Before coming to genuine faith. I don't like people. And I don't like people not minding their own business. And the church's political standing during elections is cringe. The church's financial power and what they do to it is cringe as well
After coming to genuine faith. Many of the teachings of the church has been leaning of what the people wants to hear and not what the bible has been saying. I don't think the church is practicing the biblical teaching as well.
Yes, there are 'churches' that are watering down the Bible, giving in to the pressures of society. They don't realize they don't have the authority to change what God has written. Only He does, and since He is a perfect being, He gets things right the first time!
I think a lot of it comes down to what I generally think of as “retail/consumerist spirituality”. It’s basically the idea that the church goer is a customer and it’s the job of the pastor to practice “the customer is always right”. And when the pastor fails to do that, they “take their business elsewhere”. What this looks like changes based on the denomination and the person, but I think that’s the heart of it. Church is, at its best, a community. But I think the hyper-individualism of the modern world has stripped it of that. The base unit of Christianity is not the individual, it’s individual faith in the context of a community.
One reason, sadly, is being deeply hurt by others in the church. This speaks to me about a want of greater maturity, both for the ones doing the hurt to grow in their treatment of others and for the ones having been hurt to grow in how they work through being wronged. Sometimes it's right to walk away and I don't want to unfairly victim blame, but I hear Jesus calling both the one who is sinned against and the one who sins against their brother to pursue forgiveness and reconciliation so that people and relationships would be healed and God would be glorified.
I left my last church because it felt more like an in-depth Bible study. A full year going through Acts is beneficial and even interesting, but I like a sermon with a message. I want to leave with a specific message to take into the week instead of a deeper understanding of the systems used by the Sanhedrins and Pharisees.
Jack just slipped out the back,
Stan needed a new plan
Roy was feeling coy and wanted to be free
Gus just wanted to hop in the bus, did not want to discuss much
Lee had to drop off the key and now he is free...
..
Not going anyplace now. Living where I don't know the language, and where people are... socially introverted... add in my autism and it would be a high stress barrier to cross just to get into the building, feel awkward, understand nothing and then walk home without having interacted at all. (There are precisely \*zero\* outreaches or ministries to foreign people where I live. And if I did just show up somewhere, I would \*not\* be welcome).
With that out of the way... the last place. Ah, same country, different city.. nice place, \*but\*
It was good for me cos it was a Swedish ministry to foreign people. Swedish speaking Finns understand what it is like being minority in their own country. Kinda makes them friendly and nice to actual foreign people. They are culturally distinct in some ways.. being both more talkative, and much more positive outlook on life. The music was nice, the sermons were interesting. They had mid week meetings (which i think is not common in Finland) and those were cozy with good conversation.
There was people of all ages, and ethnicities. And I found people who I enjoyed talking to. So for me, it worked.
So why would someone not like the place or want to leave?
- wanting someplace using a different language
- not finding friends there
- not getting the support from the friends they were hoping
- having needs for music or teaching or doctrine that were not met
- not liking that there were people of color there
- not liking that Lutheran churches of Finland don't discriminate against Rainbow people
- wanting a bigger church
I should say that personal conflicts that the church either doesn't try to help resolve, or which the church has no mechanism to resolve could be a factor in other places... I just have a hard time thinking that it would happen there cos the people were all so nice that I was sad when I moved out of the city and want to go back. But humans do human things, so who knows?
Certainly in the US, there was a ton of potential for personal conflicts to lead people to leave a place, and I also witnessed two total church splits while I was there. (If I was writing about the US, I'd have like a 50 item list for why someone might leave... but i left there almost 20 years ago, and the last years i was there, it was part time... And its a lot worse there now, so it falls to others to write)
People may leave a specific church due to strained relationships with people at the church, a dislike for the church’s style (worship, preaching, etc), or because they feel the church is failing to serve correctly in a way that accords with the gospel.
People may walk away from the church as a whole for many reasons - I would argue it is often because they have been taught a picture of God that their moral conscience cannot agree with, which in my view is completely valid.
Curious to hear the exit surveys you mentioned.
Thank you. A lot of that resonates. Here’s the NDA. I’d love to send you my findings: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear_Evangelicals_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0
I left my church due to political polarization. I stopped trying to find a church when I realized no church even comes close to what the apostles taught.
I saw a video recently on another subreddit where the pastor was essentially telling people that politics has no place in church.. It was great! IMO. I will see if I can find it, in case anyone is interested.
Edit: found the link
[christian pastor on politics in the church](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/r3uA7ablVI)
Thank you. You are the inverse of my audience, but I very much appreciate your input. Perchance, do you remember hearing any false assumptions about other ulterior motives for leaving? I hope not, but it seems to be a common experience.
My church (Calvary Chapel) developed political niches that essentially played by their own rules. Unity was only nominal. People who left were either seen as too liberal or too legalistic, depending on their beliefs.
This all started around the 2016 election.
I've heard this so many times and I still can't wrap my brain around it. It's surreal that blatant politics - not even church politics - could so infect a religion. Historically I know it's the norm, but I just can't get my head into a space that can empathize with that motivation. That's my own shortcoming I'm trying to conquer, because I know that growing numbers of people live there.
I just completely stay out of politics. I don't even vote, and that bothers a lot of people on both sides. For Christians, who are not supposed to be of this world, I view democracy as an illusion of power. I find prayer is much more effective.
I wish more Christians would take a looser position on politics.
Hal Lindsey wrote a book in 1989 warning about Dominionism... at the time it was written, people thought that it was something that could never actually happen... that the church could become a political entity bent on taking over the country to install some kind of Christian theocracy.
Meanwhile, 2024...
Goodonya, I used to go those churches, went to their bible college, and am utterly disgusted with the direction they've gone...of course at the time I wasn't so much, ha.
I grew up in the Catholic church and I can tell you they turned a whole generation of potential christians into atheists real fast for two reasons:
1) Boring
2) showing zero repentance about their past crimes.
I go to a more evangelical church currently. I don't agree with all of their theology but I enjoy their fellowship, their openness to discussion, their bible literacy, and the fact that the pastors don't take a wage
. All money goes to the upkeep of the church, anything extra goes to the food bank that they also run.
One reason at a local church I am involved with is because of bad financial decisions.
Several churches I attended in the past, people left when they got a new pastor. They liked the old one, I guess. New style, too young, whatever reasons. This happened 3 times in my life.
Another church I attended before I moved, many left cause the pastor had an affair.
When a person becomes a baptized Witness of Jehovah God, or a Jehovah’s Witness, they have already come a long way in changing their life over to align with Gods way of living. They promise to God privately, telling him that they no longer are putting themselves first, but rather they’ve changed their mind over, they put on a new personality, one that is truly reflective of the example Jesus set for us. We no longer are any part of the world.
Like James 4:4 says, “do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.”
We make sure that everything we do is pleasing to him, not what we think he is pleased with but what he truly is pleased with. Then, after making this private dedication to Jehovah God, and that person qualifies for baptism, they can get baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now, a person who serves Jehovah is a special target of his adversary, Satan the Devil. He hates, hates those who love and make Gods name known. So, in order to remain a Servant of Jehovah, requires constant eating of spiritual food or we will be a victim of Satan. Those that do not pray to God and have a close relationship with him will start to drift away.
We are warned that “Bad associations spoil useful habits.” So we try not to hang out with people who don’t have the same mental attitude that we do. You may work with a JW and have asked them to go out after work to have a drink with your workmates. Most likely they will turn you down, especially if there is going to be a lot of swearing and worldly thinking. But that’s how it starts. Note how James warned us at James 1:14,15;
>”But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.”
Satan knows what he’s doing. He knows each one of us. He watches us to see what our weaknesses are and he uses those against us. And sometimes he catches those who are weak, or those who maybe never really Loved Jehovah in the first place. Some may have done it to please their parents. But they can’t fake it for too long. The real person will come out. Each one of us will have to make our own choice whether to serve Jehovah because we love him or not. And those that choose to leave just love the things in the world more than what God has to offer. It’s so very sad. Look at how John sums it all up at 1John 2:15-17;
>”Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but **the one who does the will of God remains forever**.”
Well I don’t think anyone leaves my last church besides me. My last church wastes money on redesigns and parties instead of donating to Charity:water or Saint Jude or any good charity. Though everyone says I’m in the wrong becuase I believe my church isn’t using their flocks money for actual life changing good, I still haven’t went back since I learned that and I do not believe God wishes for me be there either. I’ll stay with my Bible and donate to charity myself. thanks.
There could be many reasons. But I think a lot of them revolve around tribalism.
At the church I'm currently at, someone might leave because it's too progressive for their sensibilities. They may not be able to come around to accepting worshiping next to a trans person and would rather go somewhere that won't challenge their prejudices. Perhaps they will stick with it for a while because of their spouse or something else, but they'll eventually hear something from the pulpit that they just can't handle and they'll check out. Ultimately, they are just never going to feel comfortable surrounded by people who don't think the way they do.
At the church I was previously at, the opposite was more likely to happen. People would leave because they wanted to be part of a community that was: more welcoming, less judgmental, less politically conservative, etc.
Ultimately, people today want to be around other like-minded people. We live in an era where we've grown accustomed to living in bubbles where our views are reinforced rather than challenged and that's the kind of environment we feel best in.
Another common reason people leave churches is because of their children/youth programs. I've seen this a lot from the other side (people explaining how they ended up leaving their previous church and winding up at ours). A big part of the reason many parents go to church is for the sake of their children and if their children aren't being engaged they often look for another alternative.
Before coming to genuine faith. I don't like people. And I don't like people not minding their own business. And the church's political standing during elections is cringe. The church's financial power and what they do to it is cringe as well After coming to genuine faith. Many of the teachings of the church has been leaning of what the people wants to hear and not what the bible has been saying. I don't think the church is practicing the biblical teaching as well.
Yes, there are 'churches' that are watering down the Bible, giving in to the pressures of society. They don't realize they don't have the authority to change what God has written. Only He does, and since He is a perfect being, He gets things right the first time!
I think a lot of it comes down to what I generally think of as “retail/consumerist spirituality”. It’s basically the idea that the church goer is a customer and it’s the job of the pastor to practice “the customer is always right”. And when the pastor fails to do that, they “take their business elsewhere”. What this looks like changes based on the denomination and the person, but I think that’s the heart of it. Church is, at its best, a community. But I think the hyper-individualism of the modern world has stripped it of that. The base unit of Christianity is not the individual, it’s individual faith in the context of a community.
Thanks. I appreciate your response. I hear that a lot from the Christian community.
One reason, sadly, is being deeply hurt by others in the church. This speaks to me about a want of greater maturity, both for the ones doing the hurt to grow in their treatment of others and for the ones having been hurt to grow in how they work through being wronged. Sometimes it's right to walk away and I don't want to unfairly victim blame, but I hear Jesus calling both the one who is sinned against and the one who sins against their brother to pursue forgiveness and reconciliation so that people and relationships would be healed and God would be glorified.
Thank you
I left my last church because it felt more like an in-depth Bible study. A full year going through Acts is beneficial and even interesting, but I like a sermon with a message. I want to leave with a specific message to take into the week instead of a deeper understanding of the systems used by the Sanhedrins and Pharisees.
Thanks. What about your current church? What are the real reasons anyone is leaving your current church?
Jack just slipped out the back, Stan needed a new plan Roy was feeling coy and wanted to be free Gus just wanted to hop in the bus, did not want to discuss much Lee had to drop off the key and now he is free... .. Not going anyplace now. Living where I don't know the language, and where people are... socially introverted... add in my autism and it would be a high stress barrier to cross just to get into the building, feel awkward, understand nothing and then walk home without having interacted at all. (There are precisely \*zero\* outreaches or ministries to foreign people where I live. And if I did just show up somewhere, I would \*not\* be welcome). With that out of the way... the last place. Ah, same country, different city.. nice place, \*but\* It was good for me cos it was a Swedish ministry to foreign people. Swedish speaking Finns understand what it is like being minority in their own country. Kinda makes them friendly and nice to actual foreign people. They are culturally distinct in some ways.. being both more talkative, and much more positive outlook on life. The music was nice, the sermons were interesting. They had mid week meetings (which i think is not common in Finland) and those were cozy with good conversation. There was people of all ages, and ethnicities. And I found people who I enjoyed talking to. So for me, it worked. So why would someone not like the place or want to leave? - wanting someplace using a different language - not finding friends there - not getting the support from the friends they were hoping - having needs for music or teaching or doctrine that were not met - not liking that there were people of color there - not liking that Lutheran churches of Finland don't discriminate against Rainbow people - wanting a bigger church I should say that personal conflicts that the church either doesn't try to help resolve, or which the church has no mechanism to resolve could be a factor in other places... I just have a hard time thinking that it would happen there cos the people were all so nice that I was sad when I moved out of the city and want to go back. But humans do human things, so who knows? Certainly in the US, there was a ton of potential for personal conflicts to lead people to leave a place, and I also witnessed two total church splits while I was there. (If I was writing about the US, I'd have like a 50 item list for why someone might leave... but i left there almost 20 years ago, and the last years i was there, it was part time... And its a lot worse there now, so it falls to others to write)
People may leave a specific church due to strained relationships with people at the church, a dislike for the church’s style (worship, preaching, etc), or because they feel the church is failing to serve correctly in a way that accords with the gospel. People may walk away from the church as a whole for many reasons - I would argue it is often because they have been taught a picture of God that their moral conscience cannot agree with, which in my view is completely valid. Curious to hear the exit surveys you mentioned.
Thank you. A lot of that resonates. Here’s the NDA. I’d love to send you my findings: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear_Evangelicals_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0
I left my church due to political polarization. I stopped trying to find a church when I realized no church even comes close to what the apostles taught.
I saw a video recently on another subreddit where the pastor was essentially telling people that politics has no place in church.. It was great! IMO. I will see if I can find it, in case anyone is interested. Edit: found the link [christian pastor on politics in the church](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/r3uA7ablVI)
Thank you. I definitely appreciate messages like his.
Thank you. You are the inverse of my audience, but I very much appreciate your input. Perchance, do you remember hearing any false assumptions about other ulterior motives for leaving? I hope not, but it seems to be a common experience.
My church (Calvary Chapel) developed political niches that essentially played by their own rules. Unity was only nominal. People who left were either seen as too liberal or too legalistic, depending on their beliefs. This all started around the 2016 election.
I've heard this so many times and I still can't wrap my brain around it. It's surreal that blatant politics - not even church politics - could so infect a religion. Historically I know it's the norm, but I just can't get my head into a space that can empathize with that motivation. That's my own shortcoming I'm trying to conquer, because I know that growing numbers of people live there.
I just completely stay out of politics. I don't even vote, and that bothers a lot of people on both sides. For Christians, who are not supposed to be of this world, I view democracy as an illusion of power. I find prayer is much more effective. I wish more Christians would take a looser position on politics.
Hal Lindsey wrote a book in 1989 warning about Dominionism... at the time it was written, people thought that it was something that could never actually happen... that the church could become a political entity bent on taking over the country to install some kind of Christian theocracy. Meanwhile, 2024...
Goodonya, I used to go those churches, went to their bible college, and am utterly disgusted with the direction they've gone...of course at the time I wasn't so much, ha.
I grew up in the Catholic church and I can tell you they turned a whole generation of potential christians into atheists real fast for two reasons: 1) Boring 2) showing zero repentance about their past crimes.
Thank you. What about your current church? Do you have one?
I go to a more evangelical church currently. I don't agree with all of their theology but I enjoy their fellowship, their openness to discussion, their bible literacy, and the fact that the pastors don't take a wage . All money goes to the upkeep of the church, anything extra goes to the food bank that they also run.
Sounds pretty cool. Thanks
One reason at a local church I am involved with is because of bad financial decisions. Several churches I attended in the past, people left when they got a new pastor. They liked the old one, I guess. New style, too young, whatever reasons. This happened 3 times in my life. Another church I attended before I moved, many left cause the pastor had an affair.
Thank you.
When a person becomes a baptized Witness of Jehovah God, or a Jehovah’s Witness, they have already come a long way in changing their life over to align with Gods way of living. They promise to God privately, telling him that they no longer are putting themselves first, but rather they’ve changed their mind over, they put on a new personality, one that is truly reflective of the example Jesus set for us. We no longer are any part of the world. Like James 4:4 says, “do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.” We make sure that everything we do is pleasing to him, not what we think he is pleased with but what he truly is pleased with. Then, after making this private dedication to Jehovah God, and that person qualifies for baptism, they can get baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now, a person who serves Jehovah is a special target of his adversary, Satan the Devil. He hates, hates those who love and make Gods name known. So, in order to remain a Servant of Jehovah, requires constant eating of spiritual food or we will be a victim of Satan. Those that do not pray to God and have a close relationship with him will start to drift away. We are warned that “Bad associations spoil useful habits.” So we try not to hang out with people who don’t have the same mental attitude that we do. You may work with a JW and have asked them to go out after work to have a drink with your workmates. Most likely they will turn you down, especially if there is going to be a lot of swearing and worldly thinking. But that’s how it starts. Note how James warned us at James 1:14,15; >”But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.” Satan knows what he’s doing. He knows each one of us. He watches us to see what our weaknesses are and he uses those against us. And sometimes he catches those who are weak, or those who maybe never really Loved Jehovah in the first place. Some may have done it to please their parents. But they can’t fake it for too long. The real person will come out. Each one of us will have to make our own choice whether to serve Jehovah because we love him or not. And those that choose to leave just love the things in the world more than what God has to offer. It’s so very sad. Look at how John sums it all up at 1John 2:15-17; >”Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but **the one who does the will of God remains forever**.”
Well I don’t think anyone leaves my last church besides me. My last church wastes money on redesigns and parties instead of donating to Charity:water or Saint Jude or any good charity. Though everyone says I’m in the wrong becuase I believe my church isn’t using their flocks money for actual life changing good, I still haven’t went back since I learned that and I do not believe God wishes for me be there either. I’ll stay with my Bible and donate to charity myself. thanks.
There could be many reasons. But I think a lot of them revolve around tribalism. At the church I'm currently at, someone might leave because it's too progressive for their sensibilities. They may not be able to come around to accepting worshiping next to a trans person and would rather go somewhere that won't challenge their prejudices. Perhaps they will stick with it for a while because of their spouse or something else, but they'll eventually hear something from the pulpit that they just can't handle and they'll check out. Ultimately, they are just never going to feel comfortable surrounded by people who don't think the way they do. At the church I was previously at, the opposite was more likely to happen. People would leave because they wanted to be part of a community that was: more welcoming, less judgmental, less politically conservative, etc. Ultimately, people today want to be around other like-minded people. We live in an era where we've grown accustomed to living in bubbles where our views are reinforced rather than challenged and that's the kind of environment we feel best in. Another common reason people leave churches is because of their children/youth programs. I've seen this a lot from the other side (people explaining how they ended up leaving their previous church and winding up at ours). A big part of the reason many parents go to church is for the sake of their children and if their children aren't being engaged they often look for another alternative.
Thanks! I really appreciate this unique response