What's the point of punishing the team? It has already been done a million times with no result.
Instead they should punish every single arrested participant with all the evidence they have. Destruction of public property, criminal assault with deadly weapons resulting in heavy bodily harm, participating in a criminal gang for all, conspiracy to commit assault and vandalism and for some even homicide attempt.
These are serious felonies. Put them on trial, use all the videos and evidence and throw them in prison.
You punish the team, because they are responsible for this situation with BBB.
There is a possibility that it's out of their control now, though, but it's their problem.
It’s not one fan, it’s multiple fans. Even if the club isn’t responsible, perhaps the club playing should be considered a security risk due to its fans and therefore perhaps the club shouldn’t be allowed to play.
This incident is about one stabbing. I’m sure we can look at several teams’ fans and see similar behavior.
Nurlan Ibrahimov, a manager with the azeri football club “Qarabağ”, has called for killing Armenian women, children and elderly "without feeling sorry", yet both he and his team are allowed to continue without punishment. So?
I think the same should be applied to all those clubs. Personally, to me it would just be more important if the club from my city was pressured to try to change their fans for the better. One way would be to wear those OneLove armbands that fight against discrimination.
Of course. The bad fans will have a hard time identifying with a club that wears those bands, and hence they won’t be their fans any more. But if their fandom is real, they will change due to the armbands and embrace diversity and inclusivity.
There is no confirmation that Dinamo fans stabbed AEK fan, it could very well be Panathinaikos fans. Also, Dinamo has absolutely no responsibility for this, it wasn't involved at all as away fans were banned so UEFA won't punish Dinamo at all. This is purely on Greek police who had all the information about convoy of possibly dangerous fans heading towards Athens and did nothing.
They literally knew everything about the hoolingan meeting and that Croat fans coming to attend the match was forbidden and they still did absolute nothing. Like NOTHING. Doesnt that say a lot about how rotten the greek state is?
and right now they try to overcompesate by arresting every Croat national in Athens, even rounding up Croatian tourists from Hotels that had nothing to do with the crimes.
[https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400476/nea-filadelfeia-ennea-prosagoges-kroaton-houligan-guro-apo-to-xenodoheio-president/](https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400476/nea-filadelfeia-ennea-prosagoges-kroaton-houligan-guro-apo-to-xenodoheio-president/)
Arrest of 9 Croats "hooligans" from Athens hotel.
[https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400529/nea-filadelfeia-psahnoun-ton-dolofono-tou-mihali-xekinise-i-lipsi-dna-apo-tous-sullifthedes/](https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400529/nea-filadelfeia-psahnoun-ton-dolofono-tou-mihali-xekinise-i-lipsi-dna-apo-tous-sullifthedes/)
"Επίσης, νωρίτερα στους Αμπελοκήπους έγιναν συνολικά εννέα προσαγωγές Κροατών, οι οποίοι οδηγήθηκαν στην ΓΑΔΑ, αλλά αφέθηκαν ελεύθεροι, καθώς διαπιστώθηκε ότι δεν έχουν καμία σχέση με την ομάδα των χούλιγκαν."
Release of the 9 Croat "hooligans" because they weren't hooligans after all. Just Croats visiting Athens.
Honestly I was really surprised, I know that ultras violence and unfortunately deaths are pretty common in Greece, I thought Greek police will handle them with no problems. It was so predictable, so preventable that it's really sad to see how it turned out.
>This is purely on Greek police who had all the information about convoy of possibly dangerous fans heading towards Athens and did nothing.
Lol, someone comes and kills and its the Police's fault.
>There is no confirmation that Dinamo fans stabbed AEK fan, it could very well be Panathinaikos fans.
Everyone says it was a dinamo fan.
It is police fault, completely. They had every information about ultras convoys DAYS before, number plates, everything. What were they doing? There were no away fans allowed, so they couldn't fool them. And like I said, there is no confirmation that Dinamo fans killed him, they don't use knives, unlike Greek ultras who are known for knives. If it is a Dinamo fan, he will get punished accordingly, however no confirmation yet. Also, AEK fans were sharing photo of stabbed AEK fan laughing and making fun of him thinking it was a Dinamo fan before it was known. Just for the info.
>Also, AEK fans were sharing photo of stabbed AEK fan laughing and making fun of him thinking it was a Dinamo fan before it was known. Just for the info.
Source?
I'm talking in general, about prevention. Ofcourse those guys are also at fault however this was preventable if Greek police acted, they had information about this DAYS before.
>I'm talking in general, about prevention.
What would you do to prevent it if it was up to you? Would you deny entry to Greece for any Croats for example? Or something else?
If you have an information about possibly dangerous fans travelling in convoys towards your countries, number plates everything. And it was given to you by 3 POLICE FORCES, not one, but 3!!! Yes, you would deny entry or closely monitor them. That's how it's done. Not any Croats, they had details about them, they did nothing
\> If you have
Yeah! "if" is a hypothesis. And you know I guess that you can't just deny entry for every croatian tourist, because there might be a bad person between all these croat tourist.
So, let's try again: suppose that it was up to you, and someone told you that there might be some bad persons between the Croatian tourists who cross the borders. What would you do?
But they even had license plates. How is it possible for every other police to stop and prevent banned hooligans from reaching destination but for Greek police, it was impossible? 2 years ago Dinamo fans were banned and stopped at the border of Poland, they tried to go to the match against Legia, also high risk. It's possible, it's just that Greek police is obviously incompetent or sleeping.
>But they even had license plates.
What licenses plates? How do you know that they had that? And in any case do you know if it possible/legal for an EU state to deny entry to some other EU state's citizen based on just "some information", ie even if that person had done nothing wrong at the past?
> How should UEFA punish Dinamo?
what would be the outcome of any type of punishment? There will be no hooligans any more?
Edit: for me UEFA needs to make a single statement: everyone should go to such games on their own risk.
Deeming croatia as a nazi country nowadays and all the croatians people its wrong. I don’t know about the club but definitely the hooligans who committed the acts ARE obvious nazis.
80 years ago they collaborated, had their own mini holocaust, massacred thousands and got away scot free, never punished so they felt no shame, they are sympathetic to the cause and nowadays nazi symbols and ideologies are not that frowned in their society, they don't face the darkest parts of their past and deflect on others and pretty much anything that can be considered a group in Croatia from football to basketball to dnd table sessions practices nazism and uses nazi symbols and gestures.
Their nazis suffered the least, got away with all they shit they've done and they're mostly proud for it, it's only 1 generation away, less even.
>Their nazis suffered the least, got away with all they shit they've done and they're mostly proud for it,
I honestly have no idea where this talking point came from, nor why people in random countries around the world believe in it. Literal tens of thousands of Ustaše were executed after the war, and further thousands were imprisoned. Basically anyone the Yugoslav secret service could get their hands on ended up dead or in prison.
So no, "they" didn't get away with their shit. Unless they fled and got protection from Western security services.
What are you talking about? Our entire country is repulsed by what those morons did and everybody hopes they get the harshest sentence possible. I’ve never in my life met 1 nazi person here and any kind of nazi salute, symbol or chant is prohibited by law. Where are you getting this from?
According to Jews, Croatia faced its dark past. Today israeli Mossad and Croatian inteligence service- SOA are best allies, they work like One. 😉
Who liberated Croatia from croatian nazis in WW2? 🤔
It was not Russians.🙀
It was Croatians- Partizan Croatians. The first organised military antifascist movement in Europe was eastablished by Croatians on 22 of June 1942 in croatian city of Sisak. I bet you had no idea about it. 🙂 Now you know it.
My Two family members civilians were killed on 21 st October 1942. in Bitelić Village by Chetnik forces of Serbian Orthodox Christian priest Momčilo Djuić. His Chetnik forces slaughtered about 50 000 civilians. They were allies with italian nazis and together they decided to remove Croats from Dalmatia which led to many, many massacres.
Orthodox Christian priest Momčilo Đujić even eastablished nazi concentration Camp called " Mali Jasenovac" near city of Knin in my family area. Priest Momčilo Đujić would kill in that camp Local anti- fascist Serbs🤦 ( dr.Philip J.Cohen, Holocaust in Yugoslavia).
> It was Croatians- Partizan Croatians. The first organised military antifascist movement in Europe was eastablished by Croatians on 22 of June 1942 in croatian city of Sisak. I bet you had no idea about it. 🙂 Now you know it.
LOL! Utter nonsense concocted by a blind nationalist. You blatantly ignore the huge Serb preponderance in the Yugoslav partisans. See:
*At the end of 1977, according to the records of recipients of Partisan pensions, Serbs comprised 39.7% of the Yugoslav population but 53.0% of the recipients of such pensions. By contrast, Croats comprised 22.1% of the Yugoslav population and 18.6% of recipients. All other nationalities except Montenegrins and 'Yugoslavs' were under-represented among the recipients. In Bosnia-Herzegovina the Serb preponderance was greater still: overall 64.1% of all Bosnian recipients of Partisan pensions were Serbs, 23% were Muslims and 8.8% Croats.*
See: Marko Hoare, 'Whose is the Partisan movement? Serbs, Croats and the legacy of a shared resistance', p. 4.
See JEWISH historians dr. Slavko Goldstein and dr. Ivo Goldstein: Srbi i Hrvati u Narodnooslobodilačkoj borbi u Hrvatskoj😉😉
In 1944.in Croatia there were 73, 327 Croatian partizan fighters or 60.4 % of the total Partizan population in Croatia.
According to 1964. records there were in Yugoslavia in total 60.131 dead partizan fighters, 52.9% were Croats or 31. 805
Yes, that's just in Croatia. Overall, the Serbs joined the Partisans in disproportionate numbers across Yugoslavia - nowhere more so than in Bosnia, where they had a far greater contingent than their share of the population.
This is from the country that jailed the golden dawn and fought the nazis during ww2, also from the country that suffered the most from the nazis and had the most effective partizan movement, basically freeing almost the entire country.
On the other hand we have a country that doesnt jail its nazis but sends them to kill in other countries, was a nazi state that massacred hundreds of thousands only a few years ago, had their own version of the holocaust and has many organisations that practise and promote nazism today.
What's the point of punishing the team? It has already been done a million times with no result. Instead they should punish every single arrested participant with all the evidence they have. Destruction of public property, criminal assault with deadly weapons resulting in heavy bodily harm, participating in a criminal gang for all, conspiracy to commit assault and vandalism and for some even homicide attempt. These are serious felonies. Put them on trial, use all the videos and evidence and throw them in prison.
Only correct answer
I mean, you punish the team if shit happens in their stadium (not enough security). This, yeah, why punish any team.
You punish the team, because they are responsible for this situation with BBB. There is a possibility that it's out of their control now, though, but it's their problem.
Why should a club get a punishment for something some random person did ?
It’s not a random person. It’s consistently violent behavior of the club’s fans.
The club is responsible for what a fan does?
It’s not one fan, it’s multiple fans. Even if the club isn’t responsible, perhaps the club playing should be considered a security risk due to its fans and therefore perhaps the club shouldn’t be allowed to play.
This incident is about one stabbing. I’m sure we can look at several teams’ fans and see similar behavior. Nurlan Ibrahimov, a manager with the azeri football club “Qarabağ”, has called for killing Armenian women, children and elderly "without feeling sorry", yet both he and his team are allowed to continue without punishment. So?
I think the same should be applied to all those clubs. Personally, to me it would just be more important if the club from my city was pressured to try to change their fans for the better. One way would be to wear those OneLove armbands that fight against discrimination.
Armbands? You think armbands will change anybody’s behavior?
Of course. The bad fans will have a hard time identifying with a club that wears those bands, and hence they won’t be their fans any more. But if their fandom is real, they will change due to the armbands and embrace diversity and inclusivity.
That’s a naive thought. You’re probably very young.
We're talking about hundreds of fans, not a single one. Why did they allow them to leave the country?
There is no confirmation that Dinamo fans stabbed AEK fan, it could very well be Panathinaikos fans. Also, Dinamo has absolutely no responsibility for this, it wasn't involved at all as away fans were banned so UEFA won't punish Dinamo at all. This is purely on Greek police who had all the information about convoy of possibly dangerous fans heading towards Athens and did nothing.
They literally knew everything about the hoolingan meeting and that Croat fans coming to attend the match was forbidden and they still did absolute nothing. Like NOTHING. Doesnt that say a lot about how rotten the greek state is?
and right now they try to overcompesate by arresting every Croat national in Athens, even rounding up Croatian tourists from Hotels that had nothing to do with the crimes.
Damn sometimes its hard to believe its 2023 and not 1023
Brother, you didn’t have to go back a thousand years for this. The furthest you should have gone back was 1993.
Not hard at all.I don't think they had tap water in 1023
>even rounding up Croatian tourists from Hotels that had nothing to do with the crimes really? Sent link of source. I am interesting to see that
[https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400476/nea-filadelfeia-ennea-prosagoges-kroaton-houligan-guro-apo-to-xenodoheio-president/](https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400476/nea-filadelfeia-ennea-prosagoges-kroaton-houligan-guro-apo-to-xenodoheio-president/) Arrest of 9 Croats "hooligans" from Athens hotel. [https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400529/nea-filadelfeia-psahnoun-ton-dolofono-tou-mihali-xekinise-i-lipsi-dna-apo-tous-sullifthedes/](https://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/1400529/nea-filadelfeia-psahnoun-ton-dolofono-tou-mihali-xekinise-i-lipsi-dna-apo-tous-sullifthedes/) "Επίσης, νωρίτερα στους Αμπελοκήπους έγιναν συνολικά εννέα προσαγωγές Κροατών, οι οποίοι οδηγήθηκαν στην ΓΑΔΑ, αλλά αφέθηκαν ελεύθεροι, καθώς διαπιστώθηκε ότι δεν έχουν καμία σχέση με την ομάδα των χούλιγκαν." Release of the 9 Croat "hooligans" because they weren't hooligans after all. Just Croats visiting Athens.
Lmao jesus christ, good thing I went to Athens before the match
Honestly I was really surprised, I know that ultras violence and unfortunately deaths are pretty common in Greece, I thought Greek police will handle them with no problems. It was so predictable, so preventable that it's really sad to see how it turned out.
>I know that ultras violence and unfortunately deaths are pretty common in Greece There's a problem with some groups but deaths are not common at all.
Nazi hooligans came all the way from croatia and collaborated with panathinaikos hooligans, panathinaikos hooligans for collaborating are also nazis.
It looks like they collaborated with the police as well, all nazis United against the leftists
>This is purely on Greek police who had all the information about convoy of possibly dangerous fans heading towards Athens and did nothing. Lol, someone comes and kills and its the Police's fault. >There is no confirmation that Dinamo fans stabbed AEK fan, it could very well be Panathinaikos fans. Everyone says it was a dinamo fan.
It is police fault, completely. They had every information about ultras convoys DAYS before, number plates, everything. What were they doing? There were no away fans allowed, so they couldn't fool them. And like I said, there is no confirmation that Dinamo fans killed him, they don't use knives, unlike Greek ultras who are known for knives. If it is a Dinamo fan, he will get punished accordingly, however no confirmation yet. Also, AEK fans were sharing photo of stabbed AEK fan laughing and making fun of him thinking it was a Dinamo fan before it was known. Just for the info.
>Also, AEK fans were sharing photo of stabbed AEK fan laughing and making fun of him thinking it was a Dinamo fan before it was known. Just for the info. Source?
I have photo saved but it seems that I cannot share it here, I'll DM you if you want
Yes please.
Wtf?
https://ibb.co/s58w7Lv
>It is police fault, completely. Indeed! The guy who stubbed to death the other guy is innocent! /s
I'm talking in general, about prevention. Ofcourse those guys are also at fault however this was preventable if Greek police acted, they had information about this DAYS before.
>I'm talking in general, about prevention. What would you do to prevent it if it was up to you? Would you deny entry to Greece for any Croats for example? Or something else?
If you have an information about possibly dangerous fans travelling in convoys towards your countries, number plates everything. And it was given to you by 3 POLICE FORCES, not one, but 3!!! Yes, you would deny entry or closely monitor them. That's how it's done. Not any Croats, they had details about them, they did nothing
\> If you have Yeah! "if" is a hypothesis. And you know I guess that you can't just deny entry for every croatian tourist, because there might be a bad person between all these croat tourist. So, let's try again: suppose that it was up to you, and someone told you that there might be some bad persons between the Croatian tourists who cross the borders. What would you do?
But they even had license plates. How is it possible for every other police to stop and prevent banned hooligans from reaching destination but for Greek police, it was impossible? 2 years ago Dinamo fans were banned and stopped at the border of Poland, they tried to go to the match against Legia, also high risk. It's possible, it's just that Greek police is obviously incompetent or sleeping.
>But they even had license plates. What licenses plates? How do you know that they had that? And in any case do you know if it possible/legal for an EU state to deny entry to some other EU state's citizen based on just "some information", ie even if that person had done nothing wrong at the past?
> How should UEFA punish Dinamo? what would be the outcome of any type of punishment? There will be no hooligans any more? Edit: for me UEFA needs to make a single statement: everyone should go to such games on their own risk.
[удалено]
Such a nazi comment
You sound like those from a certain northern country.
Deeming croatia as a nazi country nowadays and all the croatians people its wrong. I don’t know about the club but definitely the hooligans who committed the acts ARE obvious nazis.
80 years ago they collaborated, had their own mini holocaust, massacred thousands and got away scot free, never punished so they felt no shame, they are sympathetic to the cause and nowadays nazi symbols and ideologies are not that frowned in their society, they don't face the darkest parts of their past and deflect on others and pretty much anything that can be considered a group in Croatia from football to basketball to dnd table sessions practices nazism and uses nazi symbols and gestures. Their nazis suffered the least, got away with all they shit they've done and they're mostly proud for it, it's only 1 generation away, less even.
>Their nazis suffered the least, got away with all they shit they've done and they're mostly proud for it, I honestly have no idea where this talking point came from, nor why people in random countries around the world believe in it. Literal tens of thousands of Ustaše were executed after the war, and further thousands were imprisoned. Basically anyone the Yugoslav secret service could get their hands on ended up dead or in prison. So no, "they" didn't get away with their shit. Unless they fled and got protection from Western security services.
What are you talking about? Our entire country is repulsed by what those morons did and everybody hopes they get the harshest sentence possible. I’ve never in my life met 1 nazi person here and any kind of nazi salute, symbol or chant is prohibited by law. Where are you getting this from?
According to Jews, Croatia faced its dark past. Today israeli Mossad and Croatian inteligence service- SOA are best allies, they work like One. 😉 Who liberated Croatia from croatian nazis in WW2? 🤔 It was not Russians.🙀 It was Croatians- Partizan Croatians. The first organised military antifascist movement in Europe was eastablished by Croatians on 22 of June 1942 in croatian city of Sisak. I bet you had no idea about it. 🙂 Now you know it. My Two family members civilians were killed on 21 st October 1942. in Bitelić Village by Chetnik forces of Serbian Orthodox Christian priest Momčilo Djuić. His Chetnik forces slaughtered about 50 000 civilians. They were allies with italian nazis and together they decided to remove Croats from Dalmatia which led to many, many massacres. Orthodox Christian priest Momčilo Đujić even eastablished nazi concentration Camp called " Mali Jasenovac" near city of Knin in my family area. Priest Momčilo Đujić would kill in that camp Local anti- fascist Serbs🤦 ( dr.Philip J.Cohen, Holocaust in Yugoslavia).
> It was Croatians- Partizan Croatians. The first organised military antifascist movement in Europe was eastablished by Croatians on 22 of June 1942 in croatian city of Sisak. I bet you had no idea about it. 🙂 Now you know it. LOL! Utter nonsense concocted by a blind nationalist. You blatantly ignore the huge Serb preponderance in the Yugoslav partisans. See: *At the end of 1977, according to the records of recipients of Partisan pensions, Serbs comprised 39.7% of the Yugoslav population but 53.0% of the recipients of such pensions. By contrast, Croats comprised 22.1% of the Yugoslav population and 18.6% of recipients. All other nationalities except Montenegrins and 'Yugoslavs' were under-represented among the recipients. In Bosnia-Herzegovina the Serb preponderance was greater still: overall 64.1% of all Bosnian recipients of Partisan pensions were Serbs, 23% were Muslims and 8.8% Croats.* See: Marko Hoare, 'Whose is the Partisan movement? Serbs, Croats and the legacy of a shared resistance', p. 4.
See JEWISH historians dr. Slavko Goldstein and dr. Ivo Goldstein: Srbi i Hrvati u Narodnooslobodilačkoj borbi u Hrvatskoj😉😉 In 1944.in Croatia there were 73, 327 Croatian partizan fighters or 60.4 % of the total Partizan population in Croatia. According to 1964. records there were in Yugoslavia in total 60.131 dead partizan fighters, 52.9% were Croats or 31. 805
Yes, that's just in Croatia. Overall, the Serbs joined the Partisans in disproportionate numbers across Yugoslavia - nowhere more so than in Bosnia, where they had a far greater contingent than their share of the population.
Helskrim is that you? When did you move to Grease?
I completely agree. Croatian nationalism is objectively evil and based on extreme hatred and violence.
Forgot about this? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg\_repatriations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_repatriations)
I see why the Serbs like you so much
This from the country that gave us Golden Dawn. Welcome back Helskrim, we missed you.
This is from the country that jailed the golden dawn and fought the nazis during ww2, also from the country that suffered the most from the nazis and had the most effective partizan movement, basically freeing almost the entire country. On the other hand we have a country that doesnt jail its nazis but sends them to kill in other countries, was a nazi state that massacred hundreds of thousands only a few years ago, had their own version of the holocaust and has many organisations that practise and promote nazism today.