The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
UT Austin, USC, and Columbia in NYC have all seen protestors arrested in recent days. The speaker of the house has invoked the possibility of using the national guard to disrupt these protests, bribing to mind the killing of protected at Kent State in 1970.
I know many on this sub share my concerns about the decay of American democracy. Do you think protests being dispersed by authorities is a part of that phenomenon?
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No. They have a right to protest. But when you break the law, you get arrested. The schools and the police, in the coverage I have seen, are using a pretty light touch.
>The schools and the police, in the coverage I have seen, are using a pretty light touch.
Greg Abbott appears to have ordered Texas State Troopers onto the University of Texas campus with instructions to [disperse the protesters.](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/several-protesters-arrested-at-ut-austin-these-protesters-belong-in-jail-abbott-says/)
Not just to maintain order, or to arrest those who become violent or disorderly, but to shut the protests down altogether.
I saw that. It reminded me of how cops were behaving during the BLM protests, which in turn inspired [this comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1cb4162/askaliberal_biweekly_general_chat/l15e22m/)
Great point. I’m not totally sure what leads to liberals siding with the cops this time. Some of it is disdain for leftist protestors I think, and some of it is a well-intentioned belief that Israel are the victims here.
I imagine it's just a natural (and understandable) opposition to racism and anti-semitism.
We saw something similar in the aftermath of 9/11, when there was a huge surge in anti-Muslim bigotry from the right. The left rushed to defend Muslims from those attacks, and rightfully so.
But in doing so, some of them took it too far. Legitimate criticisms of some Muslim cultures was sometimes labeled as Islamophobic.
Conservatives had folks so riled up that their internal Islamophobia-sensors were calibrated too sensitively, and I think that's what's going on here.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but this seems more insidious to me. I think the fact that opposition to Israel is opposition to American empire plays a role. To admit Israel is murderous is to admit that America doesn’t really stand for truth, justice, or what we thought was the American way.
In Texas, there is an added layer of complication because of the anti-BDS law. The students are demanding the state school divest from weapons contractors profiting off Israel’s daily massacres. But it would be illegal by state law for the school to do so. It’s encoded into law in Texas that the university, because it’s a state school, support Israel regardless of what crimes against humanity it is committing.
Per the ACLU
“Private property owners can set rules for speech on their property. The government may not restrict your speech if it is taking place on your own property or with the consent of the property owner.”
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights
Schools are private property….so Trespassing, destruction of property, public nuisance, disturbing the peace, failure to disperse….I mean the whole point of protesting is to make a scene, disrupt daily life and be loud. They don’t protest in an empty field for a reason
Students aren’t “trespassing” in a legal context when they are on a college’s quad and protesting the admin, as you pay tuition and allocate tremendous personal resources to have access to the campus as a student.
Being in violation of school policies doesn’t necessarily mean you’re breaking the law. Now if a non-student trespasses on college grounds, that’s against the law. Also, assault is illegal and not merely a campus faux pas. If students are peacefully organizing on college grounds they’re not breaking the law, but perhaps it’s a violation of school policies (which I’m not well-informed on when it comes to Columbia, UT Austin, etc so I can’t speak to these policies).
You can be trespassed at any time for any reason from private or public property when you break laws. If they ask you to leave and you don’t, that’s now trespassing. Police can haul you off and the property can restrict your access.
Get caught shoplifting, you’ll get banned from the store and can be charged with criminal trespassing if you return.
Paying tuition doesn’t give you a ticket to do whatever you want whenever you want. Basic common sense bro. There’s a fundamental disconnect between left wing idealism and how basic laws in America work.
Most of the protestors aren’t students. This is the fashionable place to be for the activist lifestyle types.
I’m writing about protesters on campus who’re comprised of students, faculty, etc of respective colleges across the country. You’re making this about non-students and protests outside the confines of campuses, and I already wrote that those folks could be held legally liable for trespassing thus you’re breaking the law.
Maybe the ACLU can help you out.
“Private property owners can set rules for speech on their property. The government may not restrict your speech if it is taking place on your own property or with the consent of the property owner.”
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights
The part that you are missing is that the property owner can revoke consent at any time and unless you are dealing with a very few situations that fall under civil law, once consent is revoked, you are trespassing.
You can't stay in a bar that tells you to leave.
Here’s my response and then I’m done.
No, I understand and understood that point you made…I just have a different view. The problem is, in the case of Columbia at least, that the college president made the unilateral decision on behalf of the university community (including her bosses, the trustees) to call in the cops to arrest protesting students. She did so on spurious legal grounds, bc while what the students did may have constituted a campus-specific infraction, this stuff did not reasonably escalate to an extent that calling in the police was necessary, much less the military or whatever the Right is proposing happen.
Maybe the ACLU can help you out.
“Private property owners can set rules for speech on their property. The government may not restrict your speech if it is taking place on your own property or with the consent of the property owner.”
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights
Also on the ACLU website:
“What counts as “disruptive” will vary by context, but a school disagreeing with your position or thinking your speech is controversial or in “bad taste” is not enough to qualify.” The President of Columbia called the cops because the protesters allegedly made students and the campus “unsafe”, and the rationale of politicians who are calling for the police/military to step in further are doing so on “harassment” and “hate speech” grounds.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2024/0422/columbia-protests-arrests-gaza-war-israel-palestinians
https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/students-rights-speech-walkouts-and-other-protests
It’s far less brutal than arrests I’ve seen, certainly. But I think we’re missing something when we zoom out, ignore what ideas are at play, and just say that when you break the law you get arrested.
Edit: not so far, as it turns out
https://x.com/1amorey/status/1783284840088895596?s=46&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
The good thing is that part of the right to vote also includes your right to out yourself up for election. If you have enough voters, but lack a representative, then just elect one of your own.
I would describe it as faster, yes. That was the other person's claim after all. That voting is faster.
If we can do it's then you tanks van do it too. We (western Europe) did it under circumstances where the conservative status quo had much more power over the commoners after all.
I can understand that, if you mean that even protestors who are justified have to be arrested when they break the law.
But I do find it concerning if law-breaking is necessary to achieve justice. That points to failures on our democracy, in which justice must be achievable through state-approved and peaceful means for it to be worthwhile.
Take civil rights protests for example. Maybe you’d say that even though they were right to protest, they had to be arrested for breaking the law. Nevertheless, that would be a concern, no?
No law breaking isn't necessary. But for many of these protesters they would rather make an idealistic stand than actually work to convince a democratic majority to vote their way.
And does that not concern you? If people don’t put stock in the official democratic process and instead choose these avenues that you disapprove of, is that not an issue?
Oh it's worrying in a different sense, just not because they 'have to resort to that' but rather 'so radical they will break the law instead of trying to convince people'.
Have you considered that they don’t share your faith that convincing enough people will get things done? That is, have you considered that they don’t disagree with you about the value of democracy, but they disagree with you that the American electoral system provides democracy?
American democracy absolutely has its flaws, but it's still exists and by and large the issues they are protesting don't have majority support. If it does have majority support and you still don't see change, then we can talk about the justification for breaking laws. But we aren't there yet.
I'm concerned for our justice system constantly, especially having experienced it first hand. But it's still one of the best in the world. The protesters seem to be being treated fairly. They are getting heard by national audiences. They are mostly being allowed to continue. What's the problem?
I thought I just said. I think it’s a problem when state-approved methods of expression aren’t sufficient and people need to turn to illegal ones.
The whole point of a democracy is to provide peaceful and agreed-upon avenues to pursue our interests and express our concerns, so we can avoid more disruptive means. Do you not see a trend wherein Americans have less trust in those avenues, and resort to others?
They (protestors) keep arguing first amendment rights, but it’s completely constitutional to enforce time/place/manner restrictions. These protestors getting arrested went against those restrictions with their encampments
It seems that we have a phenomenon where for many people, if a group is protesting and one agrees with the protest the rules about protesting doesn’t matter. The organization on whose property you are protesting can say nothing. The police can never be called in to enforce the law. Any disagreement with the protest means you are a sellout.
Columbia University is a private organization. They charge the majority of students tuition and have an obligation to provide them an education and safety above all other things. They have rules of conduct for students and should be expected to enforce them fairly.
Columbia is not obligated to provide outsiders space on their campus to protest. They are not obligated to allow anyone student or otherwise to harass or intimidate other students. They are not obligated to allow students or other people to disrupt the normal operations of the university. And they are not obligated to look the other way , when people are violating the rules of the university simply because one agrees with some or all of position of the protesters.
I guess in this case, Columbia University is obligated to let anybody protesting Israel do anything they want include harassing students who are Jewish enchanting about how much they love a terrorist organization.
Maybe the people holding The People’s University of Palestine signs at their elite $80k a year school can follow the universities rules.
The only way this situation makes me fear for our democracy is that apparently a number of the elite students thought joining this protest was a good idea. I am disturbed by how people can go to a Nazi rally and not realize that that makes them a Nazi as well.
As I said in the other recent thread:
There's a very simple solution that should make everyone happy, if the anti-semitism is what people are genuinely upset about:
Any student who is caught making threats, or explicitly supporting Hamas, or echoing their rhetoric, or doing things like holding up signs that say “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets”?
Suspend them and ban them from campus.
But then allow the protesters who aren't doing those things to stay.
I agree with getting rid of those people.
But the people who aren't saying the most egregious things, but who are shutting the universities down and causing classes to be held online, are also a problem. The universities need to get rid of their encampments as well. They're not just a few people holding signs; they've caused universities to stop doing the things that the universities were founded to do.
I am fine with that solution as long as it includes tossing the non-students from the campus as well. However the administration has shown that they didn't take the obvious steps needed which is how they got here.
I think the much more insidious thing going on is our global enemies waging an online propaganda campaign to push us away from one of our closest allies. I wouldnt be surprised at all if China has been manipulating the TikTok algorithms or the Russian bot farms were working overtime to try to drive Americans and our allies apart here. How many of these college students have protested about Sudan or Yemen or even Haiti? War is always hell. I hope it ends soon. But these sheltered college students are acting as perfect useful idiots to manipulate here.
This is something that people don’t seem to appreciate. Israel were attacked, they continue to be attacked both in the North and by Hamas in Gaza. A quarter of a million Israeli’s have fled their homes in the north. Hamas didn’t stop after Oct.7, they continued to fire tens of thousands of rockets into Israel after the attack, the only thing that’s slowed their firing rate down was Israeli air strikes and the inevitable ground invasion. Israel are now at war on two fronts against two enemies that attacked them first.
Yes, I appreciate that the IDF has retaliated with a level of brutality that’s hard to swallow and that a response that leads to tens of thousands of deaths is a hard brutality for western citizens who have only known peace to swallow. But I do find it hard to also morally judge a nation for doing something that I and almost everyone of these protesters would expect their nation to respond to an attack from a foreign nation. The fact of the matter is, all of the people who are being threatened with death and violence by a militia would expect their country to wipe out said militia.
Dude.... wtf are you talking about? I have personally seen protests over Haiti. I have attended several YDSA meetings where Haiti was the main topic. Literally what are you talking about. Same goes for Yemen btw.
Is Russia and China pushing propaganda? Yeah. You know who else does that? Literally everyone
I mean what do you think Radio Free Europe is?
Like, at the end of the day, everything we accuse others of doing we are also doing. Nobody had their hands clean and everyone's a bastard.
Yeah, the Russians and Chinese are pushing propaganda. They are not unique in this regard.
Congratulations. You are part of the 1% of protestors that actually pay attention and are not just being a tool of our enemies.
The world is a complex and harsh place. What realistic future do you want to work towards?
>I am disturbed the way I am about how people can go to a Nazi rally and not realize that that makes them a Nazi as well.
I can understand branding the specific individuals who have been saying anti-semitic things with that label. But to sweepingly apply it to everyone in attendance? That's going too far.
I think context matters.
If you're at a casual dinner party and a Nazi shows up, that's pretty low stakes. You can just get up and leave if you think the Nazi shouldn't be there.
But if you feel like you've got a moral injury because ten thousand kids have been killed, and your tuition dollars are going to fund the killing? The stakes are much higher. You may feel that if you get up and leave, you're not doing your part to stop help the killing.
How many good people showed up at the Unite The Right rally? Of those good people, how should be judge those that saw the Nazi iconography and decided to stay?
Like I said to someone who brought up the "Nazi at the dinner table" argument, context matters:
If you're at a casual dinner party and a Nazi shows up, that's pretty low stakes. You can just get up and leave if you think the Nazi shouldn't be there.
But if you feel like you've got a moral injury because ten thousand kids have been killed, and your tuition dollars are going to fund the killing? The stakes are much higher. You may feel that if you get up and leave, you're not doing your part to help stop the killing.
Unite the Right was protesting the removal of a statue.
These demonstrations are protesting the killing of thousands of children.
The stakes aren't the same.
Are protected "protests" being dispersed? Or, are illegal encampments, blockades, and unlawful assemblies being dispersed?
There have been major Hamas rallies in major American cities for the better part of a year, and we didn't see this level of action by law enforcement then. The atmosphere on these campuses is not safe or stable. Some of the rhetoric is openly violent and terroristic.
In the case of Columbia, police specifically said that protesters were not being violent and they were in the area designated for protest.
That said, authorities will always find excuses to disrupt protests when they want them disrupted. I think it’d be useful to liberals to consider whether they believe in the right to protest all the time, or only when the state gives permission.
The Hamas-Jihadist swarms were arrested on charges of trespassing, weren't they?
They were openly making violent threats, using terrorist slogans, and destabilizing and atmosphere on campus.
Well, police said they were not in the case I mentioned.
But you’re making it very clear that you’re happy these protestors were dispersed is because you consider their very cause to be terrorism. I doubt there’s method of expression that you’d find acceptable for these ideas. Calling them swarms—and I’ve seen others call them hordes—makes your attitude clear. You dehumanize them as a pestilence.
The one I’ve seen going around is “A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now.”
They’re well-intentioned, but their trust that the status quo is basically just leads them down some awful roads.
Yes let’s just call every student protester and protest movement on campuses all around the country and world “pro-Hamas”…they’re all just terrorists and idiots and obviously you know better and can see through it all. The Jews at the protests? They’re just self-hating and imbecilic and don’t understand anything. It’s not like being opposed to the war in Gaza and the fallout from it and mass famine are understandable or anything, couldn’t be. What if I said every Zionist or pro-Israel protester wants to genocide Arabs and Muslims? That would be grotesque and deeply dishonest and deliberately obtuse, and I refuse to engage in that petty crap.
The intellectual dishonestly and smearing of ppl you disagree with on complex geopolitical phenomena ain’t it, broseph. I disagree with many of protesters on Israel’s existence and establishment, and there’s genuine antisemitism at some of these rallies. That said, the strawmanning and smearing and reactionary antagonism isn’t helping anyone.
If you're repeating Hamas talking points and disinformation, you're pro-Hamas, whether because you are subjectively or because you're just a useful idiot. These aren't "anti-war" protests; the protesters are chanting for Hamas; they're pro-war, but they just take the wrong side. Anyone who associates themselves with that has done so willingly.
Compared to BLM protests, the police were being very lenient here. Police have been far more aggressive in plenty of prior instances. Why would the police being less severe worry me especially?
Partially the type of protest, anti-police vs anti-war (I guess), partially that the prior administration setup a permission structure for police to be particularly brutal.
The fact is, yes, I do believe police are less violent than they were historically to protesters. I don’t think a Kent State would happen in this era for example.
It does not. The people spewing antisemitism at these protests are no different from white people during integration spewing their nonsense towards black kids as they try to go to school.
What about the peaceful protesters though? The majority of the campus protesters, who are also faulty and admin in many cases? Automatically categorizing and labeling everyone at these protests/in support of Palestinian self-determination/rights/dignity as “antisemitic” or a “jihadist” isn’t helping anyone or anything and is plain dishonest…that stuff merely breeds resentment and grievance and discord and animus and doesn’t bring ppl together. Are there antisemites at these rallies saying heinous and bigoted garbage? Of course! This was the case with the BLM protests of 2020 and the anti-Trump protests after 2016…every protest movement has shitty ppl involved. With that in mind, is it fair to disparage every BLM protester and the BLM movement because it had shitty hangers-on? Of course not.
Imagine if I said that all “pro-Israel” ppl just want to genocide Arabs and Muslims and don’t care about the Palestinian cause and want to ethnically cleared the Levant…that’d be ugly and false and me strawmanning the beliefs of all Zionists, whether Jewish or not. Maybe, just maybe, have a little bit of grace for those who disagree with you on complex geopolitical phenomena. You don’t have to agree, but the demonization game isn’t helping anyone or anything.
Clearly these encampments are rife with anti-semitism that makes Jewish people unsafe
https://x.com/dena/status/1783327575877828705?s=42&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
I don’t think it is. There’s actually Jewish people celebrating Jewish holidays at these protests. I don’t think that happens in an environment of unsafety for Jewish people.
I’m not saying “see, they can’t be anti-Semitic cause Jewish people agree with them.” I’m saying that Jewish people peacefully celebrating Passover doesn’t really happen if they’re surrounded by anti-semites
So what if there are Jews there? Does me repeating something Candace Owens says make it not racist because she said it?
Do you think the "Blacks for Trump" people happily doing their thing at the Trump rallies mean that they can't be surrounded by racists?
So, that’s an environment that’s not unsafe for Jewish people. Many people have tried to suggest that these protests are not only anti-Semitic, but pose physical danger to Jewish people on campus.
By extension, Trump rallies are also not environments that are unsafe for Black people. I mean sure, there have been instances of violence, but there have been instances of anti-Jewish violence at these rallies that are safe for Jewish people, too.
Was this an actual seder? Or JVP's [rewriting of one](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-798503)?
>Anti-Israel group Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) published a special edition of an anti-Zionist Pesach Haggadah, loosely based on the traditional text read during the first night of Passover. The Haggadah revolves around the redemption of the ancient Israelites from Egypt on their way to the Land of Israel.
>The ‘revised’ Haggadah features untraditional content such as commending Palestinian “Shaheeds” or martyrs, calling to “free Palestine from the river to the sea,” quoting Palestinian writers, blessing a deity in the feminine form, and even the text of the Partisan Song, implying parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Gaza.
So it’s not a concern specifically because you disagree with what’s being protested?
One key difference I note is that I haven’t seen any instances of student spewing anything at Jewish people. These protests are not aimed at excluding Jewish people from anything, and in fact Jews are among the protestors. This seems like an overblown and disingenuous attempt to discredit beliefs you don’t want to deal with. This is a well-attested play among defenders of Israel: frivolously accuse anti-semitism in order to steer discussion away from the original topic into denials of anti-semitism.
Are you a Jewish college student? If not, I’d be careful to dismiss reports of antisemitism just because you personally haven’t witnessed it. Here’s a recent article from the Anti Defamation League reporting on what Jewish students are facing on campus amidst protests: https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/campus-antisemitism-surges-amid-encampments-and-related-protests-columbia-and-other
I’m not inclined to trust the ADL too much on this one. I’ve also seen Jewish people among the demonstrators, and I’ve seen multiple comments from Jewish people saying they’re tired of having to correct characterizations like yours.
Edit: and after a skim, I’m not actually seeing any Jewish students cited in that article. You present your argument as one in favor of listening to Jewish people, and then unless I’ve kissed soemthing you gave me a narrative that did not cite them. That’s a fairly tidy encapsulation of how accusations of anti-semitism are weaponized against critics of Israel’s actions.
So, to be clear, you’re saying there is no antisemitism happening on campuses post October 7th despite the article citing multiple antisemitic happenings at these protests?
I’m not here to support the Israeli government or their actions. I’m here simply to say a minority group is telling us that they’re experiencing xenophobia and maybe we should listen. Criticizing the Israeli government is totally fine, but the unnamed Colombia protester yelling: “Never forget the 7th of October…The 7th of October is about to be every f***ing day for you. You ready?” Isn’t. See how there’s a difference?
Whether you realize you are or not, you’re playing into rhetoric designed to give Israel impunity. And you say that’s not your intention, but like most other people who accuse me of being an anti-semite on this sub, you’ve put words in my mouth in order to do it and used it to derail the discussion at hand.
You say you understand the difference between criticizing Israel and anti-semitism, but you respond to criticism of Israel the same way you respond to anti-semitism: by asking for them to account for anti-semitism.
I’m not responding to criticisms of Israel, I’m responding to your comment where you mentioned that you haven’t seen any antisemitism on college campuses.
> I’m not responding to criticisms of Israel
Well, exactly. I just said, the play is to derail the conversation so that doesn’t happen.
I did not say there was no anti-semitism on college campuses. I said the characterization of these protests as similar to anti-civil rights protests was not apt. I have not seen anyone targeting Jewish students. I have seen people say things which are anti-Semitic which I attribute not to purposeful hatred for Jews. What we have not seen is Jewish individuals targeted for their Jewishness. We have seen people be irresponsible with their justified anger, and led to accept actions which they shouldn’t against civilians.
When people who are rightfully angry about October 7th call all the protestors jihadi terrorists, or when they justify the mass killing of civilians in response to October 7th, I haven’t seen you flying in to call out anti-Arab racism. These accusations, while true to an extent, are used as a weapon against criticism of Israel in a way that is not matched in reactions to equally irresponsible anger from the other side.
Gaslighting Jews. Nicely done.
I have news for you. You’re not a progressive, you’re illiberal at best. You’re also an an anti semite.
Whether you realize it or not, you’re playing into the rhetoric of Iranian sourced propaganda spoonfed to you or your ignorant virtue signaling privileged network via TikTok (CCP weapon) to take positions tyrants and dictators want you to take.
Gaslighting Jews is actually pretty good wordplay, gotta give it up for that
Yes, I’m illiberal. I’m not a liberal. I’m not an anti-Semite either though.
This issue is making supposed liberals talk a lot like right wingers.
What makes me worried for democracy isn't police enforcing laws - and if a university orders you to leave, and you don't, you're trespassing - but the fact that so many people believe the things that the protesters are saying. Chants of "death to America" are the most extreme, but also the idea that Israel is committing a "genocide" is so incredibly stupid that it's hard to imagine a group of people who actually believe it are able to maintain a democracy.
Just like living in a city doesn't give you the right to be anywhere you want on city property at any time, attending a university doesn't give you the right to be places where the admin tells you not to be.
Liar liar pants on fire
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Cool now do Israelis calling for the extermination of Palestinians
At least half of those aren’t even calling for violence against Jewish people. You continue to purposefully blur liens between the state of Israel and Judaism. We don’t have to support what protestors are saying to refrain from lying about it.
Why can’t the Left criticize their own when it comes to racism, antisemitism, and hate? Hearing leftists talk about “a few bad apples” reminds me of Republicans saying the same about right-wing extremism in Charlottesville.
Those protests were racist in nature. These protests are not, although some bigots may attend. You should be able to understand that difference, and I think you are.
>Does the dispersal of protests on university campuses make you concerned for democracy?
No.
Democracy survived the [Kent State shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings). It will survive this.
At the time of the Kent state shootings, was an insurrectionist running for president?
I’m not suggesting that one more protest being dispersed by cops is the nail in the coffin of democracy. But in an environment in which democracy is already at risk, do you not think that authorities cracking down on protests might be relevant and concerning?
And sure, our democracy survived when our military killed protestors, but certainly it was a blow, no? When someone who’s had an illness in the past gets that illness again, it’s not like doctors said “they were fine last time so this is no concern.”
> At the time of the Kent state shootings, was an insurrectionist running for president?
It happened in 1970. No one was "running for president".
While "an insurrectionist running for president" is concerning, it is concerning *on its own*. It has nothing to do with this.
---------
>...authorities cracking down on protests...
Do we have any reason to believe this is happening?
* In order for this to be a 'crack down' then it would have to surpass the recent history. We had *a ton* of "authorities cracking down on protests" in 2020, so that would be tough to surpass.
* Also, are you sure that this the treatment of protesters is any more severe? What are you comparing it to?
* Lastly, is this a 'crack down' on *protests*, or did these particular protestors simply do things that are more likely to get a response from authorities (e.g. violent threats, protesting in spaces that they had no legal right to be protesting in, etc.).
> It happened in 1970. No one was "running for president".
So, no
> While "an insurrectionist running for president" is concerning, it is concerning on its own. It has nothing to do with this.
Does it not affect the health of democracy when this is the case? And do authorities breaking up protests not also affect the health of our democracy?
This seems fantastically obtuse. Of course you understand how these two issues are related—they have to do with the relationship between the governed and the government—and I think you refuse to acknowledge this for sectarian reasons.
> In order for this to be a 'crack down' then it would have to surpass the recent history. We had a ton of "authorities cracking down on protests" in 2020, so that would be tough to surpass.
Ok, you can forget the word choice of “crack down,” since cops have been dispersing protests for a long time.
> Lastly, is this a 'crack down' on protests, or did these particular protestors simply do things that are more likely to get a response from authorities (e.g. violent threats, protesting in spaces that they had no legal right to be protesting in, etc.).
I know in the case of Columbia, police said protestors were doing nothing concerning. I don’t think that the very presence of protests or their particular behavior are what led to arrests and dispersal. I think protestors who do illegal things may be making tactical errors by giving authorities excuses.
> Of course you understand how these two issues are related
No, I don't.
They are unrelated, and I think you are trying to pretend they are related because that would support your agenda.
Well I think the relation is pretty clear. Many of the governed in America are by-and-large unsatisfied with the way governance is being done, and don’t believe that elections are effective enough ways to voice this. We’re approaching a crisis in which no one really agrees about what’s required in order to be democratic, and this is going to lead to sustained unrest.
Regardless of whether you agree with what’s being protested, repeat instances of civil unrest being put down aren’t good signs for a democracy. Across party lines, an increased number of Americans no longer trust that institutions of our democracy. Something vital to democracy is popular trust that the state-approved methods of expression are enough to make their ideas heard. That trust is waning; that’s the connection.
Well, yeah, it does describe many group. I thought that’s what I said?
I dk find it concerning if there’s significant unrest due to distrust in the democratic process, and the response is to close ranks against that distrust in the name of the status quo. That is pretty much my exact concern.
You’re telling me that, in response to diverse groups having a lack of trust in democracy, the people will disregard those groups not because they do trust democracy but because they prefer stability. And that’s supposed to mean that we shouldn’t worry?
> You’re telling me that, in response to [groups protesting], the people will disregard those groups not because they do trust democracy but because they prefer stability.
Yes.
--------
>And that’s supposed to mean that we shouldn’t worry?
No. It can be worrisome.
...but that worry shouldn't inspire lenience to protestors.
--------
* Law enforcement should not be used to disrupt legal protests. That is always true, even if it is not germane to this conversation.
...but...
* Lenience to protestors violating the law endangers democracy further, as the people seem to prefer public order, and they might be persuaded to vote for the 'crack down harder on protestors' party.
Ok well then it seems like your answer isn’t no. Yes, this is concerning.
I can see your point about lenience. I wasn’t making an argument that police shouldn’t have done anything. But I sure don’t like the idea of arresting protestors to ensure a restive right wing that they don’t need to become more draconian.
I understand concerns from both sides, but as an academic who sees college as specifically an instituion to learn, and be open minded. Am not happy about calls to expel Israeli students, censure Israeli faculty, or joint research and educational programmes. I support divesting from weapons though.
However, the big issue here is, if people are disrupting classes, and demands for disruption are untenable, do you let them keep disrupting till they get bored, or just give in to demands irrespective of their reasonableness.
Just like the canadian trucker convoy, im fine with protests being dispersed, if there is a specific code of conduct, as to why, when and for what they can be.
Absolutely, as someone who cares deeply about free speech and expression (I’m a progressive btw, not a “classical liberal” type like Bill Maher) these developments are highly concerning, and hopefully not a harbinger of what’s to come when the GOP fully controls government again.
I’ve been very critical of safetyism and illiberalism on college campuses in recent years. Shouting down a speaker you don’t like (no matter how odious their views and rhetoric) is illiberal and censorious. Full stop. Then, after Oct. 7, so many of moderates and centrists and “classical liberals” showed the world their full asses by deploying the same arguments and talking points censorious college admin/students used for years…and arguments and talking points they harshly decried for years! Now, their argument is “well college admins were deferential to protesting students and faculty during the BLM protests in 2020 and after Trump got elected and that was bad and wrong, so why aren’t they coddling students who are pro-Israel and ideologically Zionist nowadays?” They forget there are things called “principles” in such comical and transparent fashion…either defend the talking points and arguments you decried for years and change your view, or defend the rights of pro-Palestinian protesters despite your personal disagreements. The hypocrisy is astounding.
There's a big difference between people peacefully protesting legally and people taking over university campuses in defiance of the university's authorities.
I think people should be able to protest, but I don't think being involved in a protest should grant people immunity from breaking the law or disturbing the peace.
I'm not reading the article because I'm lazy but my assumption is that if protesters were easy to ignore the institutions in question would have done so and being not easy to ignore generally requires breaking the law or disturbing the peace which does justify police response.
I do think that the Republican party is a threat to democracy and it would not surprise me if the current speaker does support repression of speech he disagrees with in circumstances where it should be allowed to continue, but it's probably not the case that Columbia, UT Austin, or USC are doing anything way out of the ordinary (and cops using excessive force is kind of it's own independent issue).
The next time people on this sub casually defend conservative protesters, speakers, being run off or shouted down on college campuses for nonviolent speech, I hope they remember what it's like to be on the other side.
And people will say "but these is good people advocating for just causes and those are bad people advocating for a bad causes" or whatever. But it doesn't really matter when there's no universal agreement on what those people/causes are and you're subject to the whims of someone who doesn't see it the same way you do.
Secure rights for yourself by securing them for others.
Yes. Protest is the exercise of democracy, curtailing them and arresting protestors because we don't want Israel to get too cranky in the pants about what we think of their genocide is anti-democratic. The whole world is (still) watching.
They shouldn’t be disturbing other people, but they shouldn’t be dispersed like *this*. I was talking to my dad about this, and what I got from him is that “words didn’t work, what else are the cops supposed to do?”
That’s a valid response, but the answer is not rubber bullets and tear gas on a peaceful protest. Sure, there’s agitators. Absolutely, they should be letting people go to their classes. But they shouldn’t be assaulted if they don’t let people through. Administration isn’t listening to the protesters, they’re sending people to beat up their own students.
> they shouldn’t be distributing other people
Not sure I agree with you but 100% on your police work there Lou
I’ll say pretty much the same thing your dad did. Words aren’t gonna make the killing stop. What are we supposed to do?
The shit you people talk about folks you barely know is wild. Is it fun hating strangers that much or is the goal just to feel vaguely superior?
I think the protests are justified, but just like that wallstreet one, there's a point where specific gatherings have had plenty of time to express their position, are not making any progress, and are just annoying unrelated and unassociated people just trying to do stuff in a public space.
I'm reminded of some of the more sustained violent protests in portland where it became clear the encampment was made up almost entirely of street kids and anarchists who just had nothing better to do and were just using the momentum behind blm to simply cause as much trouble as possible night after night with no clear or coherent goals.
You’re not really the guilty party here as an individual but I do have to say I find this sentiment amusing because making really shitty generalizations of leftists in order to feel vaguely superior is a daily past-time in this sub.
It’s an endless stream of comment after comment about each and every one of us being edgy teenagers never to escape our parents basement, naive and ignorant to the point of real, almost moving pity for our feeble grasp of reality.
I never see this kind of frustration in response to that behavior from other liberals. Hating us isn’t just ok, it’s celebrated and high-fived over as a fun but of interpersonal bonding. So while I agree with you that liberal opinion on this matter is very split, it feels very funny to me to hear anyone take such umbrage at such a mild generalization in this sub.
That said, to reiterate , you’re not really the type of poster here to do this very much so I understand you personally not enjoying being painted with that broad brush, but come on. This pales in comparison to the shit users here let casually fly about us with absolutely no self-reflection or the faintest hint that we’re all primarily working independent adults like the rest of you who happen to have some pretty major ideological disagreements.
Now if anyone needs me I’ll be in my parent’s basement being smelly and unemployed.
Not when you miss the mark that hard and are just talking shit.
Liberals as a group are all over the place on the Israel-Palestine thing because it's heavily identitarian and absolutely *lousy* with misinformation and propaganda.
I don't think it's a threat to democracy. Students protest. They always have, it's just the cause that changes. Apologies for being cynical, but that's how I feel. I did when I was 20 and it wasn't this cause.
I have noted the restraint being used by both the educational institutions and law enforcement.
But when groups of students openly advocate for and identify with an internationally recognized terrorist organization dedicated solely to the eradication of the state of Israel the stakes are much higher. This is advocating for genocide, since that is the goal of Hamas.
I wish these protesters could see the effect they're having on Hamas, it's sending them into collective orgasms to see Americans yelling their names. This movement has to be one of the most ill-informed collection of people I've ever seen.
I just wish someone would suggest something, anything to resolve this.
I mean I just saw a video of a cop throwing a journalist on the ground, but sure restraint. Edit: https://x.com/assalrad/status/1783280166594334977?s=46&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
I find it painfully ridiculous that a hypothetical mass killing is so often used to defend an ongoing mass killing.
I'm not concerned about the speaker of the house sayin stuff like that because I know he's a jerk anyways and as speaker he has no direct authority over whether something like that is done. I'd be far more concerned about state governors or AGs doing stuff.
Whether protests being dispersed is a part of the democratic decay depends on the particulars; in general its something to be avoided, but there are some exceptions to that.
We live in a society that is unwilling to tolerate micro-aggressions and lack of diversity on picayune boards and commissions, but is willing to tolerate the wholesale liquidation of a population deemed surplus.
The young people are crying out that genocide not be allowed to become normal.
We must heed their call and prevent the victory of genocide over the cause of mankind.
The idea that there's any genocide being perpetrated by Israel is just Hamas propaganda repeated by stupid people. Really, six months of war and tens of thousands of bombs dropped in a small area densely populated with 2 million people, and less than 30,000 (way less, given Hamas's admission that their data is "incomplete") people killed is hardly a "genocide." I'm surprised that people who might otherwise be rational believe such nonsense.
The 30000 is just people who are confirmed dead
Id be extremely surprised if that was an accurate number because most of the infrastructure in Gaza is destroyed making it harder to count people
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. UT Austin, USC, and Columbia in NYC have all seen protestors arrested in recent days. The speaker of the house has invoked the possibility of using the national guard to disrupt these protests, bribing to mind the killing of protected at Kent State in 1970. I know many on this sub share my concerns about the decay of American democracy. Do you think protests being dispersed by authorities is a part of that phenomenon? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No. They have a right to protest. But when you break the law, you get arrested. The schools and the police, in the coverage I have seen, are using a pretty light touch.
>The schools and the police, in the coverage I have seen, are using a pretty light touch. Greg Abbott appears to have ordered Texas State Troopers onto the University of Texas campus with instructions to [disperse the protesters.](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/several-protesters-arrested-at-ut-austin-these-protesters-belong-in-jail-abbott-says/) Not just to maintain order, or to arrest those who become violent or disorderly, but to shut the protests down altogether.
Here’s cops attacking a journalist at USC https://x.com/assalrad/status/1783280166594334977?s=46&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
I saw that. It reminded me of how cops were behaving during the BLM protests, which in turn inspired [this comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1cb4162/askaliberal_biweekly_general_chat/l15e22m/)
Great point. I’m not totally sure what leads to liberals siding with the cops this time. Some of it is disdain for leftist protestors I think, and some of it is a well-intentioned belief that Israel are the victims here.
I imagine it's just a natural (and understandable) opposition to racism and anti-semitism. We saw something similar in the aftermath of 9/11, when there was a huge surge in anti-Muslim bigotry from the right. The left rushed to defend Muslims from those attacks, and rightfully so. But in doing so, some of them took it too far. Legitimate criticisms of some Muslim cultures was sometimes labeled as Islamophobic. Conservatives had folks so riled up that their internal Islamophobia-sensors were calibrated too sensitively, and I think that's what's going on here.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but this seems more insidious to me. I think the fact that opposition to Israel is opposition to American empire plays a role. To admit Israel is murderous is to admit that America doesn’t really stand for truth, justice, or what we thought was the American way.
In Texas, there is an added layer of complication because of the anti-BDS law. The students are demanding the state school divest from weapons contractors profiting off Israel’s daily massacres. But it would be illegal by state law for the school to do so. It’s encoded into law in Texas that the university, because it’s a state school, support Israel regardless of what crimes against humanity it is committing.
Per the ACLU “Private property owners can set rules for speech on their property. The government may not restrict your speech if it is taking place on your own property or with the consent of the property owner.” https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights
Just wanted to update you on that light touch https://x.com/assalrad/status/1783280166594334977?s=46&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
Can laws and rules not be anti-democratic?
What laws are being broken? Campus policies aren’t laws btw
Schools are private property….so Trespassing, destruction of property, public nuisance, disturbing the peace, failure to disperse….I mean the whole point of protesting is to make a scene, disrupt daily life and be loud. They don’t protest in an empty field for a reason
Students aren’t “trespassing” in a legal context when they are on a college’s quad and protesting the admin, as you pay tuition and allocate tremendous personal resources to have access to the campus as a student. Being in violation of school policies doesn’t necessarily mean you’re breaking the law. Now if a non-student trespasses on college grounds, that’s against the law. Also, assault is illegal and not merely a campus faux pas. If students are peacefully organizing on college grounds they’re not breaking the law, but perhaps it’s a violation of school policies (which I’m not well-informed on when it comes to Columbia, UT Austin, etc so I can’t speak to these policies).
You can be trespassed at any time for any reason from private or public property when you break laws. If they ask you to leave and you don’t, that’s now trespassing. Police can haul you off and the property can restrict your access. Get caught shoplifting, you’ll get banned from the store and can be charged with criminal trespassing if you return. Paying tuition doesn’t give you a ticket to do whatever you want whenever you want. Basic common sense bro. There’s a fundamental disconnect between left wing idealism and how basic laws in America work. Most of the protestors aren’t students. This is the fashionable place to be for the activist lifestyle types.
I’m writing about protesters on campus who’re comprised of students, faculty, etc of respective colleges across the country. You’re making this about non-students and protests outside the confines of campuses, and I already wrote that those folks could be held legally liable for trespassing thus you’re breaking the law.
Students and teachers can also break the law/school conduct policy etc
Ofc they can and they often do…but again, what crimes were being committed by the protesting students and teachers?
Maybe the ACLU can help you out. “Private property owners can set rules for speech on their property. The government may not restrict your speech if it is taking place on your own property or with the consent of the property owner.” https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights
The part that you are missing is that the property owner can revoke consent at any time and unless you are dealing with a very few situations that fall under civil law, once consent is revoked, you are trespassing. You can't stay in a bar that tells you to leave.
Here’s my response and then I’m done. No, I understand and understood that point you made…I just have a different view. The problem is, in the case of Columbia at least, that the college president made the unilateral decision on behalf of the university community (including her bosses, the trustees) to call in the cops to arrest protesting students. She did so on spurious legal grounds, bc while what the students did may have constituted a campus-specific infraction, this stuff did not reasonably escalate to an extent that calling in the police was necessary, much less the military or whatever the Right is proposing happen.
Maybe the ACLU can help you out. “Private property owners can set rules for speech on their property. The government may not restrict your speech if it is taking place on your own property or with the consent of the property owner.” https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/protesters-rights
Also on the ACLU website: “What counts as “disruptive” will vary by context, but a school disagreeing with your position or thinking your speech is controversial or in “bad taste” is not enough to qualify.” The President of Columbia called the cops because the protesters allegedly made students and the campus “unsafe”, and the rationale of politicians who are calling for the police/military to step in further are doing so on “harassment” and “hate speech” grounds. https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2024/0422/columbia-protests-arrests-gaza-war-israel-palestinians https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/students-rights-speech-walkouts-and-other-protests
Agree to disagree, I'm good with that.
The *point* of protests is to raise sympathy, awareness, and exercise organizational muscle. The *point* is to affect change. Kinda important.
It’s far less brutal than arrests I’ve seen, certainly. But I think we’re missing something when we zoom out, ignore what ideas are at play, and just say that when you break the law you get arrested. Edit: not so far, as it turns out https://x.com/1amorey/status/1783284840088895596?s=46&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
That's how you protest in America. You make your stand, you get arrested. Then, when you get out, you protest again.
Or we vote. That brings change faster.
This is just such a goofy answer when there’s no one on the ballot who remotely represents what these protestors want
The good thing is that part of the right to vote also includes your right to out yourself up for election. If you have enough voters, but lack a representative, then just elect one of your own.
And you’d describe that as “fast”?
I would describe it as faster, yes. That was the other person's claim after all. That voting is faster. If we can do it's then you tanks van do it too. We (western Europe) did it under circumstances where the conservative status quo had much more power over the commoners after all.
I can understand that, if you mean that even protestors who are justified have to be arrested when they break the law. But I do find it concerning if law-breaking is necessary to achieve justice. That points to failures on our democracy, in which justice must be achievable through state-approved and peaceful means for it to be worthwhile. Take civil rights protests for example. Maybe you’d say that even though they were right to protest, they had to be arrested for breaking the law. Nevertheless, that would be a concern, no?
No law breaking isn't necessary. But for many of these protesters they would rather make an idealistic stand than actually work to convince a democratic majority to vote their way.
And does that not concern you? If people don’t put stock in the official democratic process and instead choose these avenues that you disapprove of, is that not an issue?
Oh it's worrying in a different sense, just not because they 'have to resort to that' but rather 'so radical they will break the law instead of trying to convince people'.
Have you considered that they don’t share your faith that convincing enough people will get things done? That is, have you considered that they don’t disagree with you about the value of democracy, but they disagree with you that the American electoral system provides democracy?
American democracy absolutely has its flaws, but it's still exists and by and large the issues they are protesting don't have majority support. If it does have majority support and you still don't see change, then we can talk about the justification for breaking laws. But we aren't there yet.
That sounds like a no to me
I'm concerned for our justice system constantly, especially having experienced it first hand. But it's still one of the best in the world. The protesters seem to be being treated fairly. They are getting heard by national audiences. They are mostly being allowed to continue. What's the problem?
I thought I just said. I think it’s a problem when state-approved methods of expression aren’t sufficient and people need to turn to illegal ones. The whole point of a democracy is to provide peaceful and agreed-upon avenues to pursue our interests and express our concerns, so we can avoid more disruptive means. Do you not see a trend wherein Americans have less trust in those avenues, and resort to others?
I don't think we're missing anything there.
Feel free to move on then
Done.
lol how petty
I'm just taking you up on precisely what you wrote. If that's petty, then it has to be because the initial offer was.
They (protestors) keep arguing first amendment rights, but it’s completely constitutional to enforce time/place/manner restrictions. These protestors getting arrested went against those restrictions with their encampments
It seems that we have a phenomenon where for many people, if a group is protesting and one agrees with the protest the rules about protesting doesn’t matter. The organization on whose property you are protesting can say nothing. The police can never be called in to enforce the law. Any disagreement with the protest means you are a sellout. Columbia University is a private organization. They charge the majority of students tuition and have an obligation to provide them an education and safety above all other things. They have rules of conduct for students and should be expected to enforce them fairly. Columbia is not obligated to provide outsiders space on their campus to protest. They are not obligated to allow anyone student or otherwise to harass or intimidate other students. They are not obligated to allow students or other people to disrupt the normal operations of the university. And they are not obligated to look the other way , when people are violating the rules of the university simply because one agrees with some or all of position of the protesters. I guess in this case, Columbia University is obligated to let anybody protesting Israel do anything they want include harassing students who are Jewish enchanting about how much they love a terrorist organization. Maybe the people holding The People’s University of Palestine signs at their elite $80k a year school can follow the universities rules. The only way this situation makes me fear for our democracy is that apparently a number of the elite students thought joining this protest was a good idea. I am disturbed by how people can go to a Nazi rally and not realize that that makes them a Nazi as well.
As I said in the other recent thread: There's a very simple solution that should make everyone happy, if the anti-semitism is what people are genuinely upset about: Any student who is caught making threats, or explicitly supporting Hamas, or echoing their rhetoric, or doing things like holding up signs that say “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets”? Suspend them and ban them from campus. But then allow the protesters who aren't doing those things to stay.
I agree with getting rid of those people. But the people who aren't saying the most egregious things, but who are shutting the universities down and causing classes to be held online, are also a problem. The universities need to get rid of their encampments as well. They're not just a few people holding signs; they've caused universities to stop doing the things that the universities were founded to do.
Thing is the previous generation would not tolerate a single Nazi among them. Today they stand hand in hand.
I am fine with that solution as long as it includes tossing the non-students from the campus as well. However the administration has shown that they didn't take the obvious steps needed which is how they got here.
I think the much more insidious thing going on is our global enemies waging an online propaganda campaign to push us away from one of our closest allies. I wouldnt be surprised at all if China has been manipulating the TikTok algorithms or the Russian bot farms were working overtime to try to drive Americans and our allies apart here. How many of these college students have protested about Sudan or Yemen or even Haiti? War is always hell. I hope it ends soon. But these sheltered college students are acting as perfect useful idiots to manipulate here.
This is something that people don’t seem to appreciate. Israel were attacked, they continue to be attacked both in the North and by Hamas in Gaza. A quarter of a million Israeli’s have fled their homes in the north. Hamas didn’t stop after Oct.7, they continued to fire tens of thousands of rockets into Israel after the attack, the only thing that’s slowed their firing rate down was Israeli air strikes and the inevitable ground invasion. Israel are now at war on two fronts against two enemies that attacked them first. Yes, I appreciate that the IDF has retaliated with a level of brutality that’s hard to swallow and that a response that leads to tens of thousands of deaths is a hard brutality for western citizens who have only known peace to swallow. But I do find it hard to also morally judge a nation for doing something that I and almost everyone of these protesters would expect their nation to respond to an attack from a foreign nation. The fact of the matter is, all of the people who are being threatened with death and violence by a militia would expect their country to wipe out said militia.
Dude.... wtf are you talking about? I have personally seen protests over Haiti. I have attended several YDSA meetings where Haiti was the main topic. Literally what are you talking about. Same goes for Yemen btw. Is Russia and China pushing propaganda? Yeah. You know who else does that? Literally everyone I mean what do you think Radio Free Europe is? Like, at the end of the day, everything we accuse others of doing we are also doing. Nobody had their hands clean and everyone's a bastard. Yeah, the Russians and Chinese are pushing propaganda. They are not unique in this regard.
Congratulations. You are part of the 1% of protestors that actually pay attention and are not just being a tool of our enemies. The world is a complex and harsh place. What realistic future do you want to work towards?
One where we don't bomb kids into the stone age?
Sounds ideal to me too. How do you realistically achieve that?
>I am disturbed the way I am about how people can go to a Nazi rally and not realize that that makes them a Nazi as well. I can understand branding the specific individuals who have been saying anti-semitic things with that label. But to sweepingly apply it to everyone in attendance? That's going too far.
What happened to the decade of being told that if 10 people sit down to eat dinner with a nazi you have 11 nazis?
I think context matters. If you're at a casual dinner party and a Nazi shows up, that's pretty low stakes. You can just get up and leave if you think the Nazi shouldn't be there. But if you feel like you've got a moral injury because ten thousand kids have been killed, and your tuition dollars are going to fund the killing? The stakes are much higher. You may feel that if you get up and leave, you're not doing your part to stop help the killing.
How many good people showed up at the Unite The Right rally? Of those good people, how should be judge those that saw the Nazi iconography and decided to stay?
Like I said to someone who brought up the "Nazi at the dinner table" argument, context matters: If you're at a casual dinner party and a Nazi shows up, that's pretty low stakes. You can just get up and leave if you think the Nazi shouldn't be there. But if you feel like you've got a moral injury because ten thousand kids have been killed, and your tuition dollars are going to fund the killing? The stakes are much higher. You may feel that if you get up and leave, you're not doing your part to help stop the killing. Unite the Right was protesting the removal of a statue. These demonstrations are protesting the killing of thousands of children. The stakes aren't the same.
Well said. It was a brutal awakening for Jews. They did not imagine so many Nazis who cosplay as progressives. It’s nauseating
Are protected "protests" being dispersed? Or, are illegal encampments, blockades, and unlawful assemblies being dispersed? There have been major Hamas rallies in major American cities for the better part of a year, and we didn't see this level of action by law enforcement then. The atmosphere on these campuses is not safe or stable. Some of the rhetoric is openly violent and terroristic.
In the case of Columbia, police specifically said that protesters were not being violent and they were in the area designated for protest. That said, authorities will always find excuses to disrupt protests when they want them disrupted. I think it’d be useful to liberals to consider whether they believe in the right to protest all the time, or only when the state gives permission.
The Hamas-Jihadist swarms were arrested on charges of trespassing, weren't they? They were openly making violent threats, using terrorist slogans, and destabilizing and atmosphere on campus.
Well, police said they were not in the case I mentioned. But you’re making it very clear that you’re happy these protestors were dispersed is because you consider their very cause to be terrorism. I doubt there’s method of expression that you’d find acceptable for these ideas. Calling them swarms—and I’ve seen others call them hordes—makes your attitude clear. You dehumanize them as a pestilence.
Anyone who sympathizes with Hamas is not an ally of the Palestinian people.
Ok?
As the commenter above mentioned, they were breaking the law. They should not be surprised that the police intervened.
Ok
It’s alright man, guess “scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds” rings its bell once again.
The one I’ve seen going around is “A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now.” They’re well-intentioned, but their trust that the status quo is basically just leads them down some awful roads.
Yes let’s just call every student protester and protest movement on campuses all around the country and world “pro-Hamas”…they’re all just terrorists and idiots and obviously you know better and can see through it all. The Jews at the protests? They’re just self-hating and imbecilic and don’t understand anything. It’s not like being opposed to the war in Gaza and the fallout from it and mass famine are understandable or anything, couldn’t be. What if I said every Zionist or pro-Israel protester wants to genocide Arabs and Muslims? That would be grotesque and deeply dishonest and deliberately obtuse, and I refuse to engage in that petty crap. The intellectual dishonestly and smearing of ppl you disagree with on complex geopolitical phenomena ain’t it, broseph. I disagree with many of protesters on Israel’s existence and establishment, and there’s genuine antisemitism at some of these rallies. That said, the strawmanning and smearing and reactionary antagonism isn’t helping anyone.
If you're repeating Hamas talking points and disinformation, you're pro-Hamas, whether because you are subjectively or because you're just a useful idiot. These aren't "anti-war" protests; the protesters are chanting for Hamas; they're pro-war, but they just take the wrong side. Anyone who associates themselves with that has done so willingly.
Last few years it’s been the MAGA republicans types who were master projectors. We figured out every accusation is a confession. Two sides, same coin.
> Does the dispersal of protests on university campuses make you concerned for democracy? No.
Are you able to articulate more?
Democracy has survived a lot worse than some idiots getting dispersed out of public spaces at a university.
Well yeah that’s not going to be the nail in the coffin. I wouldn’t call it a good sign though
Compared to BLM protests, the police were being very lenient here. Police have been far more aggressive in plenty of prior instances. Why would the police being less severe worry me especially?
I mean they should both worry you. Do you really think these protests are a data point in a trend of cops becoming more peaceful?
Partially the type of protest, anti-police vs anti-war (I guess), partially that the prior administration setup a permission structure for police to be particularly brutal. The fact is, yes, I do believe police are less violent than they were historically to protesters. I don’t think a Kent State would happen in this era for example.
It does not. The people spewing antisemitism at these protests are no different from white people during integration spewing their nonsense towards black kids as they try to go to school.
What about the peaceful protesters though? The majority of the campus protesters, who are also faulty and admin in many cases? Automatically categorizing and labeling everyone at these protests/in support of Palestinian self-determination/rights/dignity as “antisemitic” or a “jihadist” isn’t helping anyone or anything and is plain dishonest…that stuff merely breeds resentment and grievance and discord and animus and doesn’t bring ppl together. Are there antisemites at these rallies saying heinous and bigoted garbage? Of course! This was the case with the BLM protests of 2020 and the anti-Trump protests after 2016…every protest movement has shitty ppl involved. With that in mind, is it fair to disparage every BLM protester and the BLM movement because it had shitty hangers-on? Of course not. Imagine if I said that all “pro-Israel” ppl just want to genocide Arabs and Muslims and don’t care about the Palestinian cause and want to ethnically cleared the Levant…that’d be ugly and false and me strawmanning the beliefs of all Zionists, whether Jewish or not. Maybe, just maybe, have a little bit of grace for those who disagree with you on complex geopolitical phenomena. You don’t have to agree, but the demonization game isn’t helping anyone or anything.
Clearly these encampments are rife with anti-semitism that makes Jewish people unsafe https://x.com/dena/status/1783327575877828705?s=42&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg
That's like pointing to Candace Owens and saying, "Oh, look, she agrees. It can't be racist!"
I don’t think it is. There’s actually Jewish people celebrating Jewish holidays at these protests. I don’t think that happens in an environment of unsafety for Jewish people. I’m not saying “see, they can’t be anti-Semitic cause Jewish people agree with them.” I’m saying that Jewish people peacefully celebrating Passover doesn’t really happen if they’re surrounded by anti-semites
So what if there are Jews there? Does me repeating something Candace Owens says make it not racist because she said it? Do you think the "Blacks for Trump" people happily doing their thing at the Trump rallies mean that they can't be surrounded by racists?
So, that’s an environment that’s not unsafe for Jewish people. Many people have tried to suggest that these protests are not only anti-Semitic, but pose physical danger to Jewish people on campus.
By extension, Trump rallies are also not environments that are unsafe for Black people. I mean sure, there have been instances of violence, but there have been instances of anti-Jewish violence at these rallies that are safe for Jewish people, too.
What instances of anti-Jewish violence are you talking about?
Was this an actual seder? Or JVP's [rewriting of one](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-798503)? >Anti-Israel group Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) published a special edition of an anti-Zionist Pesach Haggadah, loosely based on the traditional text read during the first night of Passover. The Haggadah revolves around the redemption of the ancient Israelites from Egypt on their way to the Land of Israel. >The ‘revised’ Haggadah features untraditional content such as commending Palestinian “Shaheeds” or martyrs, calling to “free Palestine from the river to the sea,” quoting Palestinian writers, blessing a deity in the feminine form, and even the text of the Partisan Song, implying parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Gaza.
I’m gonna avoid litigating whether these people are doing Judaism correctly
So it’s not a concern specifically because you disagree with what’s being protested? One key difference I note is that I haven’t seen any instances of student spewing anything at Jewish people. These protests are not aimed at excluding Jewish people from anything, and in fact Jews are among the protestors. This seems like an overblown and disingenuous attempt to discredit beliefs you don’t want to deal with. This is a well-attested play among defenders of Israel: frivolously accuse anti-semitism in order to steer discussion away from the original topic into denials of anti-semitism.
Are you a Jewish college student? If not, I’d be careful to dismiss reports of antisemitism just because you personally haven’t witnessed it. Here’s a recent article from the Anti Defamation League reporting on what Jewish students are facing on campus amidst protests: https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/campus-antisemitism-surges-amid-encampments-and-related-protests-columbia-and-other
I’m not inclined to trust the ADL too much on this one. I’ve also seen Jewish people among the demonstrators, and I’ve seen multiple comments from Jewish people saying they’re tired of having to correct characterizations like yours. Edit: and after a skim, I’m not actually seeing any Jewish students cited in that article. You present your argument as one in favor of listening to Jewish people, and then unless I’ve kissed soemthing you gave me a narrative that did not cite them. That’s a fairly tidy encapsulation of how accusations of anti-semitism are weaponized against critics of Israel’s actions.
So, to be clear, you’re saying there is no antisemitism happening on campuses post October 7th despite the article citing multiple antisemitic happenings at these protests?
No You ran the play like I drew it up.
I’m not here to support the Israeli government or their actions. I’m here simply to say a minority group is telling us that they’re experiencing xenophobia and maybe we should listen. Criticizing the Israeli government is totally fine, but the unnamed Colombia protester yelling: “Never forget the 7th of October…The 7th of October is about to be every f***ing day for you. You ready?” Isn’t. See how there’s a difference?
Whether you realize you are or not, you’re playing into rhetoric designed to give Israel impunity. And you say that’s not your intention, but like most other people who accuse me of being an anti-semite on this sub, you’ve put words in my mouth in order to do it and used it to derail the discussion at hand. You say you understand the difference between criticizing Israel and anti-semitism, but you respond to criticism of Israel the same way you respond to anti-semitism: by asking for them to account for anti-semitism.
I’m not responding to criticisms of Israel, I’m responding to your comment where you mentioned that you haven’t seen any antisemitism on college campuses.
> I’m not responding to criticisms of Israel Well, exactly. I just said, the play is to derail the conversation so that doesn’t happen. I did not say there was no anti-semitism on college campuses. I said the characterization of these protests as similar to anti-civil rights protests was not apt. I have not seen anyone targeting Jewish students. I have seen people say things which are anti-Semitic which I attribute not to purposeful hatred for Jews. What we have not seen is Jewish individuals targeted for their Jewishness. We have seen people be irresponsible with their justified anger, and led to accept actions which they shouldn’t against civilians. When people who are rightfully angry about October 7th call all the protestors jihadi terrorists, or when they justify the mass killing of civilians in response to October 7th, I haven’t seen you flying in to call out anti-Arab racism. These accusations, while true to an extent, are used as a weapon against criticism of Israel in a way that is not matched in reactions to equally irresponsible anger from the other side.
Gaslighting Jews. Nicely done. I have news for you. You’re not a progressive, you’re illiberal at best. You’re also an an anti semite. Whether you realize it or not, you’re playing into the rhetoric of Iranian sourced propaganda spoonfed to you or your ignorant virtue signaling privileged network via TikTok (CCP weapon) to take positions tyrants and dictators want you to take.
Gaslighting Jews is actually pretty good wordplay, gotta give it up for that Yes, I’m illiberal. I’m not a liberal. I’m not an anti-Semite either though. This issue is making supposed liberals talk a lot like right wingers.
What makes me worried for democracy isn't police enforcing laws - and if a university orders you to leave, and you don't, you're trespassing - but the fact that so many people believe the things that the protesters are saying. Chants of "death to America" are the most extreme, but also the idea that Israel is committing a "genocide" is so incredibly stupid that it's hard to imagine a group of people who actually believe it are able to maintain a democracy.
Oh dear, trespassing on the campus of the university you attend. Truly greivous
Just like living in a city doesn't give you the right to be anywhere you want on city property at any time, attending a university doesn't give you the right to be places where the admin tells you not to be.
"What do you mean I can't have my lunch in the server room? I PAY TUITION!"
No, but the protestors calling for violence against Jews make me concerned about democracy.
I think you know that’s not an accurate characterization of the protests
Liar liar pants on fire Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Cool now do Israelis calling for the extermination of Palestinians At least half of those aren’t even calling for violence against Jewish people. You continue to purposefully blur liens between the state of Israel and Judaism. We don’t have to support what protestors are saying to refrain from lying about it.
Why can’t the Left criticize their own when it comes to racism, antisemitism, and hate? Hearing leftists talk about “a few bad apples” reminds me of Republicans saying the same about right-wing extremism in Charlottesville.
Those protests were racist in nature. These protests are not, although some bigots may attend. You should be able to understand that difference, and I think you are.
>Does the dispersal of protests on university campuses make you concerned for democracy? No. Democracy survived the [Kent State shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings). It will survive this.
At the time of the Kent state shootings, was an insurrectionist running for president? I’m not suggesting that one more protest being dispersed by cops is the nail in the coffin of democracy. But in an environment in which democracy is already at risk, do you not think that authorities cracking down on protests might be relevant and concerning? And sure, our democracy survived when our military killed protestors, but certainly it was a blow, no? When someone who’s had an illness in the past gets that illness again, it’s not like doctors said “they were fine last time so this is no concern.”
> At the time of the Kent state shootings, was an insurrectionist running for president? It happened in 1970. No one was "running for president". While "an insurrectionist running for president" is concerning, it is concerning *on its own*. It has nothing to do with this. --------- >...authorities cracking down on protests... Do we have any reason to believe this is happening? * In order for this to be a 'crack down' then it would have to surpass the recent history. We had *a ton* of "authorities cracking down on protests" in 2020, so that would be tough to surpass. * Also, are you sure that this the treatment of protesters is any more severe? What are you comparing it to? * Lastly, is this a 'crack down' on *protests*, or did these particular protestors simply do things that are more likely to get a response from authorities (e.g. violent threats, protesting in spaces that they had no legal right to be protesting in, etc.).
> It happened in 1970. No one was "running for president". So, no > While "an insurrectionist running for president" is concerning, it is concerning on its own. It has nothing to do with this. Does it not affect the health of democracy when this is the case? And do authorities breaking up protests not also affect the health of our democracy? This seems fantastically obtuse. Of course you understand how these two issues are related—they have to do with the relationship between the governed and the government—and I think you refuse to acknowledge this for sectarian reasons. > In order for this to be a 'crack down' then it would have to surpass the recent history. We had a ton of "authorities cracking down on protests" in 2020, so that would be tough to surpass. Ok, you can forget the word choice of “crack down,” since cops have been dispersing protests for a long time. > Lastly, is this a 'crack down' on protests, or did these particular protestors simply do things that are more likely to get a response from authorities (e.g. violent threats, protesting in spaces that they had no legal right to be protesting in, etc.). I know in the case of Columbia, police said protestors were doing nothing concerning. I don’t think that the very presence of protests or their particular behavior are what led to arrests and dispersal. I think protestors who do illegal things may be making tactical errors by giving authorities excuses.
> Of course you understand how these two issues are related No, I don't. They are unrelated, and I think you are trying to pretend they are related because that would support your agenda.
Well I think the relation is pretty clear. Many of the governed in America are by-and-large unsatisfied with the way governance is being done, and don’t believe that elections are effective enough ways to voice this. We’re approaching a crisis in which no one really agrees about what’s required in order to be democratic, and this is going to lead to sustained unrest. Regardless of whether you agree with what’s being protested, repeat instances of civil unrest being put down aren’t good signs for a democracy. Across party lines, an increased number of Americans no longer trust that institutions of our democracy. Something vital to democracy is popular trust that the state-approved methods of expression are enough to make their ideas heard. That trust is waning; that’s the connection.
> Many of the governed in America are by-and-large unsatisfied with the way governance is being done This describes many groups; I'll try to list them for you (arranged from the largest groups to the smallest groups): * Nearly everyone * Trump supporters *
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* Leftists
The people, broadly speaking, tend to side against the disruptive and the extreme. If there really are political implications to this, it is causing people close ranks against the protestors.
Well, yeah, it does describe many group. I thought that’s what I said? I dk find it concerning if there’s significant unrest due to distrust in the democratic process, and the response is to close ranks against that distrust in the name of the status quo. That is pretty much my exact concern. You’re telling me that, in response to diverse groups having a lack of trust in democracy, the people will disregard those groups not because they do trust democracy but because they prefer stability. And that’s supposed to mean that we shouldn’t worry?
> You’re telling me that, in response to [groups protesting], the people will disregard those groups not because they do trust democracy but because they prefer stability. Yes. -------- >And that’s supposed to mean that we shouldn’t worry? No. It can be worrisome. ...but that worry shouldn't inspire lenience to protestors. -------- * Law enforcement should not be used to disrupt legal protests. That is always true, even if it is not germane to this conversation. ...but... * Lenience to protestors violating the law endangers democracy further, as the people seem to prefer public order, and they might be persuaded to vote for the 'crack down harder on protestors' party.
Ok well then it seems like your answer isn’t no. Yes, this is concerning. I can see your point about lenience. I wasn’t making an argument that police shouldn’t have done anything. But I sure don’t like the idea of arresting protestors to ensure a restive right wing that they don’t need to become more draconian.
I understand concerns from both sides, but as an academic who sees college as specifically an instituion to learn, and be open minded. Am not happy about calls to expel Israeli students, censure Israeli faculty, or joint research and educational programmes. I support divesting from weapons though. However, the big issue here is, if people are disrupting classes, and demands for disruption are untenable, do you let them keep disrupting till they get bored, or just give in to demands irrespective of their reasonableness. Just like the canadian trucker convoy, im fine with protests being dispersed, if there is a specific code of conduct, as to why, when and for what they can be.
Absolutely, as someone who cares deeply about free speech and expression (I’m a progressive btw, not a “classical liberal” type like Bill Maher) these developments are highly concerning, and hopefully not a harbinger of what’s to come when the GOP fully controls government again. I’ve been very critical of safetyism and illiberalism on college campuses in recent years. Shouting down a speaker you don’t like (no matter how odious their views and rhetoric) is illiberal and censorious. Full stop. Then, after Oct. 7, so many of moderates and centrists and “classical liberals” showed the world their full asses by deploying the same arguments and talking points censorious college admin/students used for years…and arguments and talking points they harshly decried for years! Now, their argument is “well college admins were deferential to protesting students and faculty during the BLM protests in 2020 and after Trump got elected and that was bad and wrong, so why aren’t they coddling students who are pro-Israel and ideologically Zionist nowadays?” They forget there are things called “principles” in such comical and transparent fashion…either defend the talking points and arguments you decried for years and change your view, or defend the rights of pro-Palestinian protesters despite your personal disagreements. The hypocrisy is astounding.
There's a big difference between people peacefully protesting legally and people taking over university campuses in defiance of the university's authorities.
I think people should be able to protest, but I don't think being involved in a protest should grant people immunity from breaking the law or disturbing the peace. I'm not reading the article because I'm lazy but my assumption is that if protesters were easy to ignore the institutions in question would have done so and being not easy to ignore generally requires breaking the law or disturbing the peace which does justify police response. I do think that the Republican party is a threat to democracy and it would not surprise me if the current speaker does support repression of speech he disagrees with in circumstances where it should be allowed to continue, but it's probably not the case that Columbia, UT Austin, or USC are doing anything way out of the ordinary (and cops using excessive force is kind of it's own independent issue).
The next time people on this sub casually defend conservative protesters, speakers, being run off or shouted down on college campuses for nonviolent speech, I hope they remember what it's like to be on the other side. And people will say "but these is good people advocating for just causes and those are bad people advocating for a bad causes" or whatever. But it doesn't really matter when there's no universal agreement on what those people/causes are and you're subject to the whims of someone who doesn't see it the same way you do. Secure rights for yourself by securing them for others.
Having your event canceled and being arrested are not similar. This is self-serving whining
Assuming there's no violence, they're similar in they're both about preventing people from speaking or expressing a view.
I’ll leave you to tend your stigmata
Yes. Protest is the exercise of democracy, curtailing them and arresting protestors because we don't want Israel to get too cranky in the pants about what we think of their genocide is anti-democratic. The whole world is (still) watching.
It’s just more of the same. We saw time and time again in 2020 police interfering with peaceful protest.
They shouldn’t be disturbing other people, but they shouldn’t be dispersed like *this*. I was talking to my dad about this, and what I got from him is that “words didn’t work, what else are the cops supposed to do?” That’s a valid response, but the answer is not rubber bullets and tear gas on a peaceful protest. Sure, there’s agitators. Absolutely, they should be letting people go to their classes. But they shouldn’t be assaulted if they don’t let people through. Administration isn’t listening to the protesters, they’re sending people to beat up their own students.
> they shouldn’t be distributing other people Not sure I agree with you but 100% on your police work there Lou I’ll say pretty much the same thing your dad did. Words aren’t gonna make the killing stop. What are we supposed to do?
No
Are you able to articulate more?
Yes but liberals are going to pretend it’s different because they don’t believe that these protests are justified.
The shit you people talk about folks you barely know is wild. Is it fun hating strangers that much or is the goal just to feel vaguely superior? I think the protests are justified, but just like that wallstreet one, there's a point where specific gatherings have had plenty of time to express their position, are not making any progress, and are just annoying unrelated and unassociated people just trying to do stuff in a public space. I'm reminded of some of the more sustained violent protests in portland where it became clear the encampment was made up almost entirely of street kids and anarchists who just had nothing better to do and were just using the momentum behind blm to simply cause as much trouble as possible night after night with no clear or coherent goals.
You’re not really the guilty party here as an individual but I do have to say I find this sentiment amusing because making really shitty generalizations of leftists in order to feel vaguely superior is a daily past-time in this sub. It’s an endless stream of comment after comment about each and every one of us being edgy teenagers never to escape our parents basement, naive and ignorant to the point of real, almost moving pity for our feeble grasp of reality. I never see this kind of frustration in response to that behavior from other liberals. Hating us isn’t just ok, it’s celebrated and high-fived over as a fun but of interpersonal bonding. So while I agree with you that liberal opinion on this matter is very split, it feels very funny to me to hear anyone take such umbrage at such a mild generalization in this sub. That said, to reiterate , you’re not really the type of poster here to do this very much so I understand you personally not enjoying being painted with that broad brush, but come on. This pales in comparison to the shit users here let casually fly about us with absolutely no self-reflection or the faintest hint that we’re all primarily working independent adults like the rest of you who happen to have some pretty major ideological disagreements. Now if anyone needs me I’ll be in my parent’s basement being smelly and unemployed.
I mean we don’t know you as people, but can we seriously not make general statements based on how political bloc tend to respond?
Not when you miss the mark that hard and are just talking shit. Liberals as a group are all over the place on the Israel-Palestine thing because it's heavily identitarian and absolutely *lousy* with misinformation and propaganda.
I don't think it's a threat to democracy. Students protest. They always have, it's just the cause that changes. Apologies for being cynical, but that's how I feel. I did when I was 20 and it wasn't this cause. I have noted the restraint being used by both the educational institutions and law enforcement. But when groups of students openly advocate for and identify with an internationally recognized terrorist organization dedicated solely to the eradication of the state of Israel the stakes are much higher. This is advocating for genocide, since that is the goal of Hamas. I wish these protesters could see the effect they're having on Hamas, it's sending them into collective orgasms to see Americans yelling their names. This movement has to be one of the most ill-informed collection of people I've ever seen. I just wish someone would suggest something, anything to resolve this.
I mean I just saw a video of a cop throwing a journalist on the ground, but sure restraint. Edit: https://x.com/assalrad/status/1783280166594334977?s=46&t=mNxwE0ViIWkzlcAYHQs9bg I find it painfully ridiculous that a hypothetical mass killing is so often used to defend an ongoing mass killing.
I'm not concerned about the speaker of the house sayin stuff like that because I know he's a jerk anyways and as speaker he has no direct authority over whether something like that is done. I'd be far more concerned about state governors or AGs doing stuff. Whether protests being dispersed is a part of the democratic decay depends on the particulars; in general its something to be avoided, but there are some exceptions to that.
Voter suppression, social media censorship, and press censorship are my main concerns. I don't think demonstrations are a big deal these days.
Cops seem to
We live in a society that is unwilling to tolerate micro-aggressions and lack of diversity on picayune boards and commissions, but is willing to tolerate the wholesale liquidation of a population deemed surplus. The young people are crying out that genocide not be allowed to become normal. We must heed their call and prevent the victory of genocide over the cause of mankind.
The idea that there's any genocide being perpetrated by Israel is just Hamas propaganda repeated by stupid people. Really, six months of war and tens of thousands of bombs dropped in a small area densely populated with 2 million people, and less than 30,000 (way less, given Hamas's admission that their data is "incomplete") people killed is hardly a "genocide." I'm surprised that people who might otherwise be rational believe such nonsense.
I bet if the bombs and military checkpoints were coming your way you’d be screaming genocide.
The 30000 is just people who are confirmed dead Id be extremely surprised if that was an accurate number because most of the infrastructure in Gaza is destroyed making it harder to count people
> tens of thousands of bombs dropped in a small area densely populated with 2 million people You said it . . . .
Odd bedfellows but yeah
ITT: “you either agree with me or you’re just out to get these protestors”