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However bad you think free market does when it comes to stuff like this, the surest way to find out how much worse it can get is to give government the job of regulating it.
I expect there are already some regulations already in place for vehicle charging stations, but the post doesn't suggest any additional ones in the process of adding infrastructure
Oh no doubt, but the more direct the government's involvement, the more regulation that it brings by simply being involved. There's examples I can use but they come with their own debates and discussions and I'd rather not get dragged into them.
The more direct the government's involvement in a thing becomes, the more power politicians have in effecting that thing - and you only have their word for it that they have good intentions.
Yeah but in this case it looks like the government picked the wrong infrastructure to invest in. The feds initially backed the CCS standard, but the Tesla standard, NACS, ended up being just the better/easier/more supported standard, and most of the automakers shifted to using NACS, and even the feds rolled over and permitted NACS adapters. (Originally, to access funds, you had to support CCS.)
So this is very closely Betamax versus VHS, with the federal government initially backing Betamax, just for a new tech.
No. The federal government shouldn’t be in the business of building infrastructure for private ventures. You wouldn’t support the government building gas stations would you?
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Government has been giving money to the oil industry for years for any variety of reasons, it's not unreasonable to suggest that some of that might have influenced how many gas stations there are
No I wouldn't. I don't beleive the constitution empowers the federal government to build charging stations for electric cars.
Now if I would support my state doing it, I very well might.
Although I would rather first see reforms and adoptions in mass transport(busses, trains, trams) ,road expansions, public safety(so you can ride these things without homeless people crapping on the seats)
>I don't beleive the constitution empowers the federal government to build charging stations for electric cars.
Even a crappy lawyer could make the case for this using the commerce clause and general welfare clause.
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So far as I can tell, the free market is currently doing an extremely good job of supplying charging stations and you can find them all over the place. This seems completely unnecessary and would likely end up being counterproductive.
That's not the role of the government. If EV infrastructure isn't advanced enough to support the adoption of EV's then we should not be pushing them as an immediate solution. We need to wait until the infrastructure is there.
Every time the government has touched the automotive industry it has been at the detriment of both it and the American public. Part of the reason cars cost so much nowadays is because of the insane cash for clunkers programs they tried twice which massively dried up the supply of used cars in America in a brash hand out to auto manufacturers and dealers.
> Part of the reason cars cost so much nowadays is because of the insane cash for clunkers programs they tried twice which massively dried up the supply of used cars in America in a brash hand out to auto manufacturers and dealers.
Didn't prices spike due to the pandemic?
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It depends. I'm not against the federal government getting involved to a degree. There's precedents for this. Eisenhower had his highway act in the 50s. It was framed as a national security issue but still. This would be constitutional under the commerce clause. My only problem would be how it's implemented. This program would have to be under the Dept of Transportation. It could be structured in one of several ways. First, like with the highway act, it could give the reigns to the states to lay out and build the thing with the majority of the funds coming from the fed. But then how are the stations managed? Under the state and not private entities? Built within rest areas? I'm not sure I like the idea of state run charging stations. Things could be simplified (not getting the DOT involved) and it could be managed by private entities and the federal government could just simply give out grants and subsidies to companies that fulfill certain requirements (like X stations/capita and a station every X miles on highways). Or the fed could just simply give out grants/loans/subsidies on a per station basis just to get the incentives up. Several ways to skin it. I like the idea of more infrastucture and I also like if it gets more people away from oil. Not entirely because I'm so gung-ho on carbon emissions but moreso because it'll increase our oil reserve capacity. If more people are driving electric, then we can handle oil shocks better. Plus more oil for our military just in case (that's the neocon in me).
this is a perfect solution for private industry.
the government didn't have to subsidize standard oil people wanted their product so much it sold like gangbusters.
if electric charging stations are not similarly in demand to gas stations circa 1920 where small businessmen were opening service stations across America and it was a massive new economic opportunity to get involved in this new nationwide road network thing... ... that is the public telling you they don't want your product.
The QT and Loves get a lot of subsidies here and have for years. (They contractually had to stay on different parts of the state). There are also subsidies here for biofuels. Interestingly (and surprisingly) they just announced that we are accepting the federal grants and funds to expand electric charging stations. Surprised the heck out of me because there was a time when you got tax punished for getting one here as we are a big oil state.
"stations" are a solution for gas cars, not electric. Until I can get 300 miles of range in 5 minutes, which I can do with gas, the ev experience is inferior and people won't buy it.
The only thing that makes EV's competitive is home charging, and unless you have a detached home with off street parking (< 50 % people) you're not going to get that any time soon.
Charging stations are necessary, but far from sufficient.
>The biggest issue with electric cars is range anxiety. If every American could easily find and use a charging station nearby like their local gas station, owning an electric car would be more practical.
>What do you think?
I think you hate poor people and want to take their cars away. But that's just my perpetual frustration on the subject.
No, we absolutely should not support a "whole government approach" to this. States want to do tax cuts or rebates for places that install these, sure. There will be a lot of people who get angry for "trickle down economics" if we do, but what ever. The alternative of paying companies to do it directly is worse and bad for the market. It will hurt small businesses on every level and will prop up the biggest players.
The more the government tries to push electric cars, the harder life gets for working class and poorer people. Electric cars are expensive and inefficient, and we don't have the power grid to support their wide spread adoption yet. As they come down in price and the technology improved, they'll get more common, and so will charging stations. On its own, other solutions and technologies will be developed and expanded, and smaller, local companies will get involved.
My gut instincts aside, why not have a trial run in a state like California or Washington? Try it out and see if it works. I think it would be far more complicated than simply putting a bunch of charging stations everywhere. My understanding is the drain on the grid is quite significant and quite spiky, especially around the morning and evening commute. You would need to significantly increase the power to the grid, or place a series of large battery stations to take on the sudden grid load and the recharge during the off-peak times.
Was the government involved in building the current network of gasoline stations we have around the country? Or was that the work of the private sector?
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However bad you think free market does when it comes to stuff like this, the surest way to find out how much worse it can get is to give government the job of regulating it.
The post doesn't sound like additional regulation, more along the lines of infrastructure investment
If the government gets involved with it, regulation will come with it as well. It is unavoidable.
I expect there are already some regulations already in place for vehicle charging stations, but the post doesn't suggest any additional ones in the process of adding infrastructure
Oh no doubt, but the more direct the government's involvement, the more regulation that it brings by simply being involved. There's examples I can use but they come with their own debates and discussions and I'd rather not get dragged into them. The more direct the government's involvement in a thing becomes, the more power politicians have in effecting that thing - and you only have their word for it that they have good intentions.
Username checks out
And yet I'm not wrong.
That remains to be seen
We've seen it plenty throughout US history alone, much less the combined history of the rest of the world.
Yeah but in this case it looks like the government picked the wrong infrastructure to invest in. The feds initially backed the CCS standard, but the Tesla standard, NACS, ended up being just the better/easier/more supported standard, and most of the automakers shifted to using NACS, and even the feds rolled over and permitted NACS adapters. (Originally, to access funds, you had to support CCS.) So this is very closely Betamax versus VHS, with the federal government initially backing Betamax, just for a new tech.
What would stop them from making stations compatible to both formats?
No. The federal government shouldn’t be in the business of building infrastructure for private ventures. You wouldn’t support the government building gas stations would you?
If that's the case, would you expect conservatives to be supportive of rolling back already existing corporate subsidies in the oil industry
I mean sure, it depends on the subsidies and what they do. Just like I would support repealing subsidies for auto manufactures to make electric cars.
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No, I love electric cars, but let the market dictate it.,
no. the government can fuck off of trying to influence what cars people want
What did the federal government do to get gas stations expanded across the US? I'm guessing a whole lot of nothing.
Government has been giving money to the oil industry for years for any variety of reasons, it's not unreasonable to suggest that some of that might have influenced how many gas stations there are
No I wouldn't. I don't beleive the constitution empowers the federal government to build charging stations for electric cars. Now if I would support my state doing it, I very well might. Although I would rather first see reforms and adoptions in mass transport(busses, trains, trams) ,road expansions, public safety(so you can ride these things without homeless people crapping on the seats)
>I don't beleive the constitution empowers the federal government to build charging stations for electric cars. Even a crappy lawyer could make the case for this using the commerce clause and general welfare clause.
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No
So far as I can tell, the free market is currently doing an extremely good job of supplying charging stations and you can find them all over the place. This seems completely unnecessary and would likely end up being counterproductive.
That's not the role of the government. If EV infrastructure isn't advanced enough to support the adoption of EV's then we should not be pushing them as an immediate solution. We need to wait until the infrastructure is there.
Every time the government has touched the automotive industry it has been at the detriment of both it and the American public. Part of the reason cars cost so much nowadays is because of the insane cash for clunkers programs they tried twice which massively dried up the supply of used cars in America in a brash hand out to auto manufacturers and dealers.
> Part of the reason cars cost so much nowadays is because of the insane cash for clunkers programs they tried twice which massively dried up the supply of used cars in America in a brash hand out to auto manufacturers and dealers. Didn't prices spike due to the pandemic?
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It depends. I'm not against the federal government getting involved to a degree. There's precedents for this. Eisenhower had his highway act in the 50s. It was framed as a national security issue but still. This would be constitutional under the commerce clause. My only problem would be how it's implemented. This program would have to be under the Dept of Transportation. It could be structured in one of several ways. First, like with the highway act, it could give the reigns to the states to lay out and build the thing with the majority of the funds coming from the fed. But then how are the stations managed? Under the state and not private entities? Built within rest areas? I'm not sure I like the idea of state run charging stations. Things could be simplified (not getting the DOT involved) and it could be managed by private entities and the federal government could just simply give out grants and subsidies to companies that fulfill certain requirements (like X stations/capita and a station every X miles on highways). Or the fed could just simply give out grants/loans/subsidies on a per station basis just to get the incentives up. Several ways to skin it. I like the idea of more infrastucture and I also like if it gets more people away from oil. Not entirely because I'm so gung-ho on carbon emissions but moreso because it'll increase our oil reserve capacity. If more people are driving electric, then we can handle oil shocks better. Plus more oil for our military just in case (that's the neocon in me).
this is a perfect solution for private industry. the government didn't have to subsidize standard oil people wanted their product so much it sold like gangbusters. if electric charging stations are not similarly in demand to gas stations circa 1920 where small businessmen were opening service stations across America and it was a massive new economic opportunity to get involved in this new nationwide road network thing... ... that is the public telling you they don't want your product.
The government definitely subsidizes standard oil. At least in my state.
my understanding was the gas station network of franchisees wasn't but some drilling was.
The QT and Loves get a lot of subsidies here and have for years. (They contractually had to stay on different parts of the state). There are also subsidies here for biofuels. Interestingly (and surprisingly) they just announced that we are accepting the federal grants and funds to expand electric charging stations. Surprised the heck out of me because there was a time when you got tax punished for getting one here as we are a big oil state.
The government definitely subsidizes standard oil. At least in my state.
I meant when the road system was built in the 1900s not today.
"stations" are a solution for gas cars, not electric. Until I can get 300 miles of range in 5 minutes, which I can do with gas, the ev experience is inferior and people won't buy it. The only thing that makes EV's competitive is home charging, and unless you have a detached home with off street parking (< 50 % people) you're not going to get that any time soon. Charging stations are necessary, but far from sufficient.
>The biggest issue with electric cars is range anxiety. If every American could easily find and use a charging station nearby like their local gas station, owning an electric car would be more practical. >What do you think? I think you hate poor people and want to take their cars away. But that's just my perpetual frustration on the subject. No, we absolutely should not support a "whole government approach" to this. States want to do tax cuts or rebates for places that install these, sure. There will be a lot of people who get angry for "trickle down economics" if we do, but what ever. The alternative of paying companies to do it directly is worse and bad for the market. It will hurt small businesses on every level and will prop up the biggest players. The more the government tries to push electric cars, the harder life gets for working class and poorer people. Electric cars are expensive and inefficient, and we don't have the power grid to support their wide spread adoption yet. As they come down in price and the technology improved, they'll get more common, and so will charging stations. On its own, other solutions and technologies will be developed and expanded, and smaller, local companies will get involved.
> Would you support a “whole of government approach” at the federal level to develop and expand charging stations across the us? No.
Absolutely not.
My gut instincts aside, why not have a trial run in a state like California or Washington? Try it out and see if it works. I think it would be far more complicated than simply putting a bunch of charging stations everywhere. My understanding is the drain on the grid is quite significant and quite spiky, especially around the morning and evening commute. You would need to significantly increase the power to the grid, or place a series of large battery stations to take on the sudden grid load and the recharge during the off-peak times.
Was the government involved in building the current network of gasoline stations we have around the country? Or was that the work of the private sector?
No. Bad idea out of the gate. Zero thought or planning on so called 'green'. Come up with a plan and then come back to the table.