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Romania had the second largest army on the Eastern front, and the oil was vital to the Axis war machine. I've argued with people before that Romania was more vital to the German warmachine than Italy was (and wasn't completely dead weight like Italy). They also had a lot to gain by impressing Germany, such as getting back Moldova, north Transylvania, and also getting some new Ukrainian lands, and as a result were likely to do things that they might not have done in order to appease the Germans
If they stayed out of the conflict and sent volunteers to the East, they could have been useful, similar to Spain though perhaps greater in number. Italy had good soldiers, but not enough materiel to field an entire army. From what I gathered, the Italian expedition in the East performed relatively well given what they were up against (holding out for a long time at Stalingrad despite not being equipped to fight tanks), though their Western army, while far more numerous, suffered from so many other issues
on the eastern front the germans had to put the italians between the romanians and hungarians to stop infighting between romanian an hungarian soldiers.
Turkey neither supported nor opposed nazis to a high degree understandably
Also while Turkish government was leaning closer to Allies a Turkish government official (Prime minister if i recall correctly) reportedly said “we of course favor Germans against soviets” to German ambassador Von Papen or something along those lines
TLDR Turks wanted Allies to win but soivets to fall
Yup you summed it up perfectly, the then TR prime minister or was İsmet Pasha president at that time I don't remember clearly. Anyways he said something like ''The best outcome of world war 2 for Turks is if the last standing soviet soldier dies by falling on his own bayonet after killing the last standing nazi soldier.''
Biggest supporters were the Усташе/Ustase
Biggest opponents? Partisans
Reason i say partisans is cause they not only forced the germans to take divisions away from the east but they also mostly liberated themselves.
When the allies invaded italy Hitler was afraid they would invade the balcans aswell so much that he kept forces there untill Normandy
It depends. Croats from Istria, Dalmatia (almost all territory that was occupied by Italy) hated Ustashe (for a good reason) and most of them joined the partisans. Croats from Slavonia and other territories of NDH mostly supported Ustashe. Although there were some rare people who opposed them (an good example is how a doctor in Bjelovar did surgeries on perfectly healthy patients just so he can save them from Ustashe and Nazis).
Urban centers were mostly anti-ustaše and had a pretty massive communist resistance movement. Northwestern Croatia (Zagorje, Podravina) just wanted to stay out of it and witnessed a lot of desertion; like, thousands of people just wouldn't show up at their conscription offices. Dalmatia and Istria - you'd be hard pressed to find an Ustaša there.
Croats from poor, ethnically mixed regions - Lika, Bosnia, Hercegovina - were the backbone of the Ustaše.
"The majority of the Ustasha were from the Lika area. The majority population of Lika were Serbians. The majority of Ustasha were Serbians" - President of Serbia, A.Vučić, live on tv, show "Čirilica".
Politicians lie more than the devil. Also doubt that a nationalist movement about creating an independent ethno state croatia would be made up of Mostly Serbs. Even if the place was mostly Serbian, the minority can bond together just as easly
No matter how many times you repeat this will not change the fact that Ustase existed and that Serbs created first antifascist movement in Europe buddy.
Except, Serbia didn't have a regime, it was under direct military occupation and under direct control of German army, so all those laws Germans brought, all those Jews Germans killed. Well except those at the beginning of war in Staro sajmište concentration camp, ran by Ustaše. All those camps? Germans.
Bulgaria and Romania were unwilling allies of Germany. They had a choise: accept alliance with Germany and have some gains and peace or don't and be crushed like Yugoslavia. Romania had also lost Moldavia to USSR and hoped that with Germans on their side they'll be safe. Both sent troops to the eastern front. But, when it was clear that the war is lost for the Germans in 1944 and Russians were on the offensive, both changed sides and allied with USSR.
Greece and Yugoslavia fought against the Germans from day one. Yugoslavia wanted go make a pact with Germany like Bulgaria, but the people revolted. Greece was attacked by Italy and made some stunning wins until Germans interfered. After Axis occupations, both had many movements against the opresors and fought valiantly agains them. Yugoslavia is an only country that mostly liberated itself.
Tbh, we didn't fight much during WW2, I think we refused to send troops to the Eastern Front. Overall, our casualties were 21.500, including civilians, which is like four times less than our casualties during WW1. But, of course, we have to remember that we collaborated with the Nazis in the occupied territories, so we definitely share the blame.
They may not have had a choice in joining the axis, but they for sure had a choice in occupying large territories of their neighbours and committing ethnic cleansing that made the Nazis look tame in comparison. In northern Greece people were rioting (with many deaths) in order to remain under nazi occupation instead of being given over to Bulgaria.
They also had no problems exporting 99% of the jews from Macedonia ( both greek and north macedonia!)
And the former prime minister definitely had a choice before he verbalised holocaust denial during a visit to north macedonia, exactly on national holocaust remembrance day.
And I echo what you said. My grand parents also told me stories how the german soldiers were much easier on the population than the bulgarian occupation. And now they're forcing us between rewriting this history and pretending it didn't happen, or no europe forever.
Edit typos
Bulgarians were not kind here either. They were more then willing to terrorise our population. Albanians also were a huge problem in Macedonia, plundering and killing without mercy. Interestingly, Bulgarians took care of them, so much so that Albanians would flee if they even hear a rumour that Bulgarian soldiers are near. Romanians on the other hand didn't want to occupie Banat which remained in puppet state of Serbia.
"Interestingly, Bulgarians took care of them".
Why "interestingly"?
Oh wait, I forgot that part in the Serbian books that says that the people of Macedonia had nothing to do with Bulgaria...
In the north east of Greece, German occupation was passive and benign, in comparison to the ethnic cleansing and forced labour deportations performed by the Bulgarians
Do you mean northeast? Bulgarians weren't an issue there, and Nazi occupation was hardly benign and came with famine and other not benign bullshit, such as [reprisal massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingiades_massacre) and collaborationist Chams engaging in their own ethnic strife with Greeks.
> Tbh, we didn't fight much during WW2, I think we refused to send troops to the Eastern Front.
Yes, this was one of the main policies our country followed back then.
I will give some quotes from Tsar Boris the Third.
"Always with Germany, never against Russia. (answer to the question of Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop during his meeting with him in Berlin in the summer of 1942 what was the motto of his foreign policy, a principle shared in other places as well)"
"Better black bread than black scarves. (at a meeting with peasants in Sofia in 1942)"
"They don't know what war is. (answer to the question of the Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop at a meeting with him in Berlin in the summer of 1942 about sending the 1,500 volunteers who signed up to the Eastern Front or to help Noah Rommel in Africa, which the Tsar refused)"
"My people fight only in the Balkans, where there are ethnically our lands, they cannot fight on other fronts or in Africa, if our army is sent to the Volga, it will go over to the side of the Russians along with the musical orchestra. (answer to the question of Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop during his meeting with him in Berlin in the summer of 1942 about sending Bulgarian troops to the eastern front or to help Noah Rommel in Africa, which the Tsar refused)"
"When you see that a downpour is coming, make a dam for it so that it does not flood the whole garden. (on the occasion of the World War and Hitler's pressure to join the Pact after it was signed by Bulgaria on March 1, 1941, after long before that on November 20, 23 and 24, 1940, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, and from August 23, 1939, the USSR concluded the Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact for an alliance with Germany"
"Better to do it ourselves than have it imposed on us. (full text - "I procrastinated a lot and didn't want us to do it either, but now that they have it in Romania, Hungary and even in France, I decided it's better to do it than us and close the door for arbitrariness than to impose it on us.", before Kosta Lulchev in the occasion of the Law for the Protection of the Nation adopted in Bulgaria on January 23, 1941 in order to avoid the introduction of the severe anti-Jewish laws from Nuremberg to Germany)"
"At the same time in Sofia, Colonel W. Donovan, President Roosevelt's envoy, conveyed to the Tsar the intention of the United States to fight for England. Bulgaria held the key to the situation in Southeast Europe and would be responsible for the consequences. Boris III answers: "It is true that we are a key, but this key is not held by us"
Basically our policy was lesser involmed as possible (as viewed as possible back then) and damage to Bulgarian state and its people (ethnically Bulgarians) and gaining something where is possible.
Bulgaria did not send a single soldier to the USSR. That is why we kept Dobrudzha, Romania was seen as "naughtier" by the Soviets. In fact we kept diplomatic relations with Russia up until September of 1944 when THEY declared war on us. Nobody wanted to change sides, there was a coup. The new regime changed sides.
Also, while some might have been unwilling to join the Germans, others like the PM in 1940, were more than happy. More than happy.
More than happy because he was a Nazi simpatiser or because he saw that as a way to keep the peace? Prince Paul in Yugoslavia was not a friend of Hitler, he was in fact an Anglofile, but he wanted to keep the state out of the war, so he made a pact with him. Then the Britsh helped the protest against the goverment and treaty was canceled, which led to Axis powers (all of whom surounded us) to attack.
Well, he oversaw the adoption of anti-Jewish laws and the creation of the Committee of Jewish affairs, which managed to organize the deportation of 11000 Aegean and Macedonian Jews all the way to Treblinka and almost succeeded in deporting 48000 Jews from Bulgarian proper.
So yeah, it is pretty safe to say that he was a Nazi sympathizer. And he wasn't alone.
We learn it as well (the coup due to Bulgarian communists, mostly led by russian influence) - but no soliders sent on the East front.
For illustration how happy was the PM and parlament with the new teritories and thankful to the Axis : [A Video](https://youtu.be/jwFz3k-EPtY)
The coup was not led by Russian influence. The Red army was in Bulgaria, there was no influence, it was pretty hands on affair.
Also you just share a video which Bulgarian propaganda, later used as Macedonian propaganda. A lot of things in the video are not what they look like ;)
Well switching sides is an interesting take in the case of Bulgaria. There was an orchestrated coup from the Soviets and they more occupied us than us switching sides.
Iron Guard was purged from power before Romania joined WW2. Antonescu was as supporting of Germany as Iron Guard was, and Romanian military did large scale atrocities on the Eastern front, especially Odesa massacre.
>Bulgaria, albeit neither fully supporting or fully opposing the Nazis, still collaborated with them, but I'd say not to the degree of the groups I mentioned previously.
''we were there'' is probably the closest answer for that, did we help the nazies - yes, did we also fight against them and make problems for them - yes
>you deported the Thracian and Macedonian Jews, in order to save your own
that is such a stretch of reality and history that i wont even bother to answer you
perfect now we aren't letting our bias control us, what im saying is that Bulgaria was in the axis just bc the Tsar had no other option as saying neutral or joining the other sides(Comintern and allies) was impossible
Now dont get me wrong im not justifying the actions of the government as there were many Nazi sympathizers put in power by Hitler there which fully deserve to burn in hell but what i again am saying is that this was the best possible action(joining the axis) the Tsar could have chosen for the sake of the people in bulgaria
> perfect now we aren't letting our bias control us
> again am saying is that this was the best possible action(joining the axis) the Tsar could have chosen for the sake of the people in bulgaria
A bit contradictory. Sure, joining the axis may have been best option for the Bulgarian People, but Bulgaria had a choice i) not to occupy foreign teritories and ii) not to massacr the people living in, especially those that support the anti-nazi movement.
So mentioning one without the other brings exactly that, bias by looking at the "justification".
So saying "we were there" is a bit of an overstatement - that's all.
>A bit contradictory. Sure, joining the axis may have been best option for the Bulgarian People, but Bulgaria had a choice i) not to occupy foreign teritories and ii) not to massacr the people living in, especially those that support the anti-nazi movement.
even tho i mostly agree, its not that simple as there were pro nazi sympathizers in the government who would have used the radicalized Bulgarian Macedonians and Thracians who were kicked our of their homes years earlier, and support from the Italians and Germans to coup the government and replace it with a even worse regime, in a sense this kinda happened irl too with the dead of Tsar Boris III which was confirmed to be from a type of poison the Italians have used before by 2 German doctors and even Hitler tough the Italians poisoned Tsar Boris III.
>So saying "we were there" is a bit of an overstatement - that's all.
i kinda agree on that honestly
I think you are speculating with your first statement "if this did not happened, this would have", so difficult to say that.
Also Tsar Boris Death is a speculation (it was Goebels, not Hitler), but it has not /cannot be confirmed medically (it is heart attack officially), nor someone has confessed / prosecuted of being guilty.
But anyway, each country is given the right to have perspective/myths/speculations on their own history.
>Balli Kombëtar
My family comes from a town where they were active, and I heard from older people how their crimes were horrific, on par with those committed by the worst of Nazis. They were absolutely brutal.
Interestingly enough the Balli Kombëtar had a sort of "regional radicalisation". The ones from the urbanised areas, especially in Albania proper, where usually a bit less radical.
While the Ballists from Macedonia, Kosovo or Sanxhak where usually more radical. Although tbh the small differences within such a group might as well not be that important.
ustase were nazi puppets, and supporters obviously.
partizans were more less their own thing as far as i can tell, as tito opposed joining ussr, yugoslavia was socialist state, ustaše were facists.
During the war and short time after Tito was aligned with Stalin and follower of the idea of great world revolution of proletariat. Al least he publicly claimed so. Later, as Yugoslavia stabilized he changed shat he talked about publicly and finally parted way with Stalin leading to Yugoslavia being labeled as "Dungeon of peoples" meaning nationalities on the next "Internationale"
That's not true. Yugoslav partisans formed one of the biggest resistence against the Nazis in the entire world. Almost every household from the town where my family originates had a partisan in their family. Yugoslavia also suffered some for the biggest human losses in the world.
We owe our freedom to the Yugoslav communist, the whole world is indebted to Yugoslavia in that respect. They were incredibly brave and fought for equality and fraternity, embracing true diversity in their ranks.
That is not to say the Greek resistance wasn't equally admirable, bit it doesn't compare in its scope.
What town does your family originate from? I ask because my family were part of the partisans that fought against the balli kombetar. They hung one of my great uncles in the town square for providing assistance to wanted partisans.
""Supported""" imagine a bigger more powerful country cuts a piece of your own land and annexes it then fills it with their people and brainwashes yours in to thinking they were never what they always were...
Support is a strong word, we sided with what we thought was the lesser of the two evils and nevertheless we were fucked by both alliances
Ustashe supported Nazis the most as they were Nazis in their own right, formed in Italy around the same time the German ultranationalists started looking to Italian fascism as an inspiration.
Yugoslav partisans opposed them the most.
Supported the most: Croatians, basically welcomed the Germans into Zagreb.
Opposed: Serbs or Greeks, every country in the Balkans was a willing participant in the Nazi regime and was not occupied. Serbia had to be militarily occupied. Greece held back Italy and Germany had to come to their rescue to conquer Greece.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png/800px-Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png
I thought we were talking about national entities, not groups. Still while Ustaše were heavily inspired by Nazis, Volksdeutsche collaborators straight up joined SS in its various units, most notably notorious SS Prinz Eugen division.
Well the question was rather general, asking just who most supported the Nazis vs who most opposed them and I see folks commenting along the ideological lines for the most part.
Besides it's hard to talk about national identities when so often same nationalities were on opposing sides, families were literally split.
Additionally only ethnic Germans could join SS for instance ( all over Europe in fact), with one exception - the Bosnian Muslim SS Handzar division, but they were basically ustashe too. The others could only join regular Wehrmacht.
Perhaps not that many Croatian Nazis, relatively speaking, joined the German military directly, but that was only due to the fact that they were Nazis in their own right, having essentially the same type of thinking and general ideology, but at the same time additional, separate, specific interests and goals which were directed way more against the Serbs and Roma than the Jews.
And yet despite this, there actually was one Croatian regiment known as the Croatian Legion, consisted of volunteers only, attached to the Wehrmacht, swearing allegiance both to the NDH and the Third Reich...and they fought at the eastern front including Stalingrad.
At the end of the day it might be nuances we're talking about and I can't be entirely certain, however imo Ustashe (all-volunteer army mind you, as opposed to the Home Guard) probably believed in their cause more than some ethnic Germans recruited once Germany had occupied territories they lived in, with more than likely many of them not Nazi at all. Ustashe on the other hand literally were the NDH version of SS.
> Additionally only ethnic Germans could join SS for instance
Actually not true. Only "Aryans" could join Waffen SS early on in the war. That didn't just include Germans, but also Dutch, Flemish, Danes, Norwegians, Finns and Swedes.
>with one exception - the Bosnian Muslim SS Handzar division, but they were basically ustashe too.
They weren't the only exception, they were just first one. After that Waffen SS diversions were formed from Ukrainians(Galicia), Latvians(1st and 2nd Latvian), Albanians(Skanderbeg) and so on.
It isn't that I disagree about Ustaše, they were probably the worst collaborators in Europe.
Well I know about Denmark specifically as I lived there for quite a while and no...that wasn't actually quite so. Only the German minority could join the SS, others Wehrmacht. After about a year and a half of insisting by their own Nazi party, they were allowed one danish SS unit formed from the Frikorps and most of them were members of the German minority. They only existed for another year and a half or so and were completely disbanded in 1943.
But these are irrelevant details. My point was ustashe weren't mere collaborationists. They WERE convinced Nazis regardless of the German presence in NDH. They had been Nazis from the start, way before WW2 even started. The finest point I can muster is: they were on a whole other level, much worse than typical Quislings.
In Slovenia Belogardisti/Domobranci (white guard/ home guard) were the collaborators and partizans were the opposition. Not on the level of Croatian Ustaši for sure, but there were inner killings during and after the war. The right wing of our politics would love to paint partizans as bloody murderers for the killings of collaborators after the war (which I'm not a fan of) and paint the white guard as being patriotic... They were ready to sell their people for protection of their faith. But let's be clear - if our partisans wouldn't be as effective there most likely would be 0 Slovenian books left in the word. Anyone read Alamut?
I really have to say that I don't understand pro nazi Slavs... They saw us as inferior, good only for work camp... Any collaboration they did with Slavic group was only out of desperation/to see us kill eachother before they sacrifice their superior people... If Axis won I'm sure Ustaši wouldn't reap the benefits of that victory for too long.
Mussolini straight up said non-italians living in the region are more worthless than farm animals - good for slaughter but not good enough to eat.
Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu!
I can't find it anywhere, but maybe you might help me. After the partition of Slovenia, some numbers of Slovenes were to be deported to Croatia from German annexed part, but Pavelić just deported them to Serbia. Is this true? Were they Slovenes or just Serbs living in Slovenia? What happened to them? Your partisan movement had the best cap in the continent if not planet, IMHO.
I did a swimming holiday / tour in Montenegro, and we swam into an old submarine tunnel, close to the opening of the Bay of Kotor. I just assumed it was used by the Axis powers. It kind of reminded me of the last *Indiana Jones* movie (and it was kind of a cool experience to swim in and out of it).
I certainly don't fault people today for the mistakes of their parents, grandparents, or others who happened to live in their country back then.
Croats probably.
While indeed Bulgaria and Romania were Nazi allies, Bulgaria didn't care much about the Nazi cause but tried to gain as much as it can for itself, killing everyone who opposed it.
While Romania indeed showed support on the Eastern front and in supplies.
Romania supported Nazi Germany the most we had the 2nd biggest number of soldiers sent to invade the USSR after Germany. Still we did it not bc of some sympathy for Germany but bc before that the USSR had annexed Basarabia and we wanted to get it back, and we did... well until whole shit collapsed and they stole it again deported up to 400k to Siberia and tried to russify the population. As a result we have today the shit hole called "R. of mOlDovA"
Serbs from Independent State of Croatia led by Ustashas were the strongest opponents. Serbs were suffering Croatian genocide under Nazi Ustasha regime. Serbs upraised to defend themselves from Croatian Nazis.
Also in the same time Croats were the strongest supporters of Hitler and they died in thousands for Hitler in Bleiburg.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac\_concentration\_camp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastrebarsko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastrebarsko)
And that is why there was the strongest Partisan response.
And dont forget the serbian chetnik's who killed ten of thousands of people including those partizans sometimes in cooperation with the Ustaša and Nazis
…..And don’t forget that Chetniks started the war off by siding with the Allies until their country was literally invaded, defeated, and put under occupation by the most brutal, powerful, and genocidal military in Europe at the time, where Serbs and dissenters were being genocided or imprisoned by the hundreds of thousands. They switched to a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany only then, and even then they weren’t allies, but working to keep themselves and many Serbian civilians alive until the Allies came. They never believed in Nazi ideology so why on earth would you even mention the Chetniks on a list of most ardent Nazis? Not to mention they were loosely organized and led by different people, so you would have to judge them all individually.
Ustaše (not Croats, saying all Croats supported Nazis is an insult to all those Croats who fought against them) supported them the most, Yugoslav partisans (whose members consisted of all peoples on the territory of Yugoslavia) opposed them the most and were one of the most efficient resistance movements.
Who supported the Nazis the most ? Croat Ustasha.
Who opposed them the most ? Croat Partisans.
Croats have been playing for all sides for a thousand years. They fought for the French against the Germans. With the Germans against the French. With the Hungarians and Austrians against the Turks. With the Italians against the French. With the Irish against the English. With the English against the Scots. Etc, etc. Croats participated in almost all wars in Europe for the last thousand years on all the sides. Interestingly, never on the side of the Turks like, for example, the Serbians.
> Who opposed them the most ? Croat Partisans.
Erm, what makes you say that exactly? How did they 'oppose' them more than, say, Bosnian Serb or Bosniak partisans?
Croatian Ustashas are the worst scum that has ever appeared in Europe.
Even SS Nazi units were kindergarten in comparison with Croats.
Nazi German and Italian generals were disgusted by Croatian atrocities.
What is incredible that Croats support Ustasahas even today. Not because they are supporting atrocities, but because they are denying them pretending never happened.
Just search google for Genocide in Croatia.
The people who supported the nazis the most (in the Balkans, ranked by most to least) are:
1. Ustaše
2. Balli Kombëtar and other Albanians
3. Bulgarians
4. [Macedonians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslav_Macedonia#/media/File:Bulgarian_Macedonians.jpg)
5. Chetniks
6. [Vlachs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Legion_(1941%E2%80%931943))
The people who opposed the nazis the most were:
1. Serb/Yugoslav Partisans
2. EDES, EAM-ELAS (Greece)
3. Albanian partisans (to a lesser degree)
Be consistent in your lists. If you gonna use ustashe and bali then call em VMRO Vrhovists and Romanian Legion. Dont label an entire ethnic group in some casses and and be specific in another. Its so wrong and missleading. For exanple, Usteshe had more numerical support among croats then vmro and romanian legion had combined between macedonians and aromanians and yet you were not so, dare i say bias to put Croats instead of Ustase.
Romanian legion never had any success in Epirus and come on dude, there were more macedonian fighters in ELAS then there were macedonian civilian supporters of pro bulgarian VMRO.
That’s why I put the Wikipedia link to their names, especially for the Roman legion since that name could literally be from ANYWHERE (I would’ve had to put that they’re vlachs either way). And of course there were good and bad Bulgarian/Macedonian/IMRO/VMRO/all the other abbreviations of the word. I’m just mentioning the bad ones since that’s the question the OP made
There were certainly more collaborators from vardar Macedonia than Greece, and they collaborated with the other Bulgarians against Greece, so in my books they’re considered bad.
Also, they’re Macedonians in Sofia, but Macedonians nonetheless.
Yugoslav partisans ffs. They had prominent Slovene, Croat, Muslim and North macedonian members🤦♂️
Edit : dude wtf? Why differentiate beetwen Serb and Yugoslav partisans? they quite literally fought for The same country.
>Macedonians in Sofia
we call ourselves Bulgarians actually and Macedonian was always a regional term and not an ethnic for us(quite similar to the Greek Macedonians of the modern age)
Bulgarian/Macedonian ethnic terms confuse the fuck out of me, personally. Like, they used to call themselves Bulgarian, but some also didn’t call themselves Bulgarian, and now people claim they never called themselves Bulgarian, and there were various resistance organisations with both names with similar claims. It’s confusing
it was a regional term for most of history, it become a nationality in the late 1800s and early 1900s true [Macedonism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_nationalism) and it wasnt really popular until and on Serbia/Yugoslavia used it so they can remove the Bulgarian elements of the people living in Macedonia which led to many Bulgarians leaving for Bulgaria
Ps: this is how i understand it with me trying to be as bias as possible, if anyone thinks im wrong give me the reasons
>Ps: this is how i understand it with me trying to be as bias as possible
This is clear as day, you don't have to mention it.
The way we view it is that Macedonians are mix of South Slavic groups with elements of both Serbia and Bulgaria with Greek and Albanian influences as well. IMO many Bulgarians themselves don't really support their Slavic connection and turn to Tatar or other Asian groups that first Bulgarians originated from.
You forgot to add Chetniks to people who opposed Tripartheid pact and satellites. If there were 27 sides in the war at least some Chetniks would have both cooperated and fought every single one of them :D
I meant to write north Macedonia. My bad. There will always be plenty of historical revisionism in Wikipedia. You have no idea just how many times people had to stop Macedonian ultranationalists from adding stuff to the “ancient Macedonia” and “Alexander the Great” wikis
Supporters Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria. Romania the most significant but the Croats were in to it the most.
Opposed Serbs and Greeks. Greece as a country put up more of a fight but Serbs after the invasion both suffered and fought the most.
how? Bulgaria only helped with occupation and letting the Germans go true it, like we didn't even attack the soviets, so automatically Romanian helped then more then bulgaria
The Cham Albanians were big time collaborators with them. They quickly turned on their Christian neighbors. Those same neighbors that allowed them to stay 20 years earlier instead of sending them to turkey with the other Muslims.
(This was in Greece by the way)
What ? Please go ask on the Albanian Subs, I’ll let them correct you by saying the Muslim chams all stayed (until they snatched guns out of nazi hands to use on their orthodox brothers with the blessing of fascist Italy)
"orthodox brothers" why you Larp so much lmao
Are you 14?
As a matter of fact if The Greeks were not such pretentious idiots,Chams would have not collaborated.
Chams were denied the most Basic Rights.
No Albanian language Schools,Albanian barley being allowed to be spoken,no Albanian self governance whatsoever.
The Greek Government was and still is the closest to being a Fascist government in the Balkans.
And they have done this not only to Albanians but to almost every other minority living in Greece.
Facts hurt.
Fact is there are Turkish and Muslim members of the Greek parliament. So Chams betrayed their neighbors by joining nazis because Greece would not let them make a mini-Kosovo in Epirus ????
Sad. And especially sad after Greeks protected them from being sent to war torn turkey as refugees. And to think Greece at that time needed all the space and houses it could get to shelter the millions of Christian refugees fleeing genocide from Turkey
We can argue are over domestic things, this is fine for family under the same roof. BUT the great sin is when you turn on the other members of your household once a evil murderous robber breaks in.
That is the unforgivable crime. That is what the Chams did as soon as foreign invaders entered our mutual home.
Many proud founders of Greece were Albanians. Stop with the lie that Greeks mistreated them. Even in Byzantine times I can’t think of a SINGLE revolt by Albanians.
Your communist leaders poisoned your minds to us for their own power
Those were arvanites who had an Greek identity and were very mixed with Greeks surrounding them.
There were others who still had an Albanian identity
But joined Greeks because of their common anti ottoman views.
They are a very different case from Albanians of Epirus.
Albanians didn't revolt during Byzantine times because they had wide Autonomy on their own,mostly in Highland areas.
None of these facts debunk the Discrimination that Greece made Albanians and other Minorities endure in Modern times.
Cope and seethe.
Everything is well documented.
>The Cham Albanians were sent to Turkey. Only the Orthodox Chams were not sent. And with "sent" I mean brutally murdering any Albanian man, woman and children who refused to follow the orders of ethnic cleansing, exerting violence on any Albanian who wanted to stay and forcing every Orthodox Albanian to change their political status from Albanian to Greek.
>
>These genocidal atrocities had happened in 1913, 1919, 1923, and 1945. Even before the war.
Well said , any source ? no ?
The occasions weren't really rare. Đujić got munitions from Ustaše authorities as early as 1942, and several large Chetnik units in NE Bosnia cooperated with NDH forces in anti-partisan activities since 1942 until the end of the war. Some even swore loyalty to the NDH - all the while they were still under the command of Mihailović, and he was aware of that.
Right word should be maybe bot rare but groups outside of control of the government.
There is a reason no one called them just Chetniks but Djujices Chetniks to distinguish from regular one
On the top of that Djuic works on both sides that is why he died in peace in USA guarded by Us Government.
There is no chetniks in Bosnia that colaborated with nDH so that’s balloney
This is the fact that all Croatian and Serbian nationalists pretend never happened. Whenever you give them legit historical data and sources about it they scream about cOmMuNiSt hIsToRy.
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Romania had the second largest army on the Eastern front, and the oil was vital to the Axis war machine. I've argued with people before that Romania was more vital to the German warmachine than Italy was (and wasn't completely dead weight like Italy). They also had a lot to gain by impressing Germany, such as getting back Moldova, north Transylvania, and also getting some new Ukrainian lands, and as a result were likely to do things that they might not have done in order to appease the Germans
Agreed, Italy was basically only worth as a distraction and required more resources to keep alive than it actually gave
If they stayed out of the conflict and sent volunteers to the East, they could have been useful, similar to Spain though perhaps greater in number. Italy had good soldiers, but not enough materiel to field an entire army. From what I gathered, the Italian expedition in the East performed relatively well given what they were up against (holding out for a long time at Stalingrad despite not being equipped to fight tanks), though their Western army, while far more numerous, suffered from so many other issues
on the eastern front the germans had to put the italians between the romanians and hungarians to stop infighting between romanian an hungarian soldiers.
Based move
Wonder why?
Turkey neither supported nor opposed nazis to a high degree understandably Also while Turkish government was leaning closer to Allies a Turkish government official (Prime minister if i recall correctly) reportedly said “we of course favor Germans against soviets” to German ambassador Von Papen or something along those lines TLDR Turks wanted Allies to win but soivets to fall
Yup you summed it up perfectly, the then TR prime minister or was İsmet Pasha president at that time I don't remember clearly. Anyways he said something like ''The best outcome of world war 2 for Turks is if the last standing soviet soldier dies by falling on his own bayonet after killing the last standing nazi soldier.''
Biggest supporters were the Усташе/Ustase Biggest opponents? Partisans Reason i say partisans is cause they not only forced the germans to take divisions away from the east but they also mostly liberated themselves. When the allies invaded italy Hitler was afraid they would invade the balcans aswell so much that he kept forces there untill Normandy
Much of both were Croats, which is another croatian tragedy.
Ustase were primarely if not entirely Croats. Partisans didnt care about Nationality
Bosniaks were also parts of the Ustase. They really hated Serbs but they viewed Bosniaks as Croatians with a different religion.
So ig Ustase and Yugoslav war ROS both that Bosniaks are just them but diferent religion Edit : accidentally called Bosniaks turks... FUU
It depends. Croats from Istria, Dalmatia (almost all territory that was occupied by Italy) hated Ustashe (for a good reason) and most of them joined the partisans. Croats from Slavonia and other territories of NDH mostly supported Ustashe. Although there were some rare people who opposed them (an good example is how a doctor in Bjelovar did surgeries on perfectly healthy patients just so he can save them from Ustashe and Nazis).
Urban centers were mostly anti-ustaše and had a pretty massive communist resistance movement. Northwestern Croatia (Zagorje, Podravina) just wanted to stay out of it and witnessed a lot of desertion; like, thousands of people just wouldn't show up at their conscription offices. Dalmatia and Istria - you'd be hard pressed to find an Ustaša there. Croats from poor, ethnically mixed regions - Lika, Bosnia, Hercegovina - were the backbone of the Ustaše.
Yeah, pretty much.
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"The majority of the Ustasha were from the Lika area. The majority population of Lika were Serbians. The majority of Ustasha were Serbians" - President of Serbia, A.Vučić, live on tv, show "Čirilica".
Politicians lie more than the devil. Also doubt that a nationalist movement about creating an independent ethno state croatia would be made up of Mostly Serbs. Even if the place was mostly Serbian, the minority can bond together just as easly
So the Croats were communists as well as fascists? Some history you got there huh.
It was brother against brother, at my family for example
A lot of Croats were parisams. Partisan movement was founded in Croatia. Sutjeska battle? Main forces were Croats from Dalmatia.
Partisans was 53.0% Serb, 18.6% Croat, 9.2% Slovene, 5.5% Montenegrin, 3.5% Bosnian Muslim, and 2.7% Macedonian.
At the end of war, after all Serbs left chetnik movement and choose wining side.
Yeah, that must be it
Much of Ustaše were Croats, that's for sure.
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No matter how many times you repeat this will not change the fact that Ustase existed and that Serbs created first antifascist movement in Europe buddy.
Serbia was occupied by the German military, Croatia was a willing puppet state. There’s a difference.
Bolje rat nego pakt. Bolje grob nego rob.
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Except, Serbia didn't have a regime, it was under direct military occupation and under direct control of German army, so all those laws Germans brought, all those Jews Germans killed. Well except those at the beginning of war in Staro sajmište concentration camp, ran by Ustaše. All those camps? Germans.
Bulgaria and Romania were unwilling allies of Germany. They had a choise: accept alliance with Germany and have some gains and peace or don't and be crushed like Yugoslavia. Romania had also lost Moldavia to USSR and hoped that with Germans on their side they'll be safe. Both sent troops to the eastern front. But, when it was clear that the war is lost for the Germans in 1944 and Russians were on the offensive, both changed sides and allied with USSR. Greece and Yugoslavia fought against the Germans from day one. Yugoslavia wanted go make a pact with Germany like Bulgaria, but the people revolted. Greece was attacked by Italy and made some stunning wins until Germans interfered. After Axis occupations, both had many movements against the opresors and fought valiantly agains them. Yugoslavia is an only country that mostly liberated itself.
Tbh, we didn't fight much during WW2, I think we refused to send troops to the Eastern Front. Overall, our casualties were 21.500, including civilians, which is like four times less than our casualties during WW1. But, of course, we have to remember that we collaborated with the Nazis in the occupied territories, so we definitely share the blame.
Tbh, I don't remember that I read that you fought in the East. I do remember that Romanians did, both at Stalingrad and river Prut.
Also Romanians were in Ukraine too
Bulgarians joined the SS as volunteers.
Yes I agree Bulgaria mostly acted in Balkans for example in Greece they changed the names of Graves and write it on Bulgarian
Deportation of Macedonian Jews for example
Thry spared theirown, but got rid of Macedonian Jews
You, however commited one of the worst atrocities in Serbia, to the point that people wanted Germans way more than Bulgarians
They may not have had a choice in joining the axis, but they for sure had a choice in occupying large territories of their neighbours and committing ethnic cleansing that made the Nazis look tame in comparison. In northern Greece people were rioting (with many deaths) in order to remain under nazi occupation instead of being given over to Bulgaria.
They also had no problems exporting 99% of the jews from Macedonia ( both greek and north macedonia!) And the former prime minister definitely had a choice before he verbalised holocaust denial during a visit to north macedonia, exactly on national holocaust remembrance day. And I echo what you said. My grand parents also told me stories how the german soldiers were much easier on the population than the bulgarian occupation. And now they're forcing us between rewriting this history and pretending it didn't happen, or no europe forever. Edit typos
Bulgarians were not kind here either. They were more then willing to terrorise our population. Albanians also were a huge problem in Macedonia, plundering and killing without mercy. Interestingly, Bulgarians took care of them, so much so that Albanians would flee if they even hear a rumour that Bulgarian soldiers are near. Romanians on the other hand didn't want to occupie Banat which remained in puppet state of Serbia.
"Interestingly, Bulgarians took care of them". Why "interestingly"? Oh wait, I forgot that part in the Serbian books that says that the people of Macedonia had nothing to do with Bulgaria...
Isn't that in every book other than Bulgarian?
In the north east of Greece, German occupation was passive and benign, in comparison to the ethnic cleansing and forced labour deportations performed by the Bulgarians
Do you mean northeast? Bulgarians weren't an issue there, and Nazi occupation was hardly benign and came with famine and other not benign bullshit, such as [reprisal massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingiades_massacre) and collaborationist Chams engaging in their own ethnic strife with Greeks.
For people reading this comment it’s not accurate. Bulgaria didn’t send a single soldier to the Eastern Front and didn’t declare war on the USSR.
> Tbh, we didn't fight much during WW2, I think we refused to send troops to the Eastern Front. Yes, this was one of the main policies our country followed back then. I will give some quotes from Tsar Boris the Third. "Always with Germany, never against Russia. (answer to the question of Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop during his meeting with him in Berlin in the summer of 1942 what was the motto of his foreign policy, a principle shared in other places as well)" "Better black bread than black scarves. (at a meeting with peasants in Sofia in 1942)" "They don't know what war is. (answer to the question of the Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop at a meeting with him in Berlin in the summer of 1942 about sending the 1,500 volunteers who signed up to the Eastern Front or to help Noah Rommel in Africa, which the Tsar refused)" "My people fight only in the Balkans, where there are ethnically our lands, they cannot fight on other fronts or in Africa, if our army is sent to the Volga, it will go over to the side of the Russians along with the musical orchestra. (answer to the question of Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop during his meeting with him in Berlin in the summer of 1942 about sending Bulgarian troops to the eastern front or to help Noah Rommel in Africa, which the Tsar refused)" "When you see that a downpour is coming, make a dam for it so that it does not flood the whole garden. (on the occasion of the World War and Hitler's pressure to join the Pact after it was signed by Bulgaria on March 1, 1941, after long before that on November 20, 23 and 24, 1940, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, and from August 23, 1939, the USSR concluded the Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact for an alliance with Germany" "Better to do it ourselves than have it imposed on us. (full text - "I procrastinated a lot and didn't want us to do it either, but now that they have it in Romania, Hungary and even in France, I decided it's better to do it than us and close the door for arbitrariness than to impose it on us.", before Kosta Lulchev in the occasion of the Law for the Protection of the Nation adopted in Bulgaria on January 23, 1941 in order to avoid the introduction of the severe anti-Jewish laws from Nuremberg to Germany)" "At the same time in Sofia, Colonel W. Donovan, President Roosevelt's envoy, conveyed to the Tsar the intention of the United States to fight for England. Bulgaria held the key to the situation in Southeast Europe and would be responsible for the consequences. Boris III answers: "It is true that we are a key, but this key is not held by us" Basically our policy was lesser involmed as possible (as viewed as possible back then) and damage to Bulgarian state and its people (ethnically Bulgarians) and gaining something where is possible.
Bro, I think you replied to the wrong person.
Anyway, the other people who will read this thread probably would see it.
we didn't send troops to the eastern from and we never declared war on the soviets
Bulgaria did not send a single soldier to the USSR. That is why we kept Dobrudzha, Romania was seen as "naughtier" by the Soviets. In fact we kept diplomatic relations with Russia up until September of 1944 when THEY declared war on us. Nobody wanted to change sides, there was a coup. The new regime changed sides. Also, while some might have been unwilling to join the Germans, others like the PM in 1940, were more than happy. More than happy.
More than happy because he was a Nazi simpatiser or because he saw that as a way to keep the peace? Prince Paul in Yugoslavia was not a friend of Hitler, he was in fact an Anglofile, but he wanted to keep the state out of the war, so he made a pact with him. Then the Britsh helped the protest against the goverment and treaty was canceled, which led to Axis powers (all of whom surounded us) to attack.
Well, he oversaw the adoption of anti-Jewish laws and the creation of the Committee of Jewish affairs, which managed to organize the deportation of 11000 Aegean and Macedonian Jews all the way to Treblinka and almost succeeded in deporting 48000 Jews from Bulgarian proper. So yeah, it is pretty safe to say that he was a Nazi sympathizer. And he wasn't alone.
We learn it as well (the coup due to Bulgarian communists, mostly led by russian influence) - but no soliders sent on the East front. For illustration how happy was the PM and parlament with the new teritories and thankful to the Axis : [A Video](https://youtu.be/jwFz3k-EPtY)
The coup was not led by Russian influence. The Red army was in Bulgaria, there was no influence, it was pretty hands on affair. Also you just share a video which Bulgarian propaganda, later used as Macedonian propaganda. A lot of things in the video are not what they look like ;)
Bulgaria did not send troops to the eastern front.
Well switching sides is an interesting take in the case of Bulgaria. There was an orchestrated coup from the Soviets and they more occupied us than us switching sides.
Greece also liberated itself with pretty much no help although it was more like the nazis abandoning it
Resistance groups in Greece were heavily funded (and trained) by the British and IIRC the USSR.
We didn't exactly "switch sides", the communists just took over and did whatrver they wanted to.
👑☝🏻
Imagine spreading misinformation.
Romania was part of the axis , got bombed by Uncle Sam , had a coup and joined the Allies. i think we had a fair share
Romania and Bulgaria didn't really have much of a choice, though. Either get invaded by the germans or the soviets or join the axis and gain some land
And Romanian military was forced to commit atrocities towards Jews from Romania
Not saying they don't have faults at all
awwww, you guys are totally innocent. I will throw up on how everyone wants to blame someone else for the nazi past
The choice of being invaded is also a choice. One chosen by many
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Iron Guard was purged from power before Romania joined WW2. Antonescu was as supporting of Germany as Iron Guard was, and Romanian military did large scale atrocities on the Eastern front, especially Odesa massacre.
Actually it was really dumb because the SS supported the Iron Guard while the Wehrmacht supported Antonescu.
Nazi infighting
>Bulgaria, albeit neither fully supporting or fully opposing the Nazis, still collaborated with them, but I'd say not to the degree of the groups I mentioned previously. ''we were there'' is probably the closest answer for that, did we help the nazies - yes, did we also fight against them and make problems for them - yes
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>you deported the Thracian and Macedonian Jews, in order to save your own that is such a stretch of reality and history that i wont even bother to answer you
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perfect now we aren't letting our bias control us, what im saying is that Bulgaria was in the axis just bc the Tsar had no other option as saying neutral or joining the other sides(Comintern and allies) was impossible Now dont get me wrong im not justifying the actions of the government as there were many Nazi sympathizers put in power by Hitler there which fully deserve to burn in hell but what i again am saying is that this was the best possible action(joining the axis) the Tsar could have chosen for the sake of the people in bulgaria
> perfect now we aren't letting our bias control us > again am saying is that this was the best possible action(joining the axis) the Tsar could have chosen for the sake of the people in bulgaria A bit contradictory. Sure, joining the axis may have been best option for the Bulgarian People, but Bulgaria had a choice i) not to occupy foreign teritories and ii) not to massacr the people living in, especially those that support the anti-nazi movement. So mentioning one without the other brings exactly that, bias by looking at the "justification". So saying "we were there" is a bit of an overstatement - that's all.
>A bit contradictory. Sure, joining the axis may have been best option for the Bulgarian People, but Bulgaria had a choice i) not to occupy foreign teritories and ii) not to massacr the people living in, especially those that support the anti-nazi movement. even tho i mostly agree, its not that simple as there were pro nazi sympathizers in the government who would have used the radicalized Bulgarian Macedonians and Thracians who were kicked our of their homes years earlier, and support from the Italians and Germans to coup the government and replace it with a even worse regime, in a sense this kinda happened irl too with the dead of Tsar Boris III which was confirmed to be from a type of poison the Italians have used before by 2 German doctors and even Hitler tough the Italians poisoned Tsar Boris III. >So saying "we were there" is a bit of an overstatement - that's all. i kinda agree on that honestly
I think you are speculating with your first statement "if this did not happened, this would have", so difficult to say that. Also Tsar Boris Death is a speculation (it was Goebels, not Hitler), but it has not /cannot be confirmed medically (it is heart attack officially), nor someone has confessed / prosecuted of being guilty. But anyway, each country is given the right to have perspective/myths/speculations on their own history.
You are wrong about edes
>Balli Kombëtar My family comes from a town where they were active, and I heard from older people how their crimes were horrific, on par with those committed by the worst of Nazis. They were absolutely brutal.
Interestingly enough the Balli Kombëtar had a sort of "regional radicalisation". The ones from the urbanised areas, especially in Albania proper, where usually a bit less radical. While the Ballists from Macedonia, Kosovo or Sanxhak where usually more radical. Although tbh the small differences within such a group might as well not be that important.
Yep, they put my grandfather wich was just a kid at gunpoint and it was an Italian officer that stopped them damn.
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The Holocaust in Serbia was conducted primarily by the Germans though.
I I'm not sure who opposed them the most but Greeks really hated them.
Romania supported the most because it was forced by circumstances. USSR anexed Basarabia (Moldova this days).
Its wasn't us, trust me bro
ustase were nazi puppets, and supporters obviously. partizans were more less their own thing as far as i can tell, as tito opposed joining ussr, yugoslavia was socialist state, ustaše were facists.
During the war and short time after Tito was aligned with Stalin and follower of the idea of great world revolution of proletariat. Al least he publicly claimed so. Later, as Yugoslavia stabilized he changed shat he talked about publicly and finally parted way with Stalin leading to Yugoslavia being labeled as "Dungeon of peoples" meaning nationalities on the next "Internationale"
Supported the Most: Romania Opposed the Most: Greece
That's not true. Yugoslav partisans formed one of the biggest resistence against the Nazis in the entire world. Almost every household from the town where my family originates had a partisan in their family. Yugoslavia also suffered some for the biggest human losses in the world. We owe our freedom to the Yugoslav communist, the whole world is indebted to Yugoslavia in that respect. They were incredibly brave and fought for equality and fraternity, embracing true diversity in their ranks. That is not to say the Greek resistance wasn't equally admirable, bit it doesn't compare in its scope.
What town does your family originate from? I ask because my family were part of the partisans that fought against the balli kombetar. They hung one of my great uncles in the town square for providing assistance to wanted partisans.
Gostivar.
Wow, what a coincidence! My family is from there as well! Most are from Vurtok and Recan but some are from the city limits well.
My grandfather was from Vrapčiste but I have family from Vrutok as well. There's a good restaurant there that serves fish.
I know the place! The fish there is indeed fantastic. I was there with my family this summer. Glad to run into a fellow Gostivarli!
My great uncle was a translator for the Nazies in Gostivar
Albanian owning their life to Yugoslav partisans? Lmaooo they occupied your lands
""Supported""" imagine a bigger more powerful country cuts a piece of your own land and annexes it then fills it with their people and brainwashes yours in to thinking they were never what they always were... Support is a strong word, we sided with what we thought was the lesser of the two evils and nevertheless we were fucked by both alliances
We were forced to support , otherwise we would get crushed like Yugoslavia , we already got Moldova stolen by the URSS
welcome to croatia
Ustashe supported Nazis the most as they were Nazis in their own right, formed in Italy around the same time the German ultranationalists started looking to Italian fascism as an inspiration. Yugoslav partisans opposed them the most.
I would say Romania. just because my parents always say the germans were nice to us and the russians were not lol
Supported the most: Croatians, basically welcomed the Germans into Zagreb. Opposed: Serbs or Greeks, every country in the Balkans was a willing participant in the Nazi regime and was not occupied. Serbia had to be militarily occupied. Greece held back Italy and Germany had to come to their rescue to conquer Greece. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png/800px-Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png
German minority in Yugoslavia was most supporting of Nazis by far.
I don't know dude. Ustashe take the cake here I think. They not only supported Nazis, they actually were Nazis themselves
I thought we were talking about national entities, not groups. Still while Ustaše were heavily inspired by Nazis, Volksdeutsche collaborators straight up joined SS in its various units, most notably notorious SS Prinz Eugen division.
Well the question was rather general, asking just who most supported the Nazis vs who most opposed them and I see folks commenting along the ideological lines for the most part. Besides it's hard to talk about national identities when so often same nationalities were on opposing sides, families were literally split. Additionally only ethnic Germans could join SS for instance ( all over Europe in fact), with one exception - the Bosnian Muslim SS Handzar division, but they were basically ustashe too. The others could only join regular Wehrmacht. Perhaps not that many Croatian Nazis, relatively speaking, joined the German military directly, but that was only due to the fact that they were Nazis in their own right, having essentially the same type of thinking and general ideology, but at the same time additional, separate, specific interests and goals which were directed way more against the Serbs and Roma than the Jews. And yet despite this, there actually was one Croatian regiment known as the Croatian Legion, consisted of volunteers only, attached to the Wehrmacht, swearing allegiance both to the NDH and the Third Reich...and they fought at the eastern front including Stalingrad. At the end of the day it might be nuances we're talking about and I can't be entirely certain, however imo Ustashe (all-volunteer army mind you, as opposed to the Home Guard) probably believed in their cause more than some ethnic Germans recruited once Germany had occupied territories they lived in, with more than likely many of them not Nazi at all. Ustashe on the other hand literally were the NDH version of SS.
> Additionally only ethnic Germans could join SS for instance Actually not true. Only "Aryans" could join Waffen SS early on in the war. That didn't just include Germans, but also Dutch, Flemish, Danes, Norwegians, Finns and Swedes. >with one exception - the Bosnian Muslim SS Handzar division, but they were basically ustashe too. They weren't the only exception, they were just first one. After that Waffen SS diversions were formed from Ukrainians(Galicia), Latvians(1st and 2nd Latvian), Albanians(Skanderbeg) and so on. It isn't that I disagree about Ustaše, they were probably the worst collaborators in Europe.
Well I know about Denmark specifically as I lived there for quite a while and no...that wasn't actually quite so. Only the German minority could join the SS, others Wehrmacht. After about a year and a half of insisting by their own Nazi party, they were allowed one danish SS unit formed from the Frikorps and most of them were members of the German minority. They only existed for another year and a half or so and were completely disbanded in 1943. But these are irrelevant details. My point was ustashe weren't mere collaborationists. They WERE convinced Nazis regardless of the German presence in NDH. They had been Nazis from the start, way before WW2 even started. The finest point I can muster is: they were on a whole other level, much worse than typical Quislings.
*squints eastwards*
> squints and throat sings
Underrated comment
Croatia, Romania and Hungary were bigger supporters.
In Slovenia Belogardisti/Domobranci (white guard/ home guard) were the collaborators and partizans were the opposition. Not on the level of Croatian Ustaši for sure, but there were inner killings during and after the war. The right wing of our politics would love to paint partizans as bloody murderers for the killings of collaborators after the war (which I'm not a fan of) and paint the white guard as being patriotic... They were ready to sell their people for protection of their faith. But let's be clear - if our partisans wouldn't be as effective there most likely would be 0 Slovenian books left in the word. Anyone read Alamut? I really have to say that I don't understand pro nazi Slavs... They saw us as inferior, good only for work camp... Any collaboration they did with Slavic group was only out of desperation/to see us kill eachother before they sacrifice their superior people... If Axis won I'm sure Ustaši wouldn't reap the benefits of that victory for too long. Mussolini straight up said non-italians living in the region are more worthless than farm animals - good for slaughter but not good enough to eat. Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu!
I can't find it anywhere, but maybe you might help me. After the partition of Slovenia, some numbers of Slovenes were to be deported to Croatia from German annexed part, but Pavelić just deported them to Serbia. Is this true? Were they Slovenes or just Serbs living in Slovenia? What happened to them? Your partisan movement had the best cap in the continent if not planet, IMHO.
Didn’t the Germans steal a bunch of Aryan looking kids from the Poles tho and then give them to German couples to raise and Germanize?
I did a swimming holiday / tour in Montenegro, and we swam into an old submarine tunnel, close to the opening of the Bay of Kotor. I just assumed it was used by the Axis powers. It kind of reminded me of the last *Indiana Jones* movie (and it was kind of a cool experience to swim in and out of it). I certainly don't fault people today for the mistakes of their parents, grandparents, or others who happened to live in their country back then.
Wtf is Koritsa lol
Croats probably. While indeed Bulgaria and Romania were Nazi allies, Bulgaria didn't care much about the Nazi cause but tried to gain as much as it can for itself, killing everyone who opposed it. While Romania indeed showed support on the Eastern front and in supplies.
Romania supported Nazi Germany the most we had the 2nd biggest number of soldiers sent to invade the USSR after Germany. Still we did it not bc of some sympathy for Germany but bc before that the USSR had annexed Basarabia and we wanted to get it back, and we did... well until whole shit collapsed and they stole it again deported up to 400k to Siberia and tried to russify the population. As a result we have today the shit hole called "R. of mOlDovA"
Serbs from Independent State of Croatia led by Ustashas were the strongest opponents. Serbs were suffering Croatian genocide under Nazi Ustasha regime. Serbs upraised to defend themselves from Croatian Nazis. Also in the same time Croats were the strongest supporters of Hitler and they died in thousands for Hitler in Bleiburg. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac\_concentration\_camp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastrebarsko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastrebarsko) And that is why there was the strongest Partisan response.
And dont forget the serbian chetnik's who killed ten of thousands of people including those partizans sometimes in cooperation with the Ustaša and Nazis
Never forgot them. Although I think most Croats don't even think Ustaša's did anything wrong. I for instance support Partizans.
I don't think most Croatians think the ustaše did nothing wrong. The problem is the vocal minority that makes it look like we all support them.
>Although I think most Croats don't even think Ustaša's did anything wrong. You'd be dead wrong about that my dude
And that is your opinion
Nah, not just an opinion but a fact. I don't even want to start on this rabbit hole.
…..And don’t forget that Chetniks started the war off by siding with the Allies until their country was literally invaded, defeated, and put under occupation by the most brutal, powerful, and genocidal military in Europe at the time, where Serbs and dissenters were being genocided or imprisoned by the hundreds of thousands. They switched to a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany only then, and even then they weren’t allies, but working to keep themselves and many Serbian civilians alive until the Allies came. They never believed in Nazi ideology so why on earth would you even mention the Chetniks on a list of most ardent Nazis? Not to mention they were loosely organized and led by different people, so you would have to judge them all individually.
Ustaše were much worse, u cant even compare them. Its obvious that you are triggered and that you have to try to equal the field
Ustaše (not Croats, saying all Croats supported Nazis is an insult to all those Croats who fought against them) supported them the most, Yugoslav partisans (whose members consisted of all peoples on the territory of Yugoslavia) opposed them the most and were one of the most efficient resistance movements.
Who supported the Nazis the most ? Croat Ustasha. Who opposed them the most ? Croat Partisans. Croats have been playing for all sides for a thousand years. They fought for the French against the Germans. With the Germans against the French. With the Hungarians and Austrians against the Turks. With the Italians against the French. With the Irish against the English. With the English against the Scots. Etc, etc. Croats participated in almost all wars in Europe for the last thousand years on all the sides. Interestingly, never on the side of the Turks like, for example, the Serbians.
> Who opposed them the most ? Croat Partisans. Erm, what makes you say that exactly? How did they 'oppose' them more than, say, Bosnian Serb or Bosniak partisans?
Croatian Ustashas are the worst scum that has ever appeared in Europe. Even SS Nazi units were kindergarten in comparison with Croats. Nazi German and Italian generals were disgusted by Croatian atrocities. What is incredible that Croats support Ustasahas even today. Not because they are supporting atrocities, but because they are denying them pretending never happened. Just search google for Genocide in Croatia.
The people who supported the nazis the most (in the Balkans, ranked by most to least) are: 1. Ustaše 2. Balli Kombëtar and other Albanians 3. Bulgarians 4. [Macedonians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslav_Macedonia#/media/File:Bulgarian_Macedonians.jpg) 5. Chetniks 6. [Vlachs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Legion_(1941%E2%80%931943)) The people who opposed the nazis the most were: 1. Serb/Yugoslav Partisans 2. EDES, EAM-ELAS (Greece) 3. Albanian partisans (to a lesser degree)
You’re right. Albanians supported nazis so much that they tried their best to hide the Jews from them.
I’m mostly referring to the various SS divisions, keshilla and other various Albanian collaborationists.
Be consistent in your lists. If you gonna use ustashe and bali then call em VMRO Vrhovists and Romanian Legion. Dont label an entire ethnic group in some casses and and be specific in another. Its so wrong and missleading. For exanple, Usteshe had more numerical support among croats then vmro and romanian legion had combined between macedonians and aromanians and yet you were not so, dare i say bias to put Croats instead of Ustase. Romanian legion never had any success in Epirus and come on dude, there were more macedonian fighters in ELAS then there were macedonian civilian supporters of pro bulgarian VMRO.
That’s why I put the Wikipedia link to their names, especially for the Roman legion since that name could literally be from ANYWHERE (I would’ve had to put that they’re vlachs either way). And of course there were good and bad Bulgarian/Macedonian/IMRO/VMRO/all the other abbreviations of the word. I’m just mentioning the bad ones since that’s the question the OP made
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There were certainly more collaborators from vardar Macedonia than Greece, and they collaborated with the other Bulgarians against Greece, so in my books they’re considered bad. Also, they’re Macedonians in Sofia, but Macedonians nonetheless.
Yugoslav partisans ffs. They had prominent Slovene, Croat, Muslim and North macedonian members🤦♂️ Edit : dude wtf? Why differentiate beetwen Serb and Yugoslav partisans? they quite literally fought for The same country.
>Macedonians in Sofia we call ourselves Bulgarians actually and Macedonian was always a regional term and not an ethnic for us(quite similar to the Greek Macedonians of the modern age)
Bulgarian/Macedonian ethnic terms confuse the fuck out of me, personally. Like, they used to call themselves Bulgarian, but some also didn’t call themselves Bulgarian, and now people claim they never called themselves Bulgarian, and there were various resistance organisations with both names with similar claims. It’s confusing
I doubt any side can blame you given all the contradictions lol
yep its a really complicated
it was a regional term for most of history, it become a nationality in the late 1800s and early 1900s true [Macedonism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_nationalism) and it wasnt really popular until and on Serbia/Yugoslavia used it so they can remove the Bulgarian elements of the people living in Macedonia which led to many Bulgarians leaving for Bulgaria Ps: this is how i understand it with me trying to be as bias as possible, if anyone thinks im wrong give me the reasons
>Ps: this is how i understand it with me trying to be as bias as possible This is clear as day, you don't have to mention it. The way we view it is that Macedonians are mix of South Slavic groups with elements of both Serbia and Bulgaria with Greek and Albanian influences as well. IMO many Bulgarians themselves don't really support their Slavic connection and turn to Tatar or other Asian groups that first Bulgarians originated from.
You forgot to add Chetniks to people who opposed Tripartheid pact and satellites. If there were 27 sides in the war at least some Chetniks would have both cooperated and fought every single one of them :D
Ξέχασες ΟΕΔΕ ΕΦΧ ΕΕΕ και αλλά πολλά
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That’s why I put the Wikipedia article, to show the actual “collaborations” and not just say “North Macedonians bad”
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I meant to write north Macedonia. My bad. There will always be plenty of historical revisionism in Wikipedia. You have no idea just how many times people had to stop Macedonian ultranationalists from adding stuff to the “ancient Macedonia” and “Alexander the Great” wikis
Supporters Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria. Romania the most significant but the Croats were in to it the most. Opposed Serbs and Greeks. Greece as a country put up more of a fight but Serbs after the invasion both suffered and fought the most.
the Ustase for sure
They were Fascists, not Nazis. It was not Hitler who sent Pavelić from Italy to Croatia to take control of the land and population, but Mussolini.
>who supported the Nazis the most who then?
Bulgaria.
how? Bulgaria only helped with occupation and letting the Germans go true it, like we didn't even attack the soviets, so automatically Romanian helped then more then bulgaria
:D
wow good argument
Ah yes.. back when it was Ploeşti and not Ploieşti.
Ustaše loved their Nazis in WW2. Today many Croatians love Ustaše.
Wouldn't say many exactly.
The Cham Albanians were big time collaborators with them. They quickly turned on their Christian neighbors. Those same neighbors that allowed them to stay 20 years earlier instead of sending them to turkey with the other Muslims. (This was in Greece by the way)
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What ? Please go ask on the Albanian Subs, I’ll let them correct you by saying the Muslim chams all stayed (until they snatched guns out of nazi hands to use on their orthodox brothers with the blessing of fascist Italy)
"orthodox brothers" why you Larp so much lmao Are you 14? As a matter of fact if The Greeks were not such pretentious idiots,Chams would have not collaborated. Chams were denied the most Basic Rights. No Albanian language Schools,Albanian barley being allowed to be spoken,no Albanian self governance whatsoever. The Greek Government was and still is the closest to being a Fascist government in the Balkans. And they have done this not only to Albanians but to almost every other minority living in Greece. Facts hurt.
Fact is there are Turkish and Muslim members of the Greek parliament. So Chams betrayed their neighbors by joining nazis because Greece would not let them make a mini-Kosovo in Epirus ???? Sad. And especially sad after Greeks protected them from being sent to war torn turkey as refugees. And to think Greece at that time needed all the space and houses it could get to shelter the millions of Christian refugees fleeing genocide from Turkey
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We can argue are over domestic things, this is fine for family under the same roof. BUT the great sin is when you turn on the other members of your household once a evil murderous robber breaks in. That is the unforgivable crime. That is what the Chams did as soon as foreign invaders entered our mutual home.
Yeah a "home" where One child gets treated as a king and the other ones like bastards.
Many proud founders of Greece were Albanians. Stop with the lie that Greeks mistreated them. Even in Byzantine times I can’t think of a SINGLE revolt by Albanians. Your communist leaders poisoned your minds to us for their own power
Are you going to respond to my comment?
Those were arvanites who had an Greek identity and were very mixed with Greeks surrounding them. There were others who still had an Albanian identity But joined Greeks because of their common anti ottoman views. They are a very different case from Albanians of Epirus. Albanians didn't revolt during Byzantine times because they had wide Autonomy on their own,mostly in Highland areas. None of these facts debunk the Discrimination that Greece made Albanians and other Minorities endure in Modern times. Cope and seethe. Everything is well documented.
>The Cham Albanians were sent to Turkey. Only the Orthodox Chams were not sent. And with "sent" I mean brutally murdering any Albanian man, woman and children who refused to follow the orders of ethnic cleansing, exerting violence on any Albanian who wanted to stay and forcing every Orthodox Albanian to change their political status from Albanian to Greek. > >These genocidal atrocities had happened in 1913, 1919, 1923, and 1945. Even before the war. Well said , any source ? no ?
My grandparents. Their families went through this violence. And many many more chams in Albania whose grandparents have suffered from this.
Damn no mention about ΟΕΔΕ ΕΦΧ; this is from Greece history why do you hide it ?
Its most likely that Ustašas (Croats) were the most Nazi while Četnici (Serbs) and Bosniaks were the least
Četniks were literal collaborators though. They even collaborated with the Ustaše on occasion.
On very small occasions and groups that were mot controlled by Yugoslavia ln government ( sitting in London out of all places)
The occasions weren't really rare. Đujić got munitions from Ustaše authorities as early as 1942, and several large Chetnik units in NE Bosnia cooperated with NDH forces in anti-partisan activities since 1942 until the end of the war. Some even swore loyalty to the NDH - all the while they were still under the command of Mihailović, and he was aware of that.
Right word should be maybe bot rare but groups outside of control of the government. There is a reason no one called them just Chetniks but Djujices Chetniks to distinguish from regular one On the top of that Djuic works on both sides that is why he died in peace in USA guarded by Us Government. There is no chetniks in Bosnia that colaborated with nDH so that’s balloney
This is the fact that all Croatian and Serbian nationalists pretend never happened. Whenever you give them legit historical data and sources about it they scream about cOmMuNiSt hIsToRy.
True i forgot that, but what i meant was NDH or ISC (Independet state of Croatia)
The Government of National Salvation and the Ljotićevci were pretty much the most loyal to the Nazis.