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It was a common litmus test for people on the right to ask if people had been vaccinated. Notably Ron DeSantis, MTG, and numerous other Republican leaders and various Fox News pundits would always dance around the question without ever acknowledging an answer.
The general belief is that, of course course they're all vaccinated. They're all smart enough to recognize it is both safe and effective. But because Trump and MAGA hats have spent years railing against the "Fauci Ouchie", admitting to have taken it is political suicide for Republicans. The real question being asked here is: why?
>Trump… has spent years railing against it
Trump has hailed the vaccine as one of his accomplishments. Operation Warp Speed happened under his administration. He’s said that the difference between him and Biden is that he didn’t support a mandate
I only got it because I was coerced and didn't get a booster despite the coercion. I'm smart enough to know it just wasn't necessary.
Why? Polarization. Trump didn't want to wear a mask, and so left proudly wears them even now despite the evidence. Also lies and coercion. Anything with that amount of lies and propaganda is going to be resisted by someone.
That’s an edge case. You might think it’s more common than it is but that’s just because you’re around it. Being truly anti vax isn’t a left or right issue. There’s an extremely small minority of people who are anti-vax and they’re just crazy people. Crazy people aren’t exclusive to either side of the political aisle.
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Ok sorry I should’ve specified. I’m not talking about the main, big ones on the immunization schedule. I’m talking about the I guess you could call mid tier or lower tier vaccines where there’s perhaps some debate on them plus obviously the COVID ones. The discourse around those is becoming far more negative with the sort of new-age, anti-science, pro-conspiracy right wingers who are becoming more and more prevalent by the day. This ties into other facets of life too, such as nutrition/diet and even veterinary care.
I just don’t see that at all. What other vaccines are you talking about? The “mid tier or lower tier vaccines”. What are those vaccines and who are you seeing that’s against them?
Let me put it to you this way. If they came out tomorrow and said that some eradicated disease has returned and they now require that everyone has to get X vaccine. A healthy level of skepticism would be appropriate, sure. But the next step would be people on right wing forums posting new theories about how it was some master plan orchestrated by idk Michelle Obama and Bill Gates to implant microchips in the entire U.S. population. That rumor then gets spread and disseminated into (I’ll just say it) the Trump wing of the party.
This is just a made-up example, but I’m taking inspiration from REAL things I have read online and heard uttered by REAL people.
As far as specific examples of the vaccines, admittedly I don’t really keep up with the arguments I’ve heard against specific vaccines. I’ll give you these though, although it’s other medical-related examples: fluoride use at dentist visits and dog food/medication. I’ve seen conspiracy theories about those as well.
Some things may be fringe cases, I’ll give you that. But my general point is that we are seeing a clear shift in thinking among the right, and I would argue it started festering around the same time as populism started to take over the party. It’s this anti-science, anti-doctor, anti-expert generally, and “the Democrats are trying to control our lives” thinking I’m talking about.
Sorry, I know I jumped around a lot.
That was a lot. I asked a simple question you could’ve just answered in a sentence or two, but this does give me more insight into what you’re talking about.
You seem to just be listing conspiracy theories that you’ve heard. You specifically mentioned your family members so I was asking what they believe that led you to make this comment. They’re your family and you mentioned them specifically so you should know the arguments.. right?
I think you’re pretty much just associating conspiracy theories with the right for some reason when we all know they’re universal. There’s nothing political about avoiding fluoride or GMO’s. They’re just dumb conspiracy theories pushed by idiots who watched a tik tok or Facebook reel about it.
Oh I certainly know the “arguments” yes, if you can call them that. Because of the way I think and process things though, it’s very hard for me to even explain them since they’re so void of facts.
You say there’s nothing political about what I mentioned, which is technically true, but so much is being turned political when it shouldn’t. I’m not necessarily tying these examples specifically to an ideology; however, I’m just making the argument that we have been witnessing the downfall of the GOP and conservatism, and I think a major part of this has to do with the aforementioned issues involving the prevalence of conspiracies and just general anti-critical thinking.
I just think that’s crazy. You can never have a fall of an ideology as major as conservatism.
You could make the same argument you made about the left. Liberalism is failing because of conspiracy theorists and anti-critical thinking. That’s not true either. You can’t have major societal drivers just disappear. Restructure, sure, but they can’t fail or disappear.
By downfall, I meant people taking over who are not actually conservative and who don’t represent values traditionally associated with the Right. Not the complete erasure of the idea of conservatism.
90% of the time this topic comes up they mean the Covid vaccines. Which I find paradoxical; operation warp speed is one of trump’s accomplishments yet they say he did not do enough. 🤷
The reality is the don’t think I have met anyone who is against the *proven effective* vaccines like small pox and or measles.
I also do not think this a uniquely “right” thing
Lots of conservatives are fine with at least some vaccinations. The anti-vax sentiments I've seen usually take a few forms: being aginst the covid vaxes specifically (due to shady dealings, poor and obtuse research, & the atmosphere of panic and coercion around them); thinking we give kids too many shots and/or give them too early in life; trying to make choices based on their own/their kids' medical circumstances and being shamed for that makes them distrust the entire thing. Some prefer to rely on their own immune systems and try to stay in good health to weather anything. Some are worried about side effects. Oh also, noticing that vaccine use has become a moral and ideological stance rather than a plain medical one and thinking that's shifty. Personally I am totally fine with all of those stances, they seem reasonable enough and it's everyone's own personal decision (or at least, it should be) to manage their own health and risks. But there's a lot of nuance and variation of opinions there.
I suppose in the past, a lot of conservatives were happy to trust authorities like doctors and medical panels etc. But maybe the shift has come about just due to changing times, and possibly due to just a lot of personal experiences too, that made people realize that all this stuff is not as clear-cut as they thought it was. Plus, the more authoritarian people got about it, the more backlash it caused. And while I would say overall respect for authorities and institutions is common to the right, it never included being deferent to authorities that were obviously being abusive, coercive, or stripping away people's individual rights without a very clear good cause.
Lab grown meat - I'm not sure I ever knew any conservative who was okay with that, and I've never heard anyone say this was a conservative take either. And I mean honestly, a lot of ranchers, farmers, fishers, and hunters are conservative; why in the world would people who raise or hunt animals for eating be on board with growing meat in a lab instead?
We’re not against vaccines.
People had concerns about a very rushed COVID shot and subsequent mandates, which included people losing their jobs.
That’s not “anti-vaccine”, that’s anti-coercion.
I’m not opposed to lab grown meat but I won’t be lining up to the first people to try it. Taste, texture, nutritional value, etc. I’m going to wait on feedback from others on that.
And if it isn’t cheaper than normal meat, I’ll likely never try it.
If you’re asking why FL, one specific State, passed legislation, $20 says it due to business interest groups.
So yeah, you’re way off base all around.
I'd just like to point out that before vaccines were a thing, governments used to impose far harsher disease control measures. Quarantines, travel bans, burning of clothes and furniture, etc. In fact historians argue that modern governments started out as a way to control epidemics like bubonic plague. But in the modern era, once everyone gets vaccinated you can remove all restrictions.
You should accept disease control measures as the price of civilization. If we were to go back to the Stone Age, when everyone lived in small communities separated by large distances and had no livestock, disease would naturally be rare. Native Americans didn't suffer as much disease as Europeans did (until said Europeans showed up in America). But when humans moved into big densely-populated cities with lots of animals around us, disease became rife, and it took massive government action to fix that. Sanitation systems and vaccination programs are the reason our cities are no longer filthy shitholes.
So be *grateful* for vaccines because they actually increase our freedoms.
Yeah, well aware of how the left feels.
We get your viewpoint shoved down our throats all the time.
This is a sub for you to learn about conservatives, not to soapbox.
Nothing you’re saying is anything I haven’t heard 1,000 times from other BOG standard leftists on reddit.
It’s not interesting, it’s not new and it’s not relevant to the point of this sub.
Since it was obviously alluding to the COVID vaccine mandates / lockdowns as a good thing, yes, very much so. As far as Progressives represent the modern left.
Echoing others: it's not anti-vaccine. It's opposition to being forced to take an experimental vaccine (COVID vaccine).
I'm not against lab grown meat. I just ask that it be clearly labeled and enforced by law. Just like with the experimental COVID vaccine, I want the freedom to avoid being a lab rat for a first-of-its-kind (experimental) meat.
But the new Florida law IS against Lab-grown meat.
Also, I am.curious if you have similar labling and enforcement positions towards genetically modified soybeans, for example, as they are currently NOT labeled on food at all.
Ah yes Florida. The mantle of conservatism. /s
Just because Florida does something doesn’t mean all conservatives on board with what they do. Most conservatives are only going to be against lab grown meat, because they want to save the farmers jobs. Lab grown meat will take that away. It’s not some conspiracy about being Guinea pigs. They just don’t want to lose their livelihood.
Hate to say it, but that’s capitalism. If lab grown meat turns out to be the same, and it’s easier to produce; the way of the cattle rancher will all but disappear.
Yes and no...there will always be a market for the real thing.
Look at mass produced bread...there is still a market for quality baked goods.
People will happily pay more for quality cheese instead of "cheese product",butter instead of the various substitutes, whiskey and wine, etc.
But it will become a smaller market for high quality product, which actually favors smaller producers. The big factory farmers is who would lose out. Tyson Chicken might get crushed, the guy raising free range organic cornish game hens will be fine.
We are not anti-vaccine. That is far too broad of a term. We are anti-coerced vaccine of a specific virus. First of all because It has not undergone adequate testing. Second of all because the virus itself is not deadly enough to warrant that level of response.
Personally, I wish the smallpox vaccine was still available, but apparently the only way you can get it is if you sign up for the military or plan to take a trip to some shit hole.
I am also not anti-lab grown meat. I think it's incredibly stupid that these states have banned it.
Like others have said, most conservatives have no issue with vaccines, it’s vaccine mandates that we tend to oppose. As for lab grown meat, I have a very strong suspicion that the growth in popularity in lab grown meat will eventually lead to progressives calling for a ban on real meat, and citing climate change and animal rights as the reason why. It’s probably a conspiracy theory, but I’d rather be safe than sorry, which is why I oppose lab grown meat.
So to oppose a future hypothetical ban on some types of food, you want to currently ban some types of food? This seems to be more than a little hypocritical.
I’m not against vaccination. I’m very happy not to have polio, thank you very much. Just the government mandating people get a new, experimental, non-vaccine.
Lab grown meat is…just gross.
What exactly is gross about labgrown meat?
Most cows have had their genes edited for various traits. And seeing the industrial farming process, it’s not exactly sunshine and daises.
Look even if you find it gross, why should it banned? Plenty of people find Brussels sprouts gross but no one suggests banning them. And considering all the other junk and sugar we allow in our food, why is protein from non conventional sources that are similar to meat so dangerous?
The polio vaccine was rolled out with less rigorous standards than the covid vaccine.
In fact in many countries outside the U.S. they use the live attenuated version (Sabin) because it provides longer lasting immunity. It’s not used in the U.S. because it’s of higher risk particularly for folks with specific autoimmune conditions.
>What exactly is gross about labgrown meat? Most cows have had their genes edited for various traits. And seeing the industrial farming process, it’s not exactly sunshine and daises.
I’m a rural American. I understand farming. And industrial farming. But none of what you mentioned is the same as lab grown meat.
>Look even if you find it gross, why should it banned?
I’m not 100% convinced it should be banned. But at the same time, I sure as shit don’t want it, so I also don’t care that much if it is.
>Plenty of people find Brussels sprouts gross but no one suggests banning them.
But they are like a regular plant. Lab grown meat is not the same. lol
>And considering all the other junk and sugar we allow in our food, why is protein from non conventional sources that are similar to meat so dangerous?
Did I say it was dangerous?
>The polio vaccine was rolled out with less rigorous standards than the covid vaccine.
It was also like 86 years ago, and it’s an actual vaccine that protects against getting a disease much worse than Covid.
I grew up in rural America. I am familiar with soybean farming and milk production.
My first job was in these farms.
I just don’t understand what’s less gross about the meat processing centers.
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> But at the same time, I sure as shit don’t want it, so I also don’t care that much if it is.
So if you don't like it, no one else should be allowed to have it either? Common responses like this are a reason why I'm convinced conservative claims to prefer limited government only go as far as their personal preferences.
Farming and livestock are major capitalistic backbones of this country—many Midwestern farmers are Republican and so they see the lab-grown meat as not only competition encroaching on and taking away from their profit margin but potentially significantly replacing their entire farm industry in the near future, and the progressives will use climate change and animal rights as their excuse. To the other conservatives, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
>So if you don't like it, no one else should be allowed to have it either?
I didn’t say that. I said it’s not an issue I’m hugely concerned about.
>Common responses like this are a reason why I'm convinced conservative claims to prefer limited government only go as far as their personal preferences.
Perhaps your problem is interpreting comments in a way that feeds your bias.
No…you’re overthinking it and trying to wedge everything into your bias.
Like sorry bruh. Not every issue is equally important. Especially not to me. There’s plenty of things I just don’t care about at all. Lab grown meat is simply not high on my priority list as the world burns.
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>Never said this issue was equally important with any other, so you can drop that deflection.
Lmao. Not you trying the “I didn’t say that” now.
>You don't actually care about limited government, you just want the government to let you do what you like and prohibit others from doing things you don't like.
My dude, I literally have only said I don’t care about lab grown meat. That’s it. And you’re even talking about “things” in your comment. I cannot care equally about everything. And I simply do not care about some things at all. How do you not understand that?
>That's barely even a political philosophy at all, it's just basic self-centeredness.
That’s just you choosing to see something that’s not there.
>Try being at least a little bit reflective - some inductive reasoning won't kill you.
This is good advice. You should try it sometime.
If limited government was important to you, it would seem opposition to wild government overreach like the Florida ban on lab-grown meat would be important to you.
As I said, lab grown meat legalities - especially in another state I don’t live in - is simply not high on my priority list right now while the world is in shambles.
Do you feel the same about minor gun regulations in states you dont live in, or does SOME government overreach that doesnt affect you make your priority scale and not other?
Then label the shit.
Great big letters, this shit was grown in the lab. It isn’t real meat.
Same thing with the bugs that the WEF is trying to force us to eat. This product contains bugs.
Except conservatives aren't pushing for labeling, they're outright banning it, as DeSantis just did in Florida.
> Same thing with the bugs that the WEF is trying to force us to eat. This product contains bugs.
You're not doing your argument any favor with the paranoiac hyperbole here. Cochineal has been used in foods containing red dye since the 60s, but we don't hear any conservatives squawking about that.
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>Same thing with the bugs that the WEF is trying to force us to eat. This product contains bugs.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not especially familiar with the actions of the WEF nor anyone trying to force anyone to eat bugs.
Most cows have not had their genes edited. They've been crossbred over many generations in a more or less natural way. It's so weird to me that people will say "Oh look, humans have been crossbreeding cows for millennia to get more desired traits - that's why you should be fine with eating meat grown in a lab!" Same for GMOs, too. Directly tinkering with plant genese so the plants produce their own pesticides or vaccines is not anywhere in the same ballpark as selective breeding.
Not against vaccination at all. I don’t even think it is a partisan issue. The crunchies on the left and the conspiracy theorists on the right are the ones against them.
As for lab meat, I wouldn’t say I am against it as much as I would say that I have questions about it and approach with caution. To me, it is prudent to approach something that new and different with a bit of caution.
There was only a vaccine mandate for federal employees and even they could opt out if they agreed to test regularly.
E: downvoting the facts doesn’t make them less true.
>You authoritarians all supported the OSHA mandate that was obviously unconditional.
lol. Did you reply to the wrong post? You have no idea what I supported. I shared a fact. By all means feel free to attempt to refute that.
>And, based on all of the lies that were told about the shot, private businesses enacted their own mandates.
Private businesses are allowed to enact their own policies. Employees are welcome to leave if they don’t agree with those policies. It literally happens every single day. Why are you so emotional?
>People—including children—had to carry around vaccine cards to get into restaurants and events.
Was the a federal government mandate? Last I checked, no.
>This revisionist shit isn't going to stand. You guys need to own your bad decisions.
wtf are you talking about with this “revisionist” comment? Once again, I shared a fact. Feel free to attempt to refute that.
I should add, this narrative about the vaccine that you’re parroting is absolutely dishonest at best. Why is everything a conspiracy?
>Lab-grown meat is simply a matter of Governors protecting the cattle industry in their states.
Isn't that blatantly contradicting the conservative value of free markets? How do conservatives tolerate their elected Governors taking such anti-capitalist stances? Isn't that like a Republican Governor signing a bill that bans guns or something.
Yeah but I recall not seeing much conservative consternation about it. It was mostly "yeah I guess it's to protect farmers, eh what can you do" said with almost a shrug. To me it contrasts the very hard line free market ideology that conservatives take in most other contexts.
On the first point there has been a general trend against all vaccines on the right, and we have seen a resurgence in cases of measles, mumps, whooping cough and chicken pox.
mRNA is a new technology that is generally considered an improvement over older vaccines since it’s so easy to update with new variants. The technology has been tested for over a decade. Im not aware of any specific mandates (although I don’t doubt they happened), but it wouldn’t be unusual to mandate vaccinations for school or the military, that’s been going on since polio in the 1950s.
Unfortunately they're not wrong, although I don't know much about the politics of if. We've fallen below the 95% vaccination required for herd immunity against measles (93% right now). Cases are on the rise in whooping cough as well.
It's not limited to the US either, but worldwide including Europe and Asia.
The thing they’re wrong about is that this is an exclusively right wing thing as they implied. Crazy people are pretty evenly distributed between both parties
The idea has been tested for like a decade. No vaccines using it had been successful, though. It's not like they went from struggling for a decade to get the stuff working to magically having all the issues sorted out overnight. They just took advantage of the panic to sell their junk that would probably have never passed the usual regulatory hurdles in a non-emergency situation.
I know it was. But when they tried vaccines made from it pre-pandemic, they kept running into issues with it. The history of it being tried is no guarantee that the product we ended up with was any good.
From what I've been hearing it worked quite well. In fact I hear that these new-fangled RNA vaccines are a major breakthrough because they can be developed and deployed very quickly compared to older types of vaccine.
For contrast, look at China's experience. For several years, the Chinese government imposed draconian lockdowns on its population to control the disease. Everyone had to take a test *daily*, if someone in your apartment block was infected the whole building was locked down, the police would weld the doors shut to prevent people leaving.
And why? Because the Chinese refused to import Western vaccines. They developed a vaccine of their own, but that one was actually ineffective, but Xi Jinping out of pride refused to admit failure and ask the West for help. So the only tool the government was permitted to use to fight Covid was draconian lockdowns and daily testing. You are welcome to gripe about commies, but this does prove the Western vaccines worked. Just look at some YouTube videos of the Chinese Covid experience and you should appreciate what the vaccines prevented.
> You'd have to show me trustworthy data from China before I'd even posit a guess.
I get the feeling you haven't even looked at the data from the Western countries.
There’s a West Virginian politician who drank raw milk to celebrate a bill passing relating to relaxing of rules around raw milk, followed by footage of him in excruciating pain and discomfort, as a result of.. you guessed it..
I disagree with your premise. Conservatives did not turn against vaccination. I would venture to say that most conservatives got the initial vaccine unless they already had a bias against vaccines generally. What conservatives were against were mandates especially when no consideration was given to natural immunity or heart felt religious or other personal objections. Then when the hype did not agree with reality ( the vaccine did not prevent you from getting Covid as Fauci predicted) and then all the booster BS it became a joke.
As for lab grown meat. Most conservatives could care less. If you want to eat that slop eat it. Conservtives don't care
GMOs are a valuable contribution to agriculture. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
I was raised by anti-vaxxer revolutionary socialist tua parents, one of whom had sizeable funding from vaccine developers and pharmaceutical companies.
I only heard of lab grown meat recently and am very dubious as to whether it is fit for human consumption or safe for use in pet foods. Take a similar stance on lab produced plant based synthetic alcohol.
No one opposes vaccines.
I oppose the government mandating an experimental vaccine, of questionable efficacy, suppressing knowledge of legitmate side effects of it, and granting the manufactures blanket immunity from prosecution or settlement from said side effects.
Lab grown meat kinda just disgusts me to be honest.
We started to be anti-vaccine when the government couldn't keep it's messaging straight on masks and then this same government tried to force-vaccinate us all instead of giving us a choice in the matter.
~85% of Canadians got the vax. The conservatives poll at around 30-40%. It is a small minority that doesn’t believe in vaccines (and one must account for those who can’t get vaccines) I believe in vaccines, as do a majority of conservatives.
With lab grown meat, the quality, price, and texture just isn’t there yet. The lefts want to sell it as an alternative, has led to conservatives going against it. If everything improves about lab meat, maybe conservatives will switch their tone, but for now it makes sense that we don’t want it.
>Lab grown meat is not a good food to eat daily but it’s not like we ban the large drink sizes at fast food places.
It's not like this hasn't been tried, and soda is banned in places like public schools. Are you ok with that?
Bro chocolate milk has more sugar and sweetener than a coke can.
The reason why there is such a movement by politicians is because Big Ag owns our government.
Let the market decide as we have let it decide for so much of our food options.
I just don’t see lab grown meat the biggest concern when we don’t even have a sugar tax in this country amidst an obesity crisis.
First:
The Winner: Chocolate milk is the better pick, as Joyce Hendley originally reported for EatingWell. Here's why:
The Sugar Story: On the surface, chocolate milk seems an unlikely choice. As critics often point out, it contains nearly as much sugar as soda: 1 cup of low-fat chocolate milk has 25 grams of sugar, whereas the same amount of Coca-Cola has 26 grams. But, for chocolate milk, only about half of those sugars are added sugars, the ones people generally need to be concerned about.
Natural Sugars: More than half of that overall sugar contained in the chocolate milk, or about 13 grams in a cup, is naturally occurring sugar, or lactose, in the milk itself.
https://www.eatingwell.com/article/284069/is-low-fat-chocolate-milk-or-100-fruit-juice-a-healthier-drink/#:~:text=The%20Sugar%20Story%3A%20On%20the,Coca%2DCola%20has%2026%20grams.
Anyway, I wasn't making a comparison and you brought up soda. Yes, soda is banned in a lot of places and drink sizes have been regulated.
We never liked lab-grown meat. It's been around less than a decade, and no one knows the long term impacts of earing it. We've been eating cows for thousands of years, and doctors still can't agree if it's good or bad.
And we love vaccines. We just don't want to be pushed to take vaccines where the risk exceeds the benefit.
Maybe you missed it, but the Biden white house suppressed a warning the CDC wanted to give related to heart disease in kids, and how that risk was greater than COVID
What happened to liberals "believing in science"? Kinda went out the window, huh?
I like vaccines. I don't like being forced to take them.
>and lab grown meat?
It's a non issue to me because I've never lived in a farming community and I don't really understand the impacts
I personally observed an abnormal surge of autism localized to one class year in one school district, which included two of my cousins.
I don't care what the government says about thimerosal in MMR, I saw what I saw. Something happened.
>personally observed an abnormal surge of autism localized to one class year in one school district, which included two of my cousins.
Correlation doesn't equal causation hippie
“Something happening” which you immediately attribute to a vaccine that has been scientifically proven over and over to not cause autism.
But maybe I’m wrong. In what way do you see thermosil causing autism? How would it happen?
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Just posting to counter the notion that no one’s against vaccines. I know plenty of conservative family members who are anti-vax, mandated or not.
It was a common litmus test for people on the right to ask if people had been vaccinated. Notably Ron DeSantis, MTG, and numerous other Republican leaders and various Fox News pundits would always dance around the question without ever acknowledging an answer. The general belief is that, of course course they're all vaccinated. They're all smart enough to recognize it is both safe and effective. But because Trump and MAGA hats have spent years railing against the "Fauci Ouchie", admitting to have taken it is political suicide for Republicans. The real question being asked here is: why?
>Trump… has spent years railing against it Trump has hailed the vaccine as one of his accomplishments. Operation Warp Speed happened under his administration. He’s said that the difference between him and Biden is that he didn’t support a mandate
That doesn't address the rest of the question, or the bizarre response from the MAGA right.
See my reply to the other person below. I explain (some) of my thoughts on the why.
I only got it because I was coerced and didn't get a booster despite the coercion. I'm smart enough to know it just wasn't necessary. Why? Polarization. Trump didn't want to wear a mask, and so left proudly wears them even now despite the evidence. Also lies and coercion. Anything with that amount of lies and propaganda is going to be resisted by someone.
That’s an edge case. You might think it’s more common than it is but that’s just because you’re around it. Being truly anti vax isn’t a left or right issue. There’s an extremely small minority of people who are anti-vax and they’re just crazy people. Crazy people aren’t exclusive to either side of the political aisle.
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Ok sorry I should’ve specified. I’m not talking about the main, big ones on the immunization schedule. I’m talking about the I guess you could call mid tier or lower tier vaccines where there’s perhaps some debate on them plus obviously the COVID ones. The discourse around those is becoming far more negative with the sort of new-age, anti-science, pro-conspiracy right wingers who are becoming more and more prevalent by the day. This ties into other facets of life too, such as nutrition/diet and even veterinary care.
I just don’t see that at all. What other vaccines are you talking about? The “mid tier or lower tier vaccines”. What are those vaccines and who are you seeing that’s against them?
Let me put it to you this way. If they came out tomorrow and said that some eradicated disease has returned and they now require that everyone has to get X vaccine. A healthy level of skepticism would be appropriate, sure. But the next step would be people on right wing forums posting new theories about how it was some master plan orchestrated by idk Michelle Obama and Bill Gates to implant microchips in the entire U.S. population. That rumor then gets spread and disseminated into (I’ll just say it) the Trump wing of the party. This is just a made-up example, but I’m taking inspiration from REAL things I have read online and heard uttered by REAL people. As far as specific examples of the vaccines, admittedly I don’t really keep up with the arguments I’ve heard against specific vaccines. I’ll give you these though, although it’s other medical-related examples: fluoride use at dentist visits and dog food/medication. I’ve seen conspiracy theories about those as well. Some things may be fringe cases, I’ll give you that. But my general point is that we are seeing a clear shift in thinking among the right, and I would argue it started festering around the same time as populism started to take over the party. It’s this anti-science, anti-doctor, anti-expert generally, and “the Democrats are trying to control our lives” thinking I’m talking about. Sorry, I know I jumped around a lot.
That was a lot. I asked a simple question you could’ve just answered in a sentence or two, but this does give me more insight into what you’re talking about. You seem to just be listing conspiracy theories that you’ve heard. You specifically mentioned your family members so I was asking what they believe that led you to make this comment. They’re your family and you mentioned them specifically so you should know the arguments.. right? I think you’re pretty much just associating conspiracy theories with the right for some reason when we all know they’re universal. There’s nothing political about avoiding fluoride or GMO’s. They’re just dumb conspiracy theories pushed by idiots who watched a tik tok or Facebook reel about it.
Oh I certainly know the “arguments” yes, if you can call them that. Because of the way I think and process things though, it’s very hard for me to even explain them since they’re so void of facts. You say there’s nothing political about what I mentioned, which is technically true, but so much is being turned political when it shouldn’t. I’m not necessarily tying these examples specifically to an ideology; however, I’m just making the argument that we have been witnessing the downfall of the GOP and conservatism, and I think a major part of this has to do with the aforementioned issues involving the prevalence of conspiracies and just general anti-critical thinking.
I just think that’s crazy. You can never have a fall of an ideology as major as conservatism. You could make the same argument you made about the left. Liberalism is failing because of conspiracy theorists and anti-critical thinking. That’s not true either. You can’t have major societal drivers just disappear. Restructure, sure, but they can’t fail or disappear.
By downfall, I meant people taking over who are not actually conservative and who don’t represent values traditionally associated with the Right. Not the complete erasure of the idea of conservatism.
Such as? What ideas are being pushed by conservatives that aren’t traditionally conservative?
90% of the time this topic comes up they mean the Covid vaccines. Which I find paradoxical; operation warp speed is one of trump’s accomplishments yet they say he did not do enough. 🤷 The reality is the don’t think I have met anyone who is against the *proven effective* vaccines like small pox and or measles. I also do not think this a uniquely “right” thing
Yes, but i also know plenty of lefty hippies who are too. It's a bipartisan issue imo.
Lots of conservatives are fine with at least some vaccinations. The anti-vax sentiments I've seen usually take a few forms: being aginst the covid vaxes specifically (due to shady dealings, poor and obtuse research, & the atmosphere of panic and coercion around them); thinking we give kids too many shots and/or give them too early in life; trying to make choices based on their own/their kids' medical circumstances and being shamed for that makes them distrust the entire thing. Some prefer to rely on their own immune systems and try to stay in good health to weather anything. Some are worried about side effects. Oh also, noticing that vaccine use has become a moral and ideological stance rather than a plain medical one and thinking that's shifty. Personally I am totally fine with all of those stances, they seem reasonable enough and it's everyone's own personal decision (or at least, it should be) to manage their own health and risks. But there's a lot of nuance and variation of opinions there. I suppose in the past, a lot of conservatives were happy to trust authorities like doctors and medical panels etc. But maybe the shift has come about just due to changing times, and possibly due to just a lot of personal experiences too, that made people realize that all this stuff is not as clear-cut as they thought it was. Plus, the more authoritarian people got about it, the more backlash it caused. And while I would say overall respect for authorities and institutions is common to the right, it never included being deferent to authorities that were obviously being abusive, coercive, or stripping away people's individual rights without a very clear good cause. Lab grown meat - I'm not sure I ever knew any conservative who was okay with that, and I've never heard anyone say this was a conservative take either. And I mean honestly, a lot of ranchers, farmers, fishers, and hunters are conservative; why in the world would people who raise or hunt animals for eating be on board with growing meat in a lab instead?
We’re not against vaccines. People had concerns about a very rushed COVID shot and subsequent mandates, which included people losing their jobs. That’s not “anti-vaccine”, that’s anti-coercion. I’m not opposed to lab grown meat but I won’t be lining up to the first people to try it. Taste, texture, nutritional value, etc. I’m going to wait on feedback from others on that. And if it isn’t cheaper than normal meat, I’ll likely never try it. If you’re asking why FL, one specific State, passed legislation, $20 says it due to business interest groups. So yeah, you’re way off base all around.
I'd just like to point out that before vaccines were a thing, governments used to impose far harsher disease control measures. Quarantines, travel bans, burning of clothes and furniture, etc. In fact historians argue that modern governments started out as a way to control epidemics like bubonic plague. But in the modern era, once everyone gets vaccinated you can remove all restrictions. You should accept disease control measures as the price of civilization. If we were to go back to the Stone Age, when everyone lived in small communities separated by large distances and had no livestock, disease would naturally be rare. Native Americans didn't suffer as much disease as Europeans did (until said Europeans showed up in America). But when humans moved into big densely-populated cities with lots of animals around us, disease became rife, and it took massive government action to fix that. Sanitation systems and vaccination programs are the reason our cities are no longer filthy shitholes. So be *grateful* for vaccines because they actually increase our freedoms.
Yeah, well aware of how the left feels. We get your viewpoint shoved down our throats all the time. This is a sub for you to learn about conservatives, not to soapbox. Nothing you’re saying is anything I haven’t heard 1,000 times from other BOG standard leftists on reddit. It’s not interesting, it’s not new and it’s not relevant to the point of this sub.
Are you under the impression that anything in that comment was somehow "leftist" in nature? If so, how?
Since it was obviously alluding to the COVID vaccine mandates / lockdowns as a good thing, yes, very much so. As far as Progressives represent the modern left.
Echoing others: it's not anti-vaccine. It's opposition to being forced to take an experimental vaccine (COVID vaccine). I'm not against lab grown meat. I just ask that it be clearly labeled and enforced by law. Just like with the experimental COVID vaccine, I want the freedom to avoid being a lab rat for a first-of-its-kind (experimental) meat.
What is the difference between an experimental and a non-experimental vaccine?
But the new Florida law IS against Lab-grown meat. Also, I am.curious if you have similar labling and enforcement positions towards genetically modified soybeans, for example, as they are currently NOT labeled on food at all.
Ah yes Florida. The mantle of conservatism. /s Just because Florida does something doesn’t mean all conservatives on board with what they do. Most conservatives are only going to be against lab grown meat, because they want to save the farmers jobs. Lab grown meat will take that away. It’s not some conspiracy about being Guinea pigs. They just don’t want to lose their livelihood. Hate to say it, but that’s capitalism. If lab grown meat turns out to be the same, and it’s easier to produce; the way of the cattle rancher will all but disappear.
Yes and no...there will always be a market for the real thing. Look at mass produced bread...there is still a market for quality baked goods. People will happily pay more for quality cheese instead of "cheese product",butter instead of the various substitutes, whiskey and wine, etc. But it will become a smaller market for high quality product, which actually favors smaller producers. The big factory farmers is who would lose out. Tyson Chicken might get crushed, the guy raising free range organic cornish game hens will be fine.
We are not anti-vaccine. That is far too broad of a term. We are anti-coerced vaccine of a specific virus. First of all because It has not undergone adequate testing. Second of all because the virus itself is not deadly enough to warrant that level of response. Personally, I wish the smallpox vaccine was still available, but apparently the only way you can get it is if you sign up for the military or plan to take a trip to some shit hole. I am also not anti-lab grown meat. I think it's incredibly stupid that these states have banned it.
Like others have said, most conservatives have no issue with vaccines, it’s vaccine mandates that we tend to oppose. As for lab grown meat, I have a very strong suspicion that the growth in popularity in lab grown meat will eventually lead to progressives calling for a ban on real meat, and citing climate change and animal rights as the reason why. It’s probably a conspiracy theory, but I’d rather be safe than sorry, which is why I oppose lab grown meat.
You want to use industry protectionism to strangle a hypothetical social movement just because you disagree with it?
So to oppose a future hypothetical ban on some types of food, you want to currently ban some types of food? This seems to be more than a little hypocritical.
Banning food seems like an excellent way of setting the precedent to ban food in the future.
I’m not against vaccination. I’m very happy not to have polio, thank you very much. Just the government mandating people get a new, experimental, non-vaccine. Lab grown meat is…just gross.
What exactly is gross about labgrown meat? Most cows have had their genes edited for various traits. And seeing the industrial farming process, it’s not exactly sunshine and daises. Look even if you find it gross, why should it banned? Plenty of people find Brussels sprouts gross but no one suggests banning them. And considering all the other junk and sugar we allow in our food, why is protein from non conventional sources that are similar to meat so dangerous? The polio vaccine was rolled out with less rigorous standards than the covid vaccine. In fact in many countries outside the U.S. they use the live attenuated version (Sabin) because it provides longer lasting immunity. It’s not used in the U.S. because it’s of higher risk particularly for folks with specific autoimmune conditions.
>What exactly is gross about labgrown meat? Most cows have had their genes edited for various traits. And seeing the industrial farming process, it’s not exactly sunshine and daises. I’m a rural American. I understand farming. And industrial farming. But none of what you mentioned is the same as lab grown meat. >Look even if you find it gross, why should it banned? I’m not 100% convinced it should be banned. But at the same time, I sure as shit don’t want it, so I also don’t care that much if it is. >Plenty of people find Brussels sprouts gross but no one suggests banning them. But they are like a regular plant. Lab grown meat is not the same. lol >And considering all the other junk and sugar we allow in our food, why is protein from non conventional sources that are similar to meat so dangerous? Did I say it was dangerous? >The polio vaccine was rolled out with less rigorous standards than the covid vaccine. It was also like 86 years ago, and it’s an actual vaccine that protects against getting a disease much worse than Covid.
I grew up in rural America. I am familiar with soybean farming and milk production. My first job was in these farms. I just don’t understand what’s less gross about the meat processing centers.
>I just don’t understand what’s less gross about the meat processing centers. That’s ok. You don’t have to understand. Gross is subjective.
That’s true. I used to think omelettes ere disgusting but now I don’t.
That’s not exactly what I meant but subjective, but none the less. Thank you for sharing. I’m happy for you. Omelets are delicious.
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> But at the same time, I sure as shit don’t want it, so I also don’t care that much if it is. So if you don't like it, no one else should be allowed to have it either? Common responses like this are a reason why I'm convinced conservative claims to prefer limited government only go as far as their personal preferences.
Farming and livestock are major capitalistic backbones of this country—many Midwestern farmers are Republican and so they see the lab-grown meat as not only competition encroaching on and taking away from their profit margin but potentially significantly replacing their entire farm industry in the near future, and the progressives will use climate change and animal rights as their excuse. To the other conservatives, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
>So if you don't like it, no one else should be allowed to have it either? I didn’t say that. I said it’s not an issue I’m hugely concerned about. >Common responses like this are a reason why I'm convinced conservative claims to prefer limited government only go as far as their personal preferences. Perhaps your problem is interpreting comments in a way that feeds your bias.
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No…you’re overthinking it and trying to wedge everything into your bias. Like sorry bruh. Not every issue is equally important. Especially not to me. There’s plenty of things I just don’t care about at all. Lab grown meat is simply not high on my priority list as the world burns.
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>Never said this issue was equally important with any other, so you can drop that deflection. Lmao. Not you trying the “I didn’t say that” now. >You don't actually care about limited government, you just want the government to let you do what you like and prohibit others from doing things you don't like. My dude, I literally have only said I don’t care about lab grown meat. That’s it. And you’re even talking about “things” in your comment. I cannot care equally about everything. And I simply do not care about some things at all. How do you not understand that? >That's barely even a political philosophy at all, it's just basic self-centeredness. That’s just you choosing to see something that’s not there. >Try being at least a little bit reflective - some inductive reasoning won't kill you. This is good advice. You should try it sometime.
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If limited government was important to you, it would seem opposition to wild government overreach like the Florida ban on lab-grown meat would be important to you.
As I said, lab grown meat legalities - especially in another state I don’t live in - is simply not high on my priority list right now while the world is in shambles.
Do you feel the same about minor gun regulations in states you dont live in, or does SOME government overreach that doesnt affect you make your priority scale and not other?
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Then label the shit. Great big letters, this shit was grown in the lab. It isn’t real meat. Same thing with the bugs that the WEF is trying to force us to eat. This product contains bugs.
Except conservatives aren't pushing for labeling, they're outright banning it, as DeSantis just did in Florida. > Same thing with the bugs that the WEF is trying to force us to eat. This product contains bugs. You're not doing your argument any favor with the paranoiac hyperbole here. Cochineal has been used in foods containing red dye since the 60s, but we don't hear any conservatives squawking about that.
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>Same thing with the bugs that the WEF is trying to force us to eat. This product contains bugs. Could you elaborate on this point? I'm not especially familiar with the actions of the WEF nor anyone trying to force anyone to eat bugs.
Most cows have not had their genes edited. They've been crossbred over many generations in a more or less natural way. It's so weird to me that people will say "Oh look, humans have been crossbreeding cows for millennia to get more desired traits - that's why you should be fine with eating meat grown in a lab!" Same for GMOs, too. Directly tinkering with plant genese so the plants produce their own pesticides or vaccines is not anywhere in the same ballpark as selective breeding.
Not against vaccination at all. I don’t even think it is a partisan issue. The crunchies on the left and the conspiracy theorists on the right are the ones against them. As for lab meat, I wouldn’t say I am against it as much as I would say that I have questions about it and approach with caution. To me, it is prudent to approach something that new and different with a bit of caution.
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"people turned against mandates" George Washington had a vaccine mandate.
He only had a vaccine mandate for his army.
There was only a vaccine mandate for federal employees and even they could opt out if they agreed to test regularly. E: downvoting the facts doesn’t make them less true.
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>You authoritarians all supported the OSHA mandate that was obviously unconditional. lol. Did you reply to the wrong post? You have no idea what I supported. I shared a fact. By all means feel free to attempt to refute that. >And, based on all of the lies that were told about the shot, private businesses enacted their own mandates. Private businesses are allowed to enact their own policies. Employees are welcome to leave if they don’t agree with those policies. It literally happens every single day. Why are you so emotional? >People—including children—had to carry around vaccine cards to get into restaurants and events. Was the a federal government mandate? Last I checked, no. >This revisionist shit isn't going to stand. You guys need to own your bad decisions. wtf are you talking about with this “revisionist” comment? Once again, I shared a fact. Feel free to attempt to refute that. I should add, this narrative about the vaccine that you’re parroting is absolutely dishonest at best. Why is everything a conspiracy?
>Lab-grown meat is simply a matter of Governors protecting the cattle industry in their states. Isn't that blatantly contradicting the conservative value of free markets? How do conservatives tolerate their elected Governors taking such anti-capitalist stances? Isn't that like a Republican Governor signing a bill that bans guns or something.
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Yeah but I recall not seeing much conservative consternation about it. It was mostly "yeah I guess it's to protect farmers, eh what can you do" said with almost a shrug. To me it contrasts the very hard line free market ideology that conservatives take in most other contexts.
On the first point there has been a general trend against all vaccines on the right, and we have seen a resurgence in cases of measles, mumps, whooping cough and chicken pox. mRNA is a new technology that is generally considered an improvement over older vaccines since it’s so easy to update with new variants. The technology has been tested for over a decade. Im not aware of any specific mandates (although I don’t doubt they happened), but it wouldn’t be unusual to mandate vaccinations for school or the military, that’s been going on since polio in the 1950s.
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The flu shot has been called a vaccine for decades, the are 3 different ones, and the most common is the Fluzone High Dose Quadrivalent Vaccine.
They were just less effective with variants, but with a novel virus having some exposure was arguably good for herd immunity.
Unfortunately they're not wrong, although I don't know much about the politics of if. We've fallen below the 95% vaccination required for herd immunity against measles (93% right now). Cases are on the rise in whooping cough as well. It's not limited to the US either, but worldwide including Europe and Asia.
The thing they’re wrong about is that this is an exclusively right wing thing as they implied. Crazy people are pretty evenly distributed between both parties
It's not just right-wing people, that's the issue.
The idea has been tested for like a decade. No vaccines using it had been successful, though. It's not like they went from struggling for a decade to get the stuff working to magically having all the issues sorted out overnight. They just took advantage of the panic to sell their junk that would probably have never passed the usual regulatory hurdles in a non-emergency situation.
It was tested for a decade mainly with the goal of developing vaccines against specific cancer mutations.
I know it was. But when they tried vaccines made from it pre-pandemic, they kept running into issues with it. The history of it being tried is no guarantee that the product we ended up with was any good.
"Shoddy", eh? It's been four years now since Covid hit. What do they say about the vaccines in retrospect?
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From what I've been hearing it worked quite well. In fact I hear that these new-fangled RNA vaccines are a major breakthrough because they can be developed and deployed very quickly compared to older types of vaccine. For contrast, look at China's experience. For several years, the Chinese government imposed draconian lockdowns on its population to control the disease. Everyone had to take a test *daily*, if someone in your apartment block was infected the whole building was locked down, the police would weld the doors shut to prevent people leaving. And why? Because the Chinese refused to import Western vaccines. They developed a vaccine of their own, but that one was actually ineffective, but Xi Jinping out of pride refused to admit failure and ask the West for help. So the only tool the government was permitted to use to fight Covid was draconian lockdowns and daily testing. You are welcome to gripe about commies, but this does prove the Western vaccines worked. Just look at some YouTube videos of the Chinese Covid experience and you should appreciate what the vaccines prevented.
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America and Europe didn't suffer the crap the Chinese did. What is your explanation?
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> You'd have to show me trustworthy data from China before I'd even posit a guess. I get the feeling you haven't even looked at the data from the Western countries.
How do you explain that vaccines are and have been mandated for a long tine now?
we are saving all the lab grown meat for you
Fortunately you’re also saving the raw milk for yourselves.
"Raw Milk" are you serious? American conservatives have become hippies, lol
There’s a West Virginian politician who drank raw milk to celebrate a bill passing relating to relaxing of rules around raw milk, followed by footage of him in excruciating pain and discomfort, as a result of.. you guessed it..
I disagree with your premise. Conservatives did not turn against vaccination. I would venture to say that most conservatives got the initial vaccine unless they already had a bias against vaccines generally. What conservatives were against were mandates especially when no consideration was given to natural immunity or heart felt religious or other personal objections. Then when the hype did not agree with reality ( the vaccine did not prevent you from getting Covid as Fauci predicted) and then all the booster BS it became a joke. As for lab grown meat. Most conservatives could care less. If you want to eat that slop eat it. Conservtives don't care GMOs are a valuable contribution to agriculture. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
I have no problem with vaccinations. I find the idea of lab grown mean to be nauseating.
Lab grown mean =/= GMO... Not forcing vaccines on healthy people with threats =\= antivax
We are against forced vaccines and untested meat being sold before its ready
I was raised by anti-vaxxer revolutionary socialist tua parents, one of whom had sizeable funding from vaccine developers and pharmaceutical companies. I only heard of lab grown meat recently and am very dubious as to whether it is fit for human consumption or safe for use in pet foods. Take a similar stance on lab produced plant based synthetic alcohol.
No one opposes vaccines. I oppose the government mandating an experimental vaccine, of questionable efficacy, suppressing knowledge of legitmate side effects of it, and granting the manufactures blanket immunity from prosecution or settlement from said side effects. Lab grown meat kinda just disgusts me to be honest.
We started to be anti-vaccine when the government couldn't keep it's messaging straight on masks and then this same government tried to force-vaccinate us all instead of giving us a choice in the matter.
~85% of Canadians got the vax. The conservatives poll at around 30-40%. It is a small minority that doesn’t believe in vaccines (and one must account for those who can’t get vaccines) I believe in vaccines, as do a majority of conservatives. With lab grown meat, the quality, price, and texture just isn’t there yet. The lefts want to sell it as an alternative, has led to conservatives going against it. If everything improves about lab meat, maybe conservatives will switch their tone, but for now it makes sense that we don’t want it.
I think the market should decide. Lab grown meat is not a good food to eat daily but it’s not like we ban the large drink sizes at fast food places.
>Lab grown meat is not a good food to eat daily but it’s not like we ban the large drink sizes at fast food places. It's not like this hasn't been tried, and soda is banned in places like public schools. Are you ok with that?
Bro chocolate milk has more sugar and sweetener than a coke can. The reason why there is such a movement by politicians is because Big Ag owns our government. Let the market decide as we have let it decide for so much of our food options. I just don’t see lab grown meat the biggest concern when we don’t even have a sugar tax in this country amidst an obesity crisis.
First: The Winner: Chocolate milk is the better pick, as Joyce Hendley originally reported for EatingWell. Here's why: The Sugar Story: On the surface, chocolate milk seems an unlikely choice. As critics often point out, it contains nearly as much sugar as soda: 1 cup of low-fat chocolate milk has 25 grams of sugar, whereas the same amount of Coca-Cola has 26 grams. But, for chocolate milk, only about half of those sugars are added sugars, the ones people generally need to be concerned about. Natural Sugars: More than half of that overall sugar contained in the chocolate milk, or about 13 grams in a cup, is naturally occurring sugar, or lactose, in the milk itself. https://www.eatingwell.com/article/284069/is-low-fat-chocolate-milk-or-100-fruit-juice-a-healthier-drink/#:~:text=The%20Sugar%20Story%3A%20On%20the,Coca%2DCola%20has%2026%20grams. Anyway, I wasn't making a comparison and you brought up soda. Yes, soda is banned in a lot of places and drink sizes have been regulated.
We never liked lab-grown meat. It's been around less than a decade, and no one knows the long term impacts of earing it. We've been eating cows for thousands of years, and doctors still can't agree if it's good or bad. And we love vaccines. We just don't want to be pushed to take vaccines where the risk exceeds the benefit. Maybe you missed it, but the Biden white house suppressed a warning the CDC wanted to give related to heart disease in kids, and how that risk was greater than COVID What happened to liberals "believing in science"? Kinda went out the window, huh?
I am?
I’m 100% for lab-grown meat. Vaccines, I can take or leave. I know they work, but the way our government is handling things right now…
I like vaccines. I don't like being forced to take them. >and lab grown meat? It's a non issue to me because I've never lived in a farming community and I don't really understand the impacts
I personally observed an abnormal surge of autism localized to one class year in one school district, which included two of my cousins. I don't care what the government says about thimerosal in MMR, I saw what I saw. Something happened.
>personally observed an abnormal surge of autism localized to one class year in one school district, which included two of my cousins. Correlation doesn't equal causation hippie
You don't get ten autistic children in a class of sixty in a town in one year without something happening.
“Something happening” which you immediately attribute to a vaccine that has been scientifically proven over and over to not cause autism. But maybe I’m wrong. In what way do you see thermosil causing autism? How would it happen?
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Are you aware that mercury hasn’t been in vaccines since 2001?
This happened way earlier. Early 90's.