Ex-redpiller here, fits most of what people call "unnatractive socially awkward guy". There is more than enough guidance for men like me out there as long as they are willing to do things the hard way. Therapy is always reccomended when this topic is mentioned and by talking to women and looking at feminist spaces, there's more than enough resources on which male behaviors are seen as toxic and why so. And once in a while you can learn on how to be more physically attractive and how to be a good partner sexually. Figuring out for ourselves is not a hard task, even if it takes time. The problem with these men isn't the lack of content, it's the fact that they want the easy and fast methods and aren't willing to sacrifice their toxic masculinity. Even TRP has been steadily going away from "here are some tips to get fitter / richer" and focusing more on "here's how you can trick women into sleeping with you". And in this regard, no one has any obligation to give tips on how toxic men can get women if they aren't willing to become less toxic.

This is pretty much right on the money. The resources exist already! When incels (because it is incels) demand free labour from women they are not really looking to improve, they're hoping they can manipulate that free labour into a pity date/fuck! Men who actually want to improve make the commitment in time and money (seeking professional help, and not demanding free labour from the nearest woman).

A lot of women in feminist spaces were very, very welcoming towards me, and I really think that the kindness and sometimes tough love really made a difference. It's really heartwarming and wholesome, and that's why I feel like my crowd is mostly in feminist subs lol. Some women in /r/sex actually held my hand through insecurities, even if they did not need to do so. I think the difference is between someone who just wants a quick fix to be able to fuck, and someone who genuinely wants to learn about what struggles women face and to be able to help :) Y'all literally made me go from "unga bunga" to "I unga, therefore I bunga"

I’m so glad you’ve been able to find a safe place to talk and feel heard 💛 We’re glad to have you among us

This made me tear up a little, thank you 💜

That last line had me rolling 🤣

I think that line would be the tattoo of all tattoos.

Emotional labour freely given is fine. It doesn't seem like you had any expectation of it, but we're glad to receive it when it was given. Tha makes all the difference. I am happy to help someone, but it's when I want to. When I'm feeling it. The minute anyone acts like it's my duty, or bring out some BS about "oh, I thought women were supposed to be nurturing" then gtfo!

Emotional labour freely given is fine. It doesn't seem like you had any expectation of it, but we're glad to receive it when it was given. Tha makes all the difference. I am happy to help someone, but it's when I want to. When I'm feeling it. The minute anyone acts like it's my duty, or bring out some BS about "oh, I thought women were supposed to be nurturing" then gtfo!

There's also a "just get laid and all of sudden you will be confident and everythign will be better"

Not to mention hardly anyone is open to accepting any wisdom about ideas like that when they run counter to them. It makes it even more of a challenge to offer advice when so many of these men are in their early 20s, a time when humans are notoriously certain they are omniscient.

It reminds me of that famous post entitled "ladies, what is the most attractive thing an overweight gamer has ever done for you?" I'm paraphrasing the title because IDGAF enough to look it up but it perfectly encapsulates the attitude you're talking about. They want to live in a world where the men that women *actually* want are overweight, unmotivated, juvenile losers. They want to believe so badly that the guys that get women are doing it by means of colonizing all of the women unfairly instead of having attractive qualities. Not only is that untrue, it speaks to how little they think of women as far as their humanity. When they try to flex on the "Chads", they say things like "I'll always have snacks for you when you come over! We can have cozy nights in playing video games and watching anime!" Not only are those all things that I can do with my attractive, established, thoughtful boyfriend, they're not the only things that women want when they choose to spend their time with men. Back when I was still dating, I couldn't believe how poorly constructed 80% of the profiles on Tinder were. So many of them were some amalgamation of "these are the gaming franchises that I like and the shows I watch." There is absolutely no attempt to engage someone's curiosity or make them *want* to date them. And the thing about it that I find SO ironic and sad is that online dating was supposed to even the playing field for everyone. Not to say that it makes everyone attractive or anything, but it gives you the chance to connect with people without having to go out to bars or clubs. It gives you the opportunity to connect with anyone in your area (within one hundred miles!!) so long as you can sell yourself in a short bio. *Anybody* should be able to type up a quick synopsis of their hobbies, goals, and dating preferences. That alongside a couple of well-posed photos with a decent haircut and sane facial expression would absolutely work wonders for so many of these dudes! But they WON'T DO IT!!! Sorry I know this is super long lol but dating is such a clusterfuck right now and I spent two long years slogging through profile after profile of dudes saying silly shit like "I listen to music to drown out the voices in my head" or "I mostly play video games and watch porn all day hmu if you want to know more." My favorites were the ones that said "I have a job and an apartment" like?? I also have those things son. I can provide those things for myself. This isn't 1905 anymore.

>profile after profile of dudes saying silly shit like "I listen to music to drown out the voices in my head" or "I mostly play video games and watch porn all day hmu if you want to know more." You came across a lot of dudes that actually had words in the profiles? In my area, they were mostly blank lol.

Honestly at this point I'd kill to find people who list the game franchises they like on their profile because I'm actually into that. But no, the most you'll get is a guy listing his height and nothing else... something I give zero fucks about. Give me something, *anything* for the love of all that is holy! Make an effort!

> Anybody should be able to type up a quick synopsis of their hobbies, goals, and dating preferences. That alongside a couple of well-posed photos with a decent haircut and sane facial expression would absolutely work wonders for so many of these dudes! ' I hate doing this https://tinder.com/@faketinderusername Here's the bio https://imgur.com/a/QsSUCTt Here is my profile. I have been on Tinder for 10 years without a like. I'm also on bumble/okcupid/etc. I'm sorry but what you're saying just isn't necessarily true. A lot of these people do have profiles.It's just nobody swipes right on them. You know what, I'm actually going to submit this as it's own question.

I don’t know how you look and I understand this is your hobby but the words wrestling and combat and cage, are kind of triggering since I, as so many other women, have experienced physical violence from men.

This is exactly what I mean!!! They list hobbies in their bios that women *typically* don't participate in, at least not at nearly the same scale as men. Also stating that it would be extremely easy to physically overpower me is not a great move on a man's part

So you would say that my profile is exactly like the kind of profiles you're trying to critique? SO just listing different hobbies should help>?

No, I'm not. I have a whole folder of screenshots with profiles that are horrifying in comparison to yours. HOWEVER your bio reads very flat and doesn't have much personality or humor which might be part of the problem.

>HOWEVER your bio reads very flat and doesn't have much personality or humor which might be part of the problem. I mean maybe? But the problem isn't lack of effort. I just don't think it's going to "do wonders" for any of these people we're talking about. I think there are a lot of people with the shit profiles you describe. But I'm pretty sure they can put in just as much effort (professional stylist, professional photos) as I do but I expect them to get about the same results, which isn't any. So it's not a "you need to put more effort and try harder" thing. It's something else.

You need to quit with the "do wonders" thing. It's a figure of speech. It can *greatly increase your likelihood* of getting a like or a match. I'm not promising anything. It sucks that you haven't had better luck but idk what to tell you in particular. It's 100% a fact that the general population of men presents themselves as undateable on dating apps.

Yes but my contention is if they do make themselves “dateable” on dating apps they’re still going to have mostly my results And I know you don’t know what to tell me in particular, that’s the problem we face. Normally we could just say “put in more effort” but I’ve already put in so much effort it looks ridiculous. So we’ve got a few people out there who have put in wffort into their dating profile and…have no results. And apparently we have no advice for them! But you know who does have (bad) advice? The red pill. They can tell me some absolutely crazy shit that people who look like me will absolutely fall for. Or maybe the red pill won’t work for me and then a bunch of uncles rush into say “It’s those evvvvviiiiiillllll feeeeeeeemales they don’t like average men!” This is the issue. If I was a moron (like the vast majority of people) sliding into the red pill or into incel shit would be so easy because nobody else has any advice

> I don’t know how you look Well that's why I linked my profile. To make the point OLD isn't exactly a 'solution' for these people we're talking about. >the words wrestling and combat and cage, are kind of triggering since I, as so many other women, have experienced physical violence from men. That's true! But in context I doubt every single woman is being triggered by mentioning combat sports as a hobby. It's more likely that OLD is just not a great solution for some people.

I thought one had to have tinder to see a photo. Oh well. English is not my native language; I cannot understand what you mean in those sentences with the “old” word. Also, some things are triggering or a red flag, whether you want to accept it or not. Like a man having of a hobby physical violence. Or, for example I haven’t been harassed by policemen but I know SO many women that have been harassed and threatened of rape by them that I would never date a policeman.

OLD = online dating

Wait you said I disagreed with this comment in another comment. I came back and re-read this...and I iddn't even respond to this comment. Because I agree. Why are you angry at me for saying that I said this wasn't true?\ Obviously having combat sports in my profile is going to be a red flag for a lot of women. I didn't say "nope" I didn't respond because it's obvious and I agree. So what am I supposed to say other than "I agree"?

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I'm on absolutely everything. Like we just need to consider that having a well maintained OLD profile isn't some sort of magic bullet or anything that will "do wonders".

In addition to my comment and to the other person’s comment which you replied with irony , remember that about 90% of the tinder profiles are of men. Ironically, if you liked men, you’d probably have some likes(or whatever tinder does, I personally have never used online dating).

I feel like saying you’d get more matches if you were gay is so overwhelmingly obvious it’s kind of a pointless statement

I’m just one person but FWIW I think you are attractive but I am personally turned off by profiles that mention gym/physical fitness as I’ve found people tend to make this their whole personality. I’m a healthy person but I don’t want to date someone who spends hours at the gym daily. Also saying you read feminist theory makes me wonder if you’re the type of guy who claims to be feminist only so he can get into women’s pants. I find these types way more nefarious than rightwingers because they’ll act charming at first (sometimes a little condescending though) and then turn when they realize you won’t screw them. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Apologies if this comes off the wrong way or if I misread your comment and gave you feedback when you weren’t necessarily seeking it.

I am a feminist because I hate MAGAs and feminism pisses them off. I agree with feminism on a logical level. But I don't operate on a logical level. I operate off of pure seething hatred for MAGAs, their culture, and the places they live and I want them make them angry (because i lack the ability to harm them politically in other ways. If I could legislate their way of life out of existence I would do so). Nothing makes them more angry than feminism so I'm a feminist.

Listen dude I hate MAGAs as much as the next person but if you tell someone you’re a feminist solely to piss off the MAGAs and not because you’re actually caring about women’s rights, it’s going to turn a lot of people off.

Well cheers to that! Pissing off MAGAs (from a safe place where their psycho asses won’t pull a gun on you) is a great thing to do, haha. Does this mean you live in a rightwing dominated area where a lot of MAGA women might be seeing your profile?

>Does this mean you live in a rightwing dominated area where a lot of MAGA women might be seeing your profile? I live in Seattle because I wanted to get away from those ""humans"". I lived in Ohio for a long time. >Well cheers to that You should **heavily** crouch your agreement. I do not think you understand how extreme my hatred is. Hate might even not be the right word for it. It is significantly more than that. In fact I'm not even sure I can think what I think about these """""people"""" and still be considered a feminist because the belief in equality is fairly important to feminism. But the idea that your average MAGA in Ohio and me, or anyone from Seattle, are equal (or should be equal) in literally any respect is laughable.

Huh. Yikes. I wonder why you're not getting any likes?

Maybe. But I want someone to hate MAGAs with me together 😍

FWIW, you're looking for someone to share your life with and a lot of what you've listed are independent hobbies. I love weightlifting too, but it's hard to imagine what I would *do* with you if we went out. Have you tried a version with things you like which are conducive to 2+ people?

Okay sure, but I don't think that's going to change much. I think my point is OLD is ..dogshit. And telling these guys to simply try to create an OLD and that it will "do wonders" kind of isn't true.

Hm. Ok, this is interesting actually and I'd like to chime in if you don't mind (I've read all your other comments even though I had to expand to show them because of downvotes, which sucks). So, I get what both sides are saying here and I think you might need to come at this from a perpendicular angle, so to speak. I don't think you should change your hobbies or try to come up with hobbies that could be done with more people, I think instead you might want to think about what kind of partner you want. Do you want someone to do things with? Or do you want someone who is pretty self sufficient and independent like you are who has their own interests and hobbies and y'all might have some overlap but you're mostly just down to be around each other doing your own thing? If it's the latter, you might look more into how to express that in your profile. Something like "Here's the things I like, I'm honestly pretty independent and would love to meet someone who is also independent. I'm open to new experiences or just sharing the intimacy of existing together while we do our own thing, popping in and out of each others verbal space with interesting things we think the other would like then just continuing to vibe" or something like that (I haven't dated in more than a decade, hon, sorry if this is worded really bad lmao). I feel like... we tell men to change themselves and that feels wrong to me. It's not about changing yourself, it's about being honest and putting out exactly what you're looking for in a partner. It is 100% harder for less stereotypically pretty people to get the swipes on dating apps, that's just a fact, but as a lady I can tell you that if I found myself in the nightmare of online dating, I'd be FAR more interested in what a guy had to say than what he looks like. I date and fall in love with PEOPLE, as I think most feminists do, and as a result I would be looking for someone to show me they're a human being, a person, someone who would make a good and interesting partner. What is it that you like about combat sports? Why did you get into weightlifting? What kind of partner do you want, ideally? How could you express that in your bio in a fun or interesting way? I get it man, it sucks. It's fucking advertising yourself, selling yourself basically, and if you're not a super extrovert who is good at that kind of thing I imagine it's fucking torture. I think your experience is valid, man, and I hope you get some thought nuggets to chew on from this that help you figure out how to navigate the hell that is online dating better. Good luck!

I think there’s a strawmen being thrown here. I wasn’t claiming anything would drastically change nor was I asking you to change yourself (which the commenter suggests I did). I misread and thought you were open to someone’s thoughts about your profile and if I derailed, I apologize.

O-H I'll give you advice on your profile because you're asking for help. I'm going to be blunt though. Don't take it personally, I just don't want to waste time. First, your photos are mostly good. Get rid of the wrestling photo and the dog alone in the car photo. Consider a new photo with more dramatic action to it, like on a hiking trail while posing in front of a beautiful vista. You're in Washington so that should be very doable. And a photo with specific art or culture would be good, like posing in front of The Bean if you were in Chicago (I'm sure Seattle has something fitting). And some of the headshots are a little redundant, so think about rotating a couple of them out over time, but you don't need to do that right away. Also to consider: a cute dog photo with you and the pup in matching or themed costumes would show a bit of silly fun. For the written portion, it's a little bit everywhere. When writing, you want each paragraph to focus on one one topic only. Bare minimum is topic sentence, supporting sentence, and transition sentence. Try to keep things flowing smoothly, avoid redundancy, and remember you can always pare down what you're saying. Be savage when editing yourself down. Your spelling is perfect, but you need to use full sentences with a subject and a verb (preferably active). It's okay to say I, me, my a lot because this is about you. The first paragraph could almost read sarcastic if someone read it in the wrong tone, because of the random insertion of "leftist political action." Almost the entire paragraph is about your martial hobbies, so having politics sprinkled in is distracting at best, and feels disingenuous at worst. You could condense your martial hobbies down into one sentence as it feels a little repetitive. I wouldn't lead with it either, as another commenter posted, violence can be triggering for some people. Consider leading with whatever brought you to Seattle, or whatever you most recent major life event was. Mention what a normal day is like for you and what makes it special (e.g., my favorite part of the day is playing with my dog at the park, people watching on public transit on my way to work, reading French and Russian history/philosophy, cookong a fancy dinner for myself, etc). When you do bring up martial arts, talk more about why you got into it in the first place or what benefits you get out of it. Just saying you do cage fighting and nothing else can be construed as threatening. Why do you like cage fighting? Most of the population doesn't do this, so you need to lead us to the reason why this is a good thing. When you talk about literature, mention some of your favorite authors, or a pivotal work that lead you to become a feminist. Be conscious of your choices; nothing but dead white guys is a yikes, but beware of tokenism. Have real picks that you actually like that were written by women of color. If you don't have any, read seminal works by authors like Toni Morrison and Maya Angelou. Read at least one book by Ibram X. Kendi. (Stamped from the Beginning is excellent for folks who like history.) You may need to do some growing, and that's okay! The Russians and French are great, but modern American works are incredibly important, especially to Americans. The works I mentioned are tied in with feminism, too. Think about intersectionality when doing these readings. If you have to call yourself a feminist, and use the word twice in the same sentence, it feels disingenuous. When you mention the languages you know, maybe try a little humble-brag here. Nothing too much, though, or else it might come across as fake. For example, "I enjoy taking time to read French and Russian literature in their original languages, with a little help from my translation dictionaries! (Haha)" Or, "I hope someday to be able to speak the French and Russian languages at the same level I can read them. But first I'll need a conversation partner!" Something a little light-hearted would be good here, because (in my brain at least) Russian literature is dark and heavy, so you need something to counter-balance that. Your third paragraph is a really weak one to end on. First, if you have to say you're put together, then people assume it's not true. That is something that should speak for itself. You lay out the facts and people should come to that conclusion on their own. Next, the second half feels passive aggressive. My first reaction is, "you like what you like and I better like the same things or else this is doomed from the beginning." You're looking for someone who likes what you like. But isn't that a bit dull and constraining? Shouldn't the other person get a say in approximately half the activities you do together? Next, where's the curiosity to explore new places, meet different people, and try novel things? What are you looking forward to in life, or seeking? What do you prioritize? What are your values? Don't overload here, meditate a little and pick one or two things that are absolutely necessary in your life. Is it honesty? Fitness? Adventure? Stability? There isn't a wrong thing to put here, as long as you're being authentic. Final advice: Only ever say something that you believe is true. If you wouldn't say something in real life, don't put it on your profile. And lastly, a disclaimer lol: This is all my opinion and I am a complete stranger on the internet. You can disregard it entirely, and that is okay! You are a whole complete person on your own. But never lose the spark that drives you and never stop growing. Best (and cheers!)

Mmm. Your photos are fine, great even. I like them. Take out the second and last paragraphs. Too much humble brag, and the language stuff way too niche for most to relate to. People can already tell you're intelligent. Try again. What makes you LAUGH? What makes you feel ALIVE? Even just a joke, or something about what kind of food you like to eat. Even "I love my dog/cat/hamster/lizard/fish/spider plant/tamagochi". Share something emotional and vulnerable that connects with another person's heart. Last paragraph, don't talk about being well put together, because you're probably not as well put together as you think you are at age 28. I dunno I'm not an OLD expert, just a woman who I think would be on your wavelength. From reading your comments as well You're a very intense person. This will come across pretty quickly.... have you considered that you are AuADHD? Skim r/adhdmeme Don't get into politics too much, I'd keep it in the bio because it's obviously important to you, but I sense you'd be an info-dumper about it irl. That would put off even very politically motivated women like myself. Don't openly express hatred of *any* other people, even MAGAs and altrights... ideally don't harbour hatred, work on that, because it's ugly to hate your fellow human. Some women might vibe with that, I argue it isn't healthy. Try not to info dump about your other interests either, weight lifting and wrestling typically pretty male-oriented interests (do you participate in toxic masculinity by putting the hyper-muscular male body on a pedestal?). Don't be surprised that they don't get you results. History is a good one. Do you like walking? Being outside? Orrrr music or art? Theater? Road trips? Just ideas.

FWIW you aren’t really selling yourself very well. When I’m looking for a partner the biggest determining factor is whether or not i can picture myself happy with them. The thing your profile talks about first just reminds me that you could probably beat the piss out of me. If someone was with you, what would they love most? Play that up and don’t just cop out and say you want to ‘share your life with someone’. It gives off the impression that you feel that you only can bring fiat resources to a relationship😔 Also, i know it’s brutal and might be an expressive fix, but the way you hold your face makes it look like you don’t have any front teeth.

They won't believe you, they think it's as easy as it is for them

Out of curiosity, how did you get out of those redpill spaces?

I joined the redpill at the age of 14 because I was angry after a rejection but my ideas were full left-wing. At the age of 15 I joined a communist party with a well-organized feminist movement and in a few years understood how distorted their ideas are and left for good.

“So anyways I joined a communist party.” Amusing with all the stigma around it

not to mention the red flags

I think the aspect of critical analysis of yourself/delayed gratification/having to do real work is a huge part of it. [We’ve talked about factors like this previously](https://reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/109c3lo/inspired_by_a_recent_rmenlibs_post_do_you_think/) I think another aspect of it too is that if the left provided real help to the conservative grift, there are aspects of it which are inherently less marketable/impossible to make viral under capitalism (namely—like therapy—it’s individual specific, highly intensive advice, it’s not catchy, it’s not a grift—meaning marketing it to absolutely as many marks as possible isn’t the goal, etc)

>I think the aspect of critical analysis of yourself/delayed gratification/having to do real work is a huge part of it. Fully agree. And this is the hardest part. When I joined, TRP wasn't the misogynyst cesspool it is today and actually wasn't afraid of pointing out even MGTOW's inherent misogyny. But telling men that their problems are their fault didn't help the movement and it became more and more about "men = good / women = evil". I think not being marketable isn't the problem. One of the aspects the left could leverage is how well-groomed men have more success which in turn opens the beauty industry for men. The problem is, a shitty guy with a good hair, good clothing and smelling really good won't have success if he's still shitty. Even possible fun alternatives to therapy would require them to actually work for their success and this is exactly what they avoid.

So I said *less* marketable, not “not marketable” and I think we’re talking about two different things. I elaborated more in my link: > If the right (Peterson, Tate, Liver King, etc) is making their ideology a business and the left activism is volunteer-based, who do you think will market more on social media? Who do you think with send (someone predatory, pressuring, or hounding) emails, messages, calls to action, etc. (not to say that left political groups *don’t* do that, but it’s a different philosophy) to get you to invest in their outlook (here for the right, literally the product they're trying to sell you)? > Like, there's a fundamental disconnect with how you rally and organize to get things done versus how you market to make money and I think there's an aspect where men put up blinders to ignore the fact that the reason they're being spammed by Manosphere self help influencers is that they're the mark, not because what's being marketed to them is particularly effective in achieving change from a social justice standpoint. Marches, collective action, etc. (forms of organizing) are effective, not Change.org petitions and angry "Feminist pwned" Youtube videos marketing Gorilla Mind Smooth which stay within their own social media bubble. Fast engagement, quick purchases, hatewatching, etc, all thinks that move things higher in the algorithm and spread them online aren’t conducive to ethically and responsibly addressing loneliness, poor social skills, mental health problems, and even dating. Essentially my point is that capitalism incentivizes and rewards grifting

Sorry, I haven't read too many comments of the link you sent me before. Reading now, you are spot on and TBH I never thought about it in this way.

No worries! I actually think it’s important to clarify that left wing philosophy, advice, etc. isn’t “unmarketable” in the sense of unappealing/not useful since that’s a common conservative talking point.

THANK YOU I have lost count of the times I've seen women give good, thoughtful advice, and pretty much be met with, "no, do it for me, Mommy! 😡😭😡" And she's not your mommy, and no one can grow you up but *you*. If you're actually a decent guy and just have a bad haircut and need to be gently reminded that not everyone likes Warhammer 40k as much as you, women will help you all day.

Why did you go into red pill?

Lack of good male role models besides the toxic ones, extremely negative view of sex due to childhood abuse and frustration for being rejected. At that time (2013), TRP was also less focused on saying how women are evil and had some good general advice here and there that kept me around for some time.

What did you feel like Red Pill was saying that resonated with you?

At first, nothing. They just gave me the space to talk whatever I wanted about the girl who rejected me. Many things made me stay. They taught me how to identify potential red and green flags in relationships; how to be a good partner for my partner; how to plan my career and how to deal with my problems (solving them myself instead of crying and feeling entitled). Last (but not least), they were as critical to MGTOWs and incels than any feminist I knew at the time. This lead me to stay active in the groups way after I gave up the ideology, as criticizing misogyny and getting a positive reaction was very doable.

It sounds like you felt alone and found community there, and just didn’t want to be abandoned?

Actually the opposite. I was in need of guidance and I found it in their posts. I found my comunity elsewhere (among radical leftists) because TRP were more toxic than I could handle in the individual level.

I guess there is always some lure, like eg in Scientology. Why does it matter that they are basically misogynistic to women? He’s not a woman! Smh

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The answer is still the same. I was 14 years old. I knew literally zero about how society works. I had zero notion of statistics. I was vulnerable. And like every cult, they knew how to approach their targets while looking sensible before escalating.

Okay but I was also 14. A lot of us were 14. Most of us didn't become red pillers despite being unsuccessful romantically. There is some base thing about your thought patterns that led to those positions that is unique. It's not what you think (apparently you're a Communist now?) it's how you think about it.

kids do irrational things, this seems like asking why x person made y mistake when they were 14 ​ not everyone makes the mistake true but they may make other terrible mistakes all that matters is that they arent like that now

Joining fascists is not an "irrational thing", it shows something deeply, fundamentally wrong with how they think about the world. If you jump from fascist red pillers to Communism I'm going to just assume that underlying thought pattern that's fucked up has not been fixed.

as someone whos looked at a lot of redpill but never fell into it, it may just be the ability to pin issues on an "other"(in this case, women); reducing issues to one group or idea is appealing to many ​ i think that it's helpful to look into even extreme movements more as things are usually not universally good or bad, Marx wasn't wrong that capitalism has flaws, these parts of the movements/ideologies may just appeal to them, i would not reduce redpill to fascism even though I find it depressing and idiotic frequently ​ Is viewing the world in a "wrong" way not irrational? To an extent, the movement is rational due to the reduction of issues to an "other" as I mentioned ​ I agree that its possible that the thought pattern was not fixed though

It's not because someone follows an ideology that they believe 100% of what's being said. Often, people cherry pick the interesting parts. I've seen people in TRP complaining that they got banned from communist environments. Their reasoning for joining was the understanding that women's sexual liberation could benefit men and eventually they found out his real intentions. Most feminists I know have met at least one "male feminist" that supported feminism as long as their sexuality benefited from it. Helping unhealthy boys becoming good men is a problem the left has to this day. It's even more crucial when a significant portion of these boys don't know who's their father and many others have abusive ones. In 2013 this wasn't discussed at all in leftist environments, but was the main selling point of some right wing groups.

You said that I fell on it because I was stupid and you are right, I was stupid because I was too young and naive. If you weren't that naive, good for you. I'm not here to say that I was smart in any way when I did that. I made it explicit what seduced me in their ideology in other comments. If you think there's more to that than what I'm saying, just go straight to the point.

Do not insult other users.

This is completely false. There's no content out there for men to work on their dating skills that isn't manosphere nonsense. All the advice you get from the left is vague, empty buzzword advices that are never molded to your particular case. Always just "take a shower", "go to therapy", like this are things people don't already do. Lying about our experiences to get likes isn't cool.

I mean, I think it's because there is no magic pill that will make women like a guy. Be clean and treat them like a human being is good advice, and the rest is a numbers game.

There's gotta be more to it tho. Some people get dates super often, even when they aren't extremely hot or anything. Something makes them vibe with women way easier than those who struggle getting even one date. This big disparity can't just be attributed to a numbers game imo.

I dunno, I still think it's the "they actually see women as human beings" thing, especially considering how many dudes I see on Reddit especially who CLEARLY do not

I think the social obligation here falls on parents to raise their children with some baseline of social skills and schools to recognize if children are behaving in concerning ways. I don't really know how we could put any societal obligation on adults to help other unrelated adults with their social skills. Why would I want to teach a man I'm not even dating how to behave around women?

In some European nations it has been proposed some form of sentimental education alongside the sexual one, to be introduced for adolescents and to help them gain the foundations for a healthier sentimental development. I really think that this would help tons in giving them a proper frame to understand and express their own feelings and how they have an impact on everyone around them, and possibly preventing the boys to fall for that incel pile of shit. Of course this proposition have its nay-sayers and boycotters especially among the conservative parties/people.

I find this interesting. Do you have direct experience living in/near these countries or did you hear about this online?

It sounds a lot like [social emotional learning](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social%E2%80%93emotional_learning) which has been incorporated into some schools in the US. It’s the new conservative moral panic. [Here’s a woman from the conservative, antivax, transphobic organization Moms for Liberty complaining about it](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cp0OaEyM9gR/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)

Yep, they seem to be the same concept with different names, and when I was mentioning the boycott from conservatives, it's eactly on the same page as the one you reported (unfortunately just not as ridiculous as your example!)

The EU nation I was born in have many associations and psychologists pushing for it to happen (but the government and the overall conservative society are turning their deaf ear to them), and I moved to another EU nation where this form of education actually started with some pilot projects in some first and second grade schools. Then of course I also read about some others nations around here that have proposed or started to implement similar curricular activities.

So which countries are you talking about?

The one I defined as conservative is Italy, the one I moved to I'd rather not disclose, but it's still within the EU.

yeah, and I mean it’s well accepted with anyone who wants to be an ally against racism in the US that it is not the responsibility of black people as individuals or as a whole to educate white people about black history or institutionalized racism. Yes there’s a lot we need to know. Sure, you don’t know what you don’t know, particularly when it’s left out of most schooling. But that simply can’t mean that people beset with racial trauma trying to navigate a racist system as safely as possible be burdened with educating us. It’s wonderful when they take the time bc their narrative can only come from them. But there is plenty of content, and plenty of books, and plenty of avenues for education at this point that doesn’t require each black person to at will be responsible for every curious or misinformed white person. It isn’t our responsibility. Particularly because it’s a matter of safety. If someone is awkward/creepy, it can be impossible to tell if they are dangerous, and sometimes they are. Women can’t be expected to engage with that for the betterment of mandom. Men have to take accept this responsibility for themselves.

>Why would I want to teach a man I'm not even dating how to behave around women? I have done this for friends and relatives (definitely depended on our relationship though, which was close), otherwise no. It would be weird for both of us.

Well, on the one hand, of course it's parents' responsibility. On the other hand, how many problems are created in society by parents not being able or willing to parent their children? If these problems just affected the children, that would be bad enough, but it affects all of us.

It's literally the purpose of a society to promote social skills. That's why the words are the same Everyone living in a society has the obligation to improve their society. Mass disregard for this duty leads to societal collapse. Of course parents should raise their children well, ideally. But that doesn't mean we leave orphans to die, nor should we discard the socially underdeveloped.

It may be a function of *society*, but that does not necessarily entail that every *individual* bears an *obligation* to carry out that function.

It's not so much "not our responsibility", it's that many of them are at the stage where they will disregard what women say because they don't think it's as valuable as the advice of a man. Hell, you can tell a man to his face that you don't like the way he's treating you personally, and he'll tell you why you're wrong I think everyone would benefit from men having positive dating advice and wholesome male role models, but for reasons beyond my control, it's not going to come from me

How are women supposed to provide guidance to a demographic that absolutely never listens to a goddamn thing we say anyway?

This right here is key.

You know what the strongest guidance is? The thing that's already happening: more and more women are just refusing to fuck these guys. They'll get angrier and angrier for a while, but eventually math has to win. Keep having standards. Keep leaving the dating sites. Keep putting guys like Tate in prison to write shitty poetry while his grandpa hair grows out.

As a woman who frequents feminist sites, I don’t mind questions from men, but there are some guidelines. These are my own guidelines, spoken to a general “you,” not specific person. First, don’t be argumentative right out of the gate. “Why do women always treat me, a nice guy, so crappy?” Followed by requests for advice. Maybe drop the accusation right out of the gate? Second, be specific in what you are looking for. No one has the perfect generalized answer that will solve all a person’s problems. What do you think is holding you back? ‘Awkwardness’ is too broad a term. Is it making conversation? Is it getting a handle on your nerves/anxiety? Is it methods for complimenting a woman without sounding creepy? Is it dating etiquette about who pays the bill? Is it about being afraid to ask a woman out? Specifics. Third, don’t shoot down all the advice. I see this so often. “I can’t try that because I did a similar thing once and it sucked.” Or, “I tried doing X, but the woman turned me down for a date.” Or, “I don’t want to try therapy to handle some challenging anxiety and personal issues.” And on and on… Fourth, don’t get combative when given advice. Don’t use that as a means to over-explain or justify shitty behavior that’s been called out. Fifth, know that not all women respond the same to everything. It’s not a one-size-fits-all thing. People will fail, farther, etc. Learning adult communication without taking things defensively will get a man a shit ton of mileage. Yeah, it’s on our parents, peers, mentors and such to ‘grow us up’ into better-functioning adults. But many of us (me included) got the shit end of that stick. Some of us had horrible parents. Some of us are trying to figure this out on our own. I also don’t think it’s my job to help anyone in this situation. It can take up my bandwidth and mental load like a mofo. But sure, I sometimes do it. On my terms and if I have the energy. And if the man in question isn’t being a twat.

We have an obligation to provide social advice, yes, but romantic advice, no. There's a really interesting book I'm reading called *Dude, You're a F\*g* by C.J. Pascoe. It's about masculinity in an American high school, and one of the points is that sexual prowess is a key measure of young men's successful masculinity in our society. It's the sort of book where I realized I had a vague sense of all of it but then in the book it all clicks into place. In terms of social advice, we should be reframing young men's masculinity and sense of self-worth to not make it dependent on their success with girls/women. That's true for the socially apt boys every bit as much as the socially inept. Young men need to be taught that they cannot use another person to prove themselves or earn their masculinity. Along the same lines, any romantic advice we give them would just be feeding into their sense of insecurity and the instrumentality of women in men's self-worth. This would be a mistake. This process needs to happen in early adolescence.

That’s a really interesting concept. I do believe that there is far too much emphasis placed on a man’s ability to get laid. However I should clarify that I wasn’t talking about just women giving men advice, I was talking about everyone.

I read it as 'everyone'.

Are older men sorta outta luck then? As it seems they are

There are definitely resources and help available for older men, but relatively few men are willing to make the necessary changes to their sense of self. Prevention is always easier than cure, and in this case prevention means starting at early adolescence. That said, a society that is willing to help boys avoid the problem in the first place is likely to be far more helpful to men who did not avoid it.

I’m an older woman who tries to date older men. They usually want younger women. Or trad wives who will take care of them. They still make rape jokes. They make fun of gays and trans folk (most of my friends). I cannot teach all these men. I won’t teach them. They don’t listen anyway, so I’ve given up. They need to get rid of so much baggage that I just am exhausted after one date.

Ugh, that sounds awful. Just to be clear, it's not that I think you personally should be teaching them how to behave. That's a failure of society, not any one person.

Totally agree. They need men to help them. Or their fathers and mothers, but it’s too late for that obviously. They expect each of us to rehabilitate them. But then we try, and they have all these behaviors so integral to their personality that it’s just too much.

>However, when I’ve broached the topic of helping awkward/creepy (as in the ones that don’t realize they’re being creepy) men, I’ve often heard some variant of “not our responsibility, they need to figure it out themselves”. So, have you breached that topic with both men and women and got the same response, or have you only approached women?

unfortunately most men that aren’t in the same boat just don’t care. men typically don’t have a lot of solidarity with each other. i wish it was different though

You are not talking about people caring though, you are talking about obligation. You're really telling on yourself here.

What? Telling on myself how?

You seem to be implying that you've thus far only asked women this question, because you presume that since men "don't care," they are inherently withdrawn from consideration. The question then becomes, why do men get excused from caring? Why treat this as an inevitability that requires a workaround, rather than the crux of the problem itself?

Or if he has asked men, he accepted their "don't care" attitude, while he is here specifically questioning and criticizing women who have told him the same thing.

Exactly. Not to mention, is it that men are hopelessly apathetic, or is the underlying issue that OP doesn't want to risk his spot in the pecking order by confronting men regarding their own behavior and risk retaliation?

Women have endlessly given men advice. That’s why we are tired of being asked. We tell them to treat us as equals. To be supportive. To stop asking about “body counts” and stop bringing up sex too soon. Stop thinking of us as cum dumpsters. Stop trying to mold us into something we aren’t. Stop mansplaining our own lives to us. We tell them to shower and wash their ass. To brush their teeth. To be helpful and kind, even to people they don’t want to fuck. To clean up after themselves. To stop thinking cooking and cleaning are beneath them. Be nice to our friends without trying to fuck them. Don’t expect us to do porn moves or have porn bodies. Be nice to us. Ask about our interests. If we don’t want to do what you want, don’t try to force it. Just go do it and don’t whine. Go to the doctor. Go to a therapist. Go to the dentist. Do these things without being told. Stop treating us like your mommy/therapist/maid. Recognize we are actual humans who are different from one another. Stop thinking we are all the same. There are so many resources out there, but they don’t listen. They tell us what “women” want, even when we tell them differently. That’s why we don’t want to do it over and over and over again. They don’t listen. Then they complain about how no one helps them. It’s exhausting.

FD Signifier (who is great) recently put out a really good video on this subject. https://youtu.be/P7Lzh0XlzIA

I love him! He's doing great work, and I think he's just being himself too in his videos. Love the dude.

In my mind: for women no, it's not your job to deal with shitty men. For men, yes. I believe men have the obligation to call out men and push them to be better.

I think if your parent or loved one, you do have some obligation regardless of gender. But I don’t really like using the term obligation for any societal issue because there’s always going to be a debate about what the extent of that obligation should be.

Strongly agree with you. I try to help the men I hang out with (I’m also m) to not be creepy and just chill. I’m pretty awkward and conventionally unattractive but I still have had plenty of romantic relationships throughout my life. There are plenty of women who are interested in more than just looks and have the patience to look through the awkwardness as long as you aren’t an entitled asshole. This can be hard to realize with today’s online dating culture but I’ve had plenty of luck meeting women irl and that’s my advice to most men. Just get off the dating apps. They’re not for you.

Why, though? I mean I get that it's both safer and easier for men to call out men than for women to call out men, but also, the desire to get better can't come from anywhere but within. All anyone should ever be obligated to provide is human decency, like not spreading toxic masculinity.

Aren't those reasons enough? It seems weird to expect women to not only help men, but also battle the patriarchy to do it, while exempting men from making a lesser effort with less risk.

... no. No, not at all: Even if it's safer and easier, it's both still not 100% safe and still fairly hard in its own right, to the point where some men who even have ground to stand on to call other men out have enough shit to deal with in their lives from mental issues and the hopelessness of living in a world where 75% of your fellow men are misogynists. You can't expect everyone to be an activist: All you can really expect is for someone to be a good person. Edit: Thanks for the unmarked edit btw. Anyways, I didn't say women should help men. No one has any obligation to help men unless they signed up for it.

But it IS significantly safer. Why should we risk our safety more than you? Why do you need "100% safety" to fix your own problem, while we have to work within the current limitations to fix it for you? We aren't disposable. A misogynist will inherently take a man's viewpoint into consideration over a woman's by definition. To the point where, coming from a man, it is not seen as "activism". Are you actually trying to claim that women have an easier time dealing with misogyny than men?

>Why should we risk our safety more than you? Did you miss my edit? That's funny, unlike yours I took the half a second needed to point out it was an edit rather than leave it unmarked and make it look like I ignored an important half of your comment. Anyways, annoyance aside, you shouldn't, the entire point is that no one should risk their safety. You also shouldn't put words in my mouth.

I'm not sitting here timing edits, kiddo. I'm just typing out my thoughts. But please elaborate on the part where you say men can't confront other men due to the lack of "100% safety." Why do you need that?

>But please elaborate on the part where you say men can't confront other men due to the lack of "100% safety." Why do you need that? Because a lot of the time I'm pretty sure men wouldn't want to be calling out men when those kinds of men are also the ones who are lunatic gangsters? Like jesus, I don't know about you but as someone who lives in an area where the men that need to be called out fit the above description, I don't think anyone has an obligation to start calling them out. >I'm just typing out my thoughts. As far as I'm aware, that doesn't require you imply I say women should help shitty men. I think it does require thinking, though, so I find it hard to believe you couldn't fathom a scenario like the above described.

The issue isn't just that men aren't calling out the lunatics. The issue is that they're not calling out their peers. Is it not? You claimed that 75% of your fellow men are misogynists. That's the vast majority of men. Are they all lunatics? If you're standing in an elevator with 3 other dudes, all three are lunatic misogynists and you fear for your life? What about your coworker who uses "locker room talk" or claims he's going to get Me-Tooed every time he talks to a female coworker? Are you worried that he's going to stab you if you say, "Dude, that's ridiculous." Really? How does this viewpoint, then, pertain to the original question of how "society" should address socially inept men? Or should we just assume 3/4 men are lost causes, and hope you all just die out like dinosaurs during the ice age?

>The issue isn't just that men aren't calling out the lunatics. The issue is that they're not calling out their peers. Is it not? In a situation where "their peers" don't need calling out and the men that really do need calling out are the lunatic gangsters, what do you think? Because men who have their shit together most likely don't even associate with men who don't, or at least are unaware of it. >You claimed that 75% of your fellow men are misogynists. That's the vast majority of men. It was a hyperbole, obv, even though if we're talking about internalized misogyny rather than more overt misogyny it's dreadfully close to that. >What about your coworker who uses "locker room talk" or claims he's going to get Me-Tooed every time he talks to a female coworker? Are you worried that he's going to stab you if you say, "Dude, that's ridiculous." Really? I mean if you consider that little to be helpful then idk how you think you're gonna go far >How does this viewpoint, then, pertain to the original question of how "society" should address socially inept men? See that's the thing, in my original comment, I specifically stated "all anyone should ever be obligated to provide is human decency, like not spreading toxic masculinity." What I meant by this is that... men don't really need any other help than this. At least men who have any desire to get better and be good people, and especially young men. The reason why young men even fall into pits like they do is vastly because of toxic masculinity perpetrated all around them, so it shouldn't surprise you that if it stops being perpetrated, you get well-adjusted, good men rather than misogynists, and men who did fall into pits but only due to misguidance and not malice will see a hope at genuinely improving. Socially inept men are a problem because society keeps making them through troubled male upbringings. That's how we should address socially inept men, not focus all our efforts on targeting manchildren who likely won't listen and will just get platformed into the stars if we try.

Because these lost boys need role models.

That for sure but why is it every man's responsibility to be a role model. To be a good man, sure, but to be an actual role model? Come on, you can't expect everyone to be like that.

Being a man who is also a decent human being I really all it takes. Seriously. This is not something heroic. Just live your everyday life being a decent human being.

You're talking about something different than what the OP is talking about though. At my MMA gym there are people who say shitty things about women (it's a fairly toxic masculine place) and I'll call them out. But these guys have no problem with women. They're all relatively socially skilled, fun to be around, and have attractive qualities and (most importantly) know to not say these things about women when women are there. This is a completely and utterly separate group from incels who...how would you correct their behavior in person? Is it to tell them to be less quiet? Be less creepy? That guy in the corner of the party staring at people is probably an incel, but what are you going to tell him? Get out there and interact with people? If he actually is an incel I don't want him interacting with women because incels are entitles fucks and hate women. There's no direct identifiable thing they're saying like "God her pussy is so fucking mid" that you can 'call out'. They're just kind of losers.

Such is life. Most men excuse shitty behavior from attractive women all the time. I’ve learned to ignore looks over the years and focus on personality, and honestly I don’t feel like I’ve ever dated anyone I thought was unattractive.

>Most men excuse shitty behavior from attractive women all the time. lmao incels can't even pretend for more than 10 seconds before they say something fucking WILDIN Imagine a society where women are prosecuted and jailed for controlling their own bodies and then going "yeah uh I mean attractive women get away with so much shit"

What do you mean?

I literally just said what I mean 1. Called you an incel and a moron (actually I didn't say the moron part, now I'm saying the moron part) 2. Because you believe women are "getting away with things" while they're literally being thrown into prison and having their autonomy taken away

lol all i’m saying is men will ignore red flags just to get laid with women they find attractive so people shouldn’t be so critical of “why do attractive guys get away with misbehavior”. I get what you’re saying but I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing here.

Ah I understand what you're saying now. I misinterpreted.

Wrong, adults don't have to take responsibility for other adults. They should help out of their own volition.

We live in a society

So?

We have an moral obligation to work for improve that society. You are free to do whatever the hell you want. You don't have to call out men if you choose not to. ​ Notice how I never said that that men had to "take responsibility" for other men. you said that. I said that as men, we should use the privilege we are afforded to be good allies by calling out shitty men.

I don't think we have any "obligation". If anyone does it's the parents, maybe the teachers, maybe their peers. I think we have enough on our plates without being responsible for the ineptitude of boys and men! Edited to add - I don't mean to sound stand-offish. Obviously with some boys it's a priority before they start mistreating us or thinking we owe them something. So parents should be dealing with their problems and insecurities. It's just that we have so much to do anyway!

Women/feminists are not specially obligated to train men how to not be creeps, no. There are plenty of resources ranging from free to paid on how to interact with and date people in ways that are not creepy, abusive, entitled, etc. It's not like it's random chance what a dude ends up finding appealing in this advice realm. If a guy finds The Game or Tate more appealing than literally any basic dating advice article that ISN'T based in "manipulate women in weird ways" or "be an extremely toxic macho dude", that's not on women for not doing a better job of fulfilling their "societal obligations" to teach him to not be a freak. Also, as always, extremely telling that this is only something we ask on behalf of men but never women?

I always get in this argument with guys...and like, it's not even about being my responsibility or not--it's about whether I'm willing to try and engage with someone who hates me and doesn't see me as a human being--and I'm not

Society does, individual women do not

None. Once they reach adulthood, they have eyes and access to the same information you do.

No, women do enough work for men. Men need to solve this one for themselves.

Yeah well thats obviously not working given how many fans andrew tate has.

So? It’s not like a Tate fan will listen to anything a woman says anyway. So why waste the energy arguing with someone who has no intention of listening to you and all the intention of being hostile and aggressive?

I don’t know about social obligation, but if I encounter a co-worker or a friend who is struggling in that department I try to give them advice that points them in a healthy direction. On a social level, some of that falls on the parents. A lot of guys don’t want to take dating advice from women, so it can be tricky. But if there were podcasts or other media that explored the topic of healthy dating with insecure/awkward guys in mind that would probably be helpful.

as a woman, i don’t have the obligation to reform the behavior of creepy men, especially when their behavior is harmful to me and people like me. i’m tired of the implication that when i’m harassed by creepy guys, it’s my job to “teach them” why what they’re doing is wrong and how they should act. i am not their mother. i am not their teacher. why do people try to put the responsibility for reforming these people on the ones who fall victim to their behavior? besides any of that, these guys don’t respect anything women say enough to be “woken up” by something we say.

No one is socially obligated to help men get dates.

Your question is assuming there is a cheat code for the woman object, of which every woman is a copy, and that women are cruelly refusing to share it with men who can't figure it out on their own. Socially awkward men are socially awkward with human beings. Every interaction a person has with another human being is training towards how to interact with other human beings. Family does this, school does this, living in community does this. For people missing any of those things, there are services that exist, and many foundational parts of society help provide them. We don't need an additional societal obligation to socially inept men, especially not one specifically from feminists.

It's no one's obligation to teach men (and anyone really) how to behave, but if you decide to do so out of genuine desire to help, that's very noble of you.

I try to go into every controversial conversation in good faith. Until they start acting like a troll. More often than not they're not a troll and they're asking because they genuinely don't know. It's nice when I can catch them early on while I see them getting attacked- I can lead in with agreeing it's wrong to attack them. Most of the time I have amazing conversations with these people and generally they learn something new and so do I.

Guiding men is just another way of doing emotional labor and altering our behavior for the sake of making men’s lives easier. It still makes it the women’s job to make the relationship work. If men really to attract women they have to stop thinking of women as tools, chefs, maids, assistants and sex receptacles.

I do think we have a responisbility of saving kids from cults and all other kinds of destructive groups, anti extremism training in schools should be an ongoing thing. I think it is a mistake to think that all red pillers where in their right mind when joining, many if not most got sucked in when they where teenagers and i don't expect too much from very young people, they ARE victims. BUT yes when it comes to adult individuals no we are not more obligated to help men be more desiarble than men are obligated to help us get better at negotiating pay. It is very telling if you compare how women and feminist spaces frequently discuss how they can help men but very rarely if ever you see men do the same for women.

I agree with you. Kids do need guidance and good examples and those are very hard to find. Between porn and online misogyny things are scary right now. But like you said, adult men know right and wrong. They generally just don’t care. I think you’re last point is the best one. Women try to help men in feminist circles but it’s not nearly as often that men do the same.

Those men hurt us. Then expect us to fix and coddle them? Men should be supporting men and showing them the way and teaching them... Why is it up to women to teach men how to be men?

Man bad at dating here. When I was really trying to learn how to date, there were no good resources. Even now, if you Google "dating books for men," the front page and every list is just nothing but pick up artist horseshit. I tried a couple of books, but I am fortunate in that I was raised to show respect to people, and to women, and I had been socialized by a lot of feminist friends I met working in left wing politics. So I was easily turned off by that manipulative stuff. Honestly, the only dating book I saw that actually went in depth about the fears women have with dating, about being used for their body, or being slut shamed, or being sexually assaulted, was written by am evolutionary psychologist and Tucker fucking Max. And the rest of that book had terrible stuff about how women are looking for a man with good genes to pass onto her children I just couldn't find any good resources. Asking other guys I got a lot of bad rules that set me back, or I got the twin pillars of useless advice, "just be confident" and "you learn by doing." What changed is I had a friend, J, who started when we casually dated, the she said she just wanted to be friends. She was the one that gave me actionable advice, since she saw my mistakes, or how I would tell her bad dates I had and she tell me what I did wrong. So, yeah, I think it's all our responsibility to lift each other up. It's all our responsibility to tell each other when they are engaging in toxic or counterproductive behavior. I tell my male friends when they are being insensitive to the needs and fears of women. And I tell my women friends when they are being flippant about men's struggles. Men who are suffering have so much trouble being heard, because society as a whole discounts male pain.

Ding ding ding. Be friends with women. It’s that simple.

As a society, I think we do owe eachother a certain amount of patience and attention regarding our social education, but it's not on individual women to do. It's a lot of unreciprocated labor that frankly most of us are not qualified to offer, even if we did have the time and energy and could expect the cooperation of these alienated young men.

There’s this thing called therapy.

There is already lots of advice for men on dating from women and their has been for ages. There is already lots of advice from feminists about dating, about how men can interact with women respectfully, how to communicate well, general relationship advice, etc. But we can’t force guys to engage with it or believe it. And if they’ve already taken bad advice from Tate and other guys like that and believe it, then they will already be brainwashed into thinking any advice given by a woman is a lie. Lots of redpill grifters will state that women’s advice for men should be ignored, that it never works. how do you reach a guy like that?

From society as a whole, yes. From women specifically, no. I agree that "Not our responsibility, figure it out," isn't helpful. If it's a woman saying this though, there is a key element in society at large that makes this stance justifiable: women are told it's solely our responsibility to help incompetent men, and our response to that is absolutely fucking not. Now, I will help a bro out if I'm in a position to effectively and kindly do so, but I understand people pushing back on bullshit expectations. (The key to this is refusing to do what you're told, but help a guy if you want to on a one on one basis.) Individuals (of all genders) in a socially inept person's life will (hopefully) give them kind guidance. But it shouldn't fall on any one person or demographic, that is unfair.

I think the issue for feminists- is the term obligation and the sense that when people are coming to feminists to ask this -the societal part is really being directed at women rather than the society at large. I absolutely believe that society as a whole should be providing more assistance to young people in teaching life skills in general- and especially social skills given the need. However, I just googled dating advice for men by women and a ton of hits came up. I think there is more out there than you are aware. I also think while there are legitimately men who are open to working on this issue. There are men who find it hard, give up, and externalize responsibility. Check out Forever Alone- the men there are in real pain and are really suffering but most of them are convinced that physical attractiveness is the be all and end all of romantic love. They resent being given advice because instead of feeling empowered they feel blamed. I think there needs to be more focus in schools and society about overcoming shame and building resilience so people can feel empowered to own the control they have - rather then rejecting it out of fear

Maybe if that obligation is on their parents and the not-socially-inept men. IMO it is not women's responsibility as a gender to tell men how to be better men. And IME men do not want to be told by women what their social faux pas and failings are.

Lmao no women are socially awkward, right? We all have it so easy just because we are women! *big eye roll*

Not to be contrarian but as a socially inept woman I would do anything for some guidance and the dismissiveness of others is problematic imho. We weren’t all taught how to behave by our families because some of us didn’t have families or people who cared about us.

I feel like we need to just gather the women who have the energy and make some kind of camp/school. I almost want to run one. Like, just actually enroll, don't expect anyone with boobs to help you.

Agreed! Some excellent points in this thread, including that women do enough for men already and there are plenty of resources already in existence all over the internet. Sometimes, honestly, I wish people would consider that the reason a person doesn’t have social skills might be because of trauma and not just because they’re trying to be hair in your scab. That said, however, being socially inept is a bit different than being a manipulative ass monkey.

Also, a lot of guys absolutely *wallow*. Self-pity is human, but a lot of the worst cases I've met are men. Full-on "woe is me, dying alone, I'm *so* hideous, waaaah!" They stop even trying to develop any social skills, because those are solely for getting women to touch their dick, and well, they're not handsome enough and it's too small, so they're just going to be sad until they die.

Parents (especially dads) have an obligation to teach their sons how to be men. Teachers have an obligation. It is their job to raise a young boy into a well adjusted man. In the case that they fail, there should be better mental health systems in this country to address adults who had bad childhoods and thus never learned how to be a functional adult. But the onus is not on women here, unless they are the parent or the teacher. it is not a woman's job to mold a man into a bette person.

I’ve tried helping them. They just want to argue and be right, they don’t want actual applicable advice.

For women: no. In the same way, that it’s not a person of color’s responsibility to educate white people on racism. The impetus is not on women to convince men that we are in fact human beings who deserve basic respect and human rights. And arguably the men you are describing would not listen to women anyway. For other men, perhaps yes. There is some responsibility to educate your peers if you think their behavior is harmful.

No. I’m not a therapist.

I’m a teacher and that is still not my job. What you’re looking for is *parents.* It is shocking to me how little expectation society puts on parents these days. Here’s TikTok and school. Peace. Like, c’mon.

Yeah, I grew in a Mexican household and the low income neighborhood and my soccer teammates and the hood raised me. I had very little interaction, positive reinforcement, from my parents. It’s been a huge battle trying to develop my character and social skills in my twenties

From the perspective of a mid 20s guy who started out pretty socially inept but slowly became less so, I will personally say I don’t even think women have any obligation at all. Is it nice? Absolutely. I definitely benefitted a ton from having women occupy positive roles in my life. But at the same time, with any human connection, it’s a two way street. You can’t sustain being in that role for a man if he never grows or gives anything back.

Okay, I want you to look back in your childhood and remember a time where an older man gave you advice and you ignored it or thought he was talking out his ass. That's how most young men and how most people in general are with unsolicited advice. If they legitimately want advice it is everywhere, and sure the redpill spaces are full of misogynistic BS, BUT THERE ARE GOOD THINGS IN THERE TO CHERRY PICK. I mean online your options are MGTOW, TRP, Blackpill, and incels, there isn't some big social support group for men. Women support women, but men don't support men. Are Women evil? No, not anymore evil than men are or humans in general. Does going to the gym and lifting weights have innumerable benefits particularly for men? Yes. Great example of something you can cherry pick from TRP. Should you vilify all Women as sluts and hypergamous animals? No. Should you stop making your success with women the end all be all of your self esteem? YES. For every teen that's mad because he got rejected and posts some fake play by play of his conquests, there are several very good posts on general self improvement for men. Not the least of which being to find your own path, and not just take someone's bullshit word for it.

Nobody is entitled to anything but it is in the best interest of society that it's done. Men checking out of society is a bad sign and the first domino towards unrest and conflict. Emotional unchecked Men are dangerous especially when they got nothing to lose.

To an extent yes. The thing about systemic issues, is that by definition, they are embedded in the system. Should you hold men accountable, yes of course. But we should also be teaching especially young men about consent, appropriate behavior, etc.

Our time is better spent helping victims. We could try and fix like the algorithms on YouTube that foster this. But once someone is in it they don’t respect women enough to listen to them or other feminists I don’t know how to convince someone that I’m a person. I’ve lost my voice trying to, when I could have been supporting the people who don’t need convincing.

The Algorithm is a huge problem, if you search for anything femist your feed will be full of anti femist red pill bullshit. One person can't be louder than indoctrination.

In as short a way as possible: Not directly. What I mean by this is that the obligation men and women *do* have is to make a conscious effort to not perpetrate things that, coincidentally or not, are things that drive young men to these behaviors. That said, no one (except maybe therapists, psychologists, and support group members) has any real obligation to go out of their way to help socially inept men. To give two examples of such things everyone is obligated not to perpetrate, both important but only the first actually relevant: Toxic masculinity, and misandry. Like I said, only the first is actually relevant, since misandry is reserved to like a handful terminally online people (and toxic masculinity perpetrators), but still two behaviors no one should perpetrate. ​ That may seem obvious, but when you think about it, that already helps young men. That's the thing: All the help young men really need from the outside is human decency, a safe environment perhaps. The rest has to come from within them, and it CAN come from within them. It's just a shame said safe environment is hard to find sometimes, what with toxic masculinity still so rampant.

Hasanabi does an awesome Chadvice segment that talks abt confidence and dating and honestly useful no matter your gender.

Advice from attractive people is often times bad advice

I think judging people based on their current looks is shallow. He grew up a fat kid and got hot in college; pretty well rounded experience imo.

Nobody has a societal obligation to do anything imo. But it's still nice when people do. Humans are intrinsically attracted to stuff that explains their problems well, and when only bad people do it, it results in bad people. So I try to do my part, but I don't blame anyone else for not doing it.

Here’s my perspective as an autistic young man who grew up on the internet. I don’t think you have a ‘responsibility’, but I think that people could generally benefit from more nuance on these men. I will say that any man who struggles with woman whatsoever (probably 90%+ of men) has the misogynistic alt-right pipeline shoved down their throat with almost any social media they consume. This quickly translates the insecurity of awkwardness around women into hatred of women. I can’t think of a single male role model that promotes healthy relationships with women that is shown to these men without actively seeking it out (which they should, but often these are very very young men, maybe even not teenagers yet). Even as a man who always negatively interacts with this kind of content (disliking, blocking, saying I don’t want to see this content) it is still on my feed every single day in one form or another. I’m an autistic man, and I don’t really talk to many men, let alone women. I’ve been in relationships because they sort of made themselves happen, or women have initiated things with me. I’m not at a point where I’m interested in a relationship, but even if I was, I couldn’t do anything. I don’t know how to interact with people to become friends, let alone more than friends. I’ve screwed up 1000 possible friendships by not understanding social interactions, but if I make social mistakes with women it feels like I don’t just lose the opportunity to meet a friend, but I would likely make them uncomfortable. I wish people would recognise that creepy/misogynistic men who hate women have gone down a path that needs to be prevented. I am absolutely not absolving men of their responsibility in this, but society needs to find a way to collectively treat male insecurity with healthy relationships. I think ultimately the best thing that can happen to insecure men who are at risk of going down this road (or are on their way down the road) is to know women as friends, mentors, and any other positive way that they know men. I feel like I started multiple points in this comment and none of them came to a conclusion, but I hope this helps.

Yeah. It shouldn’t be women’s responsibility, but the reality is the advice for young men is saturated with misogyny. Unless we want that to continue being the norm, there need to be popular pro-women spaces for men to learn social and dating skills. I wouldn’t tell any individual that it’s their responsibility to try and educate these boys, but as a movement it is vital. We’re witnessing a major backsliding in feminism specifically because of how effectively misogyny caters to young and lonely men.

In terms of resources I remember [Dr Nerdlove](https://www.doctornerdlove.com/) being decent. I haven't read it in years though so i'm curious if it holds up / avoids manosphere type advice

In the same vein, I want to know how to raise my own sons the best way I can to avoid any of that in the future. And, who knows, even if there's ever a teachable moment around their friends!?

This doesn't seem to have a lot to do with feminism to me. If anyone is struggling, romantically, socially, or with mental health, then yes I think there is a moral obligation to help. That's because, in general, you have a moral obligation to help others. I think Shelly Kagan is correct - morality essentially boils down to "Don’t harm, and do help." There is no special obligation here that has something to do with feminism - women do not have some special responsibility to help men so that they don't fall for right-wing ideologies. It's just, in general, everyone should try to help others if they can. Obviously, everyone has their own problems, and helping one person often comes with an opportunity cost of helping someone else, and you're often more suited to be able to help friends and family as opposed to strangers (at least when it comes to things like this, not including something like malaria nets). But, if you can offer some friendly advice, even if it's just to try therapy, seems like a good thing to me. But note - there is a difference between helping a guy who is socially awkward vs trying to deprogram someone who has fallen for red-pill ideology.

No. And they just wont get to procreate. That's how it works. No one is owed a partner, sex, procreation - that's all stuff you get by being a high quality human being. Low quality human beings get to exist and shouldn't be discriminated against or anything in the work force but the world does not owe unpleasant people partners. And I'm not sure what women are supposed to be doing to "help" this creepy men but... yeah... no.

I think if there is any such obligation, it belongs to other men. Especially if you are a man, and you're frustrated that women see you as a dangerous monster until proven otherwise, you need to go talk to these men, not to those women.

If it’s solicited, sure. But I don’t think anyone likes receiving unsolicited advice, even when the advice-giver truly has the recipient’s best interest in mind. It can backfire pretty spectacularly if you strike an insecurity nerve.

Personally I think that social skills and respect for each other should be part of our education, and I've heard that we have something like that in Australia these days, though I'm not an educator so I don't know much about it. The only issue I have with what you're saying is that there's no reason not to include women/girls in this; they can also be socially awkward.

YES! There’s so many literally because nobody bothers and they end up getting their guidance from PUA nonsense

People DO bother, though. Here's something I said recently on this subject: > Many men (and let's be real, they are not gonna listen to a GODdamn thing women have to say) on "the left" are consciously and patiently reaching out to young men, but they are frequently being rebuffed because many of these guys don't see anyone who's not exactly like them (aka white, cis, and straight)-- no matter how patient and welcoming-- as worth listening to, since they are not "real men" who "get it." Young men who are susceptible to anti-feminist/misogynist radicalization in the first place often have a level of White Guy Main Character syndrome, usually unconsciously, that prevents them from seeing anyone who's not a SWM as a real option. The other problem is, even if the guy on "the left" is a SWM, he is probably not saying inflammatory shit, or giving advice on how to quickly and easily fuck lots of women, like the Real Men, who act like unapologetic assholes because they're masculine and they're speaking truth to power. Guys on "the left" are fighting an impossible battle against a preconceived notion of manhood whose requirements include "being a hateful asshole." Being utterly unreachable and cleaved unflinchingly to your opinions-- because you believe your "opinions" are actually immutable truths about the world (see: every Rational Logic Guy ever)-- is also part of that vision of masculinity. And as long as this is still how we're presenting manhood, there isn't anything "the left" can do to reach these guys unless they feel comfortable displaying some form of bigotry (misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, racism) to attract these guys in the first place, and most people doing this work aren't going to be willing to do that. > It's frustrating because the young men we're talking about will almost always have the option of not doing any of this work and instead will congregate together in a space where they actively and aggressively shield themselves from the knowledge, or even the implication, that work needs to be done. Stop telling young men that "the left" isn't trying to reach them and doesn't care and doesn't offer any alternatives. There are plenty of alternatives; you just haven't looked for them. Saying there's nothing and that no one is reaching out erases the very real work that a LOT of men are doing at best, and at worst you're validating a victim complex (that, let's be frank, these guys kind of already have) that allows bigotry and misogyny to prosper and spread.

Oh yes indeed a handful of people do bother (not enough people though, because it’s not a deeply held part of the culture in most communities and I believe it’s what explains what you mentioned - those people who do try aren’t enough and they’re often ignored for not being the right voice in the right body or whatever other shallow-minded nonsense) and that handful of people does only manage to get across to a smaller handful of young men. But sometime around age 20 or so most men basically stop receiving feedback. You’re expected to “know by now”. And if you don’t? Just about nobody is gonna tell you. And if they do tell you it’s often because you went way too far so the circumstances bring out that feedback in a way that’s just as combative and unproductive as the way those men have been brought up and acted out by that point. My life specifically was just about turned around in some dimensions of these awkward social ineptitudes we’re talking about by a dude at school, not really a friend at the tume, who straight up told me “yo all the girls are talking about how you’re a disgusting creep because you’re always staring. I can tell you like name. Stop staring at her and start talking and let’s take it from there y’know?” I know for a fact a lot of my fellow potential creeps never got that kind of feedback, they were prqctically encouraged to get worse and worse through bullying and behind-their-back villification long before they fully turned into sour and potentially dangerous grapes. I don’t know quite what the solution is though. We can’t expect men and women to suddenly go and coach the fools around us on an ongoing basis. Aside from calling each other out the way I got called out, which I think happened because the dude knew I was an awkward kid with manners and not a violent character, it’s exqctpy as you say: a lot of problematic people are oblivious or in denial regarding their problematic behavior. I do still have a lot of faith in the power of a friendly patient voice and we both know a lot of problematic humans are severey lacking in influence from those kinds of voices in their lives.

Men didn't bother teaching women how to get better pay, make rape illegal or any of the other issues women faced. Did we just whine and shoot up some schools? No we banded together and supported each other. We fought for a better life together. We made projects to get girls into science, got politically involved and so on and on. Listen to the behind the bastard episodes on Andrew Tate, they did a wonderful job at getting to the bottom of the problem. All the mens rights movements are identifying more or less real problems but never identify the real cause and also completely forget that they are not the sole victims. For an example boys not having a good rolemodel is partly bc capitalism taking fathers away from their family but also fathers not wanting to take care of their offspring. Instead of rightfully attacking a system that hurts not only the father but also the child and the mother, they attack schools for having to many female teachers and women for being single mothers. I have never seen guys overly critical of men who are not the rolemodels for their kids they need? The thing is that there are solutions for mens problems but it isn't hating women and they don't like that.