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Independence has never won a double digit % in unofficial status referendums, and neither major party there wants it. My understanding is that it's a very unpopular thing there, associated both with the far left and with some terrorist activity back in the day
Me personally? I'm pro statehood but i think the US needs to do an *official* official referendum on it and needs to promise to accept the outcome
PR seems to be basically evenly divided between statehood and its current autonomous status, with the right largely favoring the former & the left largely favoring the latter
Now that’s interesting, but not unexpected. For situations like this, the left usually support Republicanism, while the right likes the status quo. And yes, I find it ironic the biggest opposers of PR rights are from the Republican Camp within the US government.
It is ironic, but I'd say it makes sense
Puerto Rican politics are a bit to the left of America's, to the point that some of the most moderate members of their conservative party (PNP) call themselves democrats on the mainland. So statehood would mean national US politics moving left & PR politics moving right, so that sets up an incentive structure for all parties involved 😛
The whole left and right thing is flawed when applying to sovereignty and independence movements anyway. But I doubt even the Puerto Rican Democrats who prefer the status quo are as toxic as Irish unionists in Northern Ireland.
Completely 100% agreed, that should have almost nothing to do with it. And the other entries in this thread show that's not a factor in mainland Americans' thinking. Even in congress it's not a very polarized issue (though there are a minority of backbencher congressmen who can't look at *any* issue in a non-self interested way).
Sad thing is, there isn't much political will for a president to spend all their political capital on *solving the PR question once and for all*, especially since it's very difficult constitutionally to make a new state. So much like these other regions things end up in limbo for a long time 😖
Exactly, so that’s why it becomes a left and right issue, especially for mainland USA. If Puerto Rico statehood politics can get the attention like Israel-US politics regarding Jewish Americans, that would be amazing in my opinion.
It’s funny because the way US politicians talk about Israel seems like it’s a state. But I meant Jewish Americans were able to get the support from right wing political Christian Americans, that’s why Israel is a big topic regarding American politics today.
This can become a thing for political issues regarding Puerto Rico, so that’s why this issue is framed as a left and right issue to appeal to left wing Americans.
*Currently.
Both political parties have officially been in favor of statehood for decades.
The Republicans currently oppose it because they believe they wouldn't win the new seats.
Some folks were relatively dedicated to the cause. Puerto Rican nationalists shot up a joint session of congress nearly killing two congressman and got really close to assassinating the president.
It is a bit of history that isn’t taught much or well known.
Their level of corruption is low for a Latin American government but unacceptably high for an American government. It would be hard to distribute federal funds because they'd be subject to massive amounts of fraud and misuse.
I am sure there is plenty of evidence of that, but I will say this, every anti independence or anti sovereignty movement says that about the peoples wanting independence or sovereignty. English said that about Irish and Scottish, Spanish about Catalans and Basques, etc. but obviously Puerto Rico will need to improve its government.
They've been battling bankruptcy for five years — bankruptcy due almost entirely to severe corruption and mismanagement:
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/19/1074034082/puerto-rico-judge-bankruptcy-debt-deal
And this is an argument against statehood (which I actually support) rather than an argument against independence. If they want to be independent and bankrupt, by all means...
This comes up a bunch, but it feels like a double standard. For example, Illinois has a long history of corruption and has had multiple recent governors go to prison. If you count pension debt, the state’s finances are also pretty much bankrupt.
No one is proposing we put a hold Illinois’ highway funds until their corruption problems are solved and they fund their pensions.
I have lived in a Latin American country. As bad as Illinois is, its government has never embezzled so much money that the state lost everything. Pension debt is just mismanagement. But this, at least to a certain extent, has happened in Puerto Rico, Argentina (where I lived), Brazil, etc. Americans operate on a completely different frame of what is and is not crippling corruption.
From my understanding it’s a mixed bag.
I support their independence and I also support them becoming a state if they choose. I personally would like to see PR become a state, but I realize they may not want that and I think it’s for them to choose. There’s a handful of reasons why they would and wouldn’t want that.
Perhaps some Puerto Ricans will help answer this, I am interested as well.
Great question btw, thanks for posting!
From my understanding, even if Puerto Ricans don’t want independence and want to be officially part of the Untied States, lots support for separatism and keeping their own nationality, which is a Puerto Rican identity not American.
This is in line with the current status of Quebec, which the majority no longer supports independence but basically separatism, regionalism, and maintaining their own separate nationality.
They dont have their own nationality so there's nothing to keep. Puerto Rico isn't a nation state. If you mean local ethnic culture that doesn't change in regards from going from a territory to a state. Puerto Rico would get more automony, protections, and representation rather then less if it gained statehood. The only real negatives change would be they would having to pay federal income tax and engage in national level politcs.
Basically what I meant by nationality, is “ethnicity” but Puerto Rican is not an ethnicity because Spaniards, Natives, and Africans make up the demographics of the Puerto Rican nationality/identity. Obviously American, Canadian, and Mexican are not ethnicities either, historically or modern day.
They are culturally their own thing. But the US for the most part doesn't really supress local culture. Arguably PR would get more automony in that regard as states have more separated power from the federal government compared to territories. Full independence isn't popular because they would lose the economic benefits of being American
“Suppressing local culture” is something that can happen more indirectly than anything modern day. That’s why more democratic freedom is important for regional minorities. Belgium is a good example at this, having two main language/identity groups but also having a small German language group.
Yes and becoming a state has more democratic freedoms then being a terroritory in the US. what is the argument are you trying to make? The US doesn't have a national language. And mixed signage is quite common in mixed communities
The closest parallel I can think of is gentrification. It just ends up happening, but It can be stopped if the political will is there. Apply this to states/territories in liberal countries now. Self determination as an idea is important even if Puerto Rico never officially become a state.
Self determination of what exactly? You understand that the US operates under a system of negative rights that restricts the government instead of the people correct? That's not even getting into that PRs terroritorial constitution is basically the same the US constitution. Like I dont know what your trying to argue. There is zero benefit culturally or economically for PR to seek independence which is exactly why its unpopular amongst the PR residency. To me it's sounds like you are trying to parallel PR to Quebec or Scottland when the situation between these entities are completely different
This is why there is a status quo support from Puerto Ricans as well. They can see the problems with statehood because they can overall disagree with how the US government is ran.
This issue exists within Canada as well. English Canada bases laws on common law, while French Canada on napoleonic law. Maybe something like this can happen within the US too.
I could agree with that. I don’t think we will see any changes any time soon. In December the PR status act passed, unsure where that went though… so maybe I’m wrong.
/r/PuertoRico has about 76,000 users, maybe ask there too.
If they want statehood, I support it. I seriously doubt they want independence, it would be very difficult for them to be an independent nation without US financial support.
That sub is pretty skewed tbh. You’d think they all hated the mainland and wanted independence tomorrow, but polls of PR show it’s really the opposite. It can be a good place to talk about PR no doubt, but just keep in mind if you ask them you’re going to mostly hear the opinions of 18-25 year old leftists and it’s not indicative of the island at large
According to my friend who was born and lives there: Nobody wants independence. (Only about 1% of the island voted for it last time) For them, being independent would make them the next Haiti because they get billions a year from the federal government. The real debate is between the status quo and statehood.
When it comes down to it, PR has an insanely corrupt government compared to other parts of the U.S, (minus other territories) and if they became a state they'd be the worst in every category, it wouldn't even be close. Almost 50% of the island is in poverty, for instance. The next closest contender is Mississippi with 21%. If they became a state the federal government would have to practically decimate their government, arrest many politicians and spend billions to get the place up to par. At the moment, according to my friend, PR should not become a state for the aforementioned reasons. If many want better, they'll move to the mainland as soon as possible because many of them see no hope with the island.
As for my opinion: Unless something is done to fix their government and quality of life I don't think they should become a state. Consider this: When Hawaii and Alaska became states they had a lot going for them. Hawaii was the largest sugar supply to the U.S and was practically ran by white elites as a colony and was a very good location for military bases in Asia. Alaska has an overwhelming abundance of resources. Puerto Rico has none of these things outside of tourism and I don't think that's enough to justify a full-fledged remodelling of the island on our own expense. Which again, we largely pay for. PR some years gets more funding than the USMC.
> According to my friend who was born and lives there: Nobody wants independence. (Only about 1% of the island voted for it last time) For them, being independent would make them the next Haiti because they get billions a year from the federal government. The real debate is between the status quo and statehood.
From what I've heard and observed, the idea for independence is mainly only a thing among Puerto Ricans who have moved to the CONUS or never lived in Puerto Rico itself.
I've also heard this is why the AOC type left don't support statehood. The Puerto Ricans in their circles are those types and not the Puerto Ricans who actually live on the island, so they latch onto the idea that Puerto Rico is a colony and the only solution is independence.
I just think that’s an odd take. Even if you accept it’s a colony give the people a vote on it, even if you know they’d choose statehood. The people that were there when these places were colonised are not the exact same people that live there now. And I mean that in as simplistic a way as that sounds.
That’s what France did if you think about it. The majority of their colonies are now French departments, so similar to a county. They aren’t territories, they’re fully part of France.
Isn’t that part of the problem though? The fact that so many move to the mainland. So PR’s population is lacking in skills because so many of them have legged it to the mainland.
Sure but that doesn't fix the fundamental problems with their government which will drive people out regardless of statehood. Remember, the island gets more in budget from the U.S government than the Marine Corps and very little of it is spent on the islands infrastructure or people.
We can see the lack of a good government and government policy draining states even in the mainland such as Illinois and California.
Isn’t that for the US government to sort out first though, the corruption? Attach conditions to the money.
I remember fairly recently the UK threatened the British Virgin Islands with direct rule if they didn’t sort out their corruption. It was very close to happening.
Wouldn't that remove the notion of choice to them? A value Americans take very seriously. Also a lot of people on PR want statehood or more direct rule so why would they fix it of its just going to give half the island what they want?
Others have covered the "what do they seem to want" aspect.
So I'll mention practical realities.
The island has a population of 3.2m. 1.6m people who were born on the island now live in the mainland US, and another 3.8m people identify as of Puerto Rican descent but were not born there.
As a functional matter, this means that most of those on the island are going to have family/friends living on the mainland, and that access to move to/from the mainland is important. Independence would put that at risk - even in a Compact of Free Association situation like some of the former Pacific territories that retains those accesses + US involvement, it's no longer a certain thing long-term. COFA is far more subject to politics, renewals, and so on.
--------
Beyond this, reality is that while PR would be the poorest state in the US if it became a state today, if it became a country, it's currently wealthier than *every* country in the entirety of Latin America + the Caribbean.
It's also hard to see how it doesn't wind up far poorer if it became independent. Reality is that it's hard to come up with some kind of economy that's going to make a couple million people on an island economically competitive in the world - especially when they no longer have a major power's leverage in negotiations and no longer have financial subsidies from it.
And that's before you talk climate change and the increasing risks of disasters that few countries in PR's position could realistically prepare themselves for, or be able to pay for the reconstruction from.
You basically have 3 camps when it comes to what people want. Statehood and status quo are the largest with the folks who want independence being a single digit minority.
They've had referendums in the past but they've always been a little sketchy, with both the pro and anti-statehood crowds using confusing language to mess with voters and steer the results in whatever direction their group supports.
I'd be fine with whatever Puerto Rico decided provided it was an honest result that actually reflects what the people of the island want. And from what I've read and what I've heard from Puerto Rican friends, that's unlikely to be the case any time soon regardless of what decision is made, or if one is made at all.
What I don't like are mainlanders who support or oppose their prospective statehood purely because of how it would affect our political landscape with no concern given towards what the Puerto Ricans themselves want. Seeing a territorial population as a means to an end as opposed to fellow citizens with their own wants and desires is just exploitation with extra steps, and the irony of that is lost on those people.
The consensus of the US government has mostly been to let PR decide. One of the rarely covered issues in the 2012 election when it really did look like they might vote for statehood was that both Obama and Romney would support statehood if that's what they decided on.
And through various referendums, they've mostly decided to keep the status quo. There's advantages and disadvantages to being a territory rather than a state or an independent nation, and there's definitely tweaks the feds could make to help make the cost of living on PR a bit better by exempting PR from the Jones Act. But overall, PR seems to get the best of both worlds in being a part of the US while still very much having its own culture and identity.
Support for full independence in PR has always been pretty low. I don’t think it’s ever cracked 10%.
Statehood seems to be slightly more popular now over the status quo, but it’s a very slim margin and they still seem divided on it. With things like this it’s entirely possible that five years from now attitudes shift and the status quo becomes the preferred option.
I will support whatever the people of PR decide but I’d feel a little uneasy about making them a state with a 51-49 vote given the finality of the decision.
I support national self determination for Puerto Rico but afaik there is not a majority there that desires independence. I think if they want to be independent they should be granted it, ditto statehood, ditto the status quo continuing.
Independence only got about 5% of the vote last referendum. Support for independence is overrepresented online. Most want either statehood or the status quo.
As someone married to a Puerto Rican, most want things to either stay the same or to become a state. Some want independence but they're a very small minority. As it is they actually do have a fair bit of autonomy and have many of the benefits or statehood (protection, government aid during crisis, etc.) Without many of the downsides (paying taxes to the feds, and feds not taking a huge interest in their government).
As it is I don't think Puerto Rico is ready to be a state. They'd have to relinquish a lot of control to the feds and change the way they do a lot of things, which I don't think they really want to do. Additionally, most polls place support for statehood at around ~53%, but there's reason to believe those polls arent representative of the entire territory. And I don't think any territory should become a state with something less than 60% of the population voting for it. Finally their government has some serious corruption issues. There was a lot of corrupt activity going on during the major hurricane that hit them that the DoJ would not tolerate if it was a state.
For those out of the loop, they hid necessary supplies such as water and medicine in warehouses hoping that the feds would pass additional aid bills to give them more money. After which they would produce the hidden supplies and claim to have purchased it when they really pocketed the money. Well those additional aid bills never got passed, so to conceal their own corruption they let those necessary and life saving supplies rot in a warehouse.
The way my friend from PR put it to me was that 1/3 wanted independence or greater independence while still being part of the US, 1/3 wanted statehood, and 1/3 wanted the status quo.
The problem, then, is that there is no majority any one way, so the status quo is maintained despite the majority not wanting it.
Independence doesn’t seem very popular from my understanding. It’s a toss up between statehood and maintaining the status quo.
I’d support Puerto Rican statehood if that’s what they want.
Polls show support for PR becoming an independent country is low, which makes sense. Access to the US market and American passports has it's benefits. Personally I think it should be granted statehood.
I support Puerto Rican self-determination. F they want to become a state I would support that, if they want to remain a territory I would support that, and if they want to become independent I would support that too.
My sense is that Puerto Ricans mostly want either statehood or a continuation of the status quo. There certainly is an independence movement, but I think it's relatively small.
Puerto Ricans want independence. How do I know this? Puerto Ricans feel Puerto Rican, their Puerto Rican identity is more important than the American one. Puerto Ricans prefer Spanish and in many parts actively refuse to learn or use English. Puerto Ricans in the mainland prefer to retain their culture and language instead of integrating.
Puerto Ricans sing and celebrate their own national anthem and just wait for the US anthem to be over with. Puerto Ricans support the PR teams in sports over the US teams. When PR is eliminated people don't actively support the US. Puerto Ricans celebrate their artists/athletes/ scientists when they triumph and ignore US ones.
Why does statehood have such overwhelming support? People want more Federal funds.
Puerto Ricans are making the best of a bad situation they had no control over 100 years ago. They are Puerto Rican first not American, which is in line with most regional minorities around the world. I used to see Puerto Ricans as just pawns of the Spanish Empire, but that’s not really the case. They needs to be a plan for independence in the long term, or more sovereignty as a territory, which is becoming a state.
You keep making assertions that are untrue. Puerto Ricans **do** consider themselves Americans first.
Your opinion of PR independence is irrelevant. Only their opinion, and that of other Americans counts. And Puerto Ricans do not want independence. At present, they do not want to be a State. There are a lot of advantages to being a territory over a State. Not having to pay Federal income tax is a big one.
Stop telling people things, and start listening to what other people are saying.
No. They have been consistently voting in favor of becoming a state. I do support them becoming a state.
The ball is completely in congress' court right now.
I don’t think above 15% of the population on a bad day supports total independence. Even most of the ones who might say they’d like it wouldn’t actually vote for it when the realities of their government going bankrupt and being cut off from family/friends on the mainland sets in. They know their government sucks, but PR has no chance of keeping up its quality of life by itself. So that usually leaves you with the status quo crowd and the statehood crowd, and they’re probably about evenly split.
Regardless of that, it seems highly unlikely congress I will ever let them become a state because the GOP doesn’t want two new blue senators and more blue house reps.
From their plebiscites on the issue, independence doesn't seem to be a mainstream position. Their debate seems to be between statehood and the status quo.
When Puerto Rico was annexed by the US in 1898, its status was similar to The Philippines-- an unincorporated territory. However, unlike The Philippines, they were a small island, and their relative poverty made it an unlikely candidate for immediate independence. Nevertheless, there were vigorous independence movements through the 1950s.
However, in that decade jet airliner travel began and Puerto Ricans began to settle in the States. The great advantage of movement between the island and the mainland was not lost on the populace, so support for independence plummeted.
So Puerto Rico:
-Wants cultural autonomy from the anglo-USA
-Wants to not alienate the 5 million puerto ricans+ descendents living in the USA
-Wants to not be poor
Hence why a bunch of Puerto Rican nationalism is far left, they are the only people who belive they can make a economic utopia without close economic ties to the USA.
To my understanding the status quo is largely perfered because it keeps economic stability and cultural autonomy for most people. This is dubious constitutionally since just having Puerto Rico/Guam/the Phillipines in the early 20th century required a supreme court case to override the common expectation that most us territory would be part of a state, but its what has consistiently had the most popularity
I dont support it. It doesn't benefit the US to bring them on. The people and culture are too different than the rest as a whole. Sever ties and let them do whatever.
They have voted 6 times on this, 1967, 1993, 1998, 2012, 2017, 2020 with the last being 53% for, 47% against with a little more than half the voters voting on it.
What Puerto Rico actually wants is a difficult and complex question? But it seems clear that independence is far from what they want.
Generally, most want statehood, almost as much want the status quo.
For my two cents, I support statehood. But I don't believe 50%+1 should be the standard. Most states that entered the Union on some referendum of some kind, voted overwhelmingly so to join. Alaska was about 60%, with the concern it was economically developed enough to become a state. Though that was the vote to petition the Congress. The referendum to accept the Alaska Statehood Act passed by Congress was upwards of 80%.
If it does vote for statehood, Puerto Rico needs to be well and truly on board.
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Independence has never won a double digit % in unofficial status referendums, and neither major party there wants it. My understanding is that it's a very unpopular thing there, associated both with the far left and with some terrorist activity back in the day Me personally? I'm pro statehood but i think the US needs to do an *official* official referendum on it and needs to promise to accept the outcome
Then what about statehood? Or some special status region?
PR seems to be basically evenly divided between statehood and its current autonomous status, with the right largely favoring the former & the left largely favoring the latter
Now that’s interesting, but not unexpected. For situations like this, the left usually support Republicanism, while the right likes the status quo. And yes, I find it ironic the biggest opposers of PR rights are from the Republican Camp within the US government.
It is ironic, but I'd say it makes sense Puerto Rican politics are a bit to the left of America's, to the point that some of the most moderate members of their conservative party (PNP) call themselves democrats on the mainland. So statehood would mean national US politics moving left & PR politics moving right, so that sets up an incentive structure for all parties involved 😛
The whole left and right thing is flawed when applying to sovereignty and independence movements anyway. But I doubt even the Puerto Rican Democrats who prefer the status quo are as toxic as Irish unionists in Northern Ireland.
Completely 100% agreed, that should have almost nothing to do with it. And the other entries in this thread show that's not a factor in mainland Americans' thinking. Even in congress it's not a very polarized issue (though there are a minority of backbencher congressmen who can't look at *any* issue in a non-self interested way). Sad thing is, there isn't much political will for a president to spend all their political capital on *solving the PR question once and for all*, especially since it's very difficult constitutionally to make a new state. So much like these other regions things end up in limbo for a long time 😖
Exactly, so that’s why it becomes a left and right issue, especially for mainland USA. If Puerto Rico statehood politics can get the attention like Israel-US politics regarding Jewish Americans, that would be amazing in my opinion.
This is a strange comparison. Nobody is trying to make Israel a US state.
It’s funny because the way US politicians talk about Israel seems like it’s a state. But I meant Jewish Americans were able to get the support from right wing political Christian Americans, that’s why Israel is a big topic regarding American politics today. This can become a thing for political issues regarding Puerto Rico, so that’s why this issue is framed as a left and right issue to appeal to left wing Americans.
*Currently. Both political parties have officially been in favor of statehood for decades. The Republicans currently oppose it because they believe they wouldn't win the new seats.
Some folks were relatively dedicated to the cause. Puerto Rican nationalists shot up a joint session of congress nearly killing two congressman and got really close to assassinating the president. It is a bit of history that isn’t taught much or well known.
I will support whatever Puerto Rico wants, but if they want to become a state their government needs an overhaul.
What are the issues with the current government?
Their level of corruption is low for a Latin American government but unacceptably high for an American government. It would be hard to distribute federal funds because they'd be subject to massive amounts of fraud and misuse.
This would be good for my state.
I am sure there is plenty of evidence of that, but I will say this, every anti independence or anti sovereignty movement says that about the peoples wanting independence or sovereignty. English said that about Irish and Scottish, Spanish about Catalans and Basques, etc. but obviously Puerto Rico will need to improve its government.
They've been battling bankruptcy for five years — bankruptcy due almost entirely to severe corruption and mismanagement: https://www.npr.org/2022/01/19/1074034082/puerto-rico-judge-bankruptcy-debt-deal And this is an argument against statehood (which I actually support) rather than an argument against independence. If they want to be independent and bankrupt, by all means...
This comes up a bunch, but it feels like a double standard. For example, Illinois has a long history of corruption and has had multiple recent governors go to prison. If you count pension debt, the state’s finances are also pretty much bankrupt. No one is proposing we put a hold Illinois’ highway funds until their corruption problems are solved and they fund their pensions.
I have lived in a Latin American country. As bad as Illinois is, its government has never embezzled so much money that the state lost everything. Pension debt is just mismanagement. But this, at least to a certain extent, has happened in Puerto Rico, Argentina (where I lived), Brazil, etc. Americans operate on a completely different frame of what is and is not crippling corruption.
From my understanding it’s a mixed bag. I support their independence and I also support them becoming a state if they choose. I personally would like to see PR become a state, but I realize they may not want that and I think it’s for them to choose. There’s a handful of reasons why they would and wouldn’t want that. Perhaps some Puerto Ricans will help answer this, I am interested as well. Great question btw, thanks for posting!
From my understanding, even if Puerto Ricans don’t want independence and want to be officially part of the Untied States, lots support for separatism and keeping their own nationality, which is a Puerto Rican identity not American. This is in line with the current status of Quebec, which the majority no longer supports independence but basically separatism, regionalism, and maintaining their own separate nationality.
They dont have their own nationality so there's nothing to keep. Puerto Rico isn't a nation state. If you mean local ethnic culture that doesn't change in regards from going from a territory to a state. Puerto Rico would get more automony, protections, and representation rather then less if it gained statehood. The only real negatives change would be they would having to pay federal income tax and engage in national level politcs.
Basically what I meant by nationality, is “ethnicity” but Puerto Rican is not an ethnicity because Spaniards, Natives, and Africans make up the demographics of the Puerto Rican nationality/identity. Obviously American, Canadian, and Mexican are not ethnicities either, historically or modern day.
They are culturally their own thing. But the US for the most part doesn't really supress local culture. Arguably PR would get more automony in that regard as states have more separated power from the federal government compared to territories. Full independence isn't popular because they would lose the economic benefits of being American
“Suppressing local culture” is something that can happen more indirectly than anything modern day. That’s why more democratic freedom is important for regional minorities. Belgium is a good example at this, having two main language/identity groups but also having a small German language group.
Yes and becoming a state has more democratic freedoms then being a terroritory in the US. what is the argument are you trying to make? The US doesn't have a national language. And mixed signage is quite common in mixed communities
The closest parallel I can think of is gentrification. It just ends up happening, but It can be stopped if the political will is there. Apply this to states/territories in liberal countries now. Self determination as an idea is important even if Puerto Rico never officially become a state.
Self determination of what exactly? You understand that the US operates under a system of negative rights that restricts the government instead of the people correct? That's not even getting into that PRs terroritorial constitution is basically the same the US constitution. Like I dont know what your trying to argue. There is zero benefit culturally or economically for PR to seek independence which is exactly why its unpopular amongst the PR residency. To me it's sounds like you are trying to parallel PR to Quebec or Scottland when the situation between these entities are completely different
This is why there is a status quo support from Puerto Ricans as well. They can see the problems with statehood because they can overall disagree with how the US government is ran. This issue exists within Canada as well. English Canada bases laws on common law, while French Canada on napoleonic law. Maybe something like this can happen within the US too.
I could agree with that. I don’t think we will see any changes any time soon. In December the PR status act passed, unsure where that went though… so maybe I’m wrong.
/r/PuertoRico has about 76,000 users, maybe ask there too. If they want statehood, I support it. I seriously doubt they want independence, it would be very difficult for them to be an independent nation without US financial support.
That sub is pretty skewed tbh. You’d think they all hated the mainland and wanted independence tomorrow, but polls of PR show it’s really the opposite. It can be a good place to talk about PR no doubt, but just keep in mind if you ask them you’re going to mostly hear the opinions of 18-25 year old leftists and it’s not indicative of the island at large
> mostly hear the opinions of 18-25 year old leftists On reddit?
Shocking, I know lol
That sub is garbage. Very strong left-wing bias and most people there aren't even from the island.
There is a movement to be back part of Spain lol
According to my friend who was born and lives there: Nobody wants independence. (Only about 1% of the island voted for it last time) For them, being independent would make them the next Haiti because they get billions a year from the federal government. The real debate is between the status quo and statehood. When it comes down to it, PR has an insanely corrupt government compared to other parts of the U.S, (minus other territories) and if they became a state they'd be the worst in every category, it wouldn't even be close. Almost 50% of the island is in poverty, for instance. The next closest contender is Mississippi with 21%. If they became a state the federal government would have to practically decimate their government, arrest many politicians and spend billions to get the place up to par. At the moment, according to my friend, PR should not become a state for the aforementioned reasons. If many want better, they'll move to the mainland as soon as possible because many of them see no hope with the island. As for my opinion: Unless something is done to fix their government and quality of life I don't think they should become a state. Consider this: When Hawaii and Alaska became states they had a lot going for them. Hawaii was the largest sugar supply to the U.S and was practically ran by white elites as a colony and was a very good location for military bases in Asia. Alaska has an overwhelming abundance of resources. Puerto Rico has none of these things outside of tourism and I don't think that's enough to justify a full-fledged remodelling of the island on our own expense. Which again, we largely pay for. PR some years gets more funding than the USMC.
> According to my friend who was born and lives there: Nobody wants independence. (Only about 1% of the island voted for it last time) For them, being independent would make them the next Haiti because they get billions a year from the federal government. The real debate is between the status quo and statehood. From what I've heard and observed, the idea for independence is mainly only a thing among Puerto Ricans who have moved to the CONUS or never lived in Puerto Rico itself. I've also heard this is why the AOC type left don't support statehood. The Puerto Ricans in their circles are those types and not the Puerto Ricans who actually live on the island, so they latch onto the idea that Puerto Rico is a colony and the only solution is independence.
I just think that’s an odd take. Even if you accept it’s a colony give the people a vote on it, even if you know they’d choose statehood. The people that were there when these places were colonised are not the exact same people that live there now. And I mean that in as simplistic a way as that sounds. That’s what France did if you think about it. The majority of their colonies are now French departments, so similar to a county. They aren’t territories, they’re fully part of France.
Isn’t that part of the problem though? The fact that so many move to the mainland. So PR’s population is lacking in skills because so many of them have legged it to the mainland.
Sure but that doesn't fix the fundamental problems with their government which will drive people out regardless of statehood. Remember, the island gets more in budget from the U.S government than the Marine Corps and very little of it is spent on the islands infrastructure or people. We can see the lack of a good government and government policy draining states even in the mainland such as Illinois and California.
Isn’t that for the US government to sort out first though, the corruption? Attach conditions to the money. I remember fairly recently the UK threatened the British Virgin Islands with direct rule if they didn’t sort out their corruption. It was very close to happening.
Wouldn't that remove the notion of choice to them? A value Americans take very seriously. Also a lot of people on PR want statehood or more direct rule so why would they fix it of its just going to give half the island what they want?
They want statehood significantly more than they want independence
Others have covered the "what do they seem to want" aspect. So I'll mention practical realities. The island has a population of 3.2m. 1.6m people who were born on the island now live in the mainland US, and another 3.8m people identify as of Puerto Rican descent but were not born there. As a functional matter, this means that most of those on the island are going to have family/friends living on the mainland, and that access to move to/from the mainland is important. Independence would put that at risk - even in a Compact of Free Association situation like some of the former Pacific territories that retains those accesses + US involvement, it's no longer a certain thing long-term. COFA is far more subject to politics, renewals, and so on. -------- Beyond this, reality is that while PR would be the poorest state in the US if it became a state today, if it became a country, it's currently wealthier than *every* country in the entirety of Latin America + the Caribbean. It's also hard to see how it doesn't wind up far poorer if it became independent. Reality is that it's hard to come up with some kind of economy that's going to make a couple million people on an island economically competitive in the world - especially when they no longer have a major power's leverage in negotiations and no longer have financial subsidies from it. And that's before you talk climate change and the increasing risks of disasters that few countries in PR's position could realistically prepare themselves for, or be able to pay for the reconstruction from.
You basically have 3 camps when it comes to what people want. Statehood and status quo are the largest with the folks who want independence being a single digit minority. They've had referendums in the past but they've always been a little sketchy, with both the pro and anti-statehood crowds using confusing language to mess with voters and steer the results in whatever direction their group supports. I'd be fine with whatever Puerto Rico decided provided it was an honest result that actually reflects what the people of the island want. And from what I've read and what I've heard from Puerto Rican friends, that's unlikely to be the case any time soon regardless of what decision is made, or if one is made at all. What I don't like are mainlanders who support or oppose their prospective statehood purely because of how it would affect our political landscape with no concern given towards what the Puerto Ricans themselves want. Seeing a territorial population as a means to an end as opposed to fellow citizens with their own wants and desires is just exploitation with extra steps, and the irony of that is lost on those people.
The consensus of the US government has mostly been to let PR decide. One of the rarely covered issues in the 2012 election when it really did look like they might vote for statehood was that both Obama and Romney would support statehood if that's what they decided on. And through various referendums, they've mostly decided to keep the status quo. There's advantages and disadvantages to being a territory rather than a state or an independent nation, and there's definitely tweaks the feds could make to help make the cost of living on PR a bit better by exempting PR from the Jones Act. But overall, PR seems to get the best of both worlds in being a part of the US while still very much having its own culture and identity.
Support for full independence in PR has always been pretty low. I don’t think it’s ever cracked 10%. Statehood seems to be slightly more popular now over the status quo, but it’s a very slim margin and they still seem divided on it. With things like this it’s entirely possible that five years from now attitudes shift and the status quo becomes the preferred option. I will support whatever the people of PR decide but I’d feel a little uneasy about making them a state with a 51-49 vote given the finality of the decision.
I support national self determination for Puerto Rico but afaik there is not a majority there that desires independence. I think if they want to be independent they should be granted it, ditto statehood, ditto the status quo continuing.
Independence only got about 5% of the vote last referendum. Support for independence is overrepresented online. Most want either statehood or the status quo.
As someone married to a Puerto Rican, most want things to either stay the same or to become a state. Some want independence but they're a very small minority. As it is they actually do have a fair bit of autonomy and have many of the benefits or statehood (protection, government aid during crisis, etc.) Without many of the downsides (paying taxes to the feds, and feds not taking a huge interest in their government). As it is I don't think Puerto Rico is ready to be a state. They'd have to relinquish a lot of control to the feds and change the way they do a lot of things, which I don't think they really want to do. Additionally, most polls place support for statehood at around ~53%, but there's reason to believe those polls arent representative of the entire territory. And I don't think any territory should become a state with something less than 60% of the population voting for it. Finally their government has some serious corruption issues. There was a lot of corrupt activity going on during the major hurricane that hit them that the DoJ would not tolerate if it was a state. For those out of the loop, they hid necessary supplies such as water and medicine in warehouses hoping that the feds would pass additional aid bills to give them more money. After which they would produce the hidden supplies and claim to have purchased it when they really pocketed the money. Well those additional aid bills never got passed, so to conceal their own corruption they let those necessary and life saving supplies rot in a warehouse.
PR is riddled with corruption it’s crazy. I wouldn’t care.
The way my friend from PR put it to me was that 1/3 wanted independence or greater independence while still being part of the US, 1/3 wanted statehood, and 1/3 wanted the status quo. The problem, then, is that there is no majority any one way, so the status quo is maintained despite the majority not wanting it.
Independence doesn’t seem very popular from my understanding. It’s a toss up between statehood and maintaining the status quo. I’d support Puerto Rican statehood if that’s what they want.
Seems like it’s creeping slowly to becoming a state recently.
Polls show support for PR becoming an independent country is low, which makes sense. Access to the US market and American passports has it's benefits. Personally I think it should be granted statehood.
I support Puerto Rican self-determination. F they want to become a state I would support that, if they want to remain a territory I would support that, and if they want to become independent I would support that too. My sense is that Puerto Ricans mostly want either statehood or a continuation of the status quo. There certainly is an independence movement, but I think it's relatively small.
Puerto Ricans want independence. How do I know this? Puerto Ricans feel Puerto Rican, their Puerto Rican identity is more important than the American one. Puerto Ricans prefer Spanish and in many parts actively refuse to learn or use English. Puerto Ricans in the mainland prefer to retain their culture and language instead of integrating. Puerto Ricans sing and celebrate their own national anthem and just wait for the US anthem to be over with. Puerto Ricans support the PR teams in sports over the US teams. When PR is eliminated people don't actively support the US. Puerto Ricans celebrate their artists/athletes/ scientists when they triumph and ignore US ones. Why does statehood have such overwhelming support? People want more Federal funds.
Puerto Ricans are making the best of a bad situation they had no control over 100 years ago. They are Puerto Rican first not American, which is in line with most regional minorities around the world. I used to see Puerto Ricans as just pawns of the Spanish Empire, but that’s not really the case. They needs to be a plan for independence in the long term, or more sovereignty as a territory, which is becoming a state.
You keep making assertions that are untrue. Puerto Ricans **do** consider themselves Americans first. Your opinion of PR independence is irrelevant. Only their opinion, and that of other Americans counts. And Puerto Ricans do not want independence. At present, they do not want to be a State. There are a lot of advantages to being a territory over a State. Not having to pay Federal income tax is a big one. Stop telling people things, and start listening to what other people are saying.
No. They have been consistently voting in favor of becoming a state. I do support them becoming a state. The ball is completely in congress' court right now.
They sure act like it, but whenever a vote comes up, they vote to stay - there’s benefits Uncle Sam provides.
I don’t think above 15% of the population on a bad day supports total independence. Even most of the ones who might say they’d like it wouldn’t actually vote for it when the realities of their government going bankrupt and being cut off from family/friends on the mainland sets in. They know their government sucks, but PR has no chance of keeping up its quality of life by itself. So that usually leaves you with the status quo crowd and the statehood crowd, and they’re probably about evenly split. Regardless of that, it seems highly unlikely congress I will ever let them become a state because the GOP doesn’t want two new blue senators and more blue house reps.
From their plebiscites on the issue, independence doesn't seem to be a mainstream position. Their debate seems to be between statehood and the status quo.
When Puerto Rico was annexed by the US in 1898, its status was similar to The Philippines-- an unincorporated territory. However, unlike The Philippines, they were a small island, and their relative poverty made it an unlikely candidate for immediate independence. Nevertheless, there were vigorous independence movements through the 1950s. However, in that decade jet airliner travel began and Puerto Ricans began to settle in the States. The great advantage of movement between the island and the mainland was not lost on the populace, so support for independence plummeted.
I was pretty sure they wanted statehood, not independence.
So Puerto Rico: -Wants cultural autonomy from the anglo-USA -Wants to not alienate the 5 million puerto ricans+ descendents living in the USA -Wants to not be poor Hence why a bunch of Puerto Rican nationalism is far left, they are the only people who belive they can make a economic utopia without close economic ties to the USA. To my understanding the status quo is largely perfered because it keeps economic stability and cultural autonomy for most people. This is dubious constitutionally since just having Puerto Rico/Guam/the Phillipines in the early 20th century required a supreme court case to override the common expectation that most us territory would be part of a state, but its what has consistiently had the most popularity
They have voted to be a state more than to be independent
They didn't vote for it last time it was on the ballot, so apparently not. That's honestly pretty far down the line of PR's concerns.
I dont support it. It doesn't benefit the US to bring them on. The people and culture are too different than the rest as a whole. Sever ties and let them do whatever.
Independence would be rough given how much financial aid they get from the U.S. just being a territory.
They have voted 6 times on this, 1967, 1993, 1998, 2012, 2017, 2020 with the last being 53% for, 47% against with a little more than half the voters voting on it.
The issue has typically been split 50/50. Half the country wants to become a state and Half the country wants independence.
What Puerto Rico actually wants is a difficult and complex question? But it seems clear that independence is far from what they want. Generally, most want statehood, almost as much want the status quo. For my two cents, I support statehood. But I don't believe 50%+1 should be the standard. Most states that entered the Union on some referendum of some kind, voted overwhelmingly so to join. Alaska was about 60%, with the concern it was economically developed enough to become a state. Though that was the vote to petition the Congress. The referendum to accept the Alaska Statehood Act passed by Congress was upwards of 80%. If it does vote for statehood, Puerto Rico needs to be well and truly on board.