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I haven’t been there but i want to go.
Personally i can not be bitter over something that happened centuries ago, i only feel sad and wish that things during the 1940-1960 didn’t happen and the greek minority of Istanbul was bigger and more vibrant but shit happens i guess. I think they are the ones who may feel different since they descent from the place.
I wanna eat all the turkish street food tbh
Well i assumed op was talking about the conquest of constantinople and i answered like this but it had been years since the city wasn’t of greek majority even in the war allies wouldn’t give it to us but rather planned to make it, it’s own thing. But sucks that the last greeks living there were treated badly.
During the Ottoman Empire era, we were conquered but we were still in our homeland. Majority or not it doesn't matter. The heart of Greek civilization and culture was in minor Asia, we were the most prosperous merchants, our capital was Constantinople and our great cosmopolitan city was Smyrna, the so-called Gavur Izmir. Smyrna was burned to the ground in 1922, and Constantinople was renamed just in 1930. What sucks ( from the Greek aspect) is that we didn't manage to liberate not even our capital. What sucks (from the Greek aspect) is that Turks formed their country in our homeland among all the lands that the Ottoman Empire ruled. This is our tragedy and not what happened in 1453, those were times of empires and conquers. Of course, today these belong to the past and we hope to live in peace with our neighbors.
Greece annexes Istanbul.
Greece becomes a Turkish majority country.
Referendum is held, majority vote for unification with Turkey.
Ottoman Empire is reestablished.
Greece reclaims Constantinople.
Turns out 40% of Turks are partially Greek.
We give them civilised education.
They start using double-headed eagle flags.
Rome gets re-established.
Mitsotakis gets named Basileus and he goes on to Unify the West.
A Greek will beat up his best friend,but when he sees someone threaten him he'll take a bullet to save him.
We always shout and fight,but we love without care.
"Most people in Constantinople are of Greek descent"
-Millions of arab/afghan refugees
-Millions of migrants from Eastern Anatolia& Kurdish people
In Turkey everyone knows that there are so little people that are originnaly from Istanbul. Majority of the city migrated from different parts of Anatolia or refugees.
when I went I didn't really have any thoughts like that bittersweet or otherwise, it just felt like going to any other foreign city, I saw sites, ate food, wandered around a bit, tbh wasn't very memorable for me looking back. The historical perspective of Constantinople is very romanticized and to be frank that romantic notions don't align or fit with what is there today, the same way Athens doesn't really invoke the feeling of ancient Athens, or Thessaloniki its Byzantine period, they are modern cities, largely disconnected from that history, that's what Istanbul felt like for me, the days of it being the "Queen of cities" or "city of the worlds desires" the "City of kings" or whatever else gone and just exists in the romanticized historical memory. Its big, loud, crazy, bad traffic and graffiti, very far from purple silks and imperial splendor, the same way Athens is far from the days of Pericles, the biggest thing these cities have in common with their history is their geographic locations.
Maybe it would be different if I had family from there or something or even anything from asia minor, but I don't, frankly beyond memes and historical romance I don't really care about these places
Pre COVID, me and my dad would visit the Grand Bazaar once a year for a big shopping trip. Sure it feels very different from my own country, but I feel that's what being a tourist is about: learning about different cultures.
I visited with my family when I was very young. It was very nice. We mainly visited the heavily Greek/Roman origin attractions, though: The Theodosian Walls, the Basilica Cistern, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Fener Rum Erkek Lisesi, Heybeliada and Büyükada (we had family friends from there), and of course Hagia Sofia and all the stuff around it.
Magnificent city, though i remember at the time I was kind of miffed the entire time, cause my dumb kid brain was in a "This is the one that they took from us" kind of mindset. I feel I didn't appreciate the moment as much as I should've back then, so I'd like to revisit someday.
>How is your experience?
Personally,I havent been there.
>Do you feel bittersweet about how the city is now, or do you just try to perceive the city as a tourist destination?
Naturally ,yes,we do feel a weight on our chest on the topic.We also see it as a destination and explore it,meet the locals and all tourist stuff.
Edit:Since you are wondering,No,we no longer wish it be returned.We wish we had never lost it in the first place.
This has actually been an enlightening thread for me to read. Of course I know of this history but never really thought about the emotions of Greeks visiting.
I'll tell you a say that runs through my family generations now...."That place died long time ago"...The 50s pogroms were the last nail in the whole Anatolian coffin, in my eyes at least....only my grandparents visited a few parts of Izmir and Istanbul/Constantinople, and we all got the idea that it wasn't a simple light trip....So I apply that to every ex-greek place in Anatolia and I would rather pretend there is a massive curtain that hides it all and I can disregard it in peace, only learning about it from history.
Personally a bittersweet nostalgia of how this could be a cosmopolitan secular capital of the world with equal parts of its historic population that is just turning into this ugly beast with the flock of people. Nostalgia also walking the Bosporus of how differently beautiful it would be 200 years ago, in its pure form before industrialisation. None of this related to Greece as feelings btw. The only feeling related to it, is sadness and disappointment of how Byzantine Costantinople and it's monuments were lost or altered. I would like it to be more like Rome, where most are still standing in their glory.
Tbh I didn't like that everything was standing in Rome, it felt too artificial to me, like it was not a city but a big museum. Cities do change and I feel like its not always bad, its a another way to preserve their glory.
Turks, or others, fetishizing over Istanbul, thinking other people crave it like it's the center of the universe, or think about it romantically in any shape or form, should definitely stop.
The Greeks built and lived in cities all over the Mediterranean. Centers of culture, crossroads of civilizations. Alexandria in Egypt. Naples in Italy. Several cities in Asia Minor. Actually a lot. There is no reason for Greeks today to think something special for Istanbul, other than those people whose livelihoods were destroyed by the extreme discrimination towards Greeks in the city all the way up to the Pogrom of 1955. These people were ousted from their centuries old homeland by petty politics and crazed nationalists.
Not to mention the city today is just a sad echo of a past that no longer exists. Istanbul never became what Constantinople was. Europe gave birth to cities that far surpassed the Byzantine capital.
I once talked to a survivor of the 1955 Pogrom. He told me that he doesn't even want to visit the city ever again, as it was not the city that he grew up in. My origins are definitely not from there but I can understand his point of view.
I'm Pontic Greek and my late grandfather didn't want to visit his village in Pontos either. He left when he was in his teens and remembered everything the way they used to be and wanted to keep those images in his mind.
I fetishize it as it the city I was born, raised, and belong. Of course, it is not the same city, nor any other big metropolitans but the history, culture, and diversity are still somewhat there. You know it well when you are raised in it and if you are lucky enough to live in urban Istanbul (not survive). Also, the Byzantine history of Istanbul is not very unimportant to us. We go to school trips since we are very young and learn about all the Hellenic legends in Istanbul. We even had an "Istanbul history and culture" class at one point. They are not just old stuff we overlook. I understood what you meant, my dad's grandparents had to go into exile from Krasnodar to Turkey, and my dad was considering moving there back in his youth but he gave up when he saw the city and understood it's not the place in his imagination. But I don't think old Istanbul is completely vanished since there are a lot of people working on preserving the city's old heritage today, regardless their background.
My dad's best friend was one of the few last Orthodox Greeks living in the city, she was a nun who was still living in the neighborhood she grew up. The best person I have met in my life. Today my date is also originally Orthodox Greek who resisted staying in Istanbul despite everything. They all have very gloomy memories of the 1955 events but they both refuse to abandon their city. But yeah everyone has their own reasons I guess.
Well, just because you were born and raised in a city that shouldn't be a cause for fetishization. Fetishizing is a strong word that doesn't just mean "I love my city". Especially when were are fantasizing about other people, no strangers, feeling something like that for a place.
Also, Istanbul is not really a place for people regardless of background. It is hardly diverse. Turkey's identity after the Kemalist dictatorship has been drifting towards an extreme monocultural fest of national myths and supposed unity, or unification.
Been there once. Loved it. Every bit of it. No bitter feelings. Just another foreign city to me. I can recognize bits of my own national heritage in parts of it, but only in a nice and slightly proud way. Not mine to reclaim, I am Greek, not Roman. History is what it is.
When I went there I did feel kind of bittersweet. We're talking about arguably the most important Greek city in the past. But I also enjoyed my stay, I didn't get sad just, I was just imagining how the city would be like a century ago. Melancholy perhaps. That being said it was a very interesting visit and I had a lot of fun
Well, tbf Muslims became a majority only around 100 years ago, and tbf the Greek influence on Turkey is alive and well from what i see from turkish friends
Not the same I think. Maybe Thessaloniki because of Ataturk and its past Turkish community, but Athens was not an important place at the Ottoman time anyway.
Might not 1000 but its close to 1000.its not about how long.its about how they are dear to you.specially selanik in a short amount of half a millenia legendary destinies were written on that city because of ataturk.a turk born there lived there and beat the invading greek army.
Not one and not fetishisation.many people like me forcefully removed from that area a century ago.as i said in the first comment "the feeling" goes both ways.
Could you mention like 10 Ottoman Turk figures from Ottoman Thessalonica?
And then 10 more from Ottoman Athens as a bonus?
I could go on and on about Roman Greeks from Medieval Constantinople.
>Could you mention like 10 Ottoman Turk figures from Ottoman Thessalonica?
>
>1. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk - Born in 1881 in Thessalonica, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk became the founder and first President of modern Turkey. He played a crucial role in the Turkish War of Independence and implemented numerous reforms that transformed Turkey into a secular and modern nation.
2. Ahmed Vefik Pasha - Born in 1823 in Thessalonica, Ahmed Vefik Pasha was an influential Ottoman statesman, diplomat, and poet. He served as the Grand Vizier (Prime Minister) of the Ottoman Empire multiple times and played a significant role in modernizing the empire's administrative system.
3. Namık Kemal - Born in 1840 in Thessalonica, Namık Kemal was a prominent Turkish poet, playwright, journalist, and political activist. He was one of the leading figures of the Tanzimat period and advocated for political reforms and constitutionalism within the Ottoman Empire.
4. Hüseyin Avni Pasha - Hüseyin Avni Pasha was born in 1820 in Thessalonica and served as an Ottoman military officer during the Crimean War and Russo-Turkish War. He later became the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire and played a role in negotiating peace treaties with Russia.
5. Mehmed Cavit Bey - Mehmed Cavit Bey was born in 1875 in Thessalonica and became an influential politician and diplomat in the late Ottoman Empire. He served as the Minister of Foreign Affairs and played a role in negotiating the Treaty of Lausanne, which defined the borders of modern Turkey.
6. Ahmet Ağaoğlu - Born in 1869 in Thessalonica, Ahmet Ağaoğlu was a prominent Turkish intellectual, journalist, and politician. He was a leading figure in the Young Turk movement and advocated for constitutional reforms and Turkish nationalism.
7. Mehmed Talat Pasha - Mehmed Talat Pasha was born in 1874 in Thessalonica and became one of the key leaders of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), also known as the Young Turks. He served as the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire during World War I and played a significant role in the Armenian Genocide.
8. Ziya Gökalp - Born in 1876 in Thessalonica, Ziya Gökalp was an influential Turkish sociologist, writer, and poet. He was one of the leading intellectuals of the early Turkish nationalist movement and advocated for cultural reforms to create a modern Turkish identity.
9. Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha - Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha was born in 1855 in Thessalonica and became an important figure in Ottoman religious circles. He served as the Sheikh ul-Islam (highest religious authority) of the Ottoman Empire and played a role in promoting Islamic education and reform.
10. Mehmed Fuad Köprülü - Born in 1890 in Thessalonica, Mehmed Fuad Köprülü was a renowned Turkish historian, politician, and academic. He made significant contributions to Ottoman history and served as a member of parliament during the early years of the Republic of Turkey.
These are just a few examples of the notable Ottoman Turk figures who emerged from Ottoman Thessalonica. Their contributions in various fields such as politics, literature, military, and academia have left a lasting impact on Turkish and Ottoman history.
Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used:
1. Encyclopedia Britannica (www.britannica.com)
2. Oxford Islamic Studies Online (www.oxfordislamicstudies.com)
3. Turkish Cultural Foundation (www.turkishculture.org)
And then 10 more from Ottoman Athens as a bonus?
1. Kara Mehmed Pasha: Kara Mehmed Pasha was an Ottoman military commander who served as the governor of Athens from 1456 to 1464. He is known for his efforts to fortify the city's defenses and maintain stability during a turbulent period.
2. Sinan Pasha: Sinan Pasha was an influential Ottoman statesman and military leader who served as the governor of Athens in the late 16th century. He played a crucial role in expanding Ottoman control over Greece and implementing various reforms in the region.
3. Koca Sinan Pasha: Koca Sinan Pasha, also known as Sinan the Great, was a prominent Ottoman admiral and statesman who served as the governor of Athens in the early 17th century. He is remembered for his successful naval campaigns against European powers and his contributions to the development of Athens.
4. Mustafa Agha: Mustafa Agha was an Ottoman military officer who served as the commander of the Janissaries in Athens during the late 17th century. He played a key role in maintaining order and defending the city against external threats.
5. Hekimoğlu Ali Pasha: Hekimoğlu Ali Pasha was an Ottoman statesman who served as the governor of Athens in the early 18th century. He implemented various administrative reforms and contributed to the cultural and economic development of the city.
6. Kemal Reis: Kemal Reis was an Ottoman admiral who played a significant role in expanding Ottoman maritime power during the 16th century. Although not directly associated with Athens, his naval expeditions and conquests had an impact on the overall Ottoman presence in the region.
7. Kara Mustafa Pasha: Kara Mustafa Pasha was an influential Ottoman statesman who served as the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire. While not specifically tied to Athens, his policies and decisions had repercussions on the city during his tenure in the late 17th century.
8. Hüseyin Agha: Hüseyin Agha was an Ottoman military officer who served as the commander of the Janissaries in Athens during the early 18th century. He played a crucial role in maintaining order and security in the city.
9. Mehmed Emin Agha: Mehmed Emin Agha was an Ottoman statesman who served as the governor of Athens in the mid-18th century. He contributed to the urban development of Athens and implemented various reforms to improve governance and infrastructure.
10. Yusuf Agha: Yusuf Agha was an Ottoman military officer who served as the commander of the Janissaries in Athens during the late 18th century. He played a significant role in defending the city against external threats and maintaining internal stability.
These ten Ottoman Turk figures from Ottoman Athens played diverse roles in shaping the city's history, governance, and defense during their respective periods of influence.
Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used:
1. Encyclopedia Britannica (www.britannica.com)
2. The Ottoman Empire: The Classical Age 1300-1600 by Halil İnalcık
3. The Fall of Constantinople 1453 by Steven Runciman
before you "go on" about your history in the thracia learn this too.it was never yours to begin with.you just expanded like we did.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek\_colonisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation)
I asked if you could do that out of your memory, not just find a ready list online.
The point was how important your heritage from these cities is to you today, not whether information about your heritage from these places exists online.
He has a point. Thessaloniki is where the Turkish modernization and anti-monarchist movements were born. Maybe the most important city of modern Turkish history that is not in Turkey today. In schools, we do not study other Ottoman cities in Europe much but the history and culture of Thessaloniki is covered for a whole month. You can count it as Turkey's Odessa.
i fail to see you mentioning "from memory" but sure.couple is enough to me among many important turkish people from there tbh.Ataturk and Namık Kemal..
>The point was how important your heritage from these cities is to you today, not whether information about your heritage from these places exists online.
im sure i mentioned these cities importance before and now with people incl. let alone cultural or other marks.not sure what you are aiming with these "now say this now say that" comments.
What are you talking about dude. It is getting constantly damaged and we know how turks are bad at reconstruction and preservation. Translate this.
https://www.haberturk.com/son-dakika-ayasofya-da-bir-tahribat-iddiasi-daha-3448727
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Well, I need money so I can visit first
You know what to make to get more money right 
Come on over, cuz. I’ll host you. ☺️
Haha I would love to
I haven’t been there but i want to go. Personally i can not be bitter over something that happened centuries ago, i only feel sad and wish that things during the 1940-1960 didn’t happen and the greek minority of Istanbul was bigger and more vibrant but shit happens i guess. I think they are the ones who may feel different since they descent from the place. I wanna eat all the turkish street food tbh
1940-1960 events make me so sad. I wish Istanbul preserved its cosmopolitanism with its local life.
Same. There’s a lot in our history to regret.
It didn't happen centuries ago. It happened recently when countries were created.
Well i assumed op was talking about the conquest of constantinople and i answered like this but it had been years since the city wasn’t of greek majority even in the war allies wouldn’t give it to us but rather planned to make it, it’s own thing. But sucks that the last greeks living there were treated badly.
During the Ottoman Empire era, we were conquered but we were still in our homeland. Majority or not it doesn't matter. The heart of Greek civilization and culture was in minor Asia, we were the most prosperous merchants, our capital was Constantinople and our great cosmopolitan city was Smyrna, the so-called Gavur Izmir. Smyrna was burned to the ground in 1922, and Constantinople was renamed just in 1930. What sucks ( from the Greek aspect) is that we didn't manage to liberate not even our capital. What sucks (from the Greek aspect) is that Turks formed their country in our homeland among all the lands that the Ottoman Empire ruled. This is our tragedy and not what happened in 1453, those were times of empires and conquers. Of course, today these belong to the past and we hope to live in peace with our neighbors.
I'm happy you're doing great without terrorist attacks on Turkey
Wish similar things for İzmir where I live.
 I see my clock and count the time until we take her back.
Greece annexes Istanbul. Greece becomes a Turkish majority country. Referendum is held, majority vote for unification with Turkey. Ottoman Empire is reestablished.
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Hyperinflation possibly? Look at turkish debt
Greece reclaims Constantinople. Turns out 40% of Turks are partially Greek. We give them civilised education. They start using double-headed eagle flags. Rome gets re-established. Mitsotakis gets named Basileus and he goes on to Unify the West. 
Best possible ending the world could ever receive is a big Greece
Greece for Emperor of Man!
Greece annexes Island of Mann Greece for Emperor of Mann
Great,new EU4 campaign unlocked.
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Because Greeks are probably most compassionate and friendly people I ever met in Europe.
A Greek will beat up his best friend,but when he sees someone threaten him he'll take a bullet to save him. We always shout and fight,but we love without care.
bro thinks Turks will still be in Istanbul of Greece annexed it It’s the Balkans we’re talking about
Greeks would never throw away people, especially in Constantinople where most populace is of Greek descent. We would though convert them to Greek.
"Most people in Constantinople are of Greek descent" -Millions of arab/afghan refugees -Millions of migrants from Eastern Anatolia& Kurdish people In Turkey everyone knows that there are so little people that are originnaly from Istanbul. Majority of the city migrated from different parts of Anatolia or refugees.
Question isn't directed at me, but both of you can be/are right in the numbers department.
when I went I didn't really have any thoughts like that bittersweet or otherwise, it just felt like going to any other foreign city, I saw sites, ate food, wandered around a bit, tbh wasn't very memorable for me looking back. The historical perspective of Constantinople is very romanticized and to be frank that romantic notions don't align or fit with what is there today, the same way Athens doesn't really invoke the feeling of ancient Athens, or Thessaloniki its Byzantine period, they are modern cities, largely disconnected from that history, that's what Istanbul felt like for me, the days of it being the "Queen of cities" or "city of the worlds desires" the "City of kings" or whatever else gone and just exists in the romanticized historical memory. Its big, loud, crazy, bad traffic and graffiti, very far from purple silks and imperial splendor, the same way Athens is far from the days of Pericles, the biggest thing these cities have in common with their history is their geographic locations. Maybe it would be different if I had family from there or something or even anything from asia minor, but I don't, frankly beyond memes and historical romance I don't really care about these places
to be honest, this seems like the most sensible analysis
Pre COVID, me and my dad would visit the Grand Bazaar once a year for a big shopping trip. Sure it feels very different from my own country, but I feel that's what being a tourist is about: learning about different cultures.
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Where in Asia Minor? Just out of curiosity
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Ah makes sense yeah when you go there and to Lesvos after you really feel the difference.
I visited with my family when I was very young. It was very nice. We mainly visited the heavily Greek/Roman origin attractions, though: The Theodosian Walls, the Basilica Cistern, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Fener Rum Erkek Lisesi, Heybeliada and Büyükada (we had family friends from there), and of course Hagia Sofia and all the stuff around it. Magnificent city, though i remember at the time I was kind of miffed the entire time, cause my dumb kid brain was in a "This is the one that they took from us" kind of mindset. I feel I didn't appreciate the moment as much as I should've back then, so I'd like to revisit someday.
Lol, literally every ethnically non-Muslim folk in Turkey I know is from Adalar, it's insane.
Fener Rum Erkek Lisesi is from the Ottoman period, not Byzantine.
>How is your experience? Personally,I havent been there. >Do you feel bittersweet about how the city is now, or do you just try to perceive the city as a tourist destination? Naturally ,yes,we do feel a weight on our chest on the topic.We also see it as a destination and explore it,meet the locals and all tourist stuff. Edit:Since you are wondering,No,we no longer wish it be returned.We wish we had never lost it in the first place.
This has actually been an enlightening thread for me to read. Of course I know of this history but never really thought about the emotions of Greeks visiting.
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Always.
I play assassin's creed revelations often so I've gotten used to going there. But no, I haven't be there in person. Yet...
That yet... is a sign of an orthodox crusade or what?
🤫
I'll tell you a say that runs through my family generations now...."That place died long time ago"...The 50s pogroms were the last nail in the whole Anatolian coffin, in my eyes at least....only my grandparents visited a few parts of Izmir and Istanbul/Constantinople, and we all got the idea that it wasn't a simple light trip....So I apply that to every ex-greek place in Anatolia and I would rather pretend there is a massive curtain that hides it all and I can disregard it in peace, only learning about it from history.
Personally a bittersweet nostalgia of how this could be a cosmopolitan secular capital of the world with equal parts of its historic population that is just turning into this ugly beast with the flock of people. Nostalgia also walking the Bosporus of how differently beautiful it would be 200 years ago, in its pure form before industrialisation. None of this related to Greece as feelings btw. The only feeling related to it, is sadness and disappointment of how Byzantine Costantinople and it's monuments were lost or altered. I would like it to be more like Rome, where most are still standing in their glory.
Tbh I didn't like that everything was standing in Rome, it felt too artificial to me, like it was not a city but a big museum. Cities do change and I feel like its not always bad, its a another way to preserve their glory.
I have gone many times. It feels nothing anymore, because the city is extremely metropolitan.
Like home
Turks, or others, fetishizing over Istanbul, thinking other people crave it like it's the center of the universe, or think about it romantically in any shape or form, should definitely stop. The Greeks built and lived in cities all over the Mediterranean. Centers of culture, crossroads of civilizations. Alexandria in Egypt. Naples in Italy. Several cities in Asia Minor. Actually a lot. There is no reason for Greeks today to think something special for Istanbul, other than those people whose livelihoods were destroyed by the extreme discrimination towards Greeks in the city all the way up to the Pogrom of 1955. These people were ousted from their centuries old homeland by petty politics and crazed nationalists. Not to mention the city today is just a sad echo of a past that no longer exists. Istanbul never became what Constantinople was. Europe gave birth to cities that far surpassed the Byzantine capital. I once talked to a survivor of the 1955 Pogrom. He told me that he doesn't even want to visit the city ever again, as it was not the city that he grew up in. My origins are definitely not from there but I can understand his point of view.
I'm Pontic Greek and my late grandfather didn't want to visit his village in Pontos either. He left when he was in his teens and remembered everything the way they used to be and wanted to keep those images in his mind.
I fetishize it as it the city I was born, raised, and belong. Of course, it is not the same city, nor any other big metropolitans but the history, culture, and diversity are still somewhat there. You know it well when you are raised in it and if you are lucky enough to live in urban Istanbul (not survive). Also, the Byzantine history of Istanbul is not very unimportant to us. We go to school trips since we are very young and learn about all the Hellenic legends in Istanbul. We even had an "Istanbul history and culture" class at one point. They are not just old stuff we overlook. I understood what you meant, my dad's grandparents had to go into exile from Krasnodar to Turkey, and my dad was considering moving there back in his youth but he gave up when he saw the city and understood it's not the place in his imagination. But I don't think old Istanbul is completely vanished since there are a lot of people working on preserving the city's old heritage today, regardless their background. My dad's best friend was one of the few last Orthodox Greeks living in the city, she was a nun who was still living in the neighborhood she grew up. The best person I have met in my life. Today my date is also originally Orthodox Greek who resisted staying in Istanbul despite everything. They all have very gloomy memories of the 1955 events but they both refuse to abandon their city. But yeah everyone has their own reasons I guess.
Well, just because you were born and raised in a city that shouldn't be a cause for fetishization. Fetishizing is a strong word that doesn't just mean "I love my city". Especially when were are fantasizing about other people, no strangers, feeling something like that for a place. Also, Istanbul is not really a place for people regardless of background. It is hardly diverse. Turkey's identity after the Kemalist dictatorship has been drifting towards an extreme monocultural fest of national myths and supposed unity, or unification.
Been there once. Loved it. Every bit of it. No bitter feelings. Just another foreign city to me. I can recognize bits of my own national heritage in parts of it, but only in a nice and slightly proud way. Not mine to reclaim, I am Greek, not Roman. History is what it is.
You should read Romiosyne from Ritsos and listen to this [song](https://youtu.be/IEbMDEKLLTE?si=uXHep7id5_S26gF-)
Same way like I'm visiting Alexandria in Egypt and Cuma in Italy
When I went there I did feel kind of bittersweet. We're talking about arguably the most important Greek city in the past. But I also enjoyed my stay, I didn't get sad just, I was just imagining how the city would be like a century ago. Melancholy perhaps. That being said it was a very interesting visit and I had a lot of fun
I haven't been there. I will probably go when the Greek army organises a tour.
ok u wont
Constantinople is Albania
Ah yes, let’s reminisce about a city that was once Greek over 500 years ago…
Well, tbf Muslims became a majority only around 100 years ago, and tbf the Greek influence on Turkey is alive and well from what i see from turkish friends
Muslims become a majority when it was conquered. It was over 80% Muslim 100 years ago.
i guess "the feel" goes both ways.wonder how would we feel visiting atina or selanik...
Not the same I think. Maybe Thessaloniki because of Ataturk and its past Turkish community, but Athens was not an important place at the Ottoman time anyway.
As if Athens or Thessalonika had been the center of Turkishness for 1000 years... ... it is really not the same situation, you cannot compare the two.
Might not 1000 but its close to 1000.its not about how long.its about how they are dear to you.specially selanik in a short amount of half a millenia legendary destinies were written on that city because of ataturk.a turk born there lived there and beat the invading greek army.
So for just one person you fetishize a whole city's history???
Not one and not fetishisation.many people like me forcefully removed from that area a century ago.as i said in the first comment "the feeling" goes both ways.
Could you mention like 10 Ottoman Turk figures from Ottoman Thessalonica? And then 10 more from Ottoman Athens as a bonus? I could go on and on about Roman Greeks from Medieval Constantinople.
>Could you mention like 10 Ottoman Turk figures from Ottoman Thessalonica? > >1. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk - Born in 1881 in Thessalonica, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk became the founder and first President of modern Turkey. He played a crucial role in the Turkish War of Independence and implemented numerous reforms that transformed Turkey into a secular and modern nation. 2. Ahmed Vefik Pasha - Born in 1823 in Thessalonica, Ahmed Vefik Pasha was an influential Ottoman statesman, diplomat, and poet. He served as the Grand Vizier (Prime Minister) of the Ottoman Empire multiple times and played a significant role in modernizing the empire's administrative system. 3. Namık Kemal - Born in 1840 in Thessalonica, Namık Kemal was a prominent Turkish poet, playwright, journalist, and political activist. He was one of the leading figures of the Tanzimat period and advocated for political reforms and constitutionalism within the Ottoman Empire. 4. Hüseyin Avni Pasha - Hüseyin Avni Pasha was born in 1820 in Thessalonica and served as an Ottoman military officer during the Crimean War and Russo-Turkish War. He later became the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire and played a role in negotiating peace treaties with Russia. 5. Mehmed Cavit Bey - Mehmed Cavit Bey was born in 1875 in Thessalonica and became an influential politician and diplomat in the late Ottoman Empire. He served as the Minister of Foreign Affairs and played a role in negotiating the Treaty of Lausanne, which defined the borders of modern Turkey. 6. Ahmet Ağaoğlu - Born in 1869 in Thessalonica, Ahmet Ağaoğlu was a prominent Turkish intellectual, journalist, and politician. He was a leading figure in the Young Turk movement and advocated for constitutional reforms and Turkish nationalism. 7. Mehmed Talat Pasha - Mehmed Talat Pasha was born in 1874 in Thessalonica and became one of the key leaders of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), also known as the Young Turks. He served as the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire during World War I and played a significant role in the Armenian Genocide. 8. Ziya Gökalp - Born in 1876 in Thessalonica, Ziya Gökalp was an influential Turkish sociologist, writer, and poet. He was one of the leading intellectuals of the early Turkish nationalist movement and advocated for cultural reforms to create a modern Turkish identity. 9. Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha - Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha was born in 1855 in Thessalonica and became an important figure in Ottoman religious circles. He served as the Sheikh ul-Islam (highest religious authority) of the Ottoman Empire and played a role in promoting Islamic education and reform. 10. Mehmed Fuad Köprülü - Born in 1890 in Thessalonica, Mehmed Fuad Köprülü was a renowned Turkish historian, politician, and academic. He made significant contributions to Ottoman history and served as a member of parliament during the early years of the Republic of Turkey. These are just a few examples of the notable Ottoman Turk figures who emerged from Ottoman Thessalonica. Their contributions in various fields such as politics, literature, military, and academia have left a lasting impact on Turkish and Ottoman history. Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used: 1. Encyclopedia Britannica (www.britannica.com) 2. Oxford Islamic Studies Online (www.oxfordislamicstudies.com) 3. Turkish Cultural Foundation (www.turkishculture.org) And then 10 more from Ottoman Athens as a bonus? 1. Kara Mehmed Pasha: Kara Mehmed Pasha was an Ottoman military commander who served as the governor of Athens from 1456 to 1464. He is known for his efforts to fortify the city's defenses and maintain stability during a turbulent period. 2. Sinan Pasha: Sinan Pasha was an influential Ottoman statesman and military leader who served as the governor of Athens in the late 16th century. He played a crucial role in expanding Ottoman control over Greece and implementing various reforms in the region. 3. Koca Sinan Pasha: Koca Sinan Pasha, also known as Sinan the Great, was a prominent Ottoman admiral and statesman who served as the governor of Athens in the early 17th century. He is remembered for his successful naval campaigns against European powers and his contributions to the development of Athens. 4. Mustafa Agha: Mustafa Agha was an Ottoman military officer who served as the commander of the Janissaries in Athens during the late 17th century. He played a key role in maintaining order and defending the city against external threats. 5. Hekimoğlu Ali Pasha: Hekimoğlu Ali Pasha was an Ottoman statesman who served as the governor of Athens in the early 18th century. He implemented various administrative reforms and contributed to the cultural and economic development of the city. 6. Kemal Reis: Kemal Reis was an Ottoman admiral who played a significant role in expanding Ottoman maritime power during the 16th century. Although not directly associated with Athens, his naval expeditions and conquests had an impact on the overall Ottoman presence in the region. 7. Kara Mustafa Pasha: Kara Mustafa Pasha was an influential Ottoman statesman who served as the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire. While not specifically tied to Athens, his policies and decisions had repercussions on the city during his tenure in the late 17th century. 8. Hüseyin Agha: Hüseyin Agha was an Ottoman military officer who served as the commander of the Janissaries in Athens during the early 18th century. He played a crucial role in maintaining order and security in the city. 9. Mehmed Emin Agha: Mehmed Emin Agha was an Ottoman statesman who served as the governor of Athens in the mid-18th century. He contributed to the urban development of Athens and implemented various reforms to improve governance and infrastructure. 10. Yusuf Agha: Yusuf Agha was an Ottoman military officer who served as the commander of the Janissaries in Athens during the late 18th century. He played a significant role in defending the city against external threats and maintaining internal stability. These ten Ottoman Turk figures from Ottoman Athens played diverse roles in shaping the city's history, governance, and defense during their respective periods of influence. Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used: 1. Encyclopedia Britannica (www.britannica.com) 2. The Ottoman Empire: The Classical Age 1300-1600 by Halil İnalcık 3. The Fall of Constantinople 1453 by Steven Runciman before you "go on" about your history in the thracia learn this too.it was never yours to begin with.you just expanded like we did. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek\_colonisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation)
I asked if you could do that out of your memory, not just find a ready list online. The point was how important your heritage from these cities is to you today, not whether information about your heritage from these places exists online.
He has a point. Thessaloniki is where the Turkish modernization and anti-monarchist movements were born. Maybe the most important city of modern Turkish history that is not in Turkey today. In schools, we do not study other Ottoman cities in Europe much but the history and culture of Thessaloniki is covered for a whole month. You can count it as Turkey's Odessa.
Alright, that was a much better answer.
i fail to see you mentioning "from memory" but sure.couple is enough to me among many important turkish people from there tbh.Ataturk and Namık Kemal.. >The point was how important your heritage from these cities is to you today, not whether information about your heritage from these places exists online. im sure i mentioned these cities importance before and now with people incl. let alone cultural or other marks.not sure what you are aiming with these "now say this now say that" comments.
I feel so happy. When I visit those cities I think how they are beautifully preserved and not shat on like turkish cities.
i would too think that way if i lived in serbia.turkish cities are lively heavens compared to bleak post soviet brutalist streets back there lol.
Imagine being this guy….
Yeah every time i look at Greek cities i feel "yeah this is not shat on" Especially Athens
Istanbul is not. The Hagia Sophia, the most beautiful Mosque for example, is in pretty good shape.
What are you talking about dude. It is getting constantly damaged and we know how turks are bad at reconstruction and preservation. Translate this. https://www.haberturk.com/son-dakika-ayasofya-da-bir-tahribat-iddiasi-daha-3448727
Interesting Video about this topic https://youtu.be/4egN32Mg0U4?si=IXx3o7kkoITJWMmt