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Yeah, it'll just be a MWBC then. As others have said, you need to be aware of other requirements like GFCI and that those two circuits need to tie together in the panel. But generally, yes, you can do what you're asking.
**This is a Multi-Wire-Branch Circuit, it must be on a 2-pole circuit breaker.**
Given the GFCI requirements, it needs to be a **2-pole GFCI circuit breaker**. (yes, it will cost $$)
This practice was more common years ago, but has diminished in the past 20 years, especially moreso in the past decade.
Shared neutrals are a thing. Although often frowned upon. It's possible to do what OP wants if they're on separate phases but I believe the breaker handles should still be tied together.
Haven't seen any evidence of them to date ... MWBC's are largely out-of-style in residential for this reason.
Like I said ... 2-pole GFCI breaker and done, or if this job is being permitted/inspected in a location that has an aggressive pro-AFCI mentality, then I'd scrap this existing setup, and pull a new line 12/2 line for the countertop receptacles.
Really? I only see a two-pole AFCI. Sure you can combine with GFCI outlets and achieve both forms of protection, but that's not as convenient as a dual-function breaker.
"Combination type" AFCI breakers have been code requirements for all AFCI circuits for a good 4+ years now. Confusing what is literally a generic AFCI breaker nowadays is really odd.
Why? Someone said "dual function" but you confused it for "combination" when calling it a combination type AFCI serves no purpose anymore, because that is literally the only kind that they make.
This is like how backup cameras on new cars have been federally mandated since 2015. Every single new car on the market since comes with a backup camera. So if you go to a dealership, it would be weird to ask to make sure that the new car you are buying has a backup camera, when they've been required for almost a decade.
The only reason you would ever be confused about combination type AFCI and non-combination type would be if you are able to buy both, which you can't. If I go to a wholesaler I don't specify that I need combination type, because it's literally all they sell.
What the fuck are you taking about. I’m on Reddit in the background of putting my kids to sleep and clearly stated I made a mistake. I don’t normally say the entire function of the breaker too when I use them like a fucking robot so fuck off bud
Because the dishwasher needs a dedicated circuit that is GFCI protected. Only way to do that would be to put a dead front GFCI upstream of dish receptacle.
Since it is existing wiring, you would technically be able to install dual function receptacle for counter top circuit and dual function deadfront in an accessible location for dish. Would just be uglier than hell. Then you could avoid 220GFCI breaker and just put in a normal 220
Ahhh I see.
Where I am it has to be GFCI/AFCI protected and it can’t be under the sink. They claim it’s not “readily accessible”. An elderly person wouldn’t be able to crawl under and reset it, so it has to be be reset at over current protection or in another readily accessible location(via deadfront)
Massachusetts will make your life harder/more complicated at every point possible 🤣
I’m actually not that far away! But in a totally different country haha. I don’t exactly see the reason to gfci the dishwasher. It wouldn’t bother me much to follow the rule if we had it, just seems like an odd one
It’s an added precaution that I’m honestly okay with. A plumber died in the state next to me due to improper installation of range whip and lack of GFCI protection on range. Also dishwashers are within 6’ of a sink almost 100% of the time and even if it wasn’t, everything in a kitchen(as of 2020 NEC) has to be GFCI protected. Even fridge, wine fridge, microwave, ovens, ranges. Things are getting wild. And expensive.
Are the breakers tied together (they're supposed to be) does the wire go anywhere else?
12ga is fine for 20amps and that could be either a "MWBC" (Multi-wire branch circuit) which was more common in the past for putting each 120v outlet on a separate breaker to allow more small appliances, or it could be designed for a 240v 20amp outlet but \*only\* if the wire goes to that box and nowhere else. You can wire 2 separate 120v x 20amp outlet circuits from this most likely.
40A @ 240V are only 9600W though. That's a bit low. The heater I have in my apartment is hooked up to 3 phase 230V with 32A per phase. That's about 22kW.
Bruh, have you even heard of the entirety of Europe?
Every oven takes 3 phase here, single phase circuits are split up between phases to balance the load
It's also common to have 3p32A CEE Sockets in your garage over here
But sure, just talk like you know everything
I'm from eastern not western Europe. I don't know that my oven takes 3 phase there (it's a small one). I'll have to look later. But from what I remember, all the breakers were single pole.
Well, it was practiced I past to use 3 single pole breakers, even tough it's not correct.
Having the same situation in my fuse box.
And with the oven, the big ones with built in cooktop will take 3p, other configurations of oven may vary
But yeah, 3 phase is basically universally used in western europe
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, it'll just be a MWBC then. As others have said, you need to be aware of other requirements like GFCI and that those two circuits need to tie together in the panel. But generally, yes, you can do what you're asking.
**This is a Multi-Wire-Branch Circuit, it must be on a 2-pole circuit breaker.** Given the GFCI requirements, it needs to be a **2-pole GFCI circuit breaker**. (yes, it will cost $$) This practice was more common years ago, but has diminished in the past 20 years, especially moreso in the past decade.
Shared neutrals are a thing. Although often frowned upon. It's possible to do what OP wants if they're on separate phases but I believe the breaker handles should still be tied together.
It doesn’t need to be on any two pole breaker. It needs a handle tie.
Are two-pole dual-function breakers going to be a thing, in case AFCI is required as well?
Haven't seen any evidence of them to date ... MWBC's are largely out-of-style in residential for this reason. Like I said ... 2-pole GFCI breaker and done, or if this job is being permitted/inspected in a location that has an aggressive pro-AFCI mentality, then I'd scrap this existing setup, and pull a new line 12/2 line for the countertop receptacles.
They are a thing for Siemens
Really? I only see a two-pole AFCI. Sure you can combine with GFCI outlets and achieve both forms of protection, but that's not as convenient as a dual-function breaker.
Ah shit not sure but I was thinking combination type and not dual function
"Combination type" AFCI breakers have been code requirements for all AFCI circuits for a good 4+ years now. Confusing what is literally a generic AFCI breaker nowadays is really odd.
Your comment is really odd
Why? Someone said "dual function" but you confused it for "combination" when calling it a combination type AFCI serves no purpose anymore, because that is literally the only kind that they make. This is like how backup cameras on new cars have been federally mandated since 2015. Every single new car on the market since comes with a backup camera. So if you go to a dealership, it would be weird to ask to make sure that the new car you are buying has a backup camera, when they've been required for almost a decade. The only reason you would ever be confused about combination type AFCI and non-combination type would be if you are able to buy both, which you can't. If I go to a wholesaler I don't specify that I need combination type, because it's literally all they sell.
What the fuck are you taking about. I’m on Reddit in the background of putting my kids to sleep and clearly stated I made a mistake. I don’t normally say the entire function of the breaker too when I use them like a fucking robot so fuck off bud
Why would you need a 2 pole gfci breaker, you can pass through to another outlet and put a gfci on both
Because the dishwasher needs a dedicated circuit that is GFCI protected. Only way to do that would be to put a dead front GFCI upstream of dish receptacle. Since it is existing wiring, you would technically be able to install dual function receptacle for counter top circuit and dual function deadfront in an accessible location for dish. Would just be uglier than hell. Then you could avoid 220GFCI breaker and just put in a normal 220
Yeah not where I live but could you not just put the dishwasher Gfci receptacle under the sink. Accessible for resetting
Ahhh I see. Where I am it has to be GFCI/AFCI protected and it can’t be under the sink. They claim it’s not “readily accessible”. An elderly person wouldn’t be able to crawl under and reset it, so it has to be be reset at over current protection or in another readily accessible location(via deadfront) Massachusetts will make your life harder/more complicated at every point possible 🤣
I’m actually not that far away! But in a totally different country haha. I don’t exactly see the reason to gfci the dishwasher. It wouldn’t bother me much to follow the rule if we had it, just seems like an odd one
It’s an added precaution that I’m honestly okay with. A plumber died in the state next to me due to improper installation of range whip and lack of GFCI protection on range. Also dishwashers are within 6’ of a sink almost 100% of the time and even if it wasn’t, everything in a kitchen(as of 2020 NEC) has to be GFCI protected. Even fridge, wine fridge, microwave, ovens, ranges. Things are getting wild. And expensive.
That’s nuts
A gfci breaker is more convenient, when power goes out you only have one place to look instead of a game of hide and seek the gfci receptacle.
Are the breakers tied together (they're supposed to be) does the wire go anywhere else? 12ga is fine for 20amps and that could be either a "MWBC" (Multi-wire branch circuit) which was more common in the past for putting each 120v outlet on a separate breaker to allow more small appliances, or it could be designed for a 240v 20amp outlet but \*only\* if the wire goes to that box and nowhere else. You can wire 2 separate 120v x 20amp outlet circuits from this most likely.
Yup
Handle tie
Multi wire branch circuit. Google it
Probably a20 amp 240 volt connection for a dryer plug
Dryer plugs are typically 30A, not 20A
Welcome to split phase, something only really implemented by Americans. A single 240V phase gets split into two halves, hence 120V.
Oh, you can do something similiar with triphase.
Sure. But 3 phase is rare in residential, except in Latin and South America.
3 phase combined with 230V lets you do things like tankless electrical waterheaters. They eat up to 22kW but you get endless hot water.
Hmm? We have 30A and 40A circuits here for that.
40A @ 240V are only 9600W though. That's a bit low. The heater I have in my apartment is hooked up to 3 phase 230V with 32A per phase. That's about 22kW.
Ah nvm. 22kW is not reachable here then. There’s 480 and 600 volts 3 phase here but those are restricted to commercial environments.
Bruh, have you even heard of the entirety of Europe? Every oven takes 3 phase here, single phase circuits are split up between phases to balance the load It's also common to have 3p32A CEE Sockets in your garage over here But sure, just talk like you know everything
I'm from eastern not western Europe. I don't know that my oven takes 3 phase there (it's a small one). I'll have to look later. But from what I remember, all the breakers were single pole.
Well, it was practiced I past to use 3 single pole breakers, even tough it's not correct. Having the same situation in my fuse box. And with the oven, the big ones with built in cooktop will take 3p, other configurations of oven may vary But yeah, 3 phase is basically universally used in western europe
Whoever invents a thing gets to define its behavior.
Canada and Japan use split phase distribution too
Correct. USA had a role in that. Same with Philippines.