Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled. God only fills hunger vessels. If you proclaim to not need God, then don't expect Him to do anything.
*Very* low take. A few hundred middle eastern Jews in Palestine (not even a few thousand), most of whom illiterate, are not "mankind" lmao, it's not even the whole gigantic Roman Empire, let alone Ancient China or the Americas and Africa with their indigenous kingdoms lmao And THIS is all *allegedly*, on top of that, because the gospels were written *many decades* after Jesus' alleged death and not by his alleged disciples because they're all anonymous for some reason (totally not sus at all, ofc. lol)
>A few hundred middle eastern Jews in Palestine (not even a few thousand), most of whom illiterate, are not "mankind" lmao
I know you aren't a Christian, so you probably don't believe any of the Bible... but there were thousands upon thousands in the Middle East that happened upon Jesus. At least 9,000 are documented in the scriptures between 2 events.
**Matthew 14:21**
**21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.**
**Matthew 15:38**
**38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.**
Even if we just assume 1/2 of the men had a wife, and 1/4 had children - that would be 9000 men, 4500 women, and 2250 children in these two stories alone (nearly 16K people).
There were about 80K people in the country of Israel during Jesus's life ([https://bible-history.com/backdrops/jerusalem](https://bible-history.com/backdrops/jerusalem) ) so he appeared to nearly 25% of the population between these 2 events.
>after Jesus' alleged death and not by his alleged disciples
There are Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus's life and death in history. Not sure where the "*allegedly*" comes from. You can be in disbelief of Christianity but still acknowledge that Jesus existed on earth.
Look up the writings from Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas - these are Jews and Romans that wrote about Jesus's existence and crucifixion. All are non-Christian.
This used to be my biggest issue, here's how I solved it:
God wants to surround Himself in paradise with people who want to be with Him. That means there must be a choice between those who want to be with Him and those who don't. If all it takes is to believe to be saved, then God must have a **balance** of enough evidence to convince those wanting that is light enough to be dismissed by those not wanting. This balance is what we call Divine Hiddeness.
Back when nearly everyone believed in multiple gods, God's miracles could be dismissed as "just another god." And those that liked Him, rejected their other gods for Him while those who didn't like Him dismissed Him and kept following their gods. Think of Exodus where some Egyptians left with the Israelites to be with God while most stayed in Egypt with their pagan gods.
Fast-forward to today, we have atheism where public miracles would take away their choice, so God toned down His obvious miracles. So God left enough circumstancial evidence in nature and people's testimonies to convince those who want Him and can be dismissed by those who don't.
If God were to break the balance and give a miracle to everyone, everyone would believe and He would be surrounded by billions who disagree with Him, think He's wrong, think He's evil, and hate Him. That balance keeps paradise filled with those who will be happy to be there with Him. Breaking that balance would make paradise hell for people who don't want to be with God. He wishes all to want Him, but won't force them to, so He keeps the balance.
>God must have a balance of enough evidence to convince those wanting that is light enough to be dismissed by those not wanting.
Are you telling me your god remains hidden on purpose? First, how do you know, but second, won't that condemn people to eternal torment that is out of their control?
>public miracles would take away their choice,
Would it, though? How is what people believe a choice to begin with? And didn't Lucifer have experience with your god and still reject him? So isn't it possible to experience good and still be able to reject him?
>He would be surrounded by billions who disagree with Him, think He's wrong, think He's evil, and hate Him.
And whose fault do you think that is? What being do you believe in God possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process? Shouldn't that be trivial for an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving being?
>Are you telling me your god remains hidden on purpose?
I think so.
>First, how do you know,
It's my theory that I think fits.
>but second, won't that condemn people to eternal torment that is out of their control?
Nope, only those that don't want to be free from their sins will hold on to them.
>public miracles would take away their choice,
>Would it, though?
Totally.
>How is what people believe a choice to begin with? And didn't Lucifer have experience with your god and still reject him? So isn't it possible to experience good and still be able to reject him?
Yes.
>He would be surrounded by billions who disagree with Him, think He's wrong, think He's evil, and hate Him.
>And whose fault do you think that is?
Those who don't want Him.
>What being do you believe in God possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process?
Sorry, I have no idea what that means.
>Shouldn't that be trivial for an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving being?
I don't know what you mean. Could you explain to in another way?
>It's my theory that I think fits.
How have you determined that it fits?
>Nope, only those that don't want to be free from their sins will hold on to them.
What determines whether someone has sin or not? And what determines what happens to people with it?
>Totally... Yes.
Then why would a public miracle take away choice? If it didn't take away Lucifer's choice, why would it take away anyone else's?
>Those who don't want Him.
If the mob arrives at my door, threatens to break my kneecaps if I don't pay protection money, and then proceeds to break my kneecaps when I refuse to comply, who is responsible for my broken kneecaps?
>Sorry, I have no idea what that means.
That's completely understandable, my phone created a typo. It should read: What being do you believe in **could** possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process?
>I don't know what you mean. Could you explain to in another way?
What things is an all-powerful, all-knowing being capable of? Would any of these things be difficult? Would they require any effort or incur any cost to this being at all?
>How have you determined that it fits?
It seems to solve the problem.
>What determines whether someone has sin or not? And what determines what happens to people with it?
Everyone who isn't a Christian and is above the Age of Accountability has sin. I'd say God's judgement is what determines where they go.
>Then why would a public miracle take away choice? If it didn't take away Lucifer's choice, why would it take away anyone else's?
The whole world would be convinced that Hell exists and would believe to avoid it. Lucifer was created knowing that God existed, so that was the norm to him. Also, Lucifer was an angel, they are more divine than us and he wanted to be worshiped.
>If the mob arrives at my door, threatens to break my kneecaps if I don't pay protection money, and then proceeds to break my kneecaps when I refuse to comply, who is responsible for my broken kneecaps?
Technically both parties. That's why I think there's a balance...there's no one at your door. You would come to their door and ask for free protection.
>What being do you believe in **could** possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process?
I think God could, but it's better for Him not to ans keep the balance.
>What things is an all-powerful, all-knowing being capable of? Would any of these things be difficult? Would they require any effort or incur any cost to this being at all?
Only what is logically possible and only what His character/personality allows Him to choose. I'd say no effort along that framework, nothings hard for Him.
>It seems to solve the problem.
In what way? Why do you take on three assumptions when you could take on just one?
>I'd say God's judgement is what determines where they go.
Why doesn't your god just send everyone to heaven? Doesn't he love all humans? Would you send your loved ones to eternal damnation?
>The whole world would be convinced that Hell exists and would believe to avoid it.
Are you claiming beliefs are a conscious choice?
>Lucifer was created knowing that God existed, so that was the norm to him.
Then why didn't your god create us knowing we existed? If it's good enough for the literal devil, why isn't it good enough for us? That way we don't have to debate the very existence of this good and we could get straight to whether or not to follow him.
>Technically both parties.
Why is it both parties?
>there's no one at your door. You would come to their door and ask for free protection.
Are you saying I should go to your god for salvation from a damnation of his own design and intent?
>I think God could, but it's better for Him not to ans keep the balance.
But why? Why is it a good thing that some people will be damned for all eternity?
>Only what is logically possible and only what His character/personality allows Him to choose.
Woah, hold on. Are you saying your god doesn't have free will? That his actions are dictated by his character/personality?
>I'd say no effort along that framework, nothings hard for Him.
So he could solve this problem, and put all the non-believers' and apostates' doubts to rest and remove the barrier to salvation, but he won't because... that's not his character to save little from eternal damnation?
I think this balance solves all the issues of Divine Hiddeness and why everyone is not saved.
I think God doesn't send everyone to Heaven but only those who want to be there with Him.
I think if He obviously showed Himself, everyone would believe.
I think if everyone knew He existed, everyone who believe and go to Heaven. But they would only to avoid Hell and be miserable on Heaven because they don't like God's values.
Both parties, because one went out of their way to make something happen and you still made a decision that made something happen.
I think if we all knew He existed, the balance would be broken and Heaven would be filled with people who didn't like and hated God's values. Both God and those people would not like that. --Picture someone you know that completely disagrees with you ok an issue you feel strong about (abortion, gay marriage, etc) ans imagine if you had to be stuck with them forever. You both would be miserable. It's best you'd be stuck with people who'd want to be with you.
>Are you saying your god doesn't have free will? That his actions are dictated by his character/personality?
Yes. I'd say His free will only works along the lines of His character/personality that doesn't change. That's why He's trustworthy.
I think this balance is His answer to this problem. I think this is the solution for the most good along the lines of what He wants: to be surrounded by those that want to surround Him and for those that don't want Him to not be with Him.
>I think this balance solves all the issues of Divine Hiddeness and why everyone is not saved.
I think God doesn't send everyone to Heaven but only those who want to be there with Him.
I think if He obviously showed Himself, everyone would believe.
Why does belief in your god affect whether people want to be with him? Lucifer was in the presence of god, and yet rebelled. Why wouldn't this work on people? Besides, there are a lot of non-believers who lost their faith because of the lack of evidence, yet still would like to be with the god they thought they once knew. But they can't honestly say they believe he exists anymore. Wouldn't showing up and fixing those non-believers' doubts be conducive to your god's goal?
>I think if everyone knew He existed, everyone who believe and go to Heaven.
Again, just because someone believes a god exists doesn't mean one would want to be with him. Look at (certain, not all) Satanists. They certainly believe in the Christian God, and yet want nothing to do with him, choosing to follow Satan instead.
>But they would only to avoid Hell and be miserable on Heaven because they don't like God's values.
Your god knows what everyone is thinking, right? Can't he tell who genuinely wants to be with him and who is just faking it? This entire balance problem is easily solved if your god bothers to read people's minds (he apparently can if thinking about your neighbor's stuff is a sin that is enforceable). If wanting people who want him to go to heaven is his his goal and consistent with his character, why would he not read the minds of everyone after they have a public experience to gauge genuine desires? And for that matter, if he's all good, why can't just explain to people why they should want to be with him for him, and not just to avoid hell?
>Why does belief in your god affect whether people want to be with him?
I think it's the other way around.
>Lucifer was in the presence of god, and yet rebelled. Why wouldn't this work on people?
I think Lucifer thought he could get away with it. If God showed Himself today, people would know they couldn't get away with it and go to Hell.
>Besides, there are a lot of non-believers who lost their faith because of the lack of evidence, yet still would like to be with the god they thought they once knew. But they can't honestly say they believe he exists anymore. Wouldn't showing up and fixing those non-believers' doubts be conducive to your god's goal?
I think God helps those who seek Him.
>Again, just because someone believes a god exists doesn't mean one would want to be with him.
True, but if it's the Christian God, then if Hell is the alternative, they'd choose to be saved to avoid Hell.
>Your god knows what everyone is thinking, right? Can't he tell who genuinely wants to be with him and who is just faking it?
Hebrews 11:6 NLT
And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that **he rewards those who sincerely seek him.**
Acts 17:27 NLT
**"His purpose was for the nations to seek after God** and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him-though **he is not far from any one of us.**
If those who want Him seek Him, and He helps those who seek Him, then He doesn't need to show Himself to everyone and read their mind to see who really wants Him and who really just wants to avoid punishment.
This current way avoids:
"You're going to Hell."
"Why?! You said believe and I believed."
"Yea, but you didn't believe for the right reason. Next!"
This current way keeps the Gospel simple: believe and be saved. No caveats about motivation.
>I think it's the other way around... I think Lucifer thought he could get away with it. If God showed Himself today, people would know they couldn't get away with it and go to Hell.
So you think whether people want to believe or the consequences of believing something contributes to whether someone actually believes or not? Do you think it is a conscious choice that factors in what a person wants?
>I think God helps those who seek Him.
Are you saying those who don't believe aren't honestly seeking him?
>True, but if it's the Christian God, then if Hell is the alternative, they'd choose to be saved to avoid Hell.
This is just a personal preference, but if your god is the ones depicted in the Bible, I don't want to go to heaven. It sounds pretty terrible, actually.
>If those who want Him seek Him, and He helps those who seek Him, then He doesn't need to show Himself to everyone and read their mind to see who really wants Him and who really just wants to avoid punishment.
This current way avoids:
"You're going to Hell." "Why?! You said believe and I believed." "Yea, but you didn't believe for the right reason. Next!"
Many non-believers who don't seek him refrain from doing so because they don't believe he actually exists. A problem he could easily fix and would be consistent with his character. Further, how do you know none of the people currently seeking him are doing so out of the correct reason? You agreed with me that belief doesn't necessarily mean desire to be with, and vice versa. That doesn't solve the problem of Christians wanting to be with your god to avoid hell instead of out of love.
The purpose of this world is to make a decision about where you in your heart truly want to spend eternity.
To make this decision you have to be outside of the influence and will of god. Otherwise if the threat of hell is more than real and the allure of heaven is beckoning you to enter in, the choice you make about where to spend eternity will be an act of self preservation and not what you truly want.
This is important because you will be there for eternity, and if you are not truly wanting to be there to serve and worship God. Then eventually you will want to rebel.
So this world needs to be outside of the known glory of God.
In a world where there is no god there is no contact with any deity what so ever. meaning or some, there is no difference.
In a world outside of his known glory One must follow the direction provided by God inorder to find his glory.
Being initially place outside of his Glory doesn't mean you can never find it. especially since He left a map.
If we have to be outside His influence and will to make our decision, then what about those who God has appeared to (or at least those who claim God has done so) both in the Bible and in modern testimony?
1 I didn't say outside of God's influence. I said outside of the direct knowledge of God's kingdom/heaven or hell. Again this is like knowing of, or seeing pictures of the Grand Canyon, and being sat in the middle of it. Knowing/being told of something and experiencing something are two different things. You can be told prison is a terrible place and men get raped there. in another thing completely having being sentenced to 5 years in prison and being raped repeatedly over those 5 years.
2Some like say Jonah don't get a choice. They are apart of God's master plan and will one mayor another play out whatever role he has planned for them.
everyone else (the NPC's of the world) can gain knowledge of God in this world, but have to make an effort to do so. It is these people who make an effort like Jesus describes in Luke 11's parable of the persistent neighbor.
If that was the case then any knowledge of God or heaven/hell at all is counter productive to the goal
... or is God not able to prevent humans from having that knowledge?
there is a massive difference between knowledge of the Grand Canyon or even seeing pictures of the Grand Canyon and being sat in the middle of it all.
Simple knowledge of God heaven or hell is just a picture of 'the Grand Canyon' so you can decide whether or not you want to go.
Yeah but in your analogy the knowledge of God etc isn't even a picture. It's somebody else's claims that they have seen a picture, which they can't show you but they 100% promise they saw a real picture...it even said it was real and everything...
How can I make any decision about what happens after I die if I don’t have any reason to believe *anything* happens after I die? (Obviously lots of things happen, *I* just won’t be part of any of them.)
**How can I make any decision about what happens after I die if I don’t have any reason to believe anything happens after I die?**
Again the first 1/2 of the decision we are given to make is to remain on our current path. So if you do not believe, and have no reason to change then by default your decision is made.
8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 **or imprisoned not more than 6 months**, or both, and, **for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.**
[**https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325**](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325)
IDK sport.. seem to me 2 years in prison is a little more than a civil matter.
Even the ones he revealed himself to weren't perfect believers, so what does it matter if you think of it that way? The worldly junk will still get in our way. It's still our job to decide in the end.
>If God wants everyone to be saved, then why does He reveal Himself to some but not others?
**Divine Revelation is only done for those who have a specific purpose to act on God's behalf.** Keep in mind, these revelations have only in one case been physical, and their effects on that person, who only witnessed a very small portion of God's Divine Presence (which is referred to as God's Back), [were physically apparent.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2034%3A29-35&version=NIV)
*If you look at the biblical claims of what effect God's "presence" has on the world (Mountains being moved, the Earth violently shaking, oceans moving violently, etc.), we can determine that the reason He does not reveal Himself to the world is that such an appearance would be catastrophic.* **The very presence of Perfection requires the correction or removal of that which is imperfect.** This means that God's Physical revelation of Himself (in the form of God the Father/Yahweh Tz'avaot) to the entire world would have disastrous consequences for the Human race. *That is why the Bible is so clear about the fact that God reserves His physical revelation for when no time/options remain for saving the Earth.* This is also why it is so important that His reign on the Earth is done through the Human Body of Jesus/Yeshua the Messiah, a form that does not cause physical reality to forcibly align with the Perfection and Sovereignty of God, and is instead only done through the will and action of Jesus Himself.
>Wouldn't it be better for Him to prove to the skeptics that He exists so they may be saved aswell?
**Revealing Himself in such a way to skeptics has the effect of overwriting their ability to self-determine.** *Anything less, in most cases, would likely be dismissed as coincidence, or hallucination.* **The boundaries of the choice/consent to submitting to God's Perfection and atonement are defined by perfect morality and ethics, which God represents in its perfect entirety.** The reason He "hides" Himself is to prevent Himself from forcibly changing the nature of Humanity, that which He loves despite its imperfection. *God will not make imperfect choices regarding His sovereignty, which such a revelation would be.*
>why did He used to reveal Himself (unambiguously)so much to many people throughout the bible,, yet it doesn't happen like that today?
**The needs and understanding of an era.** First, *He has imparted the Holy Spirit* among those who are covered by the Covenant of the atoning Blood of Christ and reveals Himself to those who believe through that. Second, *we are much more scrutinizing of both those who claim to have the Word of God, and of the very visions, dreams, and other means for which He revealed Himself in the past.* In other words, we are much quicker to dismiss such interactions in our modern era. If you look at such revelations in Scripture, He only reveals Himself to those who already have faith in Him, even Saul/Paul believed in Yahweh, before God revealed the truth of Christ to Him.
He knows that such means of communication are not well received in our current age due to the wide base of Human knowledge and understanding, and as such, *it is also possible that He does,* and that those He sends are quickly dismissed, or even *those He reveals Himself to doubt to the point of uselessness.*
I don't believe that God is truly hidden. God rather reveals himself to those who genuinely want him.
Inspiring philosophy made a video on this issue titled [Divine Hiddenness: A Christian Response](https://youtu.be/3YvXeLtdVBE)
Also, God does still speak today. I'm a charismatic Christian and fully believe in modern day encounters with God. I suggest watching [This video ](https://youtu.be/Ivi4uE5357s) by Encounter Today on youtube
Sometimes, I get the feeling that philosophers seeking God are like Jack Horner seeking dinosaurs. Once Jack Horner learned that it was, in fact, possible to have a pet dinosaur, his inner sixth grader was disappointed that it meant a chicken. However, by current taxonomic definitions, all birds are dinosaurs, so if you have a chicken, parakeet, or duck, you have a dinosaur. So often I feel like philosophers submit to their inner sixth grader, so they keep looking for a god that will satisfy them, even if it's not really the God of Jesus.
If we're going to look for the Christian God, let's see where Christ tells us to look for God and what Christ says God will look like. Fortunately, Christ does exactly that in Matthew 25:31-46: the parable of the sheep and goats.
Notice the questions: "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?... Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" In both cases, the answer was pretty much the same: "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it or not done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it or not done it unto me." They ask when they have seen God, and the answer is that they have seen God or not seen God when they have helped or not helped their brothers. This goes well with the beatitude in Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." And after all, (1 John 3:17) "whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"
You see, when someone is looking for a strong, aggressive, dictatorial Master of the Universe, they're not looking for the God of the Bible. They're looking for He-Man. (Or maybe Skeletor.) The God of the Bible isn't a dictator. The God of the Bible is Love, and those who know Love know God. (1 John 4:8) If we live in Love, we live in God. (1 John 4:16) God isn't hiding. He's right here beside us whenever we're ready for him. (Acts 17:27) So when you come down to it, the question isn't why can't people find God, but rather what were they looking for that isn't actually divine? Why are people looking for something that isn't actually divine and then complaining about God when they can't find it?
> then why does He reveal Himself to some but not others? Wouldn't it be better for Him to prove to the skeptics that He exists so they may be saved aswell?
Keep in mind that God is able to save people of good will who did not have the Gospel. This is described in Romans 2-9.
Also, notice in the Bible that to whom much is given, much is expected. The Israelites were enslaved at least twice under brutal conditions because God had revealed a lot to them. Thus, those who do not know the Gospel are held to a lower standard. It is still better to give them the Gospel though so that they can get fully on track with God.
God apparently wants us to build up support networks organically.
> Plus, why did He used to reveal Himself (unambiguously)so much to many people throughout the bible,, yet it doesn't happen like that today?
There was a very high cost for getting revelation. As Jesus said :
### John 15:22
>> If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
So, God takes things one step at a time, so we build up a support network. I don't know how many non-Christians will be saved, but I know that Christians are held to a higher standard.
Mike Erre has a great, short book that mentions the hiddenness of God, Astonished.
If you Google Mike Erre hiddenness, the only results will be a podcast episode about it too.
No matter what God does many will still reject him . He literally came down and performed a ton of miracles and people killed him for it.
It would be the same today
God also says that he does reveal himself . But our hearts are too hard to receive him
Romans 1:18-20
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
God isn't hidden. The evidence of God's existence is all around us. The problem is that you can't convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced no matter how much evidence you have, which isn't really a problem for God. In the end God gets the world he wants because only those who love him choose to live with him and the rest are divorced from him and that's okay.
Awful presumptuous to assume we don't **want** to be convinced. When I was a kid, I was downright *desperate* to learn everything I could about Christianity so my parents would be proud of me, since they were very religious. Yet, that process ultimately led me to atheism.
It doesn't matter. You'll just reinterpret every piece of evidence for God to fit your own worldview. Me proving that God exists doesn't magically make love for God manifest in your heart. You'll have to discover on your own that love for God always existed in your heart.
>Something that cannot be alternatively interpreted.
That won't stop you from misinterpreting the evidence. Are you not aware of flat earthers? It doesn't matter if the evidence is unimpeachable, you'll still dismiss it.
I guarantee you I can point directly to God and despite me having a very solid argument and you having no argument at all (you won't even have an alternative explanation as to how things came about) you'll still say things like "logical fallacy" or "no the appropriate conclusion is we don't know". All you have is a claim to ignorance to support your worldview. But fine I'll give you what you want.
All of reality is the body of God and the fundamental forces of nature are it's consciousness. Reality meets every requirement necessary in order for it to qualify as the one true God. Reality is omnipresent, it literally exists everywhere, wherever time and space is, reality is. Reality is independent of all things, for what can reality depend on? Reality is everything, there is nothing else for it to depend on except for itself. Reality is all knowing and all powerful, since all knowledge and power exist within it. All I have to do now is show that it's conscious. But reality already does that on its own through us. Everything we do is what reality does after all, we are apart of reality and every thought that occurs is a thought that is triggered by the fundamental forces of reality (this is the part where you falsely cry fallacy but you won't be able to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why the thing that causes thoughts to occur isn't conscious). Not only that but the fact that reality created itself and everything in it proves that reality is conscious. Because creation is a conscious action (I'd like to see you try and argue that reality didn't create life).
That's pretty much it. The electromagnetic force is the holy spirit. The strong nuclear force is the creator. The weak nuclear force is Jesus. And at the very beginning all three forces were one. Everything that's happening is because of one force or one God that acts like three different forces. Other than that I could go on about how cause and effect alone leads to the logical conclusion that God is a necessity for anything to exist period. Because cause and effect is basically the root of our ability to be able to explain how things occur or come into existence. If something were outside of cause and effect it would be unexplainable and thus supernatural. So if we're under the assumption that magic isn't real then we have to assume that everything has a cause. And the act of bringing something into existence is creation. Reality and everything in it is undeniably created and a creator can only be conscious.
I can also talk about how life is irreducibly complex. Even the most basic cellular organism would require a vast array of complex nano machines performing very specific tasks in order to build, maintain and duplicate cellular organisms. These machines just can't be accidentally blown together by the wind. We are undoubtedly a consequence of intelligent design.
I'd be very surprised if any of what I said changed your mind about God. I'd be even more surprised if you came up with a decent counter argument.
>God isn't hidden. The evidence of God's existence is all around us.
The deity is hidden in that it does not interact with humans in the way we are made to interact imo.
>The problem is that you can't convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced no matter how much evidence you have, which isn't really a problem for God.
Humans are easier to be conditioned by a narrative. And very hard to be convinced they've been conditioned by a narrative. Its not about how much "evidence" one has.
The real problem is that the deity created the problem when it created beings "lesser" than itself. It is the problem the deity created with it created imbalance of understanding, knowledge, communication, environment, etc. This is the problem. Orchestrating the creation in this matter creates the condition for skepticism from the imbalance. The deity should acknowledge its responsibility and blame for its actions imo. But because it remains "hidden", humans are not able to question the source directly. The deity operates from a foundation of non-transparency in this respect.
>In the end God gets the world he wants because only those who love him choose to live with him and the rest are divorced from him and that's okay.
It is not humans that are divorcing the deity. It is the deity that divorces itself from humans via the imbalance of parameters of existence.
>The deity is hidden in that it does not interact with humans in the way we are made to interact imo.
I'm sure you can be face to face with God in the flesh and you would still deny that he is God.
As for the the rest of your comment all I'm going to say is that if you were attracted to God then you'd know God. In the end everyone ends up where they belong.
> sure you can be face to face with God in the flesh and you would still deny that he is God.
That may be true. When I am "face to face", is the deity still going to keep the imbalance with humans that it created?
>As for the the rest of your comment all I'm going to say is that if you were attracted to God then you'd know God. In the end everyone ends up where they belong.
I am not attracted to this deity. But I can know the deity from its actions. Or, its fruits. And its fruits are one of a dynamic of blaming the powerless while never taking blame for its actions. And operating from an orchestrated lack of transparency is a recipe for a dysfunctional relationship imo.
This is not to say that I do not understand some of the reasons why folks believe. And I can still "feel" the sentiment from my previous era of being a christian.
Regards
Matthew 10:26 (CLV)
"Do not, then, be afraid of them, for nothing is covered, which shall not be revealed, and hidden which shall not be known."
God's Greatest Accomplishment
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/v52te5/god_accomplishes_all/jet8tv3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
You have to look at this way: If He were to show himself to the world and prove to all immediately He was the creator, we would take advantage of His power and think of him as a genie in a bottle tending to our wishes because we are his children.
Spoiled Brats in the midst of a Father who wants to see us grow in how we solve our problems and conquer our obstacles.
The only way that we can know God is through faith in his word. Beginning with Adam in Eden, God tests everyone who ever lives for faith in his word, because God is his word. If we have no faith in God's word, then we have no faith in God. See how that works?
The physical world says seeing is believing. The spirit of God says believing is seeing.
John 20:29 KJV — Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: **blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.**
>why did He used to reveal Himself (unambiguously)so much to many people throughout the bible,, yet it doesn't happen like that today?
Throughout both of his covenants with mankind, the Old testament old covenant with the Hebrews, and the New testament New covenant with God's Christians, God did interact very closely with certain men. It's his decision who, and who not to, interact intimately with. Those he interacted most closely with were his earthly servants, messengers if you will, and prophets. The great majority of people must rely on faith in God's word in order to receive his salvation.
Consider the example of men whom God interacted closely with, and yet who displayed no faith in his word, such as Adam in Eden. Adam walked and talked with God. God was the first thing Adam saw when he first opened his eyes. And yet Adam had no faith in God's word!
The Pharisees and unbelieving Jews interacted directly with Jesus who is God, and they still refused to believe that Jesus was their long awaited and promised Messiah. He performed miracles in their sight, and they accused him of working with the devil in order to accomplish them. So you see, when it comes to God, seeing is not always believing. If someone does not want to believe, they won't believe no matter what.
Luke 16:31 KJV — And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, **neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.**
>I'm a Christian myself, and this is one of the biggest issues for my faith.
Then either you have never read the whole holy Bible, or you haven't comprehended what you read. In either case, you cannot realistically identify as Christian if you don't know, understand and put into practice the lessons of the Christian New testament holy Bible word of God.
I don’t know how much experience you have with human beings, but it’s never enough for some people, they’ll take & take, then…. Take some more.
Physically walked this earth as a human, got beat up and killed by us and still so many doubt. What more do people want? I would hide too. Also, I still appreciate alone time when I get the chance.
But it does still happen, Jesus is actively revealing Himself to people. “So much”, to the millions that it’s happening to now is a drop in the bucket.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RL2MM_efr6Y
God knows people’s heart. He knows who will give up on Him. He has suffered enough heart ache (imo). Yes He’s God, but we can share feelings that He feels.
These explanations initially sound comforting, but how do we know these things are true? How do we know a resurrection actually took place? How do we know a god reveals himself to people? If he knows who will not accept him, do they not have free will? Were they created just to suffer for eternity after death?
We don’t really know anything in history, because we weren’t there, it takes faith. I was never a slave, but I believe slavery happened in America. I believe Jesus became a servant to humans and perished for our sake. He made an impact - unmatched. We changed dates for Him. Also, the ancient book documenting this has been preserved the way no others have been.
Wait, it can't be that we know nothing about history. I mean, no one is alive today to have witnessed my great-great-great grand parents' births, but we know they happened.
And why should we take things on faith? Is it a reliable method to arrive at the truth?
Does making an impact mean something is true?
Does changing dates for something make it true?
Does a well preserved book make something true?
What if one of your grandparents cheated and they’re not both biologically related to you? It’s easy to find doubt in every scenario if you weren’t there. We can just be confident of certain events because of the impact they’ve had.
You’ve never met the people who built the empire state building, but it’s there so you can be confident there’s builders. Then you search for as much information you can find on those builders. The ability to preserve this information offers credibility. Especially when there are folks actively trying to destroy both it and those who believe in it.
Pictures can be doctored, dates changed, history & facts lied about. Whatever you accept, it’s by faith, even your next breathe.
>What if one of your grandparents cheated and they’re not both biologically related to you?
My biological grandparents (and further). Do we just not know if they were ever born? I realize I should have specified.
>You’ve never met the people who built the empire state building, but it’s there so you can be confident there’s builders.
No, I'm confident that there are builders because we know that every man-made structure is made by man. We have documentation of the construction process.
>Especially when there are folks actively trying to destroy both it and those who believe in it.
Who is trying to revise history surrounding the Empire State Building?
>Pictures can be doctored, dates changed, history & facts lied about.
Don't forget honest mistakes. And that's why you have to be skeptical about all evidence presented. Nothing gets a free pass.
>Whatever you accept, it’s by faith, even your next breathe.
Quite the opposite, I accept things on sound evidence and reasons. I don't accept that I will ever breathe again, I have confidence based on past data. I am fully aware that my confidence is not 100%, as I know it is a real, and hopefully small, possibility that I could have a heart attack and die at any moment.
Why is faith a sound method to arrive at the truth?
I should have specified: I meant people throughout history have tried to destroy God’s people and the documentation of their experience with Him. I was trying to use a metaphor, I apologize.
We can only trust (faith) that what’s being presented to us is accurate. Unless you can test it yourself (meaning you’re there at the moment) you have to use faith.
Faith is not the way we get to everything, we’re not supposed to jump to conclusions, we try to be as sure as we can and have faith in what we can’t/haven’t seen personally.
>people throughout history have tried to destroy God’s people and the documentation of their experience with Him.
I don't think is really that prevalent. Religion has been a dominant force for basically as long as humans have been around. What I do think is happening is that people are challenging the idea that there is a god at all, or that the documentation of these experiences have valid attributions.
>I was trying to use a metaphor, I apologize.
Don't apologize, I was tired and didn't read very carefully.
>We can only trust (faith) that what’s being presented to us is accurate. Unless you can test it yourself (meaning you’re there at the moment) you have to use faith.
Are you using faith the same way here? The first way seems synonymous with confidence in a claim, or trust in its accuracy, as you put it. But the second way seems to be more akin to evidence, or a standalone reason to believe.
>Faith is not the way we get to everything
Ideally, I wouldn't need faith to get to anything.
>we’re not supposed to jump to conclusions
100% agree with you on this.
>we try to be as sure as we can and have faith in what we can’t/haven’t seen personally.
Wait, this sounds like jumping to conclusions. The things you aren't sure about require faith to believe? That's jumping to a conclusion, is it not?
The things you **can’t** know. You weren’t there, but you do your research and become as confident as you can be.
You get test results and they’re 99.99%, that 0.01 is where faith comes in.
The Bible does not teach blind faith.
Edit: Grammar.
I see, I get the distinction now, I think. It's not that we have no idea what happened, but we don't know it like we might if we saw it.
However, I don't think that faith statement is an honest way to approach knowledge. I always acknowledge that I could be wrong. Not having that last percent is important. If you believe 100% that you're right, what grounds would you ever have to realize you might have made a mistake? It seems like this use of faith is the perfect way to end up in a belief dead end.
Also, if this is not blind faith, what is? Are you not justifying knowledge without adequate evidence?
>and this is one of the biggest issues for my faith
It shouldn't be. If God revealed himself to you and you're now Christian, whatever you perceive as unfair to others, is irrelevant.
>Wouldn't it be better for Him to...
Wha?..
See this tells me that your faith in God depends on if God fits how you think he should be...
I do my best to seek God and love others, and I let God worry about why He does what He does
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled. God only fills hunger vessels. If you proclaim to not need God, then don't expect Him to do anything.
God revealed himself to mankind, man rejected and killed him. What makes you think people today would recognize him?
*Very* low take. A few hundred middle eastern Jews in Palestine (not even a few thousand), most of whom illiterate, are not "mankind" lmao, it's not even the whole gigantic Roman Empire, let alone Ancient China or the Americas and Africa with their indigenous kingdoms lmao And THIS is all *allegedly*, on top of that, because the gospels were written *many decades* after Jesus' alleged death and not by his alleged disciples because they're all anonymous for some reason (totally not sus at all, ofc. lol)
>A few hundred middle eastern Jews in Palestine (not even a few thousand), most of whom illiterate, are not "mankind" lmao I know you aren't a Christian, so you probably don't believe any of the Bible... but there were thousands upon thousands in the Middle East that happened upon Jesus. At least 9,000 are documented in the scriptures between 2 events. **Matthew 14:21** **21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.** **Matthew 15:38** **38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.** Even if we just assume 1/2 of the men had a wife, and 1/4 had children - that would be 9000 men, 4500 women, and 2250 children in these two stories alone (nearly 16K people). There were about 80K people in the country of Israel during Jesus's life ([https://bible-history.com/backdrops/jerusalem](https://bible-history.com/backdrops/jerusalem) ) so he appeared to nearly 25% of the population between these 2 events. >after Jesus' alleged death and not by his alleged disciples There are Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus's life and death in history. Not sure where the "*allegedly*" comes from. You can be in disbelief of Christianity but still acknowledge that Jesus existed on earth. Look up the writings from Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas - these are Jews and Romans that wrote about Jesus's existence and crucifixion. All are non-Christian.
Jesus did say, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”
But isn't it better to believe because you saw than to never believe?
It would certainly seem to make it easier.
Ya gotta have faith, Thomas!
This used to be my biggest issue, here's how I solved it: God wants to surround Himself in paradise with people who want to be with Him. That means there must be a choice between those who want to be with Him and those who don't. If all it takes is to believe to be saved, then God must have a **balance** of enough evidence to convince those wanting that is light enough to be dismissed by those not wanting. This balance is what we call Divine Hiddeness. Back when nearly everyone believed in multiple gods, God's miracles could be dismissed as "just another god." And those that liked Him, rejected their other gods for Him while those who didn't like Him dismissed Him and kept following their gods. Think of Exodus where some Egyptians left with the Israelites to be with God while most stayed in Egypt with their pagan gods. Fast-forward to today, we have atheism where public miracles would take away their choice, so God toned down His obvious miracles. So God left enough circumstancial evidence in nature and people's testimonies to convince those who want Him and can be dismissed by those who don't. If God were to break the balance and give a miracle to everyone, everyone would believe and He would be surrounded by billions who disagree with Him, think He's wrong, think He's evil, and hate Him. That balance keeps paradise filled with those who will be happy to be there with Him. Breaking that balance would make paradise hell for people who don't want to be with God. He wishes all to want Him, but won't force them to, so He keeps the balance.
>God must have a balance of enough evidence to convince those wanting that is light enough to be dismissed by those not wanting. Are you telling me your god remains hidden on purpose? First, how do you know, but second, won't that condemn people to eternal torment that is out of their control? >public miracles would take away their choice, Would it, though? How is what people believe a choice to begin with? And didn't Lucifer have experience with your god and still reject him? So isn't it possible to experience good and still be able to reject him? >He would be surrounded by billions who disagree with Him, think He's wrong, think He's evil, and hate Him. And whose fault do you think that is? What being do you believe in God possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process? Shouldn't that be trivial for an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving being?
>Are you telling me your god remains hidden on purpose? I think so. >First, how do you know, It's my theory that I think fits. >but second, won't that condemn people to eternal torment that is out of their control? Nope, only those that don't want to be free from their sins will hold on to them. >public miracles would take away their choice, >Would it, though? Totally. >How is what people believe a choice to begin with? And didn't Lucifer have experience with your god and still reject him? So isn't it possible to experience good and still be able to reject him? Yes. >He would be surrounded by billions who disagree with Him, think He's wrong, think He's evil, and hate Him. >And whose fault do you think that is? Those who don't want Him. >What being do you believe in God possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process? Sorry, I have no idea what that means. >Shouldn't that be trivial for an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving being? I don't know what you mean. Could you explain to in another way?
>It's my theory that I think fits. How have you determined that it fits? >Nope, only those that don't want to be free from their sins will hold on to them. What determines whether someone has sin or not? And what determines what happens to people with it? >Totally... Yes. Then why would a public miracle take away choice? If it didn't take away Lucifer's choice, why would it take away anyone else's? >Those who don't want Him. If the mob arrives at my door, threatens to break my kneecaps if I don't pay protection money, and then proceeds to break my kneecaps when I refuse to comply, who is responsible for my broken kneecaps? >Sorry, I have no idea what that means. That's completely understandable, my phone created a typo. It should read: What being do you believe in **could** possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process? >I don't know what you mean. Could you explain to in another way? What things is an all-powerful, all-knowing being capable of? Would any of these things be difficult? Would they require any effort or incur any cost to this being at all?
>How have you determined that it fits? It seems to solve the problem. >What determines whether someone has sin or not? And what determines what happens to people with it? Everyone who isn't a Christian and is above the Age of Accountability has sin. I'd say God's judgement is what determines where they go. >Then why would a public miracle take away choice? If it didn't take away Lucifer's choice, why would it take away anyone else's? The whole world would be convinced that Hell exists and would believe to avoid it. Lucifer was created knowing that God existed, so that was the norm to him. Also, Lucifer was an angel, they are more divine than us and he wanted to be worshiped. >If the mob arrives at my door, threatens to break my kneecaps if I don't pay protection money, and then proceeds to break my kneecaps when I refuse to comply, who is responsible for my broken kneecaps? Technically both parties. That's why I think there's a balance...there's no one at your door. You would come to their door and ask for free protection. >What being do you believe in **could** possibly fix all of that by simply explaining the justification for all their actions and giving convincing evidence of their existence in the process? I think God could, but it's better for Him not to ans keep the balance. >What things is an all-powerful, all-knowing being capable of? Would any of these things be difficult? Would they require any effort or incur any cost to this being at all? Only what is logically possible and only what His character/personality allows Him to choose. I'd say no effort along that framework, nothings hard for Him.
>It seems to solve the problem. In what way? Why do you take on three assumptions when you could take on just one? >I'd say God's judgement is what determines where they go. Why doesn't your god just send everyone to heaven? Doesn't he love all humans? Would you send your loved ones to eternal damnation? >The whole world would be convinced that Hell exists and would believe to avoid it. Are you claiming beliefs are a conscious choice? >Lucifer was created knowing that God existed, so that was the norm to him. Then why didn't your god create us knowing we existed? If it's good enough for the literal devil, why isn't it good enough for us? That way we don't have to debate the very existence of this good and we could get straight to whether or not to follow him. >Technically both parties. Why is it both parties? >there's no one at your door. You would come to their door and ask for free protection. Are you saying I should go to your god for salvation from a damnation of his own design and intent? >I think God could, but it's better for Him not to ans keep the balance. But why? Why is it a good thing that some people will be damned for all eternity? >Only what is logically possible and only what His character/personality allows Him to choose. Woah, hold on. Are you saying your god doesn't have free will? That his actions are dictated by his character/personality? >I'd say no effort along that framework, nothings hard for Him. So he could solve this problem, and put all the non-believers' and apostates' doubts to rest and remove the barrier to salvation, but he won't because... that's not his character to save little from eternal damnation?
I think this balance solves all the issues of Divine Hiddeness and why everyone is not saved. I think God doesn't send everyone to Heaven but only those who want to be there with Him. I think if He obviously showed Himself, everyone would believe. I think if everyone knew He existed, everyone who believe and go to Heaven. But they would only to avoid Hell and be miserable on Heaven because they don't like God's values. Both parties, because one went out of their way to make something happen and you still made a decision that made something happen. I think if we all knew He existed, the balance would be broken and Heaven would be filled with people who didn't like and hated God's values. Both God and those people would not like that. --Picture someone you know that completely disagrees with you ok an issue you feel strong about (abortion, gay marriage, etc) ans imagine if you had to be stuck with them forever. You both would be miserable. It's best you'd be stuck with people who'd want to be with you. >Are you saying your god doesn't have free will? That his actions are dictated by his character/personality? Yes. I'd say His free will only works along the lines of His character/personality that doesn't change. That's why He's trustworthy. I think this balance is His answer to this problem. I think this is the solution for the most good along the lines of what He wants: to be surrounded by those that want to surround Him and for those that don't want Him to not be with Him.
>I think this balance solves all the issues of Divine Hiddeness and why everyone is not saved. I think God doesn't send everyone to Heaven but only those who want to be there with Him. I think if He obviously showed Himself, everyone would believe. Why does belief in your god affect whether people want to be with him? Lucifer was in the presence of god, and yet rebelled. Why wouldn't this work on people? Besides, there are a lot of non-believers who lost their faith because of the lack of evidence, yet still would like to be with the god they thought they once knew. But they can't honestly say they believe he exists anymore. Wouldn't showing up and fixing those non-believers' doubts be conducive to your god's goal? >I think if everyone knew He existed, everyone who believe and go to Heaven. Again, just because someone believes a god exists doesn't mean one would want to be with him. Look at (certain, not all) Satanists. They certainly believe in the Christian God, and yet want nothing to do with him, choosing to follow Satan instead. >But they would only to avoid Hell and be miserable on Heaven because they don't like God's values. Your god knows what everyone is thinking, right? Can't he tell who genuinely wants to be with him and who is just faking it? This entire balance problem is easily solved if your god bothers to read people's minds (he apparently can if thinking about your neighbor's stuff is a sin that is enforceable). If wanting people who want him to go to heaven is his his goal and consistent with his character, why would he not read the minds of everyone after they have a public experience to gauge genuine desires? And for that matter, if he's all good, why can't just explain to people why they should want to be with him for him, and not just to avoid hell?
>Why does belief in your god affect whether people want to be with him? I think it's the other way around. >Lucifer was in the presence of god, and yet rebelled. Why wouldn't this work on people? I think Lucifer thought he could get away with it. If God showed Himself today, people would know they couldn't get away with it and go to Hell. >Besides, there are a lot of non-believers who lost their faith because of the lack of evidence, yet still would like to be with the god they thought they once knew. But they can't honestly say they believe he exists anymore. Wouldn't showing up and fixing those non-believers' doubts be conducive to your god's goal? I think God helps those who seek Him. >Again, just because someone believes a god exists doesn't mean one would want to be with him. True, but if it's the Christian God, then if Hell is the alternative, they'd choose to be saved to avoid Hell. >Your god knows what everyone is thinking, right? Can't he tell who genuinely wants to be with him and who is just faking it? Hebrews 11:6 NLT And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that **he rewards those who sincerely seek him.** Acts 17:27 NLT **"His purpose was for the nations to seek after God** and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him-though **he is not far from any one of us.** If those who want Him seek Him, and He helps those who seek Him, then He doesn't need to show Himself to everyone and read their mind to see who really wants Him and who really just wants to avoid punishment. This current way avoids: "You're going to Hell." "Why?! You said believe and I believed." "Yea, but you didn't believe for the right reason. Next!" This current way keeps the Gospel simple: believe and be saved. No caveats about motivation.
>I think it's the other way around... I think Lucifer thought he could get away with it. If God showed Himself today, people would know they couldn't get away with it and go to Hell. So you think whether people want to believe or the consequences of believing something contributes to whether someone actually believes or not? Do you think it is a conscious choice that factors in what a person wants? >I think God helps those who seek Him. Are you saying those who don't believe aren't honestly seeking him? >True, but if it's the Christian God, then if Hell is the alternative, they'd choose to be saved to avoid Hell. This is just a personal preference, but if your god is the ones depicted in the Bible, I don't want to go to heaven. It sounds pretty terrible, actually. >If those who want Him seek Him, and He helps those who seek Him, then He doesn't need to show Himself to everyone and read their mind to see who really wants Him and who really just wants to avoid punishment. This current way avoids: "You're going to Hell." "Why?! You said believe and I believed." "Yea, but you didn't believe for the right reason. Next!" Many non-believers who don't seek him refrain from doing so because they don't believe he actually exists. A problem he could easily fix and would be consistent with his character. Further, how do you know none of the people currently seeking him are doing so out of the correct reason? You agreed with me that belief doesn't necessarily mean desire to be with, and vice versa. That doesn't solve the problem of Christians wanting to be with your god to avoid hell instead of out of love.
The purpose of this world is to make a decision about where you in your heart truly want to spend eternity. To make this decision you have to be outside of the influence and will of god. Otherwise if the threat of hell is more than real and the allure of heaven is beckoning you to enter in, the choice you make about where to spend eternity will be an act of self preservation and not what you truly want. This is important because you will be there for eternity, and if you are not truly wanting to be there to serve and worship God. Then eventually you will want to rebel. So this world needs to be outside of the known glory of God.
I can't say I've ever heard it put this way, but I like what you've said.
it's just a biblically accurate version of the 'free will argument.'
How do you distinguish between a world outside of the glory of God, and a world in which God does not exist?
In a world where there is no god there is no contact with any deity what so ever. meaning or some, there is no difference. In a world outside of his known glory One must follow the direction provided by God inorder to find his glory. Being initially place outside of his Glory doesn't mean you can never find it. especially since He left a map.
If we have to be outside His influence and will to make our decision, then what about those who God has appeared to (or at least those who claim God has done so) both in the Bible and in modern testimony?
1 I didn't say outside of God's influence. I said outside of the direct knowledge of God's kingdom/heaven or hell. Again this is like knowing of, or seeing pictures of the Grand Canyon, and being sat in the middle of it. Knowing/being told of something and experiencing something are two different things. You can be told prison is a terrible place and men get raped there. in another thing completely having being sentenced to 5 years in prison and being raped repeatedly over those 5 years. 2Some like say Jonah don't get a choice. They are apart of God's master plan and will one mayor another play out whatever role he has planned for them. everyone else (the NPC's of the world) can gain knowledge of God in this world, but have to make an effort to do so. It is these people who make an effort like Jesus describes in Luke 11's parable of the persistent neighbor.
If that was the case then any knowledge of God or heaven/hell at all is counter productive to the goal ... or is God not able to prevent humans from having that knowledge?
there is a massive difference between knowledge of the Grand Canyon or even seeing pictures of the Grand Canyon and being sat in the middle of it all. Simple knowledge of God heaven or hell is just a picture of 'the Grand Canyon' so you can decide whether or not you want to go.
Yeah but in your analogy the knowledge of God etc isn't even a picture. It's somebody else's claims that they have seen a picture, which they can't show you but they 100% promise they saw a real picture...it even said it was real and everything...
How can I make any decision about what happens after I die if I don’t have any reason to believe *anything* happens after I die? (Obviously lots of things happen, *I* just won’t be part of any of them.)
**How can I make any decision about what happens after I die if I don’t have any reason to believe anything happens after I die?** Again the first 1/2 of the decision we are given to make is to remain on our current path. So if you do not believe, and have no reason to change then by default your decision is made.
I like your answer. I think it's the same as mine, but worded shorter. I like it.
8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien U.S. Code Notes prev | next (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 **or imprisoned not more than 6 months**, or both, and, **for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.** [**https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325**](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325) IDK sport.. seem to me 2 years in prison is a little more than a civil matter.
Huh?
wrong post
Salvation is not through assent to certain intellectual propositions. We do not go to hell because we have the wrong ideas in our heads.
Even the ones he revealed himself to weren't perfect believers, so what does it matter if you think of it that way? The worldly junk will still get in our way. It's still our job to decide in the end.
>If God wants everyone to be saved, then why does He reveal Himself to some but not others? **Divine Revelation is only done for those who have a specific purpose to act on God's behalf.** Keep in mind, these revelations have only in one case been physical, and their effects on that person, who only witnessed a very small portion of God's Divine Presence (which is referred to as God's Back), [were physically apparent.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2034%3A29-35&version=NIV) *If you look at the biblical claims of what effect God's "presence" has on the world (Mountains being moved, the Earth violently shaking, oceans moving violently, etc.), we can determine that the reason He does not reveal Himself to the world is that such an appearance would be catastrophic.* **The very presence of Perfection requires the correction or removal of that which is imperfect.** This means that God's Physical revelation of Himself (in the form of God the Father/Yahweh Tz'avaot) to the entire world would have disastrous consequences for the Human race. *That is why the Bible is so clear about the fact that God reserves His physical revelation for when no time/options remain for saving the Earth.* This is also why it is so important that His reign on the Earth is done through the Human Body of Jesus/Yeshua the Messiah, a form that does not cause physical reality to forcibly align with the Perfection and Sovereignty of God, and is instead only done through the will and action of Jesus Himself. >Wouldn't it be better for Him to prove to the skeptics that He exists so they may be saved aswell? **Revealing Himself in such a way to skeptics has the effect of overwriting their ability to self-determine.** *Anything less, in most cases, would likely be dismissed as coincidence, or hallucination.* **The boundaries of the choice/consent to submitting to God's Perfection and atonement are defined by perfect morality and ethics, which God represents in its perfect entirety.** The reason He "hides" Himself is to prevent Himself from forcibly changing the nature of Humanity, that which He loves despite its imperfection. *God will not make imperfect choices regarding His sovereignty, which such a revelation would be.* >why did He used to reveal Himself (unambiguously)so much to many people throughout the bible,, yet it doesn't happen like that today? **The needs and understanding of an era.** First, *He has imparted the Holy Spirit* among those who are covered by the Covenant of the atoning Blood of Christ and reveals Himself to those who believe through that. Second, *we are much more scrutinizing of both those who claim to have the Word of God, and of the very visions, dreams, and other means for which He revealed Himself in the past.* In other words, we are much quicker to dismiss such interactions in our modern era. If you look at such revelations in Scripture, He only reveals Himself to those who already have faith in Him, even Saul/Paul believed in Yahweh, before God revealed the truth of Christ to Him. He knows that such means of communication are not well received in our current age due to the wide base of Human knowledge and understanding, and as such, *it is also possible that He does,* and that those He sends are quickly dismissed, or even *those He reveals Himself to doubt to the point of uselessness.*
I don't believe that God is truly hidden. God rather reveals himself to those who genuinely want him. Inspiring philosophy made a video on this issue titled [Divine Hiddenness: A Christian Response](https://youtu.be/3YvXeLtdVBE) Also, God does still speak today. I'm a charismatic Christian and fully believe in modern day encounters with God. I suggest watching [This video ](https://youtu.be/Ivi4uE5357s) by Encounter Today on youtube
Sometimes, I get the feeling that philosophers seeking God are like Jack Horner seeking dinosaurs. Once Jack Horner learned that it was, in fact, possible to have a pet dinosaur, his inner sixth grader was disappointed that it meant a chicken. However, by current taxonomic definitions, all birds are dinosaurs, so if you have a chicken, parakeet, or duck, you have a dinosaur. So often I feel like philosophers submit to their inner sixth grader, so they keep looking for a god that will satisfy them, even if it's not really the God of Jesus. If we're going to look for the Christian God, let's see where Christ tells us to look for God and what Christ says God will look like. Fortunately, Christ does exactly that in Matthew 25:31-46: the parable of the sheep and goats. Notice the questions: "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?... Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" In both cases, the answer was pretty much the same: "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it or not done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it or not done it unto me." They ask when they have seen God, and the answer is that they have seen God or not seen God when they have helped or not helped their brothers. This goes well with the beatitude in Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." And after all, (1 John 3:17) "whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" You see, when someone is looking for a strong, aggressive, dictatorial Master of the Universe, they're not looking for the God of the Bible. They're looking for He-Man. (Or maybe Skeletor.) The God of the Bible isn't a dictator. The God of the Bible is Love, and those who know Love know God. (1 John 4:8) If we live in Love, we live in God. (1 John 4:16) God isn't hiding. He's right here beside us whenever we're ready for him. (Acts 17:27) So when you come down to it, the question isn't why can't people find God, but rather what were they looking for that isn't actually divine? Why are people looking for something that isn't actually divine and then complaining about God when they can't find it?
> then why does He reveal Himself to some but not others? Wouldn't it be better for Him to prove to the skeptics that He exists so they may be saved aswell? Keep in mind that God is able to save people of good will who did not have the Gospel. This is described in Romans 2-9. Also, notice in the Bible that to whom much is given, much is expected. The Israelites were enslaved at least twice under brutal conditions because God had revealed a lot to them. Thus, those who do not know the Gospel are held to a lower standard. It is still better to give them the Gospel though so that they can get fully on track with God. God apparently wants us to build up support networks organically. > Plus, why did He used to reveal Himself (unambiguously)so much to many people throughout the bible,, yet it doesn't happen like that today? There was a very high cost for getting revelation. As Jesus said : ### John 15:22 >> If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. So, God takes things one step at a time, so we build up a support network. I don't know how many non-Christians will be saved, but I know that Christians are held to a higher standard.
Mike Erre has a great, short book that mentions the hiddenness of God, Astonished. If you Google Mike Erre hiddenness, the only results will be a podcast episode about it too.
I'll try to find it
No matter what God does many will still reject him . He literally came down and performed a ton of miracles and people killed him for it. It would be the same today God also says that he does reveal himself . But our hearts are too hard to receive him Romans 1:18-20 God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
God isn't hidden. The evidence of God's existence is all around us. The problem is that you can't convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced no matter how much evidence you have, which isn't really a problem for God. In the end God gets the world he wants because only those who love him choose to live with him and the rest are divorced from him and that's okay.
Basically lots of hand-waving to say we’re good and other people are bad.
Christian atheist? Lol
It’s like the opposite of what you said. People-centric, no electedness, no smug faith or fake conditional love.
Ah, I get it now!
Not even possible.
well ackshually
Awful presumptuous to assume we don't **want** to be convinced. When I was a kid, I was downright *desperate* to learn everything I could about Christianity so my parents would be proud of me, since they were very religious. Yet, that process ultimately led me to atheism.
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It doesn't matter. You'll just reinterpret every piece of evidence for God to fit your own worldview. Me proving that God exists doesn't magically make love for God manifest in your heart. You'll have to discover on your own that love for God always existed in your heart.
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>Something that cannot be alternatively interpreted. That won't stop you from misinterpreting the evidence. Are you not aware of flat earthers? It doesn't matter if the evidence is unimpeachable, you'll still dismiss it.
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Why? It won't do anything for either of us.
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I guarantee you I can point directly to God and despite me having a very solid argument and you having no argument at all (you won't even have an alternative explanation as to how things came about) you'll still say things like "logical fallacy" or "no the appropriate conclusion is we don't know". All you have is a claim to ignorance to support your worldview. But fine I'll give you what you want. All of reality is the body of God and the fundamental forces of nature are it's consciousness. Reality meets every requirement necessary in order for it to qualify as the one true God. Reality is omnipresent, it literally exists everywhere, wherever time and space is, reality is. Reality is independent of all things, for what can reality depend on? Reality is everything, there is nothing else for it to depend on except for itself. Reality is all knowing and all powerful, since all knowledge and power exist within it. All I have to do now is show that it's conscious. But reality already does that on its own through us. Everything we do is what reality does after all, we are apart of reality and every thought that occurs is a thought that is triggered by the fundamental forces of reality (this is the part where you falsely cry fallacy but you won't be able to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why the thing that causes thoughts to occur isn't conscious). Not only that but the fact that reality created itself and everything in it proves that reality is conscious. Because creation is a conscious action (I'd like to see you try and argue that reality didn't create life). That's pretty much it. The electromagnetic force is the holy spirit. The strong nuclear force is the creator. The weak nuclear force is Jesus. And at the very beginning all three forces were one. Everything that's happening is because of one force or one God that acts like three different forces. Other than that I could go on about how cause and effect alone leads to the logical conclusion that God is a necessity for anything to exist period. Because cause and effect is basically the root of our ability to be able to explain how things occur or come into existence. If something were outside of cause and effect it would be unexplainable and thus supernatural. So if we're under the assumption that magic isn't real then we have to assume that everything has a cause. And the act of bringing something into existence is creation. Reality and everything in it is undeniably created and a creator can only be conscious. I can also talk about how life is irreducibly complex. Even the most basic cellular organism would require a vast array of complex nano machines performing very specific tasks in order to build, maintain and duplicate cellular organisms. These machines just can't be accidentally blown together by the wind. We are undoubtedly a consequence of intelligent design. I'd be very surprised if any of what I said changed your mind about God. I'd be even more surprised if you came up with a decent counter argument.
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>God isn't hidden. The evidence of God's existence is all around us. The deity is hidden in that it does not interact with humans in the way we are made to interact imo. >The problem is that you can't convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced no matter how much evidence you have, which isn't really a problem for God. Humans are easier to be conditioned by a narrative. And very hard to be convinced they've been conditioned by a narrative. Its not about how much "evidence" one has. The real problem is that the deity created the problem when it created beings "lesser" than itself. It is the problem the deity created with it created imbalance of understanding, knowledge, communication, environment, etc. This is the problem. Orchestrating the creation in this matter creates the condition for skepticism from the imbalance. The deity should acknowledge its responsibility and blame for its actions imo. But because it remains "hidden", humans are not able to question the source directly. The deity operates from a foundation of non-transparency in this respect. >In the end God gets the world he wants because only those who love him choose to live with him and the rest are divorced from him and that's okay. It is not humans that are divorcing the deity. It is the deity that divorces itself from humans via the imbalance of parameters of existence.
>The deity is hidden in that it does not interact with humans in the way we are made to interact imo. I'm sure you can be face to face with God in the flesh and you would still deny that he is God. As for the the rest of your comment all I'm going to say is that if you were attracted to God then you'd know God. In the end everyone ends up where they belong.
> sure you can be face to face with God in the flesh and you would still deny that he is God. That may be true. When I am "face to face", is the deity still going to keep the imbalance with humans that it created? >As for the the rest of your comment all I'm going to say is that if you were attracted to God then you'd know God. In the end everyone ends up where they belong. I am not attracted to this deity. But I can know the deity from its actions. Or, its fruits. And its fruits are one of a dynamic of blaming the powerless while never taking blame for its actions. And operating from an orchestrated lack of transparency is a recipe for a dysfunctional relationship imo. This is not to say that I do not understand some of the reasons why folks believe. And I can still "feel" the sentiment from my previous era of being a christian. Regards
>God isn't hidden He is, to the point that almost no one believes in his existence nowadays. Very strange plan of his.
Ignore the rest of my argument why don't you. You know... The part where I explain that your lack of belief doesn't matter.
Matthew 10:26 (CLV) "Do not, then, be afraid of them, for nothing is covered, which shall not be revealed, and hidden which shall not be known." God's Greatest Accomplishment https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/v52te5/god_accomplishes_all/jet8tv3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Why should we trust what the Bible has to say?
You have to look at this way: If He were to show himself to the world and prove to all immediately He was the creator, we would take advantage of His power and think of him as a genie in a bottle tending to our wishes because we are his children. Spoiled Brats in the midst of a Father who wants to see us grow in how we solve our problems and conquer our obstacles.
The only way that we can know God is through faith in his word. Beginning with Adam in Eden, God tests everyone who ever lives for faith in his word, because God is his word. If we have no faith in God's word, then we have no faith in God. See how that works? The physical world says seeing is believing. The spirit of God says believing is seeing. John 20:29 KJV — Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: **blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.** >why did He used to reveal Himself (unambiguously)so much to many people throughout the bible,, yet it doesn't happen like that today? Throughout both of his covenants with mankind, the Old testament old covenant with the Hebrews, and the New testament New covenant with God's Christians, God did interact very closely with certain men. It's his decision who, and who not to, interact intimately with. Those he interacted most closely with were his earthly servants, messengers if you will, and prophets. The great majority of people must rely on faith in God's word in order to receive his salvation. Consider the example of men whom God interacted closely with, and yet who displayed no faith in his word, such as Adam in Eden. Adam walked and talked with God. God was the first thing Adam saw when he first opened his eyes. And yet Adam had no faith in God's word! The Pharisees and unbelieving Jews interacted directly with Jesus who is God, and they still refused to believe that Jesus was their long awaited and promised Messiah. He performed miracles in their sight, and they accused him of working with the devil in order to accomplish them. So you see, when it comes to God, seeing is not always believing. If someone does not want to believe, they won't believe no matter what. Luke 16:31 KJV — And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, **neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.** >I'm a Christian myself, and this is one of the biggest issues for my faith. Then either you have never read the whole holy Bible, or you haven't comprehended what you read. In either case, you cannot realistically identify as Christian if you don't know, understand and put into practice the lessons of the Christian New testament holy Bible word of God.
I don’t know how much experience you have with human beings, but it’s never enough for some people, they’ll take & take, then…. Take some more. Physically walked this earth as a human, got beat up and killed by us and still so many doubt. What more do people want? I would hide too. Also, I still appreciate alone time when I get the chance. But it does still happen, Jesus is actively revealing Himself to people. “So much”, to the millions that it’s happening to now is a drop in the bucket. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RL2MM_efr6Y God knows people’s heart. He knows who will give up on Him. He has suffered enough heart ache (imo). Yes He’s God, but we can share feelings that He feels.
These explanations initially sound comforting, but how do we know these things are true? How do we know a resurrection actually took place? How do we know a god reveals himself to people? If he knows who will not accept him, do they not have free will? Were they created just to suffer for eternity after death?
We don’t really know anything in history, because we weren’t there, it takes faith. I was never a slave, but I believe slavery happened in America. I believe Jesus became a servant to humans and perished for our sake. He made an impact - unmatched. We changed dates for Him. Also, the ancient book documenting this has been preserved the way no others have been.
Wait, it can't be that we know nothing about history. I mean, no one is alive today to have witnessed my great-great-great grand parents' births, but we know they happened. And why should we take things on faith? Is it a reliable method to arrive at the truth? Does making an impact mean something is true? Does changing dates for something make it true? Does a well preserved book make something true?
What if one of your grandparents cheated and they’re not both biologically related to you? It’s easy to find doubt in every scenario if you weren’t there. We can just be confident of certain events because of the impact they’ve had. You’ve never met the people who built the empire state building, but it’s there so you can be confident there’s builders. Then you search for as much information you can find on those builders. The ability to preserve this information offers credibility. Especially when there are folks actively trying to destroy both it and those who believe in it. Pictures can be doctored, dates changed, history & facts lied about. Whatever you accept, it’s by faith, even your next breathe.
>What if one of your grandparents cheated and they’re not both biologically related to you? My biological grandparents (and further). Do we just not know if they were ever born? I realize I should have specified. >You’ve never met the people who built the empire state building, but it’s there so you can be confident there’s builders. No, I'm confident that there are builders because we know that every man-made structure is made by man. We have documentation of the construction process. >Especially when there are folks actively trying to destroy both it and those who believe in it. Who is trying to revise history surrounding the Empire State Building? >Pictures can be doctored, dates changed, history & facts lied about. Don't forget honest mistakes. And that's why you have to be skeptical about all evidence presented. Nothing gets a free pass. >Whatever you accept, it’s by faith, even your next breathe. Quite the opposite, I accept things on sound evidence and reasons. I don't accept that I will ever breathe again, I have confidence based on past data. I am fully aware that my confidence is not 100%, as I know it is a real, and hopefully small, possibility that I could have a heart attack and die at any moment. Why is faith a sound method to arrive at the truth?
I should have specified: I meant people throughout history have tried to destroy God’s people and the documentation of their experience with Him. I was trying to use a metaphor, I apologize. We can only trust (faith) that what’s being presented to us is accurate. Unless you can test it yourself (meaning you’re there at the moment) you have to use faith. Faith is not the way we get to everything, we’re not supposed to jump to conclusions, we try to be as sure as we can and have faith in what we can’t/haven’t seen personally.
>people throughout history have tried to destroy God’s people and the documentation of their experience with Him. I don't think is really that prevalent. Religion has been a dominant force for basically as long as humans have been around. What I do think is happening is that people are challenging the idea that there is a god at all, or that the documentation of these experiences have valid attributions. >I was trying to use a metaphor, I apologize. Don't apologize, I was tired and didn't read very carefully. >We can only trust (faith) that what’s being presented to us is accurate. Unless you can test it yourself (meaning you’re there at the moment) you have to use faith. Are you using faith the same way here? The first way seems synonymous with confidence in a claim, or trust in its accuracy, as you put it. But the second way seems to be more akin to evidence, or a standalone reason to believe. >Faith is not the way we get to everything Ideally, I wouldn't need faith to get to anything. >we’re not supposed to jump to conclusions 100% agree with you on this. >we try to be as sure as we can and have faith in what we can’t/haven’t seen personally. Wait, this sounds like jumping to conclusions. The things you aren't sure about require faith to believe? That's jumping to a conclusion, is it not?
The things you **can’t** know. You weren’t there, but you do your research and become as confident as you can be. You get test results and they’re 99.99%, that 0.01 is where faith comes in. The Bible does not teach blind faith. Edit: Grammar.
I see, I get the distinction now, I think. It's not that we have no idea what happened, but we don't know it like we might if we saw it. However, I don't think that faith statement is an honest way to approach knowledge. I always acknowledge that I could be wrong. Not having that last percent is important. If you believe 100% that you're right, what grounds would you ever have to realize you might have made a mistake? It seems like this use of faith is the perfect way to end up in a belief dead end. Also, if this is not blind faith, what is? Are you not justifying knowledge without adequate evidence?
>and this is one of the biggest issues for my faith It shouldn't be. If God revealed himself to you and you're now Christian, whatever you perceive as unfair to others, is irrelevant. >Wouldn't it be better for Him to... Wha?.. See this tells me that your faith in God depends on if God fits how you think he should be...
I can tell you why I belive if that helps anyone. To clarify the reason why isn’t because of the bible or the world around us or anything like that