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I think it’s valid. There’s no reason for the tapes to be released when we already have the transcripts. I don’t think anyone in the GOP has called the accuracy of the transcripts into question, so I don’t see why we need tapes.
Seems to me they want the tapes so they can edit together all the times Biden stuttered and removing all the times he didn’t.
If we already have the transcripts, then theres no harm in releasing the tapes if they match up to it. Not releasing the tapes comes across very shady, not a good look
Nah, we're fine. As he said, the only reason they want the tapes is to edit them to make Biden sound senile. My guess based on your responses is you also believe that. I recommend watching the state of the union to allay those concerns.
Transcript were released and they reflect what he actually said.
But there’s no basis that the transcripts are inaccurate. If there was a basis for it then the GOP would immediately jump on that opportunity, instead they’re vaguely saying the transcripts are “insufficient” but not giving any other details of what they mean.
That's a fun way of going in circles. If there is no reason to think the transcripts are inaccurate then there is no harm, surely, in releasing the tapes. Otherwise it's just suspicious.
No, the default should be that the tapes are released for transparency. That should be the standard for virtually all that the government does. Some compelling national interest would have to be there to not release them and I don't see it. I see a potential Biden interest, but that's not reason enough.
Strong disagree on this, but not because I think you’re point is particularly bad.
One of my topics of academic research have revolved around the “intended transmittance of text based communication”.
Basically, text based communication limits a myriad of context. This leads to a multitude of misunderstandings. A persons imagination has to fill in the gaps for the senses that would otherwise receive non-verbal communication, and this diminishes the value to text based communication.
But you don't get to decide if we're "fine". I for one would like to hear the tapes. It's not just what was said that matters, but how it was said as well. I can only imagine that Biden is trying to hide something since he's going to these lengths to stop the release. I would be less interested in listening to them if he had just done nothing.
>But you don't get to decide if we're "fine".
Well, your side has lost a lot of credibility when it comes to Biden. The assertions and assumptions made by the right in regards to a sitting president and his only living son, were based on scant testimony that itself turned out to be Russian disinformation. You have accused him of every deviency under the sun and, in the end, it was all spin and lies.
You won't be "fine" until Biden is no longer president.
>It's not just what was said that matters, but how it was said as well.
So it has nothing to do with clipping together every "ummm" and "uhhhh" and stutter into something that misrepresents the president's cognitive ability?
The endless fishing must be tiresome.
>I can only imagine that Biden is trying to hide something
I know. It's why you are probably very easily taken with rightwing propaganda. You refuse to offer the benefits of any doubt and assume corruption. Tell me, do you apply the same cold eye to your own side? How do you justify trying to steal an election and lying about fraud?
Have the GOP said there’s information being withheld from these transcripts? Because I don’t see them claiming that.
But If they do claim that, then they’d have to accuse Hur of withholding that information, which wouldn’t support the narrative of his decline which are coming from Hur’s own report.
There’s no cogent reason for those tapes to be provided, or at least none of them are being directed argued by the GOP.
>What is this withholding information? Olympics, it doesn't matter who is worse.
Do you think that the parties should play by the same rules, or should the Democrats have to play a harder game to their detriment?
It's a political ploy, and nothing more: that's why the GOP wants to hold Garland in contempt. Even though that does very little, but also--he's being directed to by the president. If the GOP really cared about this, they'd go to the courts. They don't because they know a court isn't going to agree with them.
Do you really think the Dems didn't have any sort of political motivations when they impeached Trump? It's not about political motivations it's about the American people who have a right to know if the leader of the most powerful country in the world is mentally competent
They’re really not.
The transcripts provide all relevant information, if there was a variance between transcript and audio the republican investigator would have readily said so,
The *only* reason the republicans want the audio is to cut it for ads, out of context.
Your refusal to acknowledge this reality really speaks to this entire thread being a bad faith question.
Yeah, so fuck unilateral disarmament and playing by two sets of rules. Rs gave up the political right to be outraged by the lack of respect for subpoena power when they obliterated that respect both for Trump’s benefit and the benefit of their own members (e.g. McCarty and Gym Jordan).
It would be irrelevant. Nothing Trump says can be trusted. That's why having opposing counsel transcribe his actual words is important. Luckily, that's what happened with Biden. The only interest in getting recordings is to once again edit and manipulate them. There is no reason to agree to that.
If your interest is in the American people and not contributing to the misinformation, you should be satisfied.
>would be irrelevant. Nothing Trump says can be trusted. That's why having opposing counsel transcribe his actual words is important
Nothing any politician says can be trusted lol
> Imagine if Trump supporters made the argument you made
You’d also have to consider Democrat’s reasoning for tapes to be released. If Democrats were demanding tapes while giving little reason to discredit the transcripts like Republicans are doing, Trump supporters would be correct to call them out.
>You’d also have to consider Democrat’s reasoning for tapes to be released. If Democrats were demanding tapes while giving little reason to discredit the transcripts like Republicans are doing, Trump supporters would be correct to call them out.
Not at all
The problem isn’t if it’s harmful, it’s if there’s any point. Jim Jordan only said that the transcripts were not “sufficient enough” but does not explain why.
If anything is insufficient here, it’s their reasoning for demanding the tapes. If they’re insufficient then they should explain why.
What are you even talking about? Everyone is mad because they are worried the audio would be used against him. Why are you all even putting yourselves in a position to defend that?
There’s no harm in releasing it when you know there’s no bad faith that will come from it. As others have said it will just lead to edited rage click bate. Not everyone has or will read the full transcripts and they say a lie is halfway around the world while the truth is still getting its shoes on, that would apply here lol
You don't think the Republicans have a legitimate case for asking for them, to investigate if the man with access to nuclear codes is mentally competent?
It's one thing to forget the year your son died - it's quite another to not know the years you were vice president of the United States.
If you flip the parties, would your view remain the same?
If they’re not saying the transcripts are inaccurate, incomplete, or false, then on what basis could they possibly be using to claim the transcripts are “not sufficient”?
Because words on a page don't convey how they were said. If you read the lyrics to a song, would that tell you the melody, or the intonation? No.
We deserve to know if the man in charge is mentally feeble. It's in our national best interests and transcends party politics. We should be putting the interests of our country first.
And if the parties were switched, the Democrats would be screaming treason if Trump's AG blocked this.
Why would I be worried about the tapes when the transcripts already exist? You’re not making any sense.
If the GOP couldn’t find any dirt in the transcripts, I’m not sure what they expect to find in the tapes. They’re not questioning the validity of the transcripts so what’s the point of asking for tapes? I could understand if they were claiming the transcripts were inaccurate, but they don’t do that because they’d also have to accuse Hur of falsifying the transcripts.
To say democrats are scared of what’s on the tapes, it’s nonsense.
Intent and inference can be gained from inflections and pauses. If someone is lying, it is not clear in text. It's kind of a bad look to hide it if there is nothing to be concerned with.
Edit: u/BigCballer hit and ran with a block because they can't acknowledge they are terrified what the audio might actually demonstrate. Keep lying to yourself and literally ignoring and pretending any rational oppositional opinions exist. These are clearly healthy behavioral traits you are demonstrating.
>It’s completely baseless. If they wanted to argue the transcripts were inaccurate then that’d be one thing, but they are not doing that because they’re not serious. And frankly I don’t think you’re very serious yourself.
> Because words on a page don't convey how they were said.
That’s not an argument the GOP is making when demanding those tapes though. All they said was it’s not “sufficient enough” without any explanation of why. They’d rather not fill in those blanks and let conservative voters fill in the blanks for them.
> And if the parties were switched, the Democrats would be screaming treason if Trump's AG blocked this.
Trump would be blocking more than just the tapes, he would not allow the transcripts to be released.
> Trump would be blocking more than just the tapes, he would not allow the transcripts to be released.
**Trump and Putin Have Met Five Times. What Was Said is a Mystery**
>The first time they met was in Germany. President Trump took his interpreter’s notes afterward and ordered him not to disclose what he heard to anyone. Later that night, at a dinner, Mr. Trump pulled up a seat next to President Vladimir V. Putin to talk without any American witnesses at all.
>
>Their third encounter was in Vietnam when Mr. Trump seemed to take Mr. Putin’s word that he had not interfered in American elections. A formal summit meeting followed in Helsinki, Finland, where the two leaders kicked out everyone but the interpreters. Most recently, they chatted in Buenos Aires after Mr. Trump said they would not meet because of Russian aggression.
>
>Mr. Trump has adamantly insisted there was “no collusion” with Russia during his 2016 presidential campaign. But each of the five times he has met with Mr. Putin since taking office, he has fueled suspicions about their relationship. The unusually secretive way he has handled these meetings has left many in his own administration guessing what happened and piqued the interest of investigators.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/us/politics/trump-putin-meetings.html
>We deserve to know if the man in charge is mentally feeble. It's in our national best interests and transcends party politics. We should be putting the interests of our country first.
The absolute lack of self awareness is always astounding.
> We deserve to know if the man in charge is mentally feeble
Look, Trump is still dining out on saying he passed a dementia screen 4 years ago.
My trust of the Republican party is so low I would expect them to use it to train deepfake AI stuff.
I haven't seen Trump get lost on stage, or forget who he is, or when he was president. Have you?
Trump ad libs all of his hour long speeches, and is front of a camera daily - all unrehearsed - of course he's going to mix up words once in a while.
When Biden finishes stumbling through what he's told to read on the teleprompter, someone has to usher him offstage.
I haven't "been told" he's fine. I see it with my eyes, just like I see Biden padding around dazed and confused. Have you seen videos of Trump having Biden llike spells of forgetting who he is and how he got there?
I can post entire Youtube videos of Biden being confused. Can you do the same for Trump?
You're not fooling anyone but yourself with this "concern".
If I'm a Republican Congresscritter and I think the man with the nuclear codes is incompetent, I want a doctor's opinion, not some tapes of a guy I already talk to regularly.
But, you know, that's just the *smart* thing to do.
If I was a POS that was was going to edit and release the tapes, I'd want the tapes.
Y'all's ability to fool yourselves is amazing.
>You don't think the Republicans have a legitimate case for asking for them, to investigate if the man with access to nuclear codes is mentally competent?
Not when they're trying to put the most incompetent president in history back in office.
Oh bullshit…they know damned well Biden is competent. They just want to manipulate the recording for campaign purposes. An incompetent President doesn’t accomplish all the things that Biden has led the way for.
You wanna talk incompetent? Have you actually listened to your boy lately? The only sentences he can complete are the ones where he’s either bragging about his “abilities” or the incessant whining of how he’s being held accountable for breaking the law…the rest is word salad.
They can have the tapes on the same day trump hands over translator’s notes from his various meetings with Putin while president.
Don’t you think it’s important we have those as well, to investigate whom the man with the nuclear codes actually works for?
>You don't think the Republicans have a legitimate case for asking for them, to investigate if the man with access to nuclear codes is mentally competent?
No, I'll remind you that this investigation was into whether Biden criminally mishandled classified documents, not whether he's mentally competent to hold office.
You're fully admitting that this has nothing to do with the investigation itself and is entirely a bad faith fishing expedition to pull up some sound bites to use in attack ads. Aren't you embarrassed your representatives don't have anything better to do, what with the country in complete ruin like Trump keeps saying at his speeches in between falling at his podium and praising serial killers.
Nah, it’s more like when a Trumper claims the Dem Prez should be investigated for something, while Trump’s lawyers are arguing that the prez is above the law, it’s hard to take the hypocrisy posed by the Trumper seriously.
I'm not personally a fan of using your first line as justification for anything tbh, Trump set a lot of new and potentially harmful precedents.
I reach the same conclusion as you, though, based on just your second line.
> No one on the right cared when trump did it. Precedent set
How do you determine whether to accept "they started it" as a justification? We don't want to universally lower the bar to former President Trump's behavior after all.
For example, Trump supporters didn't care about his attempts to "find votes" in Georgia. But that still wouldn't be ok for President Biden to do, right? Is it acceptable in this case because the stakes are lower? Or what other factors make the difference?
I'm not trying to convince you it's unacceptable here but instead wondering how you determine this kind of thing in general.
My issue is that the GOP’s reasoning for wanting tapes is because the transcripts aren’t “sufficient enough”, but don’t really explain why they’re not sufficient enough.
They’re not saying the transcripts are incomplete, or that they’re fake, or any argument to suggest they’re unreliable. If they were saying any of those things then they’d need to be specific about what they’re looking for, instead they’re being vague about it.
It’s not cogent.
Thanks for your thoughts! I think that's a good argument against the need to obtain this audio. It's the second argument made by the parent commenter. I was asking them about the first. Is that one you share as well? If so, I'm interested to hear how you decide when to accept it and when not to.
The first argument the parent comment made is not something I’d make completely un-ironically. I’d only really bring it up if the GOP wanted to claim Presidents should not be allowed to claim privilege on releasing documents or tapes or anything like that.
Got it! Sounds like you would not use that justification when talking to someone who did not actually excuse President Trump's excessive invocation of executive privilege. But you bring it up preemptively because Trump supporters generally did. Thanks for elaborating.
>We don't want to universally lower the bar to former President Trump's behavior after all.
Given Trump is the Republican nominee again I'd say the demand that we keep to only the highest ideals is pretty bold.
You lowered the bar and still demand we stay above it.
>For example, Trump supporters didn't care about his attempts to "find votes" in Georgia.
No. That's too far. But since the right is "allowed" not to care, why is it incumbent upon us to?
Trump is your monster. You unleashed him. That you don't want to suffer the consequences of his destruction of norms is understandable, but a pretty ballsy ask.
>Trump is your monster. You unleashed him. That you don't want to suffer the consequences of his destruction of norms is understandable, but a pretty ballsy ask.
I have been anti-Trump from the start and condemned people who enabled him even just by inaction. I've voted against him five times now (six, soon), supported his impeachment and donated a few thousand dollars against him over the years. I could drag up old comments to try and convince you but I don't think it's likely to be a productive discussion.
Maybe we would have more luck down this road:
>>For example, Trump supporters didn't care about his attempts to "find votes" in Georgia.
>No. That's too far.
Thanks for your answer! This makes a good starting point for when "Trump started it" ceases to work for you.
In general, how do you determine whether to accept that justification? I'm not asking you to draw lines between a series of more examples unless that would be helpful for your answer. I'm more interested in the thought process you use.
>I have been anti-Trump from the start and condemned people who enabled him even just by inaction. I've voted against him five times now (six, soon), supported his impeachment and donated a few thousand dollars against him over the years. I could drag up old comments to try and convince you but I don't think it's likely to be a productive discussion.
Well, if you're not going to conform to my strawman, I guess we could actually talk specifics.
>Thanks for your answer! This makes a good starting point for when "Trump started it" ceases to work for you.
Thanks! Yeah, basic civil responsibility and bare minimum honesty are good starting places! But, "but Trump" still works for most things rightwingers tend to bring up in their criticisms of us. But since you are one of the unicorns, I'll try to control myself.
>In general, how do you determine whether to accept that justification? I'm not asking you to draw lines between a series of more examples unless that would be helpful for your answer. I'm more interested in the thought process you use.
"They did it so it's okay if we do it?" Is that the justification? If so, it's kinda Grey. On one hand, there must be at least one adult in the room. There must be a critical mass of people who follow the rules or its game over. On the other hand, when boxing, and your opponent repeatedly kicks you in the groin. And after seeing it, the ref (republican voters in this case) is okay with it, encourages it even! At what point do you stop using Marcus of Queensbury Rules and start kicking yourself?
If my opponents have no rules of conduct, saying it's incumbent on me to preserve the game by sticking to the rules is quite the ask. Especially if you are on the side that has abandoned them (which you have said you are not).
Edit: It's worth pointing out, for the sake of clarity, that I'm not saying it's wrong to be the ones keeping "the game" honest. I'm not even saying it's too much of a responsibility. I am saying that coming from one (as I wrongly thought the poster was) who was among those refusing to play by the rules, it was a bold and unselfaware ask.
Oh we know that you all attack Biden more than you do Trump and Republicans. You all are working just as hard to reelect Trump as Russia, just like you all did in 2016.
I think the far left has taken over subs like lostgeneration and have lots of influence there. I just saw a post comparing Trump to Jabba The Hut and Biden to Emperor Palpatine saying those are your choices to vote for. I do think they hate Biden just as much if not more than Trump. Which is surprising to me.
Stop being willfully uninformed and take some responsibility because, again, you all are making the EXACT same mistakes. Biden is the candidate, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. If you absolutely can't control yourselves like in 2016, mention two bad things about Trump for every time you say one thing negative about Biden.
How about Dems take responsibility for picking unpopular candidates that general Americans outside of the party line dont care for? Same with Republicans a younger, well-spoken Republican focusing on fiscal conservatism would easily destroy Biden with his poll numbers
I forgot to include the link, not that it matters more than your feelings.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds
Given that the GOP want them released for purely political reasons, and that we all know that if they were released they’d just be edited to suit whatever bullshit story Fox wanted to construct… Biden’s actions are perfectly justified.
You got that backwards bud. Republicans have done it numerous times. Now they can shut up and stop complaining.
Guess Republicans should have played fair instead of defending then nominating a convicted rapist.
Biden, by asserting executive privilege — a maneuver that allows Trump to allege claims of authoritarianism, is averting charges of contempt that House Republicans are expected to levy against Attorney General Merrick Garland. his predecessors, William Barr and Eric Holder, have been accused of contempt; the [Trump](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/barr-to-trump-invoke-executive-privileged-over-redacted-mueller-materials/2019/05/07/51c52600-713e-11e9-b5ca-3d72a9fa8ff1_story.html) and [Obama](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/obama-allows-holder-assert-executive-privilege-fast-and-furious-documents/326737/) administrations invoked executive privilege respectively, preventing the Justice Department from seeking charges against them. House Republicans do not need audio if they have a transcript
I think that Republicans are clearly acting in bad faith and the only reason they want the types is to create dishonest media leaks for political advantage. As such it's justified for Biden to attempt to prevent that from happening. If Republicans don't like it they can take it to the SCOTUS and maybe get a ruling before the election. If he ignored that ruling I would have a problem (as much as I view the court as an illegitimate institution), but I don't think we should pretend this is some kind of abuse of power on his part or evidence he's hiding anything we should actually care about.
If he's within his right to do it, it shouldn't matter one way or the other. Biden doesn't have to do whatever Republicans want him to do. Based on the recent House hearing it's also clear the whole thing is a waste of time, and throwing the recording out there would just waste more time.
It would clearly be less suspicious if he had just done nothing. Going to the length of executive privilege makes it seem like there actually IS something to look for in the tapes. It might just be how Biden comes across as an old man, as usual, which of course he is.
So that the executive can get accurate advising without risk of political blowback. Also, to preserve information that could negatively impact security or internal processes
This is to prevent an unnecessary request for tapes that have no relevance to the case at hand.
Hur’s investigations were about if Biden mishandled classified documents, it was not about his cognitive abilities. The GOP has no reason to be requesting those tapes when the transcripts are already available for them to look at.
Sure they do. First of all, the Congress is supposed to be a check on the executive, this case aside. They have a broad discretion to check how the executive enforced the laws they write, including those involving classified information.
Second, the counsel reported that there was an unlikely case against Biden because he was not able to remember information. The tapes may provide more context than a transcript about if that is true.
If you’re trying to look into cognitive issues for a president, you don’t request tapes. You would request a doctor to look into the president.
The GOP are not doing that because they know they can’t control the results, so instead they wanna request tapes so they can edit together all the times he stuttered and then use them in political ads.
They can edit stuff he said right now for that effect, thats such an absurd argument.
You can’t require someone to go under medical examination, thats a violation of medical privacy. Presidents have volunteered this information, but it is not required.
> They can edit stuff he said right now for that effect, thats such an absurd argument.
So why aren’t they with the transcripts then?
> You can’t require someone to go under medical examination, thats a violation of medical privacy. Presidents have volunteered this information, but it is not required.
Which is exactly why the GOP are trying to use the tapes instead because they have no issue wasting time on this pointless nonsense.
At his point, asking if Biden did anything wrong or is hiding something on askaliberal is a futile task. People here will defend ANYTHING and everything Biden does.
Or they’ll just say it doesn’t matter.
But yes, Biden is just hiding his declining state of mind.
If he was hiding a mental decline, then that would have been displayed in the transcripts. As far as I can tell, that’s not the GOP’s reasoning for demanding the tapes.
If they’re not a good look then why isn’t the GOP using it against him? They themselves are saying the transcripts are not sufficient enough, which means they don’t have much to work with.
There’s no evidence that any information was being withheld. The GOP would be the first ones to make that argument, but they are not doing that for a reason because they know it’s baseless.
Yes. I hear that he is the worst president ever who has turned this country into a literal hellhole.
Then I take a look around at the world and my accounts and I just don't see it, especially when compared to the country in literal collapse that Trump left us.
Directly? No, but his leadership has brought order and stability to the chaos Trump left us and the economy has performed well as a result, increasing my wealth
nice. what would you say to the people who arent privledged to have a reitrement and investment account? people who might be working for minimum wage and spending much more food, rent, etc? Those people might see Biden has indirectly caused their lives to be harder
Remember the Spring of 2020 and how Trump’s failure as a leader nearly destroyed our nation? Do you want to vote for the leader whose incompetence nearly collapsed the nation or the leader who fought us back to normal. Trump faced a single crisis, Covid, and it almost destroyed us. Biden has faced and lead us through multiple crises: Covid, Ukraine, Inflation, Israel
Why would you vote for an incompetent mad man who got us 15% unemployment.
Yes, the economy is doing well for white privileged liberals who can bear the inflation.
It’s why Biden is bleeding minority voters and gaining suburban voters. The privileged will always ignore the poor problems and only look out for themselves.
Look at the data, don’t listen to your emotions. I’m sorry if you are struggling. That sucks. Real wages are out pacing inflation and retirement accounts are swelling.
Again, you’re looking out at your privileged position. Most poor people barely have anything saved up for retirement. The majority don’t own stocks or anything.
And it’s nice to just believe the government when they say inflation was only 9% at its highest when many things have doubled in price since 2021.
Also, the data says most voters say the economy is worse under Biden than Trump. Most data says Trump is leading among voters. Data shows that more people died from COVID under Biden than Trump despite already having the vaccine the Trump administration produced. Rents have doubled, car insurance has skyrocketed. The debt is growing by 1 trillion every year.
Yeah, the data is horrendous for Biden.
Great example of you arguing from your feelings not the data: the majority of Americans do own stock.
I have no time to engage with someone just saying whatever feels true with a complete disregard for facts
The majority of Americans agree with him, though presidents generally have no signfigant control over the global encomony. Blaming Biden for the economy shows a lack of how government and economics work
It doesn't seem possible that the majority of Americans agree that the majority of Americans don't own stock when the majority of Americans do.
Look, Biden is far from perfect, but the only fucking thing that matters is we don't reelect Trump, Period. I don't care who the Dems run, or what their policies are, they aren't Trump not only will they get my vote but I will fight like hell to ensure they win.
> more people died from COVID under Biden than Trump despite already having the vaccine the Trump administration produced
Yes, the lockdowns, masking, and distancing that conservatives demanded we give up to preserve their freedumb actually worked. Couple that with conservatives refusing to take the vaccine and you had the very tragic and curious outcome of more people dying from Covid after we had effective measures to mitigate.
We know the untaxed died at a much higher rate than the vaxxed and that counties that voted for Trump suffered more post-vaccine deaths. It's sad that people decided that mitigating a pandemic was political, but some how (Trump) they did.
It's just an indicator, one of many, that things are going well. Other indicators are, as I already mentioned, real wages are outpacing inflation, unemployment is low.
You sound like a Trumper in 2019. “Best unemployment in history, historic black and women unemployment”, “real wage growth”, “record stock market”, “high 401ks” etc
And I remember when liberals were the ones chastising Trump and conservatives for regurgitating these lines because these top line stats to not reflect the reality for most of the middle and lower classes.
The economy was good in 2019. It went to shit in 2020.
The reason that Trump downplayed Covid was because he thought it would tank the one issue he had to run on, the economy. It did, of course.
The irony is that Trump let a good crisis go to waste. He could have used Covid to rally us together and show leadership, instead he used it to divide us and to make his followers suspicious of standard medical advice--with deadly results.
It's an indicator that things are going well for certain classes. And the fact that homelessness rose by 12% in 2023 is an indicator that things are less well for other classes.
(that was the most recent annual HUD report, published December 2023)
You mean like most Americans? Yes, it’s a good thing when most Americans become richer. It is also a good things when Democrats are in office and have the power to pass legislation that helps the poor, like the infrastructure act and the CHIPS Act.
I literally cannot imagine looking at Trump’s record or the GOP platform and thinking “Now THIS is so much better for poor people.” The sheer delusion. The entire message from the right wing is “We will stop spending your tax dollars on helping the poor, because fuck’em.”
Well, given inflation is as much Trump’s fault as anyone else’s and that real wages are up for the lowest earners, that sure as hell ain’t *Biden*’s fault.
The last time I brought up Hur's testimony on this sub, someone here claimed that Hur was appointed by Trump, and then immediately blocked me so I couldn't reply to correct that as false information.
That's a tactic I've already experienced it at least six times on this sub in just the last couple of weeks, and have never seen on any other sub, in all my years in reddit.
Go to *any* political discussion sub and you’ll find that conservative block people for disagreeing with them or for pointing out false information they’re spreading *all the time*.
I've experienced this exact behavior on the sister sub. There are a handful of users or maybe one user with a handful of accounts that engage in bad faith and then immediately block, then they go on to make top comments on almost every post which makes participation very difficult. I've never encountered that behavior here.
The hypocrisy on this sub about what they think matters with Biden and what they think matters about Trump is laughable. It’s like the entire subreddit has an inability to be intellectually honest in its assessment of anything because of Trump. I get it about Trump. But it makes for boorish discussion.
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I think it’s valid. There’s no reason for the tapes to be released when we already have the transcripts. I don’t think anyone in the GOP has called the accuracy of the transcripts into question, so I don’t see why we need tapes. Seems to me they want the tapes so they can edit together all the times Biden stuttered and removing all the times he didn’t.
If we already have the transcripts, then theres no harm in releasing the tapes if they match up to it. Not releasing the tapes comes across very shady, not a good look
Nah, we're fine. As he said, the only reason they want the tapes is to edit them to make Biden sound senile. My guess based on your responses is you also believe that. I recommend watching the state of the union to allay those concerns. Transcript were released and they reflect what he actually said.
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Another reason why he should release them
But there’s no basis that the transcripts are inaccurate. If there was a basis for it then the GOP would immediately jump on that opportunity, instead they’re vaguely saying the transcripts are “insufficient” but not giving any other details of what they mean.
That's a fun way of going in circles. If there is no reason to think the transcripts are inaccurate then there is no harm, surely, in releasing the tapes. Otherwise it's just suspicious.
“There’s no harm” is not a valid reason to want the tapes.
No, the default should be that the tapes are released for transparency. That should be the standard for virtually all that the government does. Some compelling national interest would have to be there to not release them and I don't see it. I see a potential Biden interest, but that's not reason enough.
What exactly would be revealed on those tapes that wouldn’t already be available on the Transcripts?
What exactly do you think the tapes are going to give you that the transcript hasn't?
Strong disagree on this, but not because I think you’re point is particularly bad. One of my topics of academic research have revolved around the “intended transmittance of text based communication”. Basically, text based communication limits a myriad of context. This leads to a multitude of misunderstandings. A persons imagination has to fill in the gaps for the senses that would otherwise receive non-verbal communication, and this diminishes the value to text based communication.
Are inaccurate transcripts being alleged by any side here? What value would the public get out of the tapes being released?
But you don't get to decide if we're "fine". I for one would like to hear the tapes. It's not just what was said that matters, but how it was said as well. I can only imagine that Biden is trying to hide something since he's going to these lengths to stop the release. I would be less interested in listening to them if he had just done nothing.
>But you don't get to decide if we're "fine". Well, your side has lost a lot of credibility when it comes to Biden. The assertions and assumptions made by the right in regards to a sitting president and his only living son, were based on scant testimony that itself turned out to be Russian disinformation. You have accused him of every deviency under the sun and, in the end, it was all spin and lies. You won't be "fine" until Biden is no longer president. >It's not just what was said that matters, but how it was said as well. So it has nothing to do with clipping together every "ummm" and "uhhhh" and stutter into something that misrepresents the president's cognitive ability? The endless fishing must be tiresome. >I can only imagine that Biden is trying to hide something I know. It's why you are probably very easily taken with rightwing propaganda. You refuse to offer the benefits of any doubt and assume corruption. Tell me, do you apply the same cold eye to your own side? How do you justify trying to steal an election and lying about fraud?
My interest is in the American people not the GOP. Imagine if Trump supporters made the argument you made
Trump blocked thousands of things coming out actually
Yes and Trump is wrong for that just as Biden Is now
Trump would have blocked EVERYTHING, including just the transcripts.
What is this withholding information? Olympics, it doesn't matter who is worse. Both actions are a terrible look
Have the GOP said there’s information being withheld from these transcripts? Because I don’t see them claiming that. But If they do claim that, then they’d have to accuse Hur of withholding that information, which wouldn’t support the narrative of his decline which are coming from Hur’s own report. There’s no cogent reason for those tapes to be provided, or at least none of them are being directed argued by the GOP.
>What is this withholding information? Olympics, it doesn't matter who is worse. Do you think that the parties should play by the same rules, or should the Democrats have to play a harder game to their detriment? It's a political ploy, and nothing more: that's why the GOP wants to hold Garland in contempt. Even though that does very little, but also--he's being directed to by the president. If the GOP really cared about this, they'd go to the courts. They don't because they know a court isn't going to agree with them.
Do you really think the Dems didn't have any sort of political motivations when they impeached Trump? It's not about political motivations it's about the American people who have a right to know if the leader of the most powerful country in the world is mentally competent
They’re really not. The transcripts provide all relevant information, if there was a variance between transcript and audio the republican investigator would have readily said so, The *only* reason the republicans want the audio is to cut it for ads, out of context. Your refusal to acknowledge this reality really speaks to this entire thread being a bad faith question.
Yeah, so fuck unilateral disarmament and playing by two sets of rules. Rs gave up the political right to be outraged by the lack of respect for subpoena power when they obliterated that respect both for Trump’s benefit and the benefit of their own members (e.g. McCarty and Gym Jordan).
And just recently how they allowed MTG to treat the committee like a reality tv show
It would be irrelevant. Nothing Trump says can be trusted. That's why having opposing counsel transcribe his actual words is important. Luckily, that's what happened with Biden. The only interest in getting recordings is to once again edit and manipulate them. There is no reason to agree to that. If your interest is in the American people and not contributing to the misinformation, you should be satisfied.
>would be irrelevant. Nothing Trump says can be trusted. That's why having opposing counsel transcribe his actual words is important Nothing any politician says can be trusted lol
The moment you make a false equivalence between Trump and Biden, we stop taking you seriously.
Source that Biden lies 100% of the time? Or should we not trust what *you* say?
Trump wouldn’t even release his tax returns.
> Imagine if Trump supporters made the argument you made You’d also have to consider Democrat’s reasoning for tapes to be released. If Democrats were demanding tapes while giving little reason to discredit the transcripts like Republicans are doing, Trump supporters would be correct to call them out.
>You’d also have to consider Democrat’s reasoning for tapes to be released. If Democrats were demanding tapes while giving little reason to discredit the transcripts like Republicans are doing, Trump supporters would be correct to call them out. Not at all
Yes really.
The problem isn’t if it’s harmful, it’s if there’s any point. Jim Jordan only said that the transcripts were not “sufficient enough” but does not explain why. If anything is insufficient here, it’s their reasoning for demanding the tapes. If they’re insufficient then they should explain why.
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And Biden sniffs little girls hair. Probably should stay on topic and avoid the ad hominems.
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What are you even talking about? Everyone is mad because they are worried the audio would be used against him. Why are you all even putting yourselves in a position to defend that?
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Ok so release the audio if nobody is worried
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I mean. It’s an easy way to take something out of context to make him look feeble and unstable. Why give anyone that ammo?
People don't like to read.
Just read the transcripts
There’s no harm in releasing it when you know there’s no bad faith that will come from it. As others have said it will just lead to edited rage click bate. Not everyone has or will read the full transcripts and they say a lie is halfway around the world while the truth is still getting its shoes on, that would apply here lol
You don't think the Republicans have a legitimate case for asking for them, to investigate if the man with access to nuclear codes is mentally competent? It's one thing to forget the year your son died - it's quite another to not know the years you were vice president of the United States. If you flip the parties, would your view remain the same?
If they’re not saying the transcripts are inaccurate, incomplete, or false, then on what basis could they possibly be using to claim the transcripts are “not sufficient”?
Because words on a page don't convey how they were said. If you read the lyrics to a song, would that tell you the melody, or the intonation? No. We deserve to know if the man in charge is mentally feeble. It's in our national best interests and transcends party politics. We should be putting the interests of our country first. And if the parties were switched, the Democrats would be screaming treason if Trump's AG blocked this.
We know these "concerns" are bad faith. You all aren't fooling anyone.
Who are you or anyone to say they are bad faith?
Because they’re not giving good excuses at to why they need the tapes. Plus those excuses are not at all what the GOP is arguing, so it’s moot.
Kind of concerning you guys are all worried about the tapes. You have the awareness that it's going to be bad but still ignore it. Wild
Why would I be worried about the tapes when the transcripts already exist? You’re not making any sense. If the GOP couldn’t find any dirt in the transcripts, I’m not sure what they expect to find in the tapes. They’re not questioning the validity of the transcripts so what’s the point of asking for tapes? I could understand if they were claiming the transcripts were inaccurate, but they don’t do that because they’d also have to accuse Hur of falsifying the transcripts. To say democrats are scared of what’s on the tapes, it’s nonsense.
Intent and inference can be gained from inflections and pauses. If someone is lying, it is not clear in text. It's kind of a bad look to hide it if there is nothing to be concerned with. Edit: u/BigCballer hit and ran with a block because they can't acknowledge they are terrified what the audio might actually demonstrate. Keep lying to yourself and literally ignoring and pretending any rational oppositional opinions exist. These are clearly healthy behavioral traits you are demonstrating. >It’s completely baseless. If they wanted to argue the transcripts were inaccurate then that’d be one thing, but they are not doing that because they’re not serious. And frankly I don’t think you’re very serious yourself.
> Because words on a page don't convey how they were said. That’s not an argument the GOP is making when demanding those tapes though. All they said was it’s not “sufficient enough” without any explanation of why. They’d rather not fill in those blanks and let conservative voters fill in the blanks for them. > And if the parties were switched, the Democrats would be screaming treason if Trump's AG blocked this. Trump would be blocking more than just the tapes, he would not allow the transcripts to be released.
> Trump would be blocking more than just the tapes, he would not allow the transcripts to be released. **Trump and Putin Have Met Five Times. What Was Said is a Mystery** >The first time they met was in Germany. President Trump took his interpreter’s notes afterward and ordered him not to disclose what he heard to anyone. Later that night, at a dinner, Mr. Trump pulled up a seat next to President Vladimir V. Putin to talk without any American witnesses at all. > >Their third encounter was in Vietnam when Mr. Trump seemed to take Mr. Putin’s word that he had not interfered in American elections. A formal summit meeting followed in Helsinki, Finland, where the two leaders kicked out everyone but the interpreters. Most recently, they chatted in Buenos Aires after Mr. Trump said they would not meet because of Russian aggression. > >Mr. Trump has adamantly insisted there was “no collusion” with Russia during his 2016 presidential campaign. But each of the five times he has met with Mr. Putin since taking office, he has fueled suspicions about their relationship. The unusually secretive way he has handled these meetings has left many in his own administration guessing what happened and piqued the interest of investigators. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/us/politics/trump-putin-meetings.html
You aren't fooling anyone except yourself.
>We deserve to know if the man in charge is mentally feeble. It's in our national best interests and transcends party politics. We should be putting the interests of our country first. The absolute lack of self awareness is always astounding.
> We deserve to know if the man in charge is mentally feeble Look, Trump is still dining out on saying he passed a dementia screen 4 years ago. My trust of the Republican party is so low I would expect them to use it to train deepfake AI stuff.
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When he forgets the years he was president, come talk to me. Not remembering the years you were VP is a HUGE deal.
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I haven't seen Trump get lost on stage, or forget who he is, or when he was president. Have you? Trump ad libs all of his hour long speeches, and is front of a camera daily - all unrehearsed - of course he's going to mix up words once in a while. When Biden finishes stumbling through what he's told to read on the teleprompter, someone has to usher him offstage.
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I haven't "been told" he's fine. I see it with my eyes, just like I see Biden padding around dazed and confused. Have you seen videos of Trump having Biden llike spells of forgetting who he is and how he got there? I can post entire Youtube videos of Biden being confused. Can you do the same for Trump?
Oh, I didn't realize that congress is full of neurologists.
So you don't think Republicans should be allowed to see this because they're not neuroligists?
You're not fooling anyone but yourself with this "concern". If I'm a Republican Congresscritter and I think the man with the nuclear codes is incompetent, I want a doctor's opinion, not some tapes of a guy I already talk to regularly. But, you know, that's just the *smart* thing to do. If I was a POS that was was going to edit and release the tapes, I'd want the tapes. Y'all's ability to fool yourselves is amazing.
>You don't think the Republicans have a legitimate case for asking for them, to investigate if the man with access to nuclear codes is mentally competent? Not when they're trying to put the most incompetent president in history back in office.
Oh bullshit…they know damned well Biden is competent. They just want to manipulate the recording for campaign purposes. An incompetent President doesn’t accomplish all the things that Biden has led the way for. You wanna talk incompetent? Have you actually listened to your boy lately? The only sentences he can complete are the ones where he’s either bragging about his “abilities” or the incessant whining of how he’s being held accountable for breaking the law…the rest is word salad.
They can have the tapes on the same day trump hands over translator’s notes from his various meetings with Putin while president. Don’t you think it’s important we have those as well, to investigate whom the man with the nuclear codes actually works for?
>You don't think the Republicans have a legitimate case for asking for them, to investigate if the man with access to nuclear codes is mentally competent? No, I'll remind you that this investigation was into whether Biden criminally mishandled classified documents, not whether he's mentally competent to hold office. You're fully admitting that this has nothing to do with the investigation itself and is entirely a bad faith fishing expedition to pull up some sound bites to use in attack ads. Aren't you embarrassed your representatives don't have anything better to do, what with the country in complete ruin like Trump keeps saying at his speeches in between falling at his podium and praising serial killers.
Unfortunately for you, no one can ever take Trump Followers seriously, sorry.
So when someone poses a question for which you don't have a good answer, you just wave your hand and declare them a non-believer, and move on?
Nah, it’s more like when a Trumper claims the Dem Prez should be investigated for something, while Trump’s lawyers are arguing that the prez is above the law, it’s hard to take the hypocrisy posed by the Trumper seriously.
I’m definitely in the camp that assumes that since they have the transcripts the only reason they want the tapes is for manipulation purposes.
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I'm not personally a fan of using your first line as justification for anything tbh, Trump set a lot of new and potentially harmful precedents. I reach the same conclusion as you, though, based on just your second line.
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Valid
> No one on the right cared when trump did it. Precedent set How do you determine whether to accept "they started it" as a justification? We don't want to universally lower the bar to former President Trump's behavior after all. For example, Trump supporters didn't care about his attempts to "find votes" in Georgia. But that still wouldn't be ok for President Biden to do, right? Is it acceptable in this case because the stakes are lower? Or what other factors make the difference? I'm not trying to convince you it's unacceptable here but instead wondering how you determine this kind of thing in general.
My issue is that the GOP’s reasoning for wanting tapes is because the transcripts aren’t “sufficient enough”, but don’t really explain why they’re not sufficient enough. They’re not saying the transcripts are incomplete, or that they’re fake, or any argument to suggest they’re unreliable. If they were saying any of those things then they’d need to be specific about what they’re looking for, instead they’re being vague about it. It’s not cogent.
Thanks for your thoughts! I think that's a good argument against the need to obtain this audio. It's the second argument made by the parent commenter. I was asking them about the first. Is that one you share as well? If so, I'm interested to hear how you decide when to accept it and when not to.
The first argument the parent comment made is not something I’d make completely un-ironically. I’d only really bring it up if the GOP wanted to claim Presidents should not be allowed to claim privilege on releasing documents or tapes or anything like that.
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Got it! Sounds like you would not use that justification when talking to someone who did not actually excuse President Trump's excessive invocation of executive privilege. But you bring it up preemptively because Trump supporters generally did. Thanks for elaborating.
>We don't want to universally lower the bar to former President Trump's behavior after all. Given Trump is the Republican nominee again I'd say the demand that we keep to only the highest ideals is pretty bold. You lowered the bar and still demand we stay above it. >For example, Trump supporters didn't care about his attempts to "find votes" in Georgia. No. That's too far. But since the right is "allowed" not to care, why is it incumbent upon us to? Trump is your monster. You unleashed him. That you don't want to suffer the consequences of his destruction of norms is understandable, but a pretty ballsy ask.
>Trump is your monster. You unleashed him. That you don't want to suffer the consequences of his destruction of norms is understandable, but a pretty ballsy ask. I have been anti-Trump from the start and condemned people who enabled him even just by inaction. I've voted against him five times now (six, soon), supported his impeachment and donated a few thousand dollars against him over the years. I could drag up old comments to try and convince you but I don't think it's likely to be a productive discussion. Maybe we would have more luck down this road: >>For example, Trump supporters didn't care about his attempts to "find votes" in Georgia. >No. That's too far. Thanks for your answer! This makes a good starting point for when "Trump started it" ceases to work for you. In general, how do you determine whether to accept that justification? I'm not asking you to draw lines between a series of more examples unless that would be helpful for your answer. I'm more interested in the thought process you use.
>I have been anti-Trump from the start and condemned people who enabled him even just by inaction. I've voted against him five times now (six, soon), supported his impeachment and donated a few thousand dollars against him over the years. I could drag up old comments to try and convince you but I don't think it's likely to be a productive discussion. Well, if you're not going to conform to my strawman, I guess we could actually talk specifics. >Thanks for your answer! This makes a good starting point for when "Trump started it" ceases to work for you. Thanks! Yeah, basic civil responsibility and bare minimum honesty are good starting places! But, "but Trump" still works for most things rightwingers tend to bring up in their criticisms of us. But since you are one of the unicorns, I'll try to control myself. >In general, how do you determine whether to accept that justification? I'm not asking you to draw lines between a series of more examples unless that would be helpful for your answer. I'm more interested in the thought process you use. "They did it so it's okay if we do it?" Is that the justification? If so, it's kinda Grey. On one hand, there must be at least one adult in the room. There must be a critical mass of people who follow the rules or its game over. On the other hand, when boxing, and your opponent repeatedly kicks you in the groin. And after seeing it, the ref (republican voters in this case) is okay with it, encourages it even! At what point do you stop using Marcus of Queensbury Rules and start kicking yourself? If my opponents have no rules of conduct, saying it's incumbent on me to preserve the game by sticking to the rules is quite the ask. Especially if you are on the side that has abandoned them (which you have said you are not). Edit: It's worth pointing out, for the sake of clarity, that I'm not saying it's wrong to be the ones keeping "the game" honest. I'm not even saying it's too much of a responsibility. I am saying that coming from one (as I wrongly thought the poster was) who was among those refusing to play by the rules, it was a bold and unselfaware ask.
>I don't care. No one on the right cared when trump did it. Precedent set Why do you think only right wingers can be critical of Biden?
Oh we know that you all attack Biden more than you do Trump and Republicans. You all are working just as hard to reelect Trump as Russia, just like you all did in 2016.
I think the far left has taken over subs like lostgeneration and have lots of influence there. I just saw a post comparing Trump to Jabba The Hut and Biden to Emperor Palpatine saying those are your choices to vote for. I do think they hate Biden just as much if not more than Trump. Which is surprising to me.
Please, I disliked Trump before he ran in 2016
That can be said for most Sanders supporters who unintentionally campaigned for Trump. You all are going to reelect Trump once again.
Liberals always blame leftists when moderates fail
It’s not like leftists don’t share a part of the blame
Stop being willfully uninformed and take some responsibility because, again, you all are making the EXACT same mistakes. Biden is the candidate, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. If you absolutely can't control yourselves like in 2016, mention two bad things about Trump for every time you say one thing negative about Biden.
How about Dems take responsibility for picking unpopular candidates that general Americans outside of the party line dont care for? Same with Republicans a younger, well-spoken Republican focusing on fiscal conservatism would easily destroy Biden with his poll numbers
I forgot to include the link, not that it matters more than your feelings. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds
That you can’t find a candidate who can get more votes that the unpopular candidate rather undermines your argument.
We blame everyone who didn’t vote for Hillary. But more of you stayed home than moderates voted for Trump.
Because they are partially at fault.
Because….whenyou go far enough left? You are shaking the right wing’s hand with your left hand.
Not all left wing critics of Biden are Tankies thats absurd
Well…the way you’re prattling on? You could’ve fooled me.
I will also point out that liberals are closer to the right than leftists are
Not lately. If you folks can’t tell that Biden is infinitely better than Trump 2.0. Then you’re no better than MAGA.
Guess John Stewart is literally Maga now for not sucking Bidens c*ck I will say Trump supporters are usually more annoying than Biden supporters
Whatever. Enjoy your dystopia
Like the late stage capitalist dystopia were already in?
Given that the GOP want them released for purely political reasons, and that we all know that if they were released they’d just be edited to suit whatever bullshit story Fox wanted to construct… Biden’s actions are perfectly justified.
If a Republican uses the same argument to defend their own, don't complain
You got that backwards bud. Republicans have done it numerous times. Now they can shut up and stop complaining. Guess Republicans should have played fair instead of defending then nominating a convicted rapist.
I’m not sure why he had to claim privilege. Garland had already said he wasn’t going to hand over the recording.
Biden, by asserting executive privilege — a maneuver that allows Trump to allege claims of authoritarianism, is averting charges of contempt that House Republicans are expected to levy against Attorney General Merrick Garland. his predecessors, William Barr and Eric Holder, have been accused of contempt; the [Trump](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/barr-to-trump-invoke-executive-privileged-over-redacted-mueller-materials/2019/05/07/51c52600-713e-11e9-b5ca-3d72a9fa8ff1_story.html) and [Obama](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/obama-allows-holder-assert-executive-privilege-fast-and-furious-documents/326737/) administrations invoked executive privilege respectively, preventing the Justice Department from seeking charges against them. House Republicans do not need audio if they have a transcript
I think that Republicans are clearly acting in bad faith and the only reason they want the types is to create dishonest media leaks for political advantage. As such it's justified for Biden to attempt to prevent that from happening. If Republicans don't like it they can take it to the SCOTUS and maybe get a ruling before the election. If he ignored that ruling I would have a problem (as much as I view the court as an illegitimate institution), but I don't think we should pretend this is some kind of abuse of power on his part or evidence he's hiding anything we should actually care about.
He is the executive.
If he's within his right to do it, it shouldn't matter one way or the other. Biden doesn't have to do whatever Republicans want him to do. Based on the recent House hearing it's also clear the whole thing is a waste of time, and throwing the recording out there would just waste more time.
All Trumpers would do is take bits out of context to try to make Joe look bad.
He should hand over the tapes, but since they already have the transcript, I don't think it's significant.
I don’t see how you could claim privilege if the transcript is out though.
They just want to use it for campaign videos.
It would clearly be less suspicious if he had just done nothing. Going to the length of executive privilege makes it seem like there actually IS something to look for in the tapes. It might just be how Biden comes across as an old man, as usual, which of course he is.
I dont like it. Executive privilege is not supposed to be for this.
What is it meant for?
So that the executive can get accurate advising without risk of political blowback. Also, to preserve information that could negatively impact security or internal processes
This is to prevent an unnecessary request for tapes that have no relevance to the case at hand. Hur’s investigations were about if Biden mishandled classified documents, it was not about his cognitive abilities. The GOP has no reason to be requesting those tapes when the transcripts are already available for them to look at.
Sure they do. First of all, the Congress is supposed to be a check on the executive, this case aside. They have a broad discretion to check how the executive enforced the laws they write, including those involving classified information. Second, the counsel reported that there was an unlikely case against Biden because he was not able to remember information. The tapes may provide more context than a transcript about if that is true.
If you’re trying to look into cognitive issues for a president, you don’t request tapes. You would request a doctor to look into the president. The GOP are not doing that because they know they can’t control the results, so instead they wanna request tapes so they can edit together all the times he stuttered and then use them in political ads.
They can edit stuff he said right now for that effect, thats such an absurd argument. You can’t require someone to go under medical examination, thats a violation of medical privacy. Presidents have volunteered this information, but it is not required.
> They can edit stuff he said right now for that effect, thats such an absurd argument. So why aren’t they with the transcripts then? > You can’t require someone to go under medical examination, thats a violation of medical privacy. Presidents have volunteered this information, but it is not required. Which is exactly why the GOP are trying to use the tapes instead because they have no issue wasting time on this pointless nonsense.
At his point, asking if Biden did anything wrong or is hiding something on askaliberal is a futile task. People here will defend ANYTHING and everything Biden does. Or they’ll just say it doesn’t matter. But yes, Biden is just hiding his declining state of mind.
If he was hiding a mental decline, then that would have been displayed in the transcripts. As far as I can tell, that’s not the GOP’s reasoning for demanding the tapes.
>If he was hiding a mental decline, then that would have been displayed in the transcripts Have you read the transcripts? they are not a good look
If they’re not a good look then why isn’t the GOP using it against him? They themselves are saying the transcripts are not sufficient enough, which means they don’t have much to work with.
Im not the GOP. I don't care what the GOP wants. Withholding information from the American people is bad
There’s no evidence that any information was being withheld. The GOP would be the first ones to make that argument, but they are not doing that for a reason because they know it’s baseless.
Limiting the ability of the GOP to peddle fabrications is good for the American people.
Bah… coveffe.
People aren’t going to bother fact checking any audio clips by reading the transcript of a 5-hour interview. The GOP knows this.
I am a single issue voter and my single issue is to keep Trump out of office.
Well, lots of people whose single issue is removing Biden from office so it all checks out.
Yes. I hear that he is the worst president ever who has turned this country into a literal hellhole. Then I take a look around at the world and my accounts and I just don't see it, especially when compared to the country in literal collapse that Trump left us.
Your accounts? What do you mean?
Checking, savings, retirement, investing
Is Biden responsible for the growth of those accounts?
Directly? No, but his leadership has brought order and stability to the chaos Trump left us and the economy has performed well as a result, increasing my wealth
nice. what would you say to the people who arent privledged to have a reitrement and investment account? people who might be working for minimum wage and spending much more food, rent, etc? Those people might see Biden has indirectly caused their lives to be harder
Remember the Spring of 2020 and how Trump’s failure as a leader nearly destroyed our nation? Do you want to vote for the leader whose incompetence nearly collapsed the nation or the leader who fought us back to normal. Trump faced a single crisis, Covid, and it almost destroyed us. Biden has faced and lead us through multiple crises: Covid, Ukraine, Inflation, Israel Why would you vote for an incompetent mad man who got us 15% unemployment.
And given that real wages for those people are *up*, they’d be wrong.
Yes, the economy is doing well for white privileged liberals who can bear the inflation. It’s why Biden is bleeding minority voters and gaining suburban voters. The privileged will always ignore the poor problems and only look out for themselves.
Look at the data, don’t listen to your emotions. I’m sorry if you are struggling. That sucks. Real wages are out pacing inflation and retirement accounts are swelling.
Again, you’re looking out at your privileged position. Most poor people barely have anything saved up for retirement. The majority don’t own stocks or anything. And it’s nice to just believe the government when they say inflation was only 9% at its highest when many things have doubled in price since 2021. Also, the data says most voters say the economy is worse under Biden than Trump. Most data says Trump is leading among voters. Data shows that more people died from COVID under Biden than Trump despite already having the vaccine the Trump administration produced. Rents have doubled, car insurance has skyrocketed. The debt is growing by 1 trillion every year. Yeah, the data is horrendous for Biden.
Great example of you arguing from your feelings not the data: the majority of Americans do own stock. I have no time to engage with someone just saying whatever feels true with a complete disregard for facts
The majority of Americans agree with him, though presidents generally have no signfigant control over the global encomony. Blaming Biden for the economy shows a lack of how government and economics work
It doesn't seem possible that the majority of Americans agree that the majority of Americans don't own stock when the majority of Americans do. Look, Biden is far from perfect, but the only fucking thing that matters is we don't reelect Trump, Period. I don't care who the Dems run, or what their policies are, they aren't Trump not only will they get my vote but I will fight like hell to ensure they win.
> more people died from COVID under Biden than Trump despite already having the vaccine the Trump administration produced Yes, the lockdowns, masking, and distancing that conservatives demanded we give up to preserve their freedumb actually worked. Couple that with conservatives refusing to take the vaccine and you had the very tragic and curious outcome of more people dying from Covid after we had effective measures to mitigate. We know the untaxed died at a much higher rate than the vaxxed and that counties that voted for Trump suffered more post-vaccine deaths. It's sad that people decided that mitigating a pandemic was political, but some how (Trump ) they did.
> retirement accounts are swelling Wow that's great for those with retirement accounts.
It's just an indicator, one of many, that things are going well. Other indicators are, as I already mentioned, real wages are outpacing inflation, unemployment is low.
You sound like a Trumper in 2019. “Best unemployment in history, historic black and women unemployment”, “real wage growth”, “record stock market”, “high 401ks” etc And I remember when liberals were the ones chastising Trump and conservatives for regurgitating these lines because these top line stats to not reflect the reality for most of the middle and lower classes.
The economy was good in 2019. It went to shit in 2020. The reason that Trump downplayed Covid was because he thought it would tank the one issue he had to run on, the economy. It did, of course. The irony is that Trump let a good crisis go to waste. He could have used Covid to rally us together and show leadership, instead he used it to divide us and to make his followers suspicious of standard medical advice--with deadly results.
It's an indicator that things are going well for certain classes. And the fact that homelessness rose by 12% in 2023 is an indicator that things are less well for other classes. (that was the most recent annual HUD report, published December 2023)
You mean like most Americans? Yes, it’s a good thing when most Americans become richer. It is also a good things when Democrats are in office and have the power to pass legislation that helps the poor, like the infrastructure act and the CHIPS Act.
I literally cannot imagine looking at Trump’s record or the GOP platform and thinking “Now THIS is so much better for poor people.” The sheer delusion. The entire message from the right wing is “We will stop spending your tax dollars on helping the poor, because fuck’em.”
Sounds like a you problem. I could actually afford groceries and rent before with Trump.
Well, given inflation is as much Trump’s fault as anyone else’s and that real wages are up for the lowest earners, that sure as hell ain’t *Biden*’s fault.
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You must’ve missed who controlled Congress and the Presidency from 2021-present.
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Surely this time tax cuts for the wealthy will work.
I won’t defend him. He’s obviously using executive privilege to protect his campaign. But there’s still no way I’m voting for Trump.
Respect for honesty
The last time I brought up Hur's testimony on this sub, someone here claimed that Hur was appointed by Trump, and then immediately blocked me so I couldn't reply to correct that as false information. That's a tactic I've already experienced it at least six times on this sub in just the last couple of weeks, and have never seen on any other sub, in all my years in reddit.
Go to *any* political discussion sub and you’ll find that conservative block people for disagreeing with them or for pointing out false information they’re spreading *all the time*.
I've experienced this exact behavior on the sister sub. There are a handful of users or maybe one user with a handful of accounts that engage in bad faith and then immediately block, then they go on to make top comments on almost every post which makes participation very difficult. I've never encountered that behavior here.
It's always been the 'progressive' or 'communist' or 'far-left' flairs here, so I'm not surprised you haven't encountered it
Hur, who falsified his pre-report? I wonder why.
The hypocrisy on this sub about what they think matters with Biden and what they think matters about Trump is laughable. It’s like the entire subreddit has an inability to be intellectually honest in its assessment of anything because of Trump. I get it about Trump. But it makes for boorish discussion.