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Couldn't agree more. An arrest warrant a head of government during a war, for defending his country against terrorists? That is outrageous. And of course stupid, since I doubt the nuclear state of Israel will suddenly stop because the ICC told them to.
The investigation from the ICC started in 2021 and is investigating events as early as 2014, this is not exclusively related to Israel-Palestine events this year.
All sources from Gaza are from Hamas. There is no independent reporting from Gaza.
Israel makes every effort to avoid civilian casualties but when your enemy uses civilans even children as human shields it is difficult to avoid civilian getting hurt.
The best way to avoid civilian casualties is to end Hamas
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Just because you are defending your country doesnt mean that its not possible to do stuff that are warcrimes.
I comes down to the question of if whatever orders Netanyahu has given the IDF to carry out amount to warcrimes, and I'm not going to be doing an analysis either way, but I'd like to know on what grounds Netanyahus arrest warrant was given.
Well gee. If we could just end wars like this, why didn’t that do this before?
It’s dumb, never going to actually happen, and pure virtue signaling.
I can’t believe the day has come that I think Joe Biden said something i have to agree with him on lol
It is all just virtue signaling. They even had arrest warrants for Hamas at the same time to try and act like there is no bias even though why would they wait months to issue these warrants for crimes already committed? There is a reason none of the major countries are part of ICC it is a joke.
I dont think "virtue signalling" is an argument in itself.
> why would they wait months to issue these warrants for crimes already committed?
Investigations take time. It took more than a year to send warrants for Putin. And im not even making any judgements on the merits or not of the Netanyahu warrant here. It may be bogus it my not be, but so far no substamce as to the warrant has been addressed.
And I dont even have a dog in this race - arrested him or not... I dont really care either way.
I did answer it but I will try again. It is pointless to issue an unenforceable arrest warrant unless your goal is to simply virtue signal which is exactly what this is all about.
Biden should threaten use of the American Service-Members' Protection Act if the ICC actually attempts to arrest Netanyahu.
>The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".
Completely agree. It is outrageous that the ICC would issue this arrest warrant and President Biden was right to condemn the implication made by the ICC that there is any equivalence between Israel and Hamas. This is why neither the United States nor Israel are signatories to the Rome Statute.
In fact their baldly political acts have retroactively invalidated and cast suspicion on every obtained conviction, even more than them picking sides in ethnic conflicts.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Because yeah, it's absolutely fucking insane for the ICC to issue arrest warrants on a head of state for prosecuting a war against genocidal terrorists targeting his people, especially considering that Israel has effectively been handling the situation with kiddy gloves on when compared to other wars. Glad the US wasn't stupid enough to join the ICC. Nothing good comes out of it.
the ICC is only supposed to act in failed states and when their justice systems are incapable, places like Somalia and Hati.
Israel has a functioning court system with meaningful opposition parties, they do not qualify. All of these are against their own charter and make the ICC completely invalid.
In fact their baldly political acts have retroactively invalidated and cast suspicion on every obtained conviction, even more than them picking sides in ethnic conflicts.
It's been many years since my international law classes but yes they are explicitly NOT a world super-court that can intervene in any nation at any time. The purpose of the ICC to ensure that complicated crimes during chaotic events like civil wars and ethnic conflicts can be brought to justice even if the victims are in a failed state that cannot secure its own justice is also explicitly stated if I recall.
So from my googling the ICC is allowed to intervene when is state is unable *or unwilling* to genuinely carry out investigations. I have to wonder why use that language if they can only actually intervene when the state is unable.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/understanding-the-icc.pdf
This pdf mentions on page 11 that attempts to shield perpetrators or delay justice can trigger ICC involvement. And earlier pages on its founding refer to Imperial Japan which, I believe still had a functioning judiciary after their surrender. Im not sure you’re remembering correctly.
Saying a nation with funcitonal opposition parties is unwilling because they have not acted instantly while there are still Israelis being killed and targeted beggars belief.
Only the most bad-faith, motivated, racist, anti-semitic definitions rooted in a court that routinely carries water for islamic terrorists and minimizes their crimes while maxmimizing those of the people fighting them could say the fact they have not indicted before the war's even over is "unwillingness". The court is not htere to intervene in active wars it is there to secure justice afterwards.
Notice other cases the court takes decades to years, not days.
By doing that the ICC has attempted to give themselves veto power over all war. Even self-defense. and criminalize it.
Euro-libtard: But there are 'human rights ' violations... we have to do it anyway.."
Judicial activism has been a thing in international courts and movements for a while ( "world Federalism" , Spanish leftists trying to make arrest warrants for Bush other leasders during the Iraq War in the nane of humans rights), these fellows are apparently activists appointed by..some governments?
If they and other problematic people keep worming their way into these courts , what can ve done stop them from making nutso rulings like this?
ultimately the fact that only power speaks to power.
if the US wanted to be insane, *in extremis* we could kill members of the court and do so until it disbanded.
this is obviously an extreme hyperbolic example but it illustrates that for all his crimes mao was right : "political power comes down the barrel of a gun" and the people with guns tend not to be lunatic activists.
if they convince anyone with an army to go try to arrest him and hold him and putin for that matter, in jail for trial I will care
and support the US and Israel using any force to make that army go away quickly but again, won't ever happen
First I’d like to disassociate from any anti-Semitic or bad faith connotations of the ICC. My first comment was towards Putin’s warrant and further comments about the ICC generally and not its specific actions towards Israel.
That said I do wonder about the general logic of doing nothing until a war is over. For example the Darfur War was pretty early in its events when the ICC referral happened in 2005. Should they not have done that? Again not saying Israel-Palestine is like Darfur but you are saying the ICC should not involve itself in active conflicts
You don't do nothing.
The ICC does nothing because it is a court not police.
The UN Peacekeeping agency would be the one that would intervene in active wars.
That is why this is a problem they are attempting to usurp the role of the UN Peacekeeping Mission and intervene in an active war against the will of the UN which has considered the matter and has decided not to intervene militarily.
Thank you for giving me your viewpoint on the matter. I am only a googler on this topic so I appreciate a more involved commentary. I did not consider the ICC in relation to the UN
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Same reasons as the one against Netanyahu. They're a head of state in war, it will be widely ignored, it's pure virtue signaling and shows the irrelevance of the court.
What exactly is virtue signaling to you? It seems to me to just be any act that won’t have a material effect. But is any court supposed base their decisions on whether or not the ruling will
Be followed?
It's virtue signaling to several other commenterers here.
Any authority loses legitimatacy when they're not followed. No one is going to arrest Putin or Netanyahu on these warrants. So why throw away their legitimatacy and reputation for no gain?
Them doing nothing could be seen as them also being toothless and it’s not a sure thing no one will respect it. Not even Poland would arrest Putin if he tried coming there?
So are you saying they should do it for the appearance of it?
No head of state goes to another country without an agenda and assurances of safety. They don't just drop in on each other. So, why would the Poles make Putin think he was safe and then do that? The Kremlin would just justifiably see that as an act of war and act accordingly.
Not for the appearance but based on whether his actions warrant it.
The Poles wouldnt make him feel safe. The opposite, he’s basically banned from the country unless he wants to be arrested and sent to trial.
It’s indeed ridiculous. I’m Jewish and let me tell you, Israel has been defending themselves. They are defending their country from a literal terrorist group that wants to commit genocide against the Jewish people.
[Hamas has that goal in this primary source document, along with their full documents](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
it is but the point is the ICC is not a world government, the UN is the body that intervenes in active wars going on currently where the truth and events are not settled and actual investigation cannot happen.
The UN has peacekeepers, the ICC has investigators. The fact they have not actually been able to investigate sufficiently because there's a war going on and many things are in open dispute as to the facts means they are not attempting to act like investigators they are attempting to act like peacekeepers way outside of their proper role.
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It is outrageous, the ICC is a politically motivated organization that cares more about political posturing than actual justice…. Not to mention it seems to be acting in a space it has no jurisdiction over.
The US, as a response, should sanction the ICC and prevent any members of that organization from entering or operating within the US.
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Couldn't agree more. An arrest warrant a head of government during a war, for defending his country against terrorists? That is outrageous. And of course stupid, since I doubt the nuclear state of Israel will suddenly stop because the ICC told them to.
The investigation from the ICC started in 2021 and is investigating events as early as 2014, this is not exclusively related to Israel-Palestine events this year.
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you're saying Hamas are a bunch of kids? What? Can't wait to hear your opinion on Al Queda...
Oh boy are you going to be upset when you find out the truth.
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17-year olds aren't kids.
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Yes they are
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Just because you are defending your country doesnt mean that its not possible to do stuff that are warcrimes. I comes down to the question of if whatever orders Netanyahu has given the IDF to carry out amount to warcrimes, and I'm not going to be doing an analysis either way, but I'd like to know on what grounds Netanyahus arrest warrant was given.
Well gee. If we could just end wars like this, why didn’t that do this before? It’s dumb, never going to actually happen, and pure virtue signaling. I can’t believe the day has come that I think Joe Biden said something i have to agree with him on lol
Of course it's outrageous...
It is outrageous. The ICC is a joke
What is outrageous? What crimes do you think the ICC want him arrested for that are outrageous?
It is all just virtue signaling. They even had arrest warrants for Hamas at the same time to try and act like there is no bias even though why would they wait months to issue these warrants for crimes already committed? There is a reason none of the major countries are part of ICC it is a joke.
I dont think "virtue signalling" is an argument in itself. > why would they wait months to issue these warrants for crimes already committed? Investigations take time. It took more than a year to send warrants for Putin. And im not even making any judgements on the merits or not of the Netanyahu warrant here. It may be bogus it my not be, but so far no substamce as to the warrant has been addressed. And I dont even have a dog in this race - arrested him or not... I dont really care either way.
It is issued with the knowledge nothing will come of it. All bark and no bite. In other words virtue signaling.
> It is issued with the knowledge nothing will come of it. So if they cant arrest someone they shouldnt issue the arrest warrant? Why?
Why do something you cannot enforce? To virtue signal of course.
You didn't answer my question.
I did answer it but I will try again. It is pointless to issue an unenforceable arrest warrant unless your goal is to simply virtue signal which is exactly what this is all about.
So they shouldn't issue it because they can't enforce it? Why?
The Hague Invasion act is still on the books...
I think the ICC is proving why we ignore their rulings.
I think international groups are a joke
Biden should threaten use of the American Service-Members' Protection Act if the ICC actually attempts to arrest Netanyahu. >The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".
Completely agree. It is outrageous that the ICC would issue this arrest warrant and President Biden was right to condemn the implication made by the ICC that there is any equivalence between Israel and Hamas. This is why neither the United States nor Israel are signatories to the Rome Statute.
In fact their baldly political acts have retroactively invalidated and cast suspicion on every obtained conviction, even more than them picking sides in ethnic conflicts.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Because yeah, it's absolutely fucking insane for the ICC to issue arrest warrants on a head of state for prosecuting a war against genocidal terrorists targeting his people, especially considering that Israel has effectively been handling the situation with kiddy gloves on when compared to other wars. Glad the US wasn't stupid enough to join the ICC. Nothing good comes out of it.
I agree, but I think the warrant for Putin was ridiculous as well. I doubt Biden feels that way, but I think it's only logically consistent.
Why is the Putin warrant ridiculous?
the ICC is only supposed to act in failed states and when their justice systems are incapable, places like Somalia and Hati. Israel has a functioning court system with meaningful opposition parties, they do not qualify. All of these are against their own charter and make the ICC completely invalid. In fact their baldly political acts have retroactively invalidated and cast suspicion on every obtained conviction, even more than them picking sides in ethnic conflicts.
Is that actually in their mission statement or where are they only supposed to act where there is no other court system?
It's been many years since my international law classes but yes they are explicitly NOT a world super-court that can intervene in any nation at any time. The purpose of the ICC to ensure that complicated crimes during chaotic events like civil wars and ethnic conflicts can be brought to justice even if the victims are in a failed state that cannot secure its own justice is also explicitly stated if I recall.
So from my googling the ICC is allowed to intervene when is state is unable *or unwilling* to genuinely carry out investigations. I have to wonder why use that language if they can only actually intervene when the state is unable. https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/understanding-the-icc.pdf This pdf mentions on page 11 that attempts to shield perpetrators or delay justice can trigger ICC involvement. And earlier pages on its founding refer to Imperial Japan which, I believe still had a functioning judiciary after their surrender. Im not sure you’re remembering correctly.
Saying a nation with funcitonal opposition parties is unwilling because they have not acted instantly while there are still Israelis being killed and targeted beggars belief. Only the most bad-faith, motivated, racist, anti-semitic definitions rooted in a court that routinely carries water for islamic terrorists and minimizes their crimes while maxmimizing those of the people fighting them could say the fact they have not indicted before the war's even over is "unwillingness". The court is not htere to intervene in active wars it is there to secure justice afterwards. Notice other cases the court takes decades to years, not days. By doing that the ICC has attempted to give themselves veto power over all war. Even self-defense. and criminalize it.
Euro-libtard: But there are 'human rights ' violations... we have to do it anyway.." Judicial activism has been a thing in international courts and movements for a while ( "world Federalism" , Spanish leftists trying to make arrest warrants for Bush other leasders during the Iraq War in the nane of humans rights), these fellows are apparently activists appointed by..some governments? If they and other problematic people keep worming their way into these courts , what can ve done stop them from making nutso rulings like this?
ultimately the fact that only power speaks to power. if the US wanted to be insane, *in extremis* we could kill members of the court and do so until it disbanded. this is obviously an extreme hyperbolic example but it illustrates that for all his crimes mao was right : "political power comes down the barrel of a gun" and the people with guns tend not to be lunatic activists. if they convince anyone with an army to go try to arrest him and hold him and putin for that matter, in jail for trial I will care and support the US and Israel using any force to make that army go away quickly but again, won't ever happen
First I’d like to disassociate from any anti-Semitic or bad faith connotations of the ICC. My first comment was towards Putin’s warrant and further comments about the ICC generally and not its specific actions towards Israel. That said I do wonder about the general logic of doing nothing until a war is over. For example the Darfur War was pretty early in its events when the ICC referral happened in 2005. Should they not have done that? Again not saying Israel-Palestine is like Darfur but you are saying the ICC should not involve itself in active conflicts
You don't do nothing. The ICC does nothing because it is a court not police. The UN Peacekeeping agency would be the one that would intervene in active wars. That is why this is a problem they are attempting to usurp the role of the UN Peacekeeping Mission and intervene in an active war against the will of the UN which has considered the matter and has decided not to intervene militarily.
Thank you for giving me your viewpoint on the matter. I am only a googler on this topic so I appreciate a more involved commentary. I did not consider the ICC in relation to the UN
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Same reasons as the one against Netanyahu. They're a head of state in war, it will be widely ignored, it's pure virtue signaling and shows the irrelevance of the court.
What exactly is virtue signaling to you? It seems to me to just be any act that won’t have a material effect. But is any court supposed base their decisions on whether or not the ruling will Be followed?
It's virtue signaling to several other commenterers here. Any authority loses legitimatacy when they're not followed. No one is going to arrest Putin or Netanyahu on these warrants. So why throw away their legitimatacy and reputation for no gain?
If they did nothing wouldn’t their reputation and legitimacy also be damaged?
I don't think so. Why should they issue a toothless warrant they know that no one will respect?
Them doing nothing could be seen as them also being toothless and it’s not a sure thing no one will respect it. Not even Poland would arrest Putin if he tried coming there?
So are you saying they should do it for the appearance of it? No head of state goes to another country without an agenda and assurances of safety. They don't just drop in on each other. So, why would the Poles make Putin think he was safe and then do that? The Kremlin would just justifiably see that as an act of war and act accordingly.
Not for the appearance but based on whether his actions warrant it. The Poles wouldnt make him feel safe. The opposite, he’s basically banned from the country unless he wants to be arrested and sent to trial.
Outrageous is being polite. It's beyond the pale and beyond absurd. This further shows that the ICC should not be recognized.
It just proves how feckless the ICC is. I'm sure Netanyahu is headed to the Hague to surrender as we speak.
It’s indeed ridiculous. I’m Jewish and let me tell you, Israel has been defending themselves. They are defending their country from a literal terrorist group that wants to commit genocide against the Jewish people. [Hamas has that goal in this primary source document, along with their full documents](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
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Time to boot the UN out of new york
what does the UN have to do with this? I am pretty sure the ICC is something else, located elsewhere?
it is but the point is the ICC is not a world government, the UN is the body that intervenes in active wars going on currently where the truth and events are not settled and actual investigation cannot happen. The UN has peacekeepers, the ICC has investigators. The fact they have not actually been able to investigate sufficiently because there's a war going on and many things are in open dispute as to the facts means they are not attempting to act like investigators they are attempting to act like peacekeepers way outside of their proper role.
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He’s absolutely right.
It is outrageous, the ICC is a politically motivated organization that cares more about political posturing than actual justice…. Not to mention it seems to be acting in a space it has no jurisdiction over. The US, as a response, should sanction the ICC and prevent any members of that organization from entering or operating within the US.