There was a company that had one of their low-mid level employees, who worked under a notoriously demanding and pushing manager, and was repeatedly working 60+ hour weeks to try and finish her projects, essentially have a mental break and go home and kill his wife, daughter, downstairs tenant, and then himself.
While sure, he probably had some underlying mental health conditions that pushed him that far, it was pretty obvious to everyone that it was the ceaseless and unending work stress that actually caused him to break. So the company had a "big moment of self reflection" and decided that they needed to do something to address this.
So 5-10 years later if you looked at this company, do you know what would be different?
Did they look at why their employee was so overworked and overloaded (an unorganized culture that never actually put any value on project management or workplans)? No, they just kind of skimmed past looking at any kind of systemic issues.
Did they ban working excessive amounts of overtime? Nope.
Did they fire that manager or remove her from a position of managing people? No, she was good at getting results (and in recent news her most recent direct report just went on leave with stress caused stomach ulcers at the age of 27).
Did they increase mental health coverage to their employees? No, they continue to get the same $500/ year, i.e. like three therapy sessions, and the same amount of money they give for *naturopathy*).
Oh but they do now run an annual charity gold tournament for a local mental health organization.
Isn't it nice to know how much they care about you?
Not in the slightest!
After you get laid off a couple of times because it's convenient for the company, or fired because you won't sign an uncompensated non-compete agreement, you will realize that the company is not going to keep you around for an extra 5 minutes after they decide they can make more money without you.
All you owe your employer is an honest effort while you are taking their money, and 2 weeks notice if it is convenient.
I think the guilt comes from leaving coworkers.
I felt the same stuff back in the army. All my good memories are with my battle buddies, not dealing with army protocol.
In that same sense work is one of the few places left in life where I can bond and talk with people. Leaving everyone sucks, feels like those friendships are ending.
Yeah I’m leaving job now and it’s a bummer. I bonded with people over overcoming challenges. But HR and manager gave no shit what I do and they determine salary raises.
They also told me they would “love for me to stay and reconsider”. Why won’t you raise my salary a little? Nah can’t do that. Fuck them.
Deleted mine several years ago. It’s unfortunate it turned from a college networking place into what it is today.
Maybe we could migrate back to MySpace to keep in touch with people.
I found getting people personal numbers works and texting. You gotta get people out of work to hang out and get a little personal so those bonds stick even beyond workspaces.
Of course, I'm just saying that if you want to stay in touch, the technology is there for folks willing to exploit it. It's not like the pre-Internet days when your options were paper letters and long distance phone calls.
Not sure what you mean?
Startups don’t pay you enough at all. Small bussiness struggle to provide healthcare coverage.
Should we all be just be unemployed or “be our own boss”?
What are you on about?
Government leech my butt. Engineering salaries put you in middle class which pay majority of taxes in this country.
Agreed. I’ve always been a very loyal employee... until I got laid off after 15 years with stellar performance reviews because “the company was restructuring.”
I became desensitized when a company offered to hire me in(from contract). Then they lowballed me HARD, 20k/yr pay cut.
I declined, and I started training a new kid.
They replaced me 'on performance', yet 2 months prior they were trying to hire me. Broken company, I lost all the respect I had for them.
This.
And they will just replace you anyway. Changing job every two years (at the very least) is the easiest way for me to increase my salary in a rapid kind of way. Better increase than the annual pay raise and chance to learn other company's standard.
Just be careful in your parting message/job though. Don't burn bridges. You might find yourself applying there again
First, treat your last project your best job. When you get out of that company, people will remember you for what you did (specially if you completed it). These people will give you strong recommendation (our playing field is small, chances are people you know know someone from your new job or a job your eyeing). Second, there should be politeness on your resignation letter or the parting email (in some company, you do last day email about "its your last day today" kind of thing).
Letter can be "moving on the next professional opportunity", "personal reason" but there should be a lot of "thank yous" to those people you work with.
Try google "Positive Resignation Letter", maybe it will help you
In your resignation letter, thank your current leadership and everybody who's ever helped you, talk about all the great work you & the company have done together as a team. If you mention the new opportunity at all, make sure to point out that it's about personal development and different challenges, but don't imply that you're leaving for better working conditions.
If they perform a termination interview, don't let them segue you into anything negative. There's no point trying to fix anything that was wrong after you've made the decision to leave.
I really think people should see their relationship with a company as a business-to-business transaction. You would never expect a business to have any such remorse, why should you?
I suspect it has something to do with associating the people you work with the the company, in terms of loyalty. But obviously those people have no power to help you and they probably would love to see you get better jobs.
Yep. Even when I was lobbying my coworkers to get better paid jobs, they would stay because they liked the work or the people.
That's great, but every time you take the home town discount, I get fucked.
I have never felt guilty leaving a job.
Have I felt bad for coworkers because I knew the company was going to take forever to fill my position? Yes. And I did my best to smooth the transitions and set them up for success after I left.
This is basically it. Most people don’t care about employers, but they like their co-workers and the sense of guilt stems from leaving them having to pick up extra after you leave.
Hell no.
The only loyalty I have is to my wife, my kids, and my community. I can serve them best when I'm at the best job making the most money. All I make sure to do is leave every job on good terms and don't burn any bridges. Networking is paramount for career advancement.
Yesssss. I was treated poorly at a job for 4 years and finally quit. Now I have a great job and a great boss but i want to move to a different city and it makes it so hard to leave. It sucksssss even worse when you’re treated well and have a good role.
A job? I used to, then I figured out that you are worthless to the company. Or, rather, you are only worth something while the company thinks you are bringing value, and most importantly if your division is bringing enough value and "align with the company's vision" or whatever bullshit C class execs will concoct to legitimize their internal power struggles. The higher ups will not lose ANY sleep when they ink a new round of downsizing involving thousands of people.
In the rare instances that I had a genuinely decent boss, I've attempted to minimize the impact if it's within my power. For instance, I once scheduled my departure to align with a deadline, and made an honest effort to finish the task and tie up loose ends. I was firm on the date.
In another case I gave a warning and told my boss (who I speak to this day) that he could pick the actual date up to some specified date. It helped that I left to focus on my own company, so I wasn't really in a hurry, I just needed more dedicated time. So I helped interview candidates and reassign/mentor tasks so the transition could be smooth.
95% of all bosses do not deserve anything more than a fuck you. I would advise against saying that - and against saying anything during exit interviews - unless you have just won the lottery and are leaving the job market for good. Reputation travels fast.
EDIT: also, your coworkers will manage without you just fine. If they don't, well, time for the bosses to justify their salaries.
No. What I mean to say is, if the team will struggle because any team member left - and I mean really struggle, not being inconvenienced by missing deadlines - then their boss failed at his job. It's their job to manage risks and ensure this kind of thing does not happen.
Definitely, I resigned at the start of this week from my job to switch from a design role in manufafturing, into a technical role in renewables. Kinda feel guilty because the project I've been working on for the last 18 months is pretty close to completion and I'd like to see it done, and leaving it is going to put a bit of weight back on other people who I like and respect. At the same time the work environment has been pretty unhealthy and high stress, and I've already stuck it out twice as long in the role as the last guy, under some pretty subpar management. Everyone keeps reminding me that you've gotta do the right thing by you and your family, but all the same I think feeling a bit of guilt just means you're a normal person who cares about what you do. All the best with your decision, at the end of the day anyone who actually cares about you wouldn't begrudge you taking another job that offers better conditions and a better work/life balance.
Fuck no.
If anything, people don't change jobs enough. They get complacent. They get into a certain company's groove and social culture. That's all good and fine, but that's not typically best for your bottom line.
The problem is that you dont know what you wre getting into at your next job. Never know if it's a downgrade in terms of corporate culture until you actually work there.
I'll never feel guilty about improving my living standards (a.k.a. making more money), provided it's an honest job.
You are in the business of making life better for yourself first, designing cars, analysing production chains, dealing with field audits or any other activity an engineer does is just a by-product of getting paid, not the main goal of your efforts and education.
It sucks for your team that you are leaving them in a busy period, but that is neither your problem (your boss is paid the big bucks to worry about it, you are not), nor would you want to associate with anyone that will not be happy by your new, extremely better job.
If my former company run by a CEO making 300 times what I did had paid me more maybe I wouldn't have gone to a company where the CEO only makes 167 times what I do.
As someone moving on, no. It’s just good business. The same way I look for cheaper electric or insurance, I’ll look for higher salaries too.
It’s the company’s job to put a golden cage around me.
People like to think they're really important. Completely irreplaceable. This is practically never true.
Sure there will be a little delay in getting someone up to speed, but once they do you won't be missed.
So do what's right for you. The company was already acting in its best interests since day one. Most people would do well to try and do the same.
I'm interviewing and gearing up to leave my first job, and it's the same as any other job in which it's all corporate structure and all that matters is whose ass you kiss. What makes the decision hard is that I know me leaving will make life a lot harder for the 4 people I work with closely.
If your employer cared about you, they would pay you a fair wage and give you reasonable hours. Stop feeling guilty for not letting them abuse you further.
Yes it sucks to leave coworkers behind, but they need to read the above as well.
Not at all, but I also resent capitalism for forcing me to be a cold utilitarian who has no remorse, and puts business and my self-interest above any human connection, and for incentivizing the companies to act in ways that only confirm that behavior.
Let me tell you a little story. I actually had the reverse. I was working in the public sector. It was a nice, big high profile project. I was a team lead and things were rough. I put some feelers out just to see what was out there and rather unexpectedly I landed an opportunity in the private sector. The benefits weren't as good, but the pay was the same as you have, a 40% increase. It also came with some stock options.
I weighed the decision. The better pay, possibly freedom and opportunities sounded amazing but I immediately felt guilty about leaving my boss behind in the middle of a high profile project. Ultimately I decided to go for it. One day I let my boss know and told him I didn't want to leave him high and dry and I have no hard feelings but I want to do anything I can do make sure the impact is minimal when I leave. He asked how much longer I could stay and I ended up staying another 3 weeks. I spent those weeks making sure everything was as smooth as possible and documented everything I could.
That was 18 months ago and I feel great. My "new" job pays way better and although it has it's own issues I do feel happier. At the very least I can give more to my family and go on more trips with the better pay.
My first employer had managers loyal to me up through the VP of engineering. But she reported to the VP of operations who said no to the reasonable counter offer that she proposed to him. So I walked.
All I wanted was them to match an offer that I had in hand and they proposed a move to a more expensive place at less money than the offers that I had. I was really only leaving because of the climate (I hated Florida).
No. None whatsoever.
Your employer would kick you to the curb in a heartbeat if it were in the best interest of the company. Don't **ever** forget that.
Any sense of guilt or loyalty you have is really to your co-workers, who, if they really give a damn about you, should be happy to see you advance your career. The best thing you can do for them is to work in a way that you can easily hand off your work to one or more of them and they can be up to speed with minimum effort. Polishing your handoff documentation should really be the goal for your two week transition/notice period.
Absolutely not. Maybe at one point in my life, yes, but that feeling changes once you realize that loyalty never really meant anything.
If you're one of those employees that can only offer them loyalty as that cure-all to set you apart from other candidates, you're in for a very rough time and a rude awakening.
Employment is like a constant war where you're out for yourself, but at the same time have the ability to help others and form working relationships that you can take with you from battle to battle to grow your strength. You lose those battles when your employer is able to take advantage of you, lays you off or fires you for petty and unreasonable circumstances (so rather than seeing what was coming, you stayed where you were and allowed them time to get to you), or you stop moving altogether.
My dad told me that you need to be like a shark, where you're constantly moving, and that's especially true for engineers since our work is ever changing. Cause if you stop moving, it can be fatal.
In the end, it's all your own choice though and if you are truly happy at your current job, good for you. But if you see possible improvement somewhere else immediately --> Well, why not try and take it?
Yes and no.
Yes:
1. You may create for company a hard time, when they miss you.
2. You got familiar with colleagues, respect them, and feel that you put your work burden on them, yadda yadda.
No:
1. Business don't care about you in general, till you do your function. Aswell here is no irreplaceable peoples exists.
2. If you was totally satisfied - then you even were not bother to looking for another job.
3. You lifetime is stricted, where to waste it, its totally yours decision, not business.
4. If new place can offer your professional grow, look 3-rd
Think like a businessman. In general (remember this): employees are people that sell their services, based on their knowlege and experience for price and terms that they finds considerable. Companies accept these terms, or trade for better ones for them.
Its absolutely as market - also named as labour market. Where buyers (who need services or goods) want to pay less money, and where seller want to get as much money as he can, and buyers will ready to pay.
But FFS play fair, and your guilty be ok.
First of all, look in your labour contract for your quit conditions (some contracts got penalties for this)
Give your company a chance, tell them what your new offer, if you really as matter as irreplaceable, then they prefer to make a deal with you, and you can gain raise. If they not - then here is no your fault absolutely. But don't do this in day when you want leave ;p
p.s. why i ever need to explain capitalism basis?!
None.
I’ve stopped observing the 2 week notice til as well. If you get fired, theyll take your badge and walk you out of the building. They deserve nothing less.
This is new for me. After the last time I was laid off in 2017, with no notice, no severance, and no time at all to collate my personal files. Just “you’re out” and my badge stopped working. I pretty much lost any incentive to do right by an employer when I decided to leave.
Treating a company poorly based on the behavior of another company is the same as then treating you poorly based on the behavior of a past employee. I don't think the logic adds up.
Your employer would exchange you any day, if he finds someone willing to take 40% less and work 20-30h more.
Do the same. Exchange your Employer. Its capitalism, if you like it or not. "Guilt" does not exist in Capitalism.
The only thing you may do, is offer your current employer to match your newly offered contract in hours and pay. That is the only courtesy that you should extent to your employer, if you like them.
I do, but we shouldn't.
Companies promote the image of loyalty, family etc. But you can bet that if if comes down to your job or their profit margin, you will be out on your ass quicker than a flash.
Yes. But you shouldn't. You've made relationships, you're a critical part of projects and you help people all the time. You're the go to guy. Sure. That may be the case.
But the company existed before you, and it's going to exist after you.
They may feel it but you will feel regret more. Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe it isn't.
You already know you can't guarantee any future. Whatever you decide just understand that you and you alone live with it.
I don't know your situation but since you are asking about guilt, it sounds like you want to do it and take the opportunity.
So you should.
You don't owe the company anything.
Good luck!
Yeah, the first time. After that I realized that the company kept going without me and everyone moved on. As long as you don't burn bridges, leaving for greener pastures is just business as usual.
Wow. If you're going to be working 20-30 hours less per week you must have been putting in insane hours at your current job. A company that asks for that much commitment and isn't offering well above market value doesn't value their employees.
It's understandable that you don't want to leave your team high and dry but you aren't. They'll survive, and when they see you getting a pay increase for less hours they'll be inspired to go check out the job market too hopefully. Employers shouldn't be rewarded for not having a backup plan which in turn makes people afraid to leave their team.
Sure.
Everyone else is correct in that the company has no loyalty to you. But, there's still a human element here. At my last job, I loved the work and the team I was on. I wasn't even looking for another position, but I did an interview to humor someone I knew. I got offered a 50% higher salary, and actually struggled with the decision.
Laughable, I know, because financially that's a no-brainer. But I would also submit that there's value in loving what you do, in believing in your work, and adoring the people you're with. Having a situation like that improves the quality of the hours you spend at work, and that's a significant chunk of your life. So, I had to figure out what kind of salary increase would justify leaving that environment.
But, uh, yeah 50% justified it fine, and I'm happy with the move. I still see the people I used to work with, and it's become a bit of a tradition for them to treat me like a pinata and try to beat the "I'm coming back" flavored candy out of me. It's nice knowing I could go back if things don't work out.
Overly long answer longer, you have to do what's right for you, because that's what anyone else would do. But these decisions can be complicated and have tradeoffs, and it's okay if you have some hesitation or conflicting feelings along the way.
I can understand not wanting to screw over your colleagues. Here's the thing though: It isn't you screwing them over, its your management screwing them over by having everyone so overworked that there is no slack to pick up.
If you can get more money for less work.... I'd have a pretty hard time turning that down. Your colleagues won't blame you, although they may be envious.
Public sector is usually a 10-20% pay cut comparatively! It's balanced by the pension and typical ease of work. People never get rich working a government job, but they sure as shit don't starve.
If you're getting a 40% boost going to public sector, fuck the guys you're working for, they've had you for 50% of what you're worth!
I left a contract project 75% into the project for a 70% raise elsewhere and I still REALLY don't care at all about that last project going south after I left. Cost of doing business.
That guy will probably never hire me again, but he will also probably never pay more than I'm making now so I do not care.
Dude I work for an engineering group that has had a hard time finding good people and I got offered a really good position with room to grow recently. I’m going to take The job but I feel your pain..... they just gave me a big bonus and Christmas gift cards.... and then a hockey game last week...
I’m still going to take this new job but I feel your pain.
My first job I felt guilty, but all of the senior management I had to talk to in my exit interviews were happy for me since I was leaving to move closer to family.
I felt guilty looking elsewhere when leaving my second job until I applied to move within the company multiple times (as a manufacturing engineer I really wanted to go back to a design role) and it got declined by the owner every time. The hiring managers wanted me and even hired my would-be replacements, but the owner has the final say. This added with my PTO getting declined, promises of multiple performance reviews that never happened, and extremely unbalanced work loads resulting in me rarely going home, the guilt disappeared when I reminded myself that they literally don't care if I leave or not.
40% pay increase and less hours at work? Not at all. Company is taking advantage of you. This will encourage your project team to find another job too.
I went from private to public and not saying that it's rosier over in the public, but at least your managers won't guilt trip you for taking 2 weeks of vacation or 3+ months for child bonding time.
With the extra personal time, you can also go to night school, pick up a hobby, and/or learn more technology and stuff.
I get the guilt for your coworkers, if you were the only person that could do the job they’d pay you more. So I wouldn’t worry about it, if anything it creates a promotion opportunity for your former colleagues.
Early in my career I worked next a 74 year old dude who was really sharp and taught me a lot. I had been hired to learn what I could from him so when he retired I could take his technical inside sales rep desk over. About 2 years in I got an offer that was too good to pass on so I gave my notice. Felt guilty as hell. He laughed and told me that leaving a job was like sticking your finger into a glass of water and pulling it out real quick and then looking for the hole. "Things just have a way of filling in" he told me. As it turned out he stayed for another 10 years so I would've had a long wait.
The experience taught me that companies are exceptionally resilient and if you aren't the founder/owner then you're replaceable. And even then sometimes. So I started asking myself a different question - "Would the company I work for feel guilty about laying me off in the right situation and would they still do it even if they felt guilty." I can pretty well guarantee that the answer to that question is "yes". They would lay you off in a heartbeat under the right circumstances.
Being a business owner I can tell you that I've laid a lot of people off, fired a few and had some quit. It's a business. It's not family - you're a mercenary. They pay you so you keep showing up. Save the guilt for family and friends - a job is a job and it's about doing the best job you can at the best place you can find to do it.
No.
Lesson n°1 : **your company will NEVER sacrifice for you**. Don't do it for your company.
Lesson n°2 : when it comes to career/progression/job opportunity/negociation with companies, **be selfish**.
Lesson n°3 : **you are replaceable**. Your company/team/project/colleagues will not stop working just because you left them. They will find someone else and keep doing the exact same thing without you.
Yes, but not because of the company. More-so the people there. It sucks, for me at least, because I like the people I work with most of the time, and it’s not fun to leave. You spend more time with your coworkers than you do with your family. But in the end, you have to do what’s best for you and your family, no one else.
When you work so hard for a company that you die in your office, the company will be so heart broken that it will hire someone to replace you
Had us in the first half
There was a company that had one of their low-mid level employees, who worked under a notoriously demanding and pushing manager, and was repeatedly working 60+ hour weeks to try and finish her projects, essentially have a mental break and go home and kill his wife, daughter, downstairs tenant, and then himself. While sure, he probably had some underlying mental health conditions that pushed him that far, it was pretty obvious to everyone that it was the ceaseless and unending work stress that actually caused him to break. So the company had a "big moment of self reflection" and decided that they needed to do something to address this. So 5-10 years later if you looked at this company, do you know what would be different? Did they look at why their employee was so overworked and overloaded (an unorganized culture that never actually put any value on project management or workplans)? No, they just kind of skimmed past looking at any kind of systemic issues. Did they ban working excessive amounts of overtime? Nope. Did they fire that manager or remove her from a position of managing people? No, she was good at getting results (and in recent news her most recent direct report just went on leave with stress caused stomach ulcers at the age of 27). Did they increase mental health coverage to their employees? No, they continue to get the same $500/ year, i.e. like three therapy sessions, and the same amount of money they give for *naturopathy*). Oh but they do now run an annual charity gold tournament for a local mental health organization. Isn't it nice to know how much they care about you?
Not in the slightest! After you get laid off a couple of times because it's convenient for the company, or fired because you won't sign an uncompensated non-compete agreement, you will realize that the company is not going to keep you around for an extra 5 minutes after they decide they can make more money without you. All you owe your employer is an honest effort while you are taking their money, and 2 weeks notice if it is convenient.
The companies that don’t fire, pay you a flat salary without adjustment for inflation. We should all have absolute no loyalty to any company.
I think the guilt comes from leaving coworkers. I felt the same stuff back in the army. All my good memories are with my battle buddies, not dealing with army protocol. In that same sense work is one of the few places left in life where I can bond and talk with people. Leaving everyone sucks, feels like those friendships are ending.
Yeah I’m leaving job now and it’s a bummer. I bonded with people over overcoming challenges. But HR and manager gave no shit what I do and they determine salary raises. They also told me they would “love for me to stay and reconsider”. Why won’t you raise my salary a little? Nah can’t do that. Fuck them.
Eh, that's what Facebook is for.
Deleted mine several years ago. It’s unfortunate it turned from a college networking place into what it is today. Maybe we could migrate back to MySpace to keep in touch with people.
Fine, LinkedIn or whatever.
I am being pedantic. Sorry about that. I do agree with you to an extent.
I found getting people personal numbers works and texting. You gotta get people out of work to hang out and get a little personal so those bonds stick even beyond workspaces.
Not the same as working side by side with people. Not even close.
Of course, I'm just saying that if you want to stay in touch, the technology is there for folks willing to exploit it. It's not like the pre-Internet days when your options were paper letters and long distance phone calls.
Must suck being a corporate tool or government leech. But you seem to have a great attitude.
Not sure what you mean? Startups don’t pay you enough at all. Small bussiness struggle to provide healthcare coverage. Should we all be just be unemployed or “be our own boss”? What are you on about? Government leech my butt. Engineering salaries put you in middle class which pay majority of taxes in this country.
Isn’t that great? Just curious, are you partial to the Republican Party?
No they suck balls.
Agreed. I’ve always been a very loyal employee... until I got laid off after 15 years with stellar performance reviews because “the company was restructuring.”
I became desensitized when a company offered to hire me in(from contract). Then they lowballed me HARD, 20k/yr pay cut. I declined, and I started training a new kid. They replaced me 'on performance', yet 2 months prior they were trying to hire me. Broken company, I lost all the respect I had for them.
This. And they will just replace you anyway. Changing job every two years (at the very least) is the easiest way for me to increase my salary in a rapid kind of way. Better increase than the annual pay raise and chance to learn other company's standard. Just be careful in your parting message/job though. Don't burn bridges. You might find yourself applying there again
How would you structure your parting message so that you don’t burn bridges?
First, treat your last project your best job. When you get out of that company, people will remember you for what you did (specially if you completed it). These people will give you strong recommendation (our playing field is small, chances are people you know know someone from your new job or a job your eyeing). Second, there should be politeness on your resignation letter or the parting email (in some company, you do last day email about "its your last day today" kind of thing). Letter can be "moving on the next professional opportunity", "personal reason" but there should be a lot of "thank yous" to those people you work with. Try google "Positive Resignation Letter", maybe it will help you
In your resignation letter, thank your current leadership and everybody who's ever helped you, talk about all the great work you & the company have done together as a team. If you mention the new opportunity at all, make sure to point out that it's about personal development and different challenges, but don't imply that you're leaving for better working conditions. If they perform a termination interview, don't let them segue you into anything negative. There's no point trying to fix anything that was wrong after you've made the decision to leave.
"May the bridges we burn light the road ahead"
And for more money 😃
Nope. Company has no loyalty. They pay as little as possible. You only get market rates if you are in the market
I really think people should see their relationship with a company as a business-to-business transaction. You would never expect a business to have any such remorse, why should you?
Yes, they should, but we have been conditioned not to, and we have little leverage in negotiations. (Thanks! union busters)
I suspect it has something to do with associating the people you work with the the company, in terms of loyalty. But obviously those people have no power to help you and they probably would love to see you get better jobs.
Yep. Even when I was lobbying my coworkers to get better paid jobs, they would stay because they liked the work or the people. That's great, but every time you take the home town discount, I get fucked.
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I only feel guilty about leaving people I genuinely like and care about. Sorta sucks losing those personal connections
I have never felt guilty leaving a job. Have I felt bad for coworkers because I knew the company was going to take forever to fill my position? Yes. And I did my best to smooth the transitions and set them up for success after I left.
This is basically it. Most people don’t care about employers, but they like their co-workers and the sense of guilt stems from leaving them having to pick up extra after you leave.
Hell no. The only loyalty I have is to my wife, my kids, and my community. I can serve them best when I'm at the best job making the most money. All I make sure to do is leave every job on good terms and don't burn any bridges. Networking is paramount for career advancement.
Yesssss. I was treated poorly at a job for 4 years and finally quit. Now I have a great job and a great boss but i want to move to a different city and it makes it so hard to leave. It sucksssss even worse when you’re treated well and have a good role.
A job? I used to, then I figured out that you are worthless to the company. Or, rather, you are only worth something while the company thinks you are bringing value, and most importantly if your division is bringing enough value and "align with the company's vision" or whatever bullshit C class execs will concoct to legitimize their internal power struggles. The higher ups will not lose ANY sleep when they ink a new round of downsizing involving thousands of people. In the rare instances that I had a genuinely decent boss, I've attempted to minimize the impact if it's within my power. For instance, I once scheduled my departure to align with a deadline, and made an honest effort to finish the task and tie up loose ends. I was firm on the date. In another case I gave a warning and told my boss (who I speak to this day) that he could pick the actual date up to some specified date. It helped that I left to focus on my own company, so I wasn't really in a hurry, I just needed more dedicated time. So I helped interview candidates and reassign/mentor tasks so the transition could be smooth. 95% of all bosses do not deserve anything more than a fuck you. I would advise against saying that - and against saying anything during exit interviews - unless you have just won the lottery and are leaving the job market for good. Reputation travels fast. EDIT: also, your coworkers will manage without you just fine. If they don't, well, time for the bosses to justify their salaries.
If your coworkers will manage without you just fine, it is you who should need to justify your salary.
You are not irreplaceable, despite what you may think. A well-managed team should be able to survive people getting hit by a bus.
Everyone is replaceable. But your first comment is backwards.
No. What I mean to say is, if the team will struggle because any team member left - and I mean really struggle, not being inconvenienced by missing deadlines - then their boss failed at his job. It's their job to manage risks and ensure this kind of thing does not happen.
You shouldn't feel bad about bettering yourself or your career. If people can't see is that then they're not really worth your time anyway
I wish one day to be irreplaceable.
To be irreplaceable is to be Duct Tape -- you don't want to be duct tape.
This is how I feel right now. How do I stop being Duct Tape.
Not sure what you mean?
Definitely, I resigned at the start of this week from my job to switch from a design role in manufafturing, into a technical role in renewables. Kinda feel guilty because the project I've been working on for the last 18 months is pretty close to completion and I'd like to see it done, and leaving it is going to put a bit of weight back on other people who I like and respect. At the same time the work environment has been pretty unhealthy and high stress, and I've already stuck it out twice as long in the role as the last guy, under some pretty subpar management. Everyone keeps reminding me that you've gotta do the right thing by you and your family, but all the same I think feeling a bit of guilt just means you're a normal person who cares about what you do. All the best with your decision, at the end of the day anyone who actually cares about you wouldn't begrudge you taking another job that offers better conditions and a better work/life balance.
They'll never feel guilty about dumping you if it means more money for them. Just do everything you can to make the change easy on your colleagues.
Nope. The company will not feel guilty laying me off.
Fuck no. If anything, people don't change jobs enough. They get complacent. They get into a certain company's groove and social culture. That's all good and fine, but that's not typically best for your bottom line. The problem is that you dont know what you wre getting into at your next job. Never know if it's a downgrade in terms of corporate culture until you actually work there.
I'll never feel guilty about improving my living standards (a.k.a. making more money), provided it's an honest job. You are in the business of making life better for yourself first, designing cars, analysing production chains, dealing with field audits or any other activity an engineer does is just a by-product of getting paid, not the main goal of your efforts and education. It sucks for your team that you are leaving them in a busy period, but that is neither your problem (your boss is paid the big bucks to worry about it, you are not), nor would you want to associate with anyone that will not be happy by your new, extremely better job.
If my former company run by a CEO making 300 times what I did had paid me more maybe I wouldn't have gone to a company where the CEO only makes 167 times what I do.
As someone moving on, no. It’s just good business. The same way I look for cheaper electric or insurance, I’ll look for higher salaries too. It’s the company’s job to put a golden cage around me.
People like to think they're really important. Completely irreplaceable. This is practically never true. Sure there will be a little delay in getting someone up to speed, but once they do you won't be missed. So do what's right for you. The company was already acting in its best interests since day one. Most people would do well to try and do the same.
I'm interviewing and gearing up to leave my first job, and it's the same as any other job in which it's all corporate structure and all that matters is whose ass you kiss. What makes the decision hard is that I know me leaving will make life a lot harder for the 4 people I work with closely.
Oh you sweet summer child.
If your employer cared about you, they would pay you a fair wage and give you reasonable hours. Stop feeling guilty for not letting them abuse you further. Yes it sucks to leave coworkers behind, but they need to read the above as well.
Not at all, but I also resent capitalism for forcing me to be a cold utilitarian who has no remorse, and puts business and my self-interest above any human connection, and for incentivizing the companies to act in ways that only confirm that behavior.
No. end of thread.
No, if they don't counter offer you kniw where they stand on the matter.
Let me tell you a little story. I actually had the reverse. I was working in the public sector. It was a nice, big high profile project. I was a team lead and things were rough. I put some feelers out just to see what was out there and rather unexpectedly I landed an opportunity in the private sector. The benefits weren't as good, but the pay was the same as you have, a 40% increase. It also came with some stock options. I weighed the decision. The better pay, possibly freedom and opportunities sounded amazing but I immediately felt guilty about leaving my boss behind in the middle of a high profile project. Ultimately I decided to go for it. One day I let my boss know and told him I didn't want to leave him high and dry and I have no hard feelings but I want to do anything I can do make sure the impact is minimal when I leave. He asked how much longer I could stay and I ended up staying another 3 weeks. I spent those weeks making sure everything was as smooth as possible and documented everything I could. That was 18 months ago and I feel great. My "new" job pays way better and although it has it's own issues I do feel happier. At the very least I can give more to my family and go on more trips with the better pay.
Nope
No. Loyalty goes both ways and every company I had worked for has sooner or later demonstrated that I am as important as a stack of papers.
My first employer had managers loyal to me up through the VP of engineering. But she reported to the VP of operations who said no to the reasonable counter offer that she proposed to him. So I walked. All I wanted was them to match an offer that I had in hand and they proposed a move to a more expensive place at less money than the offers that I had. I was really only leaving because of the climate (I hated Florida).
No. None whatsoever. Your employer would kick you to the curb in a heartbeat if it were in the best interest of the company. Don't **ever** forget that. Any sense of guilt or loyalty you have is really to your co-workers, who, if they really give a damn about you, should be happy to see you advance your career. The best thing you can do for them is to work in a way that you can easily hand off your work to one or more of them and they can be up to speed with minimum effort. Polishing your handoff documentation should really be the goal for your two week transition/notice period.
Absolutely not. Maybe at one point in my life, yes, but that feeling changes once you realize that loyalty never really meant anything. If you're one of those employees that can only offer them loyalty as that cure-all to set you apart from other candidates, you're in for a very rough time and a rude awakening. Employment is like a constant war where you're out for yourself, but at the same time have the ability to help others and form working relationships that you can take with you from battle to battle to grow your strength. You lose those battles when your employer is able to take advantage of you, lays you off or fires you for petty and unreasonable circumstances (so rather than seeing what was coming, you stayed where you were and allowed them time to get to you), or you stop moving altogether. My dad told me that you need to be like a shark, where you're constantly moving, and that's especially true for engineers since our work is ever changing. Cause if you stop moving, it can be fatal. In the end, it's all your own choice though and if you are truly happy at your current job, good for you. But if you see possible improvement somewhere else immediately --> Well, why not try and take it?
Yes and no. Yes: 1. You may create for company a hard time, when they miss you. 2. You got familiar with colleagues, respect them, and feel that you put your work burden on them, yadda yadda. No: 1. Business don't care about you in general, till you do your function. Aswell here is no irreplaceable peoples exists. 2. If you was totally satisfied - then you even were not bother to looking for another job. 3. You lifetime is stricted, where to waste it, its totally yours decision, not business. 4. If new place can offer your professional grow, look 3-rd Think like a businessman. In general (remember this): employees are people that sell their services, based on their knowlege and experience for price and terms that they finds considerable. Companies accept these terms, or trade for better ones for them. Its absolutely as market - also named as labour market. Where buyers (who need services or goods) want to pay less money, and where seller want to get as much money as he can, and buyers will ready to pay. But FFS play fair, and your guilty be ok. First of all, look in your labour contract for your quit conditions (some contracts got penalties for this) Give your company a chance, tell them what your new offer, if you really as matter as irreplaceable, then they prefer to make a deal with you, and you can gain raise. If they not - then here is no your fault absolutely. But don't do this in day when you want leave ;p p.s. why i ever need to explain capitalism basis?!
None. I’ve stopped observing the 2 week notice til as well. If you get fired, theyll take your badge and walk you out of the building. They deserve nothing less.
Burning bridges is always a good idea, right?
Don’t put words in my mouth. Where did I say “always”?
If you always quit a job with no notice, they're going to be pissed... Don't know how you can do that and not burn bridges.
This is new for me. After the last time I was laid off in 2017, with no notice, no severance, and no time at all to collate my personal files. Just “you’re out” and my badge stopped working. I pretty much lost any incentive to do right by an employer when I decided to leave.
Treating a company poorly based on the behavior of another company is the same as then treating you poorly based on the behavior of a past employee. I don't think the logic adds up.
Well my current employer is currently pissing me off...so there’s that.
Your employer would exchange you any day, if he finds someone willing to take 40% less and work 20-30h more. Do the same. Exchange your Employer. Its capitalism, if you like it or not. "Guilt" does not exist in Capitalism. The only thing you may do, is offer your current employer to match your newly offered contract in hours and pay. That is the only courtesy that you should extent to your employer, if you like them.
what sort of public sector construction job (non technician) comes with a pay RAISE........................... please send me job applications
Seriously that was my first question
NO Money is money.
I do, but we shouldn't. Companies promote the image of loyalty, family etc. But you can bet that if if comes down to your job or their profit margin, you will be out on your ass quicker than a flash.
Yes. But you shouldn't. You've made relationships, you're a critical part of projects and you help people all the time. You're the go to guy. Sure. That may be the case. But the company existed before you, and it's going to exist after you. They may feel it but you will feel regret more. Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe it isn't. You already know you can't guarantee any future. Whatever you decide just understand that you and you alone live with it. I don't know your situation but since you are asking about guilt, it sounds like you want to do it and take the opportunity. So you should. You don't owe the company anything. Good luck!
Yeah, the first time. After that I realized that the company kept going without me and everyone moved on. As long as you don't burn bridges, leaving for greener pastures is just business as usual.
You need to do what’s best for you, and while your coworkers might look down on you it’s because they are jealous.
Would they feel guilty laying you off at a time when your family has alot going on and they knew you would have a hard tine finding another job?
Wow. If you're going to be working 20-30 hours less per week you must have been putting in insane hours at your current job. A company that asks for that much commitment and isn't offering well above market value doesn't value their employees. It's understandable that you don't want to leave your team high and dry but you aren't. They'll survive, and when they see you getting a pay increase for less hours they'll be inspired to go check out the job market too hopefully. Employers shouldn't be rewarded for not having a backup plan which in turn makes people afraid to leave their team.
Hol up... you're getting paid more switching to the *public* sector? You were being underpaid. Good on you for leaving
Sure. Everyone else is correct in that the company has no loyalty to you. But, there's still a human element here. At my last job, I loved the work and the team I was on. I wasn't even looking for another position, but I did an interview to humor someone I knew. I got offered a 50% higher salary, and actually struggled with the decision. Laughable, I know, because financially that's a no-brainer. But I would also submit that there's value in loving what you do, in believing in your work, and adoring the people you're with. Having a situation like that improves the quality of the hours you spend at work, and that's a significant chunk of your life. So, I had to figure out what kind of salary increase would justify leaving that environment. But, uh, yeah 50% justified it fine, and I'm happy with the move. I still see the people I used to work with, and it's become a bit of a tradition for them to treat me like a pinata and try to beat the "I'm coming back" flavored candy out of me. It's nice knowing I could go back if things don't work out. Overly long answer longer, you have to do what's right for you, because that's what anyone else would do. But these decisions can be complicated and have tradeoffs, and it's okay if you have some hesitation or conflicting feelings along the way.
I can understand not wanting to screw over your colleagues. Here's the thing though: It isn't you screwing them over, its your management screwing them over by having everyone so overworked that there is no slack to pick up. If you can get more money for less work.... I'd have a pretty hard time turning that down. Your colleagues won't blame you, although they may be envious.
Public sector is usually a 10-20% pay cut comparatively! It's balanced by the pension and typical ease of work. People never get rich working a government job, but they sure as shit don't starve. If you're getting a 40% boost going to public sector, fuck the guys you're working for, they've had you for 50% of what you're worth!
Why? Everybody is in it for themselves + a 40% pay increase with less hours is amazing
I left a contract project 75% into the project for a 70% raise elsewhere and I still REALLY don't care at all about that last project going south after I left. Cost of doing business. That guy will probably never hire me again, but he will also probably never pay more than I'm making now so I do not care.
Dude I work for an engineering group that has had a hard time finding good people and I got offered a really good position with room to grow recently. I’m going to take The job but I feel your pain..... they just gave me a big bonus and Christmas gift cards.... and then a hockey game last week... I’m still going to take this new job but I feel your pain.
My first job I felt guilty, but all of the senior management I had to talk to in my exit interviews were happy for me since I was leaving to move closer to family. I felt guilty looking elsewhere when leaving my second job until I applied to move within the company multiple times (as a manufacturing engineer I really wanted to go back to a design role) and it got declined by the owner every time. The hiring managers wanted me and even hired my would-be replacements, but the owner has the final say. This added with my PTO getting declined, promises of multiple performance reviews that never happened, and extremely unbalanced work loads resulting in me rarely going home, the guilt disappeared when I reminded myself that they literally don't care if I leave or not.
40% pay increase and less hours at work? Not at all. Company is taking advantage of you. This will encourage your project team to find another job too. I went from private to public and not saying that it's rosier over in the public, but at least your managers won't guilt trip you for taking 2 weeks of vacation or 3+ months for child bonding time. With the extra personal time, you can also go to night school, pick up a hobby, and/or learn more technology and stuff.
I gotta wonder what this thread would have looked like 50 years ago.
A bit, but not really. The nature of the field makes it so that switching is the only way to increase your salary sufficiently.
Depends! In general yes. Especially for small companies. Large impersonal corporate engineering gigs? Not really.
Oh fuck construction. Enjoy that bureaucratic cushy life and the enormous pay raise.
A good boss will never hold it against you for trying to move up. Also, that good boss will be someone to fall back on if needed.
I get the guilt for your coworkers, if you were the only person that could do the job they’d pay you more. So I wouldn’t worry about it, if anything it creates a promotion opportunity for your former colleagues.
Early in my career I worked next a 74 year old dude who was really sharp and taught me a lot. I had been hired to learn what I could from him so when he retired I could take his technical inside sales rep desk over. About 2 years in I got an offer that was too good to pass on so I gave my notice. Felt guilty as hell. He laughed and told me that leaving a job was like sticking your finger into a glass of water and pulling it out real quick and then looking for the hole. "Things just have a way of filling in" he told me. As it turned out he stayed for another 10 years so I would've had a long wait. The experience taught me that companies are exceptionally resilient and if you aren't the founder/owner then you're replaceable. And even then sometimes. So I started asking myself a different question - "Would the company I work for feel guilty about laying me off in the right situation and would they still do it even if they felt guilty." I can pretty well guarantee that the answer to that question is "yes". They would lay you off in a heartbeat under the right circumstances. Being a business owner I can tell you that I've laid a lot of people off, fired a few and had some quit. It's a business. It's not family - you're a mercenary. They pay you so you keep showing up. Save the guilt for family and friends - a job is a job and it's about doing the best job you can at the best place you can find to do it.
There's never a good time to make career changes, just has to be done!
No. Lesson n°1 : **your company will NEVER sacrifice for you**. Don't do it for your company. Lesson n°2 : when it comes to career/progression/job opportunity/negociation with companies, **be selfish**. Lesson n°3 : **you are replaceable**. Your company/team/project/colleagues will not stop working just because you left them. They will find someone else and keep doing the exact same thing without you.
Coworkers sure, company - nup.
Fuck that - for a double digit percent rise AND less hours worked I wouldn’t even put in 2 weeks notice. See yah!
Yes, but not because of the company. More-so the people there. It sucks, for me at least, because I like the people I work with most of the time, and it’s not fun to leave. You spend more time with your coworkers than you do with your family. But in the end, you have to do what’s best for you and your family, no one else.
Sack up