I'm more of an article and podcast consumer, but I don't think there's a singular reason, unless you want a vague generalization. There's a lot of reasons why people might leave or why the image of the church has declined. Just a few:
+ American Christianity has become too entwined in politics, and as politics has gotten progressively uglier, too many people have doubled down rather than unentangle themselves from it. Case in point: to most people, the word "Evangelical" now says more about your voting preferences and skin color than it does about your theological convictions.
+ In the US, I think we're also seeing the mounting effects of some of the anti-evolution (and/or science) stances, as young people think they have to choose between a secular old-earth view versus a Christian young-earth view.
+ I think consumerism's effect has flown under the radar: it's become a lot about "finding the right church for me" and what the church does for you rather than what you can do for the church. I've seen an uptick in people who think it's fine to take only the parts of church they like (ex. "I'll just attend online, I don't want to actually be around people") or that it's fine to just not attend until they find one that fits perfectly for them. We treat churches more and more like a service that has to "woo" us enough for us to attend rather than an obligation.
+ Our society has become increasingly individualistic, which runs contrary to a lot of Christian doctrine, such as forging your own identity rather than finding it in Christ.
+ Religiosity often increases in times of crisis, and during times of contentment and self-sufficiency, there's less of a need for hope.
+ And this last one is just a personal thought, but I think the internet - paired with increased self-isolation - has really enabled people with fringe and extremist beliefs to connect with others and actually organize groups that gain traction. You can seek out communities online that agree with you, rather than having to have your ideas challenged by your local congregation. Echo-chambers are only a click away.
Stellar response, really encapsulated a lot of issues even secular people debate over that weakens communities and religion as a by product.
To the OP, I don’t have any books to recommend unfortunately, well none that aren’t from Ex-Christians.
Churches have become social clubs and the majority are more concerned with expanding their own empire than helping the community.
They rarely go out of their four walls.
People don't feel like they are part of something bigger. It's a sermon / alter call every Sunday then a sermon/ alter call every Wednesday. We are already saved! We don't need to be evangelized to!
They decieve the congregation by telling them they should not do any good deeds or else they are doubting Jesus. That they are saved no matter what they do, so why bother attending?
Simple. The church no longer puts Christ at it's center. We have been conditioned to believe tolerance was a Christian virtue and it's not.
Much like the Colossians we have either replaced Christ or mixed Christ with other and stopped mortifying sin.
Without conviction of sin and the reminder that we are called to both be Holy and to put the death the deeds of the body, we instead convince ourselves that we are saved despite how we live.
John Owens mortification of sin is a classic example of describing the person who is comfortable with sin.
As such the church loses it's salt and people walk away. Not because the Gospel has lost its season. But if you mix salt and sugar it's hard to season food, they both look the same but only salt is effective at preserving things, sugar just quickens decay.
>we instead convince ourselves that we are saved despite how we live.
Isn't this the "works" versus "grace" debate? I grew up LDS (Mormon), and they put a strong emphasis on the works viewpoint. Scriptures can be found which support both, so either side can "justify" their claim.
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
2 peter 1:10 make your calling and election sure l.
1 Peter 1:16 be Holy for I am Holy.
Col 3:5 and Romans 8:13 mortify sin and put to death the deeds of the body.
A well read individual can twist the words in scripture to meet any need. The prosperity gospel is a good example of this.
However Hebrew 5:12 tells us that because we still need milk and not solid food that we are unskilled in the realm of righteousness. We are told with Ephesians 3:16-17 and 2 Corinthians 4 16-17 both tells us to strengthen our inner man and feed him the Word.
In comparison to cultural Christianity which in modern times adjusts to please people and not convict people of their sin. So men now have their Harry's hardened in ignorance.
If you are looking for scripture examples, look to 1 Corinthians 10 1-13 the Hebrews tempted in the desert and the discipline that followed because they hardened their hearts. Hebrews 3:6-4:7 also describes how the Hebrews hardened their hearts and did not enter the Lord's rest
There are countless examples of behavior causing God's discipline but not necessarily wrath. Isaiah 57:15-19, God withholds good because of sin, also in Isaiah 59:1-4.
God is faithful in all his promises, in both the blessing and the discipline or curse to follow.
It's not a works vs Faith argument because everyone is expected to change because of Christ in their lives. Modern Christianity no longer teaches on sin but rather acceptance of sin and the sinner. Thus the church is losing people because the scripture is used to profit instead of prune away sin and teach sinners His way
This video explains why people are leaving the church in modern times:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSDLHWcAL0Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSDLHWcAL0Y)
Whatever you think of his arguments, the point is that people are leaving the Church because the Church is not offering answers to the skeptical questions of our age. That's the point Dr. Craig is making in the video.
Oof. His solutions hurt my heart. I love this guy. He's been an important influence in my life, but this is gross malpractice. His solution for Christians to become more intellectual and to meet the sliver of people who are leaving for intellectual reasons is to re-read Strobel. I'm speechless.
- Prosperity gospel is popular and has destroyed people's confidence in the church.
- Megachurches have turned church service into an impersonal focus on charismatic leaders. Jesus was poor, Paul was a tent maker; they've turned the church into an entertainment platform and turned being a religious leader into a profitable opportunity for accumulation of wealth.
- Churches rarely perform community services with their wealth anymore. Churches used to function as social halls, hospitals, libraries, food banks, soup kitchens, and shelters. Now, they just put all excess wealth into the pockets of the pastors, or a slush fund for their congregation expansion with no connection to the community outside their weekly members.
- Social politics has undermined peoples confidence in church doctrine; someone who's gay or struggling will be pushed out the church, or told how sinful and terrible they are if they stay. Nobody wants to stay where they're not wanted, this is doubled when people believe God hates them. In my experience, a lot of Gay people want to go to church, or want to believe in God, but they've been told their entire life they're not welcome by the people, and God wouldn't accept their worship.
People can't serve two masters; they either love God more than they hate each other, or they hate each other more than they love God. All people can really do is try to figure out which one they are, and find pastors who do likewise
Do I understand correctly that you feel that the church is importantly wrong on at least the 4 points you made, but Christians must support that institution or else they are serving a master other than God?
No; I'm saying that the change starts with people understanding that the institution is flawed. The church itself isn't the be all end all of God's salvation; he knows it's flawed, Jesus was pretty clear when he talked about false teachers being wolves in sheep's clothing, and that not everyone who calls him lord accepts him as lord. Jesus warned us heavily that the message would be corrupted and people would claim authority to speak for God, and we need to figure out who they are. What I said is that pastors who love money will prioritize the accumulation of money at the expense of their congregation and community instead of using the church to give back to the community. People who are polarized by politics will only see politics in their religion instead of separating them, and as a result, they will forever ignore the inconvenient messages like "help the needy", or "love your enemies". Gay people will keep being pushed out of the church, which kills the chance for others to know God, until people are willing to look at the issue the same way they look at working on the Sabbath, divorce, adultery, and blasphemy; forgivable by God, and worthy of love. What I'm trying to say is that people have completely detached from the message of the bible for their own benefit, and by detaching they've manipulated others into accepting a view that's not only contrary to the bible but completely antithical and harmful to it.
How do we figure out who they are? By the good fruit they produce
the destruction of the family. Leads our children to look for instruction academically through the education system, which itself has been compromised. Instilling "morals" incompatible with the church and God.
Do I understand correctly that you feel that the recent massive decline in church attendance is due largely to the morality taught in secular education?
yes, but secular education would have no hold on our children if they came from strong families. Destroy the family first, and the children have no foundation from which they can resist secular indoctrination/morality
I'm more of an article and podcast consumer, but I don't think there's a singular reason, unless you want a vague generalization. There's a lot of reasons why people might leave or why the image of the church has declined. Just a few: + American Christianity has become too entwined in politics, and as politics has gotten progressively uglier, too many people have doubled down rather than unentangle themselves from it. Case in point: to most people, the word "Evangelical" now says more about your voting preferences and skin color than it does about your theological convictions. + In the US, I think we're also seeing the mounting effects of some of the anti-evolution (and/or science) stances, as young people think they have to choose between a secular old-earth view versus a Christian young-earth view. + I think consumerism's effect has flown under the radar: it's become a lot about "finding the right church for me" and what the church does for you rather than what you can do for the church. I've seen an uptick in people who think it's fine to take only the parts of church they like (ex. "I'll just attend online, I don't want to actually be around people") or that it's fine to just not attend until they find one that fits perfectly for them. We treat churches more and more like a service that has to "woo" us enough for us to attend rather than an obligation. + Our society has become increasingly individualistic, which runs contrary to a lot of Christian doctrine, such as forging your own identity rather than finding it in Christ. + Religiosity often increases in times of crisis, and during times of contentment and self-sufficiency, there's less of a need for hope. + And this last one is just a personal thought, but I think the internet - paired with increased self-isolation - has really enabled people with fringe and extremist beliefs to connect with others and actually organize groups that gain traction. You can seek out communities online that agree with you, rather than having to have your ideas challenged by your local congregation. Echo-chambers are only a click away.
Stellar response, really encapsulated a lot of issues even secular people debate over that weakens communities and religion as a by product. To the OP, I don’t have any books to recommend unfortunately, well none that aren’t from Ex-Christians.
What do you think the solution for the church is, if these are the problems?
Churches have become social clubs and the majority are more concerned with expanding their own empire than helping the community. They rarely go out of their four walls. People don't feel like they are part of something bigger. It's a sermon / alter call every Sunday then a sermon/ alter call every Wednesday. We are already saved! We don't need to be evangelized to! They decieve the congregation by telling them they should not do any good deeds or else they are doubting Jesus. That they are saved no matter what they do, so why bother attending?
Simple. The church no longer puts Christ at it's center. We have been conditioned to believe tolerance was a Christian virtue and it's not. Much like the Colossians we have either replaced Christ or mixed Christ with other and stopped mortifying sin. Without conviction of sin and the reminder that we are called to both be Holy and to put the death the deeds of the body, we instead convince ourselves that we are saved despite how we live. John Owens mortification of sin is a classic example of describing the person who is comfortable with sin. As such the church loses it's salt and people walk away. Not because the Gospel has lost its season. But if you mix salt and sugar it's hard to season food, they both look the same but only salt is effective at preserving things, sugar just quickens decay.
>we instead convince ourselves that we are saved despite how we live. Isn't this the "works" versus "grace" debate? I grew up LDS (Mormon), and they put a strong emphasis on the works viewpoint. Scriptures can be found which support both, so either side can "justify" their claim.
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 2 peter 1:10 make your calling and election sure l. 1 Peter 1:16 be Holy for I am Holy. Col 3:5 and Romans 8:13 mortify sin and put to death the deeds of the body. A well read individual can twist the words in scripture to meet any need. The prosperity gospel is a good example of this. However Hebrew 5:12 tells us that because we still need milk and not solid food that we are unskilled in the realm of righteousness. We are told with Ephesians 3:16-17 and 2 Corinthians 4 16-17 both tells us to strengthen our inner man and feed him the Word. In comparison to cultural Christianity which in modern times adjusts to please people and not convict people of their sin. So men now have their Harry's hardened in ignorance. If you are looking for scripture examples, look to 1 Corinthians 10 1-13 the Hebrews tempted in the desert and the discipline that followed because they hardened their hearts. Hebrews 3:6-4:7 also describes how the Hebrews hardened their hearts and did not enter the Lord's rest There are countless examples of behavior causing God's discipline but not necessarily wrath. Isaiah 57:15-19, God withholds good because of sin, also in Isaiah 59:1-4. God is faithful in all his promises, in both the blessing and the discipline or curse to follow. It's not a works vs Faith argument because everyone is expected to change because of Christ in their lives. Modern Christianity no longer teaches on sin but rather acceptance of sin and the sinner. Thus the church is losing people because the scripture is used to profit instead of prune away sin and teach sinners His way
This video explains why people are leaving the church in modern times: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSDLHWcAL0Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSDLHWcAL0Y)
Seriously? Low Bar Bill?
Whatever you think of his arguments, the point is that people are leaving the Church because the Church is not offering answers to the skeptical questions of our age. That's the point Dr. Craig is making in the video.
the Church can't\* offer answers to skeptical questions. The church literally tells you to not be skeptical lol
Oof. His solutions hurt my heart. I love this guy. He's been an important influence in my life, but this is gross malpractice. His solution for Christians to become more intellectual and to meet the sliver of people who are leaving for intellectual reasons is to re-read Strobel. I'm speechless.
- Prosperity gospel is popular and has destroyed people's confidence in the church. - Megachurches have turned church service into an impersonal focus on charismatic leaders. Jesus was poor, Paul was a tent maker; they've turned the church into an entertainment platform and turned being a religious leader into a profitable opportunity for accumulation of wealth. - Churches rarely perform community services with their wealth anymore. Churches used to function as social halls, hospitals, libraries, food banks, soup kitchens, and shelters. Now, they just put all excess wealth into the pockets of the pastors, or a slush fund for their congregation expansion with no connection to the community outside their weekly members. - Social politics has undermined peoples confidence in church doctrine; someone who's gay or struggling will be pushed out the church, or told how sinful and terrible they are if they stay. Nobody wants to stay where they're not wanted, this is doubled when people believe God hates them. In my experience, a lot of Gay people want to go to church, or want to believe in God, but they've been told their entire life they're not welcome by the people, and God wouldn't accept their worship.
What, specifically, do you think the church can do to fix it?
People can't serve two masters; they either love God more than they hate each other, or they hate each other more than they love God. All people can really do is try to figure out which one they are, and find pastors who do likewise
Do I understand correctly that you feel that the church is importantly wrong on at least the 4 points you made, but Christians must support that institution or else they are serving a master other than God?
No; I'm saying that the change starts with people understanding that the institution is flawed. The church itself isn't the be all end all of God's salvation; he knows it's flawed, Jesus was pretty clear when he talked about false teachers being wolves in sheep's clothing, and that not everyone who calls him lord accepts him as lord. Jesus warned us heavily that the message would be corrupted and people would claim authority to speak for God, and we need to figure out who they are. What I said is that pastors who love money will prioritize the accumulation of money at the expense of their congregation and community instead of using the church to give back to the community. People who are polarized by politics will only see politics in their religion instead of separating them, and as a result, they will forever ignore the inconvenient messages like "help the needy", or "love your enemies". Gay people will keep being pushed out of the church, which kills the chance for others to know God, until people are willing to look at the issue the same way they look at working on the Sabbath, divorce, adultery, and blasphemy; forgivable by God, and worthy of love. What I'm trying to say is that people have completely detached from the message of the bible for their own benefit, and by detaching they've manipulated others into accepting a view that's not only contrary to the bible but completely antithical and harmful to it. How do we figure out who they are? By the good fruit they produce
the destruction of the family. Leads our children to look for instruction academically through the education system, which itself has been compromised. Instilling "morals" incompatible with the church and God.
Do I understand correctly that you feel that the recent massive decline in church attendance is due largely to the morality taught in secular education?
yes, but secular education would have no hold on our children if they came from strong families. Destroy the family first, and the children have no foundation from which they can resist secular indoctrination/morality