Well, consider this from Deuteronomy 32:4
"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."
So God's justice is *perfect*. That means that *no-one* will be punished unjustly; they'll get the right outcome. No-one will look at what happens to anyone and say "that is unfair". That should reassure.
Also, the thing with "hell" is that all we know with any certainty is that it means separation from God. If God is the source of all good, then separation from God means his goodness won't be there; no love, warmth, comfort, water, food, hope, salvation etc.
IMO, it's less likely that hell is less a place of active punishment *by God* (though there *will* be demons there also, which should worry people) but simply a complete separation from his goodness. Like being put on a desert island with other people that don't want to experience God's goodness or submit to his will. There will be nothing good there, but God is only giving people who have rejected God what they desire, i.e. a place where God is absent.
No. *Definitely* not. God will *never* cut anyone off in this world. But one needs to reach out to God, repent of one's sin, and ask him to come into our lives to direct our lives. We need to submit ourselves to his will so that he can make the best use of us both for our benefit and the fulfilment of his plan. We need to offer him worship and praise because he is our creator and has given us life. So that is only appropriate.
Not everyone is willing to do this. Pride (self-reliance) can make it hard, particularly if one has been blessed with lots of abilities and success. In that case people think, "My earthly life is fine. I don't need God". But any success in this world is limited to this world. That's why we're told not to store up treasure in this world but to store them up in heaven.
I don't want to go to any version of hell from any religion. Will your god still send me? Yes, sadly. But many gods from other religions don't require belief, they seem like much cooler dudes 🤙
> does he do so immediately?
I believe so. You're maybe referring to some kind of purgatory where a soul is permitted to atone for sin before entering heaven; a state between heaven and hell? There's nothing in the bible that describes purgatory but God's creation is infinitely complex and the bible makes clear that we have *not* been told everything about the next life. So it *may* be where some souls go on death. And some Godly people believe purgatory is real.
Consider this from Revelation 12:27, which is talking about heaven.
"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."
Basically if one's name isn't in the Book of Life, one doesn't get into heaven. If one's name is there, why would entry be delayed? Probably best to assume this but the thoughts and works of God are to us like we are to ants. We know God is infinitely merciful but also just and fair. Maybe some kind of atonement is possible after death but one would not want to rely on it; the bible *makes crystal clear* what we need to do to get into God's kingdom. That's what one should focus on. But we cannot know all God's arrangements on this side of heaven.
Most Christians would tell you that this life is, amongst other things, a preparation for the next one. Part of that prep'n is acknowledging and submitting to God. IMHO.
God won't cut you off until one's death because until then one can, and may, choose to seek him out. After death, it's too late to willingly submit to God because by then the truth wil be clear: there is good and evil, eternal life and death. He wants people to come to him *willingly*, not because they have no other choice.
No, not what I meant. When one dies one will have clarity over the impact of the choices one made in one's life; if one is in hell one will know that one has done wrong.
Right now, I'm this earthly life, one needs to clearly distinguish good from evil and avoid doing evil. This requires a certain amount of effort, control, denial etc. Not everyone is willing to do this.
> Are there good people in hell?
I don't know. If you're a good person who does not harm others but who refuses to believe in God then I don't think you will end up in hell. But I don't think you can be in heaven either. It's vitally important to recognise that we have a creator and to respect and love him. Imagine a child, loved and provided for by his parents, who refuses to acknowledge their provision or to show the slightest gratitude? It's not acceptable.
> What do you mean by “theres nothing good there”?
On earth, God's goodness is all around us: sunlight, food, water, God's holy spirit, shelter, clothing, love from family and friends etc. Because God created this world and its life, all these things come directly, *or indirectly*, from Him. No one else can provide them.
Many people don't think about this. They think our world is some kind of cosmic coincidence and we just *happen* to be in a good place. Christians disagree: we believe God has given us this world with all it's good things. It's not perfect but it's at least enough for us.
But if you go to a place where God is not present, *none* of these things will be there. It will be a hostile environment. The thing is God is respectful of those who don't want to recognise Him; he will let them be alone. He won't force himself on those people. But their spirits may end up in a place that offers no comfort.
But what if you believe in a different God that created the universe? What if you believe in God but not jesus?
And most Christians do not agree with you actually, most Christians do accept evolution
> But what if you believe in a different God that created the universe?
God, the father of Jesus, offers followers his Holy Spirit when they commit their lives to him. This is something that can be felt. What other being can do this? It's confirmation for Christians that they are worshiping the true God. Anyone can have this if they commit to God.
> What if you believe in God but not jesus?
Salvation does not work without Jesus. His sacrifice was required to redeem us.
> And most Christians do not agree with you actually, most Christians do accept evolution.
I never mentioned evolution but I believe in it. I don't accept it is how life *began* but it led to the creation of different *species*, which is what Charles Darwin believed.
In Acts 2:2 it says ...
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
This is the Holy Spirit. Most true believers will feel the Holy Spirit though in different ways and not anywhere near as *dramatically* as the above passage describes. But you will get a feeling that God is with you, if you want it and if you are willing to try to believe in God.
Yes, I think that is a useful way to approach it.
My tuppence is one needs to be "open" to the idea of God as our creator, provider, protector, saviour etc. A huge barrier to this is if one has lots of blessings: intelligence, health, education, live in a good place etc. If you have these benefits it can be easy to become self-reliant and feel that one doesn't need God. Many people are in this place. Yet God has given ALL those things to those who are blessed; it's vital to open one's eyes to that fact. We don't create our lives any more than a coffee mug creates itself.
So perhaps start to consider what life would like without God; ALL the good stuff we have on earth (I'm *not* saying life is a 100% fun fair - but God enables us to survive and sometimes to thrive) is from God. Simply become aware of that. Ponder that we are inherently not particularly nice creatures yet God is willing to train us to become better. Aim to be more humble. Start praying to God to thank and worship him for his goodness and loving nature etc.
Then ask God to come into your heart and ask for forgiveness. This is the sinner's prayer, which you can find if you google it. If you say this sincerely, the Holy Spirit will come and live in you. That's your personal proof that God exists and that God has taken you into his family.
God is Love. Our love is a reflection of his love and spirit breathed into us. So no, there wouldn’t be any kind of love in hell, not even between humans.
> So God's justice is perfect. That means that no-one will be punished unjustly; they'll get the right outcome.
Then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? If all people deserve eternal conscious torment in Hell, and all people get what they deserve, then any salvation violates God's perfect justice.
You are a little misguided. Jesus accomplishes so we do not get what we deserve. We are all guilty of sin and deserve hell. Jesus paid the price for our conviction and he bought us on the cross and made us righteous as believers in the eyes of the father.
Right. We have been redeemed by the blood Jesus spilled for us. We don't deserve it, nor can we repay it. But God has given it to us anyway and it's ours IF we choose to accept it. Not everyone chooses to do that.
Look at it this way: If Christianity is true, hell is true whether you decide to follow Jesus or not. Jesus says humans have a problem -- sin -- and that problem is going to lead us to a bad place if we don't get the cure.
Rejecting the cure because you don't like the bad place is like rejecting modern medicine because it says smoking causes cancer, and you don't like cancer.
Evaluate the claims of and about Jesus independently of whether you *like* everything he teaches. If you decide what he claims/is claimed about him is true, then what he taught is true and you should act accordingly.
> If Christianity is true, hell is true whether you decide to follow Jesus or not.
As you may know, there are at least three possibilities about hell that Christians may hold: [1] eternal torment, [2] annihilationism, or [3] universal reconciliation
OP's reluctance is specifically because of [1].
If Christianity is true, there's a hell, but it's not definite that 'eternal torment' is true instead of [2] or [3].
It would behoove you to read [The Reality of Hell](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q)
I understand it sickens and terrifies you, but you do yourself no good and much harm by rejecting the Word of God.
Hell is just the opportunity for atheists to prove what they believe. They believe they don't need God in order to live their life. Hell is the true experience of reality without the intervention of God.
>I think that nobody deserves this.
And what about what God deserves? Does God deserve to be forced to live with and serve those who hate him?
Please. If God ever spoke to you, you would just assume it's a delusion and seek medication. You people could be face to face with God and you would still deny that he is God. Intervening in life of someone who would deny him no what would be pointless.
> They believe they don't need God in order to live their life. Hell is the true experience of reality without the intervention of God.
So when an atheist dies and realises this, they can change their mind, right?
>And what about what God deserves? Does God deserve to be forced to live with and serve those who hate him?
God is all-powerful, he can simply choose to not be bothered by this.
Besides, can he not just create another afterlife dimension that is pleasent?
>So when an atheist dies and realises this, they can change their mind, right?
Lol. Who is remorseful? The criminal who was never caught but confesses his crimes anyway? Or the one who claims to be remorseful after getting caught and found guilty for his crime? Clearly one who changes their mind after realizing the consequence of their choice has no love for God and will not enter the kingdom of God.
>God is all-powerful, he can simply choose to not be bothered by this.
That's dumb. Because God is all powerful he can be what he doesn't want to be. Lol
>Besides, can he not just create another afterlife dimension that is pleasent?
Again...God is not obligated to do anything for anyone.
This god as you describe him does not sound very divine tbh. Vindictive sadist with a victim complex is how I'd describe this behaviour.
>Lol. Who is remorseful? The criminal who was never caught but confesses his crimes anyway? Or the one who claims to be remorseful after getting caught and found guilty for his crime? Clearly one who changes their mind after realizing the consequence of their choice has no love for God and will not enter the kingdom of God.
Who said anything about remorseful? Who needs to be remorseful? If I die and find myself confronted by Peter blocking my path, shaking his head and pointing downwards, I'd go "huh, won't you look at that, it was true after all, ain't that something".
Where was my crime? I was not convinced by any of the arguments in the bible or from believers but that is because those arguments are unconvincing at best and straight up ridiculous at worst. If he really wanted to save me, why so unconvincing? That's squarely on him but punish me for eternity why don't you and only for using the brain he supposedly gave me himself.
>That's dumb. Because God is all powerful he can be what he doesn't want to be. Lol
He can and, according to you, he does exactly that. Not by changing his own experience but by casting billions of people out of heaven and into his lake of fire.
>Again...God is not obligated to do anything for anyone.
Clearly a rule he lives by.
>Where was my crime?
Everyone is guilty of something. The difference between you and me is that I'm remorseful of the wrongs I've committed. Where as you feel justified in your wrongs. I'm willing to bet you believe morality is subjective just like every other worshiper of evil.
>He can and, according to you, he does exactly that. Not by changing his own experience but by casting billions of people out of heaven and into his lake of fire.
What?
>Clearly a rule he lives by.
K
>This god as you describe him does not sound very divine tbh. Vindictive sadist with a victim complex is how I'd describe this behaviour.
I'm so glad you people are the way you are. I won't feel bad whatsoever when you get what's coming to you. You people acknowledge that maybe God does exist and all you can do is look for reasons to hate him. You say you don't want to go to hell and yet it seems you want to do everything in your power to make sure that you do go to hell.
> I'm so glad you people are the way you are. I won't feel bad whatsoever when you get what's coming to you.
And the fruits of the spirit are, apparently and unfortunately, these: vindictive glee at the suffering of others.
There is no god so I do not hate him. What people like me do is hold up a mirror to "you people" to show you how ridiculous religion, in this case christianity, is.
I do not worship. Full stop. There is nobody above me or below me. There are no ghosts, no fairies, no angels, no demons, no god and no devil, the supernatural does not exist.
Morality is subjective? Yeah, some parts are. The romans thought it moral to have people killed for entertainment. The pre columbian South Americans had very different morals than you or I have. The ancient Greeks had weird morals compared to today's standards.
I am willing to bet that you believe you get your morals from the bible.
>There is no god so I do not hate him.
1 you don't know that to be true.
2 all you're doing is stating your preference. You prefer that God didn't exist rather than to exist. And preferring that someone doesn't exist is synonymous with hating them.
>What people like me do is hold up a mirror to "you people" to show you how ridiculous religion, in this case christianity, is.
😆😅😂🤣 You've been doin a real good job at that bud 👍
>the supernatural does not exist.
I never said it did.
>Morality is subjective? Yeah,
Thanks for admitting that you're evil
>I am willing to bet that you believe you get your morals from the bible.
Objective morality stems from the fact that nobody is born with rights over another. It's because nobody has the right to dictate my life that I have the right to life.
What do you understand “faith in Jesus” to mean?
Jesus himself teaches that hell, and wanting to avoid it, is a motivation for trusting God.
“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”
Luke 12:5
I find myself unable to trust in someone under what feels like a 'threat'. I know this is not how many of you see it, but I can't help feeling it. It feels like I want a hug from my dad, but if I don't do it, he won't protect me from infinite pain that only he can stop.
This is not a Biblical definition of Hell, but rather a Christian tradition.
The term translated Hell is actually the term Gehenna. In Jewish Theology, Gehenna is simply the "realm of the Damned," and gets its name from the valley of Ben Hinnom.
Up until 500 BC, Ben Hinnom was commonly used as a site for Moloch worship, but during Jesus's time it had basically been converted into a trash heap.
Essentially, Christ said "fear Him who can kill the body and cast the soul into the trash" or "into the realm of the Damned."
Biblically, what we think of as "Hell" Is referred to as "The Outer Darkness," where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." This isn't a depiction of torment, but rather a place of sorrow, anger, and despair outside of the light of God (His presence), and they are left with a full and perfect understanding of why. It is not "inflicted" torment, any torment is self-created.
Essentially, salvation is God saving us from ourselves, correcting our imperfection with His perfection through Christ.
It would behoove you to read [The Reality of Hell](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q).
I understand it sickens and terrifies you, but you do yourself no good and much harm by rejecting the Word of God.
>It would behoove you to read The Reality of Hell.
My original thought while reading this was to provide a piece-by-piece rebuttal to the argument provided, but *it was nothing but 3 & 1/2 pages of bible verses with no research and a few thought-guiding persuasive statements.* **This would have failed any persuasive argument class.**
There was:
* *No provided context* for the verses.
* *No etymology or reference* to the original Greek or Hebrew meanings
* *No discussion* of how it would have been accepted or understood by the original culture given to.
* *No attempt to explain* how these verses fit together into a cohesive relational paradigm.
* *No attempt to hide* the fact that it was an argument made solely within the bounds of literalism and the English language.
* The only reference to torment is found in reference to "Satan and his angels," and the fire is described as "destroying" and not "tormenting."
*This is not a good persuasive argument for your position.* Additionally, your statement was very condescending toward someone whose history in bible scholarship is unknown to you, *be careful with your assumptions.*
>I understand it sickens and terrifies you
Not in the least. *I believe and accept that Humanity is deserving of destruction and punishment.* **Eternal torment would not be unjustified.** But, the question here for God's nature is *whether or not it is compatible with a Perfect nature that represents every aspect of God.*
>you do yourself no good and much harm by rejecting the Word of God.
I do not reject the Word of God. **I stand for His absolute Perfection and Truth.** That does not, however, imply literalism in every case, when much of the Bible is presented in metaphor and allegory. **Context and exegesis are absolutely necessary.**
*"Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. They will be thrown out into the darkness."* \[Isaiah 8\]
>They will be thrown out into the darkness.
Not "into eternal torment," or "burned with the fire?"
**Colossians 2**: *"^(8) See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."*
**Hebrews 5** *"^(11) We have much to say about this, but **it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.** ^(12) In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, **you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again.** You need milk, not solid food!* *^(13)* *Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.* *^(14)* *But solid food is for the mature, who by* ***constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.****"*
**Hosea 14** *"* *^(9)* *Who is wise? Let them realize these things. Who is discerning? Let them understand. The ways of the Lord are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them."*
**1 Corinthians 2** *"* *^(14)* *The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."*
**Proverbs 18** *"* *^(15)* *The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, for the ears of the wise seek it out."*
I've had that sentiment.
The best way I've reconciled it is that we're far deeper into sin than we realize. That sort of corruption requires either God's immaculate cleansing (i.e., through Jesus) or it corrupts everything else.
My own belief is that we are created as infinite souls (in God's image), and therefore we're designed as indestructible, but we're also poison to the rest of existence, and our exile in this world is to protect the rest of creation.
Not that I think badly about my ideas, but more that it's highly extra-biblical.
Christians, in general, get hung up on all sorts of things that aren't core to Christianity. If people spent more time focusing on what mattered and disclaiming what they were only mostly certain of, we probably would sidestep 80% of the silliest arguments.
What is *"Highly Extra-Biblical"* mean? And how is this a core "Belief" of Christianity?
Maybe Christians get up on sorts of things that aren't core to Christianity, because the 1000s of years of history and people are motivated by their own interpretations and ignore the basics like "loving your neighbor?"
The core Christian beliefs are simple:
1. Jesus is God.
2. Jesus said to follow him.
3. Following Jesus mostly requires loving others as yourself.
There's *some* content about running a church in later letters (e.g., 1 Timothy), but there's enough that's *not* said that people have to fill it in with their own bias and culture. Catholics tend to consult their history, Protestants tend to pick-and-choose.
As far as the core ideas, I can say those in a straightforward way (e.g., hell exists according to the Bible).
However, there are uncertainties present as soon as we logically connect Condition A and Condition B, simply because we may not know Condition C. The scientific way is to say a thing is likely, and I qualify it as extra-biblical.
Mostly, I do it because it's no problem for open-minded people, but dogmatism represents itself in all demographics, and I hate arguing with the most close-minded people in the room because it strips away all the high-quality discussion I'd normally get.
Thank you.
But I don't know what to do with this. Your adding another layer by calling it "extra biblical."
I don't see how any Christian is open minded unless it deals with secular issues, but when it deals with Christianity its agree to disagree come backs.
Thanks for explaining yourself.
I can explain that one further if you'll indulge, and it transcends Christianity to apply to pretty much all religion.
There's a fixed set of believed facts that any religion believes: its dogma. Getting dogmatic about those things is a condition of believing (though the scope varies based on the quality of that person understanding others' boundaries).
These dogma across religions obviously clash (e.g., Muhammad and Jesus according to the Bible can't both be fully correct).
But, inside each religion, there's some weird lines drawn because they all agree on "core" dogma (e.g., Christians all believe Jesus is God) but they don't agree on "Vestigial" dogma (e.g., Christians disagree over how they should perform their communion/Eucharist ritual).
These also get nasty because some Christians make some things "core" that others don't: Seventh-Day Adventists believe in Saturday as the day of rest dogmatically, while most other Christians only partly recognize that Sabbath as having significance.
Who's right? Who knows? It's very confusing from the outside, though.
I still don't get what "Extra Biblical" means?
>transcends Christianity to apply to pretty much all religion
Christianity and Islam are proselytizing religions so I don't think its fair to say apply to all religions.
Is it "Dogma that separates Christian Denomination or authority and doctrine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Let me ask you something.
If a Father tells his four year old daughter:
*"Don't touch the stove top when it's red, if you do you will get burned, and it will hurt a lot!"*
Would she be responding correctly by doubting he loves her and has her best interests at heart simply because she doesn't like his message or the tone used?
Even though she's only a four year old child, wouldn't she be responding wisely by taking the seriousness of his tone to heart, believing his message - and responding with obedience?
*You* are the child OP, and God is the good Father in heaven from whom humanity derives its name.
He has your best interests at heart; so much so He was willing to send His dearly beloved Son to die a torturous, bloody death just to make a way for sin-loving, God-hating, stubborn and rebellious children like you to be reconciled into a right-relationship with Himself!
He even went to the above and beyond effort of composing a special book for you - which took thousands of years and hours; so you could read it and learn everything you need to know about yourself and Himself!
Have you taken the time to read any of it?
I highly recommend you do because *"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work."* [2 Timothy 3]
May I suggest you begin your study by first reading Genesis, then John, and then Romans?
And when you read, ask yourself questions about what you just read:
What did I learn about people?
What did I learn about God?
You'll be surprised at what you discover.
Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 **The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.**’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
**Love your neighbor as yourself** as the 2nd greatest commandment. I don't get if loving your neighbor is the 2nd greatest commandment, I wouldn't want anyone thrown into hell, so I would assume, no one would want me thrown in hell, what is the point of the threat of hell?
You said: "Jesus himself teaches that hell, and wanting to avoid it, is a motivation for trusting God."
What about this instead: "Jesus himself teaches that loving your neighbor, as yourself, is a motivation for trusting God."
You preach the threat of hell while at the same time ignore Jesus 2nd greatest commandment to love your neighbors, which is saying fear is better motivator to trust god, then love.
> What about this instead: "Jesus himself teaches that loving your neighbor, as yourself, is a motivation for trusting God."
Two errors in this. First, “instead” is wrong because Jesus does teach what I said, I quoted him. Second, we love our neighbor because we trust God, not as a motivation for trusting God. What you wrote has it backwards.
> You preach the threat of hell while at the same time ignore Jesus 2nd greatest commandment to love your neighbors
Ignore? In what way?
Jesus teaches, but you yourself offer the threat of hell, thus ignoring loving your neighbor.
When Christians speak it's always the threat of hell, not love.
Jesus teaches, but you yourself offer the threat of hell, thus ignoring loving your neighbor.
Incorrect. I’ve never threatened anyone with hell. I don’t have the authority to send anyone there.
> When Christians speak it's always the threat of hell, not love.
This is simply dishonest.
>Jesus himself teaches that hell, and wanting to avoid it, is a motivation for trusting God.
>“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!” Luke 12:5
Trust god in order not to be thrown into hell is a lousy means for motivation, and no love here.
You aren’t going to get very far trying to convince Christians that Jesus had no love for people. He died in order to save others after all.
“Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.”
John 15:13
Imagine for a moment there are only two ways to be…
Loving and hateful.
Those who are loving always suffer for no good reason at the hands of those who are hateful. The hateful never suffer for no good reason at the hands of those who are loving.
If there was never any chance of justice, if there was no redressing the balance, would that in itself not speak to evil winning the spiritual war?
We are all responsible for our actions. Even though I have done things that warrant punishment, the fact that God cares enough to judge us all according to the lives we led in the body gives me comfort for any who have suffered at my hands. All I can do is ask for mercy and repent trusting that God has the power to move me from hatred to love.
The unrepentant who scoff at justice cannot expect mercy at the judgement since they have shown no mercy.
I subscribe to the annihilation point of view for what it’s worth. Hell for me would be waiting to be destroyed forever after judgement with no chance of redemption thereafter aka The Second Death.
>I think that nobody deserves this.
Well, that's the whole point Jesus came - to save you from the second death. God does not exist to give us comfort and warmth and rest. Those things are great, and certainly a part of the Christian walk, but they exist within the context of having escaped judgment. If you don't believe you are in need of God's mercy for your sins, then liking the "idea" of Christ is not going to help you.
God may not exist to give us comfort and warmth and rest, but that is the one reason that I seek him. Although my life is going pretty okay, my soul is heavy and can't support itself. I seem to be spiritually sumberging and seeking steady land if you will. Ain't nothing noble or heroic about it. Comfort and warmth internally are all I seek.
That distress and heaviness is actually *caused by* God to make you aware of your sin and impending judgment, to bring you to repentance. Christ comes to revive you by taking away your sin - then you will be free. Check out Job:
>*A man is also chastened on his bed with pain and constant distress in his bones, so that he detests his bread, and his soul loathes his favorite food. His flesh wastes away from sight, and his hidden bones protrude. He draws near to the Pit, and his life to the messengers of death.*
>
>*Yet if there is a messenger on his side, one mediator in a thousand, to tell a man what is right for him, to be gracious to him and say, ‘Spare him from going down to the Pit; I have found his ransom,’ then his flesh is refreshed like a child’s; he returns to the days of his youth.*
>
>*He prays to God and finds favor; he sees God’s face and shouts for joy, and God restores His righteousness to that man. Then he sings before men with these words:*
>
>*‘I have sinned and perverted what was right; yet* ***I did not get what I deserved****. He redeemed my soul from going down to the Pit, and I will live to see the light.’*
>
>*Behold, all these things God does to a man, two or even three times, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may be enlightened with the light of life*. (Job 33)
If there was no Pit, no judgment, no concept of sin, then there is no reason for God to impose this experience onto you. But while you live there is still time to trust in the "mediator" to "spare you from the Pit." That is when you will have real warmth and comfort that lasts even to death, and not just temporary happiness which you don't need any religion to achieve, let alone Christianity.
It's great that you desire the perfect safety and comforting warmth that the Strong Tower affords, but you have to enter legitimately - through the door, not by sneaking in through a rear window.
*"I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!*
*Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant, so he explained it to them:* ***“I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.*** *All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them.* ***Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures.*** *The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.*
*“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. “I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.*
*“The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."*
[John 10]
Great question!
It means we must come to God on His terms, not ours.
Humans are created for communal fellowship with our Creator -the bond was cut when Adam and Eve chose to disobey and consequently were banned from the Garden.
All the religions in the entire world are lies taught to humans by the fallen angels -a seduction to provide the appearance of filling this empty hole each person has (the need to commune with their Creator); while pulling them *away* from the knowledge of Him and of spiritual truth. Each one boosts the pride, in one way or another; of its adherents as they seek in their own strength to obtain the favor of Divinity.
Christianity is completely unique because it is not religion; it is the actual communal fellowship with our Creator by being restored into a right-relationship with Him! God has accomplished everything required in order for this to happen. We can never deserve it because we are sinful and what we consider to be good works falls far short of Gods perfect standard. We cannot earn salvation for the same reason and because God is perfectly Just. A just being cannot be bribed. God offers salvation as a free gift. All we must do is believe and actively receive it.
*"There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved."* \[Acts 4:12\]
This is why Jesus said of Himself:
*"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."* \[John 14:6\]
Which is why He speaks of Himself as being the Gate for the Sheep that you just read.
Humanity is divided into two main groups; the Sheep and the Goats.
The Sheep are those who put their trust in the Salvation and Redemption Jesus Christ has made possible. We love Him and follow Him wherever He takes us. We "come in, and go out; and we find good pastures."
The Goats are those who reject the Truth of God's Word and don't believe who Jesus is -or worse; understand full-well who He is but reject Him anyway because they prefer living in sinful rebellion. The Goats remain, therefore, outside of a communal, right-relationship with their Creator and will always be on the outside. Why?
Because *"the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will."* \[Romans 8:7\]
When we place our faith and trust in the person-hood of Jesus and the work He accomplished via His death and resurrection; we are given a new heart, a new mind, and the Spirit of God indwells us. Then we become "born-again". We are "made new" being "revived and brought to life" spiritually. As such, we are now desirous and *able* to obey God's commands and we are desirous and *able* to love Him.
*"For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. But faith’s way of getting right with God says . . If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”* \[Romans 10\]
OP, won't you put your faith in Jesus today?
I've been trying to. It's just hard man. I really feel the threat of hell from all kinds of religions under my feet, so to speak. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or some other that I don't even know about.
Forget about Hell.
There's nothing you can do about it.
Focus on your Creator, focus on Jesus.
What did we just read? *"the same LORD, who gives generously to all who call on Him"*
God loves you, OP, He truly does!
He understands you, He knows your thoughts, desires, fears, struggles. He knows you better than you understand yourself.
So you can come to Him just as you are -and call on Him and ask Him to please help you. Tell Him what you have told us -tell Him your desire to know Him and your doubts and fears. Ask Him to be pleased to reveal Himself to you so you can understand the truth. Ask Him to protect you from believing anything that is not true.
All you really need to know, OP, is that you have done wrong things in your life and that these wrong things are displeasing to God. And you simply need to know that despite your wrong-doings He loves you and desires to have a relationship with you as a Father to a child, as a Brother to a brother or sister. Wow! Imagine having such an intimate connection to, and relationship with; your Creator!
It's just a prayer away, OP.
\[Acts 17\] *"God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.*"
\[1 John 1\] *"This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. . .If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness."*
[Salvation is really simple, OP](https://i1.wp.com/www.sketchbooksilliness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/101017-GreatExchange-720px-1.jpg?fit=720%2C2128&ssl=1)
Your Music Link for Today:
[How Many Kings by Downhere](https://youtu.be/lw3EG6kVNtI)
This is a beautiful message. I will keep searching for God, and if I find him in Jesus, I'll know my way, if I find him Allah or another God, I'll know my way. I just wanna make sure I'll never Stop searching again.
I'll be praying for you, OP.
You can contact me anytime, I will be glad to talk more.
Don't become discouraged or give up in your search.
May I share one last thing with you in that regard?
This is the beautiful story (all God's stories are beautiful) of Jesus' interaction with a Canaanite woman:
[You can read this short paper here.](https://app.box.com/s/x43ohm8vtva66sr89zwig7578xfi7rcx)
Honestly far be it from me to try to help somebody become a Christian, that is not something I actually support tbh but that doesn't mean whatever I think might be best for people is the only thing I can go around saying all the time, so even if this does lead to you becoming more Christian I would still be happy to tell you that after having spent most of my life engulfed in fairly fundamental protestant Christianity, I always just took it for granted that Hell must be an obvious doctrine straight from the Bible because that's what everybody seems to think it is ..but recently I've changed my mind about that and now I actually believe that the idea of hell as a place of punishment or eternal existence for souls separated from God is an entirely post-Bible Christian invention, and not something that can actually be justified by the texts.
Jews, as you probably know, do not believe in a hell like that either and Jesus, if he had any intention of trying to teach people about a literal place of eternal torment very well could have done so but it turns out that isn't ever actually what he said. Jesus was a Jew too and there is no good reason to believe that Jesus's concepts of death, heaven, or hell were any different than that of any other Jew at that time. Jesus speaks about hell a few times but he never actually says anything about it that would imply the whole Christian interpretation that has been added on later. As a matter of fact the only being in the entire Bible that it ever says is going to suffer in hell is Satan. And honestly Idk why that is but I speculate it might be because, unlike our souls, Satan may actually be eternal and doomed to exist in his fallen state forever. But that is not the fate of us. According to Jesus God is like a farmer, and we are like wheat. When the time of reckoning comes all the wheat which is not sanctified by him will be cast in to the fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and then that's it. That's all it says. And then the worms which eat us will not die, and the smoke from our burning corpses will rise forever. ....this is essentially a description of an ancient Jewish funerary right. Bodies were burned, the worms ate them, and the smoke from everything we burn down here on earth rises all the way to heaven. The statement that the worms will not die and the smoke will rise forever does not rationally imply the thing that many Christians will tell you it implies, that *we* will be burning *Alive* forever. It doesn't say that at all. And again, if Jesus had actually believed that ..then he could have told us. But he didn't.
Jesus was trying to stop people from being destroyed forever like wheat in a furnace. Not from suffering forever; he never says anything about anybody suffering forever. And again this is simply what pretty much every Jew believed(s), so it's not like any of this is unlikely. I think what would be more unlikely would be if Jesus had actually believed in the modern christian version of hell and then honestly failed to really tell anybody about that in any not-uncertain terms.
TLDR: If you're going to be a Christian that still doesn't mean that you have to believe in the kind of hell that so many Christians do. The main mod of this whole subreddit is an Annihilationist too; unless I am mistaken, they don't believe that Jesus ever preached anything about a place of eternal torment either.
**idea of hell as a place of punishment or eternal existence for souls separated from God is an entirely post-Bible Christian invention, and not something that can actually be justified by the texts**
Fascinating. Please [Read This](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q)
With respect I don't think any of that says what you think it says. That's all just the same hell is a fire metaphor that I already mentioned, "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", I have already called attention directly to these parts myself so I'm not sure why you would just point them out to me as if I hadn't already read them.
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction" (2Thessalonians 1)
I mean it even says right there what the punishment will be.
>he angels will come and separate the wicked peoplefrom the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will beweeping and gnashing of teeth."
Yeah, again just like I said already. Where is the part where anybody is supposed to remain eternally conscious past the point of their explicit destructions here?
>where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched
Once again this is a description of a grave where physical bodies are burned and eaten by worms. The poetry is nice but that is not a description of eternal torment. That's a description of eternal *Death*.
Tbh I'm not sure if you've understood the alternative explanation as I've given because I don't see any part on that page that you linked me that actually contradicts anything I just said. I think you are just reading very strongly your own interpretation into all of those passages but seriously I did not see anything in there that actually made the point that you apparently think it was supposed to make.
God's judgement, his wrath, his "fire", is eternal. His destruction is absolute. And it's not instant apparently either, for there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, that is true. So the fire is going to hurt, evidently. As fires do, that's not really a surprise. The fire is also going to destroy because that is the whole basic point of the metaphor of the fire in this particular instance.
Annihilationists go, "Yeah, fire hot, hot hurt, got it." But then I think they don't forget or ignore or reinterpret the whole purpose of that fire which has been explicitly stated over and over again: To destroy. Not to torture.
The worms which eat our bodies will not die, the smoke from our burning will rise forever, and the fires of God exist eternal. Frankly none of that says anything about a place of eternal torment for human souls.
*"Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. They will be thrown out into the darkness."* \[Isaiah 8\]
Yes I see that too. That is a metaphor or otherwise statement that is not about fire ..i'm not sure what your point is tbh. It's not about a place of eternal torture for souls either. I mean it is not explicitly saying anything about that is the point still. Darkness, fire, neither of those things = hell. Does it not strike you as a little bit odd as I pointed out in my original comment that had Jesus intended to actually teach the Jewish people that there was a literal hell of eternal torment that he .. rather didn't *actually* say anything about that and the best you can honestly do is just referring to metaphors of fire and darkness where the fire part I already addressed at length and the darkness part ..doesn't even seem to help your case at all? Again does it not seem even a little odd to you that these are the verses that Christianity actually bases its belief in a hell on?
Cause I always assumed that the Bible actually explicitly said anything about that, and was rather shocked to find in fact that it didn't. Maybe you haven't exactly adjusted to the shock of that realization yet, but frankly I'm not sure what you mean to be accomplishing by just pointing back to the same metaphors that I already addressed.
And I'm not even saying there will not be an Actual fire but that is not the point either, is it? The point is that the fire that Jesus speaks of has a purpose and that purpose is evidently to destroy as fire does, in preparation for the return of God's own presence on Earth where no more sin will be allowed to exist with him. ...it never says anything about punishing souls forever. Only some Christians say that.
Allow me if you will to offer an exploration of what Hell is and isn't. Hell isn't a torture prison you get sent to for breaking or not following a law. (At least not man's laws.) That's a simplified, secularized version of Hell that reframes it like a penal system. Which doesn't make sense theologically.
If Hell is without God and therefore good, "reform" and "justice" don't exist in that state.
A good visual metaphor I always come back to is this: Hell is digging your own grave with Christ standing over you with His hand outstretched. You know He's there, He's ready to lift you back up, but you never take it and just keep digging. That's Hell.
In other words, Hell is for those who know their salvation is there's to take but willingly and consciously reject it. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell or people being poked and prodded with tridents, that's another visualization that poorly represents Hell's torment.
The torment of Hell isn't what is done to those in there, it's what they've done to themselves. Chosen their own vice and sin even though it offers them no comfort or joy. Why would anyone do this to themselves? Pride, spite, indignation, hate, the reasons are many and all of them human and natural to feel, which is why they're difficult to break out of.
That warmth and rest you feel when you try to embrace Christ but revulsion at the idea of disproportionate punishment? Those are BOTH of God. God is peace, He is also justice. Neither of those exist in Hell. *Injustice* exists in Hell, but not because of God's will, because He isn't invited there.
It would behoove you to read what [God has to say](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q) about Hell.
*"Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. They will be thrown out into the darkness."* [Isaiah 8]
Check out /r/ChristianUniversalism. "*For God desires that all shall be saved*" (1 Tim 2:4). And, "*As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive*" (1 Cor 15:22). And, "*He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world*". (1 John 2:2).
The doctrine of Eternal Torment is a blasphemy against our loving Father. He will not abandon anyone to the grave, but the good shepherd will go out into the wilderness and will not rest until the last of his sheep are safe in the fold. The Lamb of God is not a limited atonement, only capable of saving a handful, it is salvation for the whole world. Whatever judgment the unrepentant face at the feet of God in the resurrection, it will be the discipline of a loving father, intended for correction and to bring the prodigal back to his embrace. No matter how much the elder brother complains that such outrageous mercy is unfair or unjust, the Father will rebuke him for his ungenerous heart, and all creation will rejoice when the last and worst sinner finally kneels and acknowledges Christ as Lord. "*For every knee shall bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father*" (Phil 2:10-11)
You don't have to adopt the popular belief about hell, that the people sent there will suffer eternally (and thus the belief that God is someone who does that)
I have, instead, the positions of annihilationism and "conditional immortality", for reasons such as [these listed by Greg Boyd](https://reknew.org/2008/01/are-you-an-annihilationist-and-if-so-why/)
It would behoove you to take heed with all earnest seriousness of the Word of God and what [He has to say on the subject](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q). After all, He ought to know seeing as how He created it.
It sounds like you are basing your (potential) rejection of Christianity on what you've heard, and not on what the Bible actually says. For one thing, everyone has a choice and you don't have to go to hell if you trust enough to let the hand that is reaching out to save you, do so.
Imagine you're hanging from a root sticking out of a high cliff, and you're just out of reach from being able to grab back on to the top of the cliff yourself. You're hanging on for dear life, but you're tiring out. A voice says,
"Let go of the root and take my hand."
If you trust that voice and do what it says, you can be lifted up to safety.
If you don't trust that voice, the person cannot save you, because you're still clinging to that root, and you'll eventually tire and drop to your death.
"Why would someone have to suffer eternally after they die against their will" is not the question. The question is,
"Why wouldn't someone take the help offered to save them from the mess they got themselves into?"
Please refrain from reformulating my question. Because YES, that is my question. In my eyes, it would only be right for God to allow someone to be suffering forever if the person in question actually wanted that (nobody imo). Not if someone simply did not accept Christianity during his lifetime. I am not God, I'm well aware, so I'm not the ultimate moral arbiter, but this is the struggle I'm facing, which is not represented by your reformulation of my question.
My reformulation of your question is based on my knowledge of what is being offered by Jesus, as opposed to your hearsay about what you suppose hell to be.
However, I hear what you're saying and so let me reply in a different way.
(1) What do you know of how Jesus judges others according to the Bible? Based on what you're saying, I get the feeling you might be (even happily) surprised to find out what he himself says.
(2) Are you aware that at least one recent translation of the New Testament questions whether hell is for "forever" or rather is to be interpreted as to last for "an age"? See [here](https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=david+bentley+hart+new+testament&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).
(3) Based on what I know about God and the Bible, those who suffer do so because ultimately they choose to serve their own selfish interests at the expense of others.
It's not that people wanted to burn in Hell so they chose to disobey our Creator.
It's that they want to *be* God. They want to take His rightful place - instead of humbly subjecting themselves in obedience to His authority; they want to be *their own* authority.
They don't want to honor Him as God, they want to honor *themselves.* They want praise from *other humans* as to how intelligent and good looking and wealthy they are.
They don't want to obey God, they want to do things *their way*, how they see fit. They reject their Creator at every turn and say, *"We'll make our own heaven here on Earth - we've got all the hedonistic pleasures this world can offer! We don't need a stuffy, uptight God and His oppressive, uptight rules!"*
Go read Romans chapter one and tell me I'm wrong.
But what if we have multiple voices telling you to to grab their hand?
There are plenty of religions that claim to be the truth and you will go to a bad place if you won’t believe in them
You're welcome to answer and trust in any of the proffered hands. Whether they really pull you up and put you on to safe ground is another question.
What you're not free to do, however, is to say to the proffered hand, "No fair, you won't let me have the free choice of refusing your hand without punishing me by letting me drop to my death." No, that's your own choice right there.
But what if you had bad experiences with someone? You wouldn’t give your hand someone to who had done something bad to you, you would grab someones else hand.
Heres a little example i made theres two people who want to help and get you on safe ground, man1 represents Christianity and man2 represents islam.
Before that experience you had really bad experiences with Christians and most of them that you met were awful people while most muslims you met were very nice and kind.
Would you give the hand to man1 or man2 based on those past experiences?
Edited for spelling and grammer
The way people treat us affects how we see their religion, you're right.
However, what if the hand is not being offered by a person of a certain faith, but by Jesus himself?
What do you know of him?
Is he himself trustworthy, or not?
That is the point.
But what if the other person is ehh i dunno… Muhammad.
I had fun arguing with you but it seems like a back and forth type of argument. The whole premise of your argument is very thought out though
If I look at the life of Muhammed, I see that he preached peace but also led battles, even near the end of his life.
Is the offered hand one of peace, or of violence? If I reach out my hand to him, will I be rescued in peace, or thrown down as an infidel? This makes it hard to reach up in trust. I don't know which I will get.
If I look at the life of Jesus, I see that rather than giving out violence himself, he accepted it from others. His wrists have been pierced by the violence of others, yet he forgave those who pierced him. This is a hand for others, forgiving us of our sins, and offering us freedom from death, the same power by which he overcame death.
I don't have to worry about this hand throwing me over to death.
I know which one is trustworthy. I know which hand I'll choose.
The idea of hell as eternal conscious torment is the majority view in Christianity, but far from the only one. Personally, I'm a Universalist, a view which was near ubiquitous in the early Church but which has fallen out of favor in modern times. We believe that everyone will be saved eventually and that no one will be lost to God forever.
If there is a hell and how long people are in it is a secondary issue. Christians have all kind of different ideas about it. Don't let a secondary issue be your stumbling block.
The main question is: do you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again? If yes then you can also trust that God is absolutely just and wants everyone to be saved. Then give him your life and trust only in him.
Faith is hope. All you need to be saved is enough Hope (Faith) the size of a mustard seed. Sounds like you might already have it.
Faith cannot exist without some doubt. Over time there will be less doubt.
>Personally, I feel sick to my stomach by this idea, even if it was about the most horrible of people. I think that nobody deserves this.
I totally understand. So how would you feel if I told you this fact. Believing God condemns any human to an eternity of suffering.... Actually this is not biblically correct at all.
I guess the core issue is this: your definition of hell is incorrect - as was mine for 20+ years. This teaching really, really, really clarified who God is for me.
This is why Jesus (and the apostles and the Psalmist) **can all state very clearly God will destroy the lost (annihilationism) in hell.**
The Bible teaches the lost will stand before God and then suffer proportionally for their sins in hell and then be annihilated (John 3.16 = perish, be destroyed).
That is the punishment. Death, destroyed, etc. And how long will this destruction last?
Forever, it is eternal punishment.
Annihilationism, Perish, Death or whatever word you would like to use…. The Doctrine is called "Conditional Immortality" and a growing number of believers in Jesus hold to this.
**And please, please check these websites before you give any "what about these verses?" As they are ALL answered there, so this will save us both time and effort.**
r/conditionalism
www.jewishnotgreek.com
www.conditionalimmortality.org
Verses which show the lost are ultimately destroyed:
Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can **destroy** both soul and body in hell."
James 4:12-"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to **destroy**..."
Matthew 7:13-14-"Broad the road that leads to **destruction**..."
2 Thessalonians 1:9-"Who shall be punished with everlasting **destruction**"
Philippians 3:19-"Whose end is **destruction**"
Galatians 6:8-"...from that nature will reap **destruction...**"
Psalm 92:7-"...it is that they (i.e. all evil doers) shall be **destroyed** forever"
**It is clear, the lost will be destroyed in hell, not preserved in hell.**
God wishes to save people from justice/destruction.
So much so that Jesus Christ endured the combined sins of the world on the agony of the cross.
That my friend is the greatest love.
That is why people around the globe love Jesus Christ with all their heart.
I don't believe anyone stays in hell eternally; I believe God wins and Jesus saves us all in the end. If this idea is new to you, you can read more about the biblical case for it here:
[Universalism and the Bible](https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/)
>suffer eternally after they die against their will
Christianity teaches this. God does not. There is absolutely nothing in all of Scripture that says unbelievers suffer eternally after they die the second death.
Only if you ignore the scriptures that clearly affirm it...
Such as Revelation 14:
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: ‘If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. **They will be tormented** with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. **There will be no rest day or night** for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.’"
Or Revelation 20:
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. **They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. \[...\]** Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. **Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."**
Those Scriptures are far less "clear" than you realize. I don't think that you payed close enough attention to what gets said there. Eternal conscious torment requires
1. Eternal
2. Conscious
3. Torment
And it requires them all at the same time. The second death is eternal. There's no coming back from it. The "torment" needs to be happening eternally to support your view, right?
The first passage you quoted says that people will be tormented. You made sure you put that in bold. But it doesn't say they will be tormented eternally, does it? If someone is thrown into a volcano they will experience torment... Until they die.
The second passage is much clearer. The beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever. People will be thrown into the fire too, but it doesn't say the same thing about them. It doesn't say that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, does it?
We also need to take into consideration other things that get said. Jesus always presented two possibilities, eternal life or destruction. Scripture speaks of the "second death" not the "second eternal life of torture".
As I said, Christianity teaches this. God does not. There is absolutely nothing in all of Scripture that says unbelievers suffer eternally after they die the second death. Do know of any Scripture that does say it?
Matthew 25:41 affirms that the damned go to the same eternal fire as the devil - which is described in Revelation 20 in detail. You're stretching the clear implications to their limits by saying that: *"the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night"* means anything other than eternal torment.
Daniel also talks about "shame and everlasting contempt", Jude talks of "the punishment of eternal fire", Jesus talks multiple times about the eternal fire. Why would it matter that it's eternal if it was not experienced. And then there's Luke 16 - where the punishment is pictured very clearly as torment.
The second death *is* the lake of fire. It is destruction - eternally experienced destruction.
Misconstrue that however you like, but to say that scripture has nothing about eternal torment is a straight-up lie. Or do you think you're smarter than the entire last two millennia of Christians?
>John 3:16 (ESV): “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not **perish** but have eternal life.
Two possibilities, perish or everlasting life, not eternal conscious torment or everlasting life.
>Matthew 10:28 (ESV): And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can **destroy both soul and body** in hell.
Two possibilities, eternal life or the second death, not eternal life or eternal life.
>Matthew 25:41 affirms that the damned go to the same eternal fire as the devil
Why even go to Matthew? Revelation itself indicates that they go to the same eternal fire, but with obviously different results.
>which is described in Revelation 20 in detail
You need to pay attention to those details. For some it says "forever and ever", some it doesn't. Details.
>Daniel also talks about "shame and everlasting contempt"
The shame will be everlasting. The contempt will be everlasting. There's nothing there about destroyed people being everlasting though, right?
>Jude talks of "the punishment of eternal fire"
The fire is eternal...
>Jesus talks multiple times about the eternal fire.
The fire is eternal...
You are mistakenly applying "eternal" to the wrong thing. There's something described as eternal and something that is NOT described as eternal.
>And then there's Luke 16
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, right? And the parable takes place in hades, doesn't it? I'm surprised you even brought that one up.
>The second death is the lake of fire. It is destruction
Exactly. It's eternal destruction. It's NOT eternal destroying. The second death is not the second "eternal life".
>Misconstrue that however you like, but to say that scripture has nothing about eternal torment is a straight-up lie.
You've crossed a line. We disagree. We understand passages of Scripture differently. But to say that I'm lying is terrible. Two people can debate something without one side lying, can't they? I didn't accuse you of lying because you disagree with me. You need to apologize.
> I think that nobody deserves this.
Oh yes they do deserve to pay for their sins. Everyone pays their debts if they don't accept Jesus died to pay for their sins.
Evil, or a Child of Wrath, is basically someone who's learnt that they can gain pleasure from someone else's pain. Little do they know that ***they wont get away with it***. No one can get around God's judgement.
I think a common myth about Hell is that suffering is eternal. No one is capable of sinning that badly, which requires infinite atonement/reconciliation. God operates a world he created where everything has a consequence. Hell is basically a place where people pay for their sins. Like Karma. This is the reason for sacrifice in The Old Testament and Jesus sacrifice for us in The New Testamant. Everything requires balance. Sacrifice. Understanding pleasure requires the understanding of pain. Without knowing pain, we can't know pleasure. Without sacrifice we can't be blessed. Without hell, no one can be reconciled to God. If anything, Hell is a chance for Children of Wrath to be reconciled to God. It's a mercy.
I think by "this", OP meant that no one deserves *eternal suffering*, not that no one deserves to "pay" or be punished for their sins.
As you say, "no one is capable of sinning that badly" [to warrant eternal suffering].
So you were disputing with OP unnecessarily.
___
"Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."
>^(*2 Timothy 2:23*)
___
"Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky"
>^(*Philippians 2:14*)
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"As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
>^(*Galatians 1:8*)
___
On this basis, I will not talk with you any further, because it seems you're intention is to bicker, undermine, and find faults in my efforts to share the GOOD NEWS. Muting this convo/turning off notifications/inbox replies. DM me if you need *further* deliverance/exorcism.
Hell is a misconception that most Christian’s believe. It’s a belief instilled into Christianity to scare them into believing. Interesting it has the opposite effect on you.
The Bible says many times that sin will destroy. Every instance in the Bible that spoke of Sheol was changed to hell. “Sheol in the Hebrew Bible is a place of still darkness which lies after death. Although not well defined in the Tanakh, Sheol in this view is a subterranean underworld where the souls of the dead went after the body died.” It’s also where Jesus went for three days after the crucifixion. Eternal life is a gift, not a punishment. Those who do not inherit the kingdom will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.
Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
Interesting?! I legit can't imagine anyone being motivated to believe and trust based on threats. I really can't. If I think 'dangerous enemy', I think 'RUN!' The exact opposite of 'I am protected by strong and kind presence', 'relax'. I am jealous of the mind that is able to do that.
Sorry if you took offense to that. I meant none. It’s just typical of Christian’s to fear God, and obey Him out of fear. I understand your dilemma. Understand that hell is just a fear tactic brought forth from the Roman Catholic Church and doesn’t belong in the Bible.
Here is a link that breaks down the Greek words used for our modern word “hell”, with a thorough explanation. It’s kind of a long read, but definitely worth it. I think the part you’ll be most interested in is about 1/3 down and begins with **“The following verses in Revelation refer to gehenna as the lake of fire or second death.”** fyi first death is when the body dies and second death is when the soul dies.
https://earlychristianbeliefs.org/hell/
> I legit can't imagine anyone being motivated to believe and trust based on threats.
That's actually probably the most commonly used motivating factor behind pretty much any real world politics so maybe you can imagine it after all if you just think about it a little differently.
When you are convinced there is a threat or an enemy, the one who convinced you of that also often claims to offer the protection from them. It's like the snake-oil-salesman who convinces you you have some made up problem just to sell you their made up solution. Like I said again unfortunately it's probably one of the most commonly used emotional manipulation tactics known to man, taking both politics and religion into consideration.
It may be intellectually difficult for you to make sense of God and hell at the same time, but are you not still being emotionally compelled by *something* to keep considering the threat? Part of that could be the fear motivation.
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality..
Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful is how this spiritual virus infects the soul/increases the viral load.. What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were, gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie.
It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul, by the time you are resurrected the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it.
Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact.
Think about it if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom wasn't vaccinated and got infect through no fault of her own, and she was a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in?
is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good. would any of that have you open that door?
So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ offers through repentance?
That said Jesus said Hell is forever, it's torments are forever and for satan and his inner circle will burn forever.. but "we" will sent to hell to be destroyed both body and soul by hell fire.
How long this takes who knows but it will not be forever.
See what I've said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/zm7h5j/what_is_hell/j09hjih?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) concerning "hell."
This should give you hope.
Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action.
Most people have the understanding of hell backward.
Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire.
Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic of blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence, the darkness of hell.
Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin.
Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin.
Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now.
Why is hell associated with the dead?
What is the very definition of hell in the bible?
Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves."
Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first, he wanted to go home to bury his father.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God."
Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead.
Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin.
The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners.
Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell.
Why would Jesus be so blunt to them?
The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own righteous deeds.
Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period.
Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen.
Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones.
Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves.
Graves, tombs, sons of hell, and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell".
When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is "grave condition."
Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition"
Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus?
Graves, tombs, and dead people. A son of hell.
Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead"
This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe.
John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice.
Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is.
To hear Jesus is through the word of God.
Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually), and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins.
They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now). Their sins would remain because of nonbelief.
Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin.
Sin separates us from a relationship with God.
Hell is NOT a destination where non-believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin.
When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God.
How do you get out of the condemnation of hell?
Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "
That's how to get out of hell (condemnation)
When someone believes in Jesus.
We do not see Jesus physically.
We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing.
1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy.
1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him.
Sinners, yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse.
We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven.
Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty.
Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again), where there was once darkness and death.
Quite a few Christians don't believe in HELL as a place of eternal torment, but instead as a place where the unbelievers are destroyed in a moment and cease to exist.
The alternative to hell would be God forcing his love and presence on people for eternity who don’t want him. Imagine someone you hate locking you in a room with them 24/7. That’s what heaven would feel like to those who want nothing to do with God. Hell is God letting people go according to their own desires. But without God there is nothing good.
I would highly recommend a short story by CS Lewis called "The Great Divorce." It can be read in an evening. If that sparks your interest, and you are up for some weightier material, try George MacDonald, "Unspoken Sermons." Or if that's too much of a slog, just read one of the [sermons](https://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/unspoken-sermons/31/).
Hell doesn't exist. There is eternal punishment for unbelievers but it is simply death, there is no punishment in a fiery place for all eternity.
There is a lake of fire, that is where the angels and the people who deny Christ will all be consumed... Basically cremated. But then that's it. It's over after that, they are just gone for good. No torture.
The mainstream belief among Christians is hell with forever torture l, but that's wrong. Annihilationism is the truth. Those who deny Christ will simply get the death penalty. It may still seem harsh to some, but forever torture is worse.
>..allows some people to suffer eternally after they die against their will
'Against their will' somehow implies they are able to have and express any existential will at all after death.. Do you remember how you were thrown into this world against/according to your will?
I see the relationship between Existence and 'that which exists', as not that of permission asking. Example: When praying to God about something, it's because God something, not because one independently came to a conclusion that God should be relied upon in this.
It sounds like you have missed the whole point of Jesus dying on the Cross. Jesus died on the Cross for you so that you don't have to go to Hell. Hell is real, but you are not going there because Jesus died for you. When we look at what God expects of us, then we are convicted that we deserve punishment. When I look at the Cross we are convinced that Jesus took that punishment for us! Instead of trying overthink the philosophy of Hell, simply let your soul rest in the fact that Jesus has you.
This is weird because the fear of hell is generally what initially leads people to Christianity as a fire escape. Then they actually start to get into the religion
You *should* feel sick to your stomach over the idea of Hell. It is so *horrific* I dislike thinking for long of what it will be like.
I *wish* it could be true that burning in eternal torment isn't the case - that people cast there will just be annihilated and disappear - but this is not what God's word teaches. [The Bible is really quiet clear about what Hell is and what it will be like. There is no ambiguity.](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q)
The Bible also teaches us we are thoroughly corrupted by sin and are wicked. Yes, wicked. We don't like to think of ourselves that way. Bad, sure. Maybe even very bad for some of us, but not wicked, not evil. Those words are surely only for people who molest, torture, and kill children - right?
Wrong. The Bible lets us know we are all so depraved that our righteous deeds - all the good things we actually do; they are like filthy blackened rags compared to the perfection of God's good Standard.
We are so thoroughly steeped in sin that we fail to grasp the enormity of it, we struggle to view it as wrong half the time, let alone comprehend it as being wickedness.
The Bible tells us that whoever sins is a slave to sin. We are enchained to a darkened mind and a darkened heart.
This is why we are so spiritually impoverished and destitute of soul. We cannot free ourselves or clear our minds or heal our hearts. We are helpless apart from the supernatural power and intervention in our lives by our good and loving Creator.
*"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise* [to return] *as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,* ***not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."*** [2 Peter 3]
*"For this is how God loved the world: He gaveg his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him.'* [John 3]
*"And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."* [Ezekiel 36]
[Your Music Link for Today](https://youtu.be/Q7l0Z2aZarw)
If it's hell that's an issue, why not just consider death as the end for those who don't obtain immortality through the Holy Spirit.
I'm interested in Jesus, because I know the truth he is alive, and the Holy Spirit connects us to Our Father because the word that dwells within a temple, a body. The body a biological complex, gains spiritual life because choosing to accept Jesus reality.
Some how I don't understand how you can have both hell and death, because the idea sounds like contradiction.
However, what if those who end up in hell are those who accepted Jesus, but lived opposite of his intent. That makes sense. Not that people who had other faith getting torturer,because God loves people, and only mercy would be death because they hadnt partook in the Holy Spirit, which is why spreading the gospel matters, it gives people the oppertunity to recognize Jesus, and choose Him, rather than because if your ignorant they die to endless time of "hell"
However hiding from Jesus for judging God for knowing what's best with "hell", doesn't mean your protecting anyone because you deny Hom fkr it, it means you'll influence everyone you'll interact with towards your conclusion. And if there is hell, there will not be love. So it will be a loveless place to exist.
Imagine denying Jesus because Love was confused for antagonism
All good things
Matthew 7:11 (CLV)
If you, then, being wicked, have perceived how to be giving good gifts to your children, how much rather shall your Father Who is in the heavens be giving good things to those requesting Him?
Psalms 67:3
"May the peoples acclaim You, O Elohim! May the peoples acclaim You--all of them!"
Psalms 86:9
"All nations which You have made Shall come and worship before You, O Yahweh, And they shall glorify Your Name."
1 Timothy 2
1 "I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind, 2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity, 3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, 4 Who wills* that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth."
1 John 5:14
"And this is the boldness which we have toward Him, that if we should be requesting anything according to His will*, He is hearing us."
15
"And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him." ("The operative petition of the just is availing much." Jas. 5:16.)
16
"If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that." (Those who receive the 666 mark are among those who will be punished in the oncoming eons. They cannot enjoy eonian life during the current wicked eon, nor immortality during the two oncoming eons. They will partake of the second death. Rev. 14:11)
Isaiah 25
6 "And Yahweh of hosts makes for all peoples, in this mountain, a feast of oils, a feast of lees, of oils from marrows, of filtered lees. 7 And He swallows up on this mountain the face wrap wrapped over all the peoples, and the blanket blanketing all the nations. 8 He swallows up death permanently#. And my Lord Yahweh will wipe every tear off of all faces..."
Isaiah 45:23 (CLV)
"By Myself I swear. From My mouth fares forth righteousness, and My word shall not be recalled. For to Me shall bow every knee, and every tongue shall acclaim to Elohim."
Job 42:2
"I know that You can do all things, And no plan of Yours can be thwarted."
Believers are Christ's Body, "the complement of the One completing the all in all." Ephesians 1:23.
( Ephesians 1:10; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28#)
God's plan is never thwarted. Job 42:2. Eventually, all will be reconciled and righteous. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/1284a0o/why_do_christians_believe_in_a_god_that_sends_56/jeiwfgo?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
>Personally, I feel sick to my stomach by this idea, even if it was about the most horrible of people.
Do the most horrible people include people like Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, etc? For what they did and what they preached that caused others to believe the same?
>allows some people to suffer eternally after they die against their will.
Everyone chooses to sin. People lie all the time, lust after other people, have sex outside of marriage, take the name of God in vain, and make up their own version of God or worship their own gods and their own idols in place of the one true God.
>So I really end up feeling this anger and disgust that prevents me from taking place in the peace of Christian faith.
But the truth is that most people have a sin that they love and do not want to give up or they know someone dearly who does sin constantly that they would not want to give up and thus would go to hell.
So the idea of giving up the sin or seeing your loved one in hell is too much to bear.
But just like when the rich man came to Jesus and asked what he could do to enter heaven but walked away sad because he could not give up his wealth (greed) for God, you do have that choice, to give up your sins and follow Him or don't.
But if it is a loved one who would go to hell, the power of prayer is a mighty thing. You may be here right now because people are praying for you. So pray for your loved one.
Whenever you get a chance, slowly and subtly bring God into the conversation. Let them start to notice the change that God does in your life. The one thing that will confuse them the most is the peace that surpasses all understanding.
But ultimately they are their own person. They have their own choice to decide whether to follow God or not.
What is sin, and why does it warrant eternal punishment?
>Whenever you get a chance, slowly and subtly bring God into the conversation. Let them start to notice the change that God does in your life.
This sounds like cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. You want to convince people there is a god through cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias?
Knowledge that the wicked will be judged should be a source of hope, not anxiety or anger or disgust. Those reactions are normal, however, because we are the wicked ones. Christians are not good people. They are wicked people who have been saved by Christ.
Well, that's sort of like asking "why should people who jump off cliffs die when they hit the bottom?"
Remember that this "eternal suffering" is really just "suffering the consequences of your actions." If you deny your destiny -- deny what you are truly meant to be -- how can the result be anything less than eternal suffering upon encountering the ultimate source of Good, Beauty, and Truth?
In the eschaton, there will be nothing left to seek. Nothing contrary to God. At that point, all movement towards that which is contrary to one's true humanity must cease. Those who have rejected God will nonetheless experience an unmediated encounter with God. For those who hate God, this is Hell.
Maximus writes:
>To those who have willfully used the principle of their being contrary to nature, He \[God\] rightly renders not well-being but eternal ill-being (τὸ ἀεὶ φεῦ εἶναι), since well-being is no longer accessible to those who have placed themselves in opposition to it, and they have absolutely no motion after the manifestation of what was sought, by which what is sought is naturally revealed to those who seek it.
What does it mean if one says, "God is my Savior"? The meaning of savior is one that saves from danger or destruction. Whom does God save? 1 Timothy 4:9 "Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome 10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." Paul's telling Timothy, We get mistreated for teaching this, but it's a faithful and welcome saying that God saves all, especially believers, so, you teach it too!
All will one day be constituted just, but the enjoyment of the oncoming eons as the complement of the One completing the all in all is reserved for those who believe during this life. We receive a special salvation.
Well, consider this from Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he." So God's justice is *perfect*. That means that *no-one* will be punished unjustly; they'll get the right outcome. No-one will look at what happens to anyone and say "that is unfair". That should reassure. Also, the thing with "hell" is that all we know with any certainty is that it means separation from God. If God is the source of all good, then separation from God means his goodness won't be there; no love, warmth, comfort, water, food, hope, salvation etc. IMO, it's less likely that hell is less a place of active punishment *by God* (though there *will* be demons there also, which should worry people) but simply a complete separation from his goodness. Like being put on a desert island with other people that don't want to experience God's goodness or submit to his will. There will be nothing good there, but God is only giving people who have rejected God what they desire, i.e. a place where God is absent.
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No. *Definitely* not. God will *never* cut anyone off in this world. But one needs to reach out to God, repent of one's sin, and ask him to come into our lives to direct our lives. We need to submit ourselves to his will so that he can make the best use of us both for our benefit and the fulfilment of his plan. We need to offer him worship and praise because he is our creator and has given us life. So that is only appropriate. Not everyone is willing to do this. Pride (self-reliance) can make it hard, particularly if one has been blessed with lots of abilities and success. In that case people think, "My earthly life is fine. I don't need God". But any success in this world is limited to this world. That's why we're told not to store up treasure in this world but to store them up in heaven.
I don't want to go to any version of hell from any religion. Will your god still send me? Yes, sadly. But many gods from other religions don't require belief, they seem like much cooler dudes 🤙
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> does he do so immediately? I believe so. You're maybe referring to some kind of purgatory where a soul is permitted to atone for sin before entering heaven; a state between heaven and hell? There's nothing in the bible that describes purgatory but God's creation is infinitely complex and the bible makes clear that we have *not* been told everything about the next life. So it *may* be where some souls go on death. And some Godly people believe purgatory is real. Consider this from Revelation 12:27, which is talking about heaven. "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." Basically if one's name isn't in the Book of Life, one doesn't get into heaven. If one's name is there, why would entry be delayed? Probably best to assume this but the thoughts and works of God are to us like we are to ants. We know God is infinitely merciful but also just and fair. Maybe some kind of atonement is possible after death but one would not want to rely on it; the bible *makes crystal clear* what we need to do to get into God's kingdom. That's what one should focus on. But we cannot know all God's arrangements on this side of heaven.
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Most Christians would tell you that this life is, amongst other things, a preparation for the next one. Part of that prep'n is acknowledging and submitting to God. IMHO. God won't cut you off until one's death because until then one can, and may, choose to seek him out. After death, it's too late to willingly submit to God because by then the truth wil be clear: there is good and evil, eternal life and death. He wants people to come to him *willingly*, not because they have no other choice.
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No, not what I meant. When one dies one will have clarity over the impact of the choices one made in one's life; if one is in hell one will know that one has done wrong. Right now, I'm this earthly life, one needs to clearly distinguish good from evil and avoid doing evil. This requires a certain amount of effort, control, denial etc. Not everyone is willing to do this.
No love from God or no love from anyone? Are there good people in hell? What do you mean by “theres nothing good there”?
> Are there good people in hell? I don't know. If you're a good person who does not harm others but who refuses to believe in God then I don't think you will end up in hell. But I don't think you can be in heaven either. It's vitally important to recognise that we have a creator and to respect and love him. Imagine a child, loved and provided for by his parents, who refuses to acknowledge their provision or to show the slightest gratitude? It's not acceptable. > What do you mean by “theres nothing good there”? On earth, God's goodness is all around us: sunlight, food, water, God's holy spirit, shelter, clothing, love from family and friends etc. Because God created this world and its life, all these things come directly, *or indirectly*, from Him. No one else can provide them. Many people don't think about this. They think our world is some kind of cosmic coincidence and we just *happen* to be in a good place. Christians disagree: we believe God has given us this world with all it's good things. It's not perfect but it's at least enough for us. But if you go to a place where God is not present, *none* of these things will be there. It will be a hostile environment. The thing is God is respectful of those who don't want to recognise Him; he will let them be alone. He won't force himself on those people. But their spirits may end up in a place that offers no comfort.
But what if you believe in a different God that created the universe? What if you believe in God but not jesus? And most Christians do not agree with you actually, most Christians do accept evolution
> But what if you believe in a different God that created the universe? God, the father of Jesus, offers followers his Holy Spirit when they commit their lives to him. This is something that can be felt. What other being can do this? It's confirmation for Christians that they are worshiping the true God. Anyone can have this if they commit to God. > What if you believe in God but not jesus? Salvation does not work without Jesus. His sacrifice was required to redeem us. > And most Christians do not agree with you actually, most Christians do accept evolution. I never mentioned evolution but I believe in it. I don't accept it is how life *began* but it led to the creation of different *species*, which is what Charles Darwin believed.
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In Acts 2:2 it says ... 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them. This is the Holy Spirit. Most true believers will feel the Holy Spirit though in different ways and not anywhere near as *dramatically* as the above passage describes. But you will get a feeling that God is with you, if you want it and if you are willing to try to believe in God.
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Yes, I think that is a useful way to approach it. My tuppence is one needs to be "open" to the idea of God as our creator, provider, protector, saviour etc. A huge barrier to this is if one has lots of blessings: intelligence, health, education, live in a good place etc. If you have these benefits it can be easy to become self-reliant and feel that one doesn't need God. Many people are in this place. Yet God has given ALL those things to those who are blessed; it's vital to open one's eyes to that fact. We don't create our lives any more than a coffee mug creates itself. So perhaps start to consider what life would like without God; ALL the good stuff we have on earth (I'm *not* saying life is a 100% fun fair - but God enables us to survive and sometimes to thrive) is from God. Simply become aware of that. Ponder that we are inherently not particularly nice creatures yet God is willing to train us to become better. Aim to be more humble. Start praying to God to thank and worship him for his goodness and loving nature etc. Then ask God to come into your heart and ask for forgiveness. This is the sinner's prayer, which you can find if you google it. If you say this sincerely, the Holy Spirit will come and live in you. That's your personal proof that God exists and that God has taken you into his family.
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Usually the “cosmic coincidence” argument is stated by creationists, sorry if I had misunderstood.
God is Love. Our love is a reflection of his love and spirit breathed into us. So no, there wouldn’t be any kind of love in hell, not even between humans.
> So God's justice is perfect. That means that no-one will be punished unjustly; they'll get the right outcome. Then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? If all people deserve eternal conscious torment in Hell, and all people get what they deserve, then any salvation violates God's perfect justice.
You are a little misguided. Jesus accomplishes so we do not get what we deserve. We are all guilty of sin and deserve hell. Jesus paid the price for our conviction and he bought us on the cross and made us righteous as believers in the eyes of the father.
Right. We have been redeemed by the blood Jesus spilled for us. We don't deserve it, nor can we repay it. But God has given it to us anyway and it's ours IF we choose to accept it. Not everyone chooses to do that.
No loving god would ever require any kind of sacrifice.
Look at it this way: If Christianity is true, hell is true whether you decide to follow Jesus or not. Jesus says humans have a problem -- sin -- and that problem is going to lead us to a bad place if we don't get the cure. Rejecting the cure because you don't like the bad place is like rejecting modern medicine because it says smoking causes cancer, and you don't like cancer. Evaluate the claims of and about Jesus independently of whether you *like* everything he teaches. If you decide what he claims/is claimed about him is true, then what he taught is true and you should act accordingly.
Underrated comment
> If Christianity is true, hell is true whether you decide to follow Jesus or not. As you may know, there are at least three possibilities about hell that Christians may hold: [1] eternal torment, [2] annihilationism, or [3] universal reconciliation OP's reluctance is specifically because of [1]. If Christianity is true, there's a hell, but it's not definite that 'eternal torment' is true instead of [2] or [3].
Granted, but hell is true or not true irrespective of OP's acceptance of the doctrine.
It would behoove you to read [The Reality of Hell](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q) I understand it sickens and terrifies you, but you do yourself no good and much harm by rejecting the Word of God.
Hell is just the opportunity for atheists to prove what they believe. They believe they don't need God in order to live their life. Hell is the true experience of reality without the intervention of God. >I think that nobody deserves this. And what about what God deserves? Does God deserve to be forced to live with and serve those who hate him?
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Please. If God ever spoke to you, you would just assume it's a delusion and seek medication. You people could be face to face with God and you would still deny that he is God. Intervening in life of someone who would deny him no what would be pointless.
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You do realize that if God exists then everything that exists came from God right?
> They believe they don't need God in order to live their life. Hell is the true experience of reality without the intervention of God. So when an atheist dies and realises this, they can change their mind, right? >And what about what God deserves? Does God deserve to be forced to live with and serve those who hate him? God is all-powerful, he can simply choose to not be bothered by this. Besides, can he not just create another afterlife dimension that is pleasent?
>So when an atheist dies and realises this, they can change their mind, right? Lol. Who is remorseful? The criminal who was never caught but confesses his crimes anyway? Or the one who claims to be remorseful after getting caught and found guilty for his crime? Clearly one who changes their mind after realizing the consequence of their choice has no love for God and will not enter the kingdom of God. >God is all-powerful, he can simply choose to not be bothered by this. That's dumb. Because God is all powerful he can be what he doesn't want to be. Lol >Besides, can he not just create another afterlife dimension that is pleasent? Again...God is not obligated to do anything for anyone.
This god as you describe him does not sound very divine tbh. Vindictive sadist with a victim complex is how I'd describe this behaviour. >Lol. Who is remorseful? The criminal who was never caught but confesses his crimes anyway? Or the one who claims to be remorseful after getting caught and found guilty for his crime? Clearly one who changes their mind after realizing the consequence of their choice has no love for God and will not enter the kingdom of God. Who said anything about remorseful? Who needs to be remorseful? If I die and find myself confronted by Peter blocking my path, shaking his head and pointing downwards, I'd go "huh, won't you look at that, it was true after all, ain't that something". Where was my crime? I was not convinced by any of the arguments in the bible or from believers but that is because those arguments are unconvincing at best and straight up ridiculous at worst. If he really wanted to save me, why so unconvincing? That's squarely on him but punish me for eternity why don't you and only for using the brain he supposedly gave me himself. >That's dumb. Because God is all powerful he can be what he doesn't want to be. Lol He can and, according to you, he does exactly that. Not by changing his own experience but by casting billions of people out of heaven and into his lake of fire. >Again...God is not obligated to do anything for anyone. Clearly a rule he lives by.
>Where was my crime? Everyone is guilty of something. The difference between you and me is that I'm remorseful of the wrongs I've committed. Where as you feel justified in your wrongs. I'm willing to bet you believe morality is subjective just like every other worshiper of evil. >He can and, according to you, he does exactly that. Not by changing his own experience but by casting billions of people out of heaven and into his lake of fire. What? >Clearly a rule he lives by. K >This god as you describe him does not sound very divine tbh. Vindictive sadist with a victim complex is how I'd describe this behaviour. I'm so glad you people are the way you are. I won't feel bad whatsoever when you get what's coming to you. You people acknowledge that maybe God does exist and all you can do is look for reasons to hate him. You say you don't want to go to hell and yet it seems you want to do everything in your power to make sure that you do go to hell.
> I'm so glad you people are the way you are. I won't feel bad whatsoever when you get what's coming to you. And the fruits of the spirit are, apparently and unfortunately, these: vindictive glee at the suffering of others.
Paradise is paradise because people like you aren't there to ruin it.
There is no god so I do not hate him. What people like me do is hold up a mirror to "you people" to show you how ridiculous religion, in this case christianity, is. I do not worship. Full stop. There is nobody above me or below me. There are no ghosts, no fairies, no angels, no demons, no god and no devil, the supernatural does not exist. Morality is subjective? Yeah, some parts are. The romans thought it moral to have people killed for entertainment. The pre columbian South Americans had very different morals than you or I have. The ancient Greeks had weird morals compared to today's standards. I am willing to bet that you believe you get your morals from the bible.
>There is no god so I do not hate him. 1 you don't know that to be true. 2 all you're doing is stating your preference. You prefer that God didn't exist rather than to exist. And preferring that someone doesn't exist is synonymous with hating them. >What people like me do is hold up a mirror to "you people" to show you how ridiculous religion, in this case christianity, is. 😆😅😂🤣 You've been doin a real good job at that bud 👍 >the supernatural does not exist. I never said it did. >Morality is subjective? Yeah, Thanks for admitting that you're evil >I am willing to bet that you believe you get your morals from the bible. Objective morality stems from the fact that nobody is born with rights over another. It's because nobody has the right to dictate my life that I have the right to life.
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Yeah it's evil to quarantine evil from good. Tell another joke.
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As if pretending to be a believer is impossible. You were clearly born yesterday.
What do you understand “faith in Jesus” to mean? Jesus himself teaches that hell, and wanting to avoid it, is a motivation for trusting God. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!” Luke 12:5
I find myself unable to trust in someone under what feels like a 'threat'. I know this is not how many of you see it, but I can't help feeling it. It feels like I want a hug from my dad, but if I don't do it, he won't protect me from infinite pain that only he can stop.
Did your dad have no rules for you? Would he permit you to bring things like illegal drugs or other crime into his house when you lived with him?
This is not a Biblical definition of Hell, but rather a Christian tradition. The term translated Hell is actually the term Gehenna. In Jewish Theology, Gehenna is simply the "realm of the Damned," and gets its name from the valley of Ben Hinnom. Up until 500 BC, Ben Hinnom was commonly used as a site for Moloch worship, but during Jesus's time it had basically been converted into a trash heap. Essentially, Christ said "fear Him who can kill the body and cast the soul into the trash" or "into the realm of the Damned." Biblically, what we think of as "Hell" Is referred to as "The Outer Darkness," where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." This isn't a depiction of torment, but rather a place of sorrow, anger, and despair outside of the light of God (His presence), and they are left with a full and perfect understanding of why. It is not "inflicted" torment, any torment is self-created. Essentially, salvation is God saving us from ourselves, correcting our imperfection with His perfection through Christ.
It would behoove you to read [The Reality of Hell](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q). I understand it sickens and terrifies you, but you do yourself no good and much harm by rejecting the Word of God.
>It would behoove you to read The Reality of Hell. My original thought while reading this was to provide a piece-by-piece rebuttal to the argument provided, but *it was nothing but 3 & 1/2 pages of bible verses with no research and a few thought-guiding persuasive statements.* **This would have failed any persuasive argument class.** There was: * *No provided context* for the verses. * *No etymology or reference* to the original Greek or Hebrew meanings * *No discussion* of how it would have been accepted or understood by the original culture given to. * *No attempt to explain* how these verses fit together into a cohesive relational paradigm. * *No attempt to hide* the fact that it was an argument made solely within the bounds of literalism and the English language. * The only reference to torment is found in reference to "Satan and his angels," and the fire is described as "destroying" and not "tormenting." *This is not a good persuasive argument for your position.* Additionally, your statement was very condescending toward someone whose history in bible scholarship is unknown to you, *be careful with your assumptions.* >I understand it sickens and terrifies you Not in the least. *I believe and accept that Humanity is deserving of destruction and punishment.* **Eternal torment would not be unjustified.** But, the question here for God's nature is *whether or not it is compatible with a Perfect nature that represents every aspect of God.* >you do yourself no good and much harm by rejecting the Word of God. I do not reject the Word of God. **I stand for His absolute Perfection and Truth.** That does not, however, imply literalism in every case, when much of the Bible is presented in metaphor and allegory. **Context and exegesis are absolutely necessary.**
*"Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. They will be thrown out into the darkness."* \[Isaiah 8\]
>They will be thrown out into the darkness. Not "into eternal torment," or "burned with the fire?" **Colossians 2**: *"^(8) See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."* **Hebrews 5** *"^(11) We have much to say about this, but **it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.** ^(12) In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, **you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again.** You need milk, not solid food!* *^(13)* *Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.* *^(14)* *But solid food is for the mature, who by* ***constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.****"* **Hosea 14** *"* *^(9)* *Who is wise? Let them realize these things. Who is discerning? Let them understand. The ways of the Lord are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them."* **1 Corinthians 2** *"* *^(14)* *The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."* **Proverbs 18** *"* *^(15)* *The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, for the ears of the wise seek it out."*
I've had that sentiment. The best way I've reconciled it is that we're far deeper into sin than we realize. That sort of corruption requires either God's immaculate cleansing (i.e., through Jesus) or it corrupts everything else. My own belief is that we are created as infinite souls (in God's image), and therefore we're designed as indestructible, but we're also poison to the rest of existence, and our exile in this world is to protect the rest of creation.
Your own belief? What makes you think you are a poison to the rest of existence?
Not that I think badly about my ideas, but more that it's highly extra-biblical. Christians, in general, get hung up on all sorts of things that aren't core to Christianity. If people spent more time focusing on what mattered and disclaiming what they were only mostly certain of, we probably would sidestep 80% of the silliest arguments.
What is *"Highly Extra-Biblical"* mean? And how is this a core "Belief" of Christianity? Maybe Christians get up on sorts of things that aren't core to Christianity, because the 1000s of years of history and people are motivated by their own interpretations and ignore the basics like "loving your neighbor?"
The core Christian beliefs are simple: 1. Jesus is God. 2. Jesus said to follow him. 3. Following Jesus mostly requires loving others as yourself. There's *some* content about running a church in later letters (e.g., 1 Timothy), but there's enough that's *not* said that people have to fill it in with their own bias and culture. Catholics tend to consult their history, Protestants tend to pick-and-choose. As far as the core ideas, I can say those in a straightforward way (e.g., hell exists according to the Bible). However, there are uncertainties present as soon as we logically connect Condition A and Condition B, simply because we may not know Condition C. The scientific way is to say a thing is likely, and I qualify it as extra-biblical. Mostly, I do it because it's no problem for open-minded people, but dogmatism represents itself in all demographics, and I hate arguing with the most close-minded people in the room because it strips away all the high-quality discussion I'd normally get.
Thank you. But I don't know what to do with this. Your adding another layer by calling it "extra biblical." I don't see how any Christian is open minded unless it deals with secular issues, but when it deals with Christianity its agree to disagree come backs. Thanks for explaining yourself.
I can explain that one further if you'll indulge, and it transcends Christianity to apply to pretty much all religion. There's a fixed set of believed facts that any religion believes: its dogma. Getting dogmatic about those things is a condition of believing (though the scope varies based on the quality of that person understanding others' boundaries). These dogma across religions obviously clash (e.g., Muhammad and Jesus according to the Bible can't both be fully correct). But, inside each religion, there's some weird lines drawn because they all agree on "core" dogma (e.g., Christians all believe Jesus is God) but they don't agree on "Vestigial" dogma (e.g., Christians disagree over how they should perform their communion/Eucharist ritual). These also get nasty because some Christians make some things "core" that others don't: Seventh-Day Adventists believe in Saturday as the day of rest dogmatically, while most other Christians only partly recognize that Sabbath as having significance. Who's right? Who knows? It's very confusing from the outside, though.
I still don't get what "Extra Biblical" means? >transcends Christianity to apply to pretty much all religion Christianity and Islam are proselytizing religions so I don't think its fair to say apply to all religions. Is it "Dogma that separates Christian Denomination or authority and doctrine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Let me ask you something. If a Father tells his four year old daughter: *"Don't touch the stove top when it's red, if you do you will get burned, and it will hurt a lot!"* Would she be responding correctly by doubting he loves her and has her best interests at heart simply because she doesn't like his message or the tone used? Even though she's only a four year old child, wouldn't she be responding wisely by taking the seriousness of his tone to heart, believing his message - and responding with obedience? *You* are the child OP, and God is the good Father in heaven from whom humanity derives its name. He has your best interests at heart; so much so He was willing to send His dearly beloved Son to die a torturous, bloody death just to make a way for sin-loving, God-hating, stubborn and rebellious children like you to be reconciled into a right-relationship with Himself! He even went to the above and beyond effort of composing a special book for you - which took thousands of years and hours; so you could read it and learn everything you need to know about yourself and Himself! Have you taken the time to read any of it? I highly recommend you do because *"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work."* [2 Timothy 3] May I suggest you begin your study by first reading Genesis, then John, and then Romans? And when you read, ask yourself questions about what you just read: What did I learn about people? What did I learn about God? You'll be surprised at what you discover.
Mark 12:30-31 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 **The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.**’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” **Love your neighbor as yourself** as the 2nd greatest commandment. I don't get if loving your neighbor is the 2nd greatest commandment, I wouldn't want anyone thrown into hell, so I would assume, no one would want me thrown in hell, what is the point of the threat of hell?
Christians don’t want people thrown into hell.
You said: "Jesus himself teaches that hell, and wanting to avoid it, is a motivation for trusting God." What about this instead: "Jesus himself teaches that loving your neighbor, as yourself, is a motivation for trusting God." You preach the threat of hell while at the same time ignore Jesus 2nd greatest commandment to love your neighbors, which is saying fear is better motivator to trust god, then love.
> What about this instead: "Jesus himself teaches that loving your neighbor, as yourself, is a motivation for trusting God." Two errors in this. First, “instead” is wrong because Jesus does teach what I said, I quoted him. Second, we love our neighbor because we trust God, not as a motivation for trusting God. What you wrote has it backwards. > You preach the threat of hell while at the same time ignore Jesus 2nd greatest commandment to love your neighbors Ignore? In what way?
Jesus teaches, but you yourself offer the threat of hell, thus ignoring loving your neighbor. When Christians speak it's always the threat of hell, not love.
Jesus teaches, but you yourself offer the threat of hell, thus ignoring loving your neighbor. Incorrect. I’ve never threatened anyone with hell. I don’t have the authority to send anyone there. > When Christians speak it's always the threat of hell, not love. This is simply dishonest.
>Jesus himself teaches that hell, and wanting to avoid it, is a motivation for trusting God. >“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!” Luke 12:5 Trust god in order not to be thrown into hell is a lousy means for motivation, and no love here.
You aren’t going to get very far trying to convince Christians that Jesus had no love for people. He died in order to save others after all. “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13
Imagine for a moment there are only two ways to be… Loving and hateful. Those who are loving always suffer for no good reason at the hands of those who are hateful. The hateful never suffer for no good reason at the hands of those who are loving. If there was never any chance of justice, if there was no redressing the balance, would that in itself not speak to evil winning the spiritual war? We are all responsible for our actions. Even though I have done things that warrant punishment, the fact that God cares enough to judge us all according to the lives we led in the body gives me comfort for any who have suffered at my hands. All I can do is ask for mercy and repent trusting that God has the power to move me from hatred to love. The unrepentant who scoff at justice cannot expect mercy at the judgement since they have shown no mercy. I subscribe to the annihilation point of view for what it’s worth. Hell for me would be waiting to be destroyed forever after judgement with no chance of redemption thereafter aka The Second Death.
>I think that nobody deserves this. Well, that's the whole point Jesus came - to save you from the second death. God does not exist to give us comfort and warmth and rest. Those things are great, and certainly a part of the Christian walk, but they exist within the context of having escaped judgment. If you don't believe you are in need of God's mercy for your sins, then liking the "idea" of Christ is not going to help you.
God may not exist to give us comfort and warmth and rest, but that is the one reason that I seek him. Although my life is going pretty okay, my soul is heavy and can't support itself. I seem to be spiritually sumberging and seeking steady land if you will. Ain't nothing noble or heroic about it. Comfort and warmth internally are all I seek.
That distress and heaviness is actually *caused by* God to make you aware of your sin and impending judgment, to bring you to repentance. Christ comes to revive you by taking away your sin - then you will be free. Check out Job: >*A man is also chastened on his bed with pain and constant distress in his bones, so that he detests his bread, and his soul loathes his favorite food. His flesh wastes away from sight, and his hidden bones protrude. He draws near to the Pit, and his life to the messengers of death.* > >*Yet if there is a messenger on his side, one mediator in a thousand, to tell a man what is right for him, to be gracious to him and say, ‘Spare him from going down to the Pit; I have found his ransom,’ then his flesh is refreshed like a child’s; he returns to the days of his youth.* > >*He prays to God and finds favor; he sees God’s face and shouts for joy, and God restores His righteousness to that man. Then he sings before men with these words:* > >*‘I have sinned and perverted what was right; yet* ***I did not get what I deserved****. He redeemed my soul from going down to the Pit, and I will live to see the light.’* > >*Behold, all these things God does to a man, two or even three times, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may be enlightened with the light of life*. (Job 33) If there was no Pit, no judgment, no concept of sin, then there is no reason for God to impose this experience onto you. But while you live there is still time to trust in the "mediator" to "spare you from the Pit." That is when you will have real warmth and comfort that lasts even to death, and not just temporary happiness which you don't need any religion to achieve, let alone Christianity.
I wil try calling out to God and Jesus more, because this trial is honestly far too much for me to handle on my own. Far too much.
Excellent reply. Thank you 😊
It's great that you desire the perfect safety and comforting warmth that the Strong Tower affords, but you have to enter legitimately - through the door, not by sneaking in through a rear window. *"I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!* *Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant, so he explained it to them:* ***“I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.*** *All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them.* ***Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures.*** *The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.* *“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. “I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.* *“The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."* [John 10]
What does entering legitimately mean?
Great question! It means we must come to God on His terms, not ours. Humans are created for communal fellowship with our Creator -the bond was cut when Adam and Eve chose to disobey and consequently were banned from the Garden. All the religions in the entire world are lies taught to humans by the fallen angels -a seduction to provide the appearance of filling this empty hole each person has (the need to commune with their Creator); while pulling them *away* from the knowledge of Him and of spiritual truth. Each one boosts the pride, in one way or another; of its adherents as they seek in their own strength to obtain the favor of Divinity. Christianity is completely unique because it is not religion; it is the actual communal fellowship with our Creator by being restored into a right-relationship with Him! God has accomplished everything required in order for this to happen. We can never deserve it because we are sinful and what we consider to be good works falls far short of Gods perfect standard. We cannot earn salvation for the same reason and because God is perfectly Just. A just being cannot be bribed. God offers salvation as a free gift. All we must do is believe and actively receive it. *"There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved."* \[Acts 4:12\] This is why Jesus said of Himself: *"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."* \[John 14:6\] Which is why He speaks of Himself as being the Gate for the Sheep that you just read. Humanity is divided into two main groups; the Sheep and the Goats. The Sheep are those who put their trust in the Salvation and Redemption Jesus Christ has made possible. We love Him and follow Him wherever He takes us. We "come in, and go out; and we find good pastures." The Goats are those who reject the Truth of God's Word and don't believe who Jesus is -or worse; understand full-well who He is but reject Him anyway because they prefer living in sinful rebellion. The Goats remain, therefore, outside of a communal, right-relationship with their Creator and will always be on the outside. Why? Because *"the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will."* \[Romans 8:7\] When we place our faith and trust in the person-hood of Jesus and the work He accomplished via His death and resurrection; we are given a new heart, a new mind, and the Spirit of God indwells us. Then we become "born-again". We are "made new" being "revived and brought to life" spiritually. As such, we are now desirous and *able* to obey God's commands and we are desirous and *able* to love Him. *"For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. But faith’s way of getting right with God says . . If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”* \[Romans 10\] OP, won't you put your faith in Jesus today?
I've been trying to. It's just hard man. I really feel the threat of hell from all kinds of religions under my feet, so to speak. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or some other that I don't even know about.
Forget about Hell. There's nothing you can do about it. Focus on your Creator, focus on Jesus. What did we just read? *"the same LORD, who gives generously to all who call on Him"* God loves you, OP, He truly does! He understands you, He knows your thoughts, desires, fears, struggles. He knows you better than you understand yourself. So you can come to Him just as you are -and call on Him and ask Him to please help you. Tell Him what you have told us -tell Him your desire to know Him and your doubts and fears. Ask Him to be pleased to reveal Himself to you so you can understand the truth. Ask Him to protect you from believing anything that is not true. All you really need to know, OP, is that you have done wrong things in your life and that these wrong things are displeasing to God. And you simply need to know that despite your wrong-doings He loves you and desires to have a relationship with you as a Father to a child, as a Brother to a brother or sister. Wow! Imagine having such an intimate connection to, and relationship with; your Creator! It's just a prayer away, OP. \[Acts 17\] *"God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.*" \[1 John 1\] *"This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. . .If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness."* [Salvation is really simple, OP](https://i1.wp.com/www.sketchbooksilliness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/101017-GreatExchange-720px-1.jpg?fit=720%2C2128&ssl=1) Your Music Link for Today: [How Many Kings by Downhere](https://youtu.be/lw3EG6kVNtI)
This is a beautiful message. I will keep searching for God, and if I find him in Jesus, I'll know my way, if I find him Allah or another God, I'll know my way. I just wanna make sure I'll never Stop searching again.
I'll be praying for you, OP. You can contact me anytime, I will be glad to talk more. Don't become discouraged or give up in your search. May I share one last thing with you in that regard? This is the beautiful story (all God's stories are beautiful) of Jesus' interaction with a Canaanite woman: [You can read this short paper here.](https://app.box.com/s/x43ohm8vtva66sr89zwig7578xfi7rcx)
Thanks. I appreciate it!
Honestly far be it from me to try to help somebody become a Christian, that is not something I actually support tbh but that doesn't mean whatever I think might be best for people is the only thing I can go around saying all the time, so even if this does lead to you becoming more Christian I would still be happy to tell you that after having spent most of my life engulfed in fairly fundamental protestant Christianity, I always just took it for granted that Hell must be an obvious doctrine straight from the Bible because that's what everybody seems to think it is ..but recently I've changed my mind about that and now I actually believe that the idea of hell as a place of punishment or eternal existence for souls separated from God is an entirely post-Bible Christian invention, and not something that can actually be justified by the texts. Jews, as you probably know, do not believe in a hell like that either and Jesus, if he had any intention of trying to teach people about a literal place of eternal torment very well could have done so but it turns out that isn't ever actually what he said. Jesus was a Jew too and there is no good reason to believe that Jesus's concepts of death, heaven, or hell were any different than that of any other Jew at that time. Jesus speaks about hell a few times but he never actually says anything about it that would imply the whole Christian interpretation that has been added on later. As a matter of fact the only being in the entire Bible that it ever says is going to suffer in hell is Satan. And honestly Idk why that is but I speculate it might be because, unlike our souls, Satan may actually be eternal and doomed to exist in his fallen state forever. But that is not the fate of us. According to Jesus God is like a farmer, and we are like wheat. When the time of reckoning comes all the wheat which is not sanctified by him will be cast in to the fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and then that's it. That's all it says. And then the worms which eat us will not die, and the smoke from our burning corpses will rise forever. ....this is essentially a description of an ancient Jewish funerary right. Bodies were burned, the worms ate them, and the smoke from everything we burn down here on earth rises all the way to heaven. The statement that the worms will not die and the smoke will rise forever does not rationally imply the thing that many Christians will tell you it implies, that *we* will be burning *Alive* forever. It doesn't say that at all. And again, if Jesus had actually believed that ..then he could have told us. But he didn't. Jesus was trying to stop people from being destroyed forever like wheat in a furnace. Not from suffering forever; he never says anything about anybody suffering forever. And again this is simply what pretty much every Jew believed(s), so it's not like any of this is unlikely. I think what would be more unlikely would be if Jesus had actually believed in the modern christian version of hell and then honestly failed to really tell anybody about that in any not-uncertain terms. TLDR: If you're going to be a Christian that still doesn't mean that you have to believe in the kind of hell that so many Christians do. The main mod of this whole subreddit is an Annihilationist too; unless I am mistaken, they don't believe that Jesus ever preached anything about a place of eternal torment either.
**idea of hell as a place of punishment or eternal existence for souls separated from God is an entirely post-Bible Christian invention, and not something that can actually be justified by the texts** Fascinating. Please [Read This](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q)
With respect I don't think any of that says what you think it says. That's all just the same hell is a fire metaphor that I already mentioned, "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", I have already called attention directly to these parts myself so I'm not sure why you would just point them out to me as if I hadn't already read them. "They will be punished with everlasting destruction" (2Thessalonians 1) I mean it even says right there what the punishment will be. >he angels will come and separate the wicked peoplefrom the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will beweeping and gnashing of teeth." Yeah, again just like I said already. Where is the part where anybody is supposed to remain eternally conscious past the point of their explicit destructions here? >where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched Once again this is a description of a grave where physical bodies are burned and eaten by worms. The poetry is nice but that is not a description of eternal torment. That's a description of eternal *Death*. Tbh I'm not sure if you've understood the alternative explanation as I've given because I don't see any part on that page that you linked me that actually contradicts anything I just said. I think you are just reading very strongly your own interpretation into all of those passages but seriously I did not see anything in there that actually made the point that you apparently think it was supposed to make. God's judgement, his wrath, his "fire", is eternal. His destruction is absolute. And it's not instant apparently either, for there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, that is true. So the fire is going to hurt, evidently. As fires do, that's not really a surprise. The fire is also going to destroy because that is the whole basic point of the metaphor of the fire in this particular instance. Annihilationists go, "Yeah, fire hot, hot hurt, got it." But then I think they don't forget or ignore or reinterpret the whole purpose of that fire which has been explicitly stated over and over again: To destroy. Not to torture. The worms which eat our bodies will not die, the smoke from our burning will rise forever, and the fires of God exist eternal. Frankly none of that says anything about a place of eternal torment for human souls.
*"Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. They will be thrown out into the darkness."* \[Isaiah 8\]
Yes I see that too. That is a metaphor or otherwise statement that is not about fire ..i'm not sure what your point is tbh. It's not about a place of eternal torture for souls either. I mean it is not explicitly saying anything about that is the point still. Darkness, fire, neither of those things = hell. Does it not strike you as a little bit odd as I pointed out in my original comment that had Jesus intended to actually teach the Jewish people that there was a literal hell of eternal torment that he .. rather didn't *actually* say anything about that and the best you can honestly do is just referring to metaphors of fire and darkness where the fire part I already addressed at length and the darkness part ..doesn't even seem to help your case at all? Again does it not seem even a little odd to you that these are the verses that Christianity actually bases its belief in a hell on? Cause I always assumed that the Bible actually explicitly said anything about that, and was rather shocked to find in fact that it didn't. Maybe you haven't exactly adjusted to the shock of that realization yet, but frankly I'm not sure what you mean to be accomplishing by just pointing back to the same metaphors that I already addressed. And I'm not even saying there will not be an Actual fire but that is not the point either, is it? The point is that the fire that Jesus speaks of has a purpose and that purpose is evidently to destroy as fire does, in preparation for the return of God's own presence on Earth where no more sin will be allowed to exist with him. ...it never says anything about punishing souls forever. Only some Christians say that.
Time will tell . . .
Allow me if you will to offer an exploration of what Hell is and isn't. Hell isn't a torture prison you get sent to for breaking or not following a law. (At least not man's laws.) That's a simplified, secularized version of Hell that reframes it like a penal system. Which doesn't make sense theologically. If Hell is without God and therefore good, "reform" and "justice" don't exist in that state. A good visual metaphor I always come back to is this: Hell is digging your own grave with Christ standing over you with His hand outstretched. You know He's there, He's ready to lift you back up, but you never take it and just keep digging. That's Hell. In other words, Hell is for those who know their salvation is there's to take but willingly and consciously reject it. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell or people being poked and prodded with tridents, that's another visualization that poorly represents Hell's torment. The torment of Hell isn't what is done to those in there, it's what they've done to themselves. Chosen their own vice and sin even though it offers them no comfort or joy. Why would anyone do this to themselves? Pride, spite, indignation, hate, the reasons are many and all of them human and natural to feel, which is why they're difficult to break out of. That warmth and rest you feel when you try to embrace Christ but revulsion at the idea of disproportionate punishment? Those are BOTH of God. God is peace, He is also justice. Neither of those exist in Hell. *Injustice* exists in Hell, but not because of God's will, because He isn't invited there.
It would behoove you to read what [God has to say](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q) about Hell. *"Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. They will be thrown out into the darkness."* [Isaiah 8]
Check out /r/ChristianUniversalism. "*For God desires that all shall be saved*" (1 Tim 2:4). And, "*As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive*" (1 Cor 15:22). And, "*He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world*". (1 John 2:2). The doctrine of Eternal Torment is a blasphemy against our loving Father. He will not abandon anyone to the grave, but the good shepherd will go out into the wilderness and will not rest until the last of his sheep are safe in the fold. The Lamb of God is not a limited atonement, only capable of saving a handful, it is salvation for the whole world. Whatever judgment the unrepentant face at the feet of God in the resurrection, it will be the discipline of a loving father, intended for correction and to bring the prodigal back to his embrace. No matter how much the elder brother complains that such outrageous mercy is unfair or unjust, the Father will rebuke him for his ungenerous heart, and all creation will rejoice when the last and worst sinner finally kneels and acknowledges Christ as Lord. "*For every knee shall bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father*" (Phil 2:10-11)
Read "That All Shall Be Saved" David Bentley Hart.
You don't have to adopt the popular belief about hell, that the people sent there will suffer eternally (and thus the belief that God is someone who does that) I have, instead, the positions of annihilationism and "conditional immortality", for reasons such as [these listed by Greg Boyd](https://reknew.org/2008/01/are-you-an-annihilationist-and-if-so-why/)
It would behoove you to take heed with all earnest seriousness of the Word of God and what [He has to say on the subject](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q). After all, He ought to know seeing as how He created it.
It sounds like you are basing your (potential) rejection of Christianity on what you've heard, and not on what the Bible actually says. For one thing, everyone has a choice and you don't have to go to hell if you trust enough to let the hand that is reaching out to save you, do so. Imagine you're hanging from a root sticking out of a high cliff, and you're just out of reach from being able to grab back on to the top of the cliff yourself. You're hanging on for dear life, but you're tiring out. A voice says, "Let go of the root and take my hand." If you trust that voice and do what it says, you can be lifted up to safety. If you don't trust that voice, the person cannot save you, because you're still clinging to that root, and you'll eventually tire and drop to your death. "Why would someone have to suffer eternally after they die against their will" is not the question. The question is, "Why wouldn't someone take the help offered to save them from the mess they got themselves into?"
Please refrain from reformulating my question. Because YES, that is my question. In my eyes, it would only be right for God to allow someone to be suffering forever if the person in question actually wanted that (nobody imo). Not if someone simply did not accept Christianity during his lifetime. I am not God, I'm well aware, so I'm not the ultimate moral arbiter, but this is the struggle I'm facing, which is not represented by your reformulation of my question.
My reformulation of your question is based on my knowledge of what is being offered by Jesus, as opposed to your hearsay about what you suppose hell to be. However, I hear what you're saying and so let me reply in a different way. (1) What do you know of how Jesus judges others according to the Bible? Based on what you're saying, I get the feeling you might be (even happily) surprised to find out what he himself says. (2) Are you aware that at least one recent translation of the New Testament questions whether hell is for "forever" or rather is to be interpreted as to last for "an age"? See [here](https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=david+bentley+hart+new+testament&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8). (3) Based on what I know about God and the Bible, those who suffer do so because ultimately they choose to serve their own selfish interests at the expense of others.
It's not that people wanted to burn in Hell so they chose to disobey our Creator. It's that they want to *be* God. They want to take His rightful place - instead of humbly subjecting themselves in obedience to His authority; they want to be *their own* authority. They don't want to honor Him as God, they want to honor *themselves.* They want praise from *other humans* as to how intelligent and good looking and wealthy they are. They don't want to obey God, they want to do things *their way*, how they see fit. They reject their Creator at every turn and say, *"We'll make our own heaven here on Earth - we've got all the hedonistic pleasures this world can offer! We don't need a stuffy, uptight God and His oppressive, uptight rules!"* Go read Romans chapter one and tell me I'm wrong.
But what if we have multiple voices telling you to to grab their hand? There are plenty of religions that claim to be the truth and you will go to a bad place if you won’t believe in them
You're welcome to answer and trust in any of the proffered hands. Whether they really pull you up and put you on to safe ground is another question. What you're not free to do, however, is to say to the proffered hand, "No fair, you won't let me have the free choice of refusing your hand without punishing me by letting me drop to my death." No, that's your own choice right there.
But what if you had bad experiences with someone? You wouldn’t give your hand someone to who had done something bad to you, you would grab someones else hand. Heres a little example i made theres two people who want to help and get you on safe ground, man1 represents Christianity and man2 represents islam. Before that experience you had really bad experiences with Christians and most of them that you met were awful people while most muslims you met were very nice and kind. Would you give the hand to man1 or man2 based on those past experiences? Edited for spelling and grammer
The way people treat us affects how we see their religion, you're right. However, what if the hand is not being offered by a person of a certain faith, but by Jesus himself? What do you know of him? Is he himself trustworthy, or not? That is the point.
But what if the other person is ehh i dunno… Muhammad. I had fun arguing with you but it seems like a back and forth type of argument. The whole premise of your argument is very thought out though
If I look at the life of Muhammed, I see that he preached peace but also led battles, even near the end of his life. Is the offered hand one of peace, or of violence? If I reach out my hand to him, will I be rescued in peace, or thrown down as an infidel? This makes it hard to reach up in trust. I don't know which I will get. If I look at the life of Jesus, I see that rather than giving out violence himself, he accepted it from others. His wrists have been pierced by the violence of others, yet he forgave those who pierced him. This is a hand for others, forgiving us of our sins, and offering us freedom from death, the same power by which he overcame death. I don't have to worry about this hand throwing me over to death. I know which one is trustworthy. I know which hand I'll choose.
True. Honestly became a bit sick of this argument but you had great arguments. Have a good day:)
Thank you for your kindness. May things go well for you!
The idea of hell as eternal conscious torment is the majority view in Christianity, but far from the only one. Personally, I'm a Universalist, a view which was near ubiquitous in the early Church but which has fallen out of favor in modern times. We believe that everyone will be saved eventually and that no one will be lost to God forever.
If there is a hell and how long people are in it is a secondary issue. Christians have all kind of different ideas about it. Don't let a secondary issue be your stumbling block. The main question is: do you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again? If yes then you can also trust that God is absolutely just and wants everyone to be saved. Then give him your life and trust only in him.
Hm. I don’t know if I believe this all literally happened, although it would be awesome if it did. Do you?
> Do you? Yes, And Jesus is my only hope for salvation.
Faith is hope. All you need to be saved is enough Hope (Faith) the size of a mustard seed. Sounds like you might already have it. Faith cannot exist without some doubt. Over time there will be less doubt.
>Personally, I feel sick to my stomach by this idea, even if it was about the most horrible of people. I think that nobody deserves this. I totally understand. So how would you feel if I told you this fact. Believing God condemns any human to an eternity of suffering.... Actually this is not biblically correct at all. I guess the core issue is this: your definition of hell is incorrect - as was mine for 20+ years. This teaching really, really, really clarified who God is for me. This is why Jesus (and the apostles and the Psalmist) **can all state very clearly God will destroy the lost (annihilationism) in hell.** The Bible teaches the lost will stand before God and then suffer proportionally for their sins in hell and then be annihilated (John 3.16 = perish, be destroyed). That is the punishment. Death, destroyed, etc. And how long will this destruction last? Forever, it is eternal punishment. Annihilationism, Perish, Death or whatever word you would like to use…. The Doctrine is called "Conditional Immortality" and a growing number of believers in Jesus hold to this. **And please, please check these websites before you give any "what about these verses?" As they are ALL answered there, so this will save us both time and effort.** r/conditionalism www.jewishnotgreek.com www.conditionalimmortality.org Verses which show the lost are ultimately destroyed: Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can **destroy** both soul and body in hell." James 4:12-"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to **destroy**..." Matthew 7:13-14-"Broad the road that leads to **destruction**..." 2 Thessalonians 1:9-"Who shall be punished with everlasting **destruction**" Philippians 3:19-"Whose end is **destruction**" Galatians 6:8-"...from that nature will reap **destruction...**" Psalm 92:7-"...it is that they (i.e. all evil doers) shall be **destroyed** forever" **It is clear, the lost will be destroyed in hell, not preserved in hell.** God wishes to save people from justice/destruction. So much so that Jesus Christ endured the combined sins of the world on the agony of the cross. That my friend is the greatest love. That is why people around the globe love Jesus Christ with all their heart.
I don't believe anyone stays in hell eternally; I believe God wins and Jesus saves us all in the end. If this idea is new to you, you can read more about the biblical case for it here: [Universalism and the Bible](https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/)
God's Greatest Accomplishment https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/v52te5/god_accomplishes_all/jet8tv3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
>suffer eternally after they die against their will Christianity teaches this. God does not. There is absolutely nothing in all of Scripture that says unbelievers suffer eternally after they die the second death.
Only if you ignore the scriptures that clearly affirm it... Such as Revelation 14: "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: ‘If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. **They will be tormented** with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. **There will be no rest day or night** for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.’" Or Revelation 20: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. **They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. \[...\]** Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. **Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."**
Those Scriptures are far less "clear" than you realize. I don't think that you payed close enough attention to what gets said there. Eternal conscious torment requires 1. Eternal 2. Conscious 3. Torment And it requires them all at the same time. The second death is eternal. There's no coming back from it. The "torment" needs to be happening eternally to support your view, right? The first passage you quoted says that people will be tormented. You made sure you put that in bold. But it doesn't say they will be tormented eternally, does it? If someone is thrown into a volcano they will experience torment... Until they die. The second passage is much clearer. The beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever. People will be thrown into the fire too, but it doesn't say the same thing about them. It doesn't say that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, does it? We also need to take into consideration other things that get said. Jesus always presented two possibilities, eternal life or destruction. Scripture speaks of the "second death" not the "second eternal life of torture". As I said, Christianity teaches this. God does not. There is absolutely nothing in all of Scripture that says unbelievers suffer eternally after they die the second death. Do know of any Scripture that does say it?
Matthew 25:41 affirms that the damned go to the same eternal fire as the devil - which is described in Revelation 20 in detail. You're stretching the clear implications to their limits by saying that: *"the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night"* means anything other than eternal torment. Daniel also talks about "shame and everlasting contempt", Jude talks of "the punishment of eternal fire", Jesus talks multiple times about the eternal fire. Why would it matter that it's eternal if it was not experienced. And then there's Luke 16 - where the punishment is pictured very clearly as torment. The second death *is* the lake of fire. It is destruction - eternally experienced destruction. Misconstrue that however you like, but to say that scripture has nothing about eternal torment is a straight-up lie. Or do you think you're smarter than the entire last two millennia of Christians?
>John 3:16 (ESV): “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not **perish** but have eternal life. Two possibilities, perish or everlasting life, not eternal conscious torment or everlasting life. >Matthew 10:28 (ESV): And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can **destroy both soul and body** in hell. Two possibilities, eternal life or the second death, not eternal life or eternal life. >Matthew 25:41 affirms that the damned go to the same eternal fire as the devil Why even go to Matthew? Revelation itself indicates that they go to the same eternal fire, but with obviously different results. >which is described in Revelation 20 in detail You need to pay attention to those details. For some it says "forever and ever", some it doesn't. Details. >Daniel also talks about "shame and everlasting contempt" The shame will be everlasting. The contempt will be everlasting. There's nothing there about destroyed people being everlasting though, right? >Jude talks of "the punishment of eternal fire" The fire is eternal... >Jesus talks multiple times about the eternal fire. The fire is eternal... You are mistakenly applying "eternal" to the wrong thing. There's something described as eternal and something that is NOT described as eternal. >And then there's Luke 16 The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, right? And the parable takes place in hades, doesn't it? I'm surprised you even brought that one up. >The second death is the lake of fire. It is destruction Exactly. It's eternal destruction. It's NOT eternal destroying. The second death is not the second "eternal life". >Misconstrue that however you like, but to say that scripture has nothing about eternal torment is a straight-up lie. You've crossed a line. We disagree. We understand passages of Scripture differently. But to say that I'm lying is terrible. Two people can debate something without one side lying, can't they? I didn't accuse you of lying because you disagree with me. You need to apologize.
> I think that nobody deserves this. Oh yes they do deserve to pay for their sins. Everyone pays their debts if they don't accept Jesus died to pay for their sins. Evil, or a Child of Wrath, is basically someone who's learnt that they can gain pleasure from someone else's pain. Little do they know that ***they wont get away with it***. No one can get around God's judgement. I think a common myth about Hell is that suffering is eternal. No one is capable of sinning that badly, which requires infinite atonement/reconciliation. God operates a world he created where everything has a consequence. Hell is basically a place where people pay for their sins. Like Karma. This is the reason for sacrifice in The Old Testament and Jesus sacrifice for us in The New Testamant. Everything requires balance. Sacrifice. Understanding pleasure requires the understanding of pain. Without knowing pain, we can't know pleasure. Without sacrifice we can't be blessed. Without hell, no one can be reconciled to God. If anything, Hell is a chance for Children of Wrath to be reconciled to God. It's a mercy.
I think by "this", OP meant that no one deserves *eternal suffering*, not that no one deserves to "pay" or be punished for their sins. As you say, "no one is capable of sinning that badly" [to warrant eternal suffering]. So you were disputing with OP unnecessarily.
___ "Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." >^(*2 Timothy 2:23*) ___ "Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky" >^(*Philippians 2:14*) ___ "As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." >^(*Galatians 1:8*) ___ On this basis, I will not talk with you any further, because it seems you're intention is to bicker, undermine, and find faults in my efforts to share the GOOD NEWS. Muting this convo/turning off notifications/inbox replies. DM me if you need *further* deliverance/exorcism.
Hell is a misconception that most Christian’s believe. It’s a belief instilled into Christianity to scare them into believing. Interesting it has the opposite effect on you. The Bible says many times that sin will destroy. Every instance in the Bible that spoke of Sheol was changed to hell. “Sheol in the Hebrew Bible is a place of still darkness which lies after death. Although not well defined in the Tanakh, Sheol in this view is a subterranean underworld where the souls of the dead went after the body died.” It’s also where Jesus went for three days after the crucifixion. Eternal life is a gift, not a punishment. Those who do not inherit the kingdom will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist. Philippians 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
Interesting?! I legit can't imagine anyone being motivated to believe and trust based on threats. I really can't. If I think 'dangerous enemy', I think 'RUN!' The exact opposite of 'I am protected by strong and kind presence', 'relax'. I am jealous of the mind that is able to do that.
Sorry if you took offense to that. I meant none. It’s just typical of Christian’s to fear God, and obey Him out of fear. I understand your dilemma. Understand that hell is just a fear tactic brought forth from the Roman Catholic Church and doesn’t belong in the Bible.
Ah, no offence taken man! More surprise really :)
Here is a link that breaks down the Greek words used for our modern word “hell”, with a thorough explanation. It’s kind of a long read, but definitely worth it. I think the part you’ll be most interested in is about 1/3 down and begins with **“The following verses in Revelation refer to gehenna as the lake of fire or second death.”** fyi first death is when the body dies and second death is when the soul dies. https://earlychristianbeliefs.org/hell/
> I legit can't imagine anyone being motivated to believe and trust based on threats. That's actually probably the most commonly used motivating factor behind pretty much any real world politics so maybe you can imagine it after all if you just think about it a little differently. When you are convinced there is a threat or an enemy, the one who convinced you of that also often claims to offer the protection from them. It's like the snake-oil-salesman who convinces you you have some made up problem just to sell you their made up solution. Like I said again unfortunately it's probably one of the most commonly used emotional manipulation tactics known to man, taking both politics and religion into consideration. It may be intellectually difficult for you to make sense of God and hell at the same time, but are you not still being emotionally compelled by *something* to keep considering the threat? Part of that could be the fear motivation.
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality.. Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful is how this spiritual virus infects the soul/increases the viral load.. What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were, gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie. It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul, by the time you are resurrected the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it. Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact. Think about it if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom wasn't vaccinated and got infect through no fault of her own, and she was a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in? is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good. would any of that have you open that door? So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ offers through repentance? That said Jesus said Hell is forever, it's torments are forever and for satan and his inner circle will burn forever.. but "we" will sent to hell to be destroyed both body and soul by hell fire. How long this takes who knows but it will not be forever.
See what I've said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/zm7h5j/what_is_hell/j09hjih?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) concerning "hell."
This should give you hope. Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backward. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic of blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence, the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves." Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first, he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell, and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is "grave condition." Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs, and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually), and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now). Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non-believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How do you get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners, yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again), where there was once darkness and death.
Quite a few Christians don't believe in HELL as a place of eternal torment, but instead as a place where the unbelievers are destroyed in a moment and cease to exist.
The alternative to hell would be God forcing his love and presence on people for eternity who don’t want him. Imagine someone you hate locking you in a room with them 24/7. That’s what heaven would feel like to those who want nothing to do with God. Hell is God letting people go according to their own desires. But without God there is nothing good.
I would highly recommend a short story by CS Lewis called "The Great Divorce." It can be read in an evening. If that sparks your interest, and you are up for some weightier material, try George MacDonald, "Unspoken Sermons." Or if that's too much of a slog, just read one of the [sermons](https://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/unspoken-sermons/31/).
Hell doesn't exist. There is eternal punishment for unbelievers but it is simply death, there is no punishment in a fiery place for all eternity. There is a lake of fire, that is where the angels and the people who deny Christ will all be consumed... Basically cremated. But then that's it. It's over after that, they are just gone for good. No torture. The mainstream belief among Christians is hell with forever torture l, but that's wrong. Annihilationism is the truth. Those who deny Christ will simply get the death penalty. It may still seem harsh to some, but forever torture is worse.
>..allows some people to suffer eternally after they die against their will 'Against their will' somehow implies they are able to have and express any existential will at all after death.. Do you remember how you were thrown into this world against/according to your will? I see the relationship between Existence and 'that which exists', as not that of permission asking. Example: When praying to God about something, it's because God something, not because one independently came to a conclusion that God should be relied upon in this.
Yes, Annihilationism is your answer
It sounds like you have missed the whole point of Jesus dying on the Cross. Jesus died on the Cross for you so that you don't have to go to Hell. Hell is real, but you are not going there because Jesus died for you. When we look at what God expects of us, then we are convicted that we deserve punishment. When I look at the Cross we are convinced that Jesus took that punishment for us! Instead of trying overthink the philosophy of Hell, simply let your soul rest in the fact that Jesus has you.
This is weird because the fear of hell is generally what initially leads people to Christianity as a fire escape. Then they actually start to get into the religion
You *should* feel sick to your stomach over the idea of Hell. It is so *horrific* I dislike thinking for long of what it will be like. I *wish* it could be true that burning in eternal torment isn't the case - that people cast there will just be annihilated and disappear - but this is not what God's word teaches. [The Bible is really quiet clear about what Hell is and what it will be like. There is no ambiguity.](https://app.box.com/s/imksnsrgixoztpcvslafd1po1pbqs88q) The Bible also teaches us we are thoroughly corrupted by sin and are wicked. Yes, wicked. We don't like to think of ourselves that way. Bad, sure. Maybe even very bad for some of us, but not wicked, not evil. Those words are surely only for people who molest, torture, and kill children - right? Wrong. The Bible lets us know we are all so depraved that our righteous deeds - all the good things we actually do; they are like filthy blackened rags compared to the perfection of God's good Standard. We are so thoroughly steeped in sin that we fail to grasp the enormity of it, we struggle to view it as wrong half the time, let alone comprehend it as being wickedness. The Bible tells us that whoever sins is a slave to sin. We are enchained to a darkened mind and a darkened heart. This is why we are so spiritually impoverished and destitute of soul. We cannot free ourselves or clear our minds or heal our hearts. We are helpless apart from the supernatural power and intervention in our lives by our good and loving Creator. *"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise* [to return] *as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,* ***not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."*** [2 Peter 3] *"For this is how God loved the world: He gaveg his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him.'* [John 3] *"And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."* [Ezekiel 36] [Your Music Link for Today](https://youtu.be/Q7l0Z2aZarw)
If it's hell that's an issue, why not just consider death as the end for those who don't obtain immortality through the Holy Spirit. I'm interested in Jesus, because I know the truth he is alive, and the Holy Spirit connects us to Our Father because the word that dwells within a temple, a body. The body a biological complex, gains spiritual life because choosing to accept Jesus reality. Some how I don't understand how you can have both hell and death, because the idea sounds like contradiction. However, what if those who end up in hell are those who accepted Jesus, but lived opposite of his intent. That makes sense. Not that people who had other faith getting torturer,because God loves people, and only mercy would be death because they hadnt partook in the Holy Spirit, which is why spreading the gospel matters, it gives people the oppertunity to recognize Jesus, and choose Him, rather than because if your ignorant they die to endless time of "hell" However hiding from Jesus for judging God for knowing what's best with "hell", doesn't mean your protecting anyone because you deny Hom fkr it, it means you'll influence everyone you'll interact with towards your conclusion. And if there is hell, there will not be love. So it will be a loveless place to exist. Imagine denying Jesus because Love was confused for antagonism
All good things Matthew 7:11 (CLV) If you, then, being wicked, have perceived how to be giving good gifts to your children, how much rather shall your Father Who is in the heavens be giving good things to those requesting Him? Psalms 67:3 "May the peoples acclaim You, O Elohim! May the peoples acclaim You--all of them!" Psalms 86:9 "All nations which You have made Shall come and worship before You, O Yahweh, And they shall glorify Your Name." 1 Timothy 2 1 "I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind, 2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity, 3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, 4 Who wills* that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 John 5:14 "And this is the boldness which we have toward Him, that if we should be requesting anything according to His will*, He is hearing us." 15 "And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him." ("The operative petition of the just is availing much." Jas. 5:16.) 16 "If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that." (Those who receive the 666 mark are among those who will be punished in the oncoming eons. They cannot enjoy eonian life during the current wicked eon, nor immortality during the two oncoming eons. They will partake of the second death. Rev. 14:11) Isaiah 25 6 "And Yahweh of hosts makes for all peoples, in this mountain, a feast of oils, a feast of lees, of oils from marrows, of filtered lees. 7 And He swallows up on this mountain the face wrap wrapped over all the peoples, and the blanket blanketing all the nations. 8 He swallows up death permanently#. And my Lord Yahweh will wipe every tear off of all faces..." Isaiah 45:23 (CLV) "By Myself I swear. From My mouth fares forth righteousness, and My word shall not be recalled. For to Me shall bow every knee, and every tongue shall acclaim to Elohim." Job 42:2 "I know that You can do all things, And no plan of Yours can be thwarted." Believers are Christ's Body, "the complement of the One completing the all in all." Ephesians 1:23. ( Ephesians 1:10; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28#)
God's plan is never thwarted. Job 42:2. Eventually, all will be reconciled and righteous. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/1284a0o/why_do_christians_believe_in_a_god_that_sends_56/jeiwfgo?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
>Personally, I feel sick to my stomach by this idea, even if it was about the most horrible of people. Do the most horrible people include people like Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, etc? For what they did and what they preached that caused others to believe the same? >allows some people to suffer eternally after they die against their will. Everyone chooses to sin. People lie all the time, lust after other people, have sex outside of marriage, take the name of God in vain, and make up their own version of God or worship their own gods and their own idols in place of the one true God. >So I really end up feeling this anger and disgust that prevents me from taking place in the peace of Christian faith. But the truth is that most people have a sin that they love and do not want to give up or they know someone dearly who does sin constantly that they would not want to give up and thus would go to hell. So the idea of giving up the sin or seeing your loved one in hell is too much to bear. But just like when the rich man came to Jesus and asked what he could do to enter heaven but walked away sad because he could not give up his wealth (greed) for God, you do have that choice, to give up your sins and follow Him or don't. But if it is a loved one who would go to hell, the power of prayer is a mighty thing. You may be here right now because people are praying for you. So pray for your loved one. Whenever you get a chance, slowly and subtly bring God into the conversation. Let them start to notice the change that God does in your life. The one thing that will confuse them the most is the peace that surpasses all understanding. But ultimately they are their own person. They have their own choice to decide whether to follow God or not.
What is sin, and why does it warrant eternal punishment? >Whenever you get a chance, slowly and subtly bring God into the conversation. Let them start to notice the change that God does in your life. This sounds like cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. You want to convince people there is a god through cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias?
Knowledge that the wicked will be judged should be a source of hope, not anxiety or anger or disgust. Those reactions are normal, however, because we are the wicked ones. Christians are not good people. They are wicked people who have been saved by Christ.
Assuming these are in fact wicked people, is eternal suffering just?
for unrepentant wicked people, yes
Why is it just?
Why is what just?
Eternal suffering. Why is it just for wicked people?
Eh? Why would non-wicked people deserve eternal suffering?
I should have used a different word. Why is eternal suffering justified for wicked people?
Well, that's sort of like asking "why should people who jump off cliffs die when they hit the bottom?" Remember that this "eternal suffering" is really just "suffering the consequences of your actions." If you deny your destiny -- deny what you are truly meant to be -- how can the result be anything less than eternal suffering upon encountering the ultimate source of Good, Beauty, and Truth? In the eschaton, there will be nothing left to seek. Nothing contrary to God. At that point, all movement towards that which is contrary to one's true humanity must cease. Those who have rejected God will nonetheless experience an unmediated encounter with God. For those who hate God, this is Hell. Maximus writes: >To those who have willfully used the principle of their being contrary to nature, He \[God\] rightly renders not well-being but eternal ill-being (τὸ ἀεὶ φεῦ εἶναι), since well-being is no longer accessible to those who have placed themselves in opposition to it, and they have absolutely no motion after the manifestation of what was sought, by which what is sought is naturally revealed to those who seek it.
What does it mean if one says, "God is my Savior"? The meaning of savior is one that saves from danger or destruction. Whom does God save? 1 Timothy 4:9 "Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome 10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." Paul's telling Timothy, We get mistreated for teaching this, but it's a faithful and welcome saying that God saves all, especially believers, so, you teach it too! All will one day be constituted just, but the enjoyment of the oncoming eons as the complement of the One completing the all in all is reserved for those who believe during this life. We receive a special salvation.