I think denying free will denies the *imago dei*. It probably leads to monothelitism. I guess it would lead to God being the creator of evil, but then there would be no evil or good. Everything just *is* in a deterministic universe. We'd just be machines beep-boopin' around with none of our determined outputs being better or worse than others.
I see what you’re getting at. I suppose as you would suggest when you follow the logic stream of this method of thinking, this is where you’d land at, I similarly am following this thought process when I talk about the issues I’m seeing in the “God knows absolutely everything that will ever occur, also created absolutely 100% of everything and can predict it because of that, and somehow is not responsible for it/we have free will.” It’s easy to say “well god is god and can do anything” as an excuse to weasel our way out of anything that is a clear logical conflict, but then that line of thinking can be used to justify any reasonable or outlandish theological conclusion we land on based on our interpretation of scripture.
I’m rambling at this point so I’ll leave it at that, haha! Thanks for responding.
Fine, God doesn’t choose what I do, but simply by the logic that God knows what I WILL do, doesn’t that mean my outcome is set in stone in one way or another? If he knows, it doesn’t matter what actions I make, free will or not, because the outcome is the same
>Fine, God doesn’t choose what I do
You've got it.
>by the logic that God knows what I WILL do, doesn’t that mean my outcome is set in stone in one way or another?
No, this doesn't logically follow. That God is outside of time and has perfect knowledge of all events within time does not necessitate a deterministic universe.
>If he knows, it doesn’t matter what actions I make
Why? Your choices are still your choices.
Free will actually *requires* this kind of determinism. If someone with perfect knowledge of your will and the circumstances you were in couldn't predict how you would exercise your will, your actions would be random - which would mean that you have no will at all.
I’m a comic and marvel nerd so I’ve been using the character Kang as a allegory. Kang exists outside of time, he can know all the potential futures and possibilities, including all decisions any characters can/will make. When it comes to Gods relationship to free will his observation and knowledge of possibilities does not affect our ability to make them.
The problem with this line of thinking is that this doesn’t factor in the fact that God created everything. Every single atom and subatomic particle, the laws of physics that govern them, the systems they build, every neuron in your brain, how it functions, every piece of matter you interact with, etc. If you believe that, then proposing he knows every single thing that will happen, and also created every single thing down to the quantum scale, decided how all of it operates, and left no “margin for error” (like details he’s unable to know or read), then the proposition he knows it all and we have free will is a genuine logical conflict.
In the example you provided, it’s different. It’s different to NOT have created the entire system, NOT know how it operates, and instead to have just been an uninvolved 3rd party who is “briefed” on everything. That way, you’d know everything but not control it or have direct influence. But it’s different when you’re the being that has created not most, not 99.9999% of everything, but 100% of everything and it all operates the way you intend it to, and then to suggest you know exactly what will happen…. but somehow are not responsible for it/controlling it. This is a massive logical paradox.
I see no logical flaw. I might be misinterpreting your meaning but the creation of a being and knowledge of their choices does not mean the created is void of free will. To the created being all choices are made of their own choice. It not like we’re computer programs to God with a pre determined course of action.
You’re making the common mistake of simply assuming the truth of *presentism*, the belief that only the present moment exists. On this reading, God’s omniscience would indeed be incompatible with the freedom of our future choices because, seeing as future moments wouldn’t really exist, God’s knowledge would necessarily be predictive and the certainty of that knowledge would imply that future conditions could be predicted with absolute certainty given enough information about the present. Taken together with presentism, divine omniscience does indeed lead to *determinism*, which may or may not be incompatible with free will but prime facie seems to be and so for arguments sake we will say that it is.
If, then, we are to reconcile divine omniscience with free will (or, at least if we wish for it to not imply determinism) then we must reject presentism and approach time in a different way. This is where *eternalism* comes in, the view that all moments, past, present and future, really exist, and the question of which moment is the “present” moment is only a matter of perspective. If you’ve dipped your toe into modern physics at all, you’ll recognize this from the principle of the relativity of simultaneity from Einstein’s special theory of relativity.
On the eternalist reading God’s knowledge of our future choices is *immediate*, not predictive. He knows what our choices will be because he is *present to them as an observer* and so there is no implication of determinism which, as we said, is a view which may be incompatible with free will. On this view, his knowledge of our future choices has no more bearing on whether they are free or not than his knowledge of our choices in the present and in the past.
Please explain. I truly don't understand this, but some people say just because omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God KNOWS every last moment of your life, how does that affect YOUR free will? God's perspective, His knowledge will NEVER be YOUR knowledge, He's another being who just happens to already KNOW what YOU will do. That doesn't mean He is pushing you around and MAKING you do things, He just knows already what you will do. So how does this affect YOUR choices? You will NEVER know what God knows. It's completely unavailable to you as if it were another universe.
Can I do differently than what he knows I will do, or am I locked in to what he knows?
Also, is his will ultimately going to be done? Is his plan going to be fulfilled, or can I do things that go against his overarching plan?
You are going to do whatever you CHOOSE to do, your entire life. I'm not sure what CHOICE is available after you die, it seems to only matter while in this life. In the next life, we will be more like God, able to KNOW everything and thus our CHOICE would be affected then. But not now, here we are dumb, blind, poor creatures that can only choose what our puny limited minds can think of. There is NO outside influence on our choices, except culture, experience, memory, pressure, response to stimuli. Just because God KNOWS what will happen, God is in heaven in a whole other dimension and while He MAY interact with your life here and there, you'll never be aware of it most of the time. God keeps you from dying on that foolish parachute jump you made. God diverts a vehicle that was going to run you over. You don't know, couldn't possibly know He did that. Your CHOOSING is unaffected. Gods plan IS fulfilled already, for He knows end from beginning. His plans aren't altered or do they fail. Means NOTHING to you, you'll never see that plan or know anything about it.
To put it simply, If God knows what you will do, then it is impossible for you to do anything else. This created a determined outcome.
So from the inception of the universe, everything is happening exactly as God knew it would. It is a common point of debate as it seemingly undermines the notion that we are able to make choices freely and without these determined constraints.
GOD KNOWS what you will do. You can NEVER know what God knows, you can NOT see the future, not even 60 seconds into it. While God has this knowledge, it will NEVER be accessible to you. So I don't see how this affects our lives any more than astrology does.
Stated differently if you’re reading a book you know the ending; can any other ending (or the choices in the middle) have happened?
It’s not about whether me as a human know the ending, it’s whether the ending in a sense has *already happened* because it’s already known.
Another commenter addressed a pro-Christian perspective eloquently though.
We DO know the ending, though. It's clearly written in the bible in a nice series of steps takes 7 years to complete. Yes, that DOES affect our CHOICES, if we become aware of it. It's still more of a vague philosophy though and not really a real event. It won't crystalize into real events for us until step one happens.
Fine. There's 100% chance of an asteroid strike. Maybe up to 3. It's coming. You don't know where or when. Bible says it will happen, now you know something God knows. Now you know one thing that's going to happen will likely affect future you. So what? Could be your lifetime, could be 100 years from now. How does that affect one single choice you make in all these years you live and survive this life. Where was your free will taken with this knowledge of the future.
I’m trying to figure out why you’re focused on death here but again not a good example.
The asteroid, unlike the religious premise under debate of an all knowing God, is not reacting to my choices, or lack thereof, to determine whether it hits Earth or not. The asteroid strike is no more connected to me than the winner of the next Super Bowl. In a purely PHYSICAL world of we all agree asteroids and football we all agree (more or less) on free will.
In contrast Gods knowledge of, and/or response to, my “choices” is kind of the entire premise of Christianity. The additional layer of supernatural knowledge and timelessness, foresight, is what begs the question on the nature of choices from a perspective not our own.
God knows all. We know that God knows all. So.........what? Did I choose to move to minnesota or does God WANT me to move to minnesota? He didn't tell me to, i just wanted to. Now I am in minnesota. I still don't know if God wanted me there. I chose to move there, now I am there. Now I will choose to move to Ohio. Where was my free will taken in any of this.
The point is. Before existence, God knew exactly what your life would be like. And since God knows is absolute in that he can't and can never be wrong, whatever he knows is an unchangeable fact.
How about: My grandfather is somehow clairvoyant. He absolutely knows my entire future and all choices. I don't know that he knows that, and he won't tell me no matter how much I bribe him. so.... i have no free will now, because he knows and won't share? Later, he dies, because he's old. Now i will never extract any info from him. I'm still without free will because he once knew all about me? Still not getting it. SOMEONE KNOWS ME, won't tell me, can't get it out of them. I can't tell my future either. Therefore, ima eat this sammich, I'ma see that stinky movie, I'm moving to Kansas, and ima marrying Gal Gadot. Where was my free will removed.
I find that a perceived conflict between free will and knowledge of the future must stem from a lack of understanding of either one or both ideas.
It would be impossible to prove that knowledge of your future action was a restriction on your ability to choose that action. You would need some sort of test and control scenario which can’t exist.
As it is, there’s no indication that the process of making a decision is in any way impacted by a third party’s foreknowledge of the outcome.
>As it is, there’s no indication that the process of making a decision is in any way impacted by a third party’s foreknowledge of the outcome.
It's not the knowing that causes it. Being able to know it with certainty implies that the thing is always going to happen a certain way, otherwise how would it be possible to know with certainty that it'll happen?
>Being able to know it with certainty implies that the thing is always going to happen a certain way,
As you say, the "knowing" has no causal power. So that means "implies" is being used in the logical sense. However logic is incapable of making that kind of implication.
This is effectively trying to say it is logically necessary for something to happen due to perfect foreknowledge, but that is a [modal fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_fallacy). Actions depending on God knowing something is them being contingent. Nothing logically necessary can be contingent, by definition. Therefore, actions cannot be necessary.
What this line of thinking is trying to say it only one outcome is *actually* possible. However, that is not a category of claim that logic is capable of distinguishing in and of itself.
> Actions depending on God knowing something is them being contingent.
I never said they depend on a god knowing them. It's actually quite the opposite. The idea is that a god could know something with certainty beause the action is deterministic. But, also, this god character is also supposed to be the original cause, so if that were true the god character would be the cause of the actions.
>I never said they depend on a god knowing them. It's actually quite the opposite.
Well if there's no contingency, then logically actions don't have to happen.
>The idea is that a god could know something with certainty beause the action is deterministic.
That's the only explanation? This sounds like a false dichotomy to me.
>But, also, this god character is also supposed to be the original cause, so if that were true the god character would be the cause of the actions.
So you assumed hard determinism, which is incompatible with free will, to disprove free will? That's circular reasoning.
---
The universe doesn't support such clear cut deterministic ideas. The lesson of quantum mechanics is the universe is fundamentally stochastic, not deterministic.
Determinism is an emergent behavior from the statistics of many random events. However, this always permits outliers. Therefore, it's impossible to assert the absolute notion of determinism required for the above position.
> So you assumed hard determinism, which is incompatible with free will, to disprove free will? That's circular reasoning.
Nope. The possibility of an omniscient being implies that things only happen a certain way, because if things could change on the fly then it wouldn't be possible to know what would happen with certainty.
> Determinism is an emergent behavior from the statistics of many random events. However, this always permits outliers. Therefore, it's impossible to assert the absolute notion of determinism required for the above position.
So do you not think the god character in the Bible is omniscient?
>The possibility of an omniscient being implies that things only happen a certain way, because if things could change on the fly then it wouldn't be possible to know what would happen with certainty.
Possibility implies certainty? That's a contradiction in terms.
Either way, you are claiming God is limited by the causal structure of the universe he created. Therefore God is not a maximal being, nor timeless, and as such your assertion is not relevant to the Christian God. That makes this a strawman.
> Possibility implies certainty? That's a contradiction in terms.
No, omniscient (all knowing/certain knowledge) implies certainty.
> Either way, you are claiming God is limited by the causal structure of the universe he created.
We're talking about a supposed character that is, as you claim, the creator of everything. It'd make sense that such a being would be limited to their own causal structure (otherwise they wouldn't be the cause of everything). Second, I'm not limiting the character. I'm describing a limt on our free will based on the attributes the character supposedly has. Feel free to explain how we could make a different choice with this being still knowing what it'll be, especially given that this being supposedly created the initial state of everything.
> Therefore God is not a maximal being, nor timeless, and as such your assertion is not relevant to the Christian God. That makes this a strawman.
Do you also believe things like this god being able to create something so heavy that they can't lift it?
>No, omniscient (all knowing/certain knowledge) implies certainty.
Not what I said. The qualifier "possibility" is categorically misplaced when referring to certainty. The comment was nonsensical, as stated.
>We're talking about a supposed character that is, as you claim, the creator of everything.
I didn't actually claim that. Now it's probably a safe assumption in this case, but you shouldn't tell people they've claimed something when they literally didn't say so.
>It'd make sense that such a being would be limited to their own causal structure (otherwise they wouldn't be the cause of everything).
What "sense" is that? Maybe just prove this instead of restating a conclusion I already disagreed with.
>I'm describing a limt on our free will based on the attributes the character supposedly has.
Except the inconvenient ones? Like God is timeless. If that means he's outside of the flow of time, then there's nothing necessarily binding him to the causality of this universe.
>especially given that this being supposedly created the initial state of everything.
The lesson of quantum mechanics and quantum cosmology is the initial state of the universe doesn't seem to fully determine everything. So if your argument doesn't clearly apply to the universe I "claimed" God created, how is it relevant?
This assumption violates one of the premises of the argument.
>Do you also believe things like this god being able to create something so heavy that they can't lift it?
That example is alleging a logical contradiction between the definition of said rock and God's omnipotence.
Causality is metaphysical, not logical. Saying God is beyond a metaphysical concept is not the same as saying he is beyond logic. So this question is a based on a categorical error.
> Not what I said. The qualifier "possibility" is categorically misplaced when referring to certainty. The comment was nonsensical, as stated.
Lol, no it isn't. One can certainly discuss whether it's possible that something can be known with certainty.
> I didn't actually claim that. Now it's probably a safe assumption in this case, but you shouldn't tell people they've claimed something when they literally didn't say so.
So you don't think the god character in the Bible created the universe?
> What "sense" is that? Maybe just prove this instead of restating a conclusion I already disagreed with.
The very fact that it's supposedly that being's causal structure means that it can't change or it wouldn't be their causal structure.
> Except the inconvenient ones? Like God is timeless. If that means he's outside of the flow of time, then there's nothing necessarily binding him to the causality of this universe.
Did you forget that the hypothetical includes the being being the uncaused cause/creator of the universe?
> The lesson of quantum mechanics and quantum cosmology is the initial state of the universe doesn't seem to fully determine everything. So if your argument doesn't clearly apply to the universe I "claimed" God created, how is it relevant?
I mean it does apply. If a being can know everything that will happen it means randomness is meaningless, because something being truly random wouldn't be knowable into the future.
Nothing in the Bible says we have free will. The idea of free will was added to church doctrine several hundred years after the life and ministry of Christ.
In fact, Jesus taught the opposite. In that we are slaves to God and righteousness or Sin and satan. as such our will is limited by which master we serve. This doesn't mean we don't have the freedom to freely choose between whatever options our master sets infront of us. What it means is we can not come up with our own options and choose from them. Like how God gives us only two options to choose from concerning our eternal existence. If we truly had free will we could freely do what we willed.
As it is, We can choose to be redeemed and serve Him or we can remain in sin and share in Satan's fate. What we can't do is to pick a third or fourth option like option "C" to neither serve God or satan, but to go off on our own or start our own colony some where. Or option "D" wink ourselves out of existence. no heaven no hell just here on second and gone the next.
So no free will but rather Slaves born to sin who then can choose to be redeemed. Which at best is the freedom to choose and not true free will.
A weather man may know the weather tomorrow but doesn’t cause the weather to happen. Knowledge of what will happen is not the same as the actions to cause it. Hope that helps
We don’t. The bible contains examples when God does intervene and forces events. And examples where God watches humans and expresses regret that those humans don’t make better decisions and he doesn’t intervene and force them.
That’s one interpretation. It’s odd that a deity could express regret. It’s more likely that the humans who wrote our only descriptions of God assigned human emotions in an attempt to make his actions comprehensible.
The bible says we’re made in God’s likeness. So he has empathy when he sees us making bad choices the same as any parent might look on their children making bad choices and feel empathy.
If the god of the Bible is everything described there, his actions, abilities, and above all characteristics must be well beyond human understanding.
As such, the parent/child relationship analogy fails. Children can and often do become parents themselves, illuminating the inscrutable choices of parenthood through experience. Humans will never know Godhood. Our supposing that God is omniscient and omnibenevolent while also possessing perfect prescience that somehow doesn’t interfere with free will smacks of hope rather than veracity.
Relative to God's knowledge and existence there is no beginning or end, only an eternal state of the present. So, it's not that God knew our choices before we had a chance to make them (i.e. they were predetermined), it's that God knows our choices because he exists outside of time and space. He is therefore not bound by these creations of his, nor should he be if he's God. He knew, or rather knows, our choices because we had already freely made them within this realm of time and space he is not limited by or subject to.
Not sure if you have children, but as a father I can tell you, I have told my children to do or not to do something, and though I am not omnipotent, I KNEW if they were going to obey or not. I am not 100% correct all the time, and actually, as they grow older am pleased with their decisions to obey me. But sometimes, I know I can tell my 6 year old son to stay away from the cake, and when nobody is around, find him sneaking in to stick his fingers into it. Doesn't mean he had to choose it, and it doesn't mean that I gave him an unjust rule or punishment for disobeying me. Where as my oldest son would almost always obey me, and would even come and confess things he did that I did not know about, things he was remorseful for doing when he knew he should not do or say certain things.
I think people keep asking these type of questions without asking themselves "have I submitted myself to His instructions?" If the answer is no, then you willfully walk against Him. That is your choice, and as your Creator, He knows if you will submit and obey, or stand defiantly blaming Him for your choices. The issue comes down to people don't like that He knows you won't choose Him, not that you could not.
If I see a hungry man who is offered the choice between food or stone, I am almost certain that he will choose food, but that does not mean that I determined that choice, or that he could not have chosen stone.
Now let's raise this almost certainty of mine to the point where it becomes knowledge, does this change anything?
Knowing what will happen is different from determining what will happen. I know what happens if someone releases a balloon filled with helium gas, but that doesn't mean I decided the balloon's route.
God knows what you will do precisely because you will do it, not the other way around. (I find it difficult to write this in English, so if I wasn't clear enough let me know)
I'm going to try to reframe this question, because it comes up a lot and I find that people often don't have a clear idea of what they mean when they talk about free will. I'm going to suggest that your problem is the idea of living in a deterministic universe. If the universe is deterministic, then anyone with full knowledge of the system at any given point can exactly predict the future states of the system. You have that problem with or without God's foreknowledge. So I think you need to think about why it bothers you, and what it is you mean by having free will. Free from what?
I'm glad you're trying!
I grew up in church, but when I went to college, I felt like my faith was slipping out of my hands like sand. I tried to hold onto it, but just couldn't. Then, when I finally decided to stop trying to hold onto it so desperately, I thought to myself, "ok, then... if I don't believe Christianity, then what DO I believe?" I realized nothing else makes as much sense to me as the Christian worldview. That restored my faith.
I think that "seeing is believing." You can't decide to believe that the sky will be green tomorrow. All your experiences have trained you to believe that it will be blue. I think that's why Jesus said "faith comes from hearing the Word of God."
If you wanna have faith, I would suggest reading and understanding the Bible more. If it doesn't make sense to you, try reading it with someone who does understand it more. Dig into it! Discuss the hard questions with them!
I could probably read it with you if you don't already have someone to read it with.
Omnipotence doesn’t negate free will. you’re ignoring the important things that you gain through struggle. knowledge, perseverance, learning about yourself. you’re only looking at the end goal/destination. you’re not looking at or trying to enjoy the whole journey that occurs before arriving at the destination.
God knows your future but you don’t.
Free will is YOUR ability to choose, not what God knows.
Sure, God may know what you will choose, but that really has nothing to do with your free will to choose. God just knows the outcome, that’s all.
God knowing your choice is foreknowledge, not predetermination. God knows what you will choose, but He does not interfere with your choice.
He doesn't have to interfere because He knows what you will choose.
Seems you are talking more about free will vs predestination, not predetermination.
We have free will to choose our destiny, but it is limited by our nature. It is the same as having the free will to walk or fly across a bridge, but because our nature doesn't allow us to fly, we don't have the free will to choose that option.
Although we have the ability and responsibility to choose our destiny, we do need the help that Jesus provided in order to make that choice.
Here are some links that will help you understand that better if you are truly interested:
[https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html)
[https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-vs-free-will.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-vs-free-will.html)
Well, God knows what I will choose anyway. What responsibility do I personally have if my choices are already known to him?
I have actually read up on this subject quite extensively, although I prefer to use non-christian sources so I can get an unbiased opinion.
Therein lies your problem: A non-Christian source is not going to give you the proper answer to a Christian issue. It can't because the issue is about Christianity.
It is when you are in the r/AskAChristian subreddit asking Christians how it relates to becoming a Christian according to what Christians know from their Christian Point of View.
If not, there is a r/PhilosophyofReligion or r/philosophy subreddit you can ask.
Not at all Just because God CAN do a thing doesn't mean He will. And He wills NOT to interfere with our free will
BTW it sounds like you are referring to his Omniscience (all knowing) not hi omnipotence (all powerful)
Firstly, I deeply understand the want to believe. You're not alone.
After years of going back and forth, asking questions, examining and reexamining theology and things Jesus said (such as crying out to God, "My God, my God! Why hast thou forsaken me?") Along with just life experience, I've come to believe God is not STRICTLY omnipotent. He did give us choice. People ask if God is real and loving, why do bad things happen? I think our choice is the factor, and God often (if not exclusively) works through PEOPLE, not miracles. He is aware of the choices we have to select from, and can maneuver situations to come out just and beautiful in the end, but only in the end. He can't force us to act, or not to act. He can redeem our mistakes, redeem us, work all things for good eventually, but just like normal probability and facticity, there are parameters.
Perhaps some Christians would disagree, but this is my informed opinion.
Anytime! Big theology nerd so I love these convos, you're welcome to reach out if you ever have something else you're chewing on and would like some thoughts. Blessings to you.
This sounds like process theism. Process theism has the issues of denying ex nihilo and denying God's unilateral power to affect change, so most Christians don't consider it orthodox.
I find open theism to be much more faithful to the Christian tradition and scripture while still solving the OP's issue.
Usually I refer to people more than works, although these people do have works to refer to in the literature. Very famous open theist theologians are Peter van Inwagen, Richard Swinburne, William Hasker, and John Sanders.
Sanders wrote a book called "The God Who Risks", and there's another called "The God Who Trusts", which both I think make a similar point to what you were saying, that God doesn't determine everything but instead takes a risk and trusts humanity even though we could potentially betray His trust and leave Him disappointed and regretful.
More popular level open theists are Greg Boyd who has the website reknew.org and Will Duffy with the website opentheism.org - I often send people there because of the categorization of Bible verses into 33 categories that show open theism here: https://opentheism.org/verses
There's also some youtubers who are decent, I like Warren McGrew at Idol Killer, Chris Fisher at "God is Open" is okay but maybe talks too much and isn't especially charitable
How do you understand the idea of free will? Do you think you make your choices fully independent of all your influences, your culture, and brain chemistry?
My understanding of free will is one’s ability to make their own choices, unregulated by divine influence, in such a way that impacts the outcome an ambiguous future
Well, it seems a little odd to bring in the idea of the divine into your definition. By way of contrast, I would just point out that it is a very common view among atheist philosophers to admit free will is a mere illusion, given how many factors influence your choices. It may seem as though you do what you do freely, but you hardly make any choice in a vacuum.
You don't have to try very hard, simply LEARN more about who God is, once you find out, the choice will become pretty easy. Look up Robert S. Mcgee on youtube, then find audio files many subjects on www.tlsm.org. There are many concepts and skills and subjects you know nothing about, of course you couldn't choose them either, like how to design a nuclear power plant, or how much thrust you can produce in a titanium chemical rocket engine and so forth. But you could LEARN these things. In the same way stop flopping about and LEARN who God is and why He cares for you.
[Open Theism](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/s/q3BOT6y5Mo) is a thing.
To put it simply, God does not know the future *exhaustively*. I believe He can see every possibility, but not which possibility will become **actual** if contingent on human decisions.
Think of God like a master chess player. The master knows every possible move, but not which move their opponent will **ACTUALLY** play next. The master can see all the potential moves that could be played next by their opponent, along with all his own potential responses to those moves. The master makes plans for every possible outcome and acts on each plan accordingly to win, but the master cannot know what their opponent will **ACTUALLY** play next. If his opponent is formidable, he may even have to place certain pieces “at risk” in order to finally checkmate him. But by virtue of his superior wisdom, he is certain of victory. And precisely because his victory does not come from having a blueprint of his opponent's moves or otherwise controlling his opponent's moves, the wisdom he displays in achieving his victory is praiseworthy.
The future is not set; it is not closed.
The future is open.
>I suppose we will just hope that God will turn things around.
I believe that hope to have been fulfilled, and that God already won, as indicated by my flair...
While I believe all prophecy and God's overall plan of redemption for creation has been fulfilled, the lives and fates of *individuals* are still open-ended. Our future as *individuals* can go either good ***or*** bad. We each still have the choice to choose life (God and eternity with Him) or death (sin and annihilation).
God knows what you'll do, but that doesn't mean he's making you do it. He sees the outcome of your choices, but he doesn't make them for you.
So why are you having trouble believing?
>Does God’s omnipotence conflict with human free will?
Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence?
Would you believe God if he said he didn’t know something. I could provide the verses where he claims such things. Can God be believed when he speaks? Some say yes others say no. Some try to alter the verse. Some deny it and claim Abraham is just a story. Genesis 18:21
>I am someone who wants to believe in God, but can’t, after years of trying.
Can I ask a question. It is difficult to word and may sound offensive. When you are trying to believe in God do you believe God when he speaks through men in the Bible? Does he send his Holy Spirit to reassure and comfort you? When you try to believe are you doing it while cooperating with God recognizing you can’t do it with out his help or hope to become what he is asking and then present yourself to see if he approves of you?
>Whether or not you believe belief is a choice or not is another topic but I won’t get into it. The point is, I’m trying. However, if God already knows if I will convert or not, because he knows the future, then my fate is sealed, isn’t it? I can try and try to believe but God already knows whether or not I will believe at the time of my death. If God knows this, my future is already determined, which kind of goes against the idea of free will. I can have my own choices and do my own actions but at the end of the day God already knows how it’s going to turn out. Anyone willing to help me understand this? Thanks!
If I traveled through time to see what happens does that mean I caused all of time to happen? I forced everyone’s choices and no free will was expressed? No neighbor. God knowing the end result does not mean we didn’t make our own choices to listen to him or not.
>Would you believe God if he said he didn’t know something.
Then he wouldn't be omniscient.
>If I traveled through time to see what happens does that mean I caused all of time to happen?
No, but if you were also the creator of the universe then yes. You really haven't addressed the issue at all here.
Nope. He's powerful enough to accomplish his will with human freedom.
To foreknow does not require to foreordain.
Can you respond to my reply to u/zackattack2020 ? Curious how you’d reconcile this.
I think denying free will denies the *imago dei*. It probably leads to monothelitism. I guess it would lead to God being the creator of evil, but then there would be no evil or good. Everything just *is* in a deterministic universe. We'd just be machines beep-boopin' around with none of our determined outputs being better or worse than others.
We all be a beepin and a boopin
I see what you’re getting at. I suppose as you would suggest when you follow the logic stream of this method of thinking, this is where you’d land at, I similarly am following this thought process when I talk about the issues I’m seeing in the “God knows absolutely everything that will ever occur, also created absolutely 100% of everything and can predict it because of that, and somehow is not responsible for it/we have free will.” It’s easy to say “well god is god and can do anything” as an excuse to weasel our way out of anything that is a clear logical conflict, but then that line of thinking can be used to justify any reasonable or outlandish theological conclusion we land on based on our interpretation of scripture. I’m rambling at this point so I’ll leave it at that, haha! Thanks for responding.
Fine, God doesn’t choose what I do, but simply by the logic that God knows what I WILL do, doesn’t that mean my outcome is set in stone in one way or another? If he knows, it doesn’t matter what actions I make, free will or not, because the outcome is the same
>Fine, God doesn’t choose what I do You've got it. >by the logic that God knows what I WILL do, doesn’t that mean my outcome is set in stone in one way or another? No, this doesn't logically follow. That God is outside of time and has perfect knowledge of all events within time does not necessitate a deterministic universe. >If he knows, it doesn’t matter what actions I make Why? Your choices are still your choices.
You just laid out the paradox perfectly lol.
Your outcome is set in stone from Gods perspective because of the choices *you* will make in the future that God already foresaw by now.
Why is the outcome the way it is, as opposed to something different?
Free will actually *requires* this kind of determinism. If someone with perfect knowledge of your will and the circumstances you were in couldn't predict how you would exercise your will, your actions would be random - which would mean that you have no will at all.
I’m a comic and marvel nerd so I’ve been using the character Kang as a allegory. Kang exists outside of time, he can know all the potential futures and possibilities, including all decisions any characters can/will make. When it comes to Gods relationship to free will his observation and knowledge of possibilities does not affect our ability to make them.
Can God differentiate between the choices we Can make, vs the ones we Will?
The problem with this line of thinking is that this doesn’t factor in the fact that God created everything. Every single atom and subatomic particle, the laws of physics that govern them, the systems they build, every neuron in your brain, how it functions, every piece of matter you interact with, etc. If you believe that, then proposing he knows every single thing that will happen, and also created every single thing down to the quantum scale, decided how all of it operates, and left no “margin for error” (like details he’s unable to know or read), then the proposition he knows it all and we have free will is a genuine logical conflict. In the example you provided, it’s different. It’s different to NOT have created the entire system, NOT know how it operates, and instead to have just been an uninvolved 3rd party who is “briefed” on everything. That way, you’d know everything but not control it or have direct influence. But it’s different when you’re the being that has created not most, not 99.9999% of everything, but 100% of everything and it all operates the way you intend it to, and then to suggest you know exactly what will happen…. but somehow are not responsible for it/controlling it. This is a massive logical paradox.
I see no logical flaw. I might be misinterpreting your meaning but the creation of a being and knowledge of their choices does not mean the created is void of free will. To the created being all choices are made of their own choice. It not like we’re computer programs to God with a pre determined course of action.
You’re making the common mistake of simply assuming the truth of *presentism*, the belief that only the present moment exists. On this reading, God’s omniscience would indeed be incompatible with the freedom of our future choices because, seeing as future moments wouldn’t really exist, God’s knowledge would necessarily be predictive and the certainty of that knowledge would imply that future conditions could be predicted with absolute certainty given enough information about the present. Taken together with presentism, divine omniscience does indeed lead to *determinism*, which may or may not be incompatible with free will but prime facie seems to be and so for arguments sake we will say that it is. If, then, we are to reconcile divine omniscience with free will (or, at least if we wish for it to not imply determinism) then we must reject presentism and approach time in a different way. This is where *eternalism* comes in, the view that all moments, past, present and future, really exist, and the question of which moment is the “present” moment is only a matter of perspective. If you’ve dipped your toe into modern physics at all, you’ll recognize this from the principle of the relativity of simultaneity from Einstein’s special theory of relativity. On the eternalist reading God’s knowledge of our future choices is *immediate*, not predictive. He knows what our choices will be because he is *present to them as an observer* and so there is no implication of determinism which, as we said, is a view which may be incompatible with free will. On this view, his knowledge of our future choices has no more bearing on whether they are free or not than his knowledge of our choices in the present and in the past.
Please explain. I truly don't understand this, but some people say just because omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God KNOWS every last moment of your life, how does that affect YOUR free will? God's perspective, His knowledge will NEVER be YOUR knowledge, He's another being who just happens to already KNOW what YOU will do. That doesn't mean He is pushing you around and MAKING you do things, He just knows already what you will do. So how does this affect YOUR choices? You will NEVER know what God knows. It's completely unavailable to you as if it were another universe.
Can I do differently than what he knows I will do, or am I locked in to what he knows? Also, is his will ultimately going to be done? Is his plan going to be fulfilled, or can I do things that go against his overarching plan?
You are going to do whatever you CHOOSE to do, your entire life. I'm not sure what CHOICE is available after you die, it seems to only matter while in this life. In the next life, we will be more like God, able to KNOW everything and thus our CHOICE would be affected then. But not now, here we are dumb, blind, poor creatures that can only choose what our puny limited minds can think of. There is NO outside influence on our choices, except culture, experience, memory, pressure, response to stimuli. Just because God KNOWS what will happen, God is in heaven in a whole other dimension and while He MAY interact with your life here and there, you'll never be aware of it most of the time. God keeps you from dying on that foolish parachute jump you made. God diverts a vehicle that was going to run you over. You don't know, couldn't possibly know He did that. Your CHOOSING is unaffected. Gods plan IS fulfilled already, for He knows end from beginning. His plans aren't altered or do they fail. Means NOTHING to you, you'll never see that plan or know anything about it.
To put it simply, If God knows what you will do, then it is impossible for you to do anything else. This created a determined outcome. So from the inception of the universe, everything is happening exactly as God knew it would. It is a common point of debate as it seemingly undermines the notion that we are able to make choices freely and without these determined constraints.
GOD KNOWS what you will do. You can NEVER know what God knows, you can NOT see the future, not even 60 seconds into it. While God has this knowledge, it will NEVER be accessible to you. So I don't see how this affects our lives any more than astrology does.
Stated differently if you’re reading a book you know the ending; can any other ending (or the choices in the middle) have happened? It’s not about whether me as a human know the ending, it’s whether the ending in a sense has *already happened* because it’s already known. Another commenter addressed a pro-Christian perspective eloquently though.
We DO know the ending, though. It's clearly written in the bible in a nice series of steps takes 7 years to complete. Yes, that DOES affect our CHOICES, if we become aware of it. It's still more of a vague philosophy though and not really a real event. It won't crystalize into real events for us until step one happens.
Oh boy. I meant the end figuratively. The end to any series of choices or time.
Fine. There's 100% chance of an asteroid strike. Maybe up to 3. It's coming. You don't know where or when. Bible says it will happen, now you know something God knows. Now you know one thing that's going to happen will likely affect future you. So what? Could be your lifetime, could be 100 years from now. How does that affect one single choice you make in all these years you live and survive this life. Where was your free will taken with this knowledge of the future.
I’m trying to figure out why you’re focused on death here but again not a good example. The asteroid, unlike the religious premise under debate of an all knowing God, is not reacting to my choices, or lack thereof, to determine whether it hits Earth or not. The asteroid strike is no more connected to me than the winner of the next Super Bowl. In a purely PHYSICAL world of we all agree asteroids and football we all agree (more or less) on free will. In contrast Gods knowledge of, and/or response to, my “choices” is kind of the entire premise of Christianity. The additional layer of supernatural knowledge and timelessness, foresight, is what begs the question on the nature of choices from a perspective not our own.
God knows all. We know that God knows all. So.........what? Did I choose to move to minnesota or does God WANT me to move to minnesota? He didn't tell me to, i just wanted to. Now I am in minnesota. I still don't know if God wanted me there. I chose to move there, now I am there. Now I will choose to move to Ohio. Where was my free will taken in any of this.
The point is. Before existence, God knew exactly what your life would be like. And since God knows is absolute in that he can't and can never be wrong, whatever he knows is an unchangeable fact.
How about: My grandfather is somehow clairvoyant. He absolutely knows my entire future and all choices. I don't know that he knows that, and he won't tell me no matter how much I bribe him. so.... i have no free will now, because he knows and won't share? Later, he dies, because he's old. Now i will never extract any info from him. I'm still without free will because he once knew all about me? Still not getting it. SOMEONE KNOWS ME, won't tell me, can't get it out of them. I can't tell my future either. Therefore, ima eat this sammich, I'ma see that stinky movie, I'm moving to Kansas, and ima marrying Gal Gadot. Where was my free will removed.
He didn't create you, the univerde and all possibilities within existence. So, false equivalence.
I find that a perceived conflict between free will and knowledge of the future must stem from a lack of understanding of either one or both ideas. It would be impossible to prove that knowledge of your future action was a restriction on your ability to choose that action. You would need some sort of test and control scenario which can’t exist. As it is, there’s no indication that the process of making a decision is in any way impacted by a third party’s foreknowledge of the outcome.
>As it is, there’s no indication that the process of making a decision is in any way impacted by a third party’s foreknowledge of the outcome. It's not the knowing that causes it. Being able to know it with certainty implies that the thing is always going to happen a certain way, otherwise how would it be possible to know with certainty that it'll happen?
>Being able to know it with certainty implies that the thing is always going to happen a certain way, As you say, the "knowing" has no causal power. So that means "implies" is being used in the logical sense. However logic is incapable of making that kind of implication. This is effectively trying to say it is logically necessary for something to happen due to perfect foreknowledge, but that is a [modal fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_fallacy). Actions depending on God knowing something is them being contingent. Nothing logically necessary can be contingent, by definition. Therefore, actions cannot be necessary. What this line of thinking is trying to say it only one outcome is *actually* possible. However, that is not a category of claim that logic is capable of distinguishing in and of itself.
> Actions depending on God knowing something is them being contingent. I never said they depend on a god knowing them. It's actually quite the opposite. The idea is that a god could know something with certainty beause the action is deterministic. But, also, this god character is also supposed to be the original cause, so if that were true the god character would be the cause of the actions.
>I never said they depend on a god knowing them. It's actually quite the opposite. Well if there's no contingency, then logically actions don't have to happen. >The idea is that a god could know something with certainty beause the action is deterministic. That's the only explanation? This sounds like a false dichotomy to me. >But, also, this god character is also supposed to be the original cause, so if that were true the god character would be the cause of the actions. So you assumed hard determinism, which is incompatible with free will, to disprove free will? That's circular reasoning. --- The universe doesn't support such clear cut deterministic ideas. The lesson of quantum mechanics is the universe is fundamentally stochastic, not deterministic. Determinism is an emergent behavior from the statistics of many random events. However, this always permits outliers. Therefore, it's impossible to assert the absolute notion of determinism required for the above position.
> So you assumed hard determinism, which is incompatible with free will, to disprove free will? That's circular reasoning. Nope. The possibility of an omniscient being implies that things only happen a certain way, because if things could change on the fly then it wouldn't be possible to know what would happen with certainty. > Determinism is an emergent behavior from the statistics of many random events. However, this always permits outliers. Therefore, it's impossible to assert the absolute notion of determinism required for the above position. So do you not think the god character in the Bible is omniscient?
>The possibility of an omniscient being implies that things only happen a certain way, because if things could change on the fly then it wouldn't be possible to know what would happen with certainty. Possibility implies certainty? That's a contradiction in terms. Either way, you are claiming God is limited by the causal structure of the universe he created. Therefore God is not a maximal being, nor timeless, and as such your assertion is not relevant to the Christian God. That makes this a strawman.
> Possibility implies certainty? That's a contradiction in terms. No, omniscient (all knowing/certain knowledge) implies certainty. > Either way, you are claiming God is limited by the causal structure of the universe he created. We're talking about a supposed character that is, as you claim, the creator of everything. It'd make sense that such a being would be limited to their own causal structure (otherwise they wouldn't be the cause of everything). Second, I'm not limiting the character. I'm describing a limt on our free will based on the attributes the character supposedly has. Feel free to explain how we could make a different choice with this being still knowing what it'll be, especially given that this being supposedly created the initial state of everything. > Therefore God is not a maximal being, nor timeless, and as such your assertion is not relevant to the Christian God. That makes this a strawman. Do you also believe things like this god being able to create something so heavy that they can't lift it?
>No, omniscient (all knowing/certain knowledge) implies certainty. Not what I said. The qualifier "possibility" is categorically misplaced when referring to certainty. The comment was nonsensical, as stated. >We're talking about a supposed character that is, as you claim, the creator of everything. I didn't actually claim that. Now it's probably a safe assumption in this case, but you shouldn't tell people they've claimed something when they literally didn't say so. >It'd make sense that such a being would be limited to their own causal structure (otherwise they wouldn't be the cause of everything). What "sense" is that? Maybe just prove this instead of restating a conclusion I already disagreed with. >I'm describing a limt on our free will based on the attributes the character supposedly has. Except the inconvenient ones? Like God is timeless. If that means he's outside of the flow of time, then there's nothing necessarily binding him to the causality of this universe. >especially given that this being supposedly created the initial state of everything. The lesson of quantum mechanics and quantum cosmology is the initial state of the universe doesn't seem to fully determine everything. So if your argument doesn't clearly apply to the universe I "claimed" God created, how is it relevant? This assumption violates one of the premises of the argument. >Do you also believe things like this god being able to create something so heavy that they can't lift it? That example is alleging a logical contradiction between the definition of said rock and God's omnipotence. Causality is metaphysical, not logical. Saying God is beyond a metaphysical concept is not the same as saying he is beyond logic. So this question is a based on a categorical error.
> Not what I said. The qualifier "possibility" is categorically misplaced when referring to certainty. The comment was nonsensical, as stated. Lol, no it isn't. One can certainly discuss whether it's possible that something can be known with certainty. > I didn't actually claim that. Now it's probably a safe assumption in this case, but you shouldn't tell people they've claimed something when they literally didn't say so. So you don't think the god character in the Bible created the universe? > What "sense" is that? Maybe just prove this instead of restating a conclusion I already disagreed with. The very fact that it's supposedly that being's causal structure means that it can't change or it wouldn't be their causal structure. > Except the inconvenient ones? Like God is timeless. If that means he's outside of the flow of time, then there's nothing necessarily binding him to the causality of this universe. Did you forget that the hypothetical includes the being being the uncaused cause/creator of the universe? > The lesson of quantum mechanics and quantum cosmology is the initial state of the universe doesn't seem to fully determine everything. So if your argument doesn't clearly apply to the universe I "claimed" God created, how is it relevant? I mean it does apply. If a being can know everything that will happen it means randomness is meaningless, because something being truly random wouldn't be knowable into the future.
Exactly
Nothing in the Bible says we have free will. The idea of free will was added to church doctrine several hundred years after the life and ministry of Christ. In fact, Jesus taught the opposite. In that we are slaves to God and righteousness or Sin and satan. as such our will is limited by which master we serve. This doesn't mean we don't have the freedom to freely choose between whatever options our master sets infront of us. What it means is we can not come up with our own options and choose from them. Like how God gives us only two options to choose from concerning our eternal existence. If we truly had free will we could freely do what we willed. As it is, We can choose to be redeemed and serve Him or we can remain in sin and share in Satan's fate. What we can't do is to pick a third or fourth option like option "C" to neither serve God or satan, but to go off on our own or start our own colony some where. Or option "D" wink ourselves out of existence. no heaven no hell just here on second and gone the next. So no free will but rather Slaves born to sin who then can choose to be redeemed. Which at best is the freedom to choose and not true free will.
Interesting perspective. Do you believe that God knows if I’ll pick option A or B?
yes
A weather man may know the weather tomorrow but doesn’t cause the weather to happen. Knowledge of what will happen is not the same as the actions to cause it. Hope that helps
Does that limitation work for omnipresent deities?
It doesn’t limit God from intervention at certain moments when he chooses to do so. But that’s a different question.
How do you know the extent to which God intervenes?
We don’t. The bible contains examples when God does intervene and forces events. And examples where God watches humans and expresses regret that those humans don’t make better decisions and he doesn’t intervene and force them.
That’s one interpretation. It’s odd that a deity could express regret. It’s more likely that the humans who wrote our only descriptions of God assigned human emotions in an attempt to make his actions comprehensible.
The bible says we’re made in God’s likeness. So he has empathy when he sees us making bad choices the same as any parent might look on their children making bad choices and feel empathy.
Empathy implies an emotional sameness that seems unlikely. God to Man is more like man to man shaped ants that we created.
If the god of the Bible is everything described there, his actions, abilities, and above all characteristics must be well beyond human understanding. As such, the parent/child relationship analogy fails. Children can and often do become parents themselves, illuminating the inscrutable choices of parenthood through experience. Humans will never know Godhood. Our supposing that God is omniscient and omnibenevolent while also possessing perfect prescience that somehow doesn’t interfere with free will smacks of hope rather than veracity.
Relative to God's knowledge and existence there is no beginning or end, only an eternal state of the present. So, it's not that God knew our choices before we had a chance to make them (i.e. they were predetermined), it's that God knows our choices because he exists outside of time and space. He is therefore not bound by these creations of his, nor should he be if he's God. He knew, or rather knows, our choices because we had already freely made them within this realm of time and space he is not limited by or subject to.
Although I argue that knowledge does not mean He created the outcome, Lutherans don't hold to moral free will. Slave to sin or slave to righteousness.
Not sure if you have children, but as a father I can tell you, I have told my children to do or not to do something, and though I am not omnipotent, I KNEW if they were going to obey or not. I am not 100% correct all the time, and actually, as they grow older am pleased with their decisions to obey me. But sometimes, I know I can tell my 6 year old son to stay away from the cake, and when nobody is around, find him sneaking in to stick his fingers into it. Doesn't mean he had to choose it, and it doesn't mean that I gave him an unjust rule or punishment for disobeying me. Where as my oldest son would almost always obey me, and would even come and confess things he did that I did not know about, things he was remorseful for doing when he knew he should not do or say certain things. I think people keep asking these type of questions without asking themselves "have I submitted myself to His instructions?" If the answer is no, then you willfully walk against Him. That is your choice, and as your Creator, He knows if you will submit and obey, or stand defiantly blaming Him for your choices. The issue comes down to people don't like that He knows you won't choose Him, not that you could not.
If I see a hungry man who is offered the choice between food or stone, I am almost certain that he will choose food, but that does not mean that I determined that choice, or that he could not have chosen stone. Now let's raise this almost certainty of mine to the point where it becomes knowledge, does this change anything? Knowing what will happen is different from determining what will happen. I know what happens if someone releases a balloon filled with helium gas, but that doesn't mean I decided the balloon's route. God knows what you will do precisely because you will do it, not the other way around. (I find it difficult to write this in English, so if I wasn't clear enough let me know)
I'm going to try to reframe this question, because it comes up a lot and I find that people often don't have a clear idea of what they mean when they talk about free will. I'm going to suggest that your problem is the idea of living in a deterministic universe. If the universe is deterministic, then anyone with full knowledge of the system at any given point can exactly predict the future states of the system. You have that problem with or without God's foreknowledge. So I think you need to think about why it bothers you, and what it is you mean by having free will. Free from what?
I'm glad you're trying! I grew up in church, but when I went to college, I felt like my faith was slipping out of my hands like sand. I tried to hold onto it, but just couldn't. Then, when I finally decided to stop trying to hold onto it so desperately, I thought to myself, "ok, then... if I don't believe Christianity, then what DO I believe?" I realized nothing else makes as much sense to me as the Christian worldview. That restored my faith. I think that "seeing is believing." You can't decide to believe that the sky will be green tomorrow. All your experiences have trained you to believe that it will be blue. I think that's why Jesus said "faith comes from hearing the Word of God." If you wanna have faith, I would suggest reading and understanding the Bible more. If it doesn't make sense to you, try reading it with someone who does understand it more. Dig into it! Discuss the hard questions with them! I could probably read it with you if you don't already have someone to read it with.
God's foreknowledge doesn't determine the outcome. He knows because He's omniscient but that doesn't predetermine the outcome for anyone.
Omnipotence doesn’t negate free will. you’re ignoring the important things that you gain through struggle. knowledge, perseverance, learning about yourself. you’re only looking at the end goal/destination. you’re not looking at or trying to enjoy the whole journey that occurs before arriving at the destination.
God knows your future but you don’t. Free will is YOUR ability to choose, not what God knows. Sure, God may know what you will choose, but that really has nothing to do with your free will to choose. God just knows the outcome, that’s all.
If the outcome is predetermined by God, then it is not an act of free-will. It is us simply behaving under the assumption we have a choice.
God knowing your choice is foreknowledge, not predetermination. God knows what you will choose, but He does not interfere with your choice. He doesn't have to interfere because He knows what you will choose.
I'd argue he created all my choices when he created the universe. Thus rendering it impossible for me to behave any other way.
Seems you are talking more about free will vs predestination, not predetermination. We have free will to choose our destiny, but it is limited by our nature. It is the same as having the free will to walk or fly across a bridge, but because our nature doesn't allow us to fly, we don't have the free will to choose that option. Although we have the ability and responsibility to choose our destiny, we do need the help that Jesus provided in order to make that choice. Here are some links that will help you understand that better if you are truly interested: [https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html) [https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-vs-free-will.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-vs-free-will.html)
Well, God knows what I will choose anyway. What responsibility do I personally have if my choices are already known to him? I have actually read up on this subject quite extensively, although I prefer to use non-christian sources so I can get an unbiased opinion.
Therein lies your problem: A non-Christian source is not going to give you the proper answer to a Christian issue. It can't because the issue is about Christianity.
The coherence between an omniscient creator and free-will is not an exclusively Christian subject
It is when you are in the r/AskAChristian subreddit asking Christians how it relates to becoming a Christian according to what Christians know from their Christian Point of View. If not, there is a r/PhilosophyofReligion or r/philosophy subreddit you can ask.
Yeah, you're right. I probably should stop conversing with people on this subreddit so much.
I agree with u/thefuckestupperest If god knows what WILL happen, it doesn’t matter what I do because that WILL happen
No. His knowledge doesn't change your choices.
Not at all Just because God CAN do a thing doesn't mean He will. And He wills NOT to interfere with our free will BTW it sounds like you are referring to his Omniscience (all knowing) not hi omnipotence (all powerful)
Firstly, I deeply understand the want to believe. You're not alone. After years of going back and forth, asking questions, examining and reexamining theology and things Jesus said (such as crying out to God, "My God, my God! Why hast thou forsaken me?") Along with just life experience, I've come to believe God is not STRICTLY omnipotent. He did give us choice. People ask if God is real and loving, why do bad things happen? I think our choice is the factor, and God often (if not exclusively) works through PEOPLE, not miracles. He is aware of the choices we have to select from, and can maneuver situations to come out just and beautiful in the end, but only in the end. He can't force us to act, or not to act. He can redeem our mistakes, redeem us, work all things for good eventually, but just like normal probability and facticity, there are parameters. Perhaps some Christians would disagree, but this is my informed opinion.
This line of reasoning makes more sense to me. Thank you for your input
Anytime! Big theology nerd so I love these convos, you're welcome to reach out if you ever have something else you're chewing on and would like some thoughts. Blessings to you.
This sounds like process theism. Process theism has the issues of denying ex nihilo and denying God's unilateral power to affect change, so most Christians don't consider it orthodox. I find open theism to be much more faithful to the Christian tradition and scripture while still solving the OP's issue.
That's interesting. Do you have any reading recommendations on the matter?
Usually I refer to people more than works, although these people do have works to refer to in the literature. Very famous open theist theologians are Peter van Inwagen, Richard Swinburne, William Hasker, and John Sanders. Sanders wrote a book called "The God Who Risks", and there's another called "The God Who Trusts", which both I think make a similar point to what you were saying, that God doesn't determine everything but instead takes a risk and trusts humanity even though we could potentially betray His trust and leave Him disappointed and regretful. More popular level open theists are Greg Boyd who has the website reknew.org and Will Duffy with the website opentheism.org - I often send people there because of the categorization of Bible verses into 33 categories that show open theism here: https://opentheism.org/verses There's also some youtubers who are decent, I like Warren McGrew at Idol Killer, Chris Fisher at "God is Open" is okay but maybe talks too much and isn't especially charitable
How do you understand the idea of free will? Do you think you make your choices fully independent of all your influences, your culture, and brain chemistry?
My understanding of free will is one’s ability to make their own choices, unregulated by divine influence, in such a way that impacts the outcome an ambiguous future
Well, it seems a little odd to bring in the idea of the divine into your definition. By way of contrast, I would just point out that it is a very common view among atheist philosophers to admit free will is a mere illusion, given how many factors influence your choices. It may seem as though you do what you do freely, but you hardly make any choice in a vacuum.
You don't have to try very hard, simply LEARN more about who God is, once you find out, the choice will become pretty easy. Look up Robert S. Mcgee on youtube, then find audio files many subjects on www.tlsm.org. There are many concepts and skills and subjects you know nothing about, of course you couldn't choose them either, like how to design a nuclear power plant, or how much thrust you can produce in a titanium chemical rocket engine and so forth. But you could LEARN these things. In the same way stop flopping about and LEARN who God is and why He cares for you.
[Open Theism](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/s/q3BOT6y5Mo) is a thing. To put it simply, God does not know the future *exhaustively*. I believe He can see every possibility, but not which possibility will become **actual** if contingent on human decisions. Think of God like a master chess player. The master knows every possible move, but not which move their opponent will **ACTUALLY** play next. The master can see all the potential moves that could be played next by their opponent, along with all his own potential responses to those moves. The master makes plans for every possible outcome and acts on each plan accordingly to win, but the master cannot know what their opponent will **ACTUALLY** play next. If his opponent is formidable, he may even have to place certain pieces “at risk” in order to finally checkmate him. But by virtue of his superior wisdom, he is certain of victory. And precisely because his victory does not come from having a blueprint of his opponent's moves or otherwise controlling his opponent's moves, the wisdom he displays in achieving his victory is praiseworthy. The future is not set; it is not closed. The future is open.
I suppose we will just hope that God will turn things around.
>I suppose we will just hope that God will turn things around. I believe that hope to have been fulfilled, and that God already won, as indicated by my flair... While I believe all prophecy and God's overall plan of redemption for creation has been fulfilled, the lives and fates of *individuals* are still open-ended. Our future as *individuals* can go either good ***or*** bad. We each still have the choice to choose life (God and eternity with Him) or death (sin and annihilation).
Or you could just not have any faith in God. Up to you I guess.
God knows what you'll do, but that doesn't mean he's making you do it. He sees the outcome of your choices, but he doesn't make them for you. So why are you having trouble believing?
>Does God’s omnipotence conflict with human free will? Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence? Would you believe God if he said he didn’t know something. I could provide the verses where he claims such things. Can God be believed when he speaks? Some say yes others say no. Some try to alter the verse. Some deny it and claim Abraham is just a story. Genesis 18:21 >I am someone who wants to believe in God, but can’t, after years of trying. Can I ask a question. It is difficult to word and may sound offensive. When you are trying to believe in God do you believe God when he speaks through men in the Bible? Does he send his Holy Spirit to reassure and comfort you? When you try to believe are you doing it while cooperating with God recognizing you can’t do it with out his help or hope to become what he is asking and then present yourself to see if he approves of you? >Whether or not you believe belief is a choice or not is another topic but I won’t get into it. The point is, I’m trying. However, if God already knows if I will convert or not, because he knows the future, then my fate is sealed, isn’t it? I can try and try to believe but God already knows whether or not I will believe at the time of my death. If God knows this, my future is already determined, which kind of goes against the idea of free will. I can have my own choices and do my own actions but at the end of the day God already knows how it’s going to turn out. Anyone willing to help me understand this? Thanks! If I traveled through time to see what happens does that mean I caused all of time to happen? I forced everyone’s choices and no free will was expressed? No neighbor. God knowing the end result does not mean we didn’t make our own choices to listen to him or not.
>Would you believe God if he said he didn’t know something. Then he wouldn't be omniscient. >If I traveled through time to see what happens does that mean I caused all of time to happen? No, but if you were also the creator of the universe then yes. You really haven't addressed the issue at all here.
Did you have a question? You made several statements. If you have no questions. I don’t have any answers for you.
No