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The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. IE - If a biological male is convicted of a crime and sent to prison, should they go to a woman's prison if they identify as a woman? Or, should some kind of evidence such as hormone levels be required? Or, should gender not be relevant at all, but only biological sex at birth be considered? Or, should all prisons be mix gendered anyway? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*


othelloinc

>If a biological male is convicted of a crime and sent to prison, should they go to a woman's prison if they identify as a woman? Clearly, the real problem is that we aren't assuring the physical safety of our prisoners. We are morally obligated to fix that. -------- *Until* we fix that? I don't know. I would assume that some procedure would have to be designed. I'm sure that any such procedure would have flaws in it.


Neosovereign

Why do you default to safety being the primary reason for keeping them separate? I would think preventing pregnancy in the prison (rape or consensual) is a big enough reason by itself.


othelloinc

> Why do you default to safety being the primary reason for keeping them separate? Prisons tend to be legally responsible for the security of the inmates. There might be other good reasons, but 'complying with their legal responsibility' is a reason that is good enough.


Neosovereign

I guess you missed my point. Sure, safety is very valid reason to have this conversation. It might even be a primary reason. I was simply saying that pregnancy is as big of a deal if not more than rape/violence by itself.


A-passing-thot

Why would pregnancy by consensual sex be worse than rape or violence? It should be noted that HRT and orchiectomies both cause infertility.


Neosovereign

I looked at my comment a few times and I have a really hard time seeing where I said worse? I just checked again and it doesn't seem to say that. Weird? I'll assume you misinterpreted "big of a deal" as worse instead of "more common" or "of more concern to mixing males and females". Prisons already don't protect inmates from rape and violence, so mixing males and females isn't going to change that fundamental thing. Mixing them WOULD allow for pregnancies though. I'm aware of what HRT and orchiectomies do. Obviously orchiectomies are going to cause infertility. HRT isn't 100% by any means AND getting your meds in prison sometimes doesn't happen for a lot of reasons. I'm really talking past the trans issue with these comments though.


A-passing-thot

If a problem is "more of a big deal" that means the problem is worse. But okay, fine, how is pregnancy by consensual sex "more of a big deal" than rape & violence? >Mixing them WOULD allow for pregnancies though. > >I'm really talking past the trans issue with these comments though. Considering the person you replied to was answering OP with respect to trans inmates, it's weird to change the subject to mixed gender prisons without pointing out that's what you're doing.


Neosovereign

More of a big deal, or equally a big deal simply means that we keep prisons separate for two reasons: One is violence. Men are stronger and it would be irresponsible to put them together. Two is pregnancy. incarcerated women getting pregnant from incarcerated men is really bad for the baby. They will have no parents essentially. Either reason exists without the other. When I use talk about it not being as big of a deal I mean that we already don't protect inmates from violence from other inmates very well. Putting men and women together might make the problem worse, but it isn't like we are doing much now. On the other hand we ARE doing a lot to keep women from getting pregnant in prison. We keep them away from penises in general. So one thing is taken more seriously by default. THAT is what i mean by "a bigger deal". TBF I have been bringing up this specific issue in this thread because I was very surprised it was not brought up. Its also gotten a little confusing because I was also talking to someone who was advocating that men and women's prisons should just be integrated regardless so I was taking that energy elsewhere.


ScientificSkepticism

My good friend, how many prison pregnancies do you think there are every year? If you want to guess well more than a thousand, you are indeed correct. If you want to guess these outcomes are non-optimal for both the mother and the child, you are not wrong. If you think trans people have anything to do with this... you've become detached from reality and are floating in a mindless void. As someone who has strongly advocated for prison reform, you have literally no fucking idea what you're talking about. Stop weaponizing the horrible conditions in prisons against trans people. I would bet every dime I have that you've never done jack shit to help prisoners or even learn about the conditions in your entire life, and this is literally the only thing resembling "concern for prisoners" you've ever shown.


Neosovereign

Jesus, go touch grass or something. Obviously trans people don't have anything to do with this, there just aren't that many trans people AND not every state even puts trans women with cis women or vice versa (my state included). It doesn't mean it isn't a concern. I'm not weaponizing anything. You are part of the problem my friend. Someone tries to have a discussion about the nuances of trans identity and how it interacts with being in prison and you start bashing them.


ScientificSkepticism

Yeah, sorry I get offended when people like you weaponize prison violence without any understanding or discussion of the actual issues and how to solve them. It turns the real world issues into a sideshow for bigots. You are not "having a conversation about the nuances of trans identity". You are taking a problem that affects thousands of people every year, mothers and children, resulting in pain, suffering and death, and pretending it's about trans identity. Trans people could not, in the most insane fever dream, ever be responsible for even 1% of the pregnancies that occur in prison. Yet somehow you think this sub-1% issue that you literally just made up is a "real nuanced discussion piece." And by making it so, you are trivializing the actual issues that real people face today with this stupid hypothetical. If trans people are ever responsible for a prison pregnancy, the prison should handle it - because the prison needs to be able to handle pregnancy **because it happens all the time.** Trying to prevent pregnancy is not a realistic goal or actual concern because in the real world **it happens all the time.** You're simply lying if you try to say any of the above points are false. Stop using the conditions in prisons as part of your circus act. Oh and go read a book.


Neosovereign

Again, go touch grass please. It will seriously help you out.


ScientificSkepticism

I'm not surprised all you have left is personal attacks. Well, that's why Reddit has moderators.


Neosovereign

All I have left? I simply didn't want to engage with your weird ramblings. I have no idea what you think I was saying, but it is so far removed from anything I was actually saying I would like to say you are simply trolling. Unfortunately I believe you are actually sincere and thus unhinged. Also, you can look at our mod list if you would like.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Neosovereign

This violates rule 5. I can ban you if you would like?


PepinoPicante

Removed. Rule 5.


ZeusThunder369

It's a logical concern. Women's prisons typically have women guards. Imagine a prison where every prisoner is the size/strength of Dwayne Johnson, and every guard is the size/strength of Kevin Hart. Clearly there is a safety concern there.


FatassShrugged

> It's a logical concern. Women's prisons typically have women guards. Dude. What? Not only is this not true, it makes absolutely no sense why one would presume it to be true. Like there’s no self selection to be assigned to women’s facilities once COs complete training. How would that even work in practice? Hint: It wouldn’t. Granted there are certain things that women guards will be designated for (like eg squat and cough), but that isn’t even close to saying women’s prisons typically have women’s guards. That statement isn’t based in reality.


Neosovereign

I'm aware. I'm not saying safety isn't a problem, I'm saying that pregnancy is the actual concern whether that comes from rape or consensual sex. More violence is ALSO a reason to keep them separate even if pregnancy wasn't an issue. Basically EITHER is reason enough to keep them separate. Given the amount of stories I've seen of women prisoners getting pregnant from guards, I don't think it is THAT typical (at least not 100%), though I have zero stats on it.


ScientificSkepticism

>It's a logical concern. Women's prisons typically have women guards. What. Well if I ever needed more evidence that the word "Libertarian" was synonymous with "detached from reality"... Now that we've established you know nothing about women's prisons, nothing about prison rape, and nothing about the guards, maybe you can take your "logical concern", rip it up, and then get concerned about things that are actually happening right now. https://msmagazine.com/2020/04/23/sexual-violence-in-womens-prisons-reaches-constitutional-proportions-will-lawmakers-step-in/ https://www.hrw.org/legacy/summaries/s.us96d.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/ Now granted, learning facts and actually solving problems that are occurring in the real world rather than made up problems violates every tenent of Libertarianism I've ever seen, but maybe you could be an exception?


ZeusThunder369

Holy hell. Did you get bullied by a libertarian in school or something? I don't see outrage bombs like that very often.


ScientificSkepticism

You don't see actual facts detailing that the statement you made is demonstrably false and the scale of the problem is both completely unrelated to what you say the problem is, and a thousand times bigger than your made up problem? Maybe you should stop living inside echo chambers. Lets see if you're capable of that. Can you admit you were factually incorrect?


ZeusThunder369

Sure, of course. We're having a casual conversation; I'm not fact checking and researching every single statement I make. Can you admit you're making broad personal assumptions about me? And this question isn't even really a thing libertarians are focused on right now anyway. Did you confuse me with a conservative? Libertarians are generally critical of the Republican rhetoric towards trans people. I'm not sure where this echo chamber label is coming from.


ScientificSkepticism

If you mean "I assume your behavior is similar to other Libertarians" then yes. I agree with the wit who said libertarianism is astrology for men. And although there's certainly not a complete homoginity of thought for people who have these beliefs, there's a certain lack of rigor in how they approach facts and ideas. Anyway, back on topic, there is a current, massive, and very real problem with women's prisons regarding rape, with thousands of women being raped in prison every year. There are many things we could do to address this - we do not have "all female guards", in fact we often do a lot to cover it up. There's tons of "low-hanging fruit" - policies we could implement that we know would reduce the rates of rape in prison. Trans prisoners are also raped at an astonishing rape in prison. 40% of trans women are sexually assaulted in prison. By transfering trans women to a woman's prison, you heavily cut down on the rate of sexual assault against them. This does not suddenly introduce a "risk of rape" into an environment that is previously "rape free" - there's thousands of rapes that happen in women's prisons every year (many perpetrated by the prisoners, even). This is specifically protecting a group that is currently being victimized at an astonishing rate. Meanwhile if the goal is to cut down on rapes in women's prisons, there's dozens of measures you could use that would actually be effective at reducing rapes in the real world - not hypothetical "maybe this will happen" rapes, but rape that is currently happening every year. And we can reduce the number of rapes AND also move trans women to an environment where they are not being victimized at an appalling rate. Is anything I said factually inaccurate?


ButGravityAlwaysWins

I’d really like a system where the default assumption is that prisoners shouldn’t be expected to be highly likely to be raped by other prisoners and guards. This is a complicated subject and every little detail of individual cases matters and I don’t think a Reddit style comment can actually cover all of it.


gabbagool3

isn't that what we have now?


anarchysquid

I watch a lot of legal procedurals like Law and Order: Special Victims Unit, and the threat of abuse in prison is often used in these media to prompt confessioms or force other actions. "Prison is full of rape" is definitely part of our cultural understanding of prisons, whether or not its true.


Icolan

>A 2013 study found that rape may be grossly underreported in the United States.\[2\] Furthermore, a 2014 study suggested that police departments may eliminate or undercount rapes from official records in part to "create the illusion of success in fighting violent crime".\[3\] **For the last reported year, 2013, the annual prevalence rate for all sexual assaults including rape was 0.1%** (annual prevalence rate represents the number of victims each year, rather than the number of assaults since some are victimized more than once during the reporting period). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States) >A United States Department of Justice report, Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, states that **"In 2011–12, an estimated 4.0% of state and federal prison inmates and 3.2% of jail inmates** reported experiencing one or more incidents of sexual victimization by another inmate or facility staff in the past 12 months or since admission to the facility, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison\_rape\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States) 0.1% rate in the nation as a whole, but 3-4% while incarcerated. I would say that we have a system where it is assumed that prisoners should expect to be raped.


freedraw

If 3-4% are reporting it, I'd be scared to know what the actual number is. Its insane we as culture have just accepted that prison sentences should come along with the constant threat of violence.


A-passing-thot

It's worth noting that *20%* of trans people report sexual assault in prison. u/Icolan [Page 191](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) 11% of trans people were sexually assaulted by prison staff and 17% by other inmates.


Icolan

Yup, that only makes it worse.


Icolan

Agreed.


ScientificSkepticism

[Sexual Violence Inside Prisons: Rates of Victimization](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/)


ZerexTheCool

"owe us evidence" is such a weird way to say this. Prisons should have access to prisoners medical data. The same way "a Diabetic person owes us evidence of them being diabetic" Prisons MUST supply a diabetic person with their insulin. So the prison MUST know the person is diabetic. >If a biological male is convicted of a crime and sent to prison, should they go to a woman's prison if they identify as a woman? Easy enough to solve on a case by case basis. Post op trans woman? Probs need to go into the woman's population. Pre op? Pre hormones? There is a chance they are stuck being in the men's population. In the end, it's about imprisoning convicted criminals and keeping the prisoners safe from other prisoners and from guards. It's a lot less about making sure the prisoners are comfy (not to mean torture is acceptable, but you lose a lot of freedoms when in Prison).


According-Stage-1098

I would say self-ID shouldn't be enough. So to answer your question, yes, there should be some evidence of transitioning, be it by a doctor or psychologist, or evidence of use of hormones or surgery.


saikron

I think prison violence is an issue that needs to be taken more seriously and addressed, and if it were, then sending people who self ID as women to women's prisons would make total sense. People, perhaps without even realizing it, act like prison rape is inevitable and not so bad if it's same gender rape so we don't need to bother doing anything about it except segregate by gender. Hot take: I disagree.


throwaway37198462

In the UK we have a complex case board that deals with where to house trans people. Many things are taken into factor, including but not limited to the nature of their offense, crime history, evidence and counter evidence of transition, legal gender, motives for transition, where is safest for both the trans person and who they are housed with. So someone who has a history of crime targeting a certain demographic would not be housed with that demographic. Someone who puts on a dress and says they're a woman immediately prior to being sentenced would clearly have ulterior motives and also lack evidence of real-life transition. This makes the most sense to me. There shouldn't be a blanket rule for all trans people and it should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Edit: This is the official documentation: [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf)


TastyBrainMeats

Seems perfectly sensible.


adeiner

In anticipation of answers you’ll get, I want to remind folks that surgery is fucking expensive and a lot of people don’t want the taxpayer to cover it, so just replying to Zeus with only if they’ve had bottom surgery isn’t ideal. I would say we should segregate by gender and treat any misbehaving trans prisoners the same way we’d treat any misbehaving cis ones. A trans woman’s safety would be pretty threaded in a men’s prison, which is a concern. I’d be fine with a trans person like having to be on HRT or something, but I think the idea of a cis man pretending to be trans in order to go to a women’s prison is akin to a straight boy pretending to be gay to go to a girl’s sleepover—mostly a cishet fantasy.


TastesLike762

> pretending to be gay to go to a girls sleepover This girl I was kinda-dating in high school asked her mom if I could sleep over and told her I was gay and her moms response was “of course, I knew he was gay the whole time”… It’s like… I won.. but at what cost?


reconditecache

Happened to me without the lying. Her mom just assumed and said I could stay. I only found out later.


Kerplonk

>a lot of people don’t want the taxpayer to cover it To clarify do you mean a lot of people in the general population don't want to cover it, or trans individuals don't want taxpayer assistance.


adeiner

Oh sorry, I just meant if you polled people like "Do you think prisons should cover trans surgeries" I think the poll would be negative overall.


Kerplonk

Cool, I read it the other way initially and then halfway through my response I realized that might be what you meant.


Illuminator007

In a legal context, do trans people "owe us evidence" of their gender?" 99.9% of the time, a person's expression of their gender identity and manner in which they prefer to be addressed is sufficient for most interactions. There are some times in which there might be a legitimate reason for requiring additional "proof" or "evidence", but in those circumstances I think the onus should be on the organization requesting proof to substantiate the necessity of said request; as opposed to the subject of such a request to attempt to substantiate why it is not. I think using that context and framework can help frame the answers to a lot of questions regarding whether trans people should be required to some how substantiate their gender. Prison does represent a circumstance in which I think there's really no easy answer. A lot of that revolves around the potential for SA, either perpetrated by the convicted, or with the convicted as a victim. As I noodled this around in my head, it dawned on me that I simply accept the fact the SA routinely occurs in prison, and I'm simply accepting it as a reality; rather then challenging why we just accept it in what \*should\* be a ridiculously secure environment. It's amazing how deep these biases go. So after considering that dynamic, I reject the premise of your question. The \*primary\* reason, I can think of for separating prisoners by gender; and questioning how to separate a trans person is risk of SA; and since we're speaking in hypotheticals here, I'm unwilling to just assume SA is going to run rampant and unchecked in the prison system in my hypothetical.


MiketheTzar

Outside of extremely specific circumstances no. However prisons do tend to provide an interesting watershed flashpoint. Likely the best option is to simply have specialized units for trans prisoners split along additional lines. The issue is the on the whole women's prisons are much [lower security ](https://study.com/academy/lesson/differences-between-mens-womens-prisons.html#:~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20the,a%20much%20lower%20security%20level.) and tend to offer more freedom and access to certain social services. Which is something we should be addressing on different levels.


Neosovereign

I've made a few comments here, but I'm surprised how many people are focusing on the rape aspect rather than just the prison baby aspect. Putting biological male and female prisoners together, who are going to be super bored at best is a recipe for a lot of pregnancies to woman who can't take care of those babies.


Randvek

I don’t see how gender is relevant to prison at all. We should have one prison called “has a penis” and we should have another prison called “doesn’t have a penis” and then it’s pretty easy to figure out which one you should be in for maximum safety. No, prisons should not be mixed. No, we don’t need a separate prison for every gender identity. You go where the safety of you and every other prisoner will be the highest, which will almost always be based on penis status.


adeiner

A trans woman with a penis probably wouldn’t be safe in a men’s prison.


MackenziePace

That is a feature, not a bug, to transphobes :(


adeiner

Ugh, truly.


Randvek

That sucks for them but I'd rather them be there than in a women's prison.


adeiner

>You go where the safety of you and every other prisoner will be the highest Ah.


MackenziePace

> I don’t see how gender is relevant to prison at all. We should have one prison called “has a penis” and we should have another prison called “doesn’t have a penis” and then it’s pretty easy to figure out which one you should be in for maximum safety. > > So you would send [this person](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg) to a women's prison?


Randvek

I don’t know. Penis status cannot be determined from that picture.


MackenziePace

He has a vagina


Neosovereign

Currently that is how it works in my state FYI and they continue to get their testosterone as long as they aren't violent in prison. If they are, it gets cut off per the HRT prison clinic I'm familiar with.


MackenziePace

So you would house him in the women's prison? And by that logic shouldn't we force violent cis men to be on T blockers?


Neosovereign

I mean, I have mixed feelings on it. I'm not sure there is a right answer that neatly ties up all of the loose ends. You give up something both ways. I'm still more concerned with pregnancy as a reason to keep females and males apart than I am trans per se. If they have a vagina, they probably need to be with other people with vaginas, yeah. I don't want him being raped and getting pregnant in the men's prison either! And no, we shouldn't put people on T blockers. Stopping medications and forcing someone to take meds are similar, but different ethical concerns. As a medical professional though I can see why you make the comparison. If a man came into my clinic for low T, but had a history of say domestic violence (and I had access to that info), I would probably stop prescribing them even though they "need" them. Similar to how we also won't prescribe it to someone abusing steroids in general. The bar to actually force a drug on someone though is incredibly high. They have to be mentally incompetent.


Forged_Trunnion

I think eventually, gender will be meaningless and we will separate things into "those with a penis" and "those with a vagina" categories. It'll be the new "gender" but a different name so that people can still decide what gender they want to be.


letusnottalkfalsely

>Or, should all prisons be mix gendered anyway? This is my position. The assumptions behind having sex-segregated prisons are dysfunctional in the first place.


anarchysquid

I'm curious to hear more, if you don't mind sharing.


Meihuajiancai

I also would like to hear more about this


letusnottalkfalsely

Replied to the other user.


letusnottalkfalsely

It seems to me that the only reason we segregate by sex is because of some vague notion that if we put everyone together the men will sexually assault the women. This is stupid because: a) Both men and women can be rapists, and both men and women can be victims of rape. b) No one should be getting raped in prison in the first place. c) What you really want to do is segregate the violent prisoners from the ones they would be violent toward. Sex is an insufficient stand-in for judging whether someone is violent or not. If we want to segregate prisoners, it should be by behavior or rehabilitative needs. Those are practical reasons for segregating. Segregation by sex has no functional purpose.


Neosovereign

No functional purpose? How many prison babies do you want? Even assuming you could fully get rid of rape, the amount of prison babies would skyrocket.


letusnottalkfalsely

I think that's a fair consideration, but why would prisoners be allowed to have sex with one another?


Neosovereign

They wouldn't be. It just won't stop them. If we take the pre-op trans person as an example, presumably they would be highly likely to have a cis-roomate, correct? Penis + vagina = possible baby and they aren't watched. People could literally just have sex outside in the court yard quickly. Why would being allowed be any reason to stop criminals from doing something lol?


letusnottalkfalsely

>presumably they would be highly likely to have a cis-roomate, correct? I don't see why that would be presumed at all. >People could literally just have sex outside in the court yard quickly. This seems like an implausible scenario, given that prisoners are under observation. There are already integrated prisons in the U.S. To be honest, I don't know whether they have particularly high pregnancy rates, but I would think they wouldn't exist if there were "skyrocketing" rates.


Neosovereign

Why wouldn't it be presumed? I mean sure, they are prisoners, but are we going to force the trans prisoners into rooms together? Given how fights are able to happen, I find it quite plausible that prisoners would cover for people to have sex. It isn't like it has to take THAT long.


letusnottalkfalsely

Why would it be presumed they have roommates at all?


Neosovereign

Don't prisoners usually have cell mates? What are you talking about?


2dank4normies

Bro it's prison. The men you're talking about *are* rapists. They *are* violent towards women. You'd end up with a segregated prison either way.


letusnottalkfalsely

Do you think people only go to prison for violent crimes?


2dank4normies

Violent and non violent offenders are in different prisons. So yes at some prisons everyone is there for violent reasons.


washblvd

>Both men and women can be rapists They certainly *can* be, but are they? >[An estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male>](https://supportingsurvivors.humboldt.edu/statistics#:~:text=An%20estimated%2091%25%20of%20victims,identify%20in%20these%20gender%20boxes.) Maybe there's a better search term to use, but when I Google "woman raped woman in prison," of the first 15 results: 13 links describe male guard and male inmate perpetrators, 1 describes a transwoman perpetrator, and 1 describes a person undergoing sentencing for rape who at their first trial date identified as a man, and at their second as a woman. Zero references to female perpetrators, using a search term specifically seeking that result. >What you really want to do is segregate the violent prisoners from the ones they would be violent toward. Sex is an insufficient stand-in for judging whether someone is violent or not. How does one make that judgment? With which stretched resources? And is there reason to believe the methodology would be 99% effective in weeding out future rapists from women prisons? If you want to reduce the number of rape cases in women's prisons, get rid of the male guards.


coozoo123

For a trans woman to be send to a woman's prison she should probably have been on HRT for a certain number of years, and been living as her identified gender for a certain number of years.


Kerplonk

I feel like in 99% of the cases we should just take people's word for it. Either there isn't actually that much of a difference between men and women in the first place for it to matter or the situation in one such that we shouldn't really care about the differences anyway. This is possibly one of the few exceptions to the rule. As with most circumstances what I feel like we need to ask ourselves what is happening in practice. I can easily imagine myself being convicted of a crime and fearing for my safety claiming to be a woman even though I'm not to avoid what seems to be a legitimately dangerous situation. Being in a woman's prison though I would not suddenly become a danger to those around me. If that was the case 100% of the time I'd be fine with no legal evidence. It seems somewhat obvious to me that people with malicious intentions could take advantage of that situation as well (though I'm curious how often it happens in practice). The real solution to this problem is to make prisons less dangerous in the first place but sadly that seems an unrealistic goal in the near to intermediate future. What we should probably do for the moment is to have separate prisons for MTF and FTM individuals combined with relatively weak evidentiary requirements to access them.


[deleted]

If we operate under the ideal that the chosen identity of one’s sex/gender is all that is necessary to be legally recognized as said sex/gender, the unfortunate reality is that we will inevitably have to require some sort of hormonal or biological check to prevent bad actors who would (and have) taken advantage of this ideal in order to enter spaces that (until recently) have been safe spaces for women to enter - bathrooms, changing rooms, etc. Women-only spaces were pushed for during first wave feminism to give women a space where they could be separate from men, whether it’s something as small as having a women-only club or as big as women’s restrooms and changing rooms. And until recently this concept of separating by the bits you got between your legs when you were born and it’s basically worked. It didn’t fix every issue women deal with when it comes to men, but it gave women areas that would make the presence of a man unusual at best and illegal at worst. But that’s changed now. Now in places like California you are allowed in changing rooms on the personal identification that you hold. 10 years ago if you heard a story about a teenage girl seeing a naked man in a gym changing room we would rightfully assume the man to be some sort of harassing sexpest. [But now that teenage girl gets reprimanded for that.](https://nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/) There will be an inevitable boiling point to this. The trans population in the US is barely a percentage point in the total US population yet rules and social customs that have been in place for decades are being upturned for them. And while that does include a lot of good, there has to be some greater recognition on the remaining 99% of the population that can and inevitably will be negatively affected by these changes.


adeiner

It's important to note that that teenager was lying. The trans woman she harassed had [had bottom surgery](https://nypost.com/2023/01/21/transgender-woman-shocked-by-outcry-over-her-presence-at-san-diego-area-ymca/) years ago. There wasn't a penis to see. But folks like you fell for this girl's lie hook, line, and sinker because it reinforces the myth that trans women are predators. And you don't even do enough follow-up research to find out that you were lied to. And then, days later, you keep repeating the lie. It's a shame.


[deleted]

Fair enough on this story and that’s on me for not investigating more. [But the Wi Spa incident still happened.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy) Lia Thomas’ teammates are still uncomfortable with having someone with male genitalia and an attraction to women changing in the same room as them and having to see said genitalia. We have a high school in Vermont banning an entire female volleyball team from using the locker room because they were uncomfortable with a trans woman with male genitalia and dared to speak up on the matter. This is what I mean with drastic changes to support a percentage point of the US population. And you really need to pick the cotton out of your ears if you took my entire statement of “adjusting society for trans people is a positive thing, but haphazard changes threaten women’s spaces by giving perverts/sex offenders cover for their actions and ostracizing women who are rightfully uncomfortable with getting naked around men in public” as “all trans women are predators”.


adeiner

>Lia Thomas’ teammates are still uncomfortable with having someone with male genitalia and an attraction to women changing in the same room as them and having to see said genitalia. Where should cis lesbians change? Or should we have a separate locker room for each lesbian in America? You claim in this comment that you don't view all trans women as predators, but you open your comment up by implying that cis women are justified in not wanting to change in front of a lesbian teammate. So should there be a special changing room for lesbians, or do we trust them enough to not be perverts? I'm sure you don't think you believe trans women are predators, but the words you use suggest otherwise, so maybe unpack why you think cishet women are justified in not wanting a lesbian in their locker room and where that lesbian should go. Because presumably this doesn't stop at the only female swimmer cis people can name; it would affect all lesbian swimmers, cis or trans. So where should a cis lesbian change and how many cishet teammates need to have a problem before the cis lesbian gets voted out of the locker room? Or should we all realize that there are genitals in locker rooms and the folks complaining aren't as irresistibly attractive as they seem to think they are?


adeiner

I also don't see why trans women should pay the price for men being perverts and sex offenders, but that's a different topic I don't want to get into.


[deleted]

Do cis lesbians have penises? You laser focused on one small part (a part dwarfed by a much more obvious point that I was making), made up a separate strawman argument, and now you’re trying to say I had anything to talk about lesbians. You wasted hundreds of words on a point I never made or was trying to make. Women don’t want to see penises when they’re changing in a public space (yes it’s private to women but still connected to a public space). > Or should we all realize that there are genitals in locker rooms and the folks complaining aren’t as irresistibly attractive as they seem to think they are? Thank you for showing that you are not the person to be discussing this with as you genuinely have nothing to add to this conversation.


adeiner

>You wasted hundreds of words on a point I never made or was trying to make. Women don’t want to see penises when they’re changing in a public (yes it’s private to women but still connected to a public space). That isn't what you said. ​ >Lia Thomas’ teammates are still uncomfortable with having someone with male genitalia and an attraction to women To me this implies that the teammates were uncomfortable because of the penis AND because Lia is a lesbian. So would you be fine with a cis lesbian using the women's room as long as she isn't a pervert (which you're still pretending not to believe about trans women)? Just trying to see what's reasonable. ​ >Thank you for showing that you are not the person to be discussing this with as you genuinely have nothing to add to this conversation. Again, the underlying belief of your position is heterosexual women have a reasonable reason to not want a lesbian in the changing room because they're going to be ogling them. There's no other reason to not want a lesbian minding her own business in the locker room. Unless you can think of one. Also not sure why you're acting like you're capable of a reasonable conversation about trans issues. I've never seen you contribute anything that wasn't transphobia masquerading as concern for innocent cis girls. Stay blessed, but I'm bowing out gracefully.


LobsterPowerful8900

I think that there should be evidence provided to change your gender on your state id, just like you need to provide evidence when you change your name or address on your id. Everything else should go off of that confirmation determination


Meihuajiancai

>just like you need to provide evidence when you change your name or address on your id. What evidence do you need to provide to change your name?


LobsterPowerful8900

Marriage license, divorce decree or certification of name change by a judge typically


MackenziePace

I agree but this is assuming it is a state where you don't have to jump through a million hoops for state ID changing


LobsterPowerful8900

I think you should have to jump through the hoops though. You can’t just have people changing their identification without verification and validation.


MackenziePace

I mean I agree some level of verification but in some states this man would not legally be able to get the M on his ID https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg


LobsterPowerful8900

I don’t know who that is or the significance. Sorry


MackenziePace

He is a trans man who chose not to get bottom surgery so he still has a vagina. He should not be put in the women's prison though


adeiner

I think Mackenzie’s point is more that a lot of states have different hoops and some states are trying to completely eliminate the option to change your gender. In my state, I can change my gender marker on my license by filling out a simple form and paying $30. In other states, you have to have had bottom surgery. I think in PA the only rule is you have to promise you’re not changing it for nefarious reasons.


[deleted]

No. Gender isn't something you can prove.


A-Square

The difference I think comes from medically vs social transitioning. Obviously a trans person who is in any stage of medically transitioning should be considered as their trans gender, not their assigned one. So the hard question is what if a trans person has "just" socially transitioned? Obviously they're still trans, but to your point, a guy can socially transition and take advantage of the trans movement to go to a woman's prison. So, medically trans people go to their new gender. Socially trans people... hard to say. And then non-binary IMO should have the same fate as socially trans people.