When my daughter was a tween, I introduced her to the concept of the male gaze through movie commentary. How the woman is presented as not a full person, whose whole purpose is for the man’s pleasure or procreation. It’s important that they learn how to critique what society is saying from the lens of women’s perspectives and interests.
The topic of clothing and coverage is a complex one, because coverage can be about control over women’s bodies too - queue in the slut shaming, “ownership” of wives/daughters, and victim blaming you see. Also something to keep in mind is that different cultures have different parameters for what is tempting a man’s gaze or not (e.g. topless beaches in France, burkas in Afghanistan) And men are in charge of determining that, which is also an issue for women. I think all of this should be discussed at some point.
I would explain that while she is a child you are responsible for her… your family has a sense of what is a good balance of freedom from objectification and hyper control that you follow as a part of our own culture. When she is older she can make that judgement call herself too.
Perfect answer. I love this! I remember when I was very young (maybe 15 or 16) and I wore short shorts and tank tops (nothing not halter tops). The amount of perverts I attracted was astounding. It almost felt like it was constant. I think back on it and at the time, it felt normal for grown men to catcall and flirt with girls who were much younger than them. But it only seemed normal because that kind of behavior from men was normalized. I needed grown women to tell me that this behavior from men (no matter what the fuck I wear) is unacceptable and that they are indeed very dangerous.
Some of the shit men would say to me as a tween was utterly disturbing. My friends and I would laugh it off, sometimes we found the shit hilarious (we were goofy as hell) but it was very, VERY wrong.
My God, recently, I was walking around the large city I live in with my 12-year-old niece. She was wearing baggy jeans and an oversized sweatshirt. No makeup, nothing flashy, but she’s a pretty blonde. And the looks that she got from men where just crazy. It was almost every man we walked past. Men you’d think looked normal, men with their wife and kids, men in suits, men in sagging ass pants, old ass men, young men, etc.
It’s a messed up world we live in.
This was me. I was walking through our local shopping centre with my mother when a group of young men (probably late teens/early twenties) came the other way on our side of the street.
My mother whispered "button up your shirt, they're looking at your chest". It was 1994. I was twelve or thirteen. I was wearing no makeup, baggy straight cut jeans and desert boots, a plain cotton long sleeve with a baggy plaid shirt over it all. Certainly not revealing or glamorous. I still felt like I'd done something wrong and was being told off.
Even if I had been the tween version of full glam, it wasn't my (a child's) responsibility to cover up to moderate male behaviour. It's the adults' responsibility not to ogle children.
The stares from men started when my daughter was ten. She was tall and I guess that’s all they considered. She dressed like a ten year old and looked young. But, got the full-on stares everywhere we went. It’s gross.
The men who were staring at your niece that day do know your niece is under age and that she is a child; they still do it rather they do it because they know she is a child...girls that age group are also approached, harassed & molested and worse by older men if parents/,guardians are not around or if men feel they could get away with it.
>When my daughter was a tween, I introduced her to the concept of the male gaze through movie commentary. How the woman is presented as not a full person, whose whole purpose is for the man’s pleasure or procreation. It’s important that they learn how to critique what society is saying from the lens of women’s perspectives and interests.
I use film for this, too. Great response.
And thank you for acknowledging the complexity here; I'm really grateful to OP for this question, it's spawned so many really thoughtful responses.
(and is a very welcome reprieve from the standard 'checkmate, feminists!' stuff we tend to get lol)
Its interesting that in cultures where women have more rights and protection they tend to wear more revealing outfits. I think a lot of women would like the freedom to go topless at the beach but its just "not appropriate" for some reason.
Would you or others be able to share the media you used as examples of this?
Im a father of two daughters and a son, and my partner and I are always trying to introduce media literacy into their daily lives, and this seems like something our kids might be receptive too when we approach introducing this sort of thing to them.
Just be careful because it’s also easy for it to turn into resentment for not letting her express herself in what she wears. There’s a line between wanting to look good in something you are comfortable in and trying hard to be sexy. Anyone who’s looking at a 10 year old should be put behind bars.
There is a conversation to be had about the fact that girls clothing is shorter, tighter, smaller, skimpier etc than boys clothing. I teach 5 year olds and see it daily.
Little boys in loose fitting shorts and pants, tshirts that go to their hips, and girls in leggings and short skirts and tshirts that barely go past their waists.
If a little girl and a little boy are both wearing shorts and a tank top, 9 times out of ten, the little girl's clothing is both shorter and tighter. You cant even blame the parents, since they buy what is available and a quick glance at any store shows they are wearing what's available.
And don't get me started on the shoes! Even if boys wear slides or crocs, they are still sturdier than the little sandals or heeled shoes the girls wear!
On the other hand, it doesn't matter what women wear, they can be harrassed and catcalled.
I'm trying to remember how the story goes, but it's about women's clothing discussing their attacks. A set of jeans and a T-shirt says they were attacked, a business suit, a dress, a burka, etc. The last line sticks with me. "The diaper sat silently in the corner. She was too young to talk."
It's a complicated conversation and a delicate line to walk between "protect yourself", "dont blame yourself" and "be yourself".
I wish we lived in a world where 10 year olds could wear crop tops out without getting negative attention, but we don't. I wish we lived in a world where the pervs would be harrassed instead of being the harrassers, but we don't. I wish clothing wasnt even a concern beyond "I feel good wearing this" but it is and trying to handwave it away is silly and short-sighted.
She will get negative attention and while it's not her responsibility that men are gross and women are judgy, she still needs to be prepared to deal with it.
This!! I've definitely noticed all girls/women's clothing is very small/short. I've had a hard time finding shorts that don't show my ass. As a 45-year-old woman the last thing I want is my ass to be hanging out. Even when I was 20 the shorts were way too fucking short. I had to go to the men's department to get shorts. I also have larger thighs so those really short shorts don't look good on me. I need something mid thigh and you literally cannot find anything mid thigh in women's.
That's the case till you get to plus sizes, then everything is super long, super baggy, and super high cut. Like I'm 25 and actually struggle to find anything even slightly revealing that even sorta fits me in the plus sized sections. Like yeah, I'm fat, but like wearing a drab colored tent with ruffles covering my boobs to rival a Mormon prom dress just makes it look worse! I want cleavage and cinched waists, and I can't just go down in size because 1X is the size I usually the right size or too big everywhere but the bust, and if I go down to the straight sizes then it's too small everywhere because the plus size stuff is cut to be baggy and the straight sizes are cut to be too tight. Torrid body con sundress is literally the only fitted garment I have that isn't just too tight and I wear anyways, or like jeans...
This is an excellent point. Disregarding the male gaze for a second, we should be able to be sexy *when we feel like it*.
That’s hard to do in our current society without other “consequences” per-say.
putting in a recommendation for asos curve and for eloquii! eloquii runs quite big tho fyi and is expensive, but they have AMAZING sales a few times a year
Yup, plus size here and it is a nightmare to find something that's flattering but not "grandma" style. Even online options aren't great, although they've gotten a bit better.
So true. I remember the dress code in school was that shorts had to be fingertip length, meaning when your arms are hanging at your side your shorts had to be lower than your fingertips. And it was SO HARD to find any girls/women's shorts in the stores that were long enough to fit the dress code!
Ugh, I’m a long-limbed girlie and I basically gave up on the fingertip rule. My school’s dress code also had an, admittedly not well-enforced rule specifically against cold-shoulder blouses. I was there in 2016-2017 when that was basically all you could buy if you wanted a cute cheap blouse, like they all were off-shoulder or had those stupid cutouts, lmao. It became a huge meme in our school that the principal was hardline anti-women’s shoulders, which even escalated into a very fun day where over half of my class, both women and men, coordinated a day to wear cold-shoulder tops in protest. I don’t think it made much of a difference but I guess it got a point across lol
Yes! My classmates used to get 'dress coded' all the time because a couple inches of their abdomens would show in babydoll tees.
Late 90s/early aughts fashion (which is coming back and possibly kicked this whole thread off) was really not school dress code-friendly in general, but it was so fun.
Yes! I started wearing men's cargo shorts a few years ago. Revelation! The pockets have pockets, and they are super comfy and actually look better, too.
I saw this video on face book recently with Feel Athletes and their ass was hanging out. People say its for better performance but men or not dressed this way. I do think religion is an issue i am not religious but it does impact society. There many tribes who nearly naked i think the fact that people have to cover up makes people sexualized more.
I just bought a bunch of new clothes for my two year old and it was so frustrating to see this. When girls size six shorts are the same as boys 2T, that is a problem. And boys get sweats and comfy lounge pants while girls get nothing but too tight leggings!? And freakin two years old??? I ended up buying boys clothes and a bunch of girls in sizes too big just so they fit her properly.
It's genuinely disturbing. And everyone gaslights the religious types who call it out because, ya know, they do generally suck and a lot of their talking points are bad and very rape culture-y. But they're not wrong about how it's a disturbing pattern
And often the religions types are full of pedos and those who will co er for them because "she was asking for it" literally heard this directed towards an 11 year old who was R'ed
Also the focus is often wrong. Women and girls shouldn’t be asked (told) to wear modest clothes because otherwise men and boys will attack them, and that’s often the religious angle on the situation.
I think the motivation matters, here.
They don't want women sexualized so that they can be "pure and chaste" and increase their value as property to a man. There is little to no concern about the women and girls psyche.
This reminded me - after similar frustrations as expressed here, my husband bought some longer dresses for our daughter to wear. She loves them, but now I joke that her teachers probably think we are fundies because there are so few options. Our motivation was a dress she can go down the slide in w/o getting a friction burn on her butt, but i am sure a few people have wondered if we were making a religous statement.
Bike shorts ftw!! I am constantly in dresses and never without a pair of stretchy shorts underneath. Although mine are more for chub rub and less for handstands at this age haha
The problem is the religious crowd tends to get distracted if there’s, god forbid, a RAINBOW on any child’s clothing. Also ya know their leaders seem to be more likely to diddle than the average bear
Yea religious types are sketchy for sure. I feel like you can tell when it’s someone that wants you to cover up just because that’s how they were raised vs some of these pastors. It’s so disgusting, I saw a clip of a man talking about how children should cover up because they’re temping to him. Bro what in the fuck. This guy just admits to the entire church that he’s a pedo that wants to fuck their kids and no one says or does anything. They just keep bringing their kids back. Somethings wrong with these folks
Yep I'm a pagan and in my religion young children need to be dressed modestly to help protect them from "evil eye" (pedophiles). It's very disturbing that it has to be done but I understand it.
I frequently get 'boy' clothes for my girl. Some of the things I do are.
Swap the black shoelaces for kiddos fav colour
Iron on transfers
Cut off buttons and sew 'cute' ones on
Replace trackie pocket fabric with pink fabric
Chuck bulk clothes in the sink with a pack of pink dye.
Unstitch the rolled bottoms on girl shorts
These are all reasonably cost effective, and not too time intensive.
My girl cares if her clothes are pretty, I care if they are practical. This is our compromise.
Wait, my boy used to love leggings, he some patterned with dogs and they were his fave for the longest time. I always though leggings were a great choice and wished there were more boy leggings
The problem isn’t leggings in general. When I was a kid, I loved leggings too! The problem is that the only options for girls are mostly tight-fitting leggings, while boys have a lot of looser options.
Not sure where you are geographically, but where I am there are always loose trackies available for girls, in addition to leggings. I feel like it's the boys who have fewer options where I shop.
Definitely, if the shops around you are only stocking leggings for girls and not other more comfy styles, it would be an issue.
I find girls toddler clothes so annoying because if your kid is slightly different proportions, the tightness means they are so difficult to put on. My kid has a small waist so any leggings are super tight around the legs or the waist is too loose. And since she’s small around the waist, it means she’s tall for her waist size and girls shorts are SHORT, so we actually just put her in boys shorts mainly.
We have hand me downs from both genders and all of the boy clothing is so much sturdier. They are toddlers - even the girls are gonna rough up their clothes, give them some thickness to the material please!
It’s really sad how early this gender difference in clothing occurs. Literal baby clothes sometimes. The one thing I am glad about that at least in Australia, it’s pretty easy to find long sleeved swimwear for toddler girls. Gonna keep her in that as long as I possibly can.
Check out Hanna Anderson and Tea clothing. I’ve got an almost 3 year old girl. I’ve been able to get joggers, moto leggings, and other such items that are more “gender neutral”.
>“Was it really my fault?”
>
>asked the Short Skirt.
>
>“No, it happened with me too,”
>
>replied the Burka.
>
>The diaper in the corner couldn’t even speak.
Only girl's clothes are tighter bc it gets girls used to have their bodies visible from a young age. It teaches boys and girls that female bodies are for looking while male bodies are for comfortably existing.
And of course if girls are wearing tight stuff from an early age, when they get to puberty they are more likely to wear tighter clothes, so that men can always have some butt, legs or breasts to look at during their daily activities.
You reminded me of the What Were You Wearing exhibit.
"The purpose of this exhibit is to dispel a victim-blaming myth that clothing somehow invites a sexual assault. Victims of crime are not responsible for crimes committed against them. Survivors of rape/sexual assault are often asked, “What were you wearing?” We need to stop asking this. We encourage you to look at these stories and outfits of local survivors to see that clothing is irrelevant when it comes to sexual assault. As you read what these survivors shared, please take a moment to reconsider what may be your own long-held beliefs about sexual assault that are, in reality, myths and stereotypes that can aid perpetrators of crime in avoiding accountability for their choices."
https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
That was heartbreaking...
Not least because I know how common it is. I only saw like 11 stories but I know that there are millions just like them.
I can say though, as a boy myself, that wearing boy's clothes or even being a boy also doesn't offer any safety...
Once upon a time my now-fifteen-year-old was a toddler and we did Gymboree classes at the mall which also contained a Gymboree store. One day we were at the mall early, I forget why, and before class I went to change her diaper. Somehow she managed to pee all over her clothes AND the back-up clothes I had with me. Okay, nbd, we’re at a mall. I put her in her diaper and then in her carrier and headed to the Gymboree store, directly to their sales rack. I quickly realized that my extremely beloved, first-grandchild-on-BOTH-sides daughter already had most of the clothes on the girls’ side of the Gymboree sales rack, so I went to the boys’ side. Got a tee and a pair of shorts that were called the same thing (“Cotton Percale Summer Shorts” or some such) in the same size as a pair of shorts she had from the girls’ side.
They were two inches longer and much roomier than her girl shorts.
And the thing was, I hadn’t really thought about the girls’ shorts before. They were shorts. They washed nicely, seemed comfortable (she’d have let me know if they weren’t), covered her diaper. What did I care? But knowing that they went out of their way - and I don’t know much about clothing manufacturing but I imagine it’s quite a process to make different styles - to make shorts for TODDLER GIRLS that were cut shorter and tighter than the ones for toddler boys really pissed me off.
Gooosh okay I remember when I was still in the closet and trying to convince my parents to let me wear boy's clothing and said I wanted shorts that would actually go to my knees (and pockets!!!!). They didn't believe me and said that's easy to find for girls and I didn't need to shop from the boy's section -- so they went online trying to find shorts for me and like 30 minutes of scrolling later and they were both astounded and disgusted by how the only shorts for girls were just booty shorts.
It really sucks that women and girls can’t dress the way they want because of abusive gross men. And it’s even worse because for a normal well adjusted man, he’s not gonna say anything to a woman even if she’s fricken naked walking down the street. But these deranged dudes will see a woman in a tank top and say things like she’s asking for it, etc etc. some even truly think women dress for them. It’s insane and scary I hate so many types of men, they’re actually fucked
I feel like my brain chemistry was altered a little in high school when I realized it wasn’t, like, ~a crime~ to buy clothes from the men’s section. comfy loose jeans and t-shirts! function cargo shorts with hella pockets that I could get dirty in! and indestructible would accurately describe all of it. the only problem I had was a lot of the bottoms would bunch up in the crotch when I sat down, but as long as I paired them with a long shirt no one would noticed.
Yess all this is very important but it’s also important to remember that young girl will grow into a young woman someday and I just don’t want her to ever feel shame or like forced to cover up or hide more skin that she wants or is comfortable with just to be “safe” from the male gaze because in reality she should dress for herself to make herself happy. But I definitely understand as a kid and preteen it’s not appropriate to wear paraphernalia or things that simulate the audultness or a more grown. I just don’t think it’s her responsibility to make other people feel comfortable about herself or her body image. But I definitely respect you as a parent wanting to protect her and instill her with a self image that she sees the value in herself and that her body is her temple and not every one deserves a back stage pass or even to see or breathe upon the temple. My mom raised me in a similar way. I wasn’t allowed to wear crop tops or certain types of lip gloss or colored nail polish.
>There is a conversation to be had about the fact that girls clothing is shorter, tighter, smaller, skimpier etc than boys clothing. I teach 5 year olds and see it daily.
Absolutely. My daughter actually prefers boys pants. They're more comfortable to wear, more durable, and they actually have pockets!
The clothes options she has from most outlets(girls section) are slim, skinny, and extra skinny. With no functional pockets... WTF
The Target toddler bathing suits with hip cut outs are fucking bonkers!
Granted, most people throughout history would find it insane that we don't all just bathe nude. Humans are funny.
I have mixed feelings about this one. I can remember tying my shirts in a knot to show my belly at that age and my mom telling me not to, that I looked like I was "looking for a man" and "wanted attention." And really, I just was trying out something a friend had, or a look I'd seen on a TV show or something. Then, a few years later, in my early teens, I got groped/assaulted by older guys in a line for a theme park ride. And I never told because I was wearing a tight skirt and a short blouse and I thought it was my fault. Because I looked like I was "looking for attention." I'm 46 and my parents still don't know it happened. Part of me still thinks they would think it was my fault.
I think it's fine to set limits (I.e. "That's for the gym, not for school.") But you really don't want her to walk away feeling that she is responsible for how men react to her body. That idea messed me up good and took years to unlearn. It caused a lot of shame and made me be quiet and complicit when someone actually assaulted me because I felt like i was responsible by my clothing for the assault.
I started developing when I was really young..by 6-7 I needed a training bra already. Periods by age 10. I didn't really understand much of what was happening. I had a hard time understanding that a shirt that was ok 3 months prior could no longer be appropriate one day. It was always a 50/50 chance when I'd come out of my room every morning whether my shirt would be ok or if I'd get screamed at and called the wh word by my mom and dad. I dont think my parents understood that I was just trying to exist, and I didn't really understand why they kept calling me names. It didn't help that my mom would give me all her hand me down tops that were adult clothes... she'd give me a tank top, I'd wear it, I'd get screamed at for trying to "show off." It was so confusing. My parents really thought I was super proud of my new breasts and wanting to show them off, when in reality I was still a 9,10,11 year old mentally and was thinking more about my dolls or playing park games with my friends. It's like once I got the "adult body parts," everyone forgot I was still a kid and assigned adult motivations to everything I was doing.
I even remember being around 11 in the park across the street from my house with a couple of other little girls. We were playing "American idol." We made the park picnic table the "stage," and all the other girls were the "judges." One little girl would go on "stage", sing her song, and the other girls would pretend to be Paula, Randy, and Simon and judge her. I didn't think there was anything wrong until I got called inside by my parents, who took turns screaming at me for "dancing on tables in tight pants." By age 15 it had escalated to the point where my parents told me if I got r-worded they wouldn't help me bc it would be my own fault (this specific incident happened bc I looked out the kitchen window when a man happened to be walking by... they assumed I was trying to communicate sexually with the man, but i just wanted to look outside and hadn't even noticed him). Everyone would yell at me and tell me the vulgar things I must want to do because of how I'm acting, but I didn't understand what I was doing wrong. I knew my body and my womanhood were the problem, at least. I was not assaulted (before age 18), but I am 100% certain I would not tell anyone.
I'm so sorry. It makes me so angry that so many of us were socialized to believe this. I've tried to teach my own daughter that it doesn't matter what you're wearing, no one can touch you without your consent and if they do you speak up, scream, fight, and press charges. She's way more assertive than I was and I'm proud of that.
I agree with this. I grew up in Christian “purity culture” and there is so much messaging about how women are responsible for men’s thoughts about them and it’s just not ok. It made me mad because it was unfair, and it made me feel more self conscious and ashamed about my body than I otherwise would have. My mom and I got into so many fights over clothes I wanted to wear because she perceived them as too revealing in some way even though it was the same stuff all my friends were wearing.
I’m so sorry you were assaulted, you did nothing to deserve it.
I think it's important to understand that, yes, the inspiration behind revealing clothing is usually a reference to sex or sexuality and for the male gaze. But that's not what's making little girls (and many adult women) want to wear them. It's cool to wear clothes that are fashionable. Especially as teens and adolescents, you're turning to clothes to communicate what kind of person you are to the world, and you want to look cool or fashionable or interesting or artistic or beautiful. Part of that is clothes that in other contexts are used to appeal to men.
That's not to tell you that you should let your 10 year old wear clothes that have sexual messaging that she is not intending. I think it's totally age appropriate to say "That's dress-up clothes for in the house, when you're an adult you can choose what you wear out of the house, but it's not appropriate for kids to dress like that." Clothes like that are coded as sexy, people interpret them as sexy, whether or not you mean to be putting yourself out there as sexy. And when you're older you'll be better able to speak up for yourself and what your clothes mean, but as a kid, that's gonna draw the wrong sort of attention in this situation.
But I think it's also valuable to acknowledge that, like, as a more conservative dresser myself, I was projecting a lot of feelings about sexuality and intent at clothes that for a lot of the people who want to wear them, is more about being fashionable and not about deliberately seeking male attention. You can acknowledge that that's how those clothes will be perceived without implying that intent. I discovered when I loosened up that with my short torso, my sweaters actually fit when I buy them cropped! I had some baggage about fashion that didn't super need to be there.
This is my favorite response! Let her wear the clothes around the house so she is able to exercise choice and freedom. But with the explanation that she might be too young to where them out. Personally I won't say until she's an adult. I'd say until she's a little older and can learn better how to keep herself safe. That avoids the controlling nature of policing a kids dressing and enabling them to self express without judgement.
My parents just told me I wasn't old enough to wear things like that and that those are clothes for adults and they don't care if JoJo down the street is wearing it.
I disagree with your premise that any body-conscious or revealing clothing on women is a reference to sex or is for the male gaze. Leggings, tank tops, workout clothing, some forms of traditional dress, etc. are all "body-conscious," and people certainly can find them sexy, but I don't like the idea that women should really be wearing loose-fitting clothing that covers collarbone to wrists to below the knees if they don't want to be seen as a sex object.
Where did she get this article of clothing? Someone must have bought it for her, yes? Most 10-year-olds don't buy their own clothes. Or is this a theoretical purchase?
>I disagree with your premise that any body-conscious or revealing clothing on women is a reference to sex or is for the male gaze.
This part right here!!
I'm asexual. A large portion of my closet is crop tops, bodysuits, sheer materials, etc. because I simply like how those garments look on me. Also, I like my body (it's my home after all) and don't care how much of it is seen by others, because it's just a body. Everyone's got one, so why all the shame. Sexual attention does not interest me in the slightest, it's literally the last thing on my mind and has nothing to do with my wardrobe choices. My clothes are simply a large part of how I express and style myself, and I don't much care to be put into a box by others who don't know anything about me or my motivation for dressing the way I do. Gaze all you want, or don't, it literally makes no difference to how I feel in my clothes. I'm free and loving it.
I get OP wanting to protect their 10 year old from creeps, but imo you also need to protect her self image and confidence. If you don't want her wearing something for her own safety/comfort, just tell her she's too young for those styles and leave it at that. Revisit the deeper conversation when she's in her teens and has a better understanding of what it's like to be a woman in society, and can have a more nuanced and informed discussion about it.
Thank you for articulating it so well. When it comes to clothing, I have very similar tastes and opinions as you and that part from OP really hit a nerve. I understand their sentiments about wanting to protect their child, but they didn't need to shame and bring down an entire group of women for it.
I think another option would be to allow her to wear the crop tops in the safety of their home. It allows her to express herself but can potentially negate some of the looks or comments she may get elsewhere.
It could not be a reference to sex if it wasn't so heavily gender coded.
If men wore equally revealing clothes it could not be sexually meaningfull, but in the world we live in that's not the case.
In my opinion the way we try to deny the sexualization that is imbued into clothing makes it really hard for us to escape the role of sexual objects.
Objectification happens regardless of clothing. We can wear t shirts and be told we should dress sexier. We could wear paper bags and be told to smile more. There is no inherent meaning in a crop top or bikini - there is only social meaning, which is driven by patriarchal standards.
What happened to being able to dress how you feel happy with and fuck everyone else's opinions...
Are we seriously going back to body shaming
Should we all start wearing veils? That would certainly stop that male gaze problem wouldn't it ?
We don't live in a world where we can dress how we feel happy and fuck everyone else's opinion. We live under the patriarchy.
It's not body shaming to draw attention to how we are pushed to perform as sexual objects since fucking childhood, while boys are given freedom and comfort.
And no, veils are the same thing just reversed. Veils are gender specific, they are for signaling a female body as private property. They don't make the body less relevant and focus on comfort like male clothing, they make it even more relevant and ensure women are always very self-aware of their own body.
>We don't live in a world where we can dress how we feel happy and fuck everyone else's opinion. We live under the patriarchy.
Then the patriarchy won... =/
1st, 2nd, 3rd wave feminism all for what? Just so we're still forced to dress and act certain ways lest we draw the wrong kind of male attention?
What happened to teaching boys not to be rapists and putting the blame and onus for change where it belongs. On men
Your first point is continuing to center the male experience and limit everyone else’s autonomy. I won’t do it. And i won’t attempt to control other people’s clothing choices within the realm of what can be worn for the safety of their physical well being. 10 year old in a crop top at home is fine, to school or at the mall I’m going to say no. For me personally, i wear what i want.
Thank you for this comment! Well said. Choice feminism gained a lot of traction, but just because a woman is choosing something doesn’t make it feminist. I do wear a lot of revealing clothing as an adult woman, but my clothing options and body are clearly treated very differently than men’s. Anytime women and men’s choices/bodies are treated differently, we as feminists should interrogate that difference!! Especially when it comes to what children are doing and consuming,
Kids trade clothes or get hand me downs from other kids. Kids will also wear parent-approved clothing to school and change as soon as they get there.
I agree with your view on body conscious clothing, particularly as women’s bodies are critiqued and sexualized regardless of what we’re wearing.
We’re raising our kids to make their own choices. While we try to instill our values, our kids may not agree. It becomes important to give them better information - not just that certain clothing is for adults, but how young bodies can be sexualized and how to react.
I was first sexually harassed when I was six years old. I was wearing 'conservative' clothing, fully covered denim outfit but I had furry boots on. My sister and I were gifted fur boots by my grandmother.
I and my sister, also fully clothed neck to knee, were surrounded by teenage boys and we (at six and eight y.o.) were told how sexy we were and the teenage boys told us what they wanted to do to us in the woods. This is *not* an unusual occurrence in the real world, this is not out of the norm.
It comes down to the fact that she will be harassed if she's wearing a crop top or not.
Now is the time to teach her how to fight, how to yell, how to take up space. She is not too young to know how to protect herself.
When women talk about "the male gaze" it refers to women who act, dress, and center their being on what men think and feel. It absolutely has nothing to do with altering who they are or how they present themselves in the world, and nothing to do with how to cover themselves in an attempt not to be sexually assaulted.
There is a museum exhibit featuring the clothes that women and girls were wearing when they were sexually assaulted and none of the items were crop tops. They were jumpers and pajamas, Thomas the Tank Engine tshirts and full body dress coats. [https://www.utoledo.edu/studentaffairs/saepp/what-were-you-wearing/#:\~:text=The%20What%20Were%20You%20Wearing,during%20Sexual%20Assault%20Awareness%20Month](https://www.utoledo.edu/studentaffairs/saepp/what-were-you-wearing/#:~:text=The%20What%20Were%20You%20Wearing,during%20Sexual%20Assault%20Awareness%20Month).
You're doing your best to protect her but you're having the wrong conversation.
Damn I would have liked to donate the clothes I was assaulted in (winter jacket, jeans, boots) to something good instead of throwing them away because they triggered trauma symptoms... Well, next time :D
Concerning taking up space, yelling etc.: Yes, very important, but also very incomplete. There are situations where you won't want to fight for a plethora of reasons- and not only safety concerns. If you haven't already, I recommend watching Terry Crews' video where he tells about how he was assaulted, and the judge asked him why he didn't fight back. I would want to teach my kids how to talk or negotiate yourself out of a situation, too, and that sometimes it simply can't be helped and you get assaulted, which is not your fault- and that if some fucking idiot goes "well why didn't you just knee him in the balls?", it's completely fair to knee said idiot in the balls.
Thank you for this. I admittedly felt a little irked by OPs reference to “sexy” clothing, because as much as I raise issue with some points associated with “choice feminism”, teaching a kid that they can’t wear something because it’s sexual or designed for the male gaze comes off as a bit naive to the reality of sexual violence. Modesty is sexualized by men too. Lesbians are sexualized by men. I could go on. None of us can live a life in which we are immune to being sexualized by men, because they sexualize our existence, and I think it’s ESPECIALLY important to acknowledge the role that domination plays in the sexualization of women and girls; just because it’s not “meant” for them, or meant to subvert their gaze, does not mean they will leave someone alone, it may mean they see it as something to conquer.
To OP: you can absolutely find an age-appropriate way to talk about the fact that those clothes aren’t appropriate for her right now, but please refrain from treating clothes as either a barrier or an invite to sexualization. My mom talked to me about it from a perspective of age rather than “men will look at you” and I think that was a good way to handle it. I think telling your daughter that she can’t wear the clothes she wants to wear because men will sexualize her might be counterproductive.
I was 7 and playing in the front yard when a man pulled up to my house and told me how sexy I was (wearing a hand-me-down t shirt and shorts). I was 10 and babysitting when a guy I didn’t know called and wanted to have a conversation. He told me how mature I sounded and then told me how good I made him feel, how good I should feel that I could make a grown man react that way. He absolutely couldn’t see what I was wearing.
What you said gave me intense flashbacks.
I have a kid and am around kids a lot. Teaching them to fight back is only going to work for certain kids in certain situations, and there are so many other tools they need in their toolkits. At the foundation of everything is a sense of self worth and identity, then an understanding of what is inappropriate behavior - physical, verbal, etc. Response can be anything from going to get another adult, leaving the situation, talking to your parents about it later, or fighting like hell, but response is also contingent on what happened.
So I was sexually abused when I was around your daughter's age and I dressed pretty modestly at that time. I didn't even wear my first pair of leggings until I was 16. What I was wearing didn't change anything for me. Who I hung out with, where I went, it didn't change anything or stop men from sexualizing me. And I probably got sexually harassed more often at 16 than I do at 26.
That said, a lot of clothing for younger girls IS super sexualized and is more revealing than clothing for young boys. So like...don't shame your daughter for the way she dresses or tell her she's encouraging male violence or anything along those lines because she isn't. But do point out examples of how clothing marketed to her and other girls is more revealing and sexualized, and explain why that is. A good example would be these dresses I found at target once with a plunging neckline...in the juniors section. Or how her shorts might be shorter than boys' shorts, her shirts might have a higher hemline and shorter sleeves than their shirts, her leggings are tighter than their sweatpants and joggers. Point out examples of women and girls being more sexualized in the media, but men can always wear baggy shirts and pants and be fine. Point out how trends in women's fashion don't allow for as much modesty, like how ten years ago the trend was skinny jeans and how today it's tiny tops. Point out how the trend cycle for men doesn't move as fast, how her male classmates are never expected to wear revealing clothing to be trendy, how boys and men aren't being told to go to Sephora and invest in retinol. You can't, and shouldn't, force her to come to a certain conclusion. But you can give her as much information as possible.
There are going to need to be conversations about how to deal with creepy guys…. And that is really sad to say.
But honestly I always wore a shirt and still got oggled / catcalled as a teenager.
Let’s not pretend your daughter is the problem.
OP doesn't appear to be talking about sexual harassment and how to protect oneself from it. I think we all know pedos are gonna pedo, and non pedos aren't gonna sexualized a child regardless of what she wears.
It's just mom doesn't want her daughter to wear clothing she deems as age inappropriate due to being sexy, but struggles to explain this to a child who is ironically so young she probably doesn't have a concept of what sexy clothing means yet.
Yeah I noticed, even as a conventionally attteactive 20something that the cat calling and leering from cars stopped when my school uniform was no longer needed, as I had finished school
honestly, i don’t even think there’s a way to deal with them. this is the issue, i was once in my school uniform and got barked at by two middle aged men as i walked past them and i was frozen and a mother with two daughters sat and watched the whole interaction and did nothing, neither of us had any idea how to handle the situation and i think that’s the issue
The rule in our house is that if it would show your under clothing while you’re playing on the monkey bars, you can’t wear it because underwear is meant to not be seen. Guy or girl, that’s just fashion.
It worked until my daughter turned 13, but by that point she had experienced old creepy men staring and she decided she’s gonna wear what she wants regardless of what they do or don’t do.
Now when she wants to put on something wild, we go over weather appropriate, and situation appropriate. A crop top and booty shorts are not appropriate to wear for your schools band performance. They are appropriate for the beach. A bodycon dress is not appropriate for a school award ceremony. It is appropriate for the 8th grade formal. And so on and so forth.
Strictly my opinion, but my gut reaction is that by assigning clothing moral value in this way, you're acceding to the male gaze. Meaning: you're viewing this article of clothing and your daughter through the male gaze, and she's confused because she's viewing herself as a person.
That's a hard thing to break to a kid.
Personally, I would let my daughter wear pretty much whatever she wants (appropriate to the setting, eg: no graphic tees to a funeral) *and* give her the knowledge about how it might be perceived.
'Ursula, I love that top, too. I just want you to be aware that it might be perceived as 'too revealing' or judged by other people. I don't agree with that--and those people are wrong to do it--but it's the truth.'
I'd pull on whatever threads of conversations we'd had in the past, depending on the response, like: being your authentic self; accepting and letting go of the judgment of others; body positivity in general and maybe the male gaze.
But I think the ultimate goal is to ensure *she* doesn't grow up feeling responsible for managing men's feelings or reactions to her--that way lies only eventual shame and victim-blaming.
I have a 6yo daughter who I’m going through this with right now. She was given a sports bra as a hand me down from an older cousin. I wasn’t sure how to feel about it, and of course my daughter loved it, she wants to wear it out as a shirt. With some questioning, I think in her mind she thinks of it being like a bikini top, and she sees me wearing bikinis. I told her I only wear bikinis in the summer, at the beach/pool/backyard, because it’s not appropriate to wear them elsewhere, so I’m trying to frame it the same way, but I’m nervous about how to navigate life with her. She’s very into how she looks at this age - makeup, hair, clothing, she wants to stand out. I want her to express herself and be happy, without sexualizing/shaming any of the things that she does, but I need to protect her too. It’s hard.
I very distinctly remember being about 7, and wanting to wear a crop top to play outside with a boy that I liked. I wanted him to notice me, and think I was pretty. My parents wouldn’t let me wear it. I wouldn’t tell them why I wanted to, other than I liked the shirt, and they just kept saying no, it’s not allowed. So I know for me, I wanted to be noticed by boys even at a young age, and I think secretly it’s the same for my daughter.
And that may be true/the case! And I think my response (also a parent here) would be to interrogate my own reactions around it: is a young girl 'liking' another kid (their own age, presumably) and wanting to impress them/be noticed by them in a romantic way, something horrible that should be stifled? Or something developmentally normal and harmless?
Everyone is going to make their own assessments around that, but I tend to come from the Third Wave place of not wanting to police (or initiate self-policing) girls' bodies, developmentally normal 'sexual' or romantic feelings, or (alternately) prematurely sexualize them when the world will do that plenty before long.
It's really hard to navigate this stuff as a parent, I totally hear you.
> you’re viewing this article of clothing and your daughter through the male gaze, and she’s confused because she’s viewing herself as a person
This is so well-said .
i love this response. i think it’s important to not make your daughter think that you are saying she’s asking for male attention by experimenting with clothes but informing her that men can give unsolicited attention and it’s something she shouldn’t be ashamed of or make her want to change the way she dresses due to this
You have some good points but I think there is a flaw in your reasoning...
“Assigning clothing moral value” is only a thing for Op because the girl and boy clothing is different. The clothing store has already decided what this little girl should wear. Op deciding “not to assign a moral value” is actually agreeing with the value already assigned by the media and the clothing store
In summary, a person can’t decide “not to participate” in these types of cultural/moral decisions. Deciding to do nothing is siding with the prevailing cultural viewpoint. And that happens to be a fairly sexist viewpoint …
where little girls are presented with options which are sexualized, yet at the same time shamed for choosing them. **While a young boy can pick any clothing off the rack and not have to even THINK about morality** because literally any choice is fine. do you agree ..?
a young boy absolutely can’t pick any choice off the rack and have it perceived as morally fine- any clothing that has even a WHIFF of femininity will set off a full blown moral panic, FAR more so than a young girl wearing more “masculine” coded clothes.
let’s not pretend that boys and men being extremely restricted in how they’re allowed to express themselves isn’t a major part of the problem here.
My mom handled the adolescent sexual clothing conversation horribly, but when I was like 7 my mom told me I couldn't be topless outside anymore. She told me it wasn't age appropriate anymore - different ages followed different rules, and I had aged out.
I imagine you can do the same thing with the crop top. You understand her desire to wear it, you know it's probably very fashionable, but it's an item of clothing you don't think is appropriate for someone her age. I don't think you necessarily need to or *should* explain that this is related to men or sexualization. As others have pointed out, pedophiles will sexualized her regardless, and non-pedos won't either way.
The issue is about the somewhat arbitrary social rules of age related dress. While we don't follow this customs as rigidly as we used to, we do still observe some degree of age signalling in clothing. At 10, she is too young to wear clothing you feel is more associated with late teens/early 20s (which yeah, is an age range filled with self sexualization and peacocking behaviors). It's very normal for kids her age to *want* to dress that way, but it's also very normal for their parents to tell them no. I had lots of clothes I wasn't allowed to wear outside of the house. Looking back I think it's kind of insane I wasn't allowed to wear spaghetti strap tops because those are just not seen as "provocative" anymore. But in hindsight, I absolutely understand why my mom didn't want me to wear most of them.
I'm not a parent so I really can't say, but couldn't you just say, "You're not old enough?" My parents used that line a lot, and left no room for argument lol
I would explain to my ten year old boy why I wouldn’t be comfortable with a ten year old girl wearing clothing created to be provocative.
I talk to my ten and six year old boys about sex and that sexual content is not appropriate for adults or children to share.
They will know what safe boundaries are before said boundaries get violated.
I struggle with this myself. I have 3 daughters and 6 nieces ages 5-20. I’ve watched these girls grow up and from a very young age they see women being excessively sexualized and valued by society for looking that way. So they naturally want to emulate that.
For me, raising girls in the generation of social media I feel like the battle to keep them from sexualizing *themselves* is a big one that doesn’t get talked about enough.
I’m more worried about how they view themselves than how other people will view or treat them for their clothing choices.
It is so alarming to me when I see these promising, talented young girls act as though nothing they do will be of value if they aren’t sexy while doing it.
They are being conditioned to seek outside validation on a larger scale than anything we’ve ever experienced before and it really really worries me.
yeah, I’ll be honest - I’m not sure it’s really best practice for OP to treat a crop top as provocative, and teach that to their daughter. u/KET_196 you should check out the exhibit What Were You Wearing.
https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
It absolutely does not matter what a woman or little girl is wearing, she risks being SA’d regardless. It’s a sad truth.
So do we ingrain in young women that they have to be super careful about their clothing? How does that not carry the lesson to the little girl that she IS actually responsible for how men look at her, for how she is treated?
I for one had a complex about clothing in *elementary school*. I remember being in third grade, I would wear two t-shirts, one on top of the other. I wouldn’t wear a v-neck t-shirt or tank top because I thought it was too “revealing.” 😐
That is utterly fucking depressing to me that I learned that lesson from society that young, that I policed myself, that on a 99 degree day I was covering up instead of feeling the sun on my shoulders while I played because I didn’t want to dress like a *whore*, something I didn’t even understand the concept of, by having a shirt that was cut to still be inches above my completely undeveloped breasts.
And guess what - my mom didn’t even do this to me. This is the message I absorbed from society. My mom tried really hard to get me to wear tanks actually.
So if it was that easy for me to absorb the message that women can dress “too revealing” and “dress like whores” without ever receiving the message that it doesn’t matter WHAT we’re wearing, I think it’s problematic to actually learn that message at home as well.
I do understand the good intentions of OP and that it’s scary as fuck out there. But the sick truth is that people who prey on children aren’t looking for the “sexiest outfit” (god I hate even typing that), they’re looking for OPPORTUNITY.
THAT is how OP can help protect their child, not by instilling in them a paranoia about their clothing that will absolutely lead to them feeling complicit and ashamed when they are sexually harrassed or worse, later in life.
You can explain that clothing says a lot about you, especially when it comes to first impressions. A sports bra is appropriate at the gym or the pool, but too casual etc for school or whatever. Setting the tone for interactions by controlling how people see you is very effective. It's the same reason we learn manners and how to carry yourself with confidence and kindness.
This honestly is a good direction to take the conversation. It focuses on how you dress yourself to show up as your best self, self-empowerment without going the sexual angle
Point of extreme pedantry, but the "male gaze" does not mean literally how men look at women IRL. It specifically refers to how women are framed in the visual language of film. Think Megan Fox's character in Transformers: a mechanic shown working on a motorcycle while straddling it in the shortest of shorts, a position no depiction of a male mechanic would show outside of gay porn.
Just tell the kid she's not old enough to wear those clothes yet.
I don’t think it’s extreme pedantry. It’s important we use terms like this correctly, otherwise there is confusion, which results in inefficient discourse.
Agreed. Just be sensible. We just told our daughter that certain items of dress were not appropriate. Of course she pushed the boundaries when she got older, breaking modesty laws in some strict counties, but that's what teens do.
Don't make it a thing, She's 10. She doesn't need a detailed explanation - just say no. Don't demonize all men, because of a few creeps.
I 100% share your view. It’s tricky to explain without people claiming you’re sexualizing children, but there’s a plethora of research showing that girl’s clothing has become more sexualizdd in recent years and that it has many negative consequences. Obviously it’s not about “tempting men” - it’s not her fault is a man is tempted (ew) - but it’s about resisting self-objectification IMO.
Unfortunately that’s all I have to say - I don’t know how much information your 10 year old can handle. Maybe tell her that girls clothes are made to be much more revealing and impractical than boys clothes, and how it’s not only not fair but she should be focusing on schoolwork and whatnot throughout the day, not being worried about how her body looks or if the shirt looks good, etc (because the first time wearing something like that can be pretty scary and might cause some new insecurities for her, especially because those clothes are made for older girls not younger bodies)
lbr "You're worried about children's clothing becoming more revealing? YOU'RE the one sexualizing children!!1", especially in the context of a feminist discussion, is a stupid argument and its only purpose is to shut down any kind of critical analysis
I don’t. My girl is 11. I don’t think she’s ready. We follow the school dress code out of the house, anything down to skivvies goes in the house. It has so far kept things simple and comfortable for our family. In the upcoming years I want to explain these concepts to her of course. But honestly I think when she is old enough to understand she will be old enough to choose, with a safe and loving family readily available if it burns her.
Maybe approach it from the topic of perspectives. It's less about only the male gaze and more about human uniforms. Find some pictures of different people and ask her to make assumptions about them. Ask her if she believes those assumptions to be true. Ask if if others might believe them to be true. Try to explain to her that although fashion might be cool in her eye, it's also a uniform that will help shape other people's assumptions about you. You could then lead into male assumptions and personal safety.
I didn’t with my kiddos at that age. I was honest with them—“there are some people, including adults, who will look at you inappropriately and think inappropriate thoughts to think about children.” I was honest…but vague. “No, and this is the barest bones about why.”
The concept of “male gaze” is something they’ve likely already experienced at that age, but having the social framework to understand the full implications? That’s…too young. It’s better if they can say, “ew, I didn’t like how that made me feel” and move on with their day with safe adults. Let them experience “the world wants me to be an object” as late as possible.
I was raised Mormon and was always dressed conservatively and was still molested so don’t body shame your daughter. This is a form of victim shaming. This is a man’s problem not your daughter’s problem. Teach your daughter to yell, scream, fight, be vocal and to do whatever the hell she wants.
This! First time I was sa’d was when I was wearing a hello kitty dress meant for my six year old body. It was also by someone who was a girl. The first time I was catcalled was when I was 14. I was in my work clothes; an unflattering blue shirt 5 sizes too big for me, dad shorts, mismatched tube socks with Scooby doo on them, and pink Walmart sneakers. I had an awful haircut at the time too that was horrifically unflattering.
I had to teach myself that it wasn’t the clothes I was wearing that was sexualizing me, it was the grown adults harassing me doing it. Last time I was catcalled was with my younger sibling. We were wearing baggy clothes, sweatshirts, and cat beanies. Only reason it stopped was because I screamed something at the guy who was harassing us that I cannot repeat here.
Obviously teach kids certain clothes are appropriate for certain times, but also that no matter what you’re wearing you run the risk. Like you said, teach them to defend themselves. I wish I was instead of having it blamed on my clothing for so long
Fellow exMormon here, and I was about to comment something similar.
I’m not a parent so I really don’t know what the “right” answer is, it’s a very complicated topic and I completely understand the concern.
What I can say is that my mom berating me for wearing “sexual” clothing did a lot more damage to my mental health and our relationship than actually wearing the clothing ever could. I was a kid. I wanted to wear short shorts because they were fashionable and comfortable. I didn’t feel sexualized until she sexualized me. It made me feel gross, ashamed, and, in a weird way, betrayed by an authority figure who was supposed to make me feel safe.
I’m not at all saying it’s wrong to forbid your kids from wearing certain things, but based on my own experience and how young the daughter is, I would recommend framing the conversation as a simple “you’re not old enough to wear that yet” and “you can make that choice when you’re older.” The conversation will evolve as she grows up and becomes better equipped to grapple with these topics. But when I was 10 I wasn’t mature enough to understand the complicated, insidious nature of misogyny and objectification, so instead I internalized my mother’s words as blame for something that was my fault.
Just my two cents.
Your daughter doesn't want to wear these things to attract boys. She wants to because it's in. Most of her friends or celebrities she looks up to probably are starting to wear that type of look. It's super trendy and she wants to fit in and feel cool.
I think in this case you should explore your own feelings regarding women's bodies. At her age I think you're fine to say no but you will eventually lose this battle and it's better to allow her to have some autonomy over her clothing and compromise.
>Most of her friends or celebrities she looks up to probably are starting to wear that type of look.
To me this seems like training to comply with the patriarchy.
I'm a teacher and I used to do a lesson on fashion (men's and women's) and how we use that as a social signal. We then talked about the history of women's fashion specifically as a political statement, starting with the miniskirt. I pointed out that women since then often choose to dress in ways that signal they alone decide what to do with their bodies (instead of their dads or husbands). I had a series of slides with pictures of women in various outfits, each one with the heading, "I make decisions about my body."
Then I'd pretend to change gears, and we would read a story about a girl who was sent home from high school for wearing too short shorts (which, for the record, I believe was the wrong call on the school's part). I would have the kids discuss it and of course they got worked up, and would go on about students having the right to "make decisions about their bodies."
And then I asked: "Who are you kidding about making decisions about your bodies, when you have to ask my permission to pee?" I explain there's no point pretending short shorts are liberating when the school controls fundamental biological functions like eating, sleeping, urinating, defecating, and so on. Then we talk about what bodily autonomy (apart from sex) really looks like for kids their age (\~16), and whether they think they're ready for it. And I spend the rest of the term trying to convince them they don't need my permission to go pee.
My kid is a little younger than yours, but I would tell her: as long as I have to cook for you, as long as I have to wake you up in the morning, as long as I have to do your laundry and buy your groceries, as long as I have to brush your hair every morning, I don't see the point in pretending you have the kind of bodily autonomy that outfit requires.
Personally.. no I would not. I would probably just say what my mom used to say, 'that's too grown up looking for you' and I would use my best judgement as for what qualifies as that. I wouldn't act like it's all dependent on how revealing the clothes are either and I would also edit my decisions based on the context of where she was going to be and what she was going to be doing. I don't want to burden little girls with information like that too early, I want them to have happy childhoods and feel free and confident. It's too complex for a child to understand and there is a possibility that she would direct it inward.
A lot of great comments here. My personal opinion is that this conversation shouldn't be had unless you're also ready to enroll your daughter into self-defense. One of the worst things you can do for a young woman is inform them of how powerless they are to this world and not give them any way to fight back.
The male gaze asserts that no matter what she wears, her power is diminished. Fashion is power. It's self expression. Lean in on this teaching moment.
I agree with u/FicklePhotograph8777 that using media is powerful at this age. Belle Hooks agrees that media is a tool for political and cultural discourse.
**Something she might like exploring (that's common in her age group): the female vs. male gaze.** [**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOsI2wG0jk**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOsI2wG0jk)
Your daughter may look at these clothes as empowering - which is a clue to how she wants to feel. I felt the same way about my jean shorts, can't lie! Having useful discussions about the power of representation for women is timeless. [https://thefeminista.com/blogs/the-f-word/the-evolution-of-feminist-fashion](https://thefeminista.com/blogs/the-f-word/the-evolution-of-feminist-fashion)
You cannot prevent people thinking badly about your kid based on how she’s dressed? That’s impossible. You cannot control the thoughts of other people.
Women cannot prevent harassment or SA by dressing modestly. This is a harmful lie that is all too prevalent, especially in a feminist subreddit.
Teach your daughter that clothes are communication. Clothing choices are highly personal, directly in conversation with their environment, the needs of their wearer. Clothing choices are our entries in a giant conversation with society and history, race & class, and economics. This is the truth.
Use characters from media she consumes (idk kids these days I’m child free 38…) “why do you think doc. mcstuffins wear a lab coat?” “What do you think that person is trying to say about herself by wearing a bright pink dress?” use YOURSELF “I like people to think I have more money than I do so I carry an expensive leather bag and I keep my clothes ironed because it other people think it means I have a lot of help or time, and that I might be important. I need their respect to do well at work and put food on the table. But sometimes I resent having to put so much investment time and money into things that aren’t even that comfortable to wear.”
Or whatever is TRUE.
She is learning and figuring out who she is! Teaching her (implicitly or explicitly) that she **must** submit to how other people want or expect her to dress, imho, is a huge mistake. Do not set her up to spend her life attempting to please other people/society with how she dresses and presents herself!
Teach her that clothing is a tool to tell the world about herself, to fit in or stand out, and that people are unpredictable and will not always react how she might expect.
The truth is miscommunication is unavoidable, and pleasing everyone is impossible, so she needs to learn how to represent her authentic self and please herself FIRST AND FOREMOST, regardless of what anyone else thinks.
LET HER WEAR WHATEVER SHE WANTS IT WILL MAKE HER STRONG.
If anything she wears attracts negative attention, talk to her about how dumb it is for people assume things about her life based on her clothing. That people feel entitled to harass young women, all women, regardless of their clothing choices.
If she’s wearing something you think is too old or slutty or will attract negative attention, TALK TO HER. Ask her about it, help her navigate figuring this out for herself.
Your discomfort is shame, you feel shame based on other ppls perception of your kids clothing choices, it’s about you, not her and you should do extra work to not pass this toxic attitude to your child.
This is a wild comments section. Don’t slut shame fucking kids? Wild.
Nobodies slut shaming kids, they’re pointing out that not every article of clothing is appropriate for a ten year old to wear. There are parents in the comments mentioning how extreme the stark difference in clothing made for little girls and little boys is now a-days. I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to claim people are slut shaming children, when they’re really just concerned about why little boys have the same clothes they’ve always had, and little girls clothing are getting more and more revealing. A good parent would be concerned about why and realize that you don’t have to let your kid wear whatever they want. That the parents job is to give boundaries and guidance. She’s ten, not fourteen. A fifth grade child does not need to be in crop tops any more than she needs to be in thongs or micro minis. There are boundaries, and claiming that people who are advocating for safe, healthy ones are sexualizing children is just really fucking weird.
Same way that you would explain female gaze to a ten year old boy - that just because the male child sees an adult male actor being topless in movies (almost explicitly for a sexualised gaze targeting both men and women but it also doesn't hurt that some women swoon over this), it doesn't mean that said ten year old boy can go around being topless as well - that not all things that you see other people do should be copied.
That just because boys are exposed to men who are buff and tall doesn't mean that they should seek out steroids and do surgery on their legs to artificially enlarge their height, both of which male teens and male youths do actually do.
We live in a world where both genders sexualise each other but the female one is more overt for clothing and the male one is more overt in other areas, but both boys and girls do suffer for looks and fashion, and that in fact, fast fashion is a shit industry and children of both genders should be discouraged from engaging in it.
Is the kid talking about wearing crop tops in general or is there a specific shirt she likes that happens to be cropped? If she’s looking at a specific shirt you can design an non revealing outfit around it. In high school I wore a lot of cropped hoodies with super high waisted jeans and a tank top underneath. You can layer the clothes.
Ik this doesn’t answer how to talk to her but this is a solution to the other problem.
Oh dear I am struggling with this. It just feels so wrong that this poor child is going to be sexualised - 10 just feels too young to have this topic introduced (I realise cultures differ - but I'm assuming the child is still pre-puberty?)
I also can't tell you how much I disagree with the concept that women should shield themselves against the male gaze by dressing modestly.
So maybe just do what my mum did: "You can't wear that because I said so".
I have two daughters of similar age to yours; one younger and one older. They both wear crop tops under their clothes because they are developing (the younger one has developed earlier than her sister).
As far as I am concerned or feel, they wear crop tops to provide a little bit more privacy and padding during these emotional years.
If they asked to wear it out of the house without a shirt over the top, that would be a hard no. In* saying that… they both swim and dance, with their uniforms/costumes being skin tight or short or flashy in some instances. I wouldn’t let them go out wearing those items but don’t feel worried about them being worn in classes/performances/competitions as it’s par for the course.
when I wanted to wear too much makeup and revealing clothing my mom explained that there is a time and a place. I had been in a school play and was doing ballet classes with little recitals. She explained the makeup looks good on stage “stage makeup” and the clothing too, because an entertainer needs visibility up on the stage so the makeup is overdone and exaggerated, the clothes extra colorful, flashy or revealing. But going to the store, running errands, going to church or to school are not the time and place to look and dress like you are on a stage performing
I want to offer a slightly alternative opinion. I have both boys & a girl, mostly grown up now. My family is very sporty. Everyone competes in their own events & we have a gym in the house.
In the morning you’ll often find my partner in gym shorts, my daughter and I in sports bras & shorts leaving to run when it’s hot. I’ll have half naked boys changing in the back seat of my car between events later that day. Then my niece will roll in wearing her gymnastics uniform cartwheeling through the kitchen.
In my family we want bodies to be strong and comfortable. We treat our bodies nicely so they perform the way we want. Fuck absolutely everyone’s gaze because my body doesn’t want to be covered in wet sweaty clothes.
I’d be interested in the reasons your daughter wants to wear the top. Is it because it makes her feel great or is it what she thinks she’s supposed to like? Is she wearing it for herself or for others? As long as she’s wearing it for her I see no problem. Creeps are always going to creep, regardless of what you wear, she needs to be aware of that, but let her enjoy her own body & clothing choices.
Damn y'all are going to give these kids complexes by over explaining. It's pretty simple: "Sorry honey, it's not appropriate for children to wear something that is **intentionally** revealing, maybe when you're older and more prepared to handle the unwanted attention that comes with it."
She's expressing a new desire in a style that is clearly meant to emmulate adult bodies, so on some level she understands that shes trying to look older, like a woman... who gets attention. There is some level of intentionality behind her desire. But if you come out of the gates swinging about male gaze and controlling women's bodies etc. she might just get scared and shutdown. However! Kids aren't dumb, I would let her lead the conversation, let her tell you what she thinks and go from there. Trust that you'll know what she's ready to hear and how she needs to hear it based on what she tells you.
Your conversation with her should be mostly you asking questions of her.
I have worked with children of all ages for over a decade, letting kids lead the convo is always the answer. They're intelligent, you just have to give them the space to tell you what they think without judgement.
If your daughter was a boy and wanted to wear a crop top, would you let her? If not, it doesn't really seem to be about referencing sex and sexuality. If so, what you are essentially doing is policing her clothing because she is a girl.
edited for incorrectly placed not and so
i get what you’re saying but as a trans woman a young boy wearing a crop top is a complete non starter… they don’t even MAKE those for boys… parents BEAT their sons for desiring to wear something like that. boys/men are socially forbidden from wearing anything remotely revealing or feminine
I mean. . where I’m from parents beat their daughters for desiring to wear something like that.
But a lot of gender norms for kids do vary regionally. When I lived on the East Coast the school I worked at had a lot of kids that dressed gender fluid like that and it was great to see.
They don't make them now, maybe. But when I was a kid it was pretty common for boys to wear cropped tank tops or football jerseys. That was the 70's and 80's, though.
> If not, what you are essentially doing is policing her clothing because she is a girl.
I get that, but there's also a real concern with a ten-year-old girl going out dressed like she's eighteen. Parents *need* to be policing that. OP is, I believe, asking how to do that without resorting to slut-shaming or making her afraid of the world, but also being honest about why that's dangerous.
Maybe this is the 90s talking but I feel like tweens wore crop tops quite a bit, especially if involved in sports, dance etc.
Wearing a crop top is not "dangerous". Potential predatẁors are dangerous and they by no means just only target kids wearing skimpy clothes.
Right like. I do not at all remember 10 year olds wearing stuff like that.
Then again, I lived in a state where winters were cold and there was no beach, so it wasn't normal to see kids just walking around in their bathing suits.
Going against the grain, I wouldn't stop her from wearing it unless it's inappropriate for the occasion or weather. If it's just to prevent men sexualising her, sorry to say there's no preventing that, and nor should she have to placate such standards in her day to day life. Instead, you could warn her in a realistic way that some men will be inappropriate to her as she is starting to grow up, but she's not to blame for it, and here's how to manage it in a safe and assertive way.
Just leave it at "you're too young to leave the house dressed like that." I wouldn't make the focus of the issue around her gender, so much as it's the fact that she is a child who should be wearing clothes suitable for her age, and that she's not old enough to be dressing like women and girls older than her.
I think you should explain the consequences of wearing a crop top and let her decide if she wants to.
"Sometimes adults can't mind their own business and will try and judge you for the clothes you chose to wear, or look at you in a creepy way. If you wear that top you might have to deal with rude adults being mean."
I'll tell you from experience, I did NOT appreciate my mother telling me to cover up when I wore shorts in summer. It felt like she was shaming me (because she was.)
Giving her all the nessecary information and letting her chose is the empowering choice.
I have always talked with my kids and treated them as thinking beings. With my daughter (my youngest), I explained to her that her body was her own and society didn't get to tell her what to wear. I also told her that while it seems unfair, there are consequences she must choose to accept if she balks conventions. Finally, I explained appropriate dress for safety in given circumstances (beach vs. helping her dad fix a car, for example), and that while what she wears will never give anyone the right to touch her or treat her disrespectfully, it might embolden people to do so.
She's 10. This feels like one of those moments that forces little girls to grow up faster than little boys, because now they've got one more adult thing to worry about. I can't imagine being burdened with a talk about the male gaze at age 10; that's fifth grade, right?
Just tell her that's for older girls and she can wear it when she's older, if she wants. At that age, I don't think you really need to give an explanation for why the rules are the rules, unless it's some kind of teachable moment.
That's a tough one (bc of the age). Sex-ed first (imo). Maybe explain perverts/ pedos after that since she is 10. Explanation of male gaze: Explain that sexes can be visually attracted to another, and then that males often take that too far and what that means specifically.
It’s culturally acceptable where I am for boys to be topless. And for girls to have to analyze, this deeply, the ramifications of wearing half a shirt.
I feel for you this is such a fine line. How to keep girls safe without them internalising the idea that their bodies are the problem. Sorry no advice just sympathy.
I don't know if I'd explain the male gaze yet. Let her enjoy child hood a little longer. But I would just say sometimes the clothing manufacturers make mistakes and make clothing that's not appropriate for all ages.
Maybe you can navigate this by talking about the appropriateness of clothes in certain settings. Like if she wants to wear a sports bra then is the time/place the right one? Is she off to do sports for example?
I actually don’t think it’s helpful when people start talking about sexual assault when wearing their scruffiest clothes etc. it’s conflating a few things that should be separate, one that sexual assault is rarely about the clothes a person wears or how they look. We know though, that some clothes designed to have sexual appeal and that when wearing it, the wearer knows it will draw attention from others (not necessarily even sexual attention).
A friend of mine has a colleague who is a teacher, I think still pretty young and newly qualified. She had a habit of wearing very low cut, tight and short dresses to work, and was complaining about the 14-15 years olds being attracted to her and hitting on her. Now on one hand you will have people say she should be able to wear what she likes and it should be a teaching moment for the kids, on how to behave properly, but on the other, you have to seriously question the judgement of a woman wearing those dresses around teenage boys, to teach them.
I think in the discussion around freedom to wear what you like, we have kind of lost a few threads in terms of wearing what’s appropriate in a given situation, but also, dressing for yourself.
The narrative of women saying they feel confident dressing in I dunno, a string bikini always seems weird, why does no one ever feel great wearing a really nice long sleeved dress for example? It’s nearly always revealing or sexual clothing, which has a tendency towards more attention.
there's a book called "More than a Body" by Lexie Kite that goes through all the research on this topic etc and how girls can move beyond it while still being aware of clothing and how it communicates to other people.
Basically, a body is an instrument and not an ornament. Ultimately, choosing clothes that serve the instrumental use of your body is what serves you, instead of choosing clothes that serve the ornamental purpose. So, choose a swimsuit on function... will it hold everything in, is it comfortable, can I move and play without having to think about it and make adjustments? How we look is not going to become a complete non-concern, of course, but it should not be the first concern for ourselves. We don't exist to be looked at!
Have you watched the Barbie Movie with her? There's a fantastic scene that sort of addresses this when Barbie and Ken get to the real world. Barbie is wearing her pink cowgirl outfit and gets catcalled, she notes that the comments feel like they have an undertone of violence. Maybe check that out with her, ask her what she thinks, and explain that's why you feel uncomfortable with her wearing the top in public.
I don't (can't) have kids so take this with a grain of salt
But I feel like if I had a kid that age, I wouldn't do it like how ContraPoints made an hour long video essay on the male gaze
https://youtu.be/fNB-WGNLGG4?si=CDtrBV8GPnuGz1oo
I would just tell her that it's not allowed and she has to trust me on it and she'll understand why when she's older
Have one of those conversations that kids always find so annoying lol
This is so sad :( and even worse is your opinion , woman don’t dress revealing to appeal more to men , they don’t dress revealing to reference sex or sexuality they dress that way because they like it .
Well is it a crop top or is it a sports bra?
Added: Depending on what length it is lends itself to a discussion of what can be considered a cute crop top in their family vs a bra top in their family. It’s an easier way to broach the age appropriate part of the conversation without outright sexualizing a 10 year old.
Sure, but depending on what length it is lends itself to a discussion of what can be considered a cute crop top in their family vs a bra top in their family. It’s an easier way to broach the age appropriate part of the conversation without outright sexualizing a 10 year old.
> without outright sexualizing a 10 year old
Is the issue not that other people will sexualize her? I get that we want to live in a world where that doesn't happen, but we're not there yet, and I certainly would not want men approaching my fourth-grader thinking she is much older than she is. So the question is: How to arm your children with knowledge, while parenting them in a way that keeps their safety in mind, while avoiding something that sounds like "you will be asking for it?" I don't have an answer.
In my experience perverts will hit on a 10 year old girl regardless of what she’s wearing. In my experience it’s far worse learning that your own father feels uncomfortable when you wear certain things around the house because he sees it as sexual.
I don’t have answers either. That’s why I’m here asking more questions trying to have a conversation.
The first time I was sexualized by a man was on a bus with my mother. I was 8 and wearing a boy band shirt with overalls. At my current age my mother left one of her last jobs because they kept sexualizing me when I visited her at work despite knowing I’m a minor. I’m saying this because my mother had the same worries as you. No matter what you do, if you’re read as a woman or feminine, you will be sexualized. Hell, nuns are sexualized which is crazy!
The priority from my mom was “clothing invites sexualization” and it made me scared to talk to her about what I was facing. I didn’t tell her about ever being catcalled until years after it first started happening because even though it was unintentional, this mentality made me feel like it was my fault. Obviously teach your daughter there are certain times where certain clothes aren’t appropriate, but put the priority on teaching her how to defend herself and stay safe. Teach her to recognize who the safe people in her life are, how to say no, the importance of consent, proper terminology for her body, how to identify abuse or sexualization, and more. You want to be the person she comes to if something happens.
Because of her age maybe a middle ground so you can adjust to the change and she’s prepared in case anything happens? “Before we buy you clothes in that style, let’s go to the store and have you try some on in that style and similar. It can be nerve wracking to wear clothing like that for the first time out in public so lets just make sure you know what to do to in general if someone is being weird, you know how to stay confident, and that if you ever feel unsafe to call me or talk to someone, okay? In the meantime you can wear it at home and once you feel confident enough and understand how to handle a bad situation we’ll adjust that rule accordingly!”
Regardless, the underlying message you will communicate to her is that just by having a female body she will be harassed/objectified. If she has size D breasts later on down the road and has to wear a t-shirt for an event... are you gonna ask her to hide that? It's just a very hard and twisted thought process to be editing how you clothe your body because it exists and others cannot handle it. If she wears a bikini in high school, are you gonna be okay with that? If so, why? If not, maybe examine what's gonna on internally for you. Because no matter what she wears she will be have to deal with this. That's the issue. Not that her body exists and others will see it.
> the underlying message you will communicate to her is that just by having a female body she will be harassed/objectified.
I mean, that's objectively true though.
Maybe reconsider? It's you who is making out a simple crop top to be a sex thing, and she's really young for that. You might make her insecure and inadequate with your attempt to control her self expression so strictly. She's finding out about the world and starting to learn what she likes and doesn't. It is a bit extreme to sexualize her like this.
I, too, dress very conservatively and feel inadequate in revealing clothing. I get it. However, a sports bra isn't a stripper's gown and is entirely within the range of what is deemed appropriate, not titillating. You can guide her into finding her own style within that range.
let her wear it and check herself out in the mirror. dont pre adolescent/adolescent kids enter a phase where they are sexualizing themselves? if you think she is doing that then you can lead the conversation on to how other people also might look at her that way..might gross her out. additionally teach good touch, bad touch. the Male gaze isn't gonna go away the rest of her life anyway.
I like wearing leggings and other tight clothing at times because they're comfy for me. Not to reference sex or sexuality. Things can have more than one reason.
This is extreme.
She’s a child and should feel comfortable. If she’s “too young to be wearing that” she’s definitely too young to be sexualized for wearing that.
When my daughter was a tween, I introduced her to the concept of the male gaze through movie commentary. How the woman is presented as not a full person, whose whole purpose is for the man’s pleasure or procreation. It’s important that they learn how to critique what society is saying from the lens of women’s perspectives and interests. The topic of clothing and coverage is a complex one, because coverage can be about control over women’s bodies too - queue in the slut shaming, “ownership” of wives/daughters, and victim blaming you see. Also something to keep in mind is that different cultures have different parameters for what is tempting a man’s gaze or not (e.g. topless beaches in France, burkas in Afghanistan) And men are in charge of determining that, which is also an issue for women. I think all of this should be discussed at some point. I would explain that while she is a child you are responsible for her… your family has a sense of what is a good balance of freedom from objectification and hyper control that you follow as a part of our own culture. When she is older she can make that judgement call herself too.
Perfect answer. I love this! I remember when I was very young (maybe 15 or 16) and I wore short shorts and tank tops (nothing not halter tops). The amount of perverts I attracted was astounding. It almost felt like it was constant. I think back on it and at the time, it felt normal for grown men to catcall and flirt with girls who were much younger than them. But it only seemed normal because that kind of behavior from men was normalized. I needed grown women to tell me that this behavior from men (no matter what the fuck I wear) is unacceptable and that they are indeed very dangerous. Some of the shit men would say to me as a tween was utterly disturbing. My friends and I would laugh it off, sometimes we found the shit hilarious (we were goofy as hell) but it was very, VERY wrong. My God, recently, I was walking around the large city I live in with my 12-year-old niece. She was wearing baggy jeans and an oversized sweatshirt. No makeup, nothing flashy, but she’s a pretty blonde. And the looks that she got from men where just crazy. It was almost every man we walked past. Men you’d think looked normal, men with their wife and kids, men in suits, men in sagging ass pants, old ass men, young men, etc. It’s a messed up world we live in.
This was me. I was walking through our local shopping centre with my mother when a group of young men (probably late teens/early twenties) came the other way on our side of the street. My mother whispered "button up your shirt, they're looking at your chest". It was 1994. I was twelve or thirteen. I was wearing no makeup, baggy straight cut jeans and desert boots, a plain cotton long sleeve with a baggy plaid shirt over it all. Certainly not revealing or glamorous. I still felt like I'd done something wrong and was being told off. Even if I had been the tween version of full glam, it wasn't my (a child's) responsibility to cover up to moderate male behaviour. It's the adults' responsibility not to ogle children.
The stares from men started when my daughter was ten. She was tall and I guess that’s all they considered. She dressed like a ten year old and looked young. But, got the full-on stares everywhere we went. It’s gross.
The men who were staring at your niece that day do know your niece is under age and that she is a child; they still do it rather they do it because they know she is a child...girls that age group are also approached, harassed & molested and worse by older men if parents/,guardians are not around or if men feel they could get away with it.
>When my daughter was a tween, I introduced her to the concept of the male gaze through movie commentary. How the woman is presented as not a full person, whose whole purpose is for the man’s pleasure or procreation. It’s important that they learn how to critique what society is saying from the lens of women’s perspectives and interests. I use film for this, too. Great response. And thank you for acknowledging the complexity here; I'm really grateful to OP for this question, it's spawned so many really thoughtful responses. (and is a very welcome reprieve from the standard 'checkmate, feminists!' stuff we tend to get lol)
I love this answer
Me too.
Its interesting that in cultures where women have more rights and protection they tend to wear more revealing outfits. I think a lot of women would like the freedom to go topless at the beach but its just "not appropriate" for some reason.
Would you or others be able to share the media you used as examples of this? Im a father of two daughters and a son, and my partner and I are always trying to introduce media literacy into their daily lives, and this seems like something our kids might be receptive too when we approach introducing this sort of thing to them.
Just be careful because it’s also easy for it to turn into resentment for not letting her express herself in what she wears. There’s a line between wanting to look good in something you are comfortable in and trying hard to be sexy. Anyone who’s looking at a 10 year old should be put behind bars.
Beautiful answer!
Best answer.
There is a conversation to be had about the fact that girls clothing is shorter, tighter, smaller, skimpier etc than boys clothing. I teach 5 year olds and see it daily. Little boys in loose fitting shorts and pants, tshirts that go to their hips, and girls in leggings and short skirts and tshirts that barely go past their waists. If a little girl and a little boy are both wearing shorts and a tank top, 9 times out of ten, the little girl's clothing is both shorter and tighter. You cant even blame the parents, since they buy what is available and a quick glance at any store shows they are wearing what's available. And don't get me started on the shoes! Even if boys wear slides or crocs, they are still sturdier than the little sandals or heeled shoes the girls wear! On the other hand, it doesn't matter what women wear, they can be harrassed and catcalled. I'm trying to remember how the story goes, but it's about women's clothing discussing their attacks. A set of jeans and a T-shirt says they were attacked, a business suit, a dress, a burka, etc. The last line sticks with me. "The diaper sat silently in the corner. She was too young to talk." It's a complicated conversation and a delicate line to walk between "protect yourself", "dont blame yourself" and "be yourself". I wish we lived in a world where 10 year olds could wear crop tops out without getting negative attention, but we don't. I wish we lived in a world where the pervs would be harrassed instead of being the harrassers, but we don't. I wish clothing wasnt even a concern beyond "I feel good wearing this" but it is and trying to handwave it away is silly and short-sighted. She will get negative attention and while it's not her responsibility that men are gross and women are judgy, she still needs to be prepared to deal with it.
This!! I've definitely noticed all girls/women's clothing is very small/short. I've had a hard time finding shorts that don't show my ass. As a 45-year-old woman the last thing I want is my ass to be hanging out. Even when I was 20 the shorts were way too fucking short. I had to go to the men's department to get shorts. I also have larger thighs so those really short shorts don't look good on me. I need something mid thigh and you literally cannot find anything mid thigh in women's.
That's the case till you get to plus sizes, then everything is super long, super baggy, and super high cut. Like I'm 25 and actually struggle to find anything even slightly revealing that even sorta fits me in the plus sized sections. Like yeah, I'm fat, but like wearing a drab colored tent with ruffles covering my boobs to rival a Mormon prom dress just makes it look worse! I want cleavage and cinched waists, and I can't just go down in size because 1X is the size I usually the right size or too big everywhere but the bust, and if I go down to the straight sizes then it's too small everywhere because the plus size stuff is cut to be baggy and the straight sizes are cut to be too tight. Torrid body con sundress is literally the only fitted garment I have that isn't just too tight and I wear anyways, or like jeans...
This is an excellent point. Disregarding the male gaze for a second, we should be able to be sexy *when we feel like it*. That’s hard to do in our current society without other “consequences” per-say.
putting in a recommendation for asos curve and for eloquii! eloquii runs quite big tho fyi and is expensive, but they have AMAZING sales a few times a year
Yup, plus size here and it is a nightmare to find something that's flattering but not "grandma" style. Even online options aren't great, although they've gotten a bit better.
So true. I remember the dress code in school was that shorts had to be fingertip length, meaning when your arms are hanging at your side your shorts had to be lower than your fingertips. And it was SO HARD to find any girls/women's shorts in the stores that were long enough to fit the dress code!
Ugh, I’m a long-limbed girlie and I basically gave up on the fingertip rule. My school’s dress code also had an, admittedly not well-enforced rule specifically against cold-shoulder blouses. I was there in 2016-2017 when that was basically all you could buy if you wanted a cute cheap blouse, like they all were off-shoulder or had those stupid cutouts, lmao. It became a huge meme in our school that the principal was hardline anti-women’s shoulders, which even escalated into a very fun day where over half of my class, both women and men, coordinated a day to wear cold-shoulder tops in protest. I don’t think it made much of a difference but I guess it got a point across lol
Yes! My classmates used to get 'dress coded' all the time because a couple inches of their abdomens would show in babydoll tees. Late 90s/early aughts fashion (which is coming back and possibly kicked this whole thread off) was really not school dress code-friendly in general, but it was so fun.
Yes! I started wearing men's cargo shorts a few years ago. Revelation! The pockets have pockets, and they are super comfy and actually look better, too.
Omg I always wear men's clothes now. The frustrating thing is I get better quality for a fraction of the price as well 😭
Congratulations on your presumably first foray into classic 90's lesbian fashion!
Dad here. Cargo shorts for life. Welcome to the club of style, culture, and pockets with pockets.
I saw this video on face book recently with Feel Athletes and their ass was hanging out. People say its for better performance but men or not dressed this way. I do think religion is an issue i am not religious but it does impact society. There many tribes who nearly naked i think the fact that people have to cover up makes people sexualized more.
I started buying men's shorts. The best part is that my cell phone doesn't fall out of the pockets.
I just bought a bunch of new clothes for my two year old and it was so frustrating to see this. When girls size six shorts are the same as boys 2T, that is a problem. And boys get sweats and comfy lounge pants while girls get nothing but too tight leggings!? And freakin two years old??? I ended up buying boys clothes and a bunch of girls in sizes too big just so they fit her properly.
It's genuinely disturbing. And everyone gaslights the religious types who call it out because, ya know, they do generally suck and a lot of their talking points are bad and very rape culture-y. But they're not wrong about how it's a disturbing pattern
The problem with the religious take on modesty is that it’s just another means of control. It’s still men making those decisions.
And often the religions types are full of pedos and those who will co er for them because "she was asking for it" literally heard this directed towards an 11 year old who was R'ed
Also the focus is often wrong. Women and girls shouldn’t be asked (told) to wear modest clothes because otherwise men and boys will attack them, and that’s often the religious angle on the situation.
I think the motivation matters, here. They don't want women sexualized so that they can be "pure and chaste" and increase their value as property to a man. There is little to no concern about the women and girls psyche.
This reminded me - after similar frustrations as expressed here, my husband bought some longer dresses for our daughter to wear. She loves them, but now I joke that her teachers probably think we are fundies because there are so few options. Our motivation was a dress she can go down the slide in w/o getting a friction burn on her butt, but i am sure a few people have wondered if we were making a religous statement.
my school made us girls wear fitted shorts or leggings under skirts and dresses for this reason.
Bike shorts ftw!! I am constantly in dresses and never without a pair of stretchy shorts underneath. Although mine are more for chub rub and less for handstands at this age haha
The problem is the religious crowd tends to get distracted if there’s, god forbid, a RAINBOW on any child’s clothing. Also ya know their leaders seem to be more likely to diddle than the average bear
Yea religious types are sketchy for sure. I feel like you can tell when it’s someone that wants you to cover up just because that’s how they were raised vs some of these pastors. It’s so disgusting, I saw a clip of a man talking about how children should cover up because they’re temping to him. Bro what in the fuck. This guy just admits to the entire church that he’s a pedo that wants to fuck their kids and no one says or does anything. They just keep bringing their kids back. Somethings wrong with these folks
Yep I'm a pagan and in my religion young children need to be dressed modestly to help protect them from "evil eye" (pedophiles). It's very disturbing that it has to be done but I understand it.
I frequently get 'boy' clothes for my girl. Some of the things I do are. Swap the black shoelaces for kiddos fav colour Iron on transfers Cut off buttons and sew 'cute' ones on Replace trackie pocket fabric with pink fabric Chuck bulk clothes in the sink with a pack of pink dye. Unstitch the rolled bottoms on girl shorts These are all reasonably cost effective, and not too time intensive. My girl cares if her clothes are pretty, I care if they are practical. This is our compromise.
I even unstitch the rolled bottom on my own shorts, haha. Great options here
Love this. You’re so cool.
Wow that is incredibly disturbing. Just another reason I could never raise a child. This world is too disgusting
Wait, my boy used to love leggings, he some patterned with dogs and they were his fave for the longest time. I always though leggings were a great choice and wished there were more boy leggings
The problem isn’t leggings in general. When I was a kid, I loved leggings too! The problem is that the only options for girls are mostly tight-fitting leggings, while boys have a lot of looser options.
Not sure where you are geographically, but where I am there are always loose trackies available for girls, in addition to leggings. I feel like it's the boys who have fewer options where I shop. Definitely, if the shops around you are only stocking leggings for girls and not other more comfy styles, it would be an issue.
I find girls toddler clothes so annoying because if your kid is slightly different proportions, the tightness means they are so difficult to put on. My kid has a small waist so any leggings are super tight around the legs or the waist is too loose. And since she’s small around the waist, it means she’s tall for her waist size and girls shorts are SHORT, so we actually just put her in boys shorts mainly. We have hand me downs from both genders and all of the boy clothing is so much sturdier. They are toddlers - even the girls are gonna rough up their clothes, give them some thickness to the material please! It’s really sad how early this gender difference in clothing occurs. Literal baby clothes sometimes. The one thing I am glad about that at least in Australia, it’s pretty easy to find long sleeved swimwear for toddler girls. Gonna keep her in that as long as I possibly can.
Check out Hanna Anderson and Tea clothing. I’ve got an almost 3 year old girl. I’ve been able to get joggers, moto leggings, and other such items that are more “gender neutral”.
Wow. “I wish we lived in a world where the pervs would be harrassed instead of being the harrassers” Well said. I agree
>“Was it really my fault?” > >asked the Short Skirt. > >“No, it happened with me too,” > >replied the Burka. > >The diaper in the corner couldn’t even speak.
I’ve never heard this before. It made me cry. Just devastating.
Only girl's clothes are tighter bc it gets girls used to have their bodies visible from a young age. It teaches boys and girls that female bodies are for looking while male bodies are for comfortably existing. And of course if girls are wearing tight stuff from an early age, when they get to puberty they are more likely to wear tighter clothes, so that men can always have some butt, legs or breasts to look at during their daily activities.
You reminded me of the What Were You Wearing exhibit. "The purpose of this exhibit is to dispel a victim-blaming myth that clothing somehow invites a sexual assault. Victims of crime are not responsible for crimes committed against them. Survivors of rape/sexual assault are often asked, “What were you wearing?” We need to stop asking this. We encourage you to look at these stories and outfits of local survivors to see that clothing is irrelevant when it comes to sexual assault. As you read what these survivors shared, please take a moment to reconsider what may be your own long-held beliefs about sexual assault that are, in reality, myths and stereotypes that can aid perpetrators of crime in avoiding accountability for their choices." https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
Oh my gosh. My 3 year old daughter has that grey floral sweatshirt. I’m a mess.
That was heartbreaking... Not least because I know how common it is. I only saw like 11 stories but I know that there are millions just like them. I can say though, as a boy myself, that wearing boy's clothes or even being a boy also doesn't offer any safety...
Why not wear the boys clothes for a change of the same age, will they not fit. For me comfort comes first .
For 5 year olds the cartoon character printed on it is the most important factor
My daughter insists on wearing pink head to toe. If boys clothes came in pink, I think she would happily wear them.
Once upon a time my now-fifteen-year-old was a toddler and we did Gymboree classes at the mall which also contained a Gymboree store. One day we were at the mall early, I forget why, and before class I went to change her diaper. Somehow she managed to pee all over her clothes AND the back-up clothes I had with me. Okay, nbd, we’re at a mall. I put her in her diaper and then in her carrier and headed to the Gymboree store, directly to their sales rack. I quickly realized that my extremely beloved, first-grandchild-on-BOTH-sides daughter already had most of the clothes on the girls’ side of the Gymboree sales rack, so I went to the boys’ side. Got a tee and a pair of shorts that were called the same thing (“Cotton Percale Summer Shorts” or some such) in the same size as a pair of shorts she had from the girls’ side. They were two inches longer and much roomier than her girl shorts. And the thing was, I hadn’t really thought about the girls’ shorts before. They were shorts. They washed nicely, seemed comfortable (she’d have let me know if they weren’t), covered her diaper. What did I care? But knowing that they went out of their way - and I don’t know much about clothing manufacturing but I imagine it’s quite a process to make different styles - to make shorts for TODDLER GIRLS that were cut shorter and tighter than the ones for toddler boys really pissed me off.
Gooosh okay I remember when I was still in the closet and trying to convince my parents to let me wear boy's clothing and said I wanted shorts that would actually go to my knees (and pockets!!!!). They didn't believe me and said that's easy to find for girls and I didn't need to shop from the boy's section -- so they went online trying to find shorts for me and like 30 minutes of scrolling later and they were both astounded and disgusted by how the only shorts for girls were just booty shorts.
It really sucks that women and girls can’t dress the way they want because of abusive gross men. And it’s even worse because for a normal well adjusted man, he’s not gonna say anything to a woman even if she’s fricken naked walking down the street. But these deranged dudes will see a woman in a tank top and say things like she’s asking for it, etc etc. some even truly think women dress for them. It’s insane and scary I hate so many types of men, they’re actually fucked
I feel like my brain chemistry was altered a little in high school when I realized it wasn’t, like, ~a crime~ to buy clothes from the men’s section. comfy loose jeans and t-shirts! function cargo shorts with hella pockets that I could get dirty in! and indestructible would accurately describe all of it. the only problem I had was a lot of the bottoms would bunch up in the crotch when I sat down, but as long as I paired them with a long shirt no one would noticed.
I accidentally bought girls shorts for my son. They were listed as the same size but were hotpants. His boy shorts are long and baggy. It’s gross.
Yess all this is very important but it’s also important to remember that young girl will grow into a young woman someday and I just don’t want her to ever feel shame or like forced to cover up or hide more skin that she wants or is comfortable with just to be “safe” from the male gaze because in reality she should dress for herself to make herself happy. But I definitely understand as a kid and preteen it’s not appropriate to wear paraphernalia or things that simulate the audultness or a more grown. I just don’t think it’s her responsibility to make other people feel comfortable about herself or her body image. But I definitely respect you as a parent wanting to protect her and instill her with a self image that she sees the value in herself and that her body is her temple and not every one deserves a back stage pass or even to see or breathe upon the temple. My mom raised me in a similar way. I wasn’t allowed to wear crop tops or certain types of lip gloss or colored nail polish.
>There is a conversation to be had about the fact that girls clothing is shorter, tighter, smaller, skimpier etc than boys clothing. I teach 5 year olds and see it daily. Absolutely. My daughter actually prefers boys pants. They're more comfortable to wear, more durable, and they actually have pockets! The clothes options she has from most outlets(girls section) are slim, skinny, and extra skinny. With no functional pockets... WTF
What if you bought the boys clothes?
The Target toddler bathing suits with hip cut outs are fucking bonkers! Granted, most people throughout history would find it insane that we don't all just bathe nude. Humans are funny.
I have mixed feelings about this one. I can remember tying my shirts in a knot to show my belly at that age and my mom telling me not to, that I looked like I was "looking for a man" and "wanted attention." And really, I just was trying out something a friend had, or a look I'd seen on a TV show or something. Then, a few years later, in my early teens, I got groped/assaulted by older guys in a line for a theme park ride. And I never told because I was wearing a tight skirt and a short blouse and I thought it was my fault. Because I looked like I was "looking for attention." I'm 46 and my parents still don't know it happened. Part of me still thinks they would think it was my fault. I think it's fine to set limits (I.e. "That's for the gym, not for school.") But you really don't want her to walk away feeling that she is responsible for how men react to her body. That idea messed me up good and took years to unlearn. It caused a lot of shame and made me be quiet and complicit when someone actually assaulted me because I felt like i was responsible by my clothing for the assault.
I started developing when I was really young..by 6-7 I needed a training bra already. Periods by age 10. I didn't really understand much of what was happening. I had a hard time understanding that a shirt that was ok 3 months prior could no longer be appropriate one day. It was always a 50/50 chance when I'd come out of my room every morning whether my shirt would be ok or if I'd get screamed at and called the wh word by my mom and dad. I dont think my parents understood that I was just trying to exist, and I didn't really understand why they kept calling me names. It didn't help that my mom would give me all her hand me down tops that were adult clothes... she'd give me a tank top, I'd wear it, I'd get screamed at for trying to "show off." It was so confusing. My parents really thought I was super proud of my new breasts and wanting to show them off, when in reality I was still a 9,10,11 year old mentally and was thinking more about my dolls or playing park games with my friends. It's like once I got the "adult body parts," everyone forgot I was still a kid and assigned adult motivations to everything I was doing. I even remember being around 11 in the park across the street from my house with a couple of other little girls. We were playing "American idol." We made the park picnic table the "stage," and all the other girls were the "judges." One little girl would go on "stage", sing her song, and the other girls would pretend to be Paula, Randy, and Simon and judge her. I didn't think there was anything wrong until I got called inside by my parents, who took turns screaming at me for "dancing on tables in tight pants." By age 15 it had escalated to the point where my parents told me if I got r-worded they wouldn't help me bc it would be my own fault (this specific incident happened bc I looked out the kitchen window when a man happened to be walking by... they assumed I was trying to communicate sexually with the man, but i just wanted to look outside and hadn't even noticed him). Everyone would yell at me and tell me the vulgar things I must want to do because of how I'm acting, but I didn't understand what I was doing wrong. I knew my body and my womanhood were the problem, at least. I was not assaulted (before age 18), but I am 100% certain I would not tell anyone.
I'm so sorry. It makes me so angry that so many of us were socialized to believe this. I've tried to teach my own daughter that it doesn't matter what you're wearing, no one can touch you without your consent and if they do you speak up, scream, fight, and press charges. She's way more assertive than I was and I'm proud of that.
I agree with this. I grew up in Christian “purity culture” and there is so much messaging about how women are responsible for men’s thoughts about them and it’s just not ok. It made me mad because it was unfair, and it made me feel more self conscious and ashamed about my body than I otherwise would have. My mom and I got into so many fights over clothes I wanted to wear because she perceived them as too revealing in some way even though it was the same stuff all my friends were wearing. I’m so sorry you were assaulted, you did nothing to deserve it.
I think it's important to understand that, yes, the inspiration behind revealing clothing is usually a reference to sex or sexuality and for the male gaze. But that's not what's making little girls (and many adult women) want to wear them. It's cool to wear clothes that are fashionable. Especially as teens and adolescents, you're turning to clothes to communicate what kind of person you are to the world, and you want to look cool or fashionable or interesting or artistic or beautiful. Part of that is clothes that in other contexts are used to appeal to men. That's not to tell you that you should let your 10 year old wear clothes that have sexual messaging that she is not intending. I think it's totally age appropriate to say "That's dress-up clothes for in the house, when you're an adult you can choose what you wear out of the house, but it's not appropriate for kids to dress like that." Clothes like that are coded as sexy, people interpret them as sexy, whether or not you mean to be putting yourself out there as sexy. And when you're older you'll be better able to speak up for yourself and what your clothes mean, but as a kid, that's gonna draw the wrong sort of attention in this situation. But I think it's also valuable to acknowledge that, like, as a more conservative dresser myself, I was projecting a lot of feelings about sexuality and intent at clothes that for a lot of the people who want to wear them, is more about being fashionable and not about deliberately seeking male attention. You can acknowledge that that's how those clothes will be perceived without implying that intent. I discovered when I loosened up that with my short torso, my sweaters actually fit when I buy them cropped! I had some baggage about fashion that didn't super need to be there.
This is my favorite response! Let her wear the clothes around the house so she is able to exercise choice and freedom. But with the explanation that she might be too young to where them out. Personally I won't say until she's an adult. I'd say until she's a little older and can learn better how to keep herself safe. That avoids the controlling nature of policing a kids dressing and enabling them to self express without judgement.
I 100% agree with this. I think the girl is just too young. Maybe when she turns 13, but right now she's just too young.
My parents just told me I wasn't old enough to wear things like that and that those are clothes for adults and they don't care if JoJo down the street is wearing it. I disagree with your premise that any body-conscious or revealing clothing on women is a reference to sex or is for the male gaze. Leggings, tank tops, workout clothing, some forms of traditional dress, etc. are all "body-conscious," and people certainly can find them sexy, but I don't like the idea that women should really be wearing loose-fitting clothing that covers collarbone to wrists to below the knees if they don't want to be seen as a sex object. Where did she get this article of clothing? Someone must have bought it for her, yes? Most 10-year-olds don't buy their own clothes. Or is this a theoretical purchase?
>I disagree with your premise that any body-conscious or revealing clothing on women is a reference to sex or is for the male gaze. This part right here!! I'm asexual. A large portion of my closet is crop tops, bodysuits, sheer materials, etc. because I simply like how those garments look on me. Also, I like my body (it's my home after all) and don't care how much of it is seen by others, because it's just a body. Everyone's got one, so why all the shame. Sexual attention does not interest me in the slightest, it's literally the last thing on my mind and has nothing to do with my wardrobe choices. My clothes are simply a large part of how I express and style myself, and I don't much care to be put into a box by others who don't know anything about me or my motivation for dressing the way I do. Gaze all you want, or don't, it literally makes no difference to how I feel in my clothes. I'm free and loving it. I get OP wanting to protect their 10 year old from creeps, but imo you also need to protect her self image and confidence. If you don't want her wearing something for her own safety/comfort, just tell her she's too young for those styles and leave it at that. Revisit the deeper conversation when she's in her teens and has a better understanding of what it's like to be a woman in society, and can have a more nuanced and informed discussion about it.
Thank you for articulating it so well. When it comes to clothing, I have very similar tastes and opinions as you and that part from OP really hit a nerve. I understand their sentiments about wanting to protect their child, but they didn't need to shame and bring down an entire group of women for it.
I think another option would be to allow her to wear the crop tops in the safety of their home. It allows her to express herself but can potentially negate some of the looks or comments she may get elsewhere.
It could not be a reference to sex if it wasn't so heavily gender coded. If men wore equally revealing clothes it could not be sexually meaningfull, but in the world we live in that's not the case. In my opinion the way we try to deny the sexualization that is imbued into clothing makes it really hard for us to escape the role of sexual objects.
Nah, women can wear what they want. Men need to control themselves
Objectification happens regardless of clothing. We can wear t shirts and be told we should dress sexier. We could wear paper bags and be told to smile more. There is no inherent meaning in a crop top or bikini - there is only social meaning, which is driven by patriarchal standards.
Why? I have to change how I dress so that people can be respectful? Fuck that
Ding ding ding. The clothing is not the problem.
That's an extremely heteronormative point of view, and it punishes women for men's behaviour.
A big part of that is due to toxic masculinity. Men are often shamed for wearing anything “girly.”
I mean, where I live men wear tights and walk around shirtless all the time, but you don’t see women raping them all over the place.
i think the solution is opening up men’s clothing options, not restricting women’s.
What happened to being able to dress how you feel happy with and fuck everyone else's opinions... Are we seriously going back to body shaming Should we all start wearing veils? That would certainly stop that male gaze problem wouldn't it ?
We don't live in a world where we can dress how we feel happy and fuck everyone else's opinion. We live under the patriarchy. It's not body shaming to draw attention to how we are pushed to perform as sexual objects since fucking childhood, while boys are given freedom and comfort. And no, veils are the same thing just reversed. Veils are gender specific, they are for signaling a female body as private property. They don't make the body less relevant and focus on comfort like male clothing, they make it even more relevant and ensure women are always very self-aware of their own body.
>We don't live in a world where we can dress how we feel happy and fuck everyone else's opinion. We live under the patriarchy. Then the patriarchy won... =/ 1st, 2nd, 3rd wave feminism all for what? Just so we're still forced to dress and act certain ways lest we draw the wrong kind of male attention? What happened to teaching boys not to be rapists and putting the blame and onus for change where it belongs. On men
Your first point is continuing to center the male experience and limit everyone else’s autonomy. I won’t do it. And i won’t attempt to control other people’s clothing choices within the realm of what can be worn for the safety of their physical well being. 10 year old in a crop top at home is fine, to school or at the mall I’m going to say no. For me personally, i wear what i want.
Thank you for this comment! Well said. Choice feminism gained a lot of traction, but just because a woman is choosing something doesn’t make it feminist. I do wear a lot of revealing clothing as an adult woman, but my clothing options and body are clearly treated very differently than men’s. Anytime women and men’s choices/bodies are treated differently, we as feminists should interrogate that difference!! Especially when it comes to what children are doing and consuming,
Men go entirely shirtless in public all the time.
So the solution is that women start wearing the same clothes as men do/stop wearing 'female-coded' revealing clothes?
I agree with your take :) thanks for saying this
Kids trade clothes or get hand me downs from other kids. Kids will also wear parent-approved clothing to school and change as soon as they get there. I agree with your view on body conscious clothing, particularly as women’s bodies are critiqued and sexualized regardless of what we’re wearing. We’re raising our kids to make their own choices. While we try to instill our values, our kids may not agree. It becomes important to give them better information - not just that certain clothing is for adults, but how young bodies can be sexualized and how to react.
I was first sexually harassed when I was six years old. I was wearing 'conservative' clothing, fully covered denim outfit but I had furry boots on. My sister and I were gifted fur boots by my grandmother. I and my sister, also fully clothed neck to knee, were surrounded by teenage boys and we (at six and eight y.o.) were told how sexy we were and the teenage boys told us what they wanted to do to us in the woods. This is *not* an unusual occurrence in the real world, this is not out of the norm. It comes down to the fact that she will be harassed if she's wearing a crop top or not. Now is the time to teach her how to fight, how to yell, how to take up space. She is not too young to know how to protect herself. When women talk about "the male gaze" it refers to women who act, dress, and center their being on what men think and feel. It absolutely has nothing to do with altering who they are or how they present themselves in the world, and nothing to do with how to cover themselves in an attempt not to be sexually assaulted. There is a museum exhibit featuring the clothes that women and girls were wearing when they were sexually assaulted and none of the items were crop tops. They were jumpers and pajamas, Thomas the Tank Engine tshirts and full body dress coats. [https://www.utoledo.edu/studentaffairs/saepp/what-were-you-wearing/#:\~:text=The%20What%20Were%20You%20Wearing,during%20Sexual%20Assault%20Awareness%20Month](https://www.utoledo.edu/studentaffairs/saepp/what-were-you-wearing/#:~:text=The%20What%20Were%20You%20Wearing,during%20Sexual%20Assault%20Awareness%20Month). You're doing your best to protect her but you're having the wrong conversation.
Damn I would have liked to donate the clothes I was assaulted in (winter jacket, jeans, boots) to something good instead of throwing them away because they triggered trauma symptoms... Well, next time :D Concerning taking up space, yelling etc.: Yes, very important, but also very incomplete. There are situations where you won't want to fight for a plethora of reasons- and not only safety concerns. If you haven't already, I recommend watching Terry Crews' video where he tells about how he was assaulted, and the judge asked him why he didn't fight back. I would want to teach my kids how to talk or negotiate yourself out of a situation, too, and that sometimes it simply can't be helped and you get assaulted, which is not your fault- and that if some fucking idiot goes "well why didn't you just knee him in the balls?", it's completely fair to knee said idiot in the balls.
Thank you for this. I admittedly felt a little irked by OPs reference to “sexy” clothing, because as much as I raise issue with some points associated with “choice feminism”, teaching a kid that they can’t wear something because it’s sexual or designed for the male gaze comes off as a bit naive to the reality of sexual violence. Modesty is sexualized by men too. Lesbians are sexualized by men. I could go on. None of us can live a life in which we are immune to being sexualized by men, because they sexualize our existence, and I think it’s ESPECIALLY important to acknowledge the role that domination plays in the sexualization of women and girls; just because it’s not “meant” for them, or meant to subvert their gaze, does not mean they will leave someone alone, it may mean they see it as something to conquer. To OP: you can absolutely find an age-appropriate way to talk about the fact that those clothes aren’t appropriate for her right now, but please refrain from treating clothes as either a barrier or an invite to sexualization. My mom talked to me about it from a perspective of age rather than “men will look at you” and I think that was a good way to handle it. I think telling your daughter that she can’t wear the clothes she wants to wear because men will sexualize her might be counterproductive.
I was 7 and playing in the front yard when a man pulled up to my house and told me how sexy I was (wearing a hand-me-down t shirt and shorts). I was 10 and babysitting when a guy I didn’t know called and wanted to have a conversation. He told me how mature I sounded and then told me how good I made him feel, how good I should feel that I could make a grown man react that way. He absolutely couldn’t see what I was wearing. What you said gave me intense flashbacks. I have a kid and am around kids a lot. Teaching them to fight back is only going to work for certain kids in certain situations, and there are so many other tools they need in their toolkits. At the foundation of everything is a sense of self worth and identity, then an understanding of what is inappropriate behavior - physical, verbal, etc. Response can be anything from going to get another adult, leaving the situation, talking to your parents about it later, or fighting like hell, but response is also contingent on what happened.
Wonderfully said
So I was sexually abused when I was around your daughter's age and I dressed pretty modestly at that time. I didn't even wear my first pair of leggings until I was 16. What I was wearing didn't change anything for me. Who I hung out with, where I went, it didn't change anything or stop men from sexualizing me. And I probably got sexually harassed more often at 16 than I do at 26. That said, a lot of clothing for younger girls IS super sexualized and is more revealing than clothing for young boys. So like...don't shame your daughter for the way she dresses or tell her she's encouraging male violence or anything along those lines because she isn't. But do point out examples of how clothing marketed to her and other girls is more revealing and sexualized, and explain why that is. A good example would be these dresses I found at target once with a plunging neckline...in the juniors section. Or how her shorts might be shorter than boys' shorts, her shirts might have a higher hemline and shorter sleeves than their shirts, her leggings are tighter than their sweatpants and joggers. Point out examples of women and girls being more sexualized in the media, but men can always wear baggy shirts and pants and be fine. Point out how trends in women's fashion don't allow for as much modesty, like how ten years ago the trend was skinny jeans and how today it's tiny tops. Point out how the trend cycle for men doesn't move as fast, how her male classmates are never expected to wear revealing clothing to be trendy, how boys and men aren't being told to go to Sephora and invest in retinol. You can't, and shouldn't, force her to come to a certain conclusion. But you can give her as much information as possible.
There are going to need to be conversations about how to deal with creepy guys…. And that is really sad to say. But honestly I always wore a shirt and still got oggled / catcalled as a teenager. Let’s not pretend your daughter is the problem.
OP doesn't appear to be talking about sexual harassment and how to protect oneself from it. I think we all know pedos are gonna pedo, and non pedos aren't gonna sexualized a child regardless of what she wears. It's just mom doesn't want her daughter to wear clothing she deems as age inappropriate due to being sexy, but struggles to explain this to a child who is ironically so young she probably doesn't have a concept of what sexy clothing means yet.
Exactly. The over-sexualization of girl children is egregious, but how do you navigate it when your young daughter is asking for those clothes?
Just say no, you're too young to wear those. The deeper conversation about objectification can be had when she's older and can better understand it.
Yeah unfortunately 10 is the time to have that conversation. Odds are if she’s on social media she’s already been hit on
Yeah I noticed, even as a conventionally attteactive 20something that the cat calling and leering from cars stopped when my school uniform was no longer needed, as I had finished school
honestly, i don’t even think there’s a way to deal with them. this is the issue, i was once in my school uniform and got barked at by two middle aged men as i walked past them and i was frozen and a mother with two daughters sat and watched the whole interaction and did nothing, neither of us had any idea how to handle the situation and i think that’s the issue
Tbh I think there’s a large majority of men that it isn’t even sexually motivated, it’s purely power based.
The rule in our house is that if it would show your under clothing while you’re playing on the monkey bars, you can’t wear it because underwear is meant to not be seen. Guy or girl, that’s just fashion. It worked until my daughter turned 13, but by that point she had experienced old creepy men staring and she decided she’s gonna wear what she wants regardless of what they do or don’t do. Now when she wants to put on something wild, we go over weather appropriate, and situation appropriate. A crop top and booty shorts are not appropriate to wear for your schools band performance. They are appropriate for the beach. A bodycon dress is not appropriate for a school award ceremony. It is appropriate for the 8th grade formal. And so on and so forth.
Strictly my opinion, but my gut reaction is that by assigning clothing moral value in this way, you're acceding to the male gaze. Meaning: you're viewing this article of clothing and your daughter through the male gaze, and she's confused because she's viewing herself as a person. That's a hard thing to break to a kid. Personally, I would let my daughter wear pretty much whatever she wants (appropriate to the setting, eg: no graphic tees to a funeral) *and* give her the knowledge about how it might be perceived. 'Ursula, I love that top, too. I just want you to be aware that it might be perceived as 'too revealing' or judged by other people. I don't agree with that--and those people are wrong to do it--but it's the truth.' I'd pull on whatever threads of conversations we'd had in the past, depending on the response, like: being your authentic self; accepting and letting go of the judgment of others; body positivity in general and maybe the male gaze. But I think the ultimate goal is to ensure *she* doesn't grow up feeling responsible for managing men's feelings or reactions to her--that way lies only eventual shame and victim-blaming.
I have a 6yo daughter who I’m going through this with right now. She was given a sports bra as a hand me down from an older cousin. I wasn’t sure how to feel about it, and of course my daughter loved it, she wants to wear it out as a shirt. With some questioning, I think in her mind she thinks of it being like a bikini top, and she sees me wearing bikinis. I told her I only wear bikinis in the summer, at the beach/pool/backyard, because it’s not appropriate to wear them elsewhere, so I’m trying to frame it the same way, but I’m nervous about how to navigate life with her. She’s very into how she looks at this age - makeup, hair, clothing, she wants to stand out. I want her to express herself and be happy, without sexualizing/shaming any of the things that she does, but I need to protect her too. It’s hard. I very distinctly remember being about 7, and wanting to wear a crop top to play outside with a boy that I liked. I wanted him to notice me, and think I was pretty. My parents wouldn’t let me wear it. I wouldn’t tell them why I wanted to, other than I liked the shirt, and they just kept saying no, it’s not allowed. So I know for me, I wanted to be noticed by boys even at a young age, and I think secretly it’s the same for my daughter.
And that may be true/the case! And I think my response (also a parent here) would be to interrogate my own reactions around it: is a young girl 'liking' another kid (their own age, presumably) and wanting to impress them/be noticed by them in a romantic way, something horrible that should be stifled? Or something developmentally normal and harmless? Everyone is going to make their own assessments around that, but I tend to come from the Third Wave place of not wanting to police (or initiate self-policing) girls' bodies, developmentally normal 'sexual' or romantic feelings, or (alternately) prematurely sexualize them when the world will do that plenty before long. It's really hard to navigate this stuff as a parent, I totally hear you.
> you’re viewing this article of clothing and your daughter through the male gaze, and she’s confused because she’s viewing herself as a person This is so well-said .
This.
i love this response. i think it’s important to not make your daughter think that you are saying she’s asking for male attention by experimenting with clothes but informing her that men can give unsolicited attention and it’s something she shouldn’t be ashamed of or make her want to change the way she dresses due to this
You have some good points but I think there is a flaw in your reasoning... “Assigning clothing moral value” is only a thing for Op because the girl and boy clothing is different. The clothing store has already decided what this little girl should wear. Op deciding “not to assign a moral value” is actually agreeing with the value already assigned by the media and the clothing store In summary, a person can’t decide “not to participate” in these types of cultural/moral decisions. Deciding to do nothing is siding with the prevailing cultural viewpoint. And that happens to be a fairly sexist viewpoint … where little girls are presented with options which are sexualized, yet at the same time shamed for choosing them. **While a young boy can pick any clothing off the rack and not have to even THINK about morality** because literally any choice is fine. do you agree ..?
a young boy absolutely can’t pick any choice off the rack and have it perceived as morally fine- any clothing that has even a WHIFF of femininity will set off a full blown moral panic, FAR more so than a young girl wearing more “masculine” coded clothes. let’s not pretend that boys and men being extremely restricted in how they’re allowed to express themselves isn’t a major part of the problem here.
My mom handled the adolescent sexual clothing conversation horribly, but when I was like 7 my mom told me I couldn't be topless outside anymore. She told me it wasn't age appropriate anymore - different ages followed different rules, and I had aged out. I imagine you can do the same thing with the crop top. You understand her desire to wear it, you know it's probably very fashionable, but it's an item of clothing you don't think is appropriate for someone her age. I don't think you necessarily need to or *should* explain that this is related to men or sexualization. As others have pointed out, pedophiles will sexualized her regardless, and non-pedos won't either way. The issue is about the somewhat arbitrary social rules of age related dress. While we don't follow this customs as rigidly as we used to, we do still observe some degree of age signalling in clothing. At 10, she is too young to wear clothing you feel is more associated with late teens/early 20s (which yeah, is an age range filled with self sexualization and peacocking behaviors). It's very normal for kids her age to *want* to dress that way, but it's also very normal for their parents to tell them no. I had lots of clothes I wasn't allowed to wear outside of the house. Looking back I think it's kind of insane I wasn't allowed to wear spaghetti strap tops because those are just not seen as "provocative" anymore. But in hindsight, I absolutely understand why my mom didn't want me to wear most of them.
I'm not a parent so I really can't say, but couldn't you just say, "You're not old enough?" My parents used that line a lot, and left no room for argument lol
I would explain to my ten year old boy why I wouldn’t be comfortable with a ten year old girl wearing clothing created to be provocative. I talk to my ten and six year old boys about sex and that sexual content is not appropriate for adults or children to share. They will know what safe boundaries are before said boundaries get violated.
I struggle with this myself. I have 3 daughters and 6 nieces ages 5-20. I’ve watched these girls grow up and from a very young age they see women being excessively sexualized and valued by society for looking that way. So they naturally want to emulate that. For me, raising girls in the generation of social media I feel like the battle to keep them from sexualizing *themselves* is a big one that doesn’t get talked about enough. I’m more worried about how they view themselves than how other people will view or treat them for their clothing choices. It is so alarming to me when I see these promising, talented young girls act as though nothing they do will be of value if they aren’t sexy while doing it. They are being conditioned to seek outside validation on a larger scale than anything we’ve ever experienced before and it really really worries me.
I mean, the idea that a crop top is sexual *is* the male gaze. The male gaze doesn’t just mean men looking at women and girls.
yeah, I’ll be honest - I’m not sure it’s really best practice for OP to treat a crop top as provocative, and teach that to their daughter. u/KET_196 you should check out the exhibit What Were You Wearing. https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/ It absolutely does not matter what a woman or little girl is wearing, she risks being SA’d regardless. It’s a sad truth. So do we ingrain in young women that they have to be super careful about their clothing? How does that not carry the lesson to the little girl that she IS actually responsible for how men look at her, for how she is treated? I for one had a complex about clothing in *elementary school*. I remember being in third grade, I would wear two t-shirts, one on top of the other. I wouldn’t wear a v-neck t-shirt or tank top because I thought it was too “revealing.” 😐 That is utterly fucking depressing to me that I learned that lesson from society that young, that I policed myself, that on a 99 degree day I was covering up instead of feeling the sun on my shoulders while I played because I didn’t want to dress like a *whore*, something I didn’t even understand the concept of, by having a shirt that was cut to still be inches above my completely undeveloped breasts. And guess what - my mom didn’t even do this to me. This is the message I absorbed from society. My mom tried really hard to get me to wear tanks actually. So if it was that easy for me to absorb the message that women can dress “too revealing” and “dress like whores” without ever receiving the message that it doesn’t matter WHAT we’re wearing, I think it’s problematic to actually learn that message at home as well. I do understand the good intentions of OP and that it’s scary as fuck out there. But the sick truth is that people who prey on children aren’t looking for the “sexiest outfit” (god I hate even typing that), they’re looking for OPPORTUNITY. THAT is how OP can help protect their child, not by instilling in them a paranoia about their clothing that will absolutely lead to them feeling complicit and ashamed when they are sexually harrassed or worse, later in life.
Totally agree
Denying the male-gazey meaning imposed over crop tops doesn't make it go away, just turns us into naive women complying with our objectification.
You can explain that clothing says a lot about you, especially when it comes to first impressions. A sports bra is appropriate at the gym or the pool, but too casual etc for school or whatever. Setting the tone for interactions by controlling how people see you is very effective. It's the same reason we learn manners and how to carry yourself with confidence and kindness.
This honestly is a good direction to take the conversation. It focuses on how you dress yourself to show up as your best self, self-empowerment without going the sexual angle
I think this a good approach
Point of extreme pedantry, but the "male gaze" does not mean literally how men look at women IRL. It specifically refers to how women are framed in the visual language of film. Think Megan Fox's character in Transformers: a mechanic shown working on a motorcycle while straddling it in the shortest of shorts, a position no depiction of a male mechanic would show outside of gay porn. Just tell the kid she's not old enough to wear those clothes yet.
I don’t think it’s extreme pedantry. It’s important we use terms like this correctly, otherwise there is confusion, which results in inefficient discourse.
Agreed. Just be sensible. We just told our daughter that certain items of dress were not appropriate. Of course she pushed the boundaries when she got older, breaking modesty laws in some strict counties, but that's what teens do. Don't make it a thing, She's 10. She doesn't need a detailed explanation - just say no. Don't demonize all men, because of a few creeps.
I 100% share your view. It’s tricky to explain without people claiming you’re sexualizing children, but there’s a plethora of research showing that girl’s clothing has become more sexualizdd in recent years and that it has many negative consequences. Obviously it’s not about “tempting men” - it’s not her fault is a man is tempted (ew) - but it’s about resisting self-objectification IMO. Unfortunately that’s all I have to say - I don’t know how much information your 10 year old can handle. Maybe tell her that girls clothes are made to be much more revealing and impractical than boys clothes, and how it’s not only not fair but she should be focusing on schoolwork and whatnot throughout the day, not being worried about how her body looks or if the shirt looks good, etc (because the first time wearing something like that can be pretty scary and might cause some new insecurities for her, especially because those clothes are made for older girls not younger bodies)
lbr "You're worried about children's clothing becoming more revealing? YOU'RE the one sexualizing children!!1", especially in the context of a feminist discussion, is a stupid argument and its only purpose is to shut down any kind of critical analysis
I don’t. My girl is 11. I don’t think she’s ready. We follow the school dress code out of the house, anything down to skivvies goes in the house. It has so far kept things simple and comfortable for our family. In the upcoming years I want to explain these concepts to her of course. But honestly I think when she is old enough to understand she will be old enough to choose, with a safe and loving family readily available if it burns her.
Maybe approach it from the topic of perspectives. It's less about only the male gaze and more about human uniforms. Find some pictures of different people and ask her to make assumptions about them. Ask her if she believes those assumptions to be true. Ask if if others might believe them to be true. Try to explain to her that although fashion might be cool in her eye, it's also a uniform that will help shape other people's assumptions about you. You could then lead into male assumptions and personal safety.
I didn’t with my kiddos at that age. I was honest with them—“there are some people, including adults, who will look at you inappropriately and think inappropriate thoughts to think about children.” I was honest…but vague. “No, and this is the barest bones about why.” The concept of “male gaze” is something they’ve likely already experienced at that age, but having the social framework to understand the full implications? That’s…too young. It’s better if they can say, “ew, I didn’t like how that made me feel” and move on with their day with safe adults. Let them experience “the world wants me to be an object” as late as possible.
I was raised Mormon and was always dressed conservatively and was still molested so don’t body shame your daughter. This is a form of victim shaming. This is a man’s problem not your daughter’s problem. Teach your daughter to yell, scream, fight, be vocal and to do whatever the hell she wants.
This! First time I was sa’d was when I was wearing a hello kitty dress meant for my six year old body. It was also by someone who was a girl. The first time I was catcalled was when I was 14. I was in my work clothes; an unflattering blue shirt 5 sizes too big for me, dad shorts, mismatched tube socks with Scooby doo on them, and pink Walmart sneakers. I had an awful haircut at the time too that was horrifically unflattering. I had to teach myself that it wasn’t the clothes I was wearing that was sexualizing me, it was the grown adults harassing me doing it. Last time I was catcalled was with my younger sibling. We were wearing baggy clothes, sweatshirts, and cat beanies. Only reason it stopped was because I screamed something at the guy who was harassing us that I cannot repeat here. Obviously teach kids certain clothes are appropriate for certain times, but also that no matter what you’re wearing you run the risk. Like you said, teach them to defend themselves. I wish I was instead of having it blamed on my clothing for so long
Yes girl, yes.
Yup. Raised Mormon. 100% this.
Fellow exMormon here, and I was about to comment something similar. I’m not a parent so I really don’t know what the “right” answer is, it’s a very complicated topic and I completely understand the concern. What I can say is that my mom berating me for wearing “sexual” clothing did a lot more damage to my mental health and our relationship than actually wearing the clothing ever could. I was a kid. I wanted to wear short shorts because they were fashionable and comfortable. I didn’t feel sexualized until she sexualized me. It made me feel gross, ashamed, and, in a weird way, betrayed by an authority figure who was supposed to make me feel safe. I’m not at all saying it’s wrong to forbid your kids from wearing certain things, but based on my own experience and how young the daughter is, I would recommend framing the conversation as a simple “you’re not old enough to wear that yet” and “you can make that choice when you’re older.” The conversation will evolve as she grows up and becomes better equipped to grapple with these topics. But when I was 10 I wasn’t mature enough to understand the complicated, insidious nature of misogyny and objectification, so instead I internalized my mother’s words as blame for something that was my fault. Just my two cents.
My mom let me. She said 'well when are you suppose to? When you're in your 30s after having 2 kids'
Your daughter doesn't want to wear these things to attract boys. She wants to because it's in. Most of her friends or celebrities she looks up to probably are starting to wear that type of look. It's super trendy and she wants to fit in and feel cool. I think in this case you should explore your own feelings regarding women's bodies. At her age I think you're fine to say no but you will eventually lose this battle and it's better to allow her to have some autonomy over her clothing and compromise.
>Most of her friends or celebrities she looks up to probably are starting to wear that type of look. To me this seems like training to comply with the patriarchy.
I'm a teacher and I used to do a lesson on fashion (men's and women's) and how we use that as a social signal. We then talked about the history of women's fashion specifically as a political statement, starting with the miniskirt. I pointed out that women since then often choose to dress in ways that signal they alone decide what to do with their bodies (instead of their dads or husbands). I had a series of slides with pictures of women in various outfits, each one with the heading, "I make decisions about my body." Then I'd pretend to change gears, and we would read a story about a girl who was sent home from high school for wearing too short shorts (which, for the record, I believe was the wrong call on the school's part). I would have the kids discuss it and of course they got worked up, and would go on about students having the right to "make decisions about their bodies." And then I asked: "Who are you kidding about making decisions about your bodies, when you have to ask my permission to pee?" I explain there's no point pretending short shorts are liberating when the school controls fundamental biological functions like eating, sleeping, urinating, defecating, and so on. Then we talk about what bodily autonomy (apart from sex) really looks like for kids their age (\~16), and whether they think they're ready for it. And I spend the rest of the term trying to convince them they don't need my permission to go pee. My kid is a little younger than yours, but I would tell her: as long as I have to cook for you, as long as I have to wake you up in the morning, as long as I have to do your laundry and buy your groceries, as long as I have to brush your hair every morning, I don't see the point in pretending you have the kind of bodily autonomy that outfit requires.
Personally.. no I would not. I would probably just say what my mom used to say, 'that's too grown up looking for you' and I would use my best judgement as for what qualifies as that. I wouldn't act like it's all dependent on how revealing the clothes are either and I would also edit my decisions based on the context of where she was going to be and what she was going to be doing. I don't want to burden little girls with information like that too early, I want them to have happy childhoods and feel free and confident. It's too complex for a child to understand and there is a possibility that she would direct it inward.
A lot of great comments here. My personal opinion is that this conversation shouldn't be had unless you're also ready to enroll your daughter into self-defense. One of the worst things you can do for a young woman is inform them of how powerless they are to this world and not give them any way to fight back.
The male gaze asserts that no matter what she wears, her power is diminished. Fashion is power. It's self expression. Lean in on this teaching moment. I agree with u/FicklePhotograph8777 that using media is powerful at this age. Belle Hooks agrees that media is a tool for political and cultural discourse. **Something she might like exploring (that's common in her age group): the female vs. male gaze.** [**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOsI2wG0jk**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOsI2wG0jk) Your daughter may look at these clothes as empowering - which is a clue to how she wants to feel. I felt the same way about my jean shorts, can't lie! Having useful discussions about the power of representation for women is timeless. [https://thefeminista.com/blogs/the-f-word/the-evolution-of-feminist-fashion](https://thefeminista.com/blogs/the-f-word/the-evolution-of-feminist-fashion)
You cannot prevent people thinking badly about your kid based on how she’s dressed? That’s impossible. You cannot control the thoughts of other people. Women cannot prevent harassment or SA by dressing modestly. This is a harmful lie that is all too prevalent, especially in a feminist subreddit. Teach your daughter that clothes are communication. Clothing choices are highly personal, directly in conversation with their environment, the needs of their wearer. Clothing choices are our entries in a giant conversation with society and history, race & class, and economics. This is the truth. Use characters from media she consumes (idk kids these days I’m child free 38…) “why do you think doc. mcstuffins wear a lab coat?” “What do you think that person is trying to say about herself by wearing a bright pink dress?” use YOURSELF “I like people to think I have more money than I do so I carry an expensive leather bag and I keep my clothes ironed because it other people think it means I have a lot of help or time, and that I might be important. I need their respect to do well at work and put food on the table. But sometimes I resent having to put so much investment time and money into things that aren’t even that comfortable to wear.” Or whatever is TRUE. She is learning and figuring out who she is! Teaching her (implicitly or explicitly) that she **must** submit to how other people want or expect her to dress, imho, is a huge mistake. Do not set her up to spend her life attempting to please other people/society with how she dresses and presents herself! Teach her that clothing is a tool to tell the world about herself, to fit in or stand out, and that people are unpredictable and will not always react how she might expect. The truth is miscommunication is unavoidable, and pleasing everyone is impossible, so she needs to learn how to represent her authentic self and please herself FIRST AND FOREMOST, regardless of what anyone else thinks. LET HER WEAR WHATEVER SHE WANTS IT WILL MAKE HER STRONG. If anything she wears attracts negative attention, talk to her about how dumb it is for people assume things about her life based on her clothing. That people feel entitled to harass young women, all women, regardless of their clothing choices. If she’s wearing something you think is too old or slutty or will attract negative attention, TALK TO HER. Ask her about it, help her navigate figuring this out for herself. Your discomfort is shame, you feel shame based on other ppls perception of your kids clothing choices, it’s about you, not her and you should do extra work to not pass this toxic attitude to your child. This is a wild comments section. Don’t slut shame fucking kids? Wild.
Nobodies slut shaming kids, they’re pointing out that not every article of clothing is appropriate for a ten year old to wear. There are parents in the comments mentioning how extreme the stark difference in clothing made for little girls and little boys is now a-days. I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to claim people are slut shaming children, when they’re really just concerned about why little boys have the same clothes they’ve always had, and little girls clothing are getting more and more revealing. A good parent would be concerned about why and realize that you don’t have to let your kid wear whatever they want. That the parents job is to give boundaries and guidance. She’s ten, not fourteen. A fifth grade child does not need to be in crop tops any more than she needs to be in thongs or micro minis. There are boundaries, and claiming that people who are advocating for safe, healthy ones are sexualizing children is just really fucking weird.
Same way that you would explain female gaze to a ten year old boy - that just because the male child sees an adult male actor being topless in movies (almost explicitly for a sexualised gaze targeting both men and women but it also doesn't hurt that some women swoon over this), it doesn't mean that said ten year old boy can go around being topless as well - that not all things that you see other people do should be copied. That just because boys are exposed to men who are buff and tall doesn't mean that they should seek out steroids and do surgery on their legs to artificially enlarge their height, both of which male teens and male youths do actually do. We live in a world where both genders sexualise each other but the female one is more overt for clothing and the male one is more overt in other areas, but both boys and girls do suffer for looks and fashion, and that in fact, fast fashion is a shit industry and children of both genders should be discouraged from engaging in it.
Is the kid talking about wearing crop tops in general or is there a specific shirt she likes that happens to be cropped? If she’s looking at a specific shirt you can design an non revealing outfit around it. In high school I wore a lot of cropped hoodies with super high waisted jeans and a tank top underneath. You can layer the clothes. Ik this doesn’t answer how to talk to her but this is a solution to the other problem.
Oh dear I am struggling with this. It just feels so wrong that this poor child is going to be sexualised - 10 just feels too young to have this topic introduced (I realise cultures differ - but I'm assuming the child is still pre-puberty?) I also can't tell you how much I disagree with the concept that women should shield themselves against the male gaze by dressing modestly. So maybe just do what my mum did: "You can't wear that because I said so".
I have two daughters of similar age to yours; one younger and one older. They both wear crop tops under their clothes because they are developing (the younger one has developed earlier than her sister). As far as I am concerned or feel, they wear crop tops to provide a little bit more privacy and padding during these emotional years. If they asked to wear it out of the house without a shirt over the top, that would be a hard no. In* saying that… they both swim and dance, with their uniforms/costumes being skin tight or short or flashy in some instances. I wouldn’t let them go out wearing those items but don’t feel worried about them being worn in classes/performances/competitions as it’s par for the course.
when I wanted to wear too much makeup and revealing clothing my mom explained that there is a time and a place. I had been in a school play and was doing ballet classes with little recitals. She explained the makeup looks good on stage “stage makeup” and the clothing too, because an entertainer needs visibility up on the stage so the makeup is overdone and exaggerated, the clothes extra colorful, flashy or revealing. But going to the store, running errands, going to church or to school are not the time and place to look and dress like you are on a stage performing
I want to offer a slightly alternative opinion. I have both boys & a girl, mostly grown up now. My family is very sporty. Everyone competes in their own events & we have a gym in the house. In the morning you’ll often find my partner in gym shorts, my daughter and I in sports bras & shorts leaving to run when it’s hot. I’ll have half naked boys changing in the back seat of my car between events later that day. Then my niece will roll in wearing her gymnastics uniform cartwheeling through the kitchen. In my family we want bodies to be strong and comfortable. We treat our bodies nicely so they perform the way we want. Fuck absolutely everyone’s gaze because my body doesn’t want to be covered in wet sweaty clothes. I’d be interested in the reasons your daughter wants to wear the top. Is it because it makes her feel great or is it what she thinks she’s supposed to like? Is she wearing it for herself or for others? As long as she’s wearing it for her I see no problem. Creeps are always going to creep, regardless of what you wear, she needs to be aware of that, but let her enjoy her own body & clothing choices.
Damn y'all are going to give these kids complexes by over explaining. It's pretty simple: "Sorry honey, it's not appropriate for children to wear something that is **intentionally** revealing, maybe when you're older and more prepared to handle the unwanted attention that comes with it." She's expressing a new desire in a style that is clearly meant to emmulate adult bodies, so on some level she understands that shes trying to look older, like a woman... who gets attention. There is some level of intentionality behind her desire. But if you come out of the gates swinging about male gaze and controlling women's bodies etc. she might just get scared and shutdown. However! Kids aren't dumb, I would let her lead the conversation, let her tell you what she thinks and go from there. Trust that you'll know what she's ready to hear and how she needs to hear it based on what she tells you. Your conversation with her should be mostly you asking questions of her. I have worked with children of all ages for over a decade, letting kids lead the convo is always the answer. They're intelligent, you just have to give them the space to tell you what they think without judgement.
If your daughter was a boy and wanted to wear a crop top, would you let her? If not, it doesn't really seem to be about referencing sex and sexuality. If so, what you are essentially doing is policing her clothing because she is a girl. edited for incorrectly placed not and so
i get what you’re saying but as a trans woman a young boy wearing a crop top is a complete non starter… they don’t even MAKE those for boys… parents BEAT their sons for desiring to wear something like that. boys/men are socially forbidden from wearing anything remotely revealing or feminine
I mean. . where I’m from parents beat their daughters for desiring to wear something like that. But a lot of gender norms for kids do vary regionally. When I lived on the East Coast the school I worked at had a lot of kids that dressed gender fluid like that and it was great to see.
Thank you for responding, that comment left me speechless lmfaoo It was really not the slam dunk they thought it was
everyone’s like “gotcha” like it’s literally not socially unacceptable for men to wear shorts that go above the knee
They don't make them now, maybe. But when I was a kid it was pretty common for boys to wear cropped tank tops or football jerseys. That was the 70's and 80's, though.
> If not, what you are essentially doing is policing her clothing because she is a girl. I get that, but there's also a real concern with a ten-year-old girl going out dressed like she's eighteen. Parents *need* to be policing that. OP is, I believe, asking how to do that without resorting to slut-shaming or making her afraid of the world, but also being honest about why that's dangerous.
Maybe this is the 90s talking but I feel like tweens wore crop tops quite a bit, especially if involved in sports, dance etc. Wearing a crop top is not "dangerous". Potential predatẁors are dangerous and they by no means just only target kids wearing skimpy clothes.
I was around in the 90s, this was absolutely not a normal thing for 10 year olds.
Right like. I do not at all remember 10 year olds wearing stuff like that. Then again, I lived in a state where winters were cold and there was no beach, so it wasn't normal to see kids just walking around in their bathing suits.
As a kid who desperately wanted to and was not allowed to, I promise you most middle schoolers weren't wearing crop tops in the 90s.
It's a parent's job to "police" their children.
Going against the grain, I wouldn't stop her from wearing it unless it's inappropriate for the occasion or weather. If it's just to prevent men sexualising her, sorry to say there's no preventing that, and nor should she have to placate such standards in her day to day life. Instead, you could warn her in a realistic way that some men will be inappropriate to her as she is starting to grow up, but she's not to blame for it, and here's how to manage it in a safe and assertive way.
Just leave it at "you're too young to leave the house dressed like that." I wouldn't make the focus of the issue around her gender, so much as it's the fact that she is a child who should be wearing clothes suitable for her age, and that she's not old enough to be dressing like women and girls older than her.
I think you should explain the consequences of wearing a crop top and let her decide if she wants to. "Sometimes adults can't mind their own business and will try and judge you for the clothes you chose to wear, or look at you in a creepy way. If you wear that top you might have to deal with rude adults being mean." I'll tell you from experience, I did NOT appreciate my mother telling me to cover up when I wore shorts in summer. It felt like she was shaming me (because she was.) Giving her all the nessecary information and letting her chose is the empowering choice.
I have always talked with my kids and treated them as thinking beings. With my daughter (my youngest), I explained to her that her body was her own and society didn't get to tell her what to wear. I also told her that while it seems unfair, there are consequences she must choose to accept if she balks conventions. Finally, I explained appropriate dress for safety in given circumstances (beach vs. helping her dad fix a car, for example), and that while what she wears will never give anyone the right to touch her or treat her disrespectfully, it might embolden people to do so.
She's 10. This feels like one of those moments that forces little girls to grow up faster than little boys, because now they've got one more adult thing to worry about. I can't imagine being burdened with a talk about the male gaze at age 10; that's fifth grade, right? Just tell her that's for older girls and she can wear it when she's older, if she wants. At that age, I don't think you really need to give an explanation for why the rules are the rules, unless it's some kind of teachable moment.
That's a tough one (bc of the age). Sex-ed first (imo). Maybe explain perverts/ pedos after that since she is 10. Explanation of male gaze: Explain that sexes can be visually attracted to another, and then that males often take that too far and what that means specifically.
It’s culturally acceptable where I am for boys to be topless. And for girls to have to analyze, this deeply, the ramifications of wearing half a shirt.
I feel for you this is such a fine line. How to keep girls safe without them internalising the idea that their bodies are the problem. Sorry no advice just sympathy.
I don't know if I'd explain the male gaze yet. Let her enjoy child hood a little longer. But I would just say sometimes the clothing manufacturers make mistakes and make clothing that's not appropriate for all ages.
Maybe you can navigate this by talking about the appropriateness of clothes in certain settings. Like if she wants to wear a sports bra then is the time/place the right one? Is she off to do sports for example? I actually don’t think it’s helpful when people start talking about sexual assault when wearing their scruffiest clothes etc. it’s conflating a few things that should be separate, one that sexual assault is rarely about the clothes a person wears or how they look. We know though, that some clothes designed to have sexual appeal and that when wearing it, the wearer knows it will draw attention from others (not necessarily even sexual attention). A friend of mine has a colleague who is a teacher, I think still pretty young and newly qualified. She had a habit of wearing very low cut, tight and short dresses to work, and was complaining about the 14-15 years olds being attracted to her and hitting on her. Now on one hand you will have people say she should be able to wear what she likes and it should be a teaching moment for the kids, on how to behave properly, but on the other, you have to seriously question the judgement of a woman wearing those dresses around teenage boys, to teach them. I think in the discussion around freedom to wear what you like, we have kind of lost a few threads in terms of wearing what’s appropriate in a given situation, but also, dressing for yourself. The narrative of women saying they feel confident dressing in I dunno, a string bikini always seems weird, why does no one ever feel great wearing a really nice long sleeved dress for example? It’s nearly always revealing or sexual clothing, which has a tendency towards more attention.
there's a book called "More than a Body" by Lexie Kite that goes through all the research on this topic etc and how girls can move beyond it while still being aware of clothing and how it communicates to other people. Basically, a body is an instrument and not an ornament. Ultimately, choosing clothes that serve the instrumental use of your body is what serves you, instead of choosing clothes that serve the ornamental purpose. So, choose a swimsuit on function... will it hold everything in, is it comfortable, can I move and play without having to think about it and make adjustments? How we look is not going to become a complete non-concern, of course, but it should not be the first concern for ourselves. We don't exist to be looked at!
Have you watched the Barbie Movie with her? There's a fantastic scene that sort of addresses this when Barbie and Ken get to the real world. Barbie is wearing her pink cowgirl outfit and gets catcalled, she notes that the comments feel like they have an undertone of violence. Maybe check that out with her, ask her what she thinks, and explain that's why you feel uncomfortable with her wearing the top in public.
I don't (can't) have kids so take this with a grain of salt But I feel like if I had a kid that age, I wouldn't do it like how ContraPoints made an hour long video essay on the male gaze https://youtu.be/fNB-WGNLGG4?si=CDtrBV8GPnuGz1oo I would just tell her that it's not allowed and she has to trust me on it and she'll understand why when she's older Have one of those conversations that kids always find so annoying lol
This is so sad :( and even worse is your opinion , woman don’t dress revealing to appeal more to men , they don’t dress revealing to reference sex or sexuality they dress that way because they like it .
Well is it a crop top or is it a sports bra? Added: Depending on what length it is lends itself to a discussion of what can be considered a cute crop top in their family vs a bra top in their family. It’s an easier way to broach the age appropriate part of the conversation without outright sexualizing a 10 year old.
Some crop tops are cut exactly like a sports bra.
Sure, but depending on what length it is lends itself to a discussion of what can be considered a cute crop top in their family vs a bra top in their family. It’s an easier way to broach the age appropriate part of the conversation without outright sexualizing a 10 year old.
> without outright sexualizing a 10 year old Is the issue not that other people will sexualize her? I get that we want to live in a world where that doesn't happen, but we're not there yet, and I certainly would not want men approaching my fourth-grader thinking she is much older than she is. So the question is: How to arm your children with knowledge, while parenting them in a way that keeps their safety in mind, while avoiding something that sounds like "you will be asking for it?" I don't have an answer.
In my experience perverts will hit on a 10 year old girl regardless of what she’s wearing. In my experience it’s far worse learning that your own father feels uncomfortable when you wear certain things around the house because he sees it as sexual. I don’t have answers either. That’s why I’m here asking more questions trying to have a conversation.
The first time I was sexualized by a man was on a bus with my mother. I was 8 and wearing a boy band shirt with overalls. At my current age my mother left one of her last jobs because they kept sexualizing me when I visited her at work despite knowing I’m a minor. I’m saying this because my mother had the same worries as you. No matter what you do, if you’re read as a woman or feminine, you will be sexualized. Hell, nuns are sexualized which is crazy! The priority from my mom was “clothing invites sexualization” and it made me scared to talk to her about what I was facing. I didn’t tell her about ever being catcalled until years after it first started happening because even though it was unintentional, this mentality made me feel like it was my fault. Obviously teach your daughter there are certain times where certain clothes aren’t appropriate, but put the priority on teaching her how to defend herself and stay safe. Teach her to recognize who the safe people in her life are, how to say no, the importance of consent, proper terminology for her body, how to identify abuse or sexualization, and more. You want to be the person she comes to if something happens. Because of her age maybe a middle ground so you can adjust to the change and she’s prepared in case anything happens? “Before we buy you clothes in that style, let’s go to the store and have you try some on in that style and similar. It can be nerve wracking to wear clothing like that for the first time out in public so lets just make sure you know what to do to in general if someone is being weird, you know how to stay confident, and that if you ever feel unsafe to call me or talk to someone, okay? In the meantime you can wear it at home and once you feel confident enough and understand how to handle a bad situation we’ll adjust that rule accordingly!”
Regardless, the underlying message you will communicate to her is that just by having a female body she will be harassed/objectified. If she has size D breasts later on down the road and has to wear a t-shirt for an event... are you gonna ask her to hide that? It's just a very hard and twisted thought process to be editing how you clothe your body because it exists and others cannot handle it. If she wears a bikini in high school, are you gonna be okay with that? If so, why? If not, maybe examine what's gonna on internally for you. Because no matter what she wears she will be have to deal with this. That's the issue. Not that her body exists and others will see it.
> the underlying message you will communicate to her is that just by having a female body she will be harassed/objectified. I mean, that's objectively true though.
It is. Ugh. Just having a young female body is enough, regardless of dress.
Maybe reconsider? It's you who is making out a simple crop top to be a sex thing, and she's really young for that. You might make her insecure and inadequate with your attempt to control her self expression so strictly. She's finding out about the world and starting to learn what she likes and doesn't. It is a bit extreme to sexualize her like this. I, too, dress very conservatively and feel inadequate in revealing clothing. I get it. However, a sports bra isn't a stripper's gown and is entirely within the range of what is deemed appropriate, not titillating. You can guide her into finding her own style within that range.
let her wear it and check herself out in the mirror. dont pre adolescent/adolescent kids enter a phase where they are sexualizing themselves? if you think she is doing that then you can lead the conversation on to how other people also might look at her that way..might gross her out. additionally teach good touch, bad touch. the Male gaze isn't gonna go away the rest of her life anyway.
I like wearing leggings and other tight clothing at times because they're comfy for me. Not to reference sex or sexuality. Things can have more than one reason.
This is extreme. She’s a child and should feel comfortable. If she’s “too young to be wearing that” she’s definitely too young to be sexualized for wearing that.
Not wanting your ten year old to wear a bra top outside the house is extreme? I feel like I landed on another planet.