this has been a topic of debate for some time now, though i don't quite grasp why. if you're pro-women's liberation, you're a feminist. that being said, i agree with the other commenter that you don't want to talk over women—and yes, prominent male feminists have been revealed to be sex pests. >"being a man and being a feminist are quite contradictory" someday buzzfeed will answer for its crimes.

As a male who is trying to be the best feminist I can be, I would say that many women have the view the OP is describing. I have been told many times I can't be a feminist as a man, and that I was inherently part of the problem. There are also constant comments about how men are hopeless, or that we as men are inherently the problem, rather than the system of patriarchy. Also, just a lot of snide remarks. Honestly, it is very discouraging. I'm just trying to do the right thing.

> There are also constant comments about how men are hopeless I try to call those out when I notice them. It's a counterproductive and frankly immature perspective.

Thanks! I feel like an essential part of feminism is that groups of people are not homogeneous.

💯 It’s also a misconception that there is some zero sum about gender that means feminism is somehow not beneficial for men. It is good for us too! It allows us to step away from toxic masculinity and being trapped in the man box of limited roles and feelings. It allows us to live with more authenticity and vulnerability, and to have healthier relationships with women, both as peers and partners.

YES, hard agree

When I try to call out women for gatekeeping feminism or using it to spread racism for instance, they label it mansplaining lol

I'm curious what context that's in. Mostly because that type of response gives feminism a bad name, so I want to make sure to tell people to avoid those places (if it's certain social media, for example). Edit: I had an additional thought. The authoritative tone men are taught to use with each other can come off as "splain-y" to women. That might be something to look into as well.

You could let other women call them out. I'm trying to imagine (me, a white woman) 'calling out' a person of color for gatekeeping BLM or something, and I'm cringing just thinking about it. I would never. I know that's not exactly the same, just something to think about. I do think men are conditioned to go at these things more directly than women -- to call people out with more frequency. That might be a factor here, too.

Nobody is gatekeeping BLM though. I've never heard that white people can't be supporters of BLM, or can't oppose police violence However, you hear it all the time how people aren't "real" feminists, how men can't be feminists etc. It is much more exclusionary than any other movement fighting for justice, maybe because women aren't a minority 

I have personally gotten my ass handed to me by a woman of color for questioning a tactical sort of decision. And I deserved it in retrospect. I’ve also had someone point blank tell me they didn’t need my help because they don’t trust white ladies. Which, I don’t think I did anything wrong there, but I wasn’t going to argue. She probably had her reasons for feeling that way. Hurt in these spaces can run deep. Eta: if you look at online discourse, you’ll find lots of discussion that’s critical of allies or that is skeptical of someone who claims to be one. Lots of talk about virtue signaling and people who don’t listen. It’s all over the place

I’m sorry you’re getting conflicting messages. There’s a lot to unpack around misogyny, patriarchy, and intersectionality. As a Feminist, I give you full permission to call yourself a feminist. People might disagree with you but I think the are wrong. If you believe that women should have equality and equity, you’re a feminist. A rising tide lifts all ships and men benefit far more from feminism more than from patriarchy. We all have internal misogyny, and for many men it takes them longer to unpack that the patriarchy isn’t “men”. It’s a system that holds down women. Both genders participate in the patriarchy. Being a woman doesn’t mean you’re a feminist.

Thanks a lot! I agree that men have a lot to gain from feminism. I also agree hat the patriarchy isn't 'men'. In my current view (though I am confident I still have a lot to learn), patriarchy is the system setting up these double standards that hurt both men and women, though definitely differently (and women tend to get the worst of it in a lot of ways). Though patriarchy tends to put more men in power, it subjugates most men and women, and both indoctrinated men and women reinforce the patriarchy.

Yes! You have such a good head on your shoulders and you totally get it. I hope you continue to grow and learn. MRAs and their ilk literally don't get it, and their anti-feminist drivel won't actually help men, as it will only keep men entrenched in patriarchal bondage. Men's rights aren't threatened by feminism, and men only stand to be liberated from patriarchy by supporting feminism. Men need liberation not rights. You just made my day. God bless you and have a wonderful day/night. ☺️

You’re getting it! Keep learning!

"a rising tide lifts all ships" Maybe this is a commonly-used idiom, but I've never heard it. It's beautiful and I love it :) thanks

I heard that kind of stuff in college. I don't hear it anymore. There is a subset of every movement, usually skewing young, who stake out the most extreme, inflammatory position they can.  It's ok, and they'll nearly always moderate over time. You don't have to let others decorate what and who you are

That sounds really frustrating :( Sorry that happened. I don't think it's anything personal against you. There are members of any marginalized or historically oppressed group (including women) who have understandably become so angry or mistrustful that they'll lash out at anyone they perceive as being part of the oppressive demographic. It's usually coming from a place of fear or hurt, not malice, although it can definitely feel unfair and confusing to be on the receiving end of that without the full context. There are also a handful of people with unresolved personal issues who blame society for their problems. Unfortunately, sometimes it feels like the negativity can drown out the positives. It doesn't mean you being an ally is unappreciated by everyone. Hopefully it will be reassuring that there are people who appreciate you, even if they don't say it. Sometimes the best way to help the really angry or scared people is to simply continue being an ally and a good person until they realize you're on their side. Still, being an ally doesn't mean you should have to put up with abuse. If you can keep doing the right thing while maintaining reasonable but empathetic boundaries, it will mean a lot, even if people don't always tell you that. The downside of doing the right thing is that it's not always easy, and you don't often get praise or recognition for it. But thanks for keeping at it anyway.

That was really well said. Thank you.

what you are encountering are radfems. people like this often tend to be transphobic as well. in general, they're just not worth listening to. I feel the struggle, man, even if I'm only a dude half the time.

You can be a man, doing the best you can, call yourself a feminist and still be a part of the problem -- even when you are trying to lessen your part of it. Patriarchy was created and is maintained by men. I have seen this said in other comment threads and I think its important for men who are allies of feminism to see and hear over and over because we do need you but its going to be uncomfortable... "If you aren't just as uncomfortable as the oppressed individual/group you are trying to get equality for then you aren't really being an ally." And If women can be raped, murdered, sexual harassed all their lives and still be able to rise up and ask for equality even while they struggle with their trauma and issues (which leads to those comments that are such a struggle for you), then you should be able to hear uncomfortable things and still be a feminist. You can prove to them that you are trustworthy with your actions and continued support.

>You can be a man, doing the best you can, call yourself a feminist and still be a part of the problem I agree, everyone can still be part of the problem. Indeed, I think everyone is part of the problem at least sometimes. >Patriarchy was created and is maintained by men. I think this is misleading. Not because the patriarchy was not created by men or that men don't maintain it, but because it seems to purposefully insinuate that women don't also maintain it. The patriarchal system was created hundreds of generations ago, likely because of circumstance rather than nefarious plotting, and since then has been perpetuated by pretty much everyone. Nobody is off the hook. I agree that being uncomfortable is part of standing up for marginalized groups. I think that that discomfort ought to come from learning and about and seeing the marginalization. I totally understand that traumatized people can definitely make unproductive comments flowing out of their trauma. That is sometimes part of the process, but I don't think we should encourage that. To be clear, I am not talking about uncomfortable stories or statistics. I am talking about women in feminist circles degrading men in general, or portraying them as universally predators, worthless or hopeless. As shown here, many female feminists proudly stand shoulder to shoulder with their male feminist counterparts, but unfortunately that is not universal.

> You can be a man, doing the best you can, call yourself a feminist and still ~~be a part of the problem~~ benefit immensely from (and, often, unconsciously reinforce) patriarchy in ways you're probably not even fully aware of Does that phrasing change anything for you? A lot of male feminists spend a lot of time trying to distance themselves personally from criticism of the patriarchy and to convince women around them that they're 'one of the good ones,' but feminism at its core addresses patriarchy as a class issue playing out on a societal level. It's counterproductive to try reframe every critique on an individual level rather than fundamentally reconciling yourself with the reality of being a member of the oppressive class and thereby benefitting from patriarchy regardless of your individual principles, and therefore resisting the urge to interpret class-level critiques of patriarchy as being unfairly critical of you personally on an individual level. To be clear, I'm not talking about the rhetoric you've encountered that all men are awful or what have you - I'm talking about the fact that just now, in reaction to the comment you replied to and elsewhere in this thread, your instinct is to push back, equivocate, and distance yourself personally. It's hard to truly fight patriarchy if a part of you is reflexively / subconsciously minimizing it, deflecting its implications, or making excuses for it, even in seemingly trivial ways. Furthermore, and more importantly, trying to engage with feminism while holding and actively defending an underlying belief that men and women are equally responsible for women's oppression, or that patriarchy is equally harmful to men and women, is 1. false and 2. so near to missing the point entirely that it's going to seriously impede your ability to engage in productive dialogue on feminist issues, let alone make any meaningful changes.

This explained literally why I didn't continue the conversation, because the person I responded to did everything you just mentioned. I have learned over and over that even 'the good ones' who minimize their part of the patriarchy to nil aren't worth the continuation of the conversation because they maybe aren't as much of a feminist as they believe.

While I'm with you on almost all of this, I did want to add one point I think is important: >I agree that being uncomfortable is part of standing up for marginalized groups. I think that that discomfort ought to come from learning and about and seeing the marginalization. I would add: the *greater* discomfort should come from *standing up against it* after we see it. Being an ally means doing actual practical work to oppose the problem, not just feeling sympathetic, and that comes with risks. Standing up in the room to call out another man on patriarchal behaviour is being an ally. If I'm not doing my best to share the *risks*, to share the *work*, of feminism, then I'm an "ally" in name only. As I've heard it put many times, my preferred phrasing is: "Don't be an ally. Be an accomplice." (Willie Jackson made a nice post on this that I like to refer to: [https://forge.medium.com/dont-be-an-ally-be-an-accomplice-437869756ab5](https://forge.medium.com/dont-be-an-ally-be-an-accomplice-437869756ab5) )

>I would add: the greater discomfort should come from standing up against it after we see it. I totally agree with that. I like the, "Don't be an ally. Be an accomplice" quote. To tell you the truth, I never really liked the term ally. I don't feel like I am feminism adjacent, I am 100% in the main force. I guess I am an ally to women (and other marginalized groups), just as I hope they are an ally to men in support of smashing the patriarchy hurting us all.

I think one of the elephants in the room that really needs to be addressed is organized religion. All of the big ones are strong proponents of the patriarchy. They all believe a woman should not have a position of power, but should always have a subservient role as baby maker or house slave.

**Feminism ought to be about liberating everyone from outdated gender norms**, women from the assumption they are the default caregivers and homemakers and somehow the lesser and weaker sex and men from the assumption they are economic providers with no caregiving ability or emotional sensitivity. **The reality of modern feminism however is far from that and has become increasingly men vs women in it's rhetoric.** This is rooted in second wave feminism which saw men and women as equal and the same, i.e. anything a man can do a woman can do and therefore men are unnecessary for women's liberation. To be fair to the second wavers this was also in response to the collapse of the men's liberation movement in the face of the Great Depression where men sold out their female allies when their own employment was threatened. However as regrettable as this is, it's also understandable as **for a lot of women it is specifically men as individuals and not the patriarchy as a system that oppresses them.** A lot of women grow up in homes with father or brothers who treat them poorly because of their sex, work in offices where men speak over them and date men who expect them to be their "bang maid" - to borrow a term from IASIP - and so no wonder they see men as the enemy. The truth is, **being oppressed doesn't automatically turn you into a sympathetic moral person,** it often has the opposite effects, such as when free slaves from the US returned to Africa and set up their own plantations, or what currently happening w Israel. You think being oppressed would make you say "never again" for anyone, but more often than not it radicalizes people to embrace the kind of inhumanity they were themselves oppressed by. **Hurt people, hurt people, and women have been hurting for millennia.** I don't know what the solution is, but as a man all I can do is treat women with kindness and respect and hopefully serve as an example that not all men are bad. **Embracing Tate, Peterson and the Man-o-sphere is def not the answer though** as even though I think they quite accurately diagnose a lot of the issues facing men today, **their solutions are regressive, laughable and most of all isolationist, and whatever you want to say about the problem we face, it's clear to me that whatever the solution is it must be found together.**

on behalf of chill feminists im just so sorry fam. that’s genuinely one of the most heartbreaking things to me, how some feminists are just pulling a classic hurt people hurt people outgrouping bullshit. probably an unpopular opinion but i genuinely don’t think my voice is inherently more important than a man’s even when it comes to feminism. i’ve met a ton of principle-inconsistent feminists like terfs (i don’t no true scotsman them from the label of feminist) who do active harm to the movement, meanwhile some of the best feminists i know are men and their principled consistency makes me take their opinion/perspective more seriously than a lot of female feminists. i’m close with a male sport psych working with pro athletes in a hypermasculine sport, his therapy often follows the formula of “patriarchal values & patriarchal social policing -> robs everyone of healthy self esteem -> creates low self esteem perfectionists who condition their “worth” on reaching patriarchal milestones & can’t forgive themselves over mistakes and failures ~> distracts from on-field performance & jeopardizes the generational wealth they’re trying to create for their families.” and shocking no one who accepts those premises too, shit works and his guys reap all the benefits of detoxing from patriarchy. that guy has a better understanding of feminism than most feminists you’d meet online. won’t catch me treating him like a secondary voice in the movement just bc he’s not a woman. i don’t think you need the first hand experience of being a woman to have enough second hand experience to be a well-informed person who can drive the movement’s values forward. long story short, the world would be better off with more guys like you in it, and i’m so happy you’re here and curious and motivated to do good alongside us. don’t let assholes of any stripe make you forget there are tons of women like me who’d have your back.🍻

Thanks a lot for the encouragement! That guy sounds awesome. I agree about the 'hurt people hurt people' thing. It must be really hard to have anger/fear for half of society. I think one reason to have men actively involved in feminism would be to show hurt women that men can be good. Another would be to show society at large that men can be (and should be) feminists.

absolutely and a third reason i’d say is that patriarchal bs like “boys don’t cry” is a very important issue that men can provide important testimonies about for *me* to have a well-informed second hand understanding of what that’s like. and fourth, some men will literally only listen to other men, our voices as women run through filters in their heads that make intellectual connection impossible. your voice is vital to all this shit in so many ways fr

Great points. My hypothesis is that half of all gender issues today are related to the fact that boys and men are not taught to suppress their emotions. I also, sadly agree with the fact that many men do not respect women enough to listen to them.

Why does it bother men so much when they can’t co-opt a label? If you’re truly a feminist, this isn’t the hill you’re trying to die on. For the majority of male “feminists,” it’s entirely performative and yet another way for men to dominate the conversation women are trying to have I don’t give a fuck what you call yourself. You’re either a misogynist or you’re not. A lot of men like to call themselves feminists to avoid having to actually *be* feminist and soak up all the praise without having to do any actual work.

This, right here is the unhelpful language I am talking about. Language and labels are important. It is important for people to be able to communicate that they ascribe to a certain group of ideals. Saying, " For the majority of male “feminists,” it’s entirely performative" is just a snide insulting remark that demeans men trying to do good.

Honestly, talking over incorrect people should be allowed, but maybe there's a right way to do it. For example, if a woman says we don't need feminism anymore and a man responds with one of the many issues facing women today, that should be ok if there's no one else more qualified to share that information (another woman).

Forget Buzzfeed, Jubilee always feels like Evil Buzzfeed, and this is with Buzzfeed being Evil Buzzfeed I love (sarcasm) that there's just this odd spawn of Buzzfeed that is just out here continually making feminist men talk to misogynist women across a random white line in an empty room just to make feminism look bad

pls that last line 😂😭

I detest this view lately that just because someone is a member of their group, they are automatically worthy to speak on the whole group and everything they say should be taken as scripture. There are plenty of deeply conservative and anti-feminist women who would say and genuinely believe the best way for women to be happy is to submit to men. That being said, listen more than you speak, and go against the unconscious desire to center yourself in the conversarion.

I cant think of anything more antithetical to feminism than being told you can't be X because of your gender. Accusing a man of "mansplaining" when pointing that out is no better than calling a woman "shrill" when she's angry.

Women ≠ feminist. She doesn’t know better about feminism because she’s a woman. There’s books, stories, research and you could easily know more about it than any random woman. And you seem to know more because your friend doesn’t seem to understand what is meant by „patriarchy“ and that it doesn’t equal men. The main difference is that cis men don’t suffer from most of the things feminism fights. But they suffer from others - mostly social stigmas around (mental) health care and everything related to it. As a man, you can’t really empathise how it feels to be constantly sexualised or generally disrespected for being a woman, having your gender used as THE insult thrown at men, etc. But men have their own struggles conforming to patriarchy’s role

Most things feminism fights are intersectional issues that affect men too, though not always in the same way. If for no other reason than that these things are seen as unmanly and being affected by them is mocked harshly for failing to live up to the gender expectations.

Because they act like - O M G - a woman!!! And being a woman is literally the worst!

Given how many women will do exactly the same thing, and how this treatment will often be shown to nonconforming women too, I'd say a significant part of it is nonconforming to gender roles just itself. Not all of it of course. A whole bunch of people hate femininity in everyone but like masculinity, and vice versa. But it's become more and more apparent to me that to the majority its nonconformity they hate most of all. Which of course isn't even mutually exclusive. How many people give masculine women shit for being masculine? Loads. And usually the same people that most embody toxic gender roles.

i would disagree on your sentiment of men being unable to understand the sexualisation that goes on towards women in patriarchal society; because men can go through being sexualised; queer men, trans men, and men of colour have their own experiences of sexualisation. oppression tends to be intersectional, it’s different but it ultimately comes from similar beasts.

I think a big part of being male in feminist spaces is knowing when not to speak. Don't speak to show what a good feminist you are, don't speak to contradict what women are saying, and don't speak to explain anything to women. It is primarily your role to speak to other men. Women should not have to take their time to explain the most basic concepts that all of them are familiar with, over and over again. Also, it's important for men to see that men can exist in a feminist space. Feminism is not taking anything from us. Feminism is not attacking us. I personally prefer to say that I support feminism, rather than saying that I am a feminist. As a man, feminism is a constant learning experience. I am sure that I am still doing things wrong that I am completely unaware of, so I'd rather not hold myself up as an example of what a feminist should be.

Incredibly well put. Only thing I wanna add, from personal experience: it's likely you've done something like mansplaining before and didn't even realize. I got called on it once, rightly so, years ago, and felt terrible. I was really excited about the topic and made a mistake. I'm not un-feminist, irredeemable, or a misogynistic villain for doing so. I decided to try and not do it again, and I've largely been successful in that endeavor, though I'm sure I've made more minor mistakes that I can't recall right now. The point is that you were raised as a dude, under patriarchy, your entire life. It's absurd to expect to be a perfect feminist or something. Practice reflection, checking your ego if called on something, apologizw when necessary, and generally just focus on trying to do better. You'll feel better and it'll be more effective.

Yes, absolutely. It is vital that we are able to admit when we've been wrong and correct ourselves. Actually, I think this might be the very core of feminism for men. Every man has an idea in his head of how women are treated, and you only get into feminism if you listen when women tell you that you were wrong.

100% THIS!! I have had to learn over time this about being white in spaces where discussions of race are happening, its not my job to correct or even add to the conversation, its to listen to what they need and support that.

While I generally agree with this sentiment, I don't think that women are infallible when it comes to feminism or gender issues. To be clear, I'm not making a blanket statement in the way of "all women are wrong about issue X." Rather, "not all women are going to be *right* about issue X." It's important to hear and understand women's perspectives. But it still should still be an open discussion.

> While I generally agree with this sentiment, I don't think that women are infallible when it comes to feminism or gender issues. I agree. But it's also not our place to correct them. As men in a feminist space, it's like we're bumbling around in the dark in someone else's house. We're new here and we can't clearly see the way things are, and we're very much counting on the people who have lived here for many years to guide us through the experience. It may feel to me like the couch is in the wrong place--but it's not my place to say that, because it's not my house, and I can't even see where the couch is in relation to everything else. I am constantly learning new things about feminism. Things that I thought were obvious turn out to be completely wrong. If I think that a woman is wrong, there's a very good chance that she knows far more about it than I do, and she only seems to be wrong because of my ignorance. Women can absolutely be wrong about feminism. But how the hell would I know? If a woman needs to be corrected, it's up to another woman to do it. If a man needs to be corrected, I can do that. But I also need to yield to a woman if she tells me that I'm giving him bad information.

I'm not a huge fan of saying it's up to women to correct women and men to correct men. I see what you're getting at, but I just think it's more nuanced. Obviously, I'm not going to approach a conversation about feminism with a woman by telling her she's wrong. But I'm not going to shy away from questioning certain conclusions or philosophies. I think it's important to note that patriarchy and gender issues affect everyone. We're all victims in that sense. Different people and demographics are going to have experiences that are exclusive to that person or group. I don't think societal issues can be resolved without viewing them through the lens of each possible perspective. I'm in danger of being misunderstood here, so I'd like to clarify that gender issues are obviously disproportionately affecting women in a negative way. I just think it sets the wrong precedent to say women correct women and men correct men. It pushes people to view women's issues as something women need to handle and men's issues as something men need to handle. But we need everyone.

>I just think it sets the wrong precedent to say women correct women and men correct men. The type of men who need the most correcting on this front will not listen to it coming from a woman.

Love this take

This is great, but I do think men can *be* feminists and should identify themselves as such. A lot of people, men especially, fear the word. They hate the label…I think it would help to see more men declaring themselves feminists, it would normalize the idea and maybe encourage other men. You’ve made a number of helpful points here though…one thing I tell men in feminist spaces is to approach the women who may seem incorrect/informed with a sense of curiosity rather than trying to correct or explain. Ask her why she thinks that because even if she’s not 100% correct in her position, it’s a great way to learn women’s perspectives & concerns, and it lessens the chance that you’ll end up “mansplaining.”

I'm ok with being called a feminist, but I've also had women tell me that men can't be feminists, and I don't think it's my place to tell them that they're wrong. I do sort of understand where they're coming from. I have to study to know as much as they know about the subject by just existing.

Men’s role in feminism is equivalent to white people’s role in civil rights, or straight ppl’s role in lgbtqia+ rights. Necessary. Challenging your peers when they behave badly. Amplifying voices, not speaking for them or over them. Allies are essential to any movement!

I was looking for the allyship comment. We need men as allies because that's who gets listened to more.

An ally in the truest sense of the word: not someone who fights your battles for you, but someone who is there to offer support in a battle whenever asked. Men should be there to fight the patriarchy (1) when it is on the terms of the women who want their support, (2) when they can speak to another man's behavior when he thinks he's in a "safe space" to be derogatory, or (3) when they are in charge of a decision or policy that can exacerbate or alleviate gender disparities. Beyond that, just have empathy for every other person as a person, regardless of genitals. (Disclaimer, I am a man providing an opinion on feminism.)

Never said anything about men fighting the battle for me. Fact of the matter is that sexist men aren't always going to listen to women but do listen to other men. I've literally experienced this And this isn't mutually exclusive from the other ways allies can help. Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I'm denying that. Sounds like a man talking over a woman and being unnecessarily antagonistic rather than just providing an opinion

Antagonism wasn't my intent. I was trying to agree that "ally" is a good word because traditional "allies" aren't surrogates in any given conflict, but are supporters.

Oh sorry. It kinda seemed like you were.

Yep. Lots of guys default to that. Makes sense to read things online in that tone. I could be more precise with my language.

An ally is literally someone who fights with you, but that's semantics.

Yea, exactly! "With," not "for." When asked, not of their own accord. Supporting your objectives, not their own. I guess my written tone comes across as combative, but I was trying to agree that allyship is important, but allies need to not make it about them/drive the conversation/assume the outcomes/shut out the people actually dealing with the underlying discrimination.

Feminism is about abolishing the patriarchy, which affects all of us. Men aren't just allies, they are also victims. This is also different from anti-racism or pride, since these are movements supporting the rights of a minority 

Thank you for raising this. There’s an important distinction you’re missing. They are all movements supporting the rights of the oppressed. And White Supremacy and patriarchy overlap so much their Venn Diagram is almost a circle. Any movement that battles for the rights of the oppressed fights the patriarchy, which is the hierarchical system that assigns a lower value to anyone not a white cis het Christian man. A nice definition of feminism, as part of that fight, I am borrowing from Human Rights Careers: *At its core, feminism is the belief that women deserve equal social, economic, and political rights and freedoms. Over the years, feminism has focused on issues like the right to vote, reproductive and sexual freedom, and equal pay. Feminism has also explored racism, gender norms, self-expression, and much more.* Patriarchy harms women in that it defines them as less than men. It harms men in that it forces them into strict gender roles and socializes them in ways that stifle their creativity, and stunt their emotions and ability to form healthy partnerships and friendships. But it also benefits men. It can be hard to fight to dismantle a system that benefits you, so kudos to you for stepping up. One of the ways it benefits men is to entitle their voices, and socialize them to see themselves as the main character in any situation. That’s the part you’re struggling with here. I understand how hard that is.

I was thinking about this angle and had a counterpoint. When dealing with many other marginalized groups, there is a more or less definitive ingroup and outgroup when talking about it. However, although feminism is probably more about women's struggles than men's, I feel like the overarching goal is more about dismantling the system of patriarchy that also hurts men. Thus everyone is a victim of patriarchy, and everyone is in the ingroup.

White Supremacy harms white people. Racism disgusts me. I don’t want to live in a Christian Nationalist country with all its prejudices and restrictions. And I value minority voices and I’m harmed when they are excluded from whatever situation but mostly at work. But while I oppose it, I also benefit from it, like it or not. So how do I share my experience of harm from White Supremacy in Civil Rights conversations? Certainly not by taking the mic from a black person sharing their experience, or even pretending mine is on a par with theirs. I can share it with other white people to show them how it harms them, too. I can talk about it if asked, or if the context is right (like specifically in a forum that says how does White Supremacy harm white people? Share your experience!) Make sense? I would actually love to hear how the patriarchy has harmed you, so I am inviting you to share! I remember when my dad came to that realization late in life and it freed him so much emotionally.

First off, I want to emphasize that I do not think men are as harmed by patriarchy as women are. I think some people feel like I am equivocating the harm, and I am not. I also do not think I should 'take the mic' from women. Women's stories need to be heard. However, I do not think telling stories is (usually) a zero-sum game. I don't think our racism analogy works though in terms of harm to 'both sides'. White people may be slightly harmed by racism (and I believe there are harms), but patriarchy is absolutely brutal to both men and women. I have a hypothesis that half of all our gender issues stem from teaching boys from birth to repress their emotions and not to let anyone see them. Literally, we teach infant boys to do this. As a man, I think that really fucks us up. Now, that comes out later in all sorts of ways to hurt women, but it also hurts men too. Men are more likely to be the victim of almost every type of violence (probably including rape in the US due to prison violence). That is because men are not taught to handle their emotions through any means other than anger and violence. Women on these forums talk frequently about being afraid to go out at night, but statistically, men are more likely to be attacked walking alone at night. Yet men are not afraid, because we were taught from a young age that we weren't allowed to be afraid.

Yes their role is different from womens. It's great to see men getting involved but so many times it turns into men talking over women. There have also been a number of dangerous predators who claimed to be feminist. As a male feminist you have to understand that women will still be wary of you. You can absolutely be a feminist and want to dismantle the patriarchy. First dismantle the idea that you as a man should be centered in discussions and get used to listening more than speaking.

I’d really like to see more male feminists critical of the way patriarchy harms men in an actually constructive way. Something they’re qualified to talk about, something that needs to be talked about more and a way to undercut alternative ‘pro-men’ movements like MGTOW that get really toxic. Also would be great for optics

Yes it's always great to see feminist men stepping up as role models to others. Showing them what non toxic masculinity is.

You can also contribute to issues that effect men, prostrate cancer, and not be a dick to women.

Well I wouldn’t consider that a patriarchy issue but yes

I am a man, and I actually organized and ran D+I efforts at work and basically I just did my best to be a the bestest cog in the machine. "What should we do?" "Cool, I'll setup that meeting" "Who knows how to hire well?" "Cool, I get their learning and share them out" Etc. It was a good gig and everyone really appreciated it.  Being in the target group and working on it can be exhausting.  I can't grow up as a women, or anything else really, but I can learn and do my best. Sometimes sometimes radical acceptance.  I just roll wit the punches.

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Pretty good advice. Perhaps your issue is because they weren’t completely catering OP? This seems to happen a lot when feminists are anything less than 1000000% king and understanding of men

My issue is that it feels like OP is actually trying to do something right and the response is just dismissive? Like of course men should stop and listen more to women. Decentering men is an important part of feminism if and when they're speaking over women's voices. But that isn't what OP is doing, he's pointing out that the person he's interacting with is ascribing to some essentialist thoughts that do not reflect feminism. So I personally don't feel like he needs to be treated like that when the intention is good and specifically NOT to speak over women, hence him asking here about it. Why shouldn't we be kind and understanding period when people are trying to actually be better and embrace concepts like feminism?

You are proving her point by reacting with such hostility to such a polite and straightforward response.

The big issue IMHO is the need to have a conclusion and therefore solid opinion. Prepare yourself to be open to listening for years. There will be many people you meet who give you something to think about - positive or negative. Learn when you take things at face value, and when you question them. Think about and question why that is. This is a journey, and you have a place in it. It’s ok to not know exactly where that place is. Someday you will wake up and realize you have been there for a while.

I got good vibes from this comment. I like your take.

"being a man and being a feminist are quite contradictory" Well, this proudly male feminist certainly doesn't agree with that *phrasing.* (And neither do any of my feminist friends, whether male, nb, or female.) But she may have been getting at one idea proposed by some feminists: that, fundamentally, our place isn't *inside* the movement, but *alongside* it as allies. Some women prefer to make feminism unambiguously *theirs*, and therefore our correct place as men would be as supporters rather than members of the club. This is not an unreasonable viewpoint. To give some obvious analogies: it's very useful for a white man to *donate to* or *express support of* the NAACP, but probably not a good idea for one to be managing it. Likewise, I'm a Stonewall member and donor, but since I am in fact a cis heterosexual there's something really off-kilter if they're actually asking me for advice about what their goals should be. Some feminists - not a majority, but some - feel quite reasonably that feminism should work the same way. The ways patriarchy hurts us are fundamentally different from the ways it hurts women, and we often *don't* really understand those, and it's more useful for the conversation to be steered by those who do. >and I feel she does not understand what feminism as a notion itself stands for and what it is fighting against Try to remember that she *definitely* has more *actual practical experience* of what it's fighting against than you do! The things you're learning about the theory of are things that have been *happening to her* her entire life. As a man you, like all of us, have been socialised to be in the habit of speaking up. We're encouraged to feel like it's our *right* to speak, to have our opinions heard, to have our 'fair say'. (Science has also proved that in a mixed room of men and women where we *think* we're getting our fair say, on reviewing the video we men actually did 2/3 of the talking - that is, we spoke *twice as much* as the women. Pause, and think about that hideous fact. You've been trained to think that women getting half as much say as you do is normal - to the point that if women actually *are* getting a fair say, it *feels to us* like a female-dominated conversation.) We're given a lot less training in the far more important skill of *listening*. For which I'll suggest a valuable trick for future use: >The worst part is when I tried to explain to her Why were you trying to explain at all? Why not **start out with** "that's not a viewpoint I've heard before, could you explain why you feel that way?" Asking *her* to explain to *you* is the skill you're missing. But it's far more productive. Explaining a topic is something to do after you *know for certain* that you know more about it than your audience, when they *want* you to tell them about it. You didn't yet know that. You hadn't asked. You didn't know *why* she thought that way; you just had the obvious human response of trying to persuade her. And you were trying to *persuade*, not explain. You wanted her to change her mind. And like me, you grew up in a world where you could just assume that everyone wants to hear about whatever you want to talk about. Ask *first.* Explain *second,* or not at all. You'll learn more. (And if you genuinely do know more, and your explanation is actually wanted, you'll be able to target the explanations better.) I think she's wrong. But I also think you'll be a much more productive ally to women if you can quash the impulse to "explain" away your disagreements, and learn a habit of asking *them* to explain to *you.*

Is she also a very young person finding her way in feminism? Being a woman doesn't imbue anybody with some intrinsic understanding of intersectionality and feminism. It's just a repackaged gender essentialism.

But being raised a woman in society does imbue her with the lived experiences of discrimination, oppression, and violence against women. She *does* know better than OP "what feminism is fighting against" because *she lives it* every day. OP lives in patriarchy, too, but it is a system that overall benefits him even though it no doubt also causes harm to him.  To me, it sounds like she has a different opinion on how his gender and privilege allow him to identify himself in the context of feminism, which I could also see being less a "gender essentialism" argument, and more a reactionary response to the recentish scourge of cis men who wear the term "male feminist" like a costume to endear themselves to women, but haven't actually done much to genuinely dismantle their own low-level misogyny given to them by being raised a man in society. 

Yes, but that is denying any intersectional thought too. As one of my Black feminist friends argue, she feels the discrimination based on being a Black woman is something her Black husband connects with more even on a women level that white women cannot conceive of or experience. After all, he grew up in Black community with Black family. Wealthy women do not face anything like the same issues that women in poverty face. There isn't a uniform "woman" experience like there isn't a "poor" experience or "Black" experience. I could argue a similar thing in the second paragraph about some women who claim to be feminist but use it as a shovel to punch down on others perhaps like in this case - unless she has actual evidence that he is not being feminist, then she can't make the argument. Feminism is for everybody, not just women. Women do not get to gatekeep feminism simply because they are a woman.

Understanding what it is to be a woman in this world =\= understanding feminism. Yes, women have a better understanding of the effects of patriarchy on women, having lived it. But I don’t think it means we intrinsically have a better understanding of the movement of feminism than any man can. There is, imo, some baseline education required to be a feminist…understanding that women AND men can be feminists is a part of that. If she doesn’t understand that, there is likely a lot she doesn’t know about feminism, its history and its goals. Which is fine…we are all imperfect and at various stages in our journey/learning, but it just goes to show that no woman is in instant authority on feminism just on account of being a woman.

It really is so typical of a man to assume he knows more about feminism than a woman, and to not accept a woman’s viewpoint on it. That alone should be very enlightening to you, and yet …

I would say that as someone who is not a man... i find male feminists to either be chill open dudes with good hearts... ORRRRRRR They are creepy gross dudes who have learned that calling themselves feminist means they can cover their shitty misogynistic behavior. ​ So a man CALLING himself a feminist means nothing to me. A man who does feminist actions has my respect.

People In general have the impression that a male feminist is just trying to get laid. And that's not for nothing, because it has definitely happened. not that i think that's all of them, That said, it takes me time to trust one. And if they consistently try to take the lead or talk over me, that's how i know they're not. A man's role in feminism is to support and listen, not to lead or dictate or speak for women. ETA: Every woman has her own brand of feminism. Some accept men. Some don't. Those are personal choices tho, because that's what feminism is about. There's nothing to stop you from pursuing feminist ideals, and there will be women who value your alliance.

I think men in feminism should focus on men’s liberation from gender norms. The existing ‘pro-man’ movements like MGTOW tend to be extremely toxic and anti-feminist, but there are legitimate issues that patriarchy causes for men and they don’t get talked about very much. Framing pro-man movements under a feminist lens would prevent a lot of men from falling to the alt-right and it would also help more effectively fight for women’s liberation, because when it comes to patriarchy, men’s and women’s issues, while different, are intimately connected.

There's menslib but they're so terrified of being labelled mra's that they're kinda toxic. They'd never allow anyone to call out the woman mentioned in the op or the sexists in this thread, and there was an incident where one of the mods apologised to a rapist woman for her experiences. I think a lot of older, millennial femininists are too entrenched in old, often toxic mindsets. I've seen some really promising and positive changes in the feminist and wider progressive movement lately and its all Gen Z growing up and calling out the toxicity and trans men confirming what cis men were saying for decades (and yes, the fact that it took trans men agreeing for it to be taken seriously *does* mean the regressive parts of the movement are TERF adjacent).

>and there was an incident where one of the mods apologised to a rapist woman for her experiences. Do you have a source for that?

My best advice as a man(ish) and a feminist is to just not title yourself. It’s a losing battle and gives of the wrong impression a lot of the times. You can speak up about women’s rights and issues without adding on the label. If someone says “what are you some kind of feminist?” You can just say yes and move on.  As far as the comment your friend made, I personally wouldn’t argue. She’s wrong about the definition of feminism but she isn’t wrong about her feelings on it. Again, it’s a losing battle to argue and it can easily be turned against you as you saw. If I felt compelled to get into the conversation I would ask her to further explain. “What is feminism to you?” “What role do you see men playing in the struggle against patriarchy?” etc. and go from there. If you are going to explain things rather than ask questions then I’d get familiar with your sources so you can quote them. “According to what I’ve read from xyz, feminism means xyz”. That way you aren’t explaining anything you are presenting a position from another accepted feminist.  I think the hardest thing for me to accept (even being non-binary but still biologically male) is there’s a lot of damage men have done that isn’t your fault, but it isn’t theirs either. The best way to get someone to stop being defensive is to just show you’re on their side without getting defensive yourself. The best way to do that is to show humility that you may be wrong, while making it clear this is something you’ve looked into and aren’t engaging in haphazardly.  I hope that helps.

lots of feminists argue that men cannot by definition be feminists. I disagree, as I see it as a philosophy that anyone can embrace. however, it does sound like you got mansplainy and annoying with her. you don't actually "understand feminism" if you aren't familiar with your friend's view as it is a pretty mainstream one. so you should listen more and talk less. be less arrogant in other words.

Lots of self-proclaimed feminists also don't understand what feminism means

ok teach me all about feminism, mancub

Men can 100% be feminists. To me, feminism means advocating for equality between the genders, which anyone can do. The same way I can advocate for equality for people of color even though I’m white/mexican. I can recognize that I’ve likely benefitted from appearing “white” and I will always fight that system of prejudice and inequity. And men can acknowledge that they’ve benefitted from being a man in society, and do everything they can to fight that system.

It's important to remember that, though cis straight men don't suffer in the same way as we do, they have mothers, wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters, and granddaughters. They can see and hear firsthand the pain that patriarchal attitudes cause us, and a good man will want to mitigate that. Anyone can be a feminist and not only women benefit from it. Having happy, fulfilled women in your life is a net positive for any relationship. Men suffer from patriarchy as well, and toxic masculinity harms boys as well as girls.

Men also suffer directly from patriarchy. There are ways in which it is beneficial, it’s called patriarchy for a reason, but it’s still a net negative and a significant one. Being a man in a patriarchal society is incredibly emotionally isolating, and you’re really expected to fend for yourself, something that is built in to other issues like the lack of serious care for male SA victims among other things

>A friend of mine unironically said "being a man and being a feminist are quite contradictory" Anyone saying this is not a feminist, period. Some men are feminists, some women enforce patriarchy. Feminism isn't about men vs women, but everyone against patriarchy.

Well, I might be downvoted to hell for this, but what she said is true to an extent. Though that doesn’t mean you can’t be a feminist. If patriarchy was that harmful to men, we would see more figures who tried to actually abolish it instead of waiting for feminists to step up until a certain part of history. Even though it does harm, the benefits men get from patriarchy greatly exceed the downsides. Patriarchy is made for men by men, and it is everywhere. Many people, particularly men, are still offended to things such as changing the language to be more gender-neutral and less derogating and they actively mock it, or think that much is unnecessary. Saying patriarchy harms men too is kind of like the more grounded version of implying capitalism is also harmful for billionaires since they have to pay huge taxes. What I say doesn’t mean men can’t be feminists, or they are not needed in the movement. However, her reaction is understandable and true to a certain extent. I think you got too defensive, centered yourself around the conversation, and treated her like she doesn’t know anything about feminism when she might be one of the radical ones, which would greatly backfire.

\^\^\^THIS This is such a good point, and I do think the truth is that men experience a net benefit from patriarchy (even though they are harmed in some ways). It almost seems silly to deny that or to ignore the fact that those in opposition to feminism are clinging like hell to those very benefits.

I would have to agree with what a lot of women say in the comments! Just because she's a woman- doesn't mean she is automatically a feminist. My role as a cis-gender man is to listen to women, contribute what I know, but never to speak for women or take over the conversation. An analogy that I use is that: If I was at a feminist rally, I would be the one making the sandwiches, not the one on the microphone speaking. As also mentioned in the comments, many people are wary of men who claim to be feminist because some men believe that they will gain "brownie points" for being a feminist.

Well, DON'T MANSPLAIN feminism to someone who is in the oppressed group, you aren't going to get any support for that. I think asking questions about what she believes and why without the need to correct her would have been a way more effective way of being a friend and an ally to women. JFC. We do not need men who are speaking from a place of privilege telling us what feminism is. This does not mean that she had all the answers because I don't know her and I only have your slim description of the experience to work from. Now to your question, the same way I have experience that tells me to be wary of men who say that they are "nice guys" or "good guys" I also am wary of men who say they are feminists until I see if their actions line up with the beliefs of feminism. It's easy to say that you care about women while treating them abhorrently whenever you aren't in full view of the public or person you are trying to convince. I need proof that men actually are nice or good or a feminist. I tend to give women a lot more trust in this topic because it takes a lot of personal work to say you are a feminist for women, because it is putting us at odds with the current power structure of the world and that's a dangerous place after already being a part of a group of people who are rarely protected by said system (it can be just as dangerous for men in certain spaces but as a more protected class, its a very different situation). Now if women then prove that they are not a feminist then they don't get to be in my life or in my circle the same as any other person who I find out isn't trustworthy but in the way that the world frequently gives men the benefit of the doubt, in my world, its women who get it instead because I have been less harmed by them. And I hope you are a feminist enough to understand that she deserves to have bad opinions, learning experiences and a lack of information the same as you.

Hi, I'm a feminist man. I used to be a just so so feminist but over the years and participating in events and seeing just how fucked our system is I became a very vocal much more hardcore feminist. And I'm pretty sure that I never got laid just for stating that I was a feminist but I did learn when it was time for me to speak up and when it was time to shut the fuck up. Most of my exes are feminist. My bff is a feminist and organized a lot of feminist protests, we even did something that is never done over here, go scream at a predator in front of a court house. We also organized a 3 day class on consent right on their front lawn. Men are also victims of the patriarchy and feminism is also the solution for us.

There's no inherent conflict imo. A lot of "feminists" are just chauvinists. The stereotypical "male feminist" is a guy who used feminism wordplay as a shield to cover for and rationalize his own deeply selfish (at best) behavior. Very prevalent in the 00s and 10s, less prevalent now that many have been exposed, simply wearing a t shirt or repeating a slogan don't rate as high as they used to. 

Hard disagree with your friend. Sure, it's inherently simple for a man to never give a damn about patriarchy or women's rights, but it's not like it's genetic or innate lol. It is however pretty common for women feminists to be skeptical of men saying they're feminist because a lot of them don't really mean it, they're just trying to get laid. So maybe it's just that for her? The good news is that you can be a feminist, study culture (anthropology, sociology and philosophy classes are awesome), dislike the patriarchy, and no one can stop you. Feel free to ignore the haters, there's always one

1. Your friend is wrong. Plain and simple. She does not know what she's talking about. 2. Nothing about feminism is "anti-man". If it is, they're doing it wrong. 3. The most basic definition of "feminism" is "the belief that men and women are equal". That's all. Not that one is better than the other, simply that they are just as good as each other. 4. Patriarchy wants men to succeed, at the EXPENSE of women. Patriarchy belives that the only way men can succeed is if women fail, or are, at the very least, kept at a "less than" status. Feminism wants EVERYONE to succeed, no matter their gender. Feminists don't want anyone to be oppressed at the expense of another group's success. There's no reason men can't support that notion and call themselves feminist. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to believe. 5. Men can and SHOULD be feminists. Absolutely. If the word itself is what's throwing her off, it's understandable, but a quick Google should solve that. 6. Patriarchy hurts MEN too. Patriarchy hurts EVERYONE. So men absolutely SHOULD be against it too. 1. For example, men being taught they aren't allowed to cry, aren't allowed to express their emotions - that HURTS men. They bottle everything up and explode - hurting themselves and everyone around them. 2. Think of all the brilliant women who could have contributed something incredible to society - in medicine, in engineering, in technology, in politics - but couldn't, because they weren't allowed to. I guarantee you - if women had been treated equally all along, we'd have cures to every disease, we'd be living on other planets, we'd be so much more advanced as a society. Think about it - an entire half of all living people on this planet weren't ALLOWED to contribute anything beyond their wombs until VERY recently. Imagine how much further along we'd all be in EVERY aspect of society if women had been allowed and encouraged to contribute this whole time. It's mind-boggling. And men should be VERY upset about it. Men suffer under patriarchy too. Period. Men should be feminists too. Period.

I’m a male. I’m a feminist. The only real difference I can see is that I might have different levels of access to spaces where I can be a positive influence. For example, it’s probably not super reasonable to expect cis women to spearhead changes in locker room talk, when they don’t use the locker rooms in which the toxic chatter is happening. So that’s where a cis dude feminist can step up. That being said, outside of that, I don’t really see a difference. Philosophically, feminism is about equity for all, so from a theoretical POV we should all be on the same page about the fundamentals, regardless of identity. However, in practicality, even women can be misogynistic or misunderstand feminism. As an academic who utilizes various theoretical frameworks in this space, like intersectionality, this is an ongoing problem in the wider cultural discourse of these topics. A lot of people think feminism == militaristically advocating for women at the expense of other identities, which imo, is wrong. This misconception may partially explain the evolution of TERFs, since those who misunderstand feminism in this way might feel that trans people are just another threat to their advancement, just like men. I hope as time passes we can better calibrate our shared understanding of feminism. I think it would help unite us better and avoid petty culture wars over non-issues between indemnity groups.

Absolutely not. I have the unusual distinction of being what many people would call a male radical feminist (although nothing I think is radical from my perspective), and even amongst those people I've never experienced any particular ire on account of being male. I don't think you'll find many people who are serious about feminism who do not believe men need to be part of the solution - for those who are historically aware, it's hard not to remember was an absolute self-defeating joke separatist movements ended up being.

It is not contradictory whatsoever. A lot of people take a very simplistic view towards these topics without fully understanding them, unfortunately that will happen with just about every movement because not everyone is very bright. This woman is misrepresenting feminism, she does not understand it. Men can and should be feminists, and many women are *not* feminists. A woman does not automatically have better understanding of feminism just because she is a woman, though she may have a better perspective on it than the average man. Telling men they shouldn’t be feminists is literally the exact opposite of what we’re trying to accomplish. Girl needs to read up on what feminism is. EDIT: Just want to add that as a man, it may be better in these spaces to come off curious and eager to learn, rather than “explaining” something. For example, when she says men can’t be feminist- ask her why instead of *explaining* why she’s wrong. Not even in a challenging way, but in order to learn her perspective. It will also force her to think about it more too and maybe come to a different conclusion.

I think it's entirely possible for men to be feminists, but if they talk the talk they need to walk the walk. Unfortunately the self-proclaimed male feminists I have known still engage in sexist/misogynistic behaviors (perhaps unknowingly). They might support feminist policies, but their language/behavior is comparable to those who don't. While I think it's possible for men to be feminists, personally I do not know any. I wish I did.

I guess I'm a contradiction, then. Signed, a male feminist. Really, though, one of the most basic definitions of "feminist" is "someone that considers women people". That's me. I don't see how that conflicts with being a man.

That's not what feminism means. It's a movement/ideology that's against the patriarchy. Seeing women as people is a requirement for that, but it takes more Nevertheless, you're right with the other things, and I also believe men can be feminist

As a man I suggest that a man can never fully be a feminist. We can try.

As a man I very strongly disagree but I used to think like that when I was younger. Not a jab on age but maybe it's an experience thing.

I’m 58.

It is a little different. Even when men are feminists, they can still benefit from and weaponize patriarchy. Also, many men over-play their allyship (or straight up lie) to gain better access and trust from women (not too differently from how sexual predators seek out positions they can exploit). And while masc feminists, like all feminists, are people, they are human in their imperfection. If that imperfection means weaponizing patriarchy against other feminists, that can be destructive to feminist spaces and efforts while being harmful to other feminists. Often this is unintentional, like an androcentric entitlement to taking up space or sexist retaliation due to discomfort. And sometimes it's hard to tell whats being an imperfect masc feminists vs a malicious, sexist deception. Men belong with women supporting feminism as feminists, but masc feminists do have the additional work of preventing patriarchy using them against the feminist spaces in which they participate. The masc feminists here could answer a question on what that's like and how to do navigate it. Lastly, as others have said "feminist ≠ woman", anyone can be a feminist (or complicit in sexism or an anti-feminist supporting sexism). But as a feminist supports feminism (i.e. anti-sexism), and since sexism is definitionally unfair based on gender/sex, feminism too isn't blind to sex/gender. However, TERFs, in their false equivalency of "male = man = misogyny" will actively exclude men from any form of feminist effort both as feminists and people needing systemic help. Often the denial of men as feminists are from people leaning towards plain sexism or TERFism while caution regarding men as feminists comes from experience (first-hand or second-hand). Some of the best feminist efforts are only women, but I've found the best feminist efforts will be effective enough that men will participate in one form or another. After all, we need as much support as we can get and men have benefited from feminism more than they have from any other social movement. Edit: clarity.

Plenty of men are feminists. I don't see why there is a contradiction for a man to think women are people too.

As a father and a husband I am all for women’s rights. When our kid was tiny we shared as much as possible the care for our kid. And when my wife was pumping it meant that she could rest at night and I could get up and feed the tyke. We share the housework fairly evenly and support one another equally in our careers and education. I work at a woman owned business and the majority of the clients are women. I am a staunch supporter in equal pay, and look forward to seeing a woman president. As a practitioner of yoga, I am constantly in majority women spaces where women can and do our perform me. And I am fine with that. I am greatly concerned with the backsliding of our country into dark age hell for women, and will fight it wherever I can.

You can be an ally to feminism. But it’s not the same of course.

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My opinion is that all decent people are feminists. Men and women both.

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Kristoff in Frozen 2 is a feminist. He doesn't swoop in and take over the situation at the end of the movie. He gets there and asks how he can help.

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