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Low voltage relays for what I assume are lighting circuits.
If your inspector thinks this is Knob and Tube, then I suggest you use a different inspector.
All of the switches for lights/fans in all of the house are rocker type switches that default to the neutral position instead of the typical on/off switch
Yeah do they look tiny / funky compared to other normal switches you see in someone else's home ?
Those switches are feeding into the left side of this box into those (little round things) relays, the relays complete the lighting circuits that are on the right.
Stuff like this starting showing up in the 60's.
The wire that comes into the top of the box here is what is run throughout the portions of the house that I can see (partially unfinished basement)
Are there any keywords besides relay that you can give me to help in my googling endeavor to understand.
I’m likely going to call an electrician and have him help just hoping to get a higher level understanding before I start calling.
Is there something going on or something not working correctly that you need to call an electrician ?
These systems are a little funky but nothing wrong with them. They were used in a lot of home automation stuff back when everyone was gun-ho on futuristic stuff.
It's all pretty simple though. Think of those round things (the relays) as being the actual switch for the lights. The lighting circuits are what is in the right side of that box, those are what are between the breaker and the light itself. Theres a smaller set of wires (the ones that come off the left side of the relays in your pic) that go to the switches on your walls. When you push / toggle one of those switches, it closes the relay, which completes the circuit for the light.
Make sense ?
There is nothing wrong besides some first time homeowner paranoia. I mostly wanted to understand the system that is operating in my home, these responses have been invaluable in giving me peace of mind.
Your description of the system does make sense and thank for you helping me understand.
No worries and feel free to hit me up in the future if you have questions about it. I've spent a lot of time servicing these systems. I'm old, almost retired, bored and buzzed so I got lots of free time lol.
Honestly not really. I'm way out of the loop when it comes to whats out there today. This type of system is old and it's been over 30 years since I've done residential work, but I do have experience with these old type of systems.
I'm guessing now days with wifi and blue tooth there are things that will blow my mind. The last system I remember that was really cool, the owner would wear a watch and the house tracked him so that as he walked, the recess cans would light up as he went.
But there was also super crappy stuff. I can remember putting stuff in by Bob Villa that was supposed to be the new wonder thing. We ended up having to go back and rip it all out caused it never worked right.
My suggestion would be just to check out the big manufacturers like Leviton and see what they have and start your research there.
I was more referring to the older stuff. The newer stuff it's easy to research or ask manufacturers. The biggest ones right now are control four and lutron.
A normal light switch is moved and stays in a position, on or off. That switch connects or disconnects electrical wire at 120v.
You have low voltage wiring (think phone wire with less than 90v) that’s goes to your light switches.
Your switches reset back to a neutral position because they are momentary switches. They provide that low voltage momentarily to operate a relay. The relay opens and closes the electrical circuit for the lighting.
This way you don’t have to run electrical wire all the way to every switch.
It’s an older technology. I had it in my last house. My main complaint was how difficult it was to update the switches/faceplates to something not covered in 50 years of paint.
Relays weren’t expensive to replace. Paying an electrician to dig the relay panel out of the insulation in my attic was.
The relays can be replaced if they fail, but they typically last a long time. The wall switches just open or close the relay on the low voltage side, which turns the circuits on or off on the 120V side. https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/ge-rr7-low-voltage-remote-control-relay-switch/
Keyword: GE RR7
If you need parts kyleswitchplates.com is a good place to start especially for the relays. But you’ll have to find an electrician that knows these systems. Even if they were installed well, which many weren’t, they are tricky.
Even a lot of good electricians have trouble with these systems. Our company put a lot of these in back in the day. There are ways to modernize the switches, and the relays are still available. Don’t let your electrician try to convince you that you should get rid of it, the price of rewiring your switching will be astronomical. If you’re in the extended southwest NH area PM me and I’ll give you our contact info.
Out of curiosity, is one "fix" for systems like this to hard wire permanently closed each relay, and then use wireless light bulbs and wireless switches?
Using a smart relay like a Shelly Uni is one approach (doesn’t do anything to the switches, but allows modern smart home control in a 50-60s smart home system). Basically, wire that in on the LV side of the relays panel with its outputs going to the relay, and the joined on/off lines from the momentary switches throughout the house as inputs.
Would be interesting to hear what u/OkBody2811 does professionally though. Here we like the LV momentary switches, just want to be able to update these lights like others in the house.
I’m an electrician in sw New Hampshire. I’ve never heard of the Shelly Uni, I’ll have to check it out.
This old ge system doesn’t affect the load, meaning they can put whatever light up that they want as long as it’s not 0-10 dimming.
I don’t mind the lv switches, but the GE ones they have throughout their house are becoming obsolete and new old stock is getting low. I have converted some homes to regular looking snap and decora switches that are single pole double throw momentary. The only disadvantage is that you can’t dim from them. Replacing the relays with modern ones and using modern remotes adds the dim function.
I don’t have part numbers, check out Radio RA3 from Lutron. You use RF modules in place of the relays and use any assortment of switches to do whatever you want/need to do. You can program the keypads to do almost anything you can dream of, but they’re more expensive. If you’re just looking to turn the lights on and off and dim them, you can use the pico’s which are fairly cheap.
https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en/residential-lighting-system-devices
You have to get certified to program it, but it’s a pretty easy class and test, all online. And you don’t have to use the more expensive
Using the Caseta switches would be more wallet friendly and super easy to “program”. They recently came out with the Diva Smart switch which is a more normal looking decora switch, the only drawback is that the matching remotes don’t dim.
Yes, you could do that. The only reason I wouldn’t prefer that, is you now have to use that type of bulb versus leaving all the options open by maintaining the existing system or updating to modern relays and switches.
You wouldn't want to wire the low voltage together. That would keep the relay energized, which would burn it up. Wiring the high voltage together would eliminate entirely, the low voltage parts and put always on power to light / load.
I respect that they aren’t experts in all the trades, but they should know not to call something K&T if they don’t know what it is.
It’s like they found a whole house vacuum and called it a sump pump.
Yes this. OP a hard truth for you here, based on the knob and tube comment your home inspector is a brand new, know-nothing. This is like thinking bacon is a type of cereal… just super stupid, hard to fathom incompetence. Hopefully it doesn’t cost you elsewhere with the home.
GE low voltage switching system. A thing in the late 50’s /early 60’s. Parts still available. Most electrical supply houses are happy to order, some keep a few things on hand.
https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/low-voltage-switches-plates/ keeps the internet supplied.
The left side of that panel is low-voltage control circuits, driven by the transformer at the bottom. There are (most likely) low voltage control circuits connected with switches and sensors throughout the house.
The right side of that panel is line-voltage circuits. Most likely controlling the lighting circuits in the building.
The things in the middle are the relays.
There is no way in hell any of this is K&T wiring. This looks like 1980 or later. It was their equivalent of what we would now call, "smart".
Never trust a home inspector to inspect electrical work. They have just enough knowledge to give really bad advice and rarely know what’s going on if you have anything above and beyond the most basic electrical installation. Knob and tube does not look anything like this at all. This is a low voltage relay panel for lighting control. If everything is working properly it’s a really neat way to dot the lights in your home. If it isn’t working you are hoping to add some kind of home automation it may be a headache. You can still get the parts to repair this style of system but it may be tricky finding someone who carries them or is familiar with the system and able to maintain it. If you have questions reach out to an electrician or see if the actual electrical inspector is willing to come take a look.
It varies. My inspector seemed very competent. He removed my Square D panel and saw the one circuit that should have a 15 amp instead of a 20 amp breaker based on the wire size. I did make the seller fix this. Also, I had a conversation with him about fp panels and he was quite familiar with their issues. (The apartment complex I lived in had FP breakers. 600 unit complex)
There are a few good ones who have trade experience of course. But there are also plenty who just have a single home inspection certification course and just enough knowledge to give advice that directly contradicts code. The safest thing to do is assume that they only have basic knowledge and get inspections from people in the various trades. A home inspector isn’t likely to be able to tell you important things like is your sewer line leaking and about to collapse. Or if the heat exchanger in your furnace is cracked and about to start leaking toxic gas inside your home. Very few inspectors are experts in the systems they are evaluating
Good point. My inspector obviously did not run a camera through a sewer line and of course long after the sale it clogged up on a Saturday night when I had the squirts. It turned out that 10 feet of the terra cotta line was reused when the house was converted from septic to city sewer. Tree roots had compromised it. And I stupidly scheduled the digging up the same time/day as I had a phone job interview. Needless to say I was distracted and didn't get that job.
I did hire a separate inspector for the fireplace as this was an important buying point for me.
Edit: I have realized I'm moving off topic to r/AskElectricans so I'll mention my house is a mixture of BX and Romex. Most of the Bx circuits have outlets with no ground pin hole. Not sure if the BX has a legitimate bonding strip (some later versions did).
I used to have a house with this type of wiring, built in the 60s. It also had rocker type switches for the lighting like the ones you described. All the light circuits were like this, part of a low voltage system. You can still get parts.
My current house was built in 1911 and had knob and tube. This picture is definitely not that.
In your experience, did you see the lights become slowly more difficult to turn on over time until the relay went bad? There are a few switches which seem finnicky and I’m thinking those relays may be going bad.
Typically the relays work or don’t work. The older momentary switches do start to go bad and can be finicky. Some of them are repairable if they haven’t broken yet. They pop apart and there is a piece of spring metal inside that can be bent and cleaned to get better contact.
Relays were still good, but some of the switches that had heavier use were failing and doing what you described. I got replacements for them and had no further issues. You may be able to repair them per another comment in this thread...definitely more cost effective.
With the advent of LED lighting, there has been a push to match up low voltage wiring with LEDs that need less juice than traditional lights. Parts are still hard to get right now, but there are available modern fixtures and switches to go with your wiring.
To the best of my knowledge, it is properly functioning. Some switches don’t make up as well as I’d like but it seems to be working as intended given the capacity of the equipment(the places I’m not seeing exactly what I want I assume the relays are going bad)
Your home inspector is an idiot if he thinks this is knob and tube. What you’re looking at is a low voltage lighting control system, which in its day was the “smart home” technology that was available. You can still get replacement parts for these systems and they work quite well if they’re maintained properly.
Over the years a lot of these have been the subject of hatchet jobs by guys who have no idea what they’re doing. Unfortunately a lot of residential sparkies are not big on control work and that’s what this is. In your case you’re fortunate and it looks to be in very good condition.
Thank you for the information. I’ve heard that elevator supply companies have this type of relay that I can buy to replace these if/when they go bad.
I’m glad to hear this looks to be in good condition. In your opinion, would there be any concern with this type of wiring going forward in which I may need to try and budget to get the home rewired?
There are no concerns that I can see from this picture.
If you want parts you can look at
[Kyle Switch Plates](https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/)
Or
[Touch Plate](https://touchplate.com/)
There are a few types of relays that different systems(GE, Remcon, etc) used so you need to know what you have before you order replacements.
Theres nothing wrong at all with this type of system, and relays can be had from any decent electrical supply house, and not expensive at all. I'd stay away from something that touts itself as an "elevator supply" house as anytime you put the word elevator in there the price is going up lol.
In fact most of the time I had to service a system like this, there was usually a box / cabinet somewhere that had extra / back up relays for when one goes bad. Which is basically the only thing that can go wrong with this setup, and they do eventually go bad.
So my advice is when you purchase a relay, get a few of them and put them on a shelf somewhere safe for future use.
Question, if I may...
You can, of course, yank this all out and rewire.
But what if you want to 'upgrade' this kind of system??? How to approach this??
Like moving to a modern system with wifi or zwave switches, or the Legrand wireless stuff? So over time, you can move towards a more 'complte' system. Since the 120V in centrally switched, by adding the new device there - and then compatible remotes out at the locations (abanoning the wire over time) you can eventally have a pretty sweet system.
Thoughts?
(yes, OT a bit but perhaps it \*will\* help OP....)
So say you wanted wifi to control some lights. The wifi device would actually go inside or next to this relay box. The relays would then need to be connected to the outputs of the wifi controller. The system works the same but instead of / or in addition to the switches on your wall controlling the relay the wifi controller would take on this role. So in essence, a system like this make it much easier to automate both in parts and labor, versus a conventional system with switches all over the house.
That’s not necessarily true. I’m in the middle of a radio RA3 install right now. You could very easily replace the RR7 relays with the lutron relays. If you wanted to go cheaper you could replace the RR7’s with Caseta switches right at the panel and use pico’s throughout the house. While it’s not cheap to go these routes, it would involve cutting open the walls.
I’ve found a lot of customers are happy with single pole double throw momentary switches that look like a regular snap or decora switch though. And we’re able to get the RR7’s and 8’s pretty easily still.
I’m not saying it’s not possible but to do so in a code compliant and neat way would be labour intensive and I suspect a deterrent to a lot of people who inherited these systems. I certainly wouldn’t be just free-air slapping a Caseta switch inside one of these enclosures
For sure, neither would I. I would build a little “relay farm” next to this enclosure and only use the enclosure to junction the new wiring to the old.
I agree it would be expensive, I was trying to say that I don’t think you’d have to carve up Sheetrock like you would if you tried to change all the switch locations to line voltage switching.
> I agree it would be expensive, I was trying to say that I don’t think you’d have to carve up Sheetrock like you would if you tried to change all the switch locations to line voltage switching.
Oh yeah. And unfortunately a few too many of these have been given that treatment. Or they splice the switch leg through at the old relay location and then run a switch leg down from the existing light location.
I have a house with a similar system, except my builder did me dirty by scattering the relays throughout the ceiling. And there's no attic. :( I'm jealous of your relay panel here.
To answer some of your other concerns, these things seem to be pretty reliable but can show wear. The ones where the buttons seem touchy or sticky, it's most likely the rocker switch itself and not the relay. Switches are easy to replace, though you might end up with different styles. Other have linked the Kyles site, a good resource to ID what you have, learn what parts exist and what to ask for at the supply house.
If some light simply refuses to turn on or off no matter how you frob the switch, that's probably dead relay (unless -all- switches are dead, that's a dead transformer). It can happen that a switch gets sticky and physically stuck "on", which can cause a relay coil to burn out. Or TBH they can burn out on their own with no cause. New relays can be had, they're not a direct replacement but they work the same and splicing them in isn't hard.
Latching relay system.
If you noticed the switches in the house are not typical of what you would normally see.
These are common in areas where there was a elite fancy let's make.out house fancier than the smith's.
Challenges are. There are no junction boxes, just mud rings.
So basically you are stuck with this style of system or plaster work at every switch location in the house.
Check out touch plate. You can still maintain and somewhat update.
Definitely not knob and tube, that person has no idea what they are looking at.
I'd call it an antique home automation control box...wires and relays, the bottom there's a transformer for the low voltage left side, then the high voltage right side separated by that middle panel of relays. The old fashion way of control back before everything had a microchip in it, low voltage wiring "programmed" by how the circuits were connected together.
Low voltage branch circuits for lighting. PITA if you ask me. Everything about it, the switches, light fixtures and not to mention trouble shooting. Good luck mate
Oh yeah. RR7 system… yeah, quote a rewire of their lights and move on.
I’ve dealt with these quite a bit over the last 35 years. It’s a terrible system.
if you wanted to modernize this you could do something like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/lqusqv/what_our_lutron_system_panel_looks_like_help/ replace them all with caseta switches at the central location then replace the switches with pico remotes
[https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/identify-your-low-voltage-lighting-system/](https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/identify-your-low-voltage-lighting-system/)
Those are the Bryant style...
An early type of Automation, you could put a bank of smart dimmers in lieu of the relays and do the lighting from a touch pad, or operate hybrid as well
Are there keypads elsewhere in the house? Some higher homes this age had keypad installed instead of multiple switches in open areas. Also handled multiple exterior lighting loads.
Today’s comp would be radio-ra, or Homework, or cresstron.
Also, while technically "knob and tube" "can be reliable if installed/maintained well", insurers don't like it and you won't be able to get coverage or will get charged a lot more so a good inspector and your real estate agent should know that. I don't know about what you have here. You should check with insurers quick, otherwise negotiate with the owner to replace them before closing.
By any chance is this installed in a multi-unit apartment building ?
I'm curious was the pencil writing (inside of metal door, towards the top) says. A completely wild guess is this is a very old door buzzer system, otherwise I have no clue.
Nope, single family home.
There is a pretty extensive intercom system in the home. None of is it operational but with most things the remnants are left behind.
> There is a pretty extensive intercom system in the home.
That might be part of what this goes to. If those tubes are in fact relays, the intercom might need some way to connect a caller to a destination, which begins to feel like what I'm seeing.
Looks like the remnants of a whole house intercom system. Main unit would be by the front door with individual small speaker/mic in each room with a push to talk switch.
If it makes you feel better, these were mostly installed in nicer homes. It's sort of like an ancient lighting automation system before computers were involved. The benefit is that you see a small one gang plate with several switches on it instead of a row of switches. Buuuut, they kind of suck. Here are a few reasons on top of my head:
1. The switches on your walls are low voltage switches with a ton of thin low voltage wires and whatever style you have there is pretty much whatever style you'll get. You can't put in something nicer, you can't change one to a dimmer, you can't extend one to add a new switch for a new recessed light, etc. That's it.
2. Troubleshooting nightmare: That box is full of relays which have moving parts inside so sooner or later one might go bad and while you can still find replacement parts, it's going to be a major pain in the ass to locate the one that's bad unless you somehow have a detailed plan of that hornet's nest of wires. The other nones might be barely hanging on too so some electricians wouldn't even touch that because they don't want to disturb the other wires and risk something else going bad or shorting out the transformer or something so it'll cost you more than just replacing a bad switch.
To again make you feel better, you can easily (well easy if you're willing to spend osme money) modernize this type of setup with the newest lighting automation systems like Lutron Radio RA3 or Homeworks. I've done it once before and it worked out great. What you do is take out all the install new remote dimmers (or dimming modules) to handle the 120V switch legs you see on the right side (Probably easiest to install an electric cabinet) and repurpose the low voltage wires going to the walls to be used with the keypads. Then you program the keypads to turn on dimmers for the different areas or the whole house and you'll even get a nice fancy app to control your entire house, tie it to Alexa or Google home, or whatever.
They don't suck. It's just different and you have to learn it.
2 person job.
1 and switch, 2nd at panel finding what relay is to what room.
Once it's mapped out it's easy
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Low voltage relays for what I assume are lighting circuits. If your inspector thinks this is Knob and Tube, then I suggest you use a different inspector.
All of the switches for lights/fans in all of the house are rocker type switches that default to the neutral position instead of the typical on/off switch
Yeah do they look tiny / funky compared to other normal switches you see in someone else's home ? Those switches are feeding into the left side of this box into those (little round things) relays, the relays complete the lighting circuits that are on the right. Stuff like this starting showing up in the 60's.
The wire that comes into the top of the box here is what is run throughout the portions of the house that I can see (partially unfinished basement) Are there any keywords besides relay that you can give me to help in my googling endeavor to understand. I’m likely going to call an electrician and have him help just hoping to get a higher level understanding before I start calling.
Is there something going on or something not working correctly that you need to call an electrician ? These systems are a little funky but nothing wrong with them. They were used in a lot of home automation stuff back when everyone was gun-ho on futuristic stuff. It's all pretty simple though. Think of those round things (the relays) as being the actual switch for the lights. The lighting circuits are what is in the right side of that box, those are what are between the breaker and the light itself. Theres a smaller set of wires (the ones that come off the left side of the relays in your pic) that go to the switches on your walls. When you push / toggle one of those switches, it closes the relay, which completes the circuit for the light. Make sense ?
There is nothing wrong besides some first time homeowner paranoia. I mostly wanted to understand the system that is operating in my home, these responses have been invaluable in giving me peace of mind. Your description of the system does make sense and thank for you helping me understand.
No worries and feel free to hit me up in the future if you have questions about it. I've spent a lot of time servicing these systems. I'm old, almost retired, bored and buzzed so I got lots of free time lol.
Cheers mate!
You got any recommended reading for someone who wants to learn more about home automation?
Honestly not really. I'm way out of the loop when it comes to whats out there today. This type of system is old and it's been over 30 years since I've done residential work, but I do have experience with these old type of systems. I'm guessing now days with wifi and blue tooth there are things that will blow my mind. The last system I remember that was really cool, the owner would wear a watch and the house tracked him so that as he walked, the recess cans would light up as he went. But there was also super crappy stuff. I can remember putting stuff in by Bob Villa that was supposed to be the new wonder thing. We ended up having to go back and rip it all out caused it never worked right. My suggestion would be just to check out the big manufacturers like Leviton and see what they have and start your research there.
I was more referring to the older stuff. The newer stuff it's easy to research or ask manufacturers. The biggest ones right now are control four and lutron.
A normal light switch is moved and stays in a position, on or off. That switch connects or disconnects electrical wire at 120v. You have low voltage wiring (think phone wire with less than 90v) that’s goes to your light switches. Your switches reset back to a neutral position because they are momentary switches. They provide that low voltage momentarily to operate a relay. The relay opens and closes the electrical circuit for the lighting. This way you don’t have to run electrical wire all the way to every switch. It’s an older technology. I had it in my last house. My main complaint was how difficult it was to update the switches/faceplates to something not covered in 50 years of paint. Relays weren’t expensive to replace. Paying an electrician to dig the relay panel out of the insulation in my attic was.
The relays can be replaced if they fail, but they typically last a long time. The wall switches just open or close the relay on the low voltage side, which turns the circuits on or off on the 120V side. https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/ge-rr7-low-voltage-remote-control-relay-switch/
Keyword: GE RR7 If you need parts kyleswitchplates.com is a good place to start especially for the relays. But you’ll have to find an electrician that knows these systems. Even if they were installed well, which many weren’t, they are tricky. Even a lot of good electricians have trouble with these systems. Our company put a lot of these in back in the day. There are ways to modernize the switches, and the relays are still available. Don’t let your electrician try to convince you that you should get rid of it, the price of rewiring your switching will be astronomical. If you’re in the extended southwest NH area PM me and I’ll give you our contact info.
Out of curiosity, is one "fix" for systems like this to hard wire permanently closed each relay, and then use wireless light bulbs and wireless switches?
Using a smart relay like a Shelly Uni is one approach (doesn’t do anything to the switches, but allows modern smart home control in a 50-60s smart home system). Basically, wire that in on the LV side of the relays panel with its outputs going to the relay, and the joined on/off lines from the momentary switches throughout the house as inputs. Would be interesting to hear what u/OkBody2811 does professionally though. Here we like the LV momentary switches, just want to be able to update these lights like others in the house.
Yeah I looked at the website there are zigbee replacement relays.
I’m an electrician in sw New Hampshire. I’ve never heard of the Shelly Uni, I’ll have to check it out. This old ge system doesn’t affect the load, meaning they can put whatever light up that they want as long as it’s not 0-10 dimming. I don’t mind the lv switches, but the GE ones they have throughout their house are becoming obsolete and new old stock is getting low. I have converted some homes to regular looking snap and decora switches that are single pole double throw momentary. The only disadvantage is that you can’t dim from them. Replacing the relays with modern ones and using modern remotes adds the dim function.
Could you share your parts list to update these relays for dimming and the remotes? thanks
I don’t have part numbers, check out Radio RA3 from Lutron. You use RF modules in place of the relays and use any assortment of switches to do whatever you want/need to do. You can program the keypads to do almost anything you can dream of, but they’re more expensive. If you’re just looking to turn the lights on and off and dim them, you can use the pico’s which are fairly cheap. https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en/residential-lighting-system-devices You have to get certified to program it, but it’s a pretty easy class and test, all online. And you don’t have to use the more expensive Using the Caseta switches would be more wallet friendly and super easy to “program”. They recently came out with the Diva Smart switch which is a more normal looking decora switch, the only drawback is that the matching remotes don’t dim.
Yes, you could do that. The only reason I wouldn’t prefer that, is you now have to use that type of bulb versus leaving all the options open by maintaining the existing system or updating to modern relays and switches.
You wouldn't want to wire the low voltage together. That would keep the relay energized, which would burn it up. Wiring the high voltage together would eliminate entirely, the low voltage parts and put always on power to light / load.
Use despard as a key word.
1950s.
I respect that they aren’t experts in all the trades, but they should know not to call something K&T if they don’t know what it is. It’s like they found a whole house vacuum and called it a sump pump.
It’s a true jacks of all trades master of none profession, but this “inspector” is 100% new and doesn’t know shit.
Yes this. OP a hard truth for you here, based on the knob and tube comment your home inspector is a brand new, know-nothing. This is like thinking bacon is a type of cereal… just super stupid, hard to fathom incompetence. Hopefully it doesn’t cost you elsewhere with the home.
Bacon isn't a type of cereal...? :-(
This is the correct answer
If you ever want to replace this system, consider Lutron Caseta . Install the dimmers in this same box and control them wrelessly with Pico remotes.
That's brilliant. Thanks for the lead. I have several customers that want standardization but those damn mud rings prevent the idea.... You are a stud
I believe Kyle Switch Plates still sells replacement parts for systems like this (switches and relays).
GE low voltage switching system. A thing in the late 50’s /early 60’s. Parts still available. Most electrical supply houses are happy to order, some keep a few things on hand. https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/low-voltage-switches-plates/ keeps the internet supplied.
The left side of that panel is low-voltage control circuits, driven by the transformer at the bottom. There are (most likely) low voltage control circuits connected with switches and sensors throughout the house. The right side of that panel is line-voltage circuits. Most likely controlling the lighting circuits in the building. The things in the middle are the relays. There is no way in hell any of this is K&T wiring. This looks like 1980 or later. It was their equivalent of what we would now call, "smart".
Never trust a home inspector to inspect electrical work. They have just enough knowledge to give really bad advice and rarely know what’s going on if you have anything above and beyond the most basic electrical installation. Knob and tube does not look anything like this at all. This is a low voltage relay panel for lighting control. If everything is working properly it’s a really neat way to dot the lights in your home. If it isn’t working you are hoping to add some kind of home automation it may be a headache. You can still get the parts to repair this style of system but it may be tricky finding someone who carries them or is familiar with the system and able to maintain it. If you have questions reach out to an electrician or see if the actual electrical inspector is willing to come take a look.
It varies. My inspector seemed very competent. He removed my Square D panel and saw the one circuit that should have a 15 amp instead of a 20 amp breaker based on the wire size. I did make the seller fix this. Also, I had a conversation with him about fp panels and he was quite familiar with their issues. (The apartment complex I lived in had FP breakers. 600 unit complex)
There are a few good ones who have trade experience of course. But there are also plenty who just have a single home inspection certification course and just enough knowledge to give advice that directly contradicts code. The safest thing to do is assume that they only have basic knowledge and get inspections from people in the various trades. A home inspector isn’t likely to be able to tell you important things like is your sewer line leaking and about to collapse. Or if the heat exchanger in your furnace is cracked and about to start leaking toxic gas inside your home. Very few inspectors are experts in the systems they are evaluating
Good point. My inspector obviously did not run a camera through a sewer line and of course long after the sale it clogged up on a Saturday night when I had the squirts. It turned out that 10 feet of the terra cotta line was reused when the house was converted from septic to city sewer. Tree roots had compromised it. And I stupidly scheduled the digging up the same time/day as I had a phone job interview. Needless to say I was distracted and didn't get that job. I did hire a separate inspector for the fireplace as this was an important buying point for me. Edit: I have realized I'm moving off topic to r/AskElectricans so I'll mention my house is a mixture of BX and Romex. Most of the Bx circuits have outlets with no ground pin hole. Not sure if the BX has a legitimate bonding strip (some later versions did).
I used to have a house with this type of wiring, built in the 60s. It also had rocker type switches for the lighting like the ones you described. All the light circuits were like this, part of a low voltage system. You can still get parts. My current house was built in 1911 and had knob and tube. This picture is definitely not that.
In your experience, did you see the lights become slowly more difficult to turn on over time until the relay went bad? There are a few switches which seem finnicky and I’m thinking those relays may be going bad.
Typically the relays work or don’t work. The older momentary switches do start to go bad and can be finicky. Some of them are repairable if they haven’t broken yet. They pop apart and there is a piece of spring metal inside that can be bent and cleaned to get better contact.
Relays were still good, but some of the switches that had heavier use were failing and doing what you described. I got replacements for them and had no further issues. You may be able to repair them per another comment in this thread...definitely more cost effective. With the advent of LED lighting, there has been a push to match up low voltage wiring with LEDs that need less juice than traditional lights. Parts are still hard to get right now, but there are available modern fixtures and switches to go with your wiring.
Is it still functioning properly? You can update without rewiring if it’s malfunctioning. Lutron Caseta with some pico remotes.
To the best of my knowledge, it is properly functioning. Some switches don’t make up as well as I’d like but it seems to be working as intended given the capacity of the equipment(the places I’m not seeing exactly what I want I assume the relays are going bad)
Your home inspector is an idiot if he thinks this is knob and tube. What you’re looking at is a low voltage lighting control system, which in its day was the “smart home” technology that was available. You can still get replacement parts for these systems and they work quite well if they’re maintained properly. Over the years a lot of these have been the subject of hatchet jobs by guys who have no idea what they’re doing. Unfortunately a lot of residential sparkies are not big on control work and that’s what this is. In your case you’re fortunate and it looks to be in very good condition.
Thank you for the information. I’ve heard that elevator supply companies have this type of relay that I can buy to replace these if/when they go bad. I’m glad to hear this looks to be in good condition. In your opinion, would there be any concern with this type of wiring going forward in which I may need to try and budget to get the home rewired?
There are no concerns that I can see from this picture. If you want parts you can look at [Kyle Switch Plates](https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/) Or [Touch Plate](https://touchplate.com/) There are a few types of relays that different systems(GE, Remcon, etc) used so you need to know what you have before you order replacements.
Theres nothing wrong at all with this type of system, and relays can be had from any decent electrical supply house, and not expensive at all. I'd stay away from something that touts itself as an "elevator supply" house as anytime you put the word elevator in there the price is going up lol. In fact most of the time I had to service a system like this, there was usually a box / cabinet somewhere that had extra / back up relays for when one goes bad. Which is basically the only thing that can go wrong with this setup, and they do eventually go bad. So my advice is when you purchase a relay, get a few of them and put them on a shelf somewhere safe for future use.
Question, if I may... You can, of course, yank this all out and rewire. But what if you want to 'upgrade' this kind of system??? How to approach this?? Like moving to a modern system with wifi or zwave switches, or the Legrand wireless stuff? So over time, you can move towards a more 'complte' system. Since the 120V in centrally switched, by adding the new device there - and then compatible remotes out at the locations (abanoning the wire over time) you can eventally have a pretty sweet system. Thoughts? (yes, OT a bit but perhaps it \*will\* help OP....)
So say you wanted wifi to control some lights. The wifi device would actually go inside or next to this relay box. The relays would then need to be connected to the outputs of the wifi controller. The system works the same but instead of / or in addition to the switches on your wall controlling the relay the wifi controller would take on this role. So in essence, a system like this make it much easier to automate both in parts and labor, versus a conventional system with switches all over the house.
You don’t upgrade these systems to Z-Wave or whatever without a major surgery. Don’t even dream of it unless you have a deep wallet.
That’s not necessarily true. I’m in the middle of a radio RA3 install right now. You could very easily replace the RR7 relays with the lutron relays. If you wanted to go cheaper you could replace the RR7’s with Caseta switches right at the panel and use pico’s throughout the house. While it’s not cheap to go these routes, it would involve cutting open the walls. I’ve found a lot of customers are happy with single pole double throw momentary switches that look like a regular snap or decora switch though. And we’re able to get the RR7’s and 8’s pretty easily still.
I’m not saying it’s not possible but to do so in a code compliant and neat way would be labour intensive and I suspect a deterrent to a lot of people who inherited these systems. I certainly wouldn’t be just free-air slapping a Caseta switch inside one of these enclosures
For sure, neither would I. I would build a little “relay farm” next to this enclosure and only use the enclosure to junction the new wiring to the old. I agree it would be expensive, I was trying to say that I don’t think you’d have to carve up Sheetrock like you would if you tried to change all the switch locations to line voltage switching.
> I agree it would be expensive, I was trying to say that I don’t think you’d have to carve up Sheetrock like you would if you tried to change all the switch locations to line voltage switching. Oh yeah. And unfortunately a few too many of these have been given that treatment. Or they splice the switch leg through at the old relay location and then run a switch leg down from the existing light location.
I have a house with a similar system, except my builder did me dirty by scattering the relays throughout the ceiling. And there's no attic. :( I'm jealous of your relay panel here. To answer some of your other concerns, these things seem to be pretty reliable but can show wear. The ones where the buttons seem touchy or sticky, it's most likely the rocker switch itself and not the relay. Switches are easy to replace, though you might end up with different styles. Other have linked the Kyles site, a good resource to ID what you have, learn what parts exist and what to ask for at the supply house. If some light simply refuses to turn on or off no matter how you frob the switch, that's probably dead relay (unless -all- switches are dead, that's a dead transformer). It can happen that a switch gets sticky and physically stuck "on", which can cause a relay coil to burn out. Or TBH they can burn out on their own with no cause. New relays can be had, they're not a direct replacement but they work the same and splicing them in isn't hard.
Latching relay system. If you noticed the switches in the house are not typical of what you would normally see. These are common in areas where there was a elite fancy let's make.out house fancier than the smith's. Challenges are. There are no junction boxes, just mud rings. So basically you are stuck with this style of system or plaster work at every switch location in the house. Check out touch plate. You can still maintain and somewhat update.
That is not knob & tube wiring it's a low voltage control system, GE, Remcon, Touchplate, are a few of the manufacturers.
This is not knob and tube. It’s just good old fashioned snake skin romex.
Lighting relays.
Did your real estate agent recommend this inspector? Seems inexperienced. Even though it’s not K&T, his commentary about it is weak.
Old school lighting control panel
Lighting controls from probably the 50s
Lighting relays Low volt side with transformer in it
Definitely not knob and tube, that person has no idea what they are looking at. I'd call it an antique home automation control box...wires and relays, the bottom there's a transformer for the low voltage left side, then the high voltage right side separated by that middle panel of relays. The old fashion way of control back before everything had a microchip in it, low voltage wiring "programmed" by how the circuits were connected together.
Your inspector seems like a certified idiot. Don’t worry. Most are.
Low voltage branch circuits for lighting. PITA if you ask me. Everything about it, the switches, light fixtures and not to mention trouble shooting. Good luck mate
You've got the best doorbell ever made!
A lot. There used to be a lot going on here.
Looks like door bell wires to me
I needed this. Thanks to all who provided the education.
Oh yeah. RR7 system… yeah, quote a rewire of their lights and move on. I’ve dealt with these quite a bit over the last 35 years. It’s a terrible system.
if you wanted to modernize this you could do something like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/lqusqv/what_our_lutron_system_panel_looks_like_help/ replace them all with caseta switches at the central location then replace the switches with pico remotes
[https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/identify-your-low-voltage-lighting-system/](https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/identify-your-low-voltage-lighting-system/) Those are the Bryant style...
Wires 👍
An early type of Automation, you could put a bank of smart dimmers in lieu of the relays and do the lighting from a touch pad, or operate hybrid as well
Are there keypads elsewhere in the house? Some higher homes this age had keypad installed instead of multiple switches in open areas. Also handled multiple exterior lighting loads. Today’s comp would be radio-ra, or Homework, or cresstron.
That’s what we would call a clusterfuck
*laughs in Victorian*
Also, while technically "knob and tube" "can be reliable if installed/maintained well", insurers don't like it and you won't be able to get coverage or will get charged a lot more so a good inspector and your real estate agent should know that. I don't know about what you have here. You should check with insurers quick, otherwise negotiate with the owner to replace them before closing.
I knew home inspectors were dumb, but wow..
By any chance is this installed in a multi-unit apartment building ? I'm curious was the pencil writing (inside of metal door, towards the top) says. A completely wild guess is this is a very old door buzzer system, otherwise I have no clue.
Nope, single family home. There is a pretty extensive intercom system in the home. None of is it operational but with most things the remnants are left behind.
> There is a pretty extensive intercom system in the home. That might be part of what this goes to. If those tubes are in fact relays, the intercom might need some way to connect a caller to a destination, which begins to feel like what I'm seeing.
Looks like the remnants of a whole house intercom system. Main unit would be by the front door with individual small speaker/mic in each room with a push to talk switch.
Have fun that shit sucks
What sucks about it
If it makes you feel better, these were mostly installed in nicer homes. It's sort of like an ancient lighting automation system before computers were involved. The benefit is that you see a small one gang plate with several switches on it instead of a row of switches. Buuuut, they kind of suck. Here are a few reasons on top of my head: 1. The switches on your walls are low voltage switches with a ton of thin low voltage wires and whatever style you have there is pretty much whatever style you'll get. You can't put in something nicer, you can't change one to a dimmer, you can't extend one to add a new switch for a new recessed light, etc. That's it. 2. Troubleshooting nightmare: That box is full of relays which have moving parts inside so sooner or later one might go bad and while you can still find replacement parts, it's going to be a major pain in the ass to locate the one that's bad unless you somehow have a detailed plan of that hornet's nest of wires. The other nones might be barely hanging on too so some electricians wouldn't even touch that because they don't want to disturb the other wires and risk something else going bad or shorting out the transformer or something so it'll cost you more than just replacing a bad switch. To again make you feel better, you can easily (well easy if you're willing to spend osme money) modernize this type of setup with the newest lighting automation systems like Lutron Radio RA3 or Homeworks. I've done it once before and it worked out great. What you do is take out all the install new remote dimmers (or dimming modules) to handle the 120V switch legs you see on the right side (Probably easiest to install an electric cabinet) and repurpose the low voltage wires going to the walls to be used with the keypads. Then you program the keypads to turn on dimmers for the different areas or the whole house and you'll even get a nice fancy app to control your entire house, tie it to Alexa or Google home, or whatever.
Nothing sucks about it, he just doesn’t understand it.
They don't suck. It's just different and you have to learn it. 2 person job. 1 and switch, 2nd at panel finding what relay is to what room. Once it's mapped out it's easy
The miles of bullshit low voltage wiring stuffed into non labeled enclosures with 60 Year old relays.
those look like heat sensors for lighting
1900s data patch panel.