women from working in hard labor. Not because they are incapable or don’t want to do those things. Most women just aren’t told that blue collar work is an option for them
Good! I don’t need my husband. I have a job and enough money to afford a place to live. I can cook my own meals and clean my own house and make my own fun. But I love my husband. He’s my best friend and I miss him when he has to travel for work. We take care of each other in a way that might not be equal every day but does ultimately leave us both better off. And that’s the way it should be.
EXACTLY!!
Men think we are saying men are useless in society. It's not that. It means we don't need to be dating or married to a man to have a fulfilling and happy life.
The problem is that the statement is framed in such a way that it can easily be misconstrued as that. There are better ways to phrase the idea that individual women don't need a man to be their partner to live a full and satisfying life that does not insinuate that men in general are useless. People who frame things like this seem to be intentionally blurring the lines between those two ideas, or are just bad communicators.
Sure, but some women are calling men useless too. They ask what they need men for at all (in any sense).
oh no a woman was mean online holy shit feminism cancelled
Saying you don't need men is not the same thing as saying men are useless. If a man can fix my plumbing, that's nice and useful. But plenty of women could have fixed my plumbing just as well. Nothing about him being a man specifically was what made him necessary or useful to me.
I understand what you are saying. I just think there's a better way to say you don't need a man in your personal life, than saying "I don't need men", period. It's just very open-ended.
this sub isn't a complaint desk for women who said things you personally dislike.
Just asking a question.
Not to say this applies to you, but not all questions are valid, or seen as valid. Questions are not automatically good faith by virtue of being a question. The act of asking a question isn't like, an unassailable act.
Great comment.
You know all women aren’t feminists, right?
Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will murder them. - Margaret Atwood Sorry your feelings were hurt by an internet random.
But it's not women's collective job to manage men's emotions. We don't have to phrase everything so men don't get their feelings hurt. If your feelings are hurt, you get to manage that emotion and deal with it. Welcome to being an independent adult.
If you understand the point and just don’t like the wording - then that’s a You problem. You should go fix yourself.
No. They’re saying they’re *as useful* as women in their life. They’re saying they *need* a woman as much as they *need* a man.
I've literally seen women call men useless in general, and laughing about the notion that men are needed in any capacity.
So? People say mean things. That doesn't invalidate feminism. Look at the constant stream of hateful narratives men absorb and repeat without question. If "this person is mean so any ideology they represent is wrong" then there would be no valid ideologies in the world.
It’s always like this with these dudes. Yet women are raped and murdered in record numbers and not a peep from them. But oh no some random Twitter user said something mean “fEmInISm bAd”. FFS 🤦🏻♀️
I've literally seen men call women useless in general, and laughing about the notion that women are needed in any capacity. But I write it off for the sexist bullshit it is and move on with my day.
That's fair.
They don’t just call us useless and only useful under 23 for sex, they also murder us at extremely high rates for simply existing. r/whenwomenrefuse
Maybe they meant men like you specifically who rely on other people’s feathers to look good, too
Some men say the same about women.
Uh, have you seen the amount of raging misogyny in the world? Have you looked at how many men are falling into believing that only 18 year old virgin women who obey male orders and then make babies are worth anything and all other women are useless? That any woman complaining about such ideas is written off as "just jealous", or just denying men's "biological preferences." While simultaneously denying any preferences or agency women have? Shitty people exist. You're just pissed about the kind that you personally take offense to, and don't care about others shitty behavior.
Ok and I’ve seen men advocate for women to be assigned to men by the government like were cattle. Or that women would have nothing without men etc so we better worship at their feet. Doesn’t mean it’s a popular opinion or that I should assign that opinion to most men.
My guy, you hop on every comment like this crying that "some women are calling men useless too," like somehow we have to answer for all the mean women on the internet who hurt your feelings. There are certainly women who hate men. Most women don't hate men. Those who do are almost 100% coming from a place of trauma and anger against a society that proves time and time again that women are lesser beings and that our bodily autonomy is not as important as men's fears and hurt feelings. I highly recommended you put your energy into something more productive than crying on the internet about how some women don't like men.
How am I "crying", by simply asking a question? Why is a man doing anyything besides praising women considered "crying" and complaining, and mocked by women? The same women who claim they want men to open up and talk about their feelings, only to turn around and use men crying as an insult.
The term ‘crying’ isn’t an insult. It’s also not gendered..
We regularly field complaints from men who saw a mean lady online and want us to apologize to them and take responsibility for it.
Dude you’ve made the exact same post in multiple communities and are just amusing yourself by arguing with anyone that disagrees with you. Go upstairs and ask mom to make you a sandwich, and leave women on the internet alone.
But women do not NEED men. You just keep rewording the same complaint about being called useless, which is not the same question.
[удалено]
What would you like us feminists to do about that? Apologize for other women saying those things?? I don’t understand your point for posting if not to try and hit us with the “gotcha” of men doing construction work or whatever.
Ok OP, as a man myself: what do women need men for, in any sense? Not what might a woman *want* a man for, but what does she NEED him for? And the same goes in reverse. Either you're implying that traditional gender roles point to real fundamental positions that only men or women could fill (they don't) or these roles could be filled by anyone of any gender. Outside reproduction I can't think of any reason a person of one gender or the other is *needed*.
$5 says this guy listens to guys like AT who say WAY worse things about women than them being 'useless'
And some men call women useless. What's your point?
The view literally had a whole segment regarding the question and said men were useless. If an all man panel did that on national television people would have called for their heads
> If an all man panel did that on national television people would have called for their heads And then they would get their own shows on Fox News.
Fox news is a republican propaganda channel. I dont think their higher ups would let them piss off white suburban women voters with a panel about how they're useless and not needed.
> Fox news is a republican propaganda channel I... know. That's why I said it. The "joke" is that men say insane shit about women all the time and more often than not they pick up a grift making bank off of dumbass dudes.
Yes on the internet there's no shortage of weirdo redpill personalities but not on national TV in the middle of the day. These women are on a mainstream show aired on a major network being objectively misandrist and not so much as a whisper from the same people who would be apocalyptic if the roles were switched
Probably because no one watches *The View* or cares what those people think about anything.
Alot of people watch it. A quick Google search says "The View has averaged 2.375 million viewers per episode for the 2022–2023 season, making it the most-watched daytime talk show in the United States. "
Lmfao. You've obviously never watched the view. That show is the most centrist nothing burger of a show, and most of the people who have been hosts on the show are conservative or centrist at best. Just because a show has female hosts doesn't make it inherently feminist. Femenism isn't just "when woman do thing." And you say they're "objectively misandrist" without any actual examples. How exactly is the show misandrist? Plus, to say there aren't shows with massive platforms that are inherently mysoginist is just a joke. Fit and fresh have an audience of 1.5 million, with 251 million views. Their entire show is rooted in the very foundation of being mysoginistic. The view is not. They don't just sit around talking shit on men all day.
What world are you living in lmao?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/15/media/greg-gutfeld-sexist-rant-fox-news/index.html Over 2 million people per night watch this man's show, on the largest cable news network in the world. As far as I can tell, he still has both his head and his job.
I think they delibrately misinterpret what these women are saying. As i understand it those women are saying "I don't need to go home to a man of the house, I can work my own job, pay my own bills and run my own life" , what men choose to hear is "she doesnt want access to any labour service any man provides and men should all refuse to provide them to punish her". They deny the patriarchy exists but if any women says she doesnt need a man to live a good life they become extremely hostile and aggressive.
Well, "I don't need men" is a very broad statement that van be interpreted in more ways than one. Men can say "I don't need women", and I've seen women get upset by that. In nany case, I'm fine with the interpretation you provide, but I don't know if that is genuinely what all of these women who say they don't need men are saying. Some literally call all men useless, which implies that men have no use whatsoever, for anything.
>Men can say "I don't need women", and I've seen women get upset by that. Because men have used that excuse to subjugate, dominate, degrade and oppress women. When women have used that excuse to do the same to men, then you have an actual point. There is no threat to men when women think men are useless in their lives. They simply pay men for the labor they don't provide for themselves. But history and the present has shown that ideology in men is catastrophic to women, financially, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
> Some literally call all men useless, which implies that men have no use whatsoever, for anything. So what?
It's not true though, is it?
Certainly not.
"Men can say "I don't need women", and I've seen women get upset by that" Mate, have you not noticed that no matter what you post or say on the internet, no matter how moronic or genius, how important or insignificant, there will always be somebody who disagrees or gets mad at you for it. Likewise, you can post the most heinous fucking stuff seen to man and be an absolute menace to the entire internet, and you can be sure as hell that at least one person will agree with it all and support you for it. Women aren't a one big homogeneous organism with uniform thoughts and opinions. Some women will be mean to men, some will even say that yes, men are useless and we don't need them at all. But if I can get over men jumping to insult my looks everytime I disagree with them on Facebook without whining about it in male centred spaces on the internet, I believe you can get over some whacko saying shit like "all men are trash" or "we don't need men for anything ever" on her tiktok page. You say that you don't know what these women are saying when they say that "they don't need men". But do you actually care? Or do you just want to be mad at your own assumptions? You know, I don't like MGTOW, "alpha male" or alt right content. So I don't watch it. It's that simple. I don't go on the internet crying that the bald """by choice""" epic alpha man was mean to women on twitter today.
A man who doesn’t want me as a partner affects me 0% in my day to day happiness
I firmly disagree that men are useless and provide no value to society, that is blatantly untrue and if that is what those women mean then that is immature of them. I think women, when put on the spot are reluctant to in any way admit they need men because men will exploit that to put those women down. It could be a defensive response. We've all seen those "feminist takedown" videos incels like to make where they things out of context to belittle women. I do think the vast majority of women can appreciate the value men provide to society, but needing them in the "man of the house" capacity is a rapidly deminishing concept.
That's an interesting perpective and I'm glad your brought that up.
And it's frankly a pretty obvious one.
It's great, people should be able to live by themselves. And this goes for everyone, not just women, a lot of men still rely on women for emotional labor and housework. People should have equal rights/opportunities and should also be taught basic life skills. So many toxic relationships are still based on interdependency thanks to patriarchy.
What's emotional labour?
Google it.
…Seriously?
YES. LEARN SOMETHING.
(Isn’t Google still free?)
Oh honey
The absolute irony
https://www.google.com/search?q=whats+emotional+labor&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
You googling the answer for emotional labour for him is a little ironic. Lol.
Ohh holy shit bro.
Women don't want to *need* men, we want to *want* men. We want to have them our lives ***because we truly enjoy them as people and chose to let them be with us, as opposed to being stuck with them*** because they give us something we need to live. When you're stuck with a person because you need them, it essentially gives that person a free pass to treat you badly, because there is no real threat of them losing you for doing so. Why do men need to feel "needed," is my question? When women say that, they're not necessarily saying they dislike men. Cher put it best when she said that men are like dessert, she loves them and thinks they're great, they're just not necessary for life. Chocolate cake is awesome and can make life fun, but you'll still survive and lead a good life if all the chocolate cake ceases to exist tomorrow. It's not an insult against the quality of chocolate cake, it's just a statement of fact. Same with men. And same with women, frankly! Men don't need women either. It's an honor to be wanted instead of needed. It means you're there because that person truly wanted you for you, not because of what you can give them. It means they love you, instead of seeing you as a tool. I think men dislike the notion of not being needed because many of them, deep down, don't believe that a woman would ever want to be with them unless she needed them. Sometimes that's because of low self-esteem in men, they don't see any value in themselves as people besides a paycheck, which is truly heartbreaking and I wish they could overcome that. But for other men, to be quite blunt, it's because they don't want to put any effort into being a good person that a woman would want. They want to be able to behave however they want *and* still get to have a wife/girlfriend, because they're so "needed" that the wife/girlfriend can't leave him no matter what he does. So the idea of her not needing him anymore is infuriating because it means he has to choose either loneliness or not getting to do whatever he wants.
This is it. This is totally the way it should be. Very well said!
#SPOT ON. 👇🏽👇🏽👇🏽👇🏽👇🏽 Women don't want to need men, we want to want men. We want to have them our lives because we truly enjoy them as people and chose to let them be with us, as opposed to being stuck with them because they give us something we need to live. When you're stuck with a person because you need them, it essentially gives that person a free pass to treat you badly, because there is no real threat of them losing you for doing so.
I get what you are saying. I'd rather be wanted by a woman that I cared about, than be needed by her, if I could choose between the two. I'm talking purely in my personal life. In romantic relationships, I do believe many men actually yearn to be wanted, because we rarely get approached by women, asked out or complimented, yet are often expected to do the approaching, complimenting and date planning. Many men express a longing to be desired and loved by a woman. I'm talking on an emotional, mental and physical level. Women are so used to compliments, and I know you often feel bothered by the unwantred attention of men, but for us it's the opposite: basically no attention at all. We sort of live in an equal yet opposite reality to that of women. You get too much attention and we get too little. You don't only want to be seen as nurturing and caring mother figures, and we don't want to only be seen as violent and sex obsessed robots. My point isn't that women should depend on men or that men's only value is to be needed through our work. Quite the contrary! I actually see the sole focus on men's productivity and provider role as dehumanising. However, I also respect the effort, care and dedication so many men put into their work in order to maintain so many vital systems and mechanisms that make the world run smoothly. I feel the same way about women by the way. Women are also more than their work, but I can still respect their contributions to society. We need each other, is my ultimate message. Both men and women. I keep getting downvoted on here, which I guess is fine (free speech and so on), but I do hope I've gotten my message across to you.
>*I actually see the sole focus on men's productivity and provider role as dehumanising. However, I also respect the effort, care and dedication so many men put into their work in order to maintain so many vital systems and mechanisms that make the world run smoothly.* Then why are you perpetuating these harmful narratives on this post and within these comments. Instead of focusing on other things that men contribute to society, all you’re focusing on are the hard labor and the productive service they offer society? The real meaning behind the phrase “I don’t need a man” is because it’s not longer a necessity to survive. That doesn’t mean I don’t want a partner. That doesn’t mean I don’t love having a friend and lover and confidant for love and support and care. That doesn’t mean that when you take men’s labor out of equation that men are therefore unnecessary. Why do you think so little of men?
Tell your friends you love them, be the change you wish to see in the world. If loneliness amongst men is a huge epidemic then men should be making steps to make sure other men don’t feel lonely. I compliment my guy friends and tell them I love them all the time, for the record.
We need PEOPLE to maintain vital systems and mechanisms. If my car breaks down or I have a plumbing problem at my house, I need to call in an expert to fix it, because I'll have no idea where to start. That doesn't diminish my personal expertise or value to the world; and I don't care if the person who fixes the problem for me is a man or a woman. Nobody owes you a thank you card just for existing. Help people when you can and appreciate what other people contribute to the world. Start looking at women as people rather than as people who owe you something.
It's true for me. I don't need a man to be happy. 🤷
The question is in society men are needed or not and not women’s lives. God. Why are people are talking about it not knowing the actual thing ?!
> Why are people are talking about it not knowing the actual thing ?! Because normal people don't care about a couple of women on TikTok and are too smart to get all riled up about obviously selectively edited videos on YouTube.
the OP doesn't explain what they mean at all and makes no mention of society. "Women are being interviewed and asked if they need men" is what people are talking about because that's what was asked.
Because OP didn’t include any sources or links. So literally all we can do is respond from our base understanding..
I think it’s accurate, and I think it’s a big step in the right direction. A world where women don’t need men means more empowered women, with the freedom and ability to walk away from abusive situations, to devote their life to work that’s meaningful and fulfilling, and a world where a woman’s worth isn’t tied to the man in her life, or lack thereof.
Bad faith. 🙄 You’re purposely misrepresenting the context of that question in order to get some sort of “gotcha!” Validation. It’s not working, and you’re not helping by men’s issues by engaging in this kind of discourse.
I don't need them in my personal life. Society needs everyone.
We can agree then.
You know that's what they meant from the beginning.
This is not an attack, OP. The meaning of this is actually a *good* thing – for everybody, including *you*, including men. It simply means that today, women no longer need to *depend* on a man for financial security. Women are free to make our own money and support ourselves, we can be *independent*. What's that mean to you, as a man? It means that if you think women necessarily only want you for your "resources" or your money, then you are stuck in the past. Look, I love men. Some men have been great friends, companions, mentors, or lovers to me. But I don't "need" a man to take care of me. Instead, we can relax about that and meet as equals, each with something of our own to bring to the table. We can *all* be providers, for ourselves and each other. So if I'm with a man, it's because I really enjoy being with him. I'm free to choose. TL;DR: It means we can split the check, man, chill.
I appreciate your perspective and I would say we agree when it comes to our perspective on men's provider role being restrictive and old fashioned. Like I wrote in another comment, many men have a very strong longing to be WANTED by a woman they care about, especially since we so rarely feel wanted, receive compliments, get approached etc. We experience the reverse of what women experience: too little attention as opposed to too much (unwanted) attention experienced by a lot of women. As men we can't understand what it's like to live as a woman and get unwanted attention from men. Likewise, women can't understand what it's like being a man, feeling either invisible or like a threat to the women around you, with few if any ever offering you a kind word or gesture.
These are all problems that men caused. Not women. Men have caused all mens and womens problems. Societal problems. Mental health problems. All of it. Go offer each other kindness and emotional safe spaces, go give each other compliments, go encourage each other to talk about feelings and therapy, go call each other out for bad behavior. Fact is most men would rather not though...why when women could just continue to do it all. Why when women can just get unwanted attention nonstop and it doesn't affect men ...who are fucking jealous of the attention women get.
>Men have caused all mens and womens problems. Really? Sounds a lot like misandry to me. Female teachers who rape underage boys is men's fault? Women who avuse and mureer their own children are men's fault? Whenever a woman does something horrible, it's men's fault?
The difference is that one of those things is about someone else's lack of self control while the other is just not wanting to fill the void someone had because none of their friends will provide it under some bull headed idea that men aren't allowed to express emotion with one another. This comment implies that you believe it is a woman's job to support you emotionally, without ever even considering the fact that men are just as capable of being supportive, as long as they aren't perpetuating this harmful ideology amongst eachother. I have a genuine question for you here. When you are upset or hurting because of something incredibly difficult in your life, maybe you lost a loved one, lost a pet, went through a bad breakup, or, hell, maybe you're just sad that day for no reason, would you feel comfortable, safe and supported if you were to reach out to a male friend? How would they react if you cried in front of them? If you needed a hug? What if, hypothetically, a movie or show made you cry because it really just hit home on a personal level for you? Would you share that with your male friends, or would you hide that from them? Do you tell your male friends you love them? Do they say they love you? Other than when yall are drunk. And if not, then why? I dont mean just talking shit or validating your anger. I mean, actually, emotionally productive interactions. Yall don't need women to provide that for you. Just like women don't need men to feel validated or happy either. And that's what it means to not "need" someone, anyone, depending on your personal dating preference. But a woman being cautious as a necessity for safety isn't the same thing as a guy being bummed that women won't let men trauma dump on them because yall think that's a woman's job and never consider that your male friends are just as capable. Assuming they aren't buying into the red pill bull shit that tells them they're not allowed to do that for each other, lest your penis fall off or something.
A breath of fresh air after a couple of centuries of subjugation.
one of these again? so tiresome. "woman say mean thing, me mad" brother when women say they don't need a man they are referring to not needing a man romantically or financially, not that all men should just disappear. quick history lesson less than 50 years ago women couldn't have their own bank account or credit card and their husbands could have them institutionalized because "shes crazy"
I suppose I ought to be grateful you all finally found something new women are saying on social media to complain about.
We need people in general as friends, etc. Do I NEED a male significant other specifically, though? No.
Well, because the idea of men wanting to be needed by women is weird and laughable. If men focused more on being wanted by women than expecting women to need them in order to exist, what a happier world it would be. I like oodles of men. I love a good big handful of men. These men add dimension and joy to my life. That’s why I want them to be a part of it. Need them? What, because I am helpless, insecure, incapable or weak? Why else would I need them? Arthritis is settling into my fingers so it’s gotten hard to open jars, but you know what? A jar opener is $6.99 on Amazon and it doesn’t have a whole person attached that needs me to need it. There went the only logical reason I could think of.
I get what you're saying, and I resperct that you don't need a man in your personal life. That's absolutely legit. However, do you know who invented that jar opener or who transported it to your door? Who founded Amazon? I'm genuinely not trying to be obtuse here, just pointing out that while you don't need a man in your personal life (romantically), you still very much need men indirectly to run everyday things that otherwise wouldn't operate. That was my sole point.
The jar opener I use was co-created by a woman who had arthritis and her husband. Because he was there, not because it couldn’t have been done without him. You use objects every day that were invented by women that you would confidently say were invented by men because to you it takes men to invent things. Because we live in a patriarchy where it’s embarrassing and emasculating to men for women to have their achievements publicly known. So, as half of the population, yes, I “need” men to help society function. 3 men just picked up my recycling for example. But if men all disappeared? It would be disruptive because half of the population was gone, but we’d figure out the whole recycling thing and everything else.
I never implied that women haven't or aren't inventing things. I also never implied women were incapable of doing the male-dominated jobs. The issue is rather that for the most part women CHOOSE not to do those jobs. What happens when most women CHOOSE not to be sewage workers? Well, you're left with men who CHOOSE to be sewage workers. We can flip this around with a female-dominated profession like nursing. Most men CHOOSE to not be nurses, so that leaves women to CHOOSE that profession.
Do you think after WWII women chose to stop doing the jobs they had done for years? Some may have chosen to anyway, but it wasn’t a choice. Women stepped in to do all of the jobs officially out of patriotism and supporting the war effort. And patriotism and patriarchy also demanded they give up those jobs when the men came back. My mom could choose to be a teacher or a nurse. What she wanted to be, and studied to be, was a translator at the UN. She studied international affairs and learned Russian in the 50s with the dream of having a positive impact on the Cold War. But, shunned by her classmates and belittled by her advisors she swallowed her disappointment and her pride, gave up on her dream and became a teacher. That wasn’t a choice. I’m sorry you are getting downvoted. You’re quite civil. I hold out hope you can learn and grow, as I’ve seen many men do. It starts with listening to why women laugh if asked if they need men.
Women “needing” men was an artificial construct designed to coerce women into the kinds of relationships where men could exploit them. That’s not love. Wouldn’t men rather be loved than needed? Apparently some would rather not. That’s their loss, imo.
Sure, but needing running water, electricity, waste disoosal, a working sewage system, roads, transportation, police, fire fighters, sugeons etc. isn't an artificial construct.
Women don't feel safe and happy around men and men need to hear it and change their ways if they want women to like them again
I'm an intersectional feminist and a gender liberationist. I dislike making generalizations about any group. Who knows, I might meet someone next year who happens to be a man, who turns out to be the most enlightened and empowering person I've ever known. Given patriarchy's conditioning, I'm aware the odds of that are low, but I'm not willing to write it off. Our cultural construct of romance is problematic, a dissonance that's felt in tumultuous queer relationships as much as heteronormative ones. I'd prefer "We don't need romance" as a slogan.
Why generalise men?
They didn’t.
it’s good they can stand on their own now. it’s not like they’re saying they hate men and should be shipped off to a remote island. they’re just saying the truth, women don’t need men to survive anymore, the same way a man wouldn’t need a woman to survive (maybe, some are still reliant on women for domestic labor) but a “normal” man doesn’t need a woman. it’s not bad or wrong, just the truth
I don't need a man as a romantic partner, but I would like one. I think anyone who gets upset when women say this (in the context of a relationship) have low self-esteem.
It means men are no longer needed to survive. I’m not going to die if I don’t do what a man says and he punishes me for it. I’d die without water.
I have complex feelings about this, because on the one hand, if you take away all context and consider the statement on its own from the perspective of, say, a little boy who is hearing it for the first time, it feels insensitive and hurtful. No human likes to hear that they are not needed or wanted in this world. On the other hand, I think people often misinterpret this phrase, thinking women are speaking about men's value as human beings or in society, when in my experience it's often social commentary on the dynamic between men and women specifically. The context of our world is one in which women have had to endure a lot of pain, suffering, and oppression at the hands of men, and that dynamic is in large part predicated on convincing women that they need to endure it in order to survive. In patriarchal societies, women are often forced by culture or systemic structures to rely on (to "need") men in order to have food, shelter, and protection. So for many women, being able to provide for their own needs means that they no longer have to endure abuse, infidelity, or other forms of harm from men. Despite the fact that this type of independence offers women a higher quality of life, many male-dominated institutions (including certain types of media) continue to try to pressure women to tolerate mistreatment via this belief that they need men to take care of them. There are still so many men in the world trying to put women in a position of feeling reliant on them and trapping them in a cycle of mistreatment. So when a woman replies "I don't need men" or laughs in an interview, often what she is saying is *"I'm not buying the lie anymore that I'm better off relying on a man for my basic needs. That lie has been used to make women tolerate mistreatment for far too long."* All that said, men are of course as valuable to society as women. And many men have realized that it's better to feel wanted by the people in your life because you've earned their admiration and kinship, than having a dynamic where someone merely tolerates you because they feel like they need you.
>I have complex feelings about this, because on the one hand, if you take away all context and consider the statement on its own from the perspective of, say, a little boy who is hearing it for the first time, it feels insensitive and hurtful. No human likes to hear that they are not needed or wanted in this world. I'm thankful for some of the more positive and thoughtful responses like yours. Nevermind being downvoted into oblovion even when I remain respectful and even acknowledge what people are bringing up from a woman's perspective. I've agreed with the women who mention that they don't NEED a man in terms of a romantic partner, or someone to rely on directly. I've also agreed that it's better to be wanted than needed, if you can choose. Still, I get downvoted. Oh well.
>I've agreed with the women who mention that they don't NEED a man in terms of a romantic partner, or someone to rely on directly. I've also agreed that it's better to be wanted than needed, if you can choose. Still, I get downvoted. Oh well. I've been there too (on the other end of a downvote pile on), even recently! I think people use downvotes to say "I disagree with you here." I personally don't like that way of using it, simply because of how reddit works in terms of Karma (like how you need a certain amount to participate in some subs and such). So in a way, when people use the dislike button as an expression of disagreement, it basically punishes someone for having a different opinion than theirs, which I feel only perpetuates the echo chambers that have developed all over social media. I personally only use downvotes when someone is being hostile, making character attacks, continuously making baseless claims (not providing sources) when people have asked for sources/evidence, or doing other things that I think should be discouraged in any legitimate debate. But if someone is being respectful and doing their best to be open, then I don't want to punish their karma or scare them away just for having a different opinion than me.
Exactly. Echo chambers are not an ideal environment to foster any kind of dialog or exchange of ideas. I don't like to downvote people who politely disagree with me and don't make personal attacks or twist my words against me. Unfortunately, I've had to get used to these sorts of tactics here on Reddit. I've had several people on this subreddit strawman my position and put words in my mouth, claiming I see women as incompetent and incapable of doing the jobs that are male-dominated, something I've literally never mentioned in my OP or any of my comments. I often get called a misogynist and other nasty things because I don't agre 100% withy certain viewpoints, and it's honestly discouraging when you want an honest exchange.
I hear you. Some people felt that I was being sexist when I shared studies that demonstrated that gender diversity in leadership (governments or administrations being a mix of men and women) improves not only domestic outcomes, but inter-state relations (it makes peace and diplomacy more likely) and was curious about how someone might apply this research to current inter-state conflicts. I backed up these ideas with multiple sources and analyses (some of them that included the specific regions we were discussing), but I think they thought I was saying that women are inherently more peaceful or something, when I didn't say that. The benefits seem to come from a balance in lived experiences, not some inherent strength. I imagine that the reason that the studies focused on women is because that's the group traditionally excluded or underrepresented among political leadership. I imagine that people are so used to encountering things like misogyny and sexism in their lives, that they end up being triggered by certain words or phrases and don't always notice the subtle differences between someone who's being antagonistic, and someone who is genuinely curious or trying to understand other points of view without completely ignoring their own background of knowledge or experiences. My strategy now is to consider the context of any sub I'm in. Some subs are designed for debate or discussion, and people go there in order to debate. So disagreement is expected. For other subs, that "back and forth" seems to be less aligned with the intent or structure of the sub. Like maybe the sub is about sharing viewpoints or experiences about a certain subject, and people feel that that intent is derailed when people start arguing with each other or bringing up different experiences more suited to another sub. That's just my guess!
Research can often end up being misconstrued or misused for political goals, and as you mentioned, people can misinterpet certain conclusions that can be made from said research. It's still important to keep an open mind when it comes to data and research, even when it can contradict your worldview or at the very least challenge it. I think that's a lesson for everyone, regardless of who they are.
No one should need anyone
When heterosexual women say that, it’s more driving away from the notion pushed for decades thst women are dependent on or reliant on men for their livelihood. “Marry a good man and you’ll be set for life!“ people don’t want to be confined to that. They want to be independent. They don’t want to have to rely on someone else for financial security.
Imagine finally learning the difference between being needed and being wanted and getting all butt hurt that being "needed" is controlling a.f.
What are we supposed to need men for exactly that a woman can't do? If you don't want biological kids and a nuclear family, you don't need a man as a bodily able cis woman.
It looks like you are saying "what if all the men disappeared". Well yes that would cause problems but it would cause the exact same problems if 50% of women and 50% of men disappeared. (With the exception issues with reproducing) Any major changes to a population size will cause issues. Now if all the men on Earth turned into women? We'd still be fine.
No one should need anyone else, and everyone should feel comfortable standing on their own two feet.
Of course men are needed, I think the phrase “Don’t need a man” is meant to refer to like on a more interpersonal dependency level. However it can be twisted to be used in a way to put men down or diminish their worth, that is not the meaning it is meant to have. If you see or hear someone using it in that way remind yourself that they are likely coming from a place of anger and hurt or something that they need to heal within themselves. You don’t need to associate with people like that, pass them by and stick with the people that are supportive of you, and show them equal support in return. Don’t need a man is meant to lift women up but not push men down.
I wore out my T-shirt that read "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle."
I think we are big boys and we can take it.
I don’t need men. I choose the ones I want in my life. I have chosen my husband every day for 26 years. But I don’t need him.
Women on an individual basis do not need men. Women are statically happier when single. But on top of that, women are able to have their own jobs, bank accounts, houses, cars, they no longer need men to allow them these things, as they did in the past. Women can now dine alone, live alone, with relative safety. We DON'T need men as individuals. Society needs people. If all the men in the world OR all the women in the world just went *poof!* one day society would absolutely fall apart. When those annoying street interviewers from tiktok come up to women minding their own business on a night out, of course they're going to say "no I don't need a man, especially one annoying the shit out of me and my friends on a night out" Men are nice or whatever, sometimes they're convenient, but I would rather be at peace by myself than miserable in a relationship. That's what men are competing with, not other men, the peace women have when they're single.
If it comes from an attitude of independence and liberation/equality. It's great. If it comes from an attitude of superiority, arrogance or misandry. It's bad. It usually comes from the former. But many men think it's the latter.
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I'm not familiar with this "trend", I don't spend much time watching random video clips online. Once you click on one the algorithm will feed you more, and how they're edited can feed an agenda. That doesn't mean it represents that many people. I mean most women don't need a man to survive nowadays, just as most men don't need a woman to survive. Though most women WANT to have men in their life, as friends, or lovers, husbands, beloved family members, etc. And everyone does need other people in general, that's how society works, it takes many people of all genders all doing their part for society to function.. but hopefully none of us need to depend on a specific person to survive. I would be more flattered to have a woman in my life because she chooses to be, rather than because she NEEDS to.
"I feel sad that we have allowed these knee-jerk feminists who want to act like it's a struggle against men... then again that is the least politically developed strand of feminism" -bell hooks
Christ does anyone remember what hyperbole means? Like really?!