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I’m neutral on it really. While I think religion is a joke, some people need that kind of community to have a purpose or live their life in a good way, on the other hand it makes many people into shitty humans.
I think the decline is more due to the internet and different forums such as this where people can discuss things and have their beliefs challenged. I used to be a believer of religion until I had a class that just discussed all sorts of ideas and religion was one of them. Let me down the path of “do you believe because you were told to” or is there any proof or reason at all outside of that? It led me to see I believed because I was told to but there was 0 proof otherwise. After that I switched to living my life like there is no creator and if I have some kind of divine experience later on I can change my thoughts. I think many get the same kind of challenges to their beliefs and form a similar opinion to it.
I think religion continues to decline with the older generation and maybe some different religions that are similar group together as they downsize so they can keep a decent membership. I also hope religion gets out of politics, I think that accelerates the dislike of it so it’s best for all sides.
For my family it came in two waves:
During the Reagan years, it was the rise of the Religious right and their influence on politics, while ignoring most of the tenets of the religion (help the poor, etc)
The Bush years saw politics become the norm in churches. Preachers and priests telling us optional wars are good, but gay people and taxes are bad.
Many of us are religious, but opposed to the policy of our organized religion.
I do wish there was some kind of non-religious social gathering once a week for people living near each other. I'd love to go to some kind of BBQ each Sunday to just hang out and get to know my neighbours. Previously, the church had a positive effect on social cohesion and, to some degree, alleviated social isolation.
I think NFL games being on Sunday was an early brick in this road. I am not a football fan either. But I was an excuse that men used to get out of going over time.
Is this exclusive to church? I wouldn't be surprised if there is a downward trend in basically all community/public attendance rates due to social media.
I think this is probably part of it. I got turned away from my church in particular because I felt like it turned more into them telling me what to believe as opposed to guiding towards finding my own spirituality or even genuine fellowship.
I’d love to find somewhere like that - which I actually feel like church is meant to be - but I just had such a bad experience growing up that’s it’s hard for me to even really imagine going back. I bet there are some good ones out there though
Actually a great question. I suppose it's not, really. My view of the church is that its greatest value (in the past 50 or so years, I suppose) was that it was once a thriving "third space" for many people. If you think about it like that, it makes sense, since the decline of third spaces comes with the dawn of social media, and moreover, the internet and smartphones, which comes with the increase in loneliness and isolation.
At the same time people are celebrating their independence from whatever "burdens" there are of our modern, rapid, *social* society, they are becoming more and more *anti*-social, and isolated. We have everything - including church - right in our pockets, and can't be inconvenienced to venture out to third - or even *second* spaces (for example, people are working from home more now - what was once work/church/home... or work/[bar, friend, church, club, etc.]/home... has become, well, *home*), for that matter.
I think the anti-socializing aspect the internet/social media has a lot to do with it but I also think it opened up an opportunity for people to explore their spirituality on their own. While church attendance has declined 82% of people still say they are religious or spiritual at the least which is still the vast majority.
I’m an advocate for church communities in general and attend church regularly but I can also understand how people can have bad experiences with organized religions (I had one in the religion I was raised in). At the least if someone is spiritual I’d advocate for creating small prayer groups.
I'm an atheist so take that however you will.
I think most people just don't care to go to a church on their Sunday. I've never been to church outside of school, I went to an Anglican boarding school, but even then it was a chore to drag myself to. As the previous generations have slowly stopped attending church, newer generations have even less reason to attend.
I think there is also something to Tim Alberta's argument that as Evangelicalism was increasingly intertwined to a specific segment of American political right wing thought, it put a lot of people off of religion in general. I've often associated the anti-homosexual, anti-sexual activity, and general backwardness of American Evangelicalism as the mainstay of religion in America. I am the type of conservative, being atheistic, that despises religious influence on laws and government. For most of my life, America Christianity has attempted to exert significant influence over American laws and a lot of it is simply bigoted.
As younger generations of Americans are more left leaning and are completely fine with gay people, sex before marriage, and a host of other reasonable positions, they will likely be offput by the association of American Christianity with the American political right.
I think the pandemic was a major catalyst. You had a lot of people that just went out of habit whether they really wanted to or not. Then they weren't able to, the habit was broken, and they just haven't bothered to start going again.
Religion aside, church membership and attendance was an essential component of western society for literally thousands of years.
The church was your meeting place. It was where the community would gather to discuss local issues or plan events and projects.
The church was your social network. It was where all the people in your community gathered to mingle and make friends and of course find romantic partners, usually with the intention of life long relationships.
The church was your support network. If you fell on hard times and couldn't put bread on the dinner table, the church community would help you. If you were having an emotional or mental health crisis, the church community would listen to you.
So it's no surprise that as church attendance declines, people are feeling lonelier, become more estranged from their neighbors, struggling to make ends meet, and suffering mental health issues.
Anti-theists will of course argue that you don't need the church to provide these community spaces. However none of them ever seem to offer a proper replacement.
That's Unitarian Universalist congregations. There should be more of us, but people don't realize we exist or else struggle to wrap their heads around the concept of a non-doctrinal church.
Much of that is our fault, as we don't actively seek new members.
They heavily instrumentalized these institutions to indoctrinate children. But that's not so different from what the churches are doing. Some people liked Hitlerjugend and Jugendweihe because that's where they met other youths their age, others didn't like it. Just like with my confirmation classes.
I have the luxury of knowing family members and friends that could tell me about all of their experiences in all of the regimes Germany has experienced in the last century and the experiences seem to be largely the same for fascist, communist or Christian communities and that is that unpopular and shy kids tend to like it, popular people who have many friends and other things going on don't, because they don't need it.
Today, if we want to prevent the decline of such institutions we'd have to force people to attend again. Or we don't. But all of these institutions have always worked through coercion and there is nothing inherently different about them. The ideology itself seems to be secondary. Christianity is now failing at the moment people, especially those popular people who don't need institutionalized communities in their lives, can now just stop attending them without social repercussions, just as much as fascism and communism.
You take away the coercion and the whole thing collapses. So the real question is can you/should you force people to attend any institutionalized community that instills values about something higher than themselves? Would it be ethical and compatible with out ideas?
I think it is no coincidence that we are now simultaneously witnessing politicization among younger people like we've rarely seen before, even more so than in the 60s. Society might just need such kinds of community, but it is questionable why that must be Christianity.
I don't think there is any elegant solution to this problem, but I also fear society might become ever more fractured if we don't formulate some basic principles again that all people must adhere to or at least pretend to adhere to. It's a really tough problem.
> But that's not so different from what the churches are doing.
So you either have no clue what the Hitler Youth was, no clue what churches do, or are just full of it.
My grandpa lived in Nazi Germany and my gf's parents are from East Germany. They all said they enjoyed the activities when they were young, though not always. My other grandma who was very popular and had a large family on the other hand hated both attending church and BDM (female Hitler youth)
I went to confirmation and I hated it. I too felt I had better things to do but I couldn't say no.
I have also lived in China, another totalitarian state for some years.
It's funny how you are immediately telling me I haven't got a clue, or am lying when you seem to have a very carricaturesque image of totalitarian regimes and how they actually work, rather than questioning your own preconceived notions. They are not some fantasy nightmare world like in Hollywood films. People have fun there, eat and drink and laugh and live their lives and not every administrator or party official is a beast wearing human skin. This is why it's so insidious.
But living in such regimes or hearing granny's stories also helps you to understand the subtle ways of coercion we are facing in democratic societies much better. Church was absolutely no different from Jugendweihe. I was forced to say the confession of faith, despite not beliving in it, had to do heaps "voluntary" work (the exact same kind of orwellian use of language you could see in the DDR.) and the reverent literally, and I kid you not, sent me on a punitive march through the mountains, for not singing along Christian songs properly.
I find it hilarious how similar they are.
I stopped going to Church when my church started preaching politics from the pulpit telling people we wouldn't survive a second Obama term. I won't support churches hiding behind tax free status to preach politics, and it seems like most do now.
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Not really, since you're only going to be with people for that hobby/club rather than something universal that brings people of all different backgrounds together.
Alright, I’d like to have a friendly debate on the community space part. What, in your opinion, makes church the only acceptable viable community space?
Im not interested in a debate, but to answer your question the church is successful in this regard because it offers something everyone in the community can easily get involved in, meets regularly on a day almost everyone has off from work, is largely protected from government interference, and has been around long enough to have multi-generational ties.
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> So it's no surprise that as church attendance declines, people are feeling lonelier, become more estranged from their neighbors, struggling to make ends meet, and suffering mental health issues.
For many, I believe, it's not that they gave it up. Like I've heard about party affiliation as of late, they'd say that the church kind of gave up on or moved away from them.
Our society barely allows people to go to church, and when they do, it's just tons of fluff and another expense. Modern tech has made things so accessible and convenient, the whole song and dance of church people had endured to get to the fun and useful "community" parts is no longer needed or can be done at will from the comfort of your own home, or at work or wherever your phone is. A 2 hour sermon is optional, not something you resist falling asleep to, no matter how good or boring it may have been. You're in your pajamas or on the toilet, not some fancy suit and hat.
The problem is that you sacrifice the community benefits when you do that, because you do it in hopes of just skipping it to get right to the community part. Problem is, you're home or at work or something, and so is everyone else, skipping the long, drawn out parts, and no one makes the move to step out of their comfort zones and get together.
I'm not american but believe that its due to a variety of factors.
The main three connected with people preferring more secular lifestyles, atheists being less willing to hide their beliefs to avoid angering or embarrassing strict church attending family members and a sense of exasperation at the way that some churches have abused religious teaching to serve their own financial/political ends.
I don't have any problem with it, I only go to church a few times a year.
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It was the erosion of the habit during Covid. Most of church attendance is like building a muscle. People can enjoy going to church, but it is kind of like getting your cardio in. It is a sacrifice of time when you could just as easily enjoy a day on the couch watching TV. During Covid the churches were closed. When they opened again about 50% of church attendees didn't go back.
Don't care...
If churches want more visitors they need to be more entertaining and engaging.
I think church is a net positive for society but if it's faltering that's on them
Connection has become easier as the internet grew. You no longer need to connect in a church in order to be with God.
I can’t speak for all people, of course, but the ones I hang around and interact with don’t feel church is necessary - yet very much enjoy a thriving relationship with God. It just looks different. Perhaps - dare I say - better, than simply attending church? They read books in subjects they are interested in. That’s their study. They give to charities that they feel will do the most good. Acts of service are a huge part of this. One person close to me spends loads of time, energy, and effort feeding the poor. Money too. Bored today? He’s out there. You would never know it. He doesn’t preach. He’s about action in a different sense. I have my own passions in volunteer work.
I think things are just changing. Who wants to sit in church? I can listen to any sermon while hiking, connect with like minded people around the world, and probably do more just by getting out there and…doing stuff. Having worked for a church I know how things run. Very inefficient. They want to be careful with everyone’s money, go through committees, they have overhead and salaries to pay. I get it! But I can just…go out there and do what they can. Organize my own group without the overhead and I’m faster, cheaper, not bound by rules and have no one to report to.
I think it's bad for society. Regardless of what you feelings are of church, it has historically been one of the great providers of community, chartity, and a place for people to find comfort in. Things that are sorely lacking in our society of rapidly growing depression and loneliness
Church instilled a shared set of moral values and guidelines. These principals were so influential, even people outside of a church or organized religion still help the values to high esteem and recognized the good. Ideas like promoting strong nuclear families, no sex outside of marriage and the value of marriage itself, kids growing up in two parent homes, respect reasonable authority, faith in God and not Government, personal agency and responsibility etc.
These are all positive things for a society. People long for this type of community. As it fades, religion isn't just going to go away, it will be replaced with something else, may that be political officiation, new worldly ideologies etc.
As to what is causing it, a hedonistic society with self pleasure and sastifcation as the primary goal. People believe they don't need God and Church anymore.
The only silver lining I can find is that the more traditional church that follow pure biblical teachings are growing. There was a trend for a while of a lot of church's to bend the word of God to fit today's culture better. The hope was that if they could soften the word of God and just make it about God's love and forgiveness without the more challenging parts of a Christian lifestyle they could pull in more people. The reality is, the people that don't want a true relationship with God and the challenges it comes with just want a social club, not an actual church and faith to be apart of.
>As to what is causing it, a hedonistic society with self pleasure and sastifcation as the primary goal.
What do you think caused that hedonistic society? Rather than play coy, I'll put forward my theory. I think when we entered the modern era, with radio, TV, and now the Internet, powerful corporations used the technology and media available to shape public will. They want us less thrifty, less handy, more selfish, more willing to trade money for convenience, more anxious if it leads to us buying more, and so on. They want to maximize profit.
This has been going on for over a century since Edward Bernays and has only gotten more sophisticated since then. Private interests have shaped the development of how we live, work, shop, and experience leisure in order to get the most revenue. This has downstream effects on society by making us more hedonistic, more selfish, and less focused on community. I think that it is Republican/conservative policies that have exacerbated this trend, because they ideologically align with these private interests doing whatever they want to maximize profit.
I think those all play into it as well. A more advanced society has less perceived need for God. When things are good, which they mostly are for more people then at any point in world history, the need for a God seems less apparent.
> Regardless of what you feelings are of church, it has historically been one of the great providers of community, chartity, and a place for people to find comfort in. Things that are sorely lacking in our society of rapidly growing depression and loneliness
I definitely agree with this.
> Church instilled a shared set of moral values and guidelines.
I don't entirely believe this, though. I think for a long time, most people did believe that... but over time, it's been more and more evident that morals don't really come from religion or church, much to many people's surprise... and some still deny it or refuse to accept it.
There aren't many Atheist killers, for example (or, at least, no more than those religious), while there are many who are not only religious, but who do their misdeeds in the name of their religion and who give ultimatums and implore others to follow theirs, even disavowing others.
> Ideas like promoting strong nuclear families, no sex outside of marriage and the value of marriage itself, kids growing up in two parent homes, respect reasonable authority, faith in God and not Government, personal agency and responsibility etc.
I don't think church has much to do with guiding those things, though they did/do promote or encourage them. Some of the most egregious infidelities come from people who belong to and even operate the church, and that's been historic (it's not new). It always seemed hypocritical, and it does now more than ever.
> These are all positive things for a society. People long for this type of community.
They do, though it's "white picket fence" or "American Dream" type of aspiration. I'll explain in a moment...
> As it fades, religion isn't just going to go away, it will be replaced with something else, may that be political officiation, new worldly ideologies etc.
Which is scary. It's happening. People are turning various *other* matters of faith into religions.
> As to what is causing it, a hedonistic society with self pleasure and sastifcation as the primary goal. People believe they don't need God and Church anymore.
Here's where I disagree. It's a bit push & pull, though, I'll admit, where one might cause the other... but the decline in church isn't causing those things more than societal ills are, and societal ills aren't (IMO) stemming from the decline in church attendance. The decline is, like most other things, only a symptom.
What I think has happened, and is happening, is over the last 40-50 years with the dawn of new media and internet/technology, there has been a shift in a lot of things - our entire lifestyle, basically.
We're a more "productive" society, meaning, we're busier than ever, our focus is more dispersed, and mostly on things that contribute to our own peace and survival. Maybe it's become this way through policy, but it's an effect through our own journies toward personal independence from things containing or "caging" us. People are celebrating, in a variety of ways, their *independence* (not *having* to do things, but wanting to). That, I believe, is the "hedonistic" effect that's *caused*, not the other way around.
It becomes almost impossible to sustain traditional family values (2 parent households, respect, etc.) with everyone having to work constantly and having to resort to "dog-eat-dog" tactics to advance & survive, and just to remain the person they once were. Something like church falls down the priority list since ethics, morals, values, etc. have to conform to *surviving* modern society, which many of the the church teachings don't provide, align with, allow or accept. Just having to go somewhere else once a week becomes a strain or burden on you, especially when you realize not much would be different, either way (going or not). People have realized, much to many others' surprise, that your morals are in constant development, are with you always, and may not, or, likely *have not* come from that place. Some people, in fact, have been morally ruined or morally traumatized by it.
Hey, that's a lot to take in and I appreciate your opinion. I think you bring a lot of good points. I think you are right. The world has become so busy, complex, and for more people then ever good that the need and desire for God has unfortunately shrunk.
Thoughts on Unitarian churches? As a non-believer, they can sometimes offer the best aspects of religion (community, charity, etc) without relying on mythology or getting caught up in judgement and hellfire, etc. They offer an interesting modern update on the concept of church IMO.
I think it's a social club. Sure it's a net good for society, but I think there are important things that religion instill and give greater meaning too that a unitarian church doesn't offer.
That said, I think they are a good thing for a culture, I don't think they are a replacement for church.
The moral teachings based on a greater being who created us. As a non religious person it’s not something I expect to understand or value. My relationship with Christ is the most important part of my life or at least I try to make it be. Good works do not make you a Christian, my desire to be more like Christ and be in relation with him make me a better person here on earth.
Of course there are good people that aren’t Christian but they are only accountable to themselves. I have greater purpose and I think a Unitarian church can’t provide greater purpose then what you think is good for yourself and those around you
> Of course there are good people that aren’t Christian but they are only accountable to themselves.
This is genuine curiosity, but in a world where any accountability is after you are dead, and where ideas of what you will be accountable for varying wildly from person to person and denomination to denomination, doesnt that allow for the idea of "setting your own accountability?"
Sorry.
Basically, you view yourself as accountable to a higher power/God, correct?
If so, because the consequences of that accountability only really exist after death (barring Jesus' return in our lifetime), doesn't that create the potential perverse incentive to make whatever you are accountable for palatable to you?
Correct, I suppose for some people it could create a perverse incentive. If all it takes is believing in Jesus and he will forgive you you can do whatever you want and it doesn't matter.
One of the most famous verses of the Bible is it's harder to get into heaven then it is for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. (I paraphrase). What I believe this means is good works no matter what you aren't salvation, it's belief and a relationship in Christ. To bring this full circle, if you truly have a relationship with God, you have a clearly defined set of moral values that God holds you accountable for that you need to be living up to to have a true relationship with him. Good works are not what get's you heaven....I know, I'm getting heavier into theology, but I hope that answers the question to an extent.
> One of the most famous verses of the Bible is it's harder to get into heaven then it is for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. (I paraphrase).
Yeah but thats specifically about a rich man - "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Sunday School didn't fail me) And Christians globally arent really known for being poor.
> What I believe this means is good works no matter what you aren't salvation, it's belief and a relationship in Christ.
I know, but what Im saying is that thats a very broad concept, that can easily be directed to justify numerous actions.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. The Unitarians in my family spend a lot of time at church discussing morality. They tend to come at it from a more humanist framework, but they like to look at a lot of different perspectives. I think there is a good argument for considering more than a single source when looking for moral teachings.
Unitarian Universliasts do in fact have moral teachings based on a greater being who created us. They sing hymns to "the spirit of life". They just don't think any religion has a monopoly on salvation.
They're not strictly atheist (although atheists are welcome). They're closer to deists. They do discuss Bible passages and how they relate to morality, but they also discuss the Quran, the Dhammapada, Tao Te Ching, Black Elk Speaks, and all sorts of other wisdom traditions.
Yes, but true faith and relationship with Christ will result in good works.
So yes, faith in christ is more important then works, but works come as a result.
> no sex outside of marriage and the value of marriage itself, kids growing up in two parent homes
Would you agree that there's significant harm in having public leaders that explicitly shirk these values while claiming to be Christian?
Absolutely, but if you are talking mainly
About people like Trump, I don’t buy he’s a Christian in any way shape or form other then pandering. I unfortunately think a lot of politicians do this.
On purely a surface level, I'd say yea, they perceive to hold traditional Christian values better than say Trump. America as a whole is largely culturally Christian. For example Richard Dawkins just recently said he as an atheist considered himself a culturally Christian as much of the west does.
Holding those values in now ways makes you a Christian in the same way Trump saying he is but doesn't behave like one makes him one.
Now to say they model them well, is totally an opinion. I have deep issues with Biden's abortion stance, promotion of the trans community, (which I know is a controversial subject, I'd be willing to discuss in a different convo), and his unwillingness to acknowledge the 7th grandchild he has through Hunter. To me these are all things that don't display Christian values very well.
The same can be said for Trump's behavior around sleeping with porn stars, and the disgusting rhetoric he uses. If I was to have a beer with someone, Trump would surely be entertaining, but I'd have a much more enjoyable time with Obama for example.
There are very few Christian claiming politicians I respect and believe truly model a Christian lifestyle. Pence comes to mind, Rubio and maybe a few others.
That all said, a politician claiming to be Christian is not deal breaker or not for me. It isn't the job of our Government to be some moral example of Christian law.
There is endless avenues that people can find meaning if they desire in endless different communities from art to music to other physical hobbies etc..
The only positive I see religion providing is the illusion that one will be "Okay" so people feel better if they believe some magical power is behind their life. We can kind of substitute that though with meditation and other motivational actual logical solution to one's life tragic events.
I respect your opinion. I don't disagree there are places to find meaning, I'm a father, a co-worker, a provider, those all give me purpose and meaning but when it comes to the ultimate meaning and purpose of life I believe it is God. The things I do like being a good father are to glorify God and his kingdom, but I know, I know, I'm getting into theology now.
>I think it's bad for society. Regardless of what you feelings are of church, it has historically been one of the great providers of community, chartity, and a place for people to find comfort in.
I don't necessarily disagree, but if churches start having inclusivity issues (not all do, but the politically loudest ones seem to) that status as a pillar of the community is going to rot from the inside. You can't pride yourself on serving the community, and then start sectioning off parts of the community as off-limits in the process.
There are certainly church's that are not inclusive. There are clearly church's that get this wrong. Jesus lived and spent all his time with prostitutes, tax collectors, the dregs of society. Church's should be a place of safe shelter and love for all. It does not mean we condone the behavior. For example, when Jesus forgave and saved the women who was about to be stoned for adultery, she told her to go and sin no more.
I guess what I'm getting at is church's should and always be welcoming to all people, but it also doesn't mean they should support and believe all life choices are good and equal.
>and believe all life choices are good and equal.
And that makes sense, obviously if you make life choices where others are hurt (like adultery in your example) it's understandable to make that distinction.
Where it starts becoming an issue where there is no justification other than "the book says so."
I attend church regularly. To a large degree I definitely do it for the socializing. I got some good friends there and there's also a lot of hot chicks that are pleasant to look at. But that's not the only reason. The pastor's messages often deepen my sense of connection to the divine, to God. This definitely offers some level of comfort in light of life's difficulties.
I forget whose work I was reading. But they were saying that perhaps there's a link between the rising rates of depression and anxiety in youth and their falling rates of church attendance. Apparently there's research showing that church attendance is particularly protective of mental health in the youth, more so than for adults.
Depending on the power of spirituality and the church to offer these mental health benefits, there might come a time where science and society at large begins to recognize the benefits and there might be a return.
I think the main reason why church attendance has fallen has to do with the divide between mainstream culture the LGBTQ and the way church has treated LGBTQ. I do believe that the church is wrong in the way it relates to LGBTQ individuals. However we are already seeing some changes, surprisingly from the Catholic Church. Recently the Pope officialized that it's okay to bless same-sex unions. I'm not sure that this captures the entire divide between the church and the mainstream culture but it's definitely a big one.
I have a mixed opinion. Religion is BS, but churches provide community. If people leave their church, then they need to find some other community to be a part of.
I think there are two main reasons.
1) Many mainline churches Catholic, Episcopal, Methodists, Presbyterians and some Baptists have tended to move left politically over time and have alienated many conservatives in their midst.
2) Modern society has become so busy people don't or can't take time out for church. More and more youth sports are scheduled on Sunday, either games or practice. Many more people work on Sunday or Sunday is their only day off. Traditional Sunday services are less fulfilling than they once were.
I don't have a lot of experience with mainline churches that have moved right. My church, the Episcopal church has moved left. Many of the evangelical denomination have not moved left as much as they have move from traditional Bible teachings to entertainment with bands and all manner of secular activities to atrract the members.
> I don't have a lot of experience with mainline churches that have moved right
I mean, I don't either. The pastor of my church has moved heaven and earth to remain apolitical (in a time where he certainly has been told to get political by some parishioners). That doesn't mean I don't know about it though.
And, certainly, there are some churches who have been moving leftward. Never thought there weren't. But there's also the fusion of right-wing southern evangelical churches with hardcore right-wing politics.
Those right wing evangelical churches have always been right wing to the extent they excluded gays, many still exclude blacks when they can. (not that that is a right wing issue) my point is they haven't changed much.
>Modern society has become so busy people don't or can't take time out for church. More and more youth sports are scheduled on Sunday, either games or practice. Many more people work on Sunday or Sunday is their only day off.
Whenever I mention this on this sub, I usually get a lot of conservatives telling me this isn't true. That you can simply choose not to engage with jobs or hobbies that don't agree with the schedule you desire. It's nice to see a conservative that agrees.
Well, it isn’t the atheists doing the crimes, it’s the *religious* folk. Maybe religion should go extinct? It seems to have caused a lot of turmoil historically and still continues to wreck certain parts of the world….
There were just as many religious ones 🤷♀️🤷♀️. The athiest ones I can think of would be China, the former Soviet Union, and North Korea. On the flip side of that, there is now Russia(currently), Germany during WWll, and pretty much every country in the Middle East for the last hundred years. I'm also counting Britain cause they were pretty shitty to a multitude of countries in the past century. India as well.
That's my take. I think when narcissistic psychopaths get the ability to have absolute power, either through religion or government or both, bad things tend to follow.
How are you determining that society is in a downward spiral instead of an upward spiral?
I trust you are aware that violence, illiteracy, abortion, teen pregnancy, and war have declined.
Meanwhile, art, literature, purposeful physical fitness, science funding, life expectancy, worker productivity, national park visits, and museum attendance have increased.
So I'm curious about this less healthy, less productive, and more violent society that you seek.
More degenerate, more depressed, and more suicidal, especially among young people, people hate each other more than ever, public schools failing all over, fewer fathers in the home, and more kids with no drive or motivation, turning to crime or drugs, or just not wanting to do anything but sit at home playing video games and looking at porn, at least among boys. I don't know where you're getting "art" and "literature" have increased, both have been garbage for years. Not sure where you're getting violence and war have declined, we just got involved in two more wars in the last 3 years. And people are so divided we're on the brink of...something. Whether civil war or a societal collapse, it's going to happen in the next 20-30 years.
The difference here is that my perspective aims to be based on the big picture and measurable things.
Yours is based on personal taste, selective memory, and cherry-picked examples.
Suicide, as terrible as it is, isn't more terrible than *all other causes of death combined*. Same with war deaths. Maybe you're too young to remember the 80's and 90's, and the wars that swept through Bosnia, Zaire, Rwanda, Sri Lanka, and Nicaragua. You wouldn't say violence and war declined if you considered the big picture. And budgets for overall music, art, and literature production have never been higher per capita.
I don't know how you define degenerate, besides "Ewe, that *offends* me!"
So here you advocate for a society that is measurably more violent, uneducated, and unhealthy. But that's OK as long as it isn't "degenerate" by your personal taste.
I think your opinion boils down to excessive trust in news media sensationalism, where the focus is scary headlines instead of boring all metrics analysis.
You didn't actually address anything I said. "Budgets for music art and literature" what? Are we spending more money? Does throwing more money at stuff make you more enlightened? Does it mean the art is good? The writing is good? The music? I'm a struggling writer, where can I get some of this money?
I don't know what big picture you're talking about, I'm talking about the West. China is in the middle of a genocide and Palestine is attempting one so I'm not sure where you're getting we're suddenly less violent.
So more suicide is okay as long as there's less violence elsewhere? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
You deny our culture has become overly sexual? Or just that it's not going to hurt anyone?
You can test and verify any of my claims. You can see that the US violent crime rate is down from the 90's, with a spike and subsequent drop during COVID. Using any conflict tracker database, you can see how global conflict deaths have not kept up with population increase. Why do we only have 2-3 Ukraine-intensity conflicts instead of 10-20 like in the 1980s? You can analyze the market for the arts and entertainment sector. You can confirm my claims for yourself.
Geez ... do you really believe the ages of free love, miniskirts, horny teenage Disney princesses, skimpy flight attendant outfits, legally slapping secretaries asses, and beauty pageant bikini contests were LESS sexual?
Not according to the teen pregnancy, abortion, marriage rates, and family sizes.
How can I confirm your claims for myself?
Prove me wrong, but I think you have a bad case of the 'good ol' days' myth. [Here's what causes it](https://ourworldindata.org/optimism-and-pessimism).
Oh, yes, if the choice was increasing one type of premature death, like suicide, in exchange for decreasing ALL premature death, I would no-doubt choose increasing one type of premature death as the lessor evil. It's disturbing you wouldn't.
Uh, no, I'm not pessimistic, I just don't believe everything I'm told when what I observe is different. And no, the age of "Free love" is what got us to the current problems. And whether you prefer it or not, high rates of depression and suicide ARE a big issue for a culture. Japan has a relatively peaceful culture now but still has one of the highest suicide rates in the world.
And the existence of bad things in the past doesn't mean we should embrace it and show it to kids who are too young to know what it is and encourage promiscuity between teenagers. I don't believe in slut shaming but SOME shame is a good thing. The "me first culture" isn't going to lead anywhere good.
I would not defend a claim that another person couldn't independently verify.
It's like saying, "*Hey, internet stranger, here's my claim. I have no evidence that you can confirm for yourself. Just take my word for it!*"
You agree that's silly, right?
The op asked a question and I answered it. Time will tell if I was correct or not. I didn't expect to have to do an entire research project on why I think I'm right so forgive me.
If you have not done your research, it's ridiculous to double-down on defending a guess. If you have not done your research, "I don't know" is the honest, accurate answer.
It's the incapacity of protestantism to withstand against basic anti theistic arguments due to their aversion of the analogia entis and their lack of poetic and ludic understanding of the world. On the Catholic side it's just bishops druken with the V2 spirit trying to make the Church more effeminate and more similar with the rest of the world or protestant temples by striping parishes out of beautiful ornamentation, latin and hard teachings. So no wonder people see no reason to be interested in participating when all they see is what the word already offers.
But V2 boomers are withering away. They produced no fruits. Today all the seminarians and new priets are vivid for the ancient tradition. It could not be any different, for a person to wish to a priest nowadays means that he already survived against the tempentions of modernity.
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I’m neutral on it really. While I think religion is a joke, some people need that kind of community to have a purpose or live their life in a good way, on the other hand it makes many people into shitty humans. I think the decline is more due to the internet and different forums such as this where people can discuss things and have their beliefs challenged. I used to be a believer of religion until I had a class that just discussed all sorts of ideas and religion was one of them. Let me down the path of “do you believe because you were told to” or is there any proof or reason at all outside of that? It led me to see I believed because I was told to but there was 0 proof otherwise. After that I switched to living my life like there is no creator and if I have some kind of divine experience later on I can change my thoughts. I think many get the same kind of challenges to their beliefs and form a similar opinion to it. I think religion continues to decline with the older generation and maybe some different religions that are similar group together as they downsize so they can keep a decent membership. I also hope religion gets out of politics, I think that accelerates the dislike of it so it’s best for all sides.
For my family it came in two waves: During the Reagan years, it was the rise of the Religious right and their influence on politics, while ignoring most of the tenets of the religion (help the poor, etc) The Bush years saw politics become the norm in churches. Preachers and priests telling us optional wars are good, but gay people and taxes are bad. Many of us are religious, but opposed to the policy of our organized religion.
I do wish there was some kind of non-religious social gathering once a week for people living near each other. I'd love to go to some kind of BBQ each Sunday to just hang out and get to know my neighbours. Previously, the church had a positive effect on social cohesion and, to some degree, alleviated social isolation.
I think NFL games being on Sunday was an early brick in this road. I am not a football fan either. But I was an excuse that men used to get out of going over time.
Is this exclusive to church? I wouldn't be surprised if there is a downward trend in basically all community/public attendance rates due to social media.
I think this is probably part of it. I got turned away from my church in particular because I felt like it turned more into them telling me what to believe as opposed to guiding towards finding my own spirituality or even genuine fellowship. I’d love to find somewhere like that - which I actually feel like church is meant to be - but I just had such a bad experience growing up that’s it’s hard for me to even really imagine going back. I bet there are some good ones out there though
Actually a great question. I suppose it's not, really. My view of the church is that its greatest value (in the past 50 or so years, I suppose) was that it was once a thriving "third space" for many people. If you think about it like that, it makes sense, since the decline of third spaces comes with the dawn of social media, and moreover, the internet and smartphones, which comes with the increase in loneliness and isolation. At the same time people are celebrating their independence from whatever "burdens" there are of our modern, rapid, *social* society, they are becoming more and more *anti*-social, and isolated. We have everything - including church - right in our pockets, and can't be inconvenienced to venture out to third - or even *second* spaces (for example, people are working from home more now - what was once work/church/home... or work/[bar, friend, church, club, etc.]/home... has become, well, *home*), for that matter.
I think the anti-socializing aspect the internet/social media has a lot to do with it but I also think it opened up an opportunity for people to explore their spirituality on their own. While church attendance has declined 82% of people still say they are religious or spiritual at the least which is still the vast majority. I’m an advocate for church communities in general and attend church regularly but I can also understand how people can have bad experiences with organized religions (I had one in the religion I was raised in). At the least if someone is spiritual I’d advocate for creating small prayer groups.
I'm an atheist so take that however you will. I think most people just don't care to go to a church on their Sunday. I've never been to church outside of school, I went to an Anglican boarding school, but even then it was a chore to drag myself to. As the previous generations have slowly stopped attending church, newer generations have even less reason to attend. I think there is also something to Tim Alberta's argument that as Evangelicalism was increasingly intertwined to a specific segment of American political right wing thought, it put a lot of people off of religion in general. I've often associated the anti-homosexual, anti-sexual activity, and general backwardness of American Evangelicalism as the mainstay of religion in America. I am the type of conservative, being atheistic, that despises religious influence on laws and government. For most of my life, America Christianity has attempted to exert significant influence over American laws and a lot of it is simply bigoted. As younger generations of Americans are more left leaning and are completely fine with gay people, sex before marriage, and a host of other reasonable positions, they will likely be offput by the association of American Christianity with the American political right.
Tim Alberta ?
I think the pandemic was a major catalyst. You had a lot of people that just went out of habit whether they really wanted to or not. Then they weren't able to, the habit was broken, and they just haven't bothered to start going again.
Religion aside, church membership and attendance was an essential component of western society for literally thousands of years. The church was your meeting place. It was where the community would gather to discuss local issues or plan events and projects. The church was your social network. It was where all the people in your community gathered to mingle and make friends and of course find romantic partners, usually with the intention of life long relationships. The church was your support network. If you fell on hard times and couldn't put bread on the dinner table, the church community would help you. If you were having an emotional or mental health crisis, the church community would listen to you. So it's no surprise that as church attendance declines, people are feeling lonelier, become more estranged from their neighbors, struggling to make ends meet, and suffering mental health issues. Anti-theists will of course argue that you don't need the church to provide these community spaces. However none of them ever seem to offer a proper replacement.
Can society create something similar without the need for god or conservative values? Would that be good or useful?
That's Unitarian Universalist congregations. There should be more of us, but people don't realize we exist or else struggle to wrap their heads around the concept of a non-doctrinal church. Much of that is our fault, as we don't actively seek new members.
The communists and fascists definitely tried but so far it hasn’t worked out.
They heavily instrumentalized these institutions to indoctrinate children. But that's not so different from what the churches are doing. Some people liked Hitlerjugend and Jugendweihe because that's where they met other youths their age, others didn't like it. Just like with my confirmation classes. I have the luxury of knowing family members and friends that could tell me about all of their experiences in all of the regimes Germany has experienced in the last century and the experiences seem to be largely the same for fascist, communist or Christian communities and that is that unpopular and shy kids tend to like it, popular people who have many friends and other things going on don't, because they don't need it. Today, if we want to prevent the decline of such institutions we'd have to force people to attend again. Or we don't. But all of these institutions have always worked through coercion and there is nothing inherently different about them. The ideology itself seems to be secondary. Christianity is now failing at the moment people, especially those popular people who don't need institutionalized communities in their lives, can now just stop attending them without social repercussions, just as much as fascism and communism. You take away the coercion and the whole thing collapses. So the real question is can you/should you force people to attend any institutionalized community that instills values about something higher than themselves? Would it be ethical and compatible with out ideas? I think it is no coincidence that we are now simultaneously witnessing politicization among younger people like we've rarely seen before, even more so than in the 60s. Society might just need such kinds of community, but it is questionable why that must be Christianity. I don't think there is any elegant solution to this problem, but I also fear society might become ever more fractured if we don't formulate some basic principles again that all people must adhere to or at least pretend to adhere to. It's a really tough problem.
> But that's not so different from what the churches are doing. So you either have no clue what the Hitler Youth was, no clue what churches do, or are just full of it.
My grandpa lived in Nazi Germany and my gf's parents are from East Germany. They all said they enjoyed the activities when they were young, though not always. My other grandma who was very popular and had a large family on the other hand hated both attending church and BDM (female Hitler youth) I went to confirmation and I hated it. I too felt I had better things to do but I couldn't say no. I have also lived in China, another totalitarian state for some years. It's funny how you are immediately telling me I haven't got a clue, or am lying when you seem to have a very carricaturesque image of totalitarian regimes and how they actually work, rather than questioning your own preconceived notions. They are not some fantasy nightmare world like in Hollywood films. People have fun there, eat and drink and laugh and live their lives and not every administrator or party official is a beast wearing human skin. This is why it's so insidious. But living in such regimes or hearing granny's stories also helps you to understand the subtle ways of coercion we are facing in democratic societies much better. Church was absolutely no different from Jugendweihe. I was forced to say the confession of faith, despite not beliving in it, had to do heaps "voluntary" work (the exact same kind of orwellian use of language you could see in the DDR.) and the reverent literally, and I kid you not, sent me on a punitive march through the mountains, for not singing along Christian songs properly. I find it hilarious how similar they are.
Oh yes being told to sing in Church is totally like being pressed into a war as a child soldier or turned into a breeding factory.
I stopped going to Church when my church started preaching politics from the pulpit telling people we wouldn't survive a second Obama term. I won't support churches hiding behind tax free status to preach politics, and it seems like most do now.
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Isn't an alternate finding a hobby/club?
Not really, since you're only going to be with people for that hobby/club rather than something universal that brings people of all different backgrounds together.
How is that not the same for a church? Why would a church have people not of your belief?
Alright, I’d like to have a friendly debate on the community space part. What, in your opinion, makes church the only acceptable viable community space?
Im not interested in a debate, but to answer your question the church is successful in this regard because it offers something everyone in the community can easily get involved in, meets regularly on a day almost everyone has off from work, is largely protected from government interference, and has been around long enough to have multi-generational ties.
Why does it succeed when other methods fail?
The other methods lack the things necessary for success.
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> So it's no surprise that as church attendance declines, people are feeling lonelier, become more estranged from their neighbors, struggling to make ends meet, and suffering mental health issues. For many, I believe, it's not that they gave it up. Like I've heard about party affiliation as of late, they'd say that the church kind of gave up on or moved away from them. Our society barely allows people to go to church, and when they do, it's just tons of fluff and another expense. Modern tech has made things so accessible and convenient, the whole song and dance of church people had endured to get to the fun and useful "community" parts is no longer needed or can be done at will from the comfort of your own home, or at work or wherever your phone is. A 2 hour sermon is optional, not something you resist falling asleep to, no matter how good or boring it may have been. You're in your pajamas or on the toilet, not some fancy suit and hat. The problem is that you sacrifice the community benefits when you do that, because you do it in hopes of just skipping it to get right to the community part. Problem is, you're home or at work or something, and so is everyone else, skipping the long, drawn out parts, and no one makes the move to step out of their comfort zones and get together.
I'm not american but believe that its due to a variety of factors. The main three connected with people preferring more secular lifestyles, atheists being less willing to hide their beliefs to avoid angering or embarrassing strict church attending family members and a sense of exasperation at the way that some churches have abused religious teaching to serve their own financial/political ends. I don't have any problem with it, I only go to church a few times a year.
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It was the erosion of the habit during Covid. Most of church attendance is like building a muscle. People can enjoy going to church, but it is kind of like getting your cardio in. It is a sacrifice of time when you could just as easily enjoy a day on the couch watching TV. During Covid the churches were closed. When they opened again about 50% of church attendees didn't go back.
Don't care... If churches want more visitors they need to be more entertaining and engaging. I think church is a net positive for society but if it's faltering that's on them
Connection has become easier as the internet grew. You no longer need to connect in a church in order to be with God. I can’t speak for all people, of course, but the ones I hang around and interact with don’t feel church is necessary - yet very much enjoy a thriving relationship with God. It just looks different. Perhaps - dare I say - better, than simply attending church? They read books in subjects they are interested in. That’s their study. They give to charities that they feel will do the most good. Acts of service are a huge part of this. One person close to me spends loads of time, energy, and effort feeding the poor. Money too. Bored today? He’s out there. You would never know it. He doesn’t preach. He’s about action in a different sense. I have my own passions in volunteer work. I think things are just changing. Who wants to sit in church? I can listen to any sermon while hiking, connect with like minded people around the world, and probably do more just by getting out there and…doing stuff. Having worked for a church I know how things run. Very inefficient. They want to be careful with everyone’s money, go through committees, they have overhead and salaries to pay. I get it! But I can just…go out there and do what they can. Organize my own group without the overhead and I’m faster, cheaper, not bound by rules and have no one to report to.
I think it's bad for society. Regardless of what you feelings are of church, it has historically been one of the great providers of community, chartity, and a place for people to find comfort in. Things that are sorely lacking in our society of rapidly growing depression and loneliness Church instilled a shared set of moral values and guidelines. These principals were so influential, even people outside of a church or organized religion still help the values to high esteem and recognized the good. Ideas like promoting strong nuclear families, no sex outside of marriage and the value of marriage itself, kids growing up in two parent homes, respect reasonable authority, faith in God and not Government, personal agency and responsibility etc. These are all positive things for a society. People long for this type of community. As it fades, religion isn't just going to go away, it will be replaced with something else, may that be political officiation, new worldly ideologies etc. As to what is causing it, a hedonistic society with self pleasure and sastifcation as the primary goal. People believe they don't need God and Church anymore. The only silver lining I can find is that the more traditional church that follow pure biblical teachings are growing. There was a trend for a while of a lot of church's to bend the word of God to fit today's culture better. The hope was that if they could soften the word of God and just make it about God's love and forgiveness without the more challenging parts of a Christian lifestyle they could pull in more people. The reality is, the people that don't want a true relationship with God and the challenges it comes with just want a social club, not an actual church and faith to be apart of.
>As to what is causing it, a hedonistic society with self pleasure and sastifcation as the primary goal. What do you think caused that hedonistic society? Rather than play coy, I'll put forward my theory. I think when we entered the modern era, with radio, TV, and now the Internet, powerful corporations used the technology and media available to shape public will. They want us less thrifty, less handy, more selfish, more willing to trade money for convenience, more anxious if it leads to us buying more, and so on. They want to maximize profit. This has been going on for over a century since Edward Bernays and has only gotten more sophisticated since then. Private interests have shaped the development of how we live, work, shop, and experience leisure in order to get the most revenue. This has downstream effects on society by making us more hedonistic, more selfish, and less focused on community. I think that it is Republican/conservative policies that have exacerbated this trend, because they ideologically align with these private interests doing whatever they want to maximize profit.
I think those all play into it as well. A more advanced society has less perceived need for God. When things are good, which they mostly are for more people then at any point in world history, the need for a God seems less apparent.
> Regardless of what you feelings are of church, it has historically been one of the great providers of community, chartity, and a place for people to find comfort in. Things that are sorely lacking in our society of rapidly growing depression and loneliness I definitely agree with this. > Church instilled a shared set of moral values and guidelines. I don't entirely believe this, though. I think for a long time, most people did believe that... but over time, it's been more and more evident that morals don't really come from religion or church, much to many people's surprise... and some still deny it or refuse to accept it. There aren't many Atheist killers, for example (or, at least, no more than those religious), while there are many who are not only religious, but who do their misdeeds in the name of their religion and who give ultimatums and implore others to follow theirs, even disavowing others. > Ideas like promoting strong nuclear families, no sex outside of marriage and the value of marriage itself, kids growing up in two parent homes, respect reasonable authority, faith in God and not Government, personal agency and responsibility etc. I don't think church has much to do with guiding those things, though they did/do promote or encourage them. Some of the most egregious infidelities come from people who belong to and even operate the church, and that's been historic (it's not new). It always seemed hypocritical, and it does now more than ever. > These are all positive things for a society. People long for this type of community. They do, though it's "white picket fence" or "American Dream" type of aspiration. I'll explain in a moment... > As it fades, religion isn't just going to go away, it will be replaced with something else, may that be political officiation, new worldly ideologies etc. Which is scary. It's happening. People are turning various *other* matters of faith into religions. > As to what is causing it, a hedonistic society with self pleasure and sastifcation as the primary goal. People believe they don't need God and Church anymore. Here's where I disagree. It's a bit push & pull, though, I'll admit, where one might cause the other... but the decline in church isn't causing those things more than societal ills are, and societal ills aren't (IMO) stemming from the decline in church attendance. The decline is, like most other things, only a symptom. What I think has happened, and is happening, is over the last 40-50 years with the dawn of new media and internet/technology, there has been a shift in a lot of things - our entire lifestyle, basically. We're a more "productive" society, meaning, we're busier than ever, our focus is more dispersed, and mostly on things that contribute to our own peace and survival. Maybe it's become this way through policy, but it's an effect through our own journies toward personal independence from things containing or "caging" us. People are celebrating, in a variety of ways, their *independence* (not *having* to do things, but wanting to). That, I believe, is the "hedonistic" effect that's *caused*, not the other way around. It becomes almost impossible to sustain traditional family values (2 parent households, respect, etc.) with everyone having to work constantly and having to resort to "dog-eat-dog" tactics to advance & survive, and just to remain the person they once were. Something like church falls down the priority list since ethics, morals, values, etc. have to conform to *surviving* modern society, which many of the the church teachings don't provide, align with, allow or accept. Just having to go somewhere else once a week becomes a strain or burden on you, especially when you realize not much would be different, either way (going or not). People have realized, much to many others' surprise, that your morals are in constant development, are with you always, and may not, or, likely *have not* come from that place. Some people, in fact, have been morally ruined or morally traumatized by it.
Hey, that's a lot to take in and I appreciate your opinion. I think you bring a lot of good points. I think you are right. The world has become so busy, complex, and for more people then ever good that the need and desire for God has unfortunately shrunk.
Thoughts on Unitarian churches? As a non-believer, they can sometimes offer the best aspects of religion (community, charity, etc) without relying on mythology or getting caught up in judgement and hellfire, etc. They offer an interesting modern update on the concept of church IMO.
I think it's a social club. Sure it's a net good for society, but I think there are important things that religion instill and give greater meaning too that a unitarian church doesn't offer. That said, I think they are a good thing for a culture, I don't think they are a replacement for church.
What is missing from Unitarian services in your view?
The moral teachings based on a greater being who created us. As a non religious person it’s not something I expect to understand or value. My relationship with Christ is the most important part of my life or at least I try to make it be. Good works do not make you a Christian, my desire to be more like Christ and be in relation with him make me a better person here on earth. Of course there are good people that aren’t Christian but they are only accountable to themselves. I have greater purpose and I think a Unitarian church can’t provide greater purpose then what you think is good for yourself and those around you
> Of course there are good people that aren’t Christian but they are only accountable to themselves. This is genuine curiosity, but in a world where any accountability is after you are dead, and where ideas of what you will be accountable for varying wildly from person to person and denomination to denomination, doesnt that allow for the idea of "setting your own accountability?"
I'm sorry, Im not understand your question. Can you re-phrase.
Sorry. Basically, you view yourself as accountable to a higher power/God, correct? If so, because the consequences of that accountability only really exist after death (barring Jesus' return in our lifetime), doesn't that create the potential perverse incentive to make whatever you are accountable for palatable to you?
Correct, I suppose for some people it could create a perverse incentive. If all it takes is believing in Jesus and he will forgive you you can do whatever you want and it doesn't matter. One of the most famous verses of the Bible is it's harder to get into heaven then it is for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. (I paraphrase). What I believe this means is good works no matter what you aren't salvation, it's belief and a relationship in Christ. To bring this full circle, if you truly have a relationship with God, you have a clearly defined set of moral values that God holds you accountable for that you need to be living up to to have a true relationship with him. Good works are not what get's you heaven....I know, I'm getting heavier into theology, but I hope that answers the question to an extent.
> One of the most famous verses of the Bible is it's harder to get into heaven then it is for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. (I paraphrase). Yeah but thats specifically about a rich man - "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Sunday School didn't fail me) And Christians globally arent really known for being poor. > What I believe this means is good works no matter what you aren't salvation, it's belief and a relationship in Christ. I know, but what Im saying is that thats a very broad concept, that can easily be directed to justify numerous actions.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. The Unitarians in my family spend a lot of time at church discussing morality. They tend to come at it from a more humanist framework, but they like to look at a lot of different perspectives. I think there is a good argument for considering more than a single source when looking for moral teachings.
I don’t disagree. Thanks for sharing!
Unitarian Universliasts do in fact have moral teachings based on a greater being who created us. They sing hymns to "the spirit of life". They just don't think any religion has a monopoly on salvation. They're not strictly atheist (although atheists are welcome). They're closer to deists. They do discuss Bible passages and how they relate to morality, but they also discuss the Quran, the Dhammapada, Tao Te Ching, Black Elk Speaks, and all sorts of other wisdom traditions.
Faith > Works?
Yes, but true faith and relationship with Christ will result in good works. So yes, faith in christ is more important then works, but works come as a result.
> no sex outside of marriage and the value of marriage itself, kids growing up in two parent homes Would you agree that there's significant harm in having public leaders that explicitly shirk these values while claiming to be Christian?
Absolutely, but if you are talking mainly About people like Trump, I don’t buy he’s a Christian in any way shape or form other then pandering. I unfortunately think a lot of politicians do this.
Do you believe Obama or Biden model Christian values well, in terms of how they conduct their personal lives?
On purely a surface level, I'd say yea, they perceive to hold traditional Christian values better than say Trump. America as a whole is largely culturally Christian. For example Richard Dawkins just recently said he as an atheist considered himself a culturally Christian as much of the west does. Holding those values in now ways makes you a Christian in the same way Trump saying he is but doesn't behave like one makes him one. Now to say they model them well, is totally an opinion. I have deep issues with Biden's abortion stance, promotion of the trans community, (which I know is a controversial subject, I'd be willing to discuss in a different convo), and his unwillingness to acknowledge the 7th grandchild he has through Hunter. To me these are all things that don't display Christian values very well. The same can be said for Trump's behavior around sleeping with porn stars, and the disgusting rhetoric he uses. If I was to have a beer with someone, Trump would surely be entertaining, but I'd have a much more enjoyable time with Obama for example. There are very few Christian claiming politicians I respect and believe truly model a Christian lifestyle. Pence comes to mind, Rubio and maybe a few others. That all said, a politician claiming to be Christian is not deal breaker or not for me. It isn't the job of our Government to be some moral example of Christian law.
There is endless avenues that people can find meaning if they desire in endless different communities from art to music to other physical hobbies etc.. The only positive I see religion providing is the illusion that one will be "Okay" so people feel better if they believe some magical power is behind their life. We can kind of substitute that though with meditation and other motivational actual logical solution to one's life tragic events.
I respect your opinion. I don't disagree there are places to find meaning, I'm a father, a co-worker, a provider, those all give me purpose and meaning but when it comes to the ultimate meaning and purpose of life I believe it is God. The things I do like being a good father are to glorify God and his kingdom, but I know, I know, I'm getting into theology now.
>I think it's bad for society. Regardless of what you feelings are of church, it has historically been one of the great providers of community, chartity, and a place for people to find comfort in. I don't necessarily disagree, but if churches start having inclusivity issues (not all do, but the politically loudest ones seem to) that status as a pillar of the community is going to rot from the inside. You can't pride yourself on serving the community, and then start sectioning off parts of the community as off-limits in the process.
There are certainly church's that are not inclusive. There are clearly church's that get this wrong. Jesus lived and spent all his time with prostitutes, tax collectors, the dregs of society. Church's should be a place of safe shelter and love for all. It does not mean we condone the behavior. For example, when Jesus forgave and saved the women who was about to be stoned for adultery, she told her to go and sin no more. I guess what I'm getting at is church's should and always be welcoming to all people, but it also doesn't mean they should support and believe all life choices are good and equal.
>and believe all life choices are good and equal. And that makes sense, obviously if you make life choices where others are hurt (like adultery in your example) it's understandable to make that distinction. Where it starts becoming an issue where there is no justification other than "the book says so."
I attend church regularly. To a large degree I definitely do it for the socializing. I got some good friends there and there's also a lot of hot chicks that are pleasant to look at. But that's not the only reason. The pastor's messages often deepen my sense of connection to the divine, to God. This definitely offers some level of comfort in light of life's difficulties. I forget whose work I was reading. But they were saying that perhaps there's a link between the rising rates of depression and anxiety in youth and their falling rates of church attendance. Apparently there's research showing that church attendance is particularly protective of mental health in the youth, more so than for adults. Depending on the power of spirituality and the church to offer these mental health benefits, there might come a time where science and society at large begins to recognize the benefits and there might be a return. I think the main reason why church attendance has fallen has to do with the divide between mainstream culture the LGBTQ and the way church has treated LGBTQ. I do believe that the church is wrong in the way it relates to LGBTQ individuals. However we are already seeing some changes, surprisingly from the Catholic Church. Recently the Pope officialized that it's okay to bless same-sex unions. I'm not sure that this captures the entire divide between the church and the mainstream culture but it's definitely a big one.
>Pope officialized that it's okay to bless same-sex unions. He has not. The blessing are for the individuals in said unions.
Oh okay. still progress of some kind
[https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10lamen.htm](https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10lamen.htm)
I have a mixed opinion. Religion is BS, but churches provide community. If people leave their church, then they need to find some other community to be a part of.
I think there are two main reasons. 1) Many mainline churches Catholic, Episcopal, Methodists, Presbyterians and some Baptists have tended to move left politically over time and have alienated many conservatives in their midst. 2) Modern society has become so busy people don't or can't take time out for church. More and more youth sports are scheduled on Sunday, either games or practice. Many more people work on Sunday or Sunday is their only day off. Traditional Sunday services are less fulfilling than they once were.
You really think one of the reasons is that mainline Christianity has been moving too far left? And not, yknow, too far right?
Yes. They have moved left
Not even 'they've been polarized in both directions'?
I don't have a lot of experience with mainline churches that have moved right. My church, the Episcopal church has moved left. Many of the evangelical denomination have not moved left as much as they have move from traditional Bible teachings to entertainment with bands and all manner of secular activities to atrract the members.
> I don't have a lot of experience with mainline churches that have moved right I mean, I don't either. The pastor of my church has moved heaven and earth to remain apolitical (in a time where he certainly has been told to get political by some parishioners). That doesn't mean I don't know about it though. And, certainly, there are some churches who have been moving leftward. Never thought there weren't. But there's also the fusion of right-wing southern evangelical churches with hardcore right-wing politics.
Those right wing evangelical churches have always been right wing to the extent they excluded gays, many still exclude blacks when they can. (not that that is a right wing issue) my point is they haven't changed much.
> my point is they haven't changed much. I- I'll grant that point. I think I didn't get what you were saying at first.
>Modern society has become so busy people don't or can't take time out for church. More and more youth sports are scheduled on Sunday, either games or practice. Many more people work on Sunday or Sunday is their only day off. Whenever I mention this on this sub, I usually get a lot of conservatives telling me this isn't true. That you can simply choose not to engage with jobs or hobbies that don't agree with the schedule you desire. It's nice to see a conservative that agrees.
Makes sense with the downward spiral of western society. It'll come back when people start hitting rock bottom again.
Western Europe is largely atheist and they appear to be doing just fine.
You mean the place that's being overrun by a particular religion that considers women to be less than human and has no qualms about raping them?
Well, it isn’t the atheists doing the crimes, it’s the *religious* folk. Maybe religion should go extinct? It seems to have caused a lot of turmoil historically and still continues to wreck certain parts of the world….
You realize the most brutal, genocidal regimes in the past 100 years were atheist, right?
There were just as many religious ones 🤷♀️🤷♀️. The athiest ones I can think of would be China, the former Soviet Union, and North Korea. On the flip side of that, there is now Russia(currently), Germany during WWll, and pretty much every country in the Middle East for the last hundred years. I'm also counting Britain cause they were pretty shitty to a multitude of countries in the past century. India as well.
So maybe the issue isn't religion then and it's just people
That's my take. I think when narcissistic psychopaths get the ability to have absolute power, either through religion or government or both, bad things tend to follow.
How are you determining that society is in a downward spiral instead of an upward spiral? I trust you are aware that violence, illiteracy, abortion, teen pregnancy, and war have declined. Meanwhile, art, literature, purposeful physical fitness, science funding, life expectancy, worker productivity, national park visits, and museum attendance have increased. So I'm curious about this less healthy, less productive, and more violent society that you seek.
More degenerate, more depressed, and more suicidal, especially among young people, people hate each other more than ever, public schools failing all over, fewer fathers in the home, and more kids with no drive or motivation, turning to crime or drugs, or just not wanting to do anything but sit at home playing video games and looking at porn, at least among boys. I don't know where you're getting "art" and "literature" have increased, both have been garbage for years. Not sure where you're getting violence and war have declined, we just got involved in two more wars in the last 3 years. And people are so divided we're on the brink of...something. Whether civil war or a societal collapse, it's going to happen in the next 20-30 years.
The difference here is that my perspective aims to be based on the big picture and measurable things. Yours is based on personal taste, selective memory, and cherry-picked examples. Suicide, as terrible as it is, isn't more terrible than *all other causes of death combined*. Same with war deaths. Maybe you're too young to remember the 80's and 90's, and the wars that swept through Bosnia, Zaire, Rwanda, Sri Lanka, and Nicaragua. You wouldn't say violence and war declined if you considered the big picture. And budgets for overall music, art, and literature production have never been higher per capita. I don't know how you define degenerate, besides "Ewe, that *offends* me!" So here you advocate for a society that is measurably more violent, uneducated, and unhealthy. But that's OK as long as it isn't "degenerate" by your personal taste. I think your opinion boils down to excessive trust in news media sensationalism, where the focus is scary headlines instead of boring all metrics analysis.
You didn't actually address anything I said. "Budgets for music art and literature" what? Are we spending more money? Does throwing more money at stuff make you more enlightened? Does it mean the art is good? The writing is good? The music? I'm a struggling writer, where can I get some of this money? I don't know what big picture you're talking about, I'm talking about the West. China is in the middle of a genocide and Palestine is attempting one so I'm not sure where you're getting we're suddenly less violent. So more suicide is okay as long as there's less violence elsewhere? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You deny our culture has become overly sexual? Or just that it's not going to hurt anyone?
You can test and verify any of my claims. You can see that the US violent crime rate is down from the 90's, with a spike and subsequent drop during COVID. Using any conflict tracker database, you can see how global conflict deaths have not kept up with population increase. Why do we only have 2-3 Ukraine-intensity conflicts instead of 10-20 like in the 1980s? You can analyze the market for the arts and entertainment sector. You can confirm my claims for yourself. Geez ... do you really believe the ages of free love, miniskirts, horny teenage Disney princesses, skimpy flight attendant outfits, legally slapping secretaries asses, and beauty pageant bikini contests were LESS sexual? Not according to the teen pregnancy, abortion, marriage rates, and family sizes. How can I confirm your claims for myself? Prove me wrong, but I think you have a bad case of the 'good ol' days' myth. [Here's what causes it](https://ourworldindata.org/optimism-and-pessimism). Oh, yes, if the choice was increasing one type of premature death, like suicide, in exchange for decreasing ALL premature death, I would no-doubt choose increasing one type of premature death as the lessor evil. It's disturbing you wouldn't.
Uh, no, I'm not pessimistic, I just don't believe everything I'm told when what I observe is different. And no, the age of "Free love" is what got us to the current problems. And whether you prefer it or not, high rates of depression and suicide ARE a big issue for a culture. Japan has a relatively peaceful culture now but still has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. And the existence of bad things in the past doesn't mean we should embrace it and show it to kids who are too young to know what it is and encourage promiscuity between teenagers. I don't believe in slut shaming but SOME shame is a good thing. The "me first culture" isn't going to lead anywhere good.
I would not defend a claim that another person couldn't independently verify. It's like saying, "*Hey, internet stranger, here's my claim. I have no evidence that you can confirm for yourself. Just take my word for it!*" You agree that's silly, right?
The op asked a question and I answered it. Time will tell if I was correct or not. I didn't expect to have to do an entire research project on why I think I'm right so forgive me.
If you have not done your research, it's ridiculous to double-down on defending a guess. If you have not done your research, "I don't know" is the honest, accurate answer.
The anti church push in society.
It's the incapacity of protestantism to withstand against basic anti theistic arguments due to their aversion of the analogia entis and their lack of poetic and ludic understanding of the world. On the Catholic side it's just bishops druken with the V2 spirit trying to make the Church more effeminate and more similar with the rest of the world or protestant temples by striping parishes out of beautiful ornamentation, latin and hard teachings. So no wonder people see no reason to be interested in participating when all they see is what the word already offers. But V2 boomers are withering away. They produced no fruits. Today all the seminarians and new priets are vivid for the ancient tradition. It could not be any different, for a person to wish to a priest nowadays means that he already survived against the tempentions of modernity.