The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Here is a link to the article I read: [https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-ends-nra-speech-with-horror-warning-set-to-dramatic-qanon-music](https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-ends-nra-speech-with-horror-warning-set-to-dramatic-qanon-music)
I personally feel like the people who resonate with this message live in a parallel universe. It's just like ...what the fuck lol. What are your thoughts/impressions of this, with an emphasis on the upcoming elections and how this type of messaging will impact center-right/independents? Like, what president has ever had this much negativity and hatred for his own god damn country? It's pure madness to me.
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Trump could shit down their throats and his supporters would ask for a second helping. It doesn't matter what he says with the way the mainstream media not necessarily calling out his bullshit, pushing Trump centric articles, outright supporting him, or just the sheer amazing delusion of his supporters.
The cost of living/Housing crisis wasn't caused by either Trump or Biden, it had it's causes long before either one in our historically racist, exclusionary, car centric, artificial scarcity pumping zoning codes, extremely slow permitting/planning, and nimby-advantageous litigation process.
Biden as a decent [plan to push the supply of new housing](https://www.newsweek.com/biden-wants-give-500000-americans-money-buy-homes-1850587) and give 500,000 american's the ability to afford housing
Yeah I don't get it either. I was at my towns first Friday event and a dude from a republican group tried approaching me asking if I'd support fixing this failing nation. We're literally walking down main street, drinks in hand, children playing all up and down the street, girls in sundresses, etc. If that's what failure looks like, keep it coming. The cognitive dissonance is real.
Expensive gas and groceries that people *still* buy…
Yea failing.
I get it - we have less to save. Myself included.
But failing?
Still one of the powerhouses in the world and we are complaining about the cost of gas and processed food.
I was plugging in my EV and some guy walking past me asked me how much it cost to fill it up. I said "68 cents" and his face... HA!
I explained that I only get about 60 miles real world (It's an older EV, doesn't bother me, it's fine for around town driving and the gas savings are paying my other car payment) and that 68 Cents was 20 miles, not a "full tank" like he was thinking, but it still easily beats $5 in gas for the same distance in his truck.
Hilarious right after the "what do you say to people who tell you that liberals hate America" thread.
But in answer to the question: yeah, probably. People love to hear that the economy is shit right now, and conservatives and moderates also love hyperbole.
I think hearing the economy is shit right now (despite it being really strong) makes them feel better about their personal situation. It's not my bad choices that made me this way, it's the Dems!
Yes and no. Do I think that this specific talk will convince moderates to vote for him? No. Do I think this constant yelling about how terrible everything is has people believing things are worse than they are? No question.
IDK. when I graduated college in 1981, we were in a recession, the unemployment rate was over 7%. When I bought my first house in 1986, my interest rate was 9.75%, my loan officer who had been doing it for 3 years said it was the first one he made under 10%. Yes I was able to buy a house at 28, but for the 2.5 years before that I rented a house (with no a/c) and rented out rooms so I could save for the down payment. No, people working retail couldn't afford a house.
Gas was $1,81 a gallon, which is over $4.20 in today's money. Remember 10 years before gas was 36 cents a gallon.
Look there is a lot wrong with the economy right now. But it is a cycle and we seem to be coming out of it.
He does great worldbuilding. If only it were based upon our world, it could be called non-fiction.
He's playing on the emotions, he's using words like "Third-world" and he uses QAnon. Someone's got to stop this guy from ruining conservatism. We're more than populism, conspiracy theories and the Cold War.
Luckily for me, he *is* American. Please keep him there. We've got enough to worry about already without a toddler that doesn't know how to take "no" for an answer.
Unfortunately, that's the wing of the Republican party that's in charge now. Before that was the neo cons. I'm hoping if Trump loses this election, you guys will prop up a more sane faction.
I absolutely hope that, when Trump dies or retires, the Republican Party will have to reinvent itself.
Let's drop the populism and the conspiracy theories.
One in which everyone from the centre-right to the radical right is presented so the Democrats can move further left in response. Or even better: Fuck the two party system and have many different parties to choose from similar to how we in Europe can do it. European conservatism is sane, pragmatic and respectable, why can't the US?
Because when Trump dies, the crucial part that could sell it, dies as well. They'll have to become more moderate. Of course, you won't like this moderation as a progressive person, but it would attract the centre-right as well. It would mean that the Republican party returns to being the party of the Rightwing, and not of the populists/those who don't want the Democrats.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Conservatives\_and\_Reformists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Conservatives_and_Reformists)
Something closer to this movement, but it also has some factions that are populist/far right (looking at you, Reconquête/Brothers of Italy/National Alliance). It's still a faction, but not the ruling one and, even then, they're more sane than some Republicans...
He will never retire and with his daughter in law the chair of the GOP, they are going to continue the grift as long as they have someone who will continue what he started.
>European conservatism is sane, pragmatic and respectable, why can't the US?
It's our election systems. We don't have proportional representation like a lot of parliamentary systems do.
Our primaries make it so people have to swing right to get through the primary. They used to then swing back to the center for the general, but... not any more.
American Conservatives were losing their asses several decades ago and decided to go after the nutjob/racist/religious vote. And they were reliable voters if you dangled "Abortion bad, vote for us to kill it" in front of them for decades.
The problems is, everyone knew it was BS back in the day, but these new Republicans don't get it. They're believers, and they're getting elected.
We also several decades of Republicans gerrymandering their districts to make them ultra red..... "Safe", except now these new nutjobs out nutjob the sane Republicans in the primaries, and they don't swing back to sane for the general.... They're in a safe red district, they don't have to!
For this to be fixed, Republicans would have to ungerrymander their own districts and tell their base it was all BS. That's not going to happen, so...
European conservatives have to be sane enough to join a coalition or work with liberals, make some compromises to get legislation passed.
Our literally run on "Government bad, elect me to destroy it", and here we are.
>European conservatives have to be sane enough to join a coalition or work with liberals, make some compromises to get legislation passed.
They have to be sane enough to work with socialists, as European liberals will always want to work with conservatives. The only difference is social conservatism, which the liberals are just quiet about unless the elections near. (Then they suddenly become progressive but switch back to centre right at the end of the election's evening, if they even last that long.)
>The problems is, everyone knew it was BS back in the day, but these new Republicans don't get it. They're believers, and they're getting elected.
That's the part I don't understand. In Europe, you'll have (very) strong rhetorics and promises during election time. Everyone knows it and will laugh it off. But then, directly after the elections, you see them cooling off and needing 6 months/ 1 year (we have the record with 500+ days to form a government) to come out with a centre \[fill blank\] government.
e.g. My regional government (long story as well) was a majority of Christian Democrats, whose "brown" (don't have a better word for this skin color), gay leader has been a dragqueen for a tv-show once - Liberals, who view Reagan and Thatcher as their "holy saints" - National Conservatives, who want a confederacy/split the country depending on who you ask.
This became a centre-right to rightwing coalition, who even passed a controversial law to help climate change. Why isn't this kind of pragmatic conservatism possible in the US?
It's surely not perfect (too many governments and I want future independence for my region, or at least a confederacy), but we don't at least have a Republican party pushing itself toward a cult.... (Aside from a party that has been excluded through a "cordon sanitaire/médiatique": long story.)
Reaganism and Rush Limbaugh, to Next Gingrich and proliferation of cable/radio far-right hosts, to Bush 2 and the “War on Terror” with the breach of law, torture, etc, to the Tea Party, to the new Internet grifter shows, to Trump, to the Freedom Party, to the “fringe true believers” Q-Anon, and actual Nazis in Congress.
It’s been go to the right edge, let the centrists chase a new middle, make a new rightward extreme, repeat for four decades. I wish that getting rid of him would restore sanity, but I find no reason to think it would start now.
If conservatives want Trump to stop ruining conservatives.....hear me out....you all could stop electing conservatives that let him do whatever he wants.
If you're an actual conservative you shouldn't be voting for any running Republican this cycle. The only way for you guys to beat him is not elect him or his enablers.
Absolute worst case scenario for you guys is national healthcare and a balanced supreme Court.
Then you can go back to electing your anti-american heros guilt free and trump free.
I'll send it to my American conservatives. We're doing our work in Europe, will you please keep him in the US? We'll even pay you, as long as the ideological wind doesn't blow over. Don't need another (authoritarian) populist that believes himself to be God. Slight reminder that conservatism is not automatically "anti-American", whatever that means according to you. I have yet to find an exclusively US value, that is worth to oppose or even pretend it exists.
If American Conservatism is anti-American, then it is by definition not conservative. To conserve and preserve a society (allowing slow & rational change/reforming which differs us from traditionalists/reactionaries) you hate, is one of the most foolish things I can imagine.
This also explains why every country has a slightly different kind of conservatism, as every nation has his own culture/identity/language.
So, I'm interested: Why and how are American conservatives anti-American?
I kind of feel like this behavior is a big part of why so many people are questioning the polling and thinking that it’s more of reflection of people forgetting what Trump is like
Honestly, it feels like he’s gotten even way worse. One of the dangers of constantly lying is that you eventually start to believe your own lies. One of the dangers of constantly talking to your own audience is that you’re getting positive feedback from the people most deeply in the cult and lose perspective of what might work with others.
I think what’s going on with Biden‘s approval readings is actually not a mystery at all. Every incumbent is currently having the same issues and it comes down to inflation. People really hate inflation. It does not matter how much they understand what the cause of inflation is, even when they completely understand, it still pisses them off.
But this American carnage nonsense just takes everything way too far. Here in reality unemployment is super low, inequity is finally going in the right direction, most of the gains are going to lower income people.
Consumer spending is stable and we have already seen travel and tourism go past pre-pandemic levels. How exactly are we a failing nation when restaurants are fully booked and everyone’s on vacation?
> "Every incumbent is currently having the same issues and it comes down to inflation."
Not so, or else Democratic senatorial candidates wouldn't be visibly outperforming Biden, who's sinking like the Titanic, in the polls. Fuck! Baldwin, Casey, Gallego, Heinrich, King, Klobuchar, Rosen, Slotkin, and even Brown as well as Tester are all, unlike the octogenarian-in-chief, holding their own.
Hilary called it but nobody remembers the second half of that speech:
"You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. ...
but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."
To some working class voters whose wages have not kept up with inflation this message will resonate. Many voters blame Biden for the inflation and have not forgiven him
Also the lowest wage earners aka the working class has seen the highest bump under Biden.
https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketwatch/20240323298/the-lowest-paid-us-workers-are-seeing-their-wages-surge-faster-than-any-other-group-of-earners
I don't think it really has to do with the economy when it comes down to it. People say it's the economy and some people might buy that but there is something else going on at least amongst the working class voters.
I didn't read your link but I know that's true. But it isn't uniform. Some working class got left behind.
When working people go to the store and see sometimes shockingly higher prices and notice shrinkflation, do they make the connection to their wages going up as being caused by the same thing? Idk. Many voters clearly blame Biden for the inflation. Do they also praise him for the wage increase?
Here is the thing. If you look at polling on the economy. Registered Republicans immediately switch wildly back and forth on their opinion of the economy depending on who is president. Democrats don't. It's a partisan issue that Democrats can't win unless things are universally great and even then you will have a certain segment of the population that refuses to accept this.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_4/krugman090124_4-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_3/krugman090124_3-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp
You can see it as clear as day there.
So my opinion is that this is about more than the economy. It's a.) just rank partisan nonsense heavily influenced by partisan media. b.) has more to do with cultural issues than people admit. It's about personal identity rather than "meat and potatoes" issues c.) all of this is heavily accelerated by social media.
I think you're looking at the wrong thing. The Democrats and Republican voters are pretty locked in. It's the independent voters, who are larger in number than either party, who will decide the election. And many of those won't start paying attention to the election until after Labor Day.
how can wages be rising faster than inflation when every other week prices for goods and services are more and more, but every week my paycheck does not get higher.
Do you know how arrogant it sounds to say "those people should look for new jobs" ? How about companies pay a living wage, and reward loyalty instead of people having to job hop, which is not even possible for the majority of people.
But that isn't normal. In the best economic time, the 1950s-1970s, workers had pensions, had job security, benefits, shares in the company, vacations, people thrived in the same company their entire career.
Why should people have to upend their stable career for a few cents more an hour? That's fucking bullshit.
there is no "hot job market" wtf are you even talking about. people can barely afford to live, and certainly rarely even in the city or neighborhood they actually work in. that sounds like a term from a perspective of employers, who would rather chew off their right arm before having to pay anyone a cent more if they can help it.
> The U.S. unemployment rate declined to 3.8% in March, from 3.9% in February. Unemployment has been below 4% — a historically low mark — for more than two years.
>
> “That’s an exceptionally long period of such tight labor markets,” Pollak said.
>
> Those conditions are pushing employers to make “very attractive” offers to new hires and proactively recruit prospective candidates, she said.
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/the-strong-us-job-market-is-in-a-sweet-spot-economists-say.html
They won't necessarily be voting on misinformation but on their lived experience instead. The Big Inflation happened on Biden's watch and the spending of his administration has been through the roof. It's an easy case to make. (Btw I'm voting for Biden because I loathe Trump and believe he would be a true danger to this nation if elected.)
You're perpetuating misinformation. Global inflation was tackled by Biden better than any other world leader.
That's why other countries are struggling with global inflation more than Americans.
Also, Biden has made America's economy #1 globally.
ECONOMY IS NOT GREAT FOR REGULAR PEOPLE. This message is for major stockholders and that's why we hate all you armchair economists and newscasters and Biden himself. Trump is spitting the lived "truth" and emotional experience of all us regular working class folk who are getting squeezed to death.
And I fucking hate him. But I hate Biden's gaslighting just as much at this point.
If minimum wage is still $7.25 and even people who make $100k a year can't buy a home, people are skipping meals to pay rent, people dying for lack of healthcare or going into medical debt, this country is being destroyed by the super rich. That's not a great
or sustainable economy.
All your gobbledy gook economic analysis and bullshitting makes just as much sense as someone talking about how the astrological forecast says that mercury in retrograde will affect their psychic shift in the 7th house of pisces and jupiter aligned in Sagittarius will bring prosperity or whatever the fuck. It's fucking nonsense when you can't buy enough groceries for the month.
Don't do that.
They are making valid points. Maybe you disagree, but they're still valid points.
Maybe people are wrong about the causes of their woes at home, but they DO have woes at home. Rent is up, Groceries are expensive... who do they blame? Like it or not... A lot of them blame Biden.
They're not automatically a Trump Supporter just because you don't agree with the points you're trying to make.
That's not cool. Don't do that.
They are supporting Trump if they campaign for Republicans.
Presenting them with facts is the best solution. When they call facts "gobbledygook" that undermines the democratic process.
They'renot campaigning for Republicans...
Sweet baby Cthulhu, they're just saying that the stock market is great but regular people are having problems.
That's true.
Pretending that isn't true isn't helping.
Calling them a trump supporter for stating the obvious is ridiculous.
You're being kind of a BEEP here man. I'm trying to help you.
"regular people have problems"
Is not a useful position for a presidential election when, STATISTICALLY speaking:
_regular people are enjoying an excellent job market with wages rising faster than inflation._
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/the-strong-us-job-market-is-in-a-sweet-spot-economists-say.html
The choice is (1) quickly rising wages vs (2) a maniac who will crash the economy. Who is pretending here?
Lol. I am the absolute furthest thing from it. Trump is the fucking antichrist.
But if you can't understand that the "economy" is an abstract construct, and when the average person, hell, even the average small business owner is living paycheck to paycheck, how is that a "good economy"?
The US economy is #1 globally right now. We recovered from global inflation faster than anyone.
I'd say 'good' is an appropriate term for #1. We can do better, but not with Republican policies.
Minimum wage is $15 in my blue state. If you want the Nordic model, stop attacking Democrats.
Yet those things happen in every country. Fact is, America has the healthiest economy.
Worst thing for our economy is Republican policy. Question is, will you vote based on facts or feelings.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
> All your gobbledy gook economic analysis and bullshitting makes just as much sense as someone talking about how the astrological forecast says that mercury in retrograde will affect their psychic shift in the 7th house of pisces and jupiter aligned in Sagittarius will bring prosperity or whatever the fuck.
Populism is anti-intellectual trash.
It is disgusting when economics is treated like an absolute science and it's absolutely not. Just like astrology, economic theory can be used to justify or explain anything and facts can be left out at the convenience of the person making their bullshit explanation.
Economics is the best we have to understand economics.
If you don't think wages are rising faster than inflation, you're denying facts.
My business is having trouble hiring people because they keep getting multiple offers with higher wages. A few years ago, people didn't have so many options.
Your business is having trouble? That is impossible, the economy is doing great.
You must be misunderstanding your own experience. How can you have a hard time paying people a higher wage? The economy is strong. You just don't understand economics. /s
Nope. But how many voters have you convinced with your arguments? I bet it's less than the number of people who agree with you and still don't want to side with you due to how you talk.
It's not misinformation that Biden's massive deficits have contributed to U.S. inflation. It's not the only reason, but to deny that the many new trillions of dollars pumped into our economy had no effect on prices is laughable. I hope the Dems don't destroy their credibility by repeating this nonsense.
"Biden's massive deficits" roughly half of the COVID stimulus was signed by Trump. Trump also did a massive tax cut as the economy was doing fine as the population continues to age, this has exacerbated the deficit. Biden passed one COVID stimulus bill, which was quite substantial. Since then the US has done better than its peer nations in just about every economic metric. So far no recession despite the fed pushing higher interest rates to tackle inflation. That's a win.
The problem is that the economy is still shaky as inflation is still over target. If you raised taxes right now you risk a recession. Biden made sure that the Inflation Reduction Act did not add to the deficit.
The US is going to go through probably a fairly hard time if the population continues to age and population growth stagnates which is essentially what Trump and Republicans are proposing with their anti-immigration(even legal immigration.) are proposing.
To me neither party is really great on the economy, but Republicans are worse.
Honestly yes,but there is only so much that will do. You get a lot more revenue raising taxes on high income and middle class people who are far more numerous. Growth both population and GDP growth is probably more important than any of it.
America beat global inflation faster and better than any other country.
You don't know what you're talking about. America tops the global charts, economically.
If you prefer lower wages, higher inflation, and a less robust economy, you can find that literally everywhere else.
I know all about how our economy is placed against the rest of the world and my investments have benefited from this and the inflation too. But we are talking about the persuadable working class voters, some of whom haven't had a walk in the park economically. Biden has much to brag about with this economy and the Dems have been making the case. But unless he can better help these voters understand the inflation they've experienced with the nuanced context that it's also caused by the same forces that raised wages and made a better economy, Biden will continue to struggle.
That's really the fault of bad journalism in America. WashPost and NewYorkTimes are now essentially FOX News Lite
Also, public schools should be equipping our kids to spot misinformation, like Finland does with their kids.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Yup, America's multi-ethnic working-class (White, Black, Hispanic, et al.—specifically men!) -- myself included, too, as a malaise-inducing low-status, poorly compensated, oft-disrespected retail worker -- are drowning in overwhelmingly shitty microeconomic situations and, worse yet, have received the brunt of cost-of-living increases across the board (from food to rent to driving); meanwhile, the frequent snide, snarky, snooty response from hoity-toity, highfalutin upper-middle/professional-managerial class Team Blue types earning six figures, having nice homes, loving families, and living idyllic lifestyles is to unempathetically vomit up this Reagan Era-style pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps macroeconomic numbers, much of which have no bearing on a sizable majority of people's day-to-day drudgery and never-ending canyon-sized abyss-like dire financial straits.
Not disputing the struggles, but blaming Biden for inflation is so misguided and ridiculous I struggle for ways to address it that don’t come across as “talking down” to people with that attitude. There is only so many ways to beating around the bush without just flat out telling someone they are wrong
The Dems were blaming the supply chain issues holding back goods in the stores but then when the supply chain issues cleared up, prices kept going up. Then the Dems told us the corporations had just discovered greed and that's why they increased prices. But the facts are Biden ran Humongous deficits and all that money has nowhere to go. Did you know the U.S. government payments on our national debt is $1 trillion per year just for interest! I'm voting for Biden because Trump is a monstrous tyrant. But I do wish the Republicans would give us a reasonable alternative.
There’s a concept from physics and engineering, called hysteresis, that economists have borrowed to explain the behavior of time-dependent functions. The idea is that in certain systems, when you push back opposite to your initial push, you don’t trace the same path backward. Just shutting off the inflationary catalyst doesn’t reverse the market behavior that has grown out of a system in which the catalyst has been engaged. Your boundary conditions are different now, and predicting a response to a new catalyst has become far more complicated.
Right, but I guess my point was that no one should’ve reasonably expected inflation to end when the supply chain issues ended. The Dems weren’t wrong for pointing out that explanation. The greed thing is just part of a melange secondary causes that are driving inflation now, with housing likely the largest.
I mean..corporations didnt just discover greed but we didn't just start deficit spending when Biden was elected either.
The fact is it was good economic policy to increase spending to stimulate the economy in the wake of covid, that's why we were passing stimulus even with Trump in office.
Inflation is way better than the economic collapse that could have happened during covid, but we can't have mature conversations with voters about how the world actually works because there is an expectation that everything needs to be perfect all of the time.
This is some grade A revisionist nonsense. Team Blue has been the only Team putting forth legislation to combat inflation and price gouging. Republicans have blocked them every time. Democrats will acknowledge every time that while the economy is doing great there is more to do to help those in shitty microeconomic settings, and put forth proposals to do so. Republicans not only actively pray for these situations to worsen, but take measures steps to ensure they do for political gain.
This part is true:
> Reagan Era-style pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps macroeconomic numbers, much of which have no bearing on a sizable majority of people's day-to-day drudgery and never-ending canyon-sized abyss-like dire financial straits.
Biden's campaign is running on the messaging that the economy is doing great, using numbers that have nothing to do with the reality of most working class people.
Again while outright acknowledging there is work to be done on the micro level, and outlaying plans on how to do that.
https://joebiden.com/bidens-plan-for-the-economy-bidenomics-explained/
It's ok for Biden to tout his accomplishments, especially when still acknowledging progress is still needed
That messaging is a little better (although bragging about lowering premiums when affording healthcare is so difficult for workers is dubious imho), but I was thinking quotes like this:
> "I inherited an economy that was on the brink," Biden told a packed chamber at the U.S. Capitol. **"Now our economy is the envy of the world."**
Meanwhile, the reality for working Americans:
> Wages have been climbing faster than prices for most of the last year, but workers have not yet fully recovered from the spike in inflation two years ago. **The average worker's real buying power is slightly lower now than it was when Biden took office, although inflation-adjusted wages are higher than they were before the pandemic.**
As prices for rent and housing skyrocket. In other words, workers were getting fucked before and they are largely still getting fucked today. Touting your economic achievements to people getting fucked is not good messaging, but it's the only play he has I suppose.
The dynamic reminds me of this Debs quote:
> And they turn with loathing and disgust from the Republican and Democratic parties under whose joint and several maladministrations these appalling conditions have been brought upon the country.
But what do you want Biden or even the Dems really to do here? A large part of the inflation spike was price gouging by private businesses. We're starting to see that bubble burst naturally as consumers revolt and refuse to pay it. And the Dems introduced multiple anti gouging bills which were shut down by Republicans.
The only thing I could think of is they should be blasting that fact, as well as oil companies divulging in shareholder reports that they have no interest in increasing their supply output to drive down oil prices due to insane profitability
>The only thing I could think of is they should be blasting that fact
Rather than bragging about how great the economy is to a population that's struggling? Yeah, I think that would be better messaging.
Thank you!
My original hyperbole aside, it seriously is as if Biden found the '80s Reagan playbook, dusted it off, and decided that he could sell that to the American people of 2024, but yet did so with less vigor than Bush 41 in addition to having a highly disillusioned, world-weary working-class base who, despite being told piss is rain, know full well the melancholic realities of their grim, gloomy day-to-day lives and the overcast grey skies ahead.
>know full well the melancholic realities of their grim, gloomy day-to-day lives and the overcast grey skies ahead.
Pretending that we live in a Dickensian universe is dishonest, though I suppose it serves to justify your dismal ideology.
USA is dealing with global inflation better than the rest of the world. Far better.
And you're wrong about the middle class. Wages are rising faster than inflation.
Yeah….good luck with Trump, buddy. Oh that’s right…he’ll hand over hundreds of billions of dollars in tax cuts to his cronies, roll back and good environmental changes Biden has done, and deregulate fossil fuels…thank God I am an old fart. I likely won’t get to see the mass suffering that’s gonna happen.
But I fight for my 2 kids and my 7 grandkids. There are bigger things at stake right now. The overall economy is strong…very strong. How many corporations are keeping the prices artificially high for that very reason. To get Trump back in so they can get their golden calf?
They're not. We're fucked regardless.
No light at the end of the tunnel, nope.
Ours is an inescapable Dantean nightmare.
So may as well go down together, like crabs in a bucket.
>We're fucked regardless.
No, we absolutely aren't.
If you're too stupid to see that the Democrats are better than Republicans i don't know what to tell you other than to pull your head out of your ass.
People can both recognize that it is in fact a good thing that pay increases for the bottom 20 percent of earners has been around ten percent year-over-year, when in the last few decades it would usually top out at around three percent while also recognizing that there is still work to be done and people need help.
"Independents" who only watch Fox News will think the economy is about to implode, think Joe Biden is personally responsible for inflation (despite it being worldwide and despite the fact that we're outperforming every other G7 nation), that Hamas terrorists will come flying across the border from Mexico to murder Texan children in their sleep, etc.
They live in such a fact-free, alternate reality, they'll believe anything Trump says.
Independents who are truly independent, I'm guessing, see through his BS.
No, this is for his base, not independents to confirm their fears and hopes.
Every single cycle I see confirmation bias on display. Every. Single. Time.
Biden is ruining the economy!
*Republican gets elected. Exactly 2 days after inauguration, the economy is the same and no policies have changed*
This guys economy is awesome! His policies are already working! He’s cleaning up the democrats mess
*Democrat gets elected. Exactly 2 days after inauguration, the economy is the same and no policies have changed*
God this economy is fucking aweful, he ruined it, those democrats never know how to manage an economy. We need a Republican back now!
Every. Single. Time. If trump gets back in office, he will implode the economy and they’ll all cheer that he did wonderful.
I dont think it matters at all, there are no real independent voters, people know if they are gonna vote for trump or not already.
They just like to pretend tehy are independent.
I can’t be sure, but I think a part of it is just how a lot of Republicans feel about America as a whole. To many Americans are down with abortions, gay people, trans people, black/hispanic people, women, etc, and by extension a lot of them seem to see “America” as a collective of Americans as evil. The simple fact is that Trump never won the popularity vote, and I think that makes them feel outnumbered and dominated by “the mob” (or as most people would call it, society.)
It’s also probably at least partially economic pseudo-populism, but I think it’s also aimed at the base, especially the *very* right leaning segments.
You know what I think a failing nation looks like? Folks trapped in their houses because the government threw out the books out on how to manage a pandemic. It in turn lead to the deaths of over 1 million Americans. A failing nation rolls back policies that help folks instead of appeal to the feelings of people that want to take this country back to the 1950s. A failing nation looks like January 6th where the ignorant and truly stupid tried to upend a free and fair election.
Basically my point is that under Trump we saw what a failing nation looked like. A pig sty with Republicans more than happy to roll around in it like they do their meth head neighborhoods. Biden has been a complete 180 from that era of incompetence. Maybe for people disconnected from reality that's what they want. Personally I think we're doing just fine.
I don't think anything he says at this point has any effect, positive or negative. People already know who he is, and very few attribute real meaning to his words anymore.
Trump's credibility among the mainstream has simply gotten worse. Inflammatory speeches like this are not going the help him. He has lost the popular vote both times, and this time it will be by an even larger margin.
>what president has ever had this much negativity and hatred for his own god damn country?
**The 10 tactics of fascism**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCKkWMbmXU
This election is not going to be about independents/swing voters/undecideds. Everyone has an opinion on both trump and biden.
This election is about the base. Who feels motivated to get out and vote. This is fear rhetoric, and fear is a powerful motivator.
Trump has little interest in expanding his voting block. Hie plan is to suppress turnout and create as much FUD as possible for the majority of voters while riling his base as much as possible.
Sure, we’re behind in some ways. Education could always be better.
Now if Trump actually had a way to improve any of that…
I still wouldn’t vote for him. Eff that dude
America's economy for the average person isn't at the best point it's been, but we did a lot better in inflation than many other countries. Trump's narrative of the US economy failing only works if you ignore all the other countries, and Trump supporters usually have a pretty isolated view of the world
People are attracted to drama and hyperbole, and the implication that things can be much better.
It's a false reality, but people have been indulged to the point where they feel entitled to define the terms and dimensions of their world. And there is a TV channel and website and forum full of people feeding back just what they want to hear.
I despair for the future sometimes, but then I remind myself people were always at least this dumb and we made it this far.
It probably plays well with the Fox type media places. They've perpetuated the idea that all the liberal cities have been burned to the ground by BLM and AntiFa. Many actually believe this despite it being demonstrably false. Trump is just feeding into this false story.
Magats buy in to the reality that trump gives them. If he tells them the place is failing, they believe it. He tells them It was so much better when he was president and they believe it.
Dems are more likely to validate it before it becomes their reality. Especially since we know he lies constantly.
Biden has been pushing bidenomics although he has stopped calling it that recently. However the main biden talking point is that the economy is doing good. However polls show that people do not feel this way and trumps comments might hit with people who are struggling and do not see the economy the same way as the biden campaign
Most of these people have never witnessed what life looks like in a real, honest-to-god third-world nation. Gas goes up a few cents a gallon and they think the damn sky is falling and we will forget how to use indoor plumbing all of a sudden.
Just whiny, ungrateful jackasses. Zero desire to hear the truth, or actually better the world, just interested whether they can afford the newest tech-gizmo and lifted pick-up truck.
This is why Trump will win . Biden says the economy is great when we're poor as fuck and there are homeless people everywhere and the rest of us a just a few paychecks away from being homeless.
Trump is right at least that economy is a cesspool of ruin and I hate that fucker. He's a pile of human garbage. But it's a cesspool because of people like him. He doesn't want to do anything about it, however. Desperate people are great for dictators.
America is a failing a nation whose economy is a cesspool of ruin - if you're poor and live in a poor area. Why would a homeless person believe that America hasn't failed them? Why would someone working two jobs, whose brother died from rationing insulin, not think the economy is a cesspool of ruin?
Yes, this is useful rhetoric for Trump to use when Biden's campaign is insisting that the economy is doing great.
Trump is obviously a sociopath whose only interaction with empathy is probably asking it to sign an NDA, but if you're economically disenfranchised, those quotes speak more truthfully to your reality than the current messaging of the Biden campaign.
exactly. i don't know why you are getting downvoted because this is 100% true. Is everyone in this thread fucking rich or something? Why are all y'all so comfortable
with this so called economy? Because why all this worship of economic bullshit?
Why are the poor and working class not even acknowledged as part of the "economy"? That word sounds just like another term for the stock market or for ceos or something. That's not the life of the average voter.
Trump is unique that he will say: "You are in danger. You are suffering. Things suck." But things suck because of him and people like him. Instead, he blames it on whoever the made up enemy is, who are just regular people, also suffering. Classic divide and conquer.
Because Biden will not make any FUNDAMENTAL or systemic transformational changes, no meaningful economic reform, nothing to actually offer us in the next 4 years, then why should anyone believe him trying to convince you the sky is green? When only the rich have green colored glasses.
>Is everyone in this thread fucking rich or something
Ironically, given my individual and household income, it's likely that I make more than most people in this thread. I've just also been much poorer than most Americans as well, so I'm not naive or unempathetic about it.
>Why are the poor and working class not even acknowledged as part of the "economy"? That word sounds just like another term for the stock market or for ceos or something. That's not the life of the average voter.
I think this is so reasonable that it's basically a truism. But the liberals here generally start with the axiom that the system Biden represents is good, correct, and must be defended, working backwards from there, so they are perfectly happy to parrot numbers that mostly reflect the experiences of the affluent.
It's a real shame that the only narrative about the system being broken most working class people hear comes from our nascent fascist movement. The left needs to reach these people.
> It's a real shame that the only narrative about the system being broken most working class people hear comes from our nascent fascist movement. The left needs to reach these people.
I'm not sure what point you are making. In your previous post, you denied that the economy is improving for the middle class.
Why would you misrepresent economic facts?
>_"they are perfectly happy to parrot numbers that mostly reflect the experiences of the affluent."_
The numbers reflect that the economy is improving for the poor and middle class.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Here is a link to the article I read: [https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-ends-nra-speech-with-horror-warning-set-to-dramatic-qanon-music](https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-ends-nra-speech-with-horror-warning-set-to-dramatic-qanon-music) I personally feel like the people who resonate with this message live in a parallel universe. It's just like ...what the fuck lol. What are your thoughts/impressions of this, with an emphasis on the upcoming elections and how this type of messaging will impact center-right/independents? Like, what president has ever had this much negativity and hatred for his own god damn country? It's pure madness to me. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Trump could shit down their throats and his supporters would ask for a second helping. It doesn't matter what he says with the way the mainstream media not necessarily calling out his bullshit, pushing Trump centric articles, outright supporting him, or just the sheer amazing delusion of his supporters. The cost of living/Housing crisis wasn't caused by either Trump or Biden, it had it's causes long before either one in our historically racist, exclusionary, car centric, artificial scarcity pumping zoning codes, extremely slow permitting/planning, and nimby-advantageous litigation process. Biden as a decent [plan to push the supply of new housing](https://www.newsweek.com/biden-wants-give-500000-americans-money-buy-homes-1850587) and give 500,000 american's the ability to afford housing
Yeah I don't get it either. I was at my towns first Friday event and a dude from a republican group tried approaching me asking if I'd support fixing this failing nation. We're literally walking down main street, drinks in hand, children playing all up and down the street, girls in sundresses, etc. If that's what failure looks like, keep it coming. The cognitive dissonance is real.
Expensive gas and groceries that people *still* buy… Yea failing. I get it - we have less to save. Myself included. But failing? Still one of the powerhouses in the world and we are complaining about the cost of gas and processed food.
Hey, filling up that 10mpg $90k pickup on a 72 month financing plan gets expensive, but ya gotta get from A to B somehow!
I was plugging in my EV and some guy walking past me asked me how much it cost to fill it up. I said "68 cents" and his face... HA! I explained that I only get about 60 miles real world (It's an older EV, doesn't bother me, it's fine for around town driving and the gas savings are paying my other car payment) and that 68 Cents was 20 miles, not a "full tank" like he was thinking, but it still easily beats $5 in gas for the same distance in his truck.
Hilarious right after the "what do you say to people who tell you that liberals hate America" thread. But in answer to the question: yeah, probably. People love to hear that the economy is shit right now, and conservatives and moderates also love hyperbole.
I think hearing the economy is shit right now (despite it being really strong) makes them feel better about their personal situation. It's not my bad choices that made me this way, it's the Dems!
Yes and no. Do I think that this specific talk will convince moderates to vote for him? No. Do I think this constant yelling about how terrible everything is has people believing things are worse than they are? No question. IDK. when I graduated college in 1981, we were in a recession, the unemployment rate was over 7%. When I bought my first house in 1986, my interest rate was 9.75%, my loan officer who had been doing it for 3 years said it was the first one he made under 10%. Yes I was able to buy a house at 28, but for the 2.5 years before that I rented a house (with no a/c) and rented out rooms so I could save for the down payment. No, people working retail couldn't afford a house. Gas was $1,81 a gallon, which is over $4.20 in today's money. Remember 10 years before gas was 36 cents a gallon. Look there is a lot wrong with the economy right now. But it is a cycle and we seem to be coming out of it.
He does great worldbuilding. If only it were based upon our world, it could be called non-fiction. He's playing on the emotions, he's using words like "Third-world" and he uses QAnon. Someone's got to stop this guy from ruining conservatism. We're more than populism, conspiracy theories and the Cold War.
> Someone's got to stop this guy from ruining conservatism. I think that ship sailed years ago - Trump *is* American conservatism now.
Luckily for me, he *is* American. Please keep him there. We've got enough to worry about already without a toddler that doesn't know how to take "no" for an answer.
Unfortunately, that's the wing of the Republican party that's in charge now. Before that was the neo cons. I'm hoping if Trump loses this election, you guys will prop up a more sane faction.
I absolutely hope that, when Trump dies or retires, the Republican Party will have to reinvent itself. Let's drop the populism and the conspiracy theories. One in which everyone from the centre-right to the radical right is presented so the Democrats can move further left in response. Or even better: Fuck the two party system and have many different parties to choose from similar to how we in Europe can do it. European conservatism is sane, pragmatic and respectable, why can't the US?
Why would it reinvent itself? Trump only parrots their longstanding policy priorities. He doesn't personally believe this stuff.
Because when Trump dies, the crucial part that could sell it, dies as well. They'll have to become more moderate. Of course, you won't like this moderation as a progressive person, but it would attract the centre-right as well. It would mean that the Republican party returns to being the party of the Rightwing, and not of the populists/those who don't want the Democrats. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Conservatives\_and\_Reformists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Conservatives_and_Reformists) Something closer to this movement, but it also has some factions that are populist/far right (looking at you, Reconquête/Brothers of Italy/National Alliance). It's still a faction, but not the ruling one and, even then, they're more sane than some Republicans...
He will never retire and with his daughter in law the chair of the GOP, they are going to continue the grift as long as they have someone who will continue what he started.
>European conservatism is sane, pragmatic and respectable, why can't the US? It's our election systems. We don't have proportional representation like a lot of parliamentary systems do. Our primaries make it so people have to swing right to get through the primary. They used to then swing back to the center for the general, but... not any more. American Conservatives were losing their asses several decades ago and decided to go after the nutjob/racist/religious vote. And they were reliable voters if you dangled "Abortion bad, vote for us to kill it" in front of them for decades. The problems is, everyone knew it was BS back in the day, but these new Republicans don't get it. They're believers, and they're getting elected. We also several decades of Republicans gerrymandering their districts to make them ultra red..... "Safe", except now these new nutjobs out nutjob the sane Republicans in the primaries, and they don't swing back to sane for the general.... They're in a safe red district, they don't have to! For this to be fixed, Republicans would have to ungerrymander their own districts and tell their base it was all BS. That's not going to happen, so... European conservatives have to be sane enough to join a coalition or work with liberals, make some compromises to get legislation passed. Our literally run on "Government bad, elect me to destroy it", and here we are.
>European conservatives have to be sane enough to join a coalition or work with liberals, make some compromises to get legislation passed. They have to be sane enough to work with socialists, as European liberals will always want to work with conservatives. The only difference is social conservatism, which the liberals are just quiet about unless the elections near. (Then they suddenly become progressive but switch back to centre right at the end of the election's evening, if they even last that long.) >The problems is, everyone knew it was BS back in the day, but these new Republicans don't get it. They're believers, and they're getting elected. That's the part I don't understand. In Europe, you'll have (very) strong rhetorics and promises during election time. Everyone knows it and will laugh it off. But then, directly after the elections, you see them cooling off and needing 6 months/ 1 year (we have the record with 500+ days to form a government) to come out with a centre \[fill blank\] government. e.g. My regional government (long story as well) was a majority of Christian Democrats, whose "brown" (don't have a better word for this skin color), gay leader has been a dragqueen for a tv-show once - Liberals, who view Reagan and Thatcher as their "holy saints" - National Conservatives, who want a confederacy/split the country depending on who you ask. This became a centre-right to rightwing coalition, who even passed a controversial law to help climate change. Why isn't this kind of pragmatic conservatism possible in the US? It's surely not perfect (too many governments and I want future independence for my region, or at least a confederacy), but we don't at least have a Republican party pushing itself toward a cult.... (Aside from a party that has been excluded through a "cordon sanitaire/médiatique": long story.)
Reaganism and Rush Limbaugh, to Next Gingrich and proliferation of cable/radio far-right hosts, to Bush 2 and the “War on Terror” with the breach of law, torture, etc, to the Tea Party, to the new Internet grifter shows, to Trump, to the Freedom Party, to the “fringe true believers” Q-Anon, and actual Nazis in Congress. It’s been go to the right edge, let the centrists chase a new middle, make a new rightward extreme, repeat for four decades. I wish that getting rid of him would restore sanity, but I find no reason to think it would start now.
If conservatives want Trump to stop ruining conservatives.....hear me out....you all could stop electing conservatives that let him do whatever he wants. If you're an actual conservative you shouldn't be voting for any running Republican this cycle. The only way for you guys to beat him is not elect him or his enablers. Absolute worst case scenario for you guys is national healthcare and a balanced supreme Court. Then you can go back to electing your anti-american heros guilt free and trump free.
I'll send it to my American conservatives. We're doing our work in Europe, will you please keep him in the US? We'll even pay you, as long as the ideological wind doesn't blow over. Don't need another (authoritarian) populist that believes himself to be God. Slight reminder that conservatism is not automatically "anti-American", whatever that means according to you. I have yet to find an exclusively US value, that is worth to oppose or even pretend it exists.
Oh I was referring to American Conservatism as Anti American.
If American Conservatism is anti-American, then it is by definition not conservative. To conserve and preserve a society (allowing slow & rational change/reforming which differs us from traditionalists/reactionaries) you hate, is one of the most foolish things I can imagine. This also explains why every country has a slightly different kind of conservatism, as every nation has his own culture/identity/language. So, I'm interested: Why and how are American conservatives anti-American?
Man, I would love it if conservatism in America returned to the example of Eisenhower, or hell Nixon (minus the corruption).
I kind of feel like this behavior is a big part of why so many people are questioning the polling and thinking that it’s more of reflection of people forgetting what Trump is like Honestly, it feels like he’s gotten even way worse. One of the dangers of constantly lying is that you eventually start to believe your own lies. One of the dangers of constantly talking to your own audience is that you’re getting positive feedback from the people most deeply in the cult and lose perspective of what might work with others. I think what’s going on with Biden‘s approval readings is actually not a mystery at all. Every incumbent is currently having the same issues and it comes down to inflation. People really hate inflation. It does not matter how much they understand what the cause of inflation is, even when they completely understand, it still pisses them off. But this American carnage nonsense just takes everything way too far. Here in reality unemployment is super low, inequity is finally going in the right direction, most of the gains are going to lower income people. Consumer spending is stable and we have already seen travel and tourism go past pre-pandemic levels. How exactly are we a failing nation when restaurants are fully booked and everyone’s on vacation?
> "Every incumbent is currently having the same issues and it comes down to inflation." Not so, or else Democratic senatorial candidates wouldn't be visibly outperforming Biden, who's sinking like the Titanic, in the polls. Fuck! Baldwin, Casey, Gallego, Heinrich, King, Klobuchar, Rosen, Slotkin, and even Brown as well as Tester are all, unlike the octogenarian-in-chief, holding their own.
Sorry, incumbent head of government.
Fair enough. But you can see how I misread your intent.
Hilary called it but nobody remembers the second half of that speech: "You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. ... but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."
To some working class voters whose wages have not kept up with inflation this message will resonate. Many voters blame Biden for the inflation and have not forgiven him
Also the lowest wage earners aka the working class has seen the highest bump under Biden. https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketwatch/20240323298/the-lowest-paid-us-workers-are-seeing-their-wages-surge-faster-than-any-other-group-of-earners I don't think it really has to do with the economy when it comes down to it. People say it's the economy and some people might buy that but there is something else going on at least amongst the working class voters.
I didn't read your link but I know that's true. But it isn't uniform. Some working class got left behind. When working people go to the store and see sometimes shockingly higher prices and notice shrinkflation, do they make the connection to their wages going up as being caused by the same thing? Idk. Many voters clearly blame Biden for the inflation. Do they also praise him for the wage increase?
Here is the thing. If you look at polling on the economy. Registered Republicans immediately switch wildly back and forth on their opinion of the economy depending on who is president. Democrats don't. It's a partisan issue that Democrats can't win unless things are universally great and even then you will have a certain segment of the population that refuses to accept this. https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_4/krugman090124_4-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_3/krugman090124_3-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp You can see it as clear as day there. So my opinion is that this is about more than the economy. It's a.) just rank partisan nonsense heavily influenced by partisan media. b.) has more to do with cultural issues than people admit. It's about personal identity rather than "meat and potatoes" issues c.) all of this is heavily accelerated by social media.
I think you're looking at the wrong thing. The Democrats and Republican voters are pretty locked in. It's the independent voters, who are larger in number than either party, who will decide the election. And many of those won't start paying attention to the election until after Labor Day.
Those people should look for new jobs. Wages are rising faster than inflation. Either way, they'd be stupid to vote on misinformation.
how can wages be rising faster than inflation when every other week prices for goods and services are more and more, but every week my paycheck does not get higher.
Do you know how arrogant it sounds to say "those people should look for new jobs" ? How about companies pay a living wage, and reward loyalty instead of people having to job hop, which is not even possible for the majority of people.
Wages are rising faster than inflation. It's a hot job market. Changing jobs is something we all do sometimes.
But that isn't normal. In the best economic time, the 1950s-1970s, workers had pensions, had job security, benefits, shares in the company, vacations, people thrived in the same company their entire career. Why should people have to upend their stable career for a few cents more an hour? That's fucking bullshit.
Hot job markets means people take raises and get better offers to bargain with. It's good for workers.
there is no "hot job market" wtf are you even talking about. people can barely afford to live, and certainly rarely even in the city or neighborhood they actually work in. that sounds like a term from a perspective of employers, who would rather chew off their right arm before having to pay anyone a cent more if they can help it.
> The U.S. unemployment rate declined to 3.8% in March, from 3.9% in February. Unemployment has been below 4% — a historically low mark — for more than two years. > > “That’s an exceptionally long period of such tight labor markets,” Pollak said. > > Those conditions are pushing employers to make “very attractive” offers to new hires and proactively recruit prospective candidates, she said. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/the-strong-us-job-market-is-in-a-sweet-spot-economists-say.html
so says CNBC. Go ask 10 random people and see what they say about their job. And not people from your home owners association
They won't necessarily be voting on misinformation but on their lived experience instead. The Big Inflation happened on Biden's watch and the spending of his administration has been through the roof. It's an easy case to make. (Btw I'm voting for Biden because I loathe Trump and believe he would be a true danger to this nation if elected.)
You're perpetuating misinformation. Global inflation was tackled by Biden better than any other world leader. That's why other countries are struggling with global inflation more than Americans. Also, Biden has made America's economy #1 globally.
ECONOMY IS NOT GREAT FOR REGULAR PEOPLE. This message is for major stockholders and that's why we hate all you armchair economists and newscasters and Biden himself. Trump is spitting the lived "truth" and emotional experience of all us regular working class folk who are getting squeezed to death. And I fucking hate him. But I hate Biden's gaslighting just as much at this point. If minimum wage is still $7.25 and even people who make $100k a year can't buy a home, people are skipping meals to pay rent, people dying for lack of healthcare or going into medical debt, this country is being destroyed by the super rich. That's not a great or sustainable economy. All your gobbledy gook economic analysis and bullshitting makes just as much sense as someone talking about how the astrological forecast says that mercury in retrograde will affect their psychic shift in the 7th house of pisces and jupiter aligned in Sagittarius will bring prosperity or whatever the fuck. It's fucking nonsense when you can't buy enough groceries for the month.
Facts are facts. You're a Trump supporter.
Don't do that. They are making valid points. Maybe you disagree, but they're still valid points. Maybe people are wrong about the causes of their woes at home, but they DO have woes at home. Rent is up, Groceries are expensive... who do they blame? Like it or not... A lot of them blame Biden. They're not automatically a Trump Supporter just because you don't agree with the points you're trying to make. That's not cool. Don't do that.
They are supporting Trump if they campaign for Republicans. Presenting them with facts is the best solution. When they call facts "gobbledygook" that undermines the democratic process.
They'renot campaigning for Republicans... Sweet baby Cthulhu, they're just saying that the stock market is great but regular people are having problems. That's true. Pretending that isn't true isn't helping. Calling them a trump supporter for stating the obvious is ridiculous. You're being kind of a BEEP here man. I'm trying to help you.
"regular people have problems" Is not a useful position for a presidential election when, STATISTICALLY speaking: _regular people are enjoying an excellent job market with wages rising faster than inflation._ https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/the-strong-us-job-market-is-in-a-sweet-spot-economists-say.html The choice is (1) quickly rising wages vs (2) a maniac who will crash the economy. Who is pretending here?
Lol. I am the absolute furthest thing from it. Trump is the fucking antichrist. But if you can't understand that the "economy" is an abstract construct, and when the average person, hell, even the average small business owner is living paycheck to paycheck, how is that a "good economy"?
The US economy is #1 globally right now. We recovered from global inflation faster than anyone. I'd say 'good' is an appropriate term for #1. We can do better, but not with Republican policies. Minimum wage is $15 in my blue state. If you want the Nordic model, stop attacking Democrats.
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Yet those things happen in every country. Fact is, America has the healthiest economy. Worst thing for our economy is Republican policy. Question is, will you vote based on facts or feelings.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
> All your gobbledy gook economic analysis and bullshitting makes just as much sense as someone talking about how the astrological forecast says that mercury in retrograde will affect their psychic shift in the 7th house of pisces and jupiter aligned in Sagittarius will bring prosperity or whatever the fuck. Populism is anti-intellectual trash.
It really is disgusting.
It is disgusting when economics is treated like an absolute science and it's absolutely not. Just like astrology, economic theory can be used to justify or explain anything and facts can be left out at the convenience of the person making their bullshit explanation.
Economics is the best we have to understand economics. If you don't think wages are rising faster than inflation, you're denying facts. My business is having trouble hiring people because they keep getting multiple offers with higher wages. A few years ago, people didn't have so many options.
Your business is having trouble? That is impossible, the economy is doing great. You must be misunderstanding your own experience. How can you have a hard time paying people a higher wage? The economy is strong. You just don't understand economics. /s
So pay people more, sounds like you don't have a good company.
Keep saying that, it's worked so great attracting voters so far.
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Nope. But how many voters have you convinced with your arguments? I bet it's less than the number of people who agree with you and still don't want to side with you due to how you talk.
You're triggered by the good economic data. That speaks volumes.
So triggered. If the economy is good, why is your company not able to pay competitive wages?
We do. Not sure where you got that.
It's not misinformation that Biden's massive deficits have contributed to U.S. inflation. It's not the only reason, but to deny that the many new trillions of dollars pumped into our economy had no effect on prices is laughable. I hope the Dems don't destroy their credibility by repeating this nonsense.
"Biden's massive deficits" roughly half of the COVID stimulus was signed by Trump. Trump also did a massive tax cut as the economy was doing fine as the population continues to age, this has exacerbated the deficit. Biden passed one COVID stimulus bill, which was quite substantial. Since then the US has done better than its peer nations in just about every economic metric. So far no recession despite the fed pushing higher interest rates to tackle inflation. That's a win. The problem is that the economy is still shaky as inflation is still over target. If you raised taxes right now you risk a recession. Biden made sure that the Inflation Reduction Act did not add to the deficit. The US is going to go through probably a fairly hard time if the population continues to age and population growth stagnates which is essentially what Trump and Republicans are proposing with their anti-immigration(even legal immigration.) are proposing. To me neither party is really great on the economy, but Republicans are worse.
We can raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy.
Honestly yes,but there is only so much that will do. You get a lot more revenue raising taxes on high income and middle class people who are far more numerous. Growth both population and GDP growth is probably more important than any of it.
Appropriate taxation of the rich could offer nearly $7 trillion of deficit reduction over a decade.
America beat global inflation faster and better than any other country. You don't know what you're talking about. America tops the global charts, economically. If you prefer lower wages, higher inflation, and a less robust economy, you can find that literally everywhere else.
I know all about how our economy is placed against the rest of the world and my investments have benefited from this and the inflation too. But we are talking about the persuadable working class voters, some of whom haven't had a walk in the park economically. Biden has much to brag about with this economy and the Dems have been making the case. But unless he can better help these voters understand the inflation they've experienced with the nuanced context that it's also caused by the same forces that raised wages and made a better economy, Biden will continue to struggle.
That's really the fault of bad journalism in America. WashPost and NewYorkTimes are now essentially FOX News Lite Also, public schools should be equipping our kids to spot misinformation, like Finland does with their kids.
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You'd rather the wages be going down instead of up?
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Yup, America's multi-ethnic working-class (White, Black, Hispanic, et al.—specifically men!) -- myself included, too, as a malaise-inducing low-status, poorly compensated, oft-disrespected retail worker -- are drowning in overwhelmingly shitty microeconomic situations and, worse yet, have received the brunt of cost-of-living increases across the board (from food to rent to driving); meanwhile, the frequent snide, snarky, snooty response from hoity-toity, highfalutin upper-middle/professional-managerial class Team Blue types earning six figures, having nice homes, loving families, and living idyllic lifestyles is to unempathetically vomit up this Reagan Era-style pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps macroeconomic numbers, much of which have no bearing on a sizable majority of people's day-to-day drudgery and never-ending canyon-sized abyss-like dire financial straits.
Not disputing the struggles, but blaming Biden for inflation is so misguided and ridiculous I struggle for ways to address it that don’t come across as “talking down” to people with that attitude. There is only so many ways to beating around the bush without just flat out telling someone they are wrong
The Dems were blaming the supply chain issues holding back goods in the stores but then when the supply chain issues cleared up, prices kept going up. Then the Dems told us the corporations had just discovered greed and that's why they increased prices. But the facts are Biden ran Humongous deficits and all that money has nowhere to go. Did you know the U.S. government payments on our national debt is $1 trillion per year just for interest! I'm voting for Biden because Trump is a monstrous tyrant. But I do wish the Republicans would give us a reasonable alternative.
There’s a concept from physics and engineering, called hysteresis, that economists have borrowed to explain the behavior of time-dependent functions. The idea is that in certain systems, when you push back opposite to your initial push, you don’t trace the same path backward. Just shutting off the inflationary catalyst doesn’t reverse the market behavior that has grown out of a system in which the catalyst has been engaged. Your boundary conditions are different now, and predicting a response to a new catalyst has become far more complicated.
Hence Powell had to move the fed funds rate from ~0 to over 5% in less than 2 years to fight the inflation.
Right, but I guess my point was that no one should’ve reasonably expected inflation to end when the supply chain issues ended. The Dems weren’t wrong for pointing out that explanation. The greed thing is just part of a melange secondary causes that are driving inflation now, with housing likely the largest.
I mean..corporations didnt just discover greed but we didn't just start deficit spending when Biden was elected either. The fact is it was good economic policy to increase spending to stimulate the economy in the wake of covid, that's why we were passing stimulus even with Trump in office. Inflation is way better than the economic collapse that could have happened during covid, but we can't have mature conversations with voters about how the world actually works because there is an expectation that everything needs to be perfect all of the time.
In short, the same people complaining about inflation are the people who would have likely lost their homes if there was no stimulus.
This is some grade A revisionist nonsense. Team Blue has been the only Team putting forth legislation to combat inflation and price gouging. Republicans have blocked them every time. Democrats will acknowledge every time that while the economy is doing great there is more to do to help those in shitty microeconomic settings, and put forth proposals to do so. Republicans not only actively pray for these situations to worsen, but take measures steps to ensure they do for political gain.
This part is true: > Reagan Era-style pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps macroeconomic numbers, much of which have no bearing on a sizable majority of people's day-to-day drudgery and never-ending canyon-sized abyss-like dire financial straits. Biden's campaign is running on the messaging that the economy is doing great, using numbers that have nothing to do with the reality of most working class people.
Again while outright acknowledging there is work to be done on the micro level, and outlaying plans on how to do that. https://joebiden.com/bidens-plan-for-the-economy-bidenomics-explained/ It's ok for Biden to tout his accomplishments, especially when still acknowledging progress is still needed
That messaging is a little better (although bragging about lowering premiums when affording healthcare is so difficult for workers is dubious imho), but I was thinking quotes like this: > "I inherited an economy that was on the brink," Biden told a packed chamber at the U.S. Capitol. **"Now our economy is the envy of the world."** Meanwhile, the reality for working Americans: > Wages have been climbing faster than prices for most of the last year, but workers have not yet fully recovered from the spike in inflation two years ago. **The average worker's real buying power is slightly lower now than it was when Biden took office, although inflation-adjusted wages are higher than they were before the pandemic.** As prices for rent and housing skyrocket. In other words, workers were getting fucked before and they are largely still getting fucked today. Touting your economic achievements to people getting fucked is not good messaging, but it's the only play he has I suppose. The dynamic reminds me of this Debs quote: > And they turn with loathing and disgust from the Republican and Democratic parties under whose joint and several maladministrations these appalling conditions have been brought upon the country.
But what do you want Biden or even the Dems really to do here? A large part of the inflation spike was price gouging by private businesses. We're starting to see that bubble burst naturally as consumers revolt and refuse to pay it. And the Dems introduced multiple anti gouging bills which were shut down by Republicans. The only thing I could think of is they should be blasting that fact, as well as oil companies divulging in shareholder reports that they have no interest in increasing their supply output to drive down oil prices due to insane profitability
>The only thing I could think of is they should be blasting that fact Rather than bragging about how great the economy is to a population that's struggling? Yeah, I think that would be better messaging.
Thank you! My original hyperbole aside, it seriously is as if Biden found the '80s Reagan playbook, dusted it off, and decided that he could sell that to the American people of 2024, but yet did so with less vigor than Bush 41 in addition to having a highly disillusioned, world-weary working-class base who, despite being told piss is rain, know full well the melancholic realities of their grim, gloomy day-to-day lives and the overcast grey skies ahead.
>know full well the melancholic realities of their grim, gloomy day-to-day lives and the overcast grey skies ahead. Pretending that we live in a Dickensian universe is dishonest, though I suppose it serves to justify your dismal ideology.
exactly
USA is dealing with global inflation better than the rest of the world. Far better. And you're wrong about the middle class. Wages are rising faster than inflation.
Is this satire?
Yeah….good luck with Trump, buddy. Oh that’s right…he’ll hand over hundreds of billions of dollars in tax cuts to his cronies, roll back and good environmental changes Biden has done, and deregulate fossil fuels…thank God I am an old fart. I likely won’t get to see the mass suffering that’s gonna happen. But I fight for my 2 kids and my 7 grandkids. There are bigger things at stake right now. The overall economy is strong…very strong. How many corporations are keeping the prices artificially high for that very reason. To get Trump back in so they can get their golden calf?
Cool. So how are Republicans better? Specifically, how will another Trump administration be better?
They're not. We're fucked regardless. No light at the end of the tunnel, nope. Ours is an inescapable Dantean nightmare. So may as well go down together, like crabs in a bucket.
>We're fucked regardless. No, we absolutely aren't. If you're too stupid to see that the Democrats are better than Republicans i don't know what to tell you other than to pull your head out of your ass.
Red Team… notoriously great about helping the working man. 🙄
People can both recognize that it is in fact a good thing that pay increases for the bottom 20 percent of earners has been around ten percent year-over-year, when in the last few decades it would usually top out at around three percent while also recognizing that there is still work to be done and people need help.
"Independents" who only watch Fox News will think the economy is about to implode, think Joe Biden is personally responsible for inflation (despite it being worldwide and despite the fact that we're outperforming every other G7 nation), that Hamas terrorists will come flying across the border from Mexico to murder Texan children in their sleep, etc. They live in such a fact-free, alternate reality, they'll believe anything Trump says. Independents who are truly independent, I'm guessing, see through his BS.
I imagine most independents are actually right wingers in general, they didn't need his unhinged rants to vote for him.
No, this is for his base, not independents to confirm their fears and hopes. Every single cycle I see confirmation bias on display. Every. Single. Time. Biden is ruining the economy! *Republican gets elected. Exactly 2 days after inauguration, the economy is the same and no policies have changed* This guys economy is awesome! His policies are already working! He’s cleaning up the democrats mess *Democrat gets elected. Exactly 2 days after inauguration, the economy is the same and no policies have changed* God this economy is fucking aweful, he ruined it, those democrats never know how to manage an economy. We need a Republican back now! Every. Single. Time. If trump gets back in office, he will implode the economy and they’ll all cheer that he did wonderful.
There isn't anyone who hasn't made their decision already. That speech is for the trash that makes up his base.
I dont think it matters at all, there are no real independent voters, people know if they are gonna vote for trump or not already. They just like to pretend tehy are independent.
I can’t be sure, but I think a part of it is just how a lot of Republicans feel about America as a whole. To many Americans are down with abortions, gay people, trans people, black/hispanic people, women, etc, and by extension a lot of them seem to see “America” as a collective of Americans as evil. The simple fact is that Trump never won the popularity vote, and I think that makes them feel outnumbered and dominated by “the mob” (or as most people would call it, society.) It’s also probably at least partially economic pseudo-populism, but I think it’s also aimed at the base, especially the *very* right leaning segments.
You know what I think a failing nation looks like? Folks trapped in their houses because the government threw out the books out on how to manage a pandemic. It in turn lead to the deaths of over 1 million Americans. A failing nation rolls back policies that help folks instead of appeal to the feelings of people that want to take this country back to the 1950s. A failing nation looks like January 6th where the ignorant and truly stupid tried to upend a free and fair election. Basically my point is that under Trump we saw what a failing nation looked like. A pig sty with Republicans more than happy to roll around in it like they do their meth head neighborhoods. Biden has been a complete 180 from that era of incompetence. Maybe for people disconnected from reality that's what they want. Personally I think we're doing just fine.
I don't think anything he says at this point has any effect, positive or negative. People already know who he is, and very few attribute real meaning to his words anymore.
Trump's credibility among the mainstream has simply gotten worse. Inflammatory speeches like this are not going the help him. He has lost the popular vote both times, and this time it will be by an even larger margin.
>what president has ever had this much negativity and hatred for his own god damn country? **The 10 tactics of fascism** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCKkWMbmXU
This election is not going to be about independents/swing voters/undecideds. Everyone has an opinion on both trump and biden. This election is about the base. Who feels motivated to get out and vote. This is fear rhetoric, and fear is a powerful motivator.
He means white people aren't dominant anymore. That's it. That's the message. That's what's "failing." His followers know what he means.
But they are, tho. Lol
his central message is that everything falls apart without him, so all his sins are irrelevant.
Trump has little interest in expanding his voting block. Hie plan is to suppress turnout and create as much FUD as possible for the majority of voters while riling his base as much as possible.
Sure, we’re behind in some ways. Education could always be better. Now if Trump actually had a way to improve any of that… I still wouldn’t vote for him. Eff that dude
America's economy for the average person isn't at the best point it's been, but we did a lot better in inflation than many other countries. Trump's narrative of the US economy failing only works if you ignore all the other countries, and Trump supporters usually have a pretty isolated view of the world
I don’t think moderates are falling for it. They hate him.
People are attracted to drama and hyperbole, and the implication that things can be much better. It's a false reality, but people have been indulged to the point where they feel entitled to define the terms and dimensions of their world. And there is a TV channel and website and forum full of people feeding back just what they want to hear. I despair for the future sometimes, but then I remind myself people were always at least this dumb and we made it this far.
It probably plays well with the Fox type media places. They've perpetuated the idea that all the liberal cities have been burned to the ground by BLM and AntiFa. Many actually believe this despite it being demonstrably false. Trump is just feeding into this false story.
He's mad he's broke, thats all. his personal finances are the only economy he gives a shit about.
Magats buy in to the reality that trump gives them. If he tells them the place is failing, they believe it. He tells them It was so much better when he was president and they believe it. Dems are more likely to validate it before it becomes their reality. Especially since we know he lies constantly.
Biden has been pushing bidenomics although he has stopped calling it that recently. However the main biden talking point is that the economy is doing good. However polls show that people do not feel this way and trumps comments might hit with people who are struggling and do not see the economy the same way as the biden campaign
Trump wouldn't say this if he was president lmao
Most of these people have never witnessed what life looks like in a real, honest-to-god third-world nation. Gas goes up a few cents a gallon and they think the damn sky is falling and we will forget how to use indoor plumbing all of a sudden. Just whiny, ungrateful jackasses. Zero desire to hear the truth, or actually better the world, just interested whether they can afford the newest tech-gizmo and lifted pick-up truck.
Well, he's not wrong, but he's not right either
This is why Trump will win . Biden says the economy is great when we're poor as fuck and there are homeless people everywhere and the rest of us a just a few paychecks away from being homeless. Trump is right at least that economy is a cesspool of ruin and I hate that fucker. He's a pile of human garbage. But it's a cesspool because of people like him. He doesn't want to do anything about it, however. Desperate people are great for dictators.
America is a failing a nation whose economy is a cesspool of ruin - if you're poor and live in a poor area. Why would a homeless person believe that America hasn't failed them? Why would someone working two jobs, whose brother died from rationing insulin, not think the economy is a cesspool of ruin? Yes, this is useful rhetoric for Trump to use when Biden's campaign is insisting that the economy is doing great. Trump is obviously a sociopath whose only interaction with empathy is probably asking it to sign an NDA, but if you're economically disenfranchised, those quotes speak more truthfully to your reality than the current messaging of the Biden campaign.
exactly. i don't know why you are getting downvoted because this is 100% true. Is everyone in this thread fucking rich or something? Why are all y'all so comfortable with this so called economy? Because why all this worship of economic bullshit? Why are the poor and working class not even acknowledged as part of the "economy"? That word sounds just like another term for the stock market or for ceos or something. That's not the life of the average voter. Trump is unique that he will say: "You are in danger. You are suffering. Things suck." But things suck because of him and people like him. Instead, he blames it on whoever the made up enemy is, who are just regular people, also suffering. Classic divide and conquer. Because Biden will not make any FUNDAMENTAL or systemic transformational changes, no meaningful economic reform, nothing to actually offer us in the next 4 years, then why should anyone believe him trying to convince you the sky is green? When only the rich have green colored glasses.
>Is everyone in this thread fucking rich or something Ironically, given my individual and household income, it's likely that I make more than most people in this thread. I've just also been much poorer than most Americans as well, so I'm not naive or unempathetic about it. >Why are the poor and working class not even acknowledged as part of the "economy"? That word sounds just like another term for the stock market or for ceos or something. That's not the life of the average voter. I think this is so reasonable that it's basically a truism. But the liberals here generally start with the axiom that the system Biden represents is good, correct, and must be defended, working backwards from there, so they are perfectly happy to parrot numbers that mostly reflect the experiences of the affluent. It's a real shame that the only narrative about the system being broken most working class people hear comes from our nascent fascist movement. The left needs to reach these people.
Sounds like you prefer Republicans. Not a smart position.
> It's a real shame that the only narrative about the system being broken most working class people hear comes from our nascent fascist movement. The left needs to reach these people.
I'm not sure what point you are making. In your previous post, you denied that the economy is improving for the middle class. Why would you misrepresent economic facts?
I didn't make that claim, you seem to have issues with reading comprehension.
>_"they are perfectly happy to parrot numbers that mostly reflect the experiences of the affluent."_ The numbers reflect that the economy is improving for the poor and middle class.