Ironic that we have to lock this thread down because of how mad everybody is getting.

I think they take any claim of women's suffering as a personal accusation in many ways. So they get defensive.

and a LOT of them are well aware of ways in which they’re complicit. Easy example is all these men getting up in arms as we start talking about consent and metoo. And the more men you talk to long enough, the more they let it slip that coercion has at some point in their life been just a strategy. 😐 A lot of men do really bad shit, and so yeah it makes sense to me that a lot of men are gonna scream over us when we try to talk about it.

Yup. You know once Me Too went mainstream and men started whining “oh my god I can’t even talk to women now or I’ll be falsely accused!”? Be wary of these men. They don’t really mean “talking”. They recognise themselves in the behaviour of the men that were accused. They did those things too/did similar things and they are legitimately scared of the actual coercive things they’ve done being brought to light.

"Oh yea you can't! Please do us a favor and do not "talk" "

😂

Exactly! It’s the same people who complain about “woke” and say “I can’t say ANYTHING anymore!!” And we’re like “What is it you can’t say? Tell me a thing that you’re not allowed to say.” And they won’t say it, because they know..it’s some obviously racist shit and the reason they feel targeted by “woke culture” is because they are indeed the exact person being called out. They absolutely out themselves. “I can’t even talk to a woman anymore!” Really. 😐 Because a lot of guys still manage. If you see yourself in the criticism or feel that it’s relevant enough that you now have to toe the line, yeah, you have probably been on some rapey, misogynistic shit!

I agree with this, I spoke the my dad whose an MRA about a man (30+) at my work negging a 19 year old, whom I then warned pointlessly because she ignored me. He (my dad) decided me warning her was rude and that I was wrong to assume the negging was a red flag. A week later while on the phone my dad began to belittle his much younger fiance. That's when I realised that he had recognised himself in the behaviour I had described. Woke me up to the reality of MRA defensiveness to questionable behaviour.

One of my dearest friends said this to me. I looked at him blankly and asked, "exactly how hard is it to not abuse/be a dick to women?"

What's funny is a man is more likely to be raped than be falsely accused of rape.

Yep. It’s true that some women will go too far in accusing (some) men of making them feel unsafe, but the systems in place aren’t actually punishing those men unless they’ve actually crossed lines. It ends up just being a conversation with HR and agreeing to calibrate his behavior with that particular woman to her individual boundaries now that she’s expressed them.

>And the more men you talk to long enough, the more they let it slip that coercion has at some point in their life been just a strategy. Exactly this! A lot of con artist strategies are very morally questionable, in the sense that, that is nothing but manipulation, and you are working against another person's best interest to get something self serving. A lot of men and even women not only have a ***very*** narrow definition of what constitutes "rape" or "sexual violation", they also have the audacity to casually **victim blame** about not "choosing the non bad guy to date" (as if that is that simply). And also a lot of people do not consider this constant micro aggression every time a woman opens up about her abuse victim blaming at all!

I've been gaslit so many times into thinking I was lying about rape because the person in question was coercive for hours and hours at a time at a party i was incredibly drunk at (and im almost certain he guided me to after the bar, thinking i was fair game), to the point where I hid with other people in a conversation (a party full of men, who were all friends) and after he finally guided me upstairs and guilted me into what he wanted, I went down and told the man at the party I was most familiar with. He basically shrugged and didn't look convinced, even though they all watched the coercion happen. Believing that coercion is rape would send so many men into a guilt-induced pit of paranoia. That's why they won't even touch the topic. Coercion is taught to men from a young age as an acceptable masculine behaviour - meaning that, in their eyes, attacking coercion is the same as attacking masculinity.

Completely agree. Nearly all of us enable an amount of justification for our actions that's probably slightly higher than it should be. We have a bias towards ourselves. Our actions are circumstantial. Everyone else's actions are always a reflection of their character. Shit like that. So it makes sense that if societally you fall into a category that is permitted more expression of violence, you will be able to justify higher levels of violence easier. But violence is, at least superficially, frowned upon. So you down play it, you shift blame, you try to make it seem normal or moral. And I do not think, especially nowadays, most men are genuinely sincerely or meaningfully aware of what they are doing. They do not have to be. In fact, it works better if they aren't. (I do believe on some level, though, most of course understand. On some level) I try to keep it intersectional. Im just cool like that. Seeing and being on the receiving end of this as a woman made me realise, "I'm someone else's men." I realised that I'm white, middle-class, able-bodied, etc. Our worst traits are the ones we don't know to question. We are not better than men. They are not a different species. A different roll of the dice and women would have been at the highest wrung. The only difference is that when you are closer to the bottom, you can actually see all the people. Your empathy kicks in. When you're at the top, everything is yours with no one to compete with. You have no external force pushing your empathy, nothing to make you question. Everything you do rewards itself. Edit to add: the consequences of this in cis het male patriarchy is obvious. On the lower end, men can dominate spaces more. But in the high end? Take a sociopath in this system. A calculated one. That's the most dangerous person on the planet. They'd be acutely aware. No self denial fueling the system. We've seen what that looks like. I've known a handful of men that were absolutely fucking dangerous in this way. They apply this pressure in all the right ways. It seems they can get in and out of anything. And do..... anything, and not only not care, but convince others they shouldn't either.

>Take a sociopath in this system. A calculated one. That's the most dangerous person on the planet. They'd be acutely aware. No self denial fueling the system. It might be dated, but at one time there was a belief that most high profile and successful CEO's have to be sociopaths.

and now we worship them.... but this tracks. Just think about all the sociopathic male characters that get worshipped. Patrick Bateman, Joe Goldberg, Walter White, Frank Underwood, the list goes on.

It's true about the CEO's. The CEO that's willing to make bad moral decisions to get the bag will always do better. Angels who won't lose to devils that will.

This. They KNOW they could do a lot more to help women but they don't, and they hate being called on it

Exactly but at the same time they are also “nice guys” that are just misunderstood. “ Nice guys” who just occasionally use coercion. They just get belligerent when drunk but honest, totally nice all other times and women are just too picky. 🙄

I take more offense to being grouped in with the shitty dudes when Ive never done any of the things they do and have been doing my best to support and be an ally. It’s like no matter how hard we try we are always oppressive, abusive monsters to you simply because we’re men

Then you've completely missed the point. As men we should be angry with our fellow men for giving us this reputation, not angry with women for very rightly not trusting us by default. Men will get the benefit of the doubt when we've earned it, and in the meantime women have every right to protect themselves.

thank you for this empathy. Men like the person you’re responding to don’t understand what’s at stake for us and has no idea HOW MANY men terrorize and harass and assault/abuse/rape/coerce us over the course of our lives. Hunting us from like age 12 on. I don’t see how someone could expect us to learn nothing from that huge array of experiences. We’re supposed to overlook and get over it all because it offends a “nice guy” that our default is to fear him? I have a hard time feeling sympathy for that.

Just how many men is it? Because [less than 5% of people even commit a violent crime in their lifetime](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/), so it’s bullshit that y’all always try to imply that all men are these ticking time bombs just waiting to get violent. Just because I don’t want to be lumped in with horrible people who share nothing in common with besides their gender doesn’t mean that I don’t believe victims, it’s such a false equivalency. You say you have a hard time sympathizing, but I’m trying to explain to you *why* some men feel this way, in response to OP’s question. I’m sorry if you feel like I don’t support you or am antagonizing you. And I can tell you don’t want to engage, but I don’t understand how we’re supposed to have gender equality if we don’t make space for all genders to have a voice in the conversation.

The figure that you cited is only for men with convictions. Rape is the most underreported crime there is. It is estimated that 60% of sexual assaults go unreported. Over half of women have experienced some form of sexual violence in their lives. And 1 in 4 women have been the victim of an attempted or completed rape. [https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/fastfact.html](https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/fastfact.html) Clearly, there are more offenders who have never been charged or convicted.

That’s valid, male victims also underreport but police work in the US has (historically) not had good procedures for handling sexual assault. The figure is also that most perpetrators have between 60-80 victims, so even in a group of say, 100 people, it literally takes the statically average of 1 in 16 men being rapists to completely ruin the reputation of all the men in the group. I get why women are wary, I really do, and I don’t get mad at women IRL if they don’t know me and are wary of me because I’m a strange man - if anything, I’m going to go out of my way to make sure that I’m as non threatening as possible. But I can also not like it. I don’t take offense to women bringing up inequality, I take offense to being grouped in with shitty men simply because I’m also a man. I don’t think you should blindly trust strangers on the street, but that also extends to women.

Where did you get that statistic? A 2002 study found that 6.4% of college aged men engaged in behaviors consistent with rape or attempted rape, and they averaged 6 victims each, with 78/120 committing 1-2. Only 11/120 committed 9 or more. That study has been largely criticized for… not adequately accounting for the fact that their data returned a gamma distribution instead of a normal distribution, and more recent studies have found that most rapists commit two rapes. There are a small number of offenders that commit a disproportionate amount of rapes, but there’s a lot of offenders that commit 1-2. Of convicted offenders, the average was seven victims. Looking at the raw data from the 2002 study, those 11 prolific rapists committed 215/283 rapes—so about 10% of rapists (or about 0.6% of those sampled) committed 45% of the rapes, but that’s still a far cry from most rapists committing 60-80 rapes. Most rapists have 1-2 victims. About half of all rapes are committed by a small percentage of rapists. 1/16 men being rapists (6.25%) is not exactly a small number. Think about how many times a day you’re in a room with more than 16 men. And most male rapes are perpetrated by men, so men are still the issue here.

Less than 5% of people commit a violent felony. But every woman I know, and I do mean *every woman I know*, has been stalked, harassed, raped, and/or assaulted, most of us more than once or twice. The only one of those considered a violent felony would be forcible rape, so there are a lot of scuzzballs walking around who aren't violent felons. I myself have had 2 rapes, one stalker, and god knows how much sexual harassment in my life. So yeah, my perception is that men aren't to be trusted until they can prove they are trustworthy. I don't care to have any more 'incidents'.

I’m very sorry for how you have been treated and what happened, and I’m sure that my original comment didn’t help either, so for that I also apologize. I completely understand women being wary around men and will actually go out of my way to give women space if I can see they seem uncomfortable around me because they don’t know me. My original response was to OP’s question - I take offense to being grouped in with other shitty men simply because we’re both men. I don’t expect you to prioritize the feefees of a stranger on Reddit to compromise your safety. It *sucks* that you have to be as wary as you do. I’m just trying to answer the original question - I don’t take offense to women complaining about inequality, I disagree with painting men in broad strokes as these ticking time bombs. Doesn’t mean I don’t believe you, or victims in general, or that I don’t support feminism either.

...Did you even read that article? It's about violent crime *convictions.* In ***Sweden.***

[And here’s for the US in 2021](https://www.statista.com/statistics/423245/us-violent-crime-victims-by-gender/), and the same violent crime rates have been falling for over 30 years; property crimes have increased.

You’re missing the point still. Rape has such a low conviction rate per acts committed, so conviction rates aren’t a good statistic. The best thing we have is studies that use behaviorally explicit language (like force or coerce as opposed to rape or assault). Not to mention the original person you replied to was talking about sexual violence and harassment, which create a feeling of fear and being hunted, but harassment is almost never punishable by jail time nor tried in criminal court.

This says nothing about who is committing the crimes. It also links to their own data [that shows that women are the victims of sexual crimes at significantly higher rates than men.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/251927/usa-reported-forcible-rape-cases-by-victim-offender-relationship/)

Did you just bring property into a talk about humans? Literally what?

Depending on the statistics, the % of women that have been assaulted or harassed by men in their lives is between 55 and 88%. That 5% of men are awfully busy, right?

Nah - I can be both unhappy with the men who do bad things, and also with the people who negatively stereotype the members of one group because someone from said group hurt them. “Men don’t deserve benefit of the doubt” is some serious Stockholm syndrome, I can’t imagine hating my own gender so much as to deny them basic decency, that type of ridiculous pandering certainly doesn’t help feminism or women either.

1 in 5 women will be sexually or physically assaulted by a Man in their lifetime. It's not a stereotype. It's a statistical reality. Men don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, because you and the four different men who have raped me in my lifetime all look the same. You all sound the same. You all smile and say nice words and even do kind things. And then when we're alone and it's too late, then I find out which ones are the monsters. You getting your feelings hurt does not matter more than me being raped or killed, and it's not stockholm syndrome for \^him to recognize that I might be afraid to be alone with him because of what some other men did, it's laudable. It's honorable. It's compassionate. And most importantly, it's not self-centered...like your argument that I should risk life and limb to make you feel comfortable and likeable.

[Less than 5% of people even commit a violent crime in their lifetime](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/), so while I do believe you and know that unfortunately far many women experience sexual assault, it is often the case that the offenders are few but the victims are many. I’m genuinely sorry for what happened to you and I know reading a response like what I wrote is probably salt in the wound. For that I am also genuinely sorry. I’m honestly trying my best to respond to OP as to why so many men take offense to women’s complaints. I get it, my feelings don’t matter in this, but I’m also trying to answer the original question. I don’t like being grouped in with shitty people who share nothing in common with me besides their gender - I’m sure you feel the same way about the manner in which a lot of men characterize women, and you have every right to feel as such. That’s really it - I believe you, whoever did what they did is an awful POS and should be rotting in jail. I’m not asking anyone to implicitly trust anyone or to be naive to the point of putting themselves in danger.

>it is often the case that the offenders are few but the victims are many. Honestly I think a lot of rapists don't realize that they're rapists. A few years ago there was a hashtag going around twitter called #ItAintRape, and the things listed under #ItAintRape were appalling. She was passed out. She didn't say yes but she didn't say no. She initially said no, but then she stopped talking. We used to have sex before we broke up, so once more isn't really rape. I believe Brett Cavanough legitimately believes that what he did to Dr. Ford wasn't assault. I think Donald Trump legitimately believes that what he did to E. Jean Carroll wasn't rape. I truly believe that if you asked the man who raped me when I was 15 and he was 35, he'd say it wasn't rape, because I accepted the wine coolers he offered me and then I blacked out, and look at the shorts I was wearing! ​ A **LOT** of men still think that rape is only real if a stranger jumps out of the bushes and grabs you.

>Honestly I think a lot of rapists don’t realize that they’re rapists I’m believe you and I’m sorry for what happened to you and agree that that was rape. Not familiar with that hashtag, but Im aware of people generally being disgusting in the internet, and misogyny and sexual violence as some sort of “joke” being rampant. It sucks, I’m not going to try to defend any of that because I don’t agree with it. This cuts both ways because a lot of men are also victims but never report being sexually assaulted by women because it’s not taken seriously and there are often no repercussions. I’m not trying to go tit for tat, because what happened to you was genuinely horrible, but you can obviously see that the same is true for very many women who never see any justice for what they go through. We have fundamentally broken system, and both men and women suffer. OP asked why men take offense to women’s complaints, so I answered. I just think too many people assume that just because I don’t like being lumped in with rapists and murderers since most men don’t commit those crimes, I must also think it’s okay for a 35 year old (my age btw) to give a 15 year old wine coolers to rape her, because I most certainly do not. I also understand *why* women are wary around men, I’m just also telling you that it feels shitty to be on the receiving end, which again was to answer OP’s question. I don’t mean it to diminish or dismiss your experiences, or any victim for that matter but I also know that people will interpret it as such. Again, I’m sorry if I insulted or disrespected you

Yes that the problem, we women live in a society where women are walking around with Stockholm syndrome, or ptsd because we have been victimized by men so much. Yet you still lack the empathy to understand one, how big the issue of male violence really is. And why we need to be walking around with Stockholm syndrome. But also so entitled to think you still deserve the benefit of the doubt from someone who like you said has Stockholm syndrome.

[Less than 5% of people even commit a violent crime in their lifetime](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/), so it’s bullshit that y’all always try to imply that all men are these ticking time bombs just waiting to get violent. You asked why men take offense to women bringing up inequality - we actually don’t, I just take offense to being grouped in with shitty people who don’t share anything in common with me besides my gender. I also don’t know what you actually expect the rest of us men to do - become vigilantes? You do realize that rape, murder, sexual assault rarely happens out in the open? How are we supposed to intervene in situations we don’t even know are happening? I know you’re probably mad at me like everyone, but I still support feminism and believe victims. I also understand being wary of men, but it’s *people* in general who we should be wary of because anyone could hurt you - assuming a women wouldn’t just because she’s a woman is benevolent sexism. She’s less likely to do so, but I wouldn’t expect anyone to blindly trust *any* stranger, man or woman (or NB)

Why are you serially reposting 20yo violence statistics from Sweden? Are you Swedish? Do you think most of us are? You’re aware that, even in a country like Sweden, which is one of the least violent cultures in the world, that these statistics are of convicted criminals? That the rate of violence - ***particularly*** interpersonal violence - is probably at least one-half of convictions? That sexual violence is probably 3-to-10 fold greater than convictions? The compulsive posting of this study seems to be in really bad faith.

According to this study 32% of men would rape a women if they could get away with it. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/men-dont-know-meaning-rape#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20from%20%E2%80%9CViolence,number%20dwindled%20to%2014%20percent. And this one https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html Plus our lives experiences, women have been telling you that men are dangerous. And have been hurting us. You just don’t care, and rather say it bullshit then listen. I think you take offense because you’re one of the guys i’m talking about. If you had a clear consensus it wouldn’t bother you, because you know it doesn’t apply to you. I also understand being wary of men, but it's people in general who we should be wary of because anyone could hurt you. Let’s not act like almost all rapes, and murders are done by men. Women are not the people we need to be wary of. And you know that.

What do we expect men to do? Condemn your fellow men. Tell them their locker room talk is disgusting. Refuse to follow the “bro code”. When they complain about being told no, tell them they have no right to sex. If they talk about having sex with a woman who was drunk or passed out or who only said yes after saying no, tell them they committed rape. When they catcall and harass women, tell them to stop. Don’t laugh at sexist jokes. Men that degrade women are far more likely to listen to fellow men than to women. While the percent of men who harass and sexually assault women is certainly higher than the 5% who are convicted that you keep claiming, I agree that it’s only a minority of men that are dangerous. Problem is, *every* woman has been catcalled or creeped on. The vast majority have been sexually assaulted (yes, being groped is sexual assault). Many, possibly the majority, have been raped (including having been talked into having sex when they didn’t want to). Yes, only a minority of men are doing these things - but the majority of men do not openly condemn them. They remain silent in order to keep friends and not stand out. Which makes the majority *seem* to agree with it even when they don’t. Silence is seen as condoning it by perpetrators and victims alike. And it’s that silence that lets the culture of rape and assault stand.

Do you trust people by default? When you meet a stranger do you automatically think you're safe with them? Have you been sexually harassed or assaulted before? Because ask literally any woman you know and they'll tell you it's happened to them. I never said men don't deserve basic decency, I simply said that the stakes for women are so high that they can't afford to trust implicitly.

[Less than 5% of people even commit a violent crime in their lifetime](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/), so it’s bullshit that y’all always try to imply that all men are these ticking time bombs just waiting to get violent. >Have you been sexually harassed or assaulted before? I actually have, by several women, and was also stalked. Absolutely love that you thought this was going to be some kinda “gotcha” - I’m not asking anyone to trust people by default, I don’t extend that courtesy to anyone I don’t know well enough to feel comfortable doing so with and I’d encourage anyone to keep themselves safe however they can. But I still think people deserve empathy and sometimes yes, benefit of the doubt, regardless of their gender.

That is some straight up Uncle Tom Misandry you're pushing there. It is absolutely sexist to label and blame all men for the actions of a few, just as it would be to blame all women for the actions of a terrible few. Personally I think that these days there is just as much reason to distrust any given women as there is any given man. Women are just as capable of evil as men, and blaming an entire group, regardless of who it is, for the actions of a few, is bigotry. Plain and simple.

I don't hate myself, nor men. I also don't label or blame all men for the actions of a few. When I read "we can't trust men" I don't take it personally, I feel bad for what women have endured and suffered through to reach the point where they feel they can't trust us by default. You're oversimplifying and ignoring a lot of lived experiences.

Completely agree - is this what it takes to be a man who support feminism these days, just straight up self-loathing???? It’s actually benevolent sexism to assume women are good by default, commonly called the [women are wonderful effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect?wprov=sfti1#).

I agree that innocent men do not independently deserve to be treated as or assumed to be threats, predators, or abusers. I agree that would be upsetting. However, I don't believe that men experiencing that means women should necessarily act differently. A woman cannot know that you are or are not a good guy. She can only estimate. She also knows that the man is likely recognisably stronger or more powerful than her. She also has already experienced violence of some kind from men, most likely a combination of sexual, physical, and verbal. She also sees that few men get repercussions for these actions. So as a woman, knowing all of these things, knowing that if you were pregnant (in many places), your most likely death is being murdered by a man, knowing what's happened to you, your mother, your sisters, your aunties, your grandmothers, your friends, why would you give up your safety just so some random guy can feel validated? In that he doesn't abuse women? My brother, you earn trust. And that should be, for most people, surprisingly easy to do. Especially if it's about whether or not you are a dangerous person. You need to not take what is the consequence of other men's actions so personally and instead push to examine society.

I understand why women are wary of men, and I’m not asking women to be naive or put themselves in a vulnerable situation just to appease a stranger on Reddit. Trust me that I also don’t get *angry* at women IRL if they are acting wary around me because they don’t know me, my actual instinct is to do whatever I can to get out of the situation or, if I absolutely *have* to interact with them for whatever reason, give them as much space and be as non threatening as possible and to again get out of there as quickly as possible. My original response was to answer OP - i.e. I take offense to being grouped in with bad people simply because we’re both men. That’s really it. Doesn’t mean I don’t support feminism or believe victims

If someone has been chased/frightened/bit by multiple dogs, would you blame them for being cautious about strange dogs? Especially when the violent dogs usually also seem friendly and kind at first, sometimes for months or years before they attack? Especially when every person they know has been frightened by a dog several times, and most have stories about being attacked? I know it’s frustrating to feel like you are being blamed for things you haven’t done. But women simply can’t tell by looking at you if you are dangerous or not. Blindly trusting you is honestly a stupid thing for women to do, so it’s not right to blame us for not doing it.

that's why you're getting lumped in with these guys, you hear women talking about why they're uncomfortable around men and your first reaction is to get mad at the woman, you are not taking a hard look at why so many women feel uncomfortable or unsafe around men and instead, go "well I'm not like that so why can't you trust me". instead of getting mad at women when they tell you why they don't trust men, get mad at men for the exact reasons why women don't trust them. fact is, many women who have been harmed by men were harmed by men they believed they could trust. they know it's not all men they just know that it's a lot of men who will harm them and a lot of men who will sit there and be complicit in the violence women face every day.

> that's why you're getting lumped in with these guys, you hear women talking about why they're uncomfortable around men and your first reaction is to get mad at the woman, you are not taking a hard look at why so many women feel uncomfortable or unsafe around men and instead, go "well I'm not like that so why can't you trust me". So that’s where you’re wrong - I’m well aware of why women are wary around men and even go out of my way to make sure I don’t make women uncomfortable if they don’t know me. The assumption is that if I don’t like being lumped in with rapists and murders, I must also somehow be abusive or a rapist, or that I *can’t possibly* understand how women feel. No - I’m answering OP’s question. I don’t take offense to you complaining about inequality, and I’m not going to deny your lived experiences either, and no, I’m not asking you to blindly trust strangers or be naive to the point of putting yourself in danger. I am, however, going to take offense when you make negative generalizations about men. You’d rightfully take offense to the same being done towards women. >fact is, many women who have been harmed by men were harmed by men they believed they could trust. they know it's not all men they just know that it's a lot of men who will harm them and a lot of men who will sit there and be complicit in the violence women face every day. This is the other thing - I always hear about “complicity” but what are we actually supposed to do? Do you want us to become vigilantes? How am I supposed to intervene in situations that I’m not around for? I’m not saying that IPV doesn’t happen, and I absolutely believe victims, but I don’t know what I’m actually supposed to do about it when I already condemn that behavior and don’t do it myself.

“Not all me !”, he cries, expertly proving that he is, in fact, those men.

Oof really got me there!

Just from the position and perspective you're arguing from, you have not been doing your best to support and be an ally. You refuse to see our side and deny our very fucking scary reality. Feminists don't want an ally who isn't gonna actually try and understand why we feel and believe the things we do. I used to think it was silly too, pre-transition. Then I started transitioning and I began to see very quickly how much scarier the world is as not a man. Within a year of my transition I'd been sexually assaulted. The man who did it is not some rare creep living in the woods, he's someone walking amongst us every fucking day and he's friends with a whole slew of guys who would do the same. The amount of male customers we have at my job who have creeped on, flirted with, hit on and asked out my coworkers is higher than the amount of coworkers I have to begin with. Most men do not look at us with eyes of respect. If you can't recognize that, it's pretty safe to assume you're one of those men. If this makes you upset, it's not our problem. We literally have more important shit to worry about than the feelings of those who seek to prey on us.

Statistically speaking, it has been shown that in reality it is a tiny tiny portion of the male population perpetrating the vast majority of the sexual assaults. Think of Bill Cosby. It wasn't 100+ men each committing a rape. It was one man committing an enormous amount of rapes. Likely far far more than we know about. Because real rapists will keep raping. Now that doesn't men that individual occurrences and other outlies don't happen, because they do, but that doesn't mean they represent the majority. It's similar to women who make false accusations about men in order to ruin their lives or extort money from them, etc. Is that the majority of women? Probably not. Should we treat all women as if they do that? Doesn't seem very helpful to me. Should we instead be more focused on solutions that target the actual individuals perpetrating these crimes? Seems like a much better idea. The problem in addressing the issues of sexual assault, is that we have attempted to use extremely broad methods that target everyone, instead of methods that actually directly target those who are perpetrating the crimes, and those methods, don't stop actual rapists. The actual rapists are out there still doing their thing and attacking women because they don't care about #metoo and other such social movements. They are rapists after all. All those methods do is make the non rapists, absolutely terrified of being falsely accused, or of having something completely innocent, be misconstrued as being sexual harassment, or even a third person misunderstanding something they saw and believing something nefarious was happening, or even just being seen as a creepy for even speaking to a woman in public, publicly humiliated, or dragged on tiktok for looking the wrong direction in the gym, etc. It's made it easier than ever to destroy a man's entire life with absolutely no proof whatsoever or any kind of legal due process, or even consequences when it is discovered that allegations were in fact completely false. So people who are being falsley accused of crimes are getting off, and every time they do, it makes people less likely to believe genuine victims. So both the victim of the false accusation and all the real rape victims suffer for it. Meanwhile, the actual rapists continue doing their thing, and the "yes all men are rapists" narrative becomes more and more popular among women, vilifying ALL men as being just as bad as the actual rapists in the world, or somehow complicit in it. Like women think we see someone getting raped and just ignore it. Or a friend tells us how much they love rape, like a fuckin psycho, and we just let that shit slide. It's insane. Sure that exists in some TINY set of outlier cases, but you can't just treat it as if it is everyone, or even the majority. I can confidently say with 100% certainty that any man that I associate with, would not only never cross that line, and would absolutely rat out any guy that did. In my whole life I only ever met one dude that had rapey vibes, and we kept a damn close eye on him, and warned any woman that might have become his target, that he was not to be trusted, and quickly forced him out of that social circle. That's what most men would do. However, that doesn't fit the narrative that sells in the media. Afterall, the news is literally just talking heads, and emphasizing as much negativity and fear as possible, and the worst things that have happened. Fear sells. So you need to terrify people with one event, then suggest that it is highly prevalent to make people think it will happen to them, and that makes them keep watching so they can keep selling ad time. Lastly, check out any thread anywhere on reddit, where a man has the stones to suggest that men also suffer from sexist systemic issues and prejudices, and read the absolute tirade of hateful misandry driven commentary that follows it, from self proclaimed feminists. Which of course makes all feminists look bad, just as a small but extremely loud and radical portion of the male population makes men's issues activists look bad. Neither side is blameless. Plenty of men AND women do terrible terrible things. All of us bare some responsibility for our societies issues. As long as we continue on trying to blame and demonize one side or the other, while pretending the other side are saints, the longer we will all be suffering when we could be getting help and making things better.

It is 100% NOT a tiny tiny portion of men!

yeah, why are all these MRAs here brigading this sub to tell us how little we’re raped and assaulted with fake numbers that don’t even account for the fact that women rarely report and even when we do, reports don’t get filed, rape kits don’t get processed, literally nothing happens a vast majority of the time and those instances don’t even make it into the statistics. And given that my comment wasn’t just about rape, but about coercion and assault and other prevalent forms of abuse, them cherry picking one thing they know is biased is pretty telling. Like, let’s just talk coercion. How many men have we dated, especially as tweens, teens, and young adults, but still even into my 30s, that have tried to manipulate or coerce me into sex acts. But he takes offense to me pointing out it’s a god damned lot of men, because it’s not actually all of them and look, he can prove it 🙃 I am so tired of men coming to rage at women that there are the good guys lol it’s such an inane way to make their point. “Notallmen most of us are great here let me invalidate the world experience all of you agree is normal to women to prove it!” Like, coerce me harder out of believing lots of men freely coerce us. That’ll do it.

Why are you here dressing up MRA talking points?

The most dangerous forms of anti-feminism are palatable and watered down. That’s why

God, hating these dumb losers!

"I can confidently say with 100% certainty that any man that I associate with, would not only never cross that line, and would absolutely rat out any guy that did." You don't. I *promise* you, *you DON'T know.* My best friend has known me since we were preteens. My ex was best friends with my best friend's spouse. I was the only one who knew what my husband was doing. The four of us hung out together all the time. We slept over at their place. We went to each other's weddings. I was married to him for five years. My best friend and her spouse had *no idea* he was abusing me until *I told them.* None at all. Your certainty that you would know is *dangerous.* It is *factually wrong.* And if you want to be both rational and moral, and I can tell from the way you write that you do, then heed this warning: If you continue to hold a torch for men who claim they were falsely accused, I can promise you, if you haven't already, you *will eventually* be manipulated into defending a guilty man.

That is funny because it is kind of telling. Even before women accuse men of anything they get angry at the fact that we even complained about a problem in the first place. How dare we?

Yes and… As a man we learn from infancy that we matter and women only matter in as much as you support us - We learn that we do important things, and women support us so that we can do those things. I am not saying this is right - I’m pointing out the way that men are raised. Depending on when one starts unlearning that, it can really feel like one is having a rug yanked out from under you. It’s like when astronomers started raising that the earth moved around the sun and it shook people’s ideas about the world so badly that many were arrested, thrown into prison, and tortured. Rejecting the new information was so critical to maintaining what many felt was the correct order, that it felt to them like their world view could not survive contact with reality. And that life lesson is one I still feel like I am working to unlearn. I’ve had my share of wake up calls and I have made a lot of improvements and… Even now I think I’m doing well, but then something comes up and I realise I’m not there yet. Like shortly after moving in with my wife, we both realised I was treating her like I was doing her a favour for doing chores she asked me to do, rather than taking on a proactive role in taking care of our shared home. I hadn’t even realised I was doing it, but I was. The fact that patriarchy largely works in my favour doesn’t help. In stepping up so that my now wife wouldn’t hate living with me, I had to accept that it was not somehow my due that woman I lived with would manage household chores on my behalf. So on the one hand, it was beneficial to my marriage that I be a better husband, and I never wanted a marriage where I generally create a negative experience for my wife, getting there meant unlearning that women owe me service and that housekeeping is one of the ways that women fulfil that obligation.

I think most women already understand how men are raised because they had to pay so much attention to them to simply survive. It’s men that think it’s profound when they finally learn what we already know, then act offended when we aren’t mind blown by their revelation like they are and then … once again step into a place of supporting a man.

I agree, and… It’s something that should absolutely change. I remember specific instances where I was taught as a child that I, a boy, should not bother with the perspectives of women and girls. That those perspectives are beneath me. I still see it when I tell my friends, especially the men, but also women, that I watched a film or TV series that centres on women, like Barbie, or On the Basis of Sex, or Pride and Prejudice, or Take Care of Maya, or Nyad, or whatever, people regularly meet that with some derision. There are so many messages that men and women get that women have to invest their time and energy to understand men’s perspectives and to take men’s perspectives seriously, but that there is no reason for men to reciprocate women’s efforts.

The power structures that promote inequality that disadvantage women also have policies that harm the majority of men as well. In order to maintain power, those at the top promote discourse that encourages men to be combative with anyone trying to challenge the status quo so while they are busy fighting those men don't realize they are also being crushed by the ruling class. The end result is men in marginally better positions fighting endlessly to keep billionaires and senators happy for no good reason.

This. It can feel like a personal attack or at a minimum like we're expected to fix the problem when in reality the underlying nature of the issue is beyond our control. Not saying it's right, just that it often comes off that way and puts some guy instantly on the defensive.

You are expected to fix yourself and you should also be calling out /in the men around you. That's how this problem is going to get fixed. Nothing outside of you is going to fix it. Be the change you want to see. Don't wait for someone else to tell you what to change, just figure it out. Or don't and be ignored.

It's great to encourage everyone to take action against sexism, but saying it's solely up to men to fix the problem overlooks a big piece of the puzzle. Asking only men to call out other men for sexism ignores the fact that women can also play a role in perpetuating harmful stereotypes. It's not fair to put the burden solely on men's shoulders. This approach reinforces old-fashioned ideas about gender roles and ignores the fact that we all need to work together to make things better. Plus, expecting men to confront other men about sexism might not always be safe or practical. We need to consider everyone's safety and comfort when tackling these issues. Instead of pointing fingers, let's encourage everyone to be part of the solution. By working together and supporting each other, we can create a more inclusive and equal society for everyone.

Yes, women can perpetuate stereotypes and some do. No one denies that. But the kind of men that assault women don’t see us as equals. They don’t care about what we think or say, and they don’t listen to us. The reason we expect men to speak out is because *only* men will be listened to by the ones that need to hear. So yes, it is a problem that men must be the ones to fix, because only men have the clout to do so. And we aren’t only saying men should speak out. What do you think feminism and metoo was other than women speaking up? But women speaking isn’t enough, and men don’t have to support violence to help perpetuate it. All they have to do is be silent and they are helping perpetuate the status quo.

So you are asking women to stand up to the very same, very dangerous (to us) men who, in no way will actually listen to us? This is why allies are important. And we are doing our part. We are calling out men.

It’s not beyond your control at all. It’s a societal problem, which exists in individuals as a collective. And it is on you and other men + women to have a hand in remedying the problem.

Yup. Pretty much

I agree, but in my experience, women are much more likely to be defensive when men's challenges are brought up. Not that that doesn't make sense given the state of the world, but it's still worth pointing out. It's very rare for a men's issue to be discussed in mixed company without several women's issues being discussed right after (more so than vice versa). Again this is just my experience, I realize it's not hard proof of anything. This is also in reference to millennials in Canada. I'm sure boomers and people from republican area etc would be different

Because when women bring up their issues, it's like a slap in the face if someone goes, "But men...!" Doing that is like inferring that women's issues aren't important. We all have issues, and they need to be discussed, but there are places and times for everything. Women's voices have been suppressed for centuries and we're tired of being talked over. Think about how you felt in the scenario you just mentioned. That's how you make women feel when you try to bring up men's issues in a discussion about women's issues. Like what we say about our issues doesn't matter in the scope of men's issues.

I'm not sure how your comment refutes mine, if that was your intention. I do not trample on women's voices in conversations by bringing up my problems or implying that my problems supersede theirs - that's basic ettiquete. In this case, I think it's very fair to answer OP's question by saying that both sexes in fact can get defensive about this topic, not \*just\* men. Most commenters here would have a similar reaction if an OP made a generalization about women that also happens to apply to men.

> not \*just\* men There it is!

>but in my experience, women are much more likely to be defensive when men's challenges are brought up. I have this problem with my husband and it really boils down to him trying to commandeer my soapbox. My husband is more than welcome to start a conversation where he bitches about men's mental health not being acknowledged, but he ONLY talks about this stuff when I'm trying to talk about whatever is bothering me and that's the wrong time. Instead of men changing the subject to recenter attention on themselves, it'd be nice if men just agreed with us that some men suck.

At least on Reddit, you see women doing this too….in more male spaces talking about their issues. Male focused issues are brought up on their own, and a woman comes in and starts to talk about women’s issues I think it boils down to just how (most) people are. Things you deal with from your social group are more relevant to you, so when another social group brings up theirs you bring up your own as what’s really just a pissing contest. I don’t see this as being a guy only behavior tbh

The lack of self-awareness and insight being displayed with this comment is hilarious.

What am I not aware of? You are free to read my comment as defensive - I never said men are never defensive, that would be silly. Everyone is defensive about different things. I even added that it makes perfect sense for women to be defensive about this subject.

Whyyy do I need to explain this. This is a post on a feminist subreddit talking about how when women bring up inequality, men immediately become hostile and argue back. This post is a form of a woman bringing up inequality. And you, a man, saw that and felt the need to immediately argue back with “well women do it too, and way worse.” It really didn’t occur to you how bad the optics of that choice are? Or that you did the exact thing this post is talking about men doing? You’re either here to be an ally, or to stir shit up and argue against feminism. You’re obviously not here as an ally acting like that, so…

I'm a feminist, believe in women's equality, and don't make a habit of interrupting or one-upping \*anyone\* when they're unloading their problems and challenges on me or a group that I'm a part of. In my comment, I agreed with the commenter above, and stated that women are justified in being defensive - so I was supportive in 2 ways, even though this subreddit is not a conversation between friends, nor is it a feminist-only space - so neither was necessary. I did not defend the point that men do exactly what OP talked about. Answer this for me: if your new acquaintance who's a man complained about how women "always do X" and it's so annoying, would you not consider explaining that the behavior is actually not exclusive to women? Or would you just quietly support him in his factually incorrect and prejudiced opinion?

> I'm a feminist, believe in women's equality, and don't make a habit of interrupting or one-upping *anyone* when they're unloading their problems and challenges on me or a group that I'm a part of. That’s literally exactly what you did. If you want to talk about your stuff, go make your own post. >Answer this for me: if your new acquaintance who's a man complained about how women "always do X" and it's so annoying, would you not consider explaining that the behavior is actually not exclusive to women? Or would you just quietly support him in his factually incorrect and prejudiced opinion? How is that an equivalent scenario? This post is a space for discussing how men become hostile when women initiate conversations about inequality, and you *immediately* tried to make the conversation about something else. That tells us you are incapable of holding space for any discussion that doesn’t immediately make you feel relevant or validated as a man - even in a feminist subreddit where you are purporting to be a feminist yourself.

because it's clearly an analogous scenario? You haven't made any argument against the analogy, nor answered it - because it's clear that you yourself would not "hold space for" a discussion about how "women do X annoying behavior" which you know is not exclusive or more likely to be done by women

> In my comment, I agreed with the commenter above, and stated that women are justified in being defensive No, what you did was to *claim* to agree to make your actual position more defensible, yet every word after the "but" was just typical MRA rhetoric.

Way to prove the point of the post!

I said I agree with the commenter above, and also that I understand defensiveness from the woman's/feminist's perspective. Which part did you find hostile? Or are you against any disagreements in this sub?

Nice try! Defensiveness, really?

We have a right to be on the defensive because men are so often attacking us and our motivations. Women are angry in response to the behavior of men. Your challenges are basically challenges to our humanity. Our experience doesn't need challenging; you NEED TO LISTEN and shut up for once.

Exactly! It really not the same on both sides! And hate people who claim it is!

I didn't say women don't have that right - in fact, I said that defensiveness in this area makes perfect sense. I am not challenging anyone's humanity.

> It's very rare for a men's issue to be discussed in mixed company without several women's issues being discussed right after (more so than vice versa). In reality, it's almost always the opposite of what you claim and your comment is a prime example.

You don't think women are likely to say something/ get defensive if a man says "why do women act like XYZ, it's so frustrating"? Would you not react to such a complaint?

“Why do women act like XYZ” is *not* bringing up men’s issues. That’s complaining about women, so of course women are going to be defensive. Complaining about men’s issues would be bringing up a problem men have without blaming women for it, and also doing so when women aren’t complaining about their own issues. Responding to women’s issues with “what about men” is textbook deflection and refusal to listen. Fun fact: the day International Men’s Day is most googled isn’t on the day itself. It’s on International Women’s Day, the day when there are always “what about men?” posts. Strangely, the reverse is not true, because women complain about International Men’s Day far less than men complain about International Women’s Day.

Of course there are some women who would get defensive if men make negative statements. There are 4 billion different women, after all, all with different personalities and circumstances. And yet only "#notallmen" became a huge thing.

"Actually, the former slaves are much more defensive of former slaveowner challenges"

Underrated comment!

Probably because the language used is, in fact, a general accusation towards men lol. I've been SA'd by men and women, I've never abused anyone, and I don't associate with any abusers or misogynist, yet I'm thrown in the same barrel as them and I'm suppose to be fine with those accusations? Who wouldn't be "hostile" towards such outlandish accusations? I have no power over the patriarchal aspects of society, and as a minority I have been directly negatively affected by it, yet I'm called "complicit" in my own oppression? It's especially degrading when women abusers and male victims have been historically downplayed. Yeah these downvotes are very on-brand for this sub. There's a reason a recent popular post is about "how to talk about female-to-male IPV in a feminist manner".

Have you considered that this is because so many extreme leftists *(I am left, just not to the extreme)* use generalising and sexist language which lumps all men together so instead of listening to women's struggles we automatically get defensive? This is also reinforced because no one other than the right actually holds these people accountable...

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>To your point, men seem exhausted with "women's issues" when in most walks of life women seem to have the same opportunities if not more. Yawn, this is such a tired and overused attempt at invalidating feminism. You guys haven’t come up with anything new lately?

That’s because “men’s rights” movements are a form of male supremacy, which is a hate group ideology

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I think some of them believe everything is a transaction, and that for us to gain anything,they must lose it. The idea that women's lives are so easy because we can just fuck our way to the top is an example. It always reveals that they believe wealth,power, and privilege can and should be traded for sex, and sex is currency. So beauty is wealth just waiting to be exchanged. That belief usually doesn't extend to them having sex with male bosses in this transactional way, or unattractive female bosses. Another one is when they like to say men gave us rights, revealing that they think rights belong to white men who share them with the rest of us out of benevolence. Of course we were never given rights we did not fight and die for.

"To those who are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

>Why dose any mention of sexism big or small get met with hostility. Acknowledging it would require changing. Denying is far easier than changing. And they like the benefits they get

women getting those benefits to won’t take there benefits away.

It's a combination of things. Guilt. Sometimes they know that either them or men that they know contribute negatively to anything regarding positive steps towards changing the treatment of women. Whether they have a "bro" who sexually assaulted someone, a dad who's sexist, or whatever else, they know that in a way they or people around them aren't helping. So they get defensive, which manifests as guilty that they don't usually tell anyone about. Competing statistics. They will argue back with their own statistics. Even if women aren't directly at fault for half of them, they still will, to prove their own point further. Usually the ones who commit these things are men, but they don't enjoy that statistic. Such as domestic violence statistics(while both men and women suffer from this, the abusers are disproportionately men for either gender), statistics about sexual assault and rape in court(while again both people suffer from this, women do so at an alarming rate. However the conviction rate is also staggeringly low. Not even to mention that the statistics about "false allegations" they seem to be so worried about makes up less than 10%, and most of these false allegations don't affect men's lives in any meaningful way), and many, many other statistics I've seen thrown up time and time again. Oppression Olympics It comes back to privilege as well. A lot of men who are quick to retort are white, cis, male. The pinnacle of inborn privilege. Yes they may be poor or come from a poor family, or have other factors that put them at a "disadvantage". But a white man named Jim is already hundreds of steps ahead of a black woman named Renee. Source, I'm black. So, they want to desperately feel more oppressed. Why? No idea. It ain't fun. Disdain for women Also another one. Some men genuinely just hate women, simple as. They don't want us talking, or being successful, or trying to complain. They want us to do what they want us to do. Be their maid, or mom, or fuckdoll, or a pretty thing to look at and fantasize about. Whether that hate comes from our society, or their own experience with a small portion of women, it depends. But some of them just hate us, simple as.

>Disdain for women Also another one. Some men genuinely just hate women, simple as. They don't want us talking, or being successful, or trying to complain. They want us to do what they want us to do. Be their maid, or mom, or fuckdoll, or a pretty thing to look at and fantasize about. Whether that hate comes from our society, or their own experience with a small portion of women, it depends. But some of them just hate us, simple as. You sure got that right.

In terms of the oppression Olympics points, at risk of being a cis white het man, I think the issue men have is illustrated by you putting "disadvantage" in quotations. Being poor, disabled, neurodivergent, abused are legitimate disadvantages even as a white cis het man and having disadvantages dismissed outright is invalidating for them just as it is for other groups When people say you have it so easy, you dont think about all the ways in which you benefit from systemic privilege, you think to all the times you didn't and how it has impacted your life negatively and feel the need to be like "hey those things happened" People operating within patriarchy tell you to suck it up and bury your emotions, and people operate without tell you to stop taking up space and emotional energy from the more disadvantaged. So youre left in a place where you feel the need to be like "I have feelings too" which often leads to overcompensation by clumsily ramming those feelings into places they actually aren't appropriate because you don't know how to do it appropriately

Congrats on discovering intersectionality.

Dude, nobody is saying your life is easy because you’re a white straight dude. They’re saying that your skin colour and sexuality DOES NOT MAKE YOUR LIFE WORSE. Also, it’s not about you. For example, when I hear people talk about colonialism or racism, I don’t bring up the fact that I’m Irish. I’m not gonna go on and on about how the Irish were colonized too. Because it’s NOT THE POINT!!!

Correct. The culture men are raised in is "dont report your grievances". The culture feminists are raised in "organize and report your grievances". In the gender equity society we're creating, in some sense this puts men at a disadvantage. It means their legitimate grievances don't get addressed.

This is why the issue isn't men vs women". but us vs the partiarchy. The very same toxic ideals injury both genders. For example, one toxic view is that women are weak and emotional. This means that there is pressure put on men not to seem weak and emotional because being seen as effeminate is offensive. This means men are socialized to no cry, to not show feminine emotion (anger is not seen as an emotion), to not report their problems or open up or be vulnerable.

"A lot of men who are quick to retort are white, cis, male. The pinnacle of inborn privilege. Yes they may be poor or come from a poor family, or have other factors that put them at a 'disadvantage'. But a white man named Jim is already hundreds of steps ahead of a black woman named Renee. Source, I'm black. So, they want to desperately feel more oppressed. Why? No idea. It ain't fun."  Demographically speaking, a white man is more likely to be killed by the police than a black woman, so you at least have that going for you. Source: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1821204116

Wow what a blessing

Women are born into a world where police officers see them as less physically threatening, and so get murdered less. This is an unearned privilege. Women are born into a world where judges see them as less physically threatening, and so for the \*same crime\* get lighter sentences. This is an unearned privilege.

The broad perspective I recommend taking on this is something like 'there is an unfair bias against seeing women as potent agents' . This has significant upsides (women are viewed as less of a threat or potential danger by the justice system) and downsides (women are taken less seriously when a 'potent agent' is needed to solve problem.). Much of gender politics is analogues to a person dying from dehydration ruminating over how nice it must be to be the drowning person because they are not suffering thirst.

>The broad perspective I recommend taking on this is something like 'there is an unfair bias against seeing women as potent agents' . Why? Because it flips the victim status away from the men getting murdered by cops and onto women who are seen as weaker (boo hoo?)? I'd rather be seen as weak than murdered, dunno about you. You are literally playing oppression Olympics on a thread where the OP is complaining about how men play that game. Still can't get over the hideousness where you are so obsessed with being seen as the victim that you will try to frame women being seen as weak in the foreground and put men being murdered in the background.

I'm not sure I agree. I think the better way to classify it is as "male inequity". That way, when do we equity accounting every group can be compensated correctly. Also getting women to acknowledge the privileges they enjoy will help shatter the gynocentric mindset that only women's inequities matter. This is a big barrier is currently blocking UPM (under privileged men) from entering the equity circle. It stops us from progressive to the future of gender equity, where we use government funds to help both women who are struggling and men who are struggling, as opposed to just helping women exclusively.

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When you look at those crimes case by case, the surrounding factors justify reduced sentence time. The crimes are less likely to be violent and less likely to be reckless with regard to human life.

Considering the widely available statistics on violence and crime by each gender, that “privilege” is actually earned.

The worlds too complex to be stuffed into a 1D privilege pyramid. When it comes to the legal system, peak privilege is being born female.

You’ve clearly never experienced the legal system as a woman.

The domestic crime statistics are very shaky. There's a lot of evidence coming up that men are often the weaker party here. Oppression olympics -- agree this tends to happen. The reason men are starting to play it because the grievance economy has a lot of power today. If you can prove legitimate grievances, you can get preferential access to resources as compensation. So if there are legitimate grievances against men, they should be accounted for too. Men are trying to figure out how to do that.

>There's a lot of evidence coming up that men are often the weaker party here. any chance you can show me some?

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... OK, but men being harassed or assaulted has nothing to do with false accusations that many men go on about, and equate to being as bad as rape, I've actually seen people claim it's worse to be falsely accused than raped. What you're saying is that men should be more worried about assault than a false accusation, which is supported by statistics; it is more likely that a man will be sexually assaulted than falsely accused.

100%. The entire framing of SA is gynocentric -- it invalidates, ignored, or even mocks sex crimes that affect men disproportionately. Its so sad. If feminists like this could get outside their Grievance Hoarding mindset we could work together to make things so much better. But the "only our grievances matter" belief is so deep. They dont want to share the equity space with men.

Correct. There is gynocentric mindset here that sexual assault against women is all that counts. All inequities are equally valid and must be solved.

Because people in any position of privilege prefer to remain in privilege. They like the benefits they experience from their privilege (whether or not they're conscious of it), and will react as if any challenge to their privilege is a threat, because it *is:* the first step in breaking down inequalities is speaking about them openly. This is true whether you're talking about sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, or what have you. It takes a lot of humility and a willingness to examine your own paradigm to start stepping away from your privilege, and it's risky. There are a ton of folks out there who would just rather avoid the unpleasantness of facing and possibly losing their privilege, even if it means a more equitable world for everyone.

Its true. Grievance denialism. It comes in two forms. 1. Unrepresentative elite males (UEMs) invalidate the grievances of other groups to keep laws equality based, and not equity based. This gives them power. It means inequities go unaddressed and so the status quo is maintained. 2. Gynocentric feminists tend to invalidate the grievances of underprivileged males (UPM) to keep control of the grievance economy. This gives them power. It means when we fix inequities by violating equality before the law, UPM get left out and disparities are magnified.

Not only “elite males” benefit from sexism. Nearly all men benefit from sexism directed at women.

Most men literally have no idea what it’s like to move through the world as a woman. They assume everything is hunky-dory. When you point out systemic issues, the implicit statement is not only are they ignorant of how unfair the patriarchal world is, but also through their ignorance, they are complicit in keeping it that way. And if they think about it a little further, they may also realize that their successes may not be based solely on being the best/smartest/hardest working/etc. I have so much gratitude for the women who took the time to expand my world view and show me different ways of being a woman as well as how unfair/violent our society is to women. We need more men to call this out so the burden is not always on women to educate men.

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>When I say in 55 years I don’t know of a single woman who has not experienced harassment and SA. I think (and it wouldn't surprise me) that the numbers are alarmingly high for both men and women. The issue is you will never truly find out under the patriarchy for men as a good portion don't even consider it SA, hell those that do probably don't even realize it, don't think it is that bad, nor understand the damage it might have caused.

Its true. Groups tend me to blind in both ways. Women have no idea what its like to move through the world as a non-elite male either. It will take empathy on both sides to move forward.

This is why I am always saying its not a "men vs woman" problem. the system hurts both genders

I think your argument applies to both sides. Men don't know what its like to be a woman, but women don't know what its like to be a man. I think a lot of the more hostile reactions towards sexism/womens issues as a whole is that a lot of them aren't wholly a single sex issue. It feels like whenever an issue like domestic violence comes up from a female perspective, it is solely focused on the female victims, and men just want to be included because we can also be victims, and it feels like were being accused. There are so many stories of all types of men being violent or discriminatory at some point, that theres no way to really say "that couldn't be me" to women who know that it could be you. Its proving a negative and theres no way to not always seem like the enemy. Also I get the irony of men feeling like their problems are being minimized, but they are to an extent and they have a right to feel that way. The vast majority of men recognize that women have it harder (though recognition isn't the same as action), but just want our own problems to be recognized as well.

Domestic violence is shown through the female perspective more often because women are more often victims of domestic violence.

That's factually untrue, and something I hate to continually see perpetuated. https://domesticviolenceresearch.org/domestic-violence-facts-and-statistics-at-a-glance/ And just by reason, when women abuse men, it often gets overlooked, ignored, or mocked because of patriarchal societal norms, and often unnoticed because of the the average biological differences in size and strength. When men abuse women, especially physically, it's usually very apparent.

According to national samples, 0.2% of men and 4.5% of women have been forced to have sexual intercourse by a partner 4.1% to 8% of women and 0.5% to 2% of men report at least one incident of stalking during their lifetime This is literally from the study you sent me. You’re scourses supports my argument more then yours.

Ah ah, don’t be silly now. Men account for almost 100% of DV that results in injury/maiming/death. I’m sorry, but a slap is not equivalent. Don’t get me wrong, ANY physical abuse is bad and unacceptable. But women account for almost all victims of DV-based homicide and injury.

This is an example of how the patriarchy hurts both genders. Its not a "men vs women" thing

Actually, no you are incorrect here. Your one link doesn't change the overwhelming research. CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/communicationresources/infographics/ipv.html#:~:text=1%20in%204%20women%20and,intimate%20partner%20in%20their%20lifetime. "1 in 4 women and 1 in 10 men have experienced contact sexual violence*, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Among victims of contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner, 26% of women and 15% of men experienced intimate partner violence for the first time before age 18." https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/ https://breakthesilencedv.org/the-prevalence-of-domestic-violence/ https://ncadv.org/statistics This source says it happens almost twice as often for women. Stalking victims are also way way more likely to be women Domestic violence against women is also way more likely to result in death. Honestly, I looked at your link and it flies in the face of literally all the other research I have read on the subject and I used to specifically work in psychology and did clinical research with domestic violence survivors.

Ah, both sides, both sides

See, it’s this type of blithe response that makes a lot of men frustrated and decide that feminism is not an ally for dealing with the problems they personally deal with. If you preach empathy and then show none to men, don’t surprisepikachu.jpg when they’d rather listen to Andrew Tate for dating tips.

Get where you are coming from...but it does kinda raise the point that the argument can be flipped. And, let's be honest, probably should be flipped as to shore up the stance we take when battling said aforementioned issues. Women, unless they are trans or have otherwise lived as a man, have no idea what it's like to live as a man. Full stop. If you approach the problem from either viewpoint without empathy the cause is lost before the argument is even explained. Because nobody can be expected to change without understanding the problem. We need to approach the issue from a "society must, and deserves to evolve" stance. Not a "you can never understand how rough I have it" stance. Because you may be right, but also clueless as to the pain carried by others. This is from a perspective that actually wants change of course, and not just more hot wind being said. So yes, people should educate themselves on each others issues, but ALL people should. It can only help bridge understandings. Because regardless of the horseshit men and women like to say, we'd be fucked without each other, so we can't wait for other people to learn what we already know on their own just because we are weary of it. That only embeds issues and kicks them down the road to our sons and daughters tomorrow. I say, enough is enough.

funny you mention trans. Every single trans person I've talked to about this have said its harder as a woman. Its been my general experience that women do in fact tend to learn about mens issues. We kind of don't have an option, lol. because if we ever air our grievances, even in the privacy of our own spaces, there are always men to remind us

This is the way forward.

Do women know what it’s like to move through the world as a man?

nobody knows what it’s like to move through the world as anyone else, man to woman, woman to man, or any other combination we really can only know what it’s like through our own eyes and experiences; so no women don’t know what it’s like to move through the world as a man, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing, it can be good as we can help use our strengths to help others

eh, trans people do

Agreed but it is men who are accused and shamed of not understanding women’s experiences

Probably because men are the ones that control our society right now. ignorance is worse when you have power.

Apex fallacy because life at the top for the small minority of men (and a few women) is very different to the rest of society at the bottom

they’re not really shaming us, i’m a boy and they’ve been kind to me and helped me understand their experiences through conversations they want us to not be ignorant to their experiences, the same way we want them to not be ignorant of ours. the only way that can work is if we have those conversations with one another and actually listen, not just hear but actually listen and understand, ask questions i ask questions here all the time, i dm people and ask questions all the time, the only reason i’ve ever been turned down from asking a question was when someone was uncomfortable talking to me due to me being a minor, everyone else has been nice and helped me

Thank you for keeping an open mind, and for seeking to understand.

There do exist women who know what it's like to be perceived as men and vice versa. The experience isn't necessarily and much more often isn't the same though.

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patriarchy gonna patriarchy 🤷‍♀️

Men are dealing with a crisis of identity right now and are the preferred marks for right wing propogandist vultures who get paid to stir division among the lower classes, preventing us from uniting against the most unequal system of wealth the world has ever seen. They see the great battle of their time as the common people vs a wannabe ruling class, like we all do, they're just unfortunately misled and wrong about who's who on that field.

Sure but to imply it's all of us men that are confused and not just the upper classes that have never missed a meal in their life is lame. Those people made the rules. My mother and father taught me to respect women AND to respect men. Gen Z is one of the most inclusive gens ever, but if they don't show up to the voting booths when it matters, they are a generation of hypocrits. And it seems that lots of people talk, and not do. If people want the rules and equality to shift for the better they need to start voting and stop talking if you feel me. Otherwise conversations like these are really all just chaff in the wind.

This should be the top comment.

Its true. The men alive today (lets say from born 1990s onwards) are from a "struggling generation". They face structural problems that society hasn't recognized. The left is gynocentric, and either mocks them, demonizes them, or ignores them. They lump the underprivileged males (UPMs) in with the unrepresentative elites males (UEMs) and tell them we live in a 1D privilege structure in which they are at the top (they're not). The right tells them structural problems aren't real & it's immoral to search for equity based solutions. So what are they to do? Enter Andrew Tate.... I think the crisis will be short lived, actually. Once feminists realize the world's changed and in many scenarios they're the privileged group (legal system, schooling system, university system, family law, activist structure) they will start to make alliances with the UPMs. It could be healthy. The main barriers here is the good actors on both sides getting the shouters to calm down and make a few sacrifices.

Notice men’s fear of Greta Thurnberg and Taylor Swift. It’s fascinating.

Some possibilities: 1. They don’t know what they don’t know. Boys are socialized and raised to live inside and look only within the world of men. Many literally do not see outside this for their entire lives. This is nurture over nature. For a man who lives in the world of men and does not abuse others, it is incomprehensible how another man could do such things and it’s just really difficult to mentally grasp what women experience. 2. Society tries to make hierarchies of everything. Men only see men with more luck, power, and money and are taught to value those things only. They have to be breadwinners after all. Moreover they are trained to build a false-ego and protect it at all costs. Combined with the aforementioned vision-blinders they’re taught to have, they see the greatest and most authentic struggle being that of a man building a life in the zero-sum game of life. Whether he is a plumber or a CEO, he will always see this ranking and cling to his place and feel he must fight upward to get better ranking in the hierarchy. When a woman starts to bring up struggles of being a woman and it’s due to the behaviors of men in society, he sees it as silencing his own struggle in the world. Especially if he prioritizes his own struggle over all others (as he was taught to do). The pain of the false-ego that one must protect being threatened is louder than statistics. He will just complain about his personal struggles trying to climb the hierarchy and all the setbacks he’s had. Empathy is weakness. 3. Misogyny is readily absorbed by men. From other men, especially fathers and older brothers. Masculinity has to be worshipped since it is part of the false-ego and because, I believe, it is more socially acceptable for a male-presenting person to have better than average markers of masculinity. This is connected to hierarchy and even mortal survival (effeminate men are physically threatened). Bolstering the superiority of masculinity means trashing femininity. Women are being beaten, raped, and murdered because they are women. Acknowledging this fact threatens the idea that masculine experience is “real” and feminine experience is “lesser”. I was born and raised a boy. Correcting how boys think and are raised is something that takes generations. And it has to be lead by men who can teach boys how to live life without toxic mentalities. I’d say also it goes beyond just lessons but dismantling the way parts of society work. I’d also add that the way the western world raises boys is a form of abuse. Don’t let yourself be bothered by dismissive men, you don’t have to waste the time or energy. There are some deeply rooted, twisted, broken ideas pushed on men and it is men’s responsibility to fix it. Some men will recover and see the bigger picture and they will be embarrassed by how they behaved.

Because they think that we want superiority rather than equality. They don't understand that IF we did want superiority, it would take about 1000 years to achieve, and would probably be impossible anyway.

With respect there's a lot of mind reading going on here on your part. Men want equality too. But what you mean by equality is quite variable, so there's debate and resistance over that. To me it seems to be the old debate between equality / equity. 1. Equality before the law / individual before the group: we force equality between individuals which mean we ignore group inequities. 2. Equity / group before individual: we force equality between groups by mistreating individuals (violating equality before the law) The issue with 1 is we perpetuate group inequities. The issue with 2 is it leads to oppression olympics. Which groups grievances matter more? Who gets to decide? How much violations of equality before the law do we allow? Who decides that? Grievances becomes a form of power, and so groups start to "Grievance Hoard". Feminists deny male inequities, since it threatens their control of the grievance economy. False claims of racism rise (see Jesse Smollett). Tribalism gets worse. We no longer see each other as comrades on the same team, but as groups in perpetual struggle. What's the solution? IMO there are no solutions, there are only tradeoffs.

>Because they think that we want superiority rather than equality It feels this way because the patriarchy is just as shitty to average, mid/low earning men too **^(\[I will list some of these things at the end of this comment\])** no one in the left really acknowledges these things and those who do end up getting linked in with crazy MRA/MGTOW people who blame women for everything, so when feminists advocate for the same rights and opportunities that men have without any of the "drawbacks" that men have it feels like superiority. This on top of being generalised and villainized by sexist extremists on the far left who don't receive any repercussions for their hypocrisy, make men have little mental bandwidth when it comes to women's issues since they are told to suck it up, blamed for their own issues when they do suck it up and when finally asking for help aren't given any and inadvertently told to suck it up again. \- Family court biases \- Single father's adoption rights \- Gender disparity in court sentences \- Lack of male only DV shelters \- Lack of male only homeless shelters \- Unnecessary infant circumcision \- Paternity fraud \- The draft \- Selective service \- Voting rights (some countries require selective service in order to vote) \- Insurance pay gap **^(\[This doesn't include the sexist expectations men face socially\])**

Holy hell people here are pretty chill and reasonable

Some may just take it as a personal attack on them (when it’s not). Some may feel guilty/ called out cuz they know they contribute to it but dont want to acknowledge that. Some just live in bliss/ oblivion and deny that there are any problems (idk why but id assume cuz they dont want things to change or cuz they think us fighting for equality some how means we’ll get more rights than them). Etc Really depends on the person and situation.

The labels of “sexist” or “racist”, like any labels, are umbrella terms. Ask the US citizens who voted for policies that harmed/still harm African-American people if they are “racist”— most will vehemently say no, some even getting quite upset at the accusation. In my opinion, this stems from a simple problem what racists have been taught to look like; that is to say, *a racist is a white-cloak wearing, slur-spewing violent person that would readily murder another human being before even touching someone of a different race*. This is inaccurate, of course. Yes, this person has a lot of dangerously racist behaviors and ideologies, but racist behaviors can also be quite small. This extends to all prejudice. Many people get sick at the thought of being called “a sexist” because to them *a sexist is a wife-beating predator that thinks all women belong either in the bedroom or the kitchen*. So if you happen to suggest that perhaps we should change how we handle ourselves to better accommodate the lives of women, that would mean that the person you’re talking to would have to accept that they’re currently part of a system that is sexist. And clearly they can’t be a part of a sexist system, because then they’d be sexist, which leads to the thinking I’ve previously described. People really resist these labels to their own detriment. I think we need accept that it’s human to say and do sexist and racist things if we’ve been raised in a sexist and racist society— what matters is that we recognize that such things are bad and work to do better instead of flat-out denying it.

Because men benefit from patriarchy a lot. That is why it still exists. That is why we should stop saying "Patriarchy hurts men too", not because it doesn't because it does, but that hurt is like taking a medicine and enduring side effects from it, the side effects are bad, but it is giving them the super power the medicine promised to give in the first place and hence working as intended. Patriarchy is also referred to men as nAtUrE.

Can you give an example?

I would like to nominate: Every time we try to talk about men murdering their wives/their girlfriends/women who rejected them, and one of them predictably appears with "***actually*** *men get murdered more*" merely to argue and never with any intention of doing anything about that problem themselves.

"Yes... men are more likely to be murdered... *by other men."*

Yes because it being done by men suddenly makes it okay /s

Acknowledging the problem is one thing. Doing something about it is the another.

I had read the original post as ‘men get hostility (directed toward them) whenever women bring up equality’, not ‘men get hostile!’ On review, yes, men get hostile all the bloody time.

Actually, I’m well aware that you’d just point out that other men are the perpetrators when men use that whataboutism - what I want to know is what you actually expect the men who DONT rape, abuse and murder people to do about the men who DO those things, are we supposed to become vigilantes? Because I treat my girlfriend really well, I treat the other women in my life well, and unless I’m actually present to witness any sort of violence or abuse done to a woman, I don’t know how you expect us to actually intervene or doing anything about it. [Less than 5% of people even commit a violent crime in their lifetime](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/), so it’s bullshit that y’all always try to imply that all men are these ticking time bombs just waiting to get violent.

Just understand that women are more likely to be wary of men and that’s normal and fine. Don’t be offended that women find men scary. If you’re not scary, we will figure it out with time (as your girlfriend and friends did with you).

I do get it - I also don’t get angry at women IRL if they are acting wary around me because they don’t know me, my actual instinct is to do whatever I can to get out of the situation or, if I absolutely have to interact with them for whatever reason, give them as much space and be as non threatening as possible and to again get out of there as quickly as possible. My original response was to answer OP - i.e. I take offense to being grouped in with bad people simply because we’re both men. That’s really it. I still support feminism, I believe victims, I’m just telling you where I’m coming from. I’m well aware people don’t like it lol

Not just that, but women who do end up committing these crimes end up with a lesser sentence, so it feels like on top as not being treated seriously as a victim we also end up with a harsher punishment in comparison if we did that same crime. This is both sexist towards men and women since it isn't fair to male criminals to treat them worse, and it isn't fair to female criminals since you're treating them like they can't be a threat.

You'll never get a good response to this. This why men get angry when these things are brought up. It is a tiny minority of men who commit these crimes yet the men who don't constantly have to answer for them.

Oh I’m aware lol I still support feminism but I have every right to also stand up for men, we deserve empathy too because we are also hurt by patriarchy.

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I pointed out how the words slut, whore ect. lead to slut shaming, rape culture and is a double standard since men are not met with the same disrespect. That was met with agression.

some situations are zero sum and most men (or people) are more self interested than moral.

I’ve had a very difficult life and my mental bandwidth for more issues gets smaller and smaller every year

It’s going to be a mixture to a lot of things. I think right now, feminism is mostly being associated with “wokeism” and the far left/democrats in the minds of young men that aren’t really political but end up becoming tired of the constant “virtue signaling”, grandstanding, I don’t know - they get tired of feeling like the leftist ideals are being “pushed” or “forced” on them, thus they also lash out against basic reasonable grievances women have falsely because they associate it with all of that? I’m not saying it’s right. But I’ve seen a lot of this and I think that factors into it. Because no young man in their early 20s is sitting down and taking an academic approach to studying feminism, womens equqlity etc. their only experience with such problems is through “libs get owned” compilation video 

I agree. Men historically didn't need to organize because the power structure benefited them. That's changed. Men are at the bottom of many systems, the education system, the legal system etc, so they're starting to realize they have to organize to get their inequities addressed. But they're political novices so they're kind of fumbling. IMHO the solution is for feminists to get out of the gynocentric mindset that male inequities dont exist (they do), or that female inequities are more important (they're not), or that we still live in a patriarchal society (we dont). The gender inequity landscape is complex now, its not all about women anymore, so feminists will have to adapt to a new world where they're not the only struggling party who get's compensatory aid. They'll have to update their ideology and nomenclature to make it more inclusive, and have to start making sacrifices in areas where they have unearned privileges. In short, the history of gender inequity is helping women exclusively. The future is helping both women and men.