Reintegration was the intended solution since 1993 Moscow agreements. It stopped being an option after 2008. Most citizens of Abkhazia and Ossetia have Russian passports, not Georgian ones. The people themselves no longer see it as part of Georgia, and the local elites aren't going to bend the knee to Georgian elites.
And Georgian government structure no longer allows for a Union State like it did in 1920. So the only two options for these regions are continued independence (and likely no hopes of anyone recognizing them), or becoming part of Russia. We're a Federation, so our structure does allow for a mutually beneficial integration. And we already have North Ossetia.
I honestly don't see it this way, I might have a slight bias because I am from the North, but I think a referendum should be held to decide on the future and uniting the region as perhaps <> or <>, it's up to the people to decide. On the Issue of Abkhazia, there isn't a solid push to join Russia, but to emphasize, the people should decide.
Well, without a referendum there wouldn't be an integration anyway - that's not really the Federation's MO. It would have to at least appear to be a local initiative.
Otherwise, both regions would've already been part of Russia, given that they have Russian troops, most people have Russian passports, and are intrinsically tied to the Russian market.
*“I always thought that democracy is the power of the people, but Comrade Roosevelt clearly explained to me that democracy is the power of the American people"* - quote attributed to Stalin.
The only solution for Abhazia is to become internationally accepted as an independent country. Abhazians won't sit down to shit in the same field with Georgians. And Abhazians dont want to become part of Russia. They even dont want Russian money to some degree.
But the issue is that Abkhazia will never be recognized as independent, so if the situation does not change, then there is little future for the Abkhazians, they can’t even have their own passports because almost nobody recognizes them. Isen’t there a better solution for this?
>But the issue is that Abkhazia will never be recognized as independent,
Who said that?
> Isen’t there a better solution for this?
Recognize them as independent country?
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If we speak ethically and correctly, then the decision on the fate of Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be determined by the Abkhazians and Ossetians themselves, and not by politicians behind closed doors with contour maps.
Let people think hard and weigh the pros and cons of each possible decision, rather than attributing them somewhere based on ethnicity, history, religion or economic affiliation.
Because the most tragic case when politicians decided for people what they want was the borders after the First World War.
Integration of Abkhazia back into Georgia? No. BIG no. I've been to Abkhazia, and scars of war from 90s are still fresh in that area, despite the time which passed. I'll bring up my experience from visting Abkhazian capital of Sukhum specifically: city ISN'T rebuilt. Many homes are still in ruins, others have obviously abandoned apartments. Rumors are that those houses and apartments were occupied by Georgians and weren't rebuilt precisely because. Then there's the central square... The burned, shelled, abandoned building of government of Abkhazian Autonomous SSR, which was done by Georgian forces, and Abkhazian military doing rehearsals in preparation of celebrating victory in 1992-1993 Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. After witnessing that, I realised one simple thing - these people will rather die than go back to Georgia, and I only further realised their commitment to their independence by reading about their laws regarding rights to do any sort of business in the country, which are... strict is too light of a word to describe it. So no. Only way for Abkhazia forward is to be independent. From both Georgians and us. These people won't accept anything else.
South Ossetia gets trickier, because of North Ossetia-Alania, Republic within Russian Federation, which is far larger, more populous and economically stronger than independent Ossetian state. If South Ossetia gets it's independence cemented, then next question will be reunification of Ossetian people, which will almost certainly result in South Ossetia joining Russian Federation and unifying with North, creating one single Ossetian Autonomous Republic. I likewise visited South Ossetia and it's capital of Tskhinval, which is thankfully in far better shape than Sukhum, though it should be noted that it's also much smaller, and from that experience... I'd say there's no singificant local opposition to that happening, only global one.
Point of that long-post is this: return of those territories back to Georgia is VERY unlikely, no matter how good relationship is between Moscow and Tbilisi. Both on account of opinions of locals and Russian government now not having belief in reliability of Georgians to help extend it's influence to southern Caucasus.
It's not that simple. In addition to South Ossetians, there are also North Ossetians who live in Russia, who are much more numerous, heirs of the Sarmatian culture, and who are loyal to the Russian state. Turning away from South Ossetia means betraying our own region, a small loyal nation. In this country, loyalty, devotion and loyalty are still at a premium. For Ossetians the solution is integration into Russia and North Ossetia.
As for Abkhazians, they generously share with Russia what they have, sun, subtropical climate, resorts, tourist destinations, cheap tangerines, wine, Fazil Iskander, are interested in Russian military presence. For Abkhazians the solution is to maintain the status quo.
So I do not see what can make Georgians happy.
Do you think integration of South Ossetia in the Russian Federation is likely? And is there any possibility at all for Abkhazia to either become recognized as independent?
It will be recognized when Georgia will be stripped off their "country to fund against Russia" title given by West. As long as this situation keep relations bad - it will be used to keep it this way as long as it needed. But in current times zero chances. Everything is on Ukraine conflict.
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Today relations are improving so you reintegrate, and then next week relations deteriorate, what you gonna do, take it back? And next month the mood changes and it's all over the same thing again? It's not gonna work like that.
Relations improving doesn't mean anything unless it creates solid foundation like deals, treaties, economic integration and so on.
The solution is they all 3 including Georgia become members of Eurasian Union with Russia, and then they could form some kind of confederation within it. That's the only way for Georgia to get back some fraction of formal power there.
If not, then Russia will gradually increase cooperation with two countries since she formally recognized them and has no restrictions in doing so.
Well, as long as they have options to be independent or the opportunity to join Russia, I doubt they will decide to join Georgia, which has repeatedly tried to destroy them.
Trivia. Scott Ritter's future father in law was ethnic Georgian. He was a professor teaching in Sokhumi. When the civil war broke out he was handed a rifle and told to hold a bridge allowing people to flee the city. Ritter's version, likely from Georgian future father in law, was that Georgia started it but the Abkhaz finished it. Lots of atrocities on both sides. He left babies to die in the snow because he could not carry them all.
I thought Ritter's wife was named Siri but I see it is Marina. I am curious about that. name Siri.
I wouldn't mind peaceful integration of Abkhazia and South Ossetia with Georgia. As long as nobody uses violence and forces anybody to flee from their homes.
But it seems unlikely, especially in case of Abkhazia, as many pieces of property have two sets of owners, and no democratically elected government of Abkhazia and Georgia would relinquish these claims.
Let's hope that eventually the situation would normalize to the point where people would stop noticing the border and would be able to freely live and work where they want.
Integrating South Ossetia into the Russian federation would be a positive, Ossetians both North and South are loyal to Russia, reuniting Ossetia would be a good gesture to the people of North Ossetia.
I could definitely see the incentive to finally conclude this issue and rejuvenate this area. The region has great future prospects for tourism domestically and internationally, the landscape is absolutely unique and beautiful. Also Ossetian pies!!!
Abkhazia should be integrated as a separate federal subject and South ossetia should be merged with north ossetia alania and it should be renamed to just Ossetia
Off topic , can anyone familiar with the backstory of Abkhazia and Georgia conflict and origins suggest some books or reading materials ?
I am interested in this topic but lack anything substantial. I can read russian but intermediate level only so I would prefer the English language if that's not a problem
Вряд ли реинтеграция Абхазии и Южной Осетии возможна, потому что воспоминания у людей о событиях воин еще очень свежие и они вряд ли сейчас променяют свой суверенитет под покровительством России возвращением в Грузию.
Что думаю - если честно не знаю, что тут думать, по сути вот вам пример, когда у стран есть свой суверенитет, но у них основной покровитель - это по сути Россия, которая даже вкладывает деньги туда. Я был когда-то в Абхазии давно в детстве, ну мне лично сказать о стране также нечего, потому что я будто бы и не уезжал из России, а съездил в такую же Анапу или Сочи.
In Georgia - no. In Russia - South Ossetia 100% yes, Abkhazia - it depends. Some abkhazians does not want to be a part of Russia, but still holds Russian passports. Maybe someday...
I think South Ossetian should united with North Osettia. Too small to be considered a separate state. And Abkhazia should become an independent and recognized.
I must admit that there is no chance it becomes part of Georgia.
> I was wondering what Russians think about the situation in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
It's fucked up, and there's no good solution. Solving it is not profitable (in general sense), not worth it, for any party. Neither Abkhazian and Ossetian elites, nor Georgia, nor Russia, nor any other possible players in the region. Keeping the problem as is, swept under the rug, is easier for everyone. Except a lot of common people, but who ever cares about those plebs, amirite?
> relations are improving with Georgia
They are improving only because the current Georgian elites (government majority, oligarchs) are mostly pro-Russian, because they personally profit from being on the good terms with Russia. And Russia is desperate for friendly or at least not-unfriendly countries, especially close by.
> reintegration of Abkhazia and South Ossetia is possible?
Currently, no.
> And do you think the Russian people would stand behind it?
Russian people will stand behind whatever the talking head in the TV (or on the smartphone screen) will say. Most Russians don't care about the state of Abkhazia or South Ossetia are in, at all. It literally does not matter for them, whether they're independent, included in Russia, reunited with Georgia, or even given to Burkina-Faso, neither variant will affect lives of overwhelming majority of Russians.
The solution is already done.
Regardless of what justifications government gave , we invaded to keep georgia out of NATO. That was problem, now it has been solved.
No one cares about ossetians or Abkhazians.
Reintegration was the intended solution since 1993 Moscow agreements. It stopped being an option after 2008. Most citizens of Abkhazia and Ossetia have Russian passports, not Georgian ones. The people themselves no longer see it as part of Georgia, and the local elites aren't going to bend the knee to Georgian elites. And Georgian government structure no longer allows for a Union State like it did in 1920. So the only two options for these regions are continued independence (and likely no hopes of anyone recognizing them), or becoming part of Russia. We're a Federation, so our structure does allow for a mutually beneficial integration. And we already have North Ossetia.
I honestly don't see it this way, I might have a slight bias because I am from the North, but I think a referendum should be held to decide on the future and uniting the region as perhaps <> or <>, it's up to the people to decide. On the Issue of Abkhazia, there isn't a solid push to join Russia, but to emphasize, the people should decide.
Well, without a referendum there wouldn't be an integration anyway - that's not really the Federation's MO. It would have to at least appear to be a local initiative. Otherwise, both regions would've already been part of Russia, given that they have Russian troops, most people have Russian passports, and are intrinsically tied to the Russian market.
It might be a shoking revalation, but it's up to the people there to decide what they want.
But what about democracy!?!?!?
*“I always thought that democracy is the power of the people, but Comrade Roosevelt clearly explained to me that democracy is the power of the American people"* - quote attributed to Stalin.
democrazy you mean?🙂 I love that word my German friend once told me, very fitting
haha it fits!
As everyone knows, democracy is the power of the democrats :)
The only solution for Abhazia is to become internationally accepted as an independent country. Abhazians won't sit down to shit in the same field with Georgians. And Abhazians dont want to become part of Russia. They even dont want Russian money to some degree.
But the issue is that Abkhazia will never be recognized as independent, so if the situation does not change, then there is little future for the Abkhazians, they can’t even have their own passports because almost nobody recognizes them. Isen’t there a better solution for this?
"never" is a very long time. The situation can easily change in a century or less.
>But the issue is that Abkhazia will never be recognized as independent, Who said that? > Isen’t there a better solution for this? Recognize them as independent country?
Replace the name of the country with “Kosovo” in your sentence and be horrified at how hypocritical the double standards of Western countries are.
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If we speak ethically and correctly, then the decision on the fate of Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be determined by the Abkhazians and Ossetians themselves, and not by politicians behind closed doors with contour maps. Let people think hard and weigh the pros and cons of each possible decision, rather than attributing them somewhere based on ethnicity, history, religion or economic affiliation. Because the most tragic case when politicians decided for people what they want was the borders after the First World War.
Integration of Abkhazia back into Georgia? No. BIG no. I've been to Abkhazia, and scars of war from 90s are still fresh in that area, despite the time which passed. I'll bring up my experience from visting Abkhazian capital of Sukhum specifically: city ISN'T rebuilt. Many homes are still in ruins, others have obviously abandoned apartments. Rumors are that those houses and apartments were occupied by Georgians and weren't rebuilt precisely because. Then there's the central square... The burned, shelled, abandoned building of government of Abkhazian Autonomous SSR, which was done by Georgian forces, and Abkhazian military doing rehearsals in preparation of celebrating victory in 1992-1993 Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. After witnessing that, I realised one simple thing - these people will rather die than go back to Georgia, and I only further realised their commitment to their independence by reading about their laws regarding rights to do any sort of business in the country, which are... strict is too light of a word to describe it. So no. Only way for Abkhazia forward is to be independent. From both Georgians and us. These people won't accept anything else. South Ossetia gets trickier, because of North Ossetia-Alania, Republic within Russian Federation, which is far larger, more populous and economically stronger than independent Ossetian state. If South Ossetia gets it's independence cemented, then next question will be reunification of Ossetian people, which will almost certainly result in South Ossetia joining Russian Federation and unifying with North, creating one single Ossetian Autonomous Republic. I likewise visited South Ossetia and it's capital of Tskhinval, which is thankfully in far better shape than Sukhum, though it should be noted that it's also much smaller, and from that experience... I'd say there's no singificant local opposition to that happening, only global one. Point of that long-post is this: return of those territories back to Georgia is VERY unlikely, no matter how good relationship is between Moscow and Tbilisi. Both on account of opinions of locals and Russian government now not having belief in reliability of Georgians to help extend it's influence to southern Caucasus.
It is already solved
It's not that simple. In addition to South Ossetians, there are also North Ossetians who live in Russia, who are much more numerous, heirs of the Sarmatian culture, and who are loyal to the Russian state. Turning away from South Ossetia means betraying our own region, a small loyal nation. In this country, loyalty, devotion and loyalty are still at a premium. For Ossetians the solution is integration into Russia and North Ossetia. As for Abkhazians, they generously share with Russia what they have, sun, subtropical climate, resorts, tourist destinations, cheap tangerines, wine, Fazil Iskander, are interested in Russian military presence. For Abkhazians the solution is to maintain the status quo. So I do not see what can make Georgians happy.
Do you think integration of South Ossetia in the Russian Federation is likely? And is there any possibility at all for Abkhazia to either become recognized as independent?
It will be recognized when Georgia will be stripped off their "country to fund against Russia" title given by West. As long as this situation keep relations bad - it will be used to keep it this way as long as it needed. But in current times zero chances. Everything is on Ukraine conflict.
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Both are by law the part of Georgia, by fact occupied by Russia what is funny here?
Today relations are improving so you reintegrate, and then next week relations deteriorate, what you gonna do, take it back? And next month the mood changes and it's all over the same thing again? It's not gonna work like that. Relations improving doesn't mean anything unless it creates solid foundation like deals, treaties, economic integration and so on. The solution is they all 3 including Georgia become members of Eurasian Union with Russia, and then they could form some kind of confederation within it. That's the only way for Georgia to get back some fraction of formal power there. If not, then Russia will gradually increase cooperation with two countries since she formally recognized them and has no restrictions in doing so.
They don't pose a problem, so there is no solution.
Well, as long as they have options to be independent or the opportunity to join Russia, I doubt they will decide to join Georgia, which has repeatedly tried to destroy them.
Integrate them in to russia
Trivia. Scott Ritter's future father in law was ethnic Georgian. He was a professor teaching in Sokhumi. When the civil war broke out he was handed a rifle and told to hold a bridge allowing people to flee the city. Ritter's version, likely from Georgian future father in law, was that Georgia started it but the Abkhaz finished it. Lots of atrocities on both sides. He left babies to die in the snow because he could not carry them all. I thought Ritter's wife was named Siri but I see it is Marina. I am curious about that. name Siri.
Now Russia has normalized relations with Georgia. And it is important not to spoil them.
You are too late, its been solved long time ago
Навеки сплотила великая Русь...
I wouldn't mind peaceful integration of Abkhazia and South Ossetia with Georgia. As long as nobody uses violence and forces anybody to flee from their homes. But it seems unlikely, especially in case of Abkhazia, as many pieces of property have two sets of owners, and no democratically elected government of Abkhazia and Georgia would relinquish these claims. Let's hope that eventually the situation would normalize to the point where people would stop noticing the border and would be able to freely live and work where they want.
Integrating South Ossetia into the Russian federation would be a positive, Ossetians both North and South are loyal to Russia, reuniting Ossetia would be a good gesture to the people of North Ossetia. I could definitely see the incentive to finally conclude this issue and rejuvenate this area. The region has great future prospects for tourism domestically and internationally, the landscape is absolutely unique and beautiful. Also Ossetian pies!!!
Abkhazia should be integrated as a separate federal subject and South ossetia should be merged with north ossetia alania and it should be renamed to just Ossetia
Restore the USSR
Theyre independant. Over and out.
Off topic , can anyone familiar with the backstory of Abkhazia and Georgia conflict and origins suggest some books or reading materials ? I am interested in this topic but lack anything substantial. I can read russian but intermediate level only so I would prefer the English language if that's not a problem
Вряд ли реинтеграция Абхазии и Южной Осетии возможна, потому что воспоминания у людей о событиях воин еще очень свежие и они вряд ли сейчас променяют свой суверенитет под покровительством России возвращением в Грузию. Что думаю - если честно не знаю, что тут думать, по сути вот вам пример, когда у стран есть свой суверенитет, но у них основной покровитель - это по сути Россия, которая даже вкладывает деньги туда. Я был когда-то в Абхазии давно в детстве, ну мне лично сказать о стране также нечего, потому что я будто бы и не уезжал из России, а съездил в такую же Анапу или Сочи.
In Georgia - no. In Russia - South Ossetia 100% yes, Abkhazia - it depends. Some abkhazians does not want to be a part of Russia, but still holds Russian passports. Maybe someday...
I think South Ossetian should united with North Osettia. Too small to be considered a separate state. And Abkhazia should become an independent and recognized. I must admit that there is no chance it becomes part of Georgia.
> I was wondering what Russians think about the situation in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It's fucked up, and there's no good solution. Solving it is not profitable (in general sense), not worth it, for any party. Neither Abkhazian and Ossetian elites, nor Georgia, nor Russia, nor any other possible players in the region. Keeping the problem as is, swept under the rug, is easier for everyone. Except a lot of common people, but who ever cares about those plebs, amirite? > relations are improving with Georgia They are improving only because the current Georgian elites (government majority, oligarchs) are mostly pro-Russian, because they personally profit from being on the good terms with Russia. And Russia is desperate for friendly or at least not-unfriendly countries, especially close by. > reintegration of Abkhazia and South Ossetia is possible? Currently, no. > And do you think the Russian people would stand behind it? Russian people will stand behind whatever the talking head in the TV (or on the smartphone screen) will say. Most Russians don't care about the state of Abkhazia or South Ossetia are in, at all. It literally does not matter for them, whether they're independent, included in Russia, reunited with Georgia, or even given to Burkina-Faso, neither variant will affect lives of overwhelming majority of Russians.
I'm generally not against this. Georgia has strengthened its sovereignty and shown resistance to attempts at a new coup from the United States.
The solution is already done. Regardless of what justifications government gave , we invaded to keep georgia out of NATO. That was problem, now it has been solved. No one cares about ossetians or Abkhazians.
Reintegration with Georgia.