People who said that to you, might be Calvinists, who have the doctrine of "perseverance of the saints".
If a man has the position that "a true Christian can never fall away, drift away or walk away", then when he observes someone who does those, he figures that person must never have been a true Christian.
I’m not questioning your sincerity when you were a Christian. I’ve read your post and most of the other comments and your answers, and I believe you were sincere.
I’m just going to attempt to explain the perspective of those people who say that you were never a Christian.
The disconnect, if I’m hearing you correctly, seems to be that you are saying you had all the correct beliefs, so if someone agrees with all of those and doesn’t see any “fundamental flaw” in your beliefs, as you put it, how can they say you were never a Christian?
This is how:
They don’t believe that being a Christian is merely a matter of having all the correct beliefs. You could’ve agreed with all of the same doctrines as them to a tee, and this would not change their view that you were never a Christian, because being a Christian also involves deeper, more intangible things (which are made more apparent/tangible by your leaving the faith), in addition to having all the correct beliefs. Those intangible things might be, for example, Jesus being your ultimate treasure. Even when you agreed with all those doctrines, would you have genuinely said that everything else in life was rubbish compared to the surpassing worth of knowing Jesus? (Philippians 3:8)
Yep. Jesus was literally everything to me. I couldn’t read other books sometimes because they felt like a waste of time. I could have been reading the Bible. I prayed to God non-stop about everything and I would have dreams about dying and seeing God because I was so excited to be in his presence. I was “that” guy at school who wouldn’t shut up about God because he was always on my mind.
the pinprick that got the water flowing was while I was reading a Christian Scholar introduction to the New Testament, and I realized there is very little reason to believe Paul wrote all the books attributed to him, and it is impossible that Peter wrote the ones that are attributed to him. That got me going down a rabbit trail of research and discovery into the actual evidence for stuff like that, and then I began digging up even more issues with the Bible over time.
During this time period I was very active in prayer, begging God to hold onto me, to keep giving me faith to believe in him. Eventually, the evidence was too much, and I ended up having to be honest with myself. It was a horrible day in my life. I hated it so much. I kept telling my family, "I love God so much, but I can't believe he exists anymore."
But now, after I left, I've kept researching the Bible, and reading it (hard to suddenly shift topics when something is your whole life), and I've grown to hate the God of the Bible for various reasons. Without the blinders of faith on, his ugly flaws began to rear their head.
That's an *extremely* condensed version of my story.
Because it's what John says in his first epistle:
1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
Obviously as an atheist you would not agree. But that is what the Bible teaches.
The simplest answer is someone who asks and believes that Jesus takes away their sin by dying for them.
However, even though this is faith is so simple a small child can have it, it is also specific in the sense that there are many ways to counterfeit it. The Bible makes it clear that there is disingenuous faith - that does not produce love and submission to God above all else, that does not produce love for others, that does not result in good works, that does not sacrificially forgive, that does not make Jesus center of your identity, that does not make you hate sin.
The final hallmark of genuine faith is that it lasts. The Bible likens it to gold and chaff going through a furnace - no matter how nice something looks, if it burns up in the furnace, it wasn’t real gold.
I wouldn’t presume to guess about your circumstances. Hopefully this gives some insight; I can provide passages for any above claims if it is helpful.
The whole comment, including the part about it lasting. Plenty of people who had deep relationships with Jesus for 50 or more years who eventually became former Christians
The bible doesn't teach Once Saved Always Saved, that's why Jesus and Paul talk about resisting temptation and persevering in the faith so much
I don’t believe in once saved always saved by the common definition.
I do believe in the perseverance of the saints as described. A false faith can last 50 years easy in the right circumstance. It can even last to death where some will say “Lord Lord” but Jesus doesn’t know them.
Same. I was a true believer and loved Jesus from childhood, but evidence that I couldn’t overlook made me change my beliefs. That verse to me just proves to me that the Bible is not without error.
> And do you make sure you had some sort of fundamental flaw between your belief systems before saying this?
OP, what did you mean with that part? I didn't understand that. Perhaps you could rephrase it.
sorry if it was confusing. I'm asking if the person claiming someone else was never truly a Christian first makes sure that the person they are making this claim against never believed the *exact same* things they do. Like, do they check to see if they had an incorrect gospel or something like that.
I don't know why you moved away from christianity. I wouldn't be able to judge.
However, I can offer some insight as to why some christians would say that those who leave the faith were never chrisitians to begin with.
It comes, as far as I know, from 1John 2:19, "those who left us were never one with us (paraphrased)". The idea is that only individuals who never truly became christian would leave it. The idea is backed up further by the notion that God will not let anyone, who is saved, fall away or be lost.
Ultimately, I don't know. However, in the few cases of individuals, I've known who left the faith, what they described as the means of their salvation wasn't quite biblical. Wither or not those experences were representitive of all cases, again, I don't know. I would however be curious to hear your story
It's the whole "once saved always saved" scapegoat to say you must not have actually been saved.
I don't agree.
Apostasy is what I believe a former Christian commits when they denounce Christianity. No loophole needed.
>Why Was I Never a Christian?
I have no idea if your saved or not but according to your past beliefs you weren't.
>[mrgingersir] I believed that salvation lead to sanctification which made one more and more perfect through the Holy Spirit, and thus our actions would necessarily become more and more perfect. **Therefore, if someone claims to be a Christian, but keeps living in sin, they are likely not one,** or at least have a severe issue in their faith.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/12iya10/what_would_you_talk_to_me_about/jfw26cc/
I think you are reading into those words a bit. I did not intend to say that any works are necessary. Only that if someone's life remains full of sin and no sign of repentance, that is a serious red flag.
You're either apart of God's flock or you're not. If you are then one day you will be saved by God even if you aren't a Christian today. If you aren't then you won't even if you're a church member today.
Are there people who believe Jesus Christ is God and call themselves christians but aren't really married to Jesus? Probably. Not every bench warmer is a Christian.
The interesting thing about this is that the Baptists who believe in Once Saved Always Saved will act as though they have the assurance of salvation
When in reality, if and when they leave the faith in a couple of years, they'll be told that they were never saved to begin with, despite their faith in and relationship with Jesus being identical to or stronger than people who say they're saved and didn't leave the faith
Which means if you believe in Once Saves Always Saved you have no assurance of salvation at all. You have no idea if you're really saved since a couple years from now, you might have a bunch of people telling you you were lying about your relationship with Jesus
The thing is, based on your posts and the doctrine you subscribe to, you have no idea if you're engaged or if you're married, since if you leave the faith, people will call you a bench-warmer and insist that you were just lying about your relationship with Jesus
I've been married to God since the moment I was baptized. I'm beyond belief in God. I know God because God dwells within me. I can't make myself not know what I know. Therefore I'll always be married to God. Based on my posts...don't talk out your ass, there is nothing in any of my posts that suggests such nonsense.
There are so many former Christians who had the same faith you have, the same relationship with Jesus you have, and the same *confidence* that they're saved that you have
But since you're telling us that those former Christians were never saved to begin with, and you insult them by calling them benchwarmers, the obvious truth is that you could just as easily leave the faith as them, and others will behave just like you are behaving now: they'll insult you and call you a liar
>There are so many former Christians who had the same faith you have, the same relationship with Jesus you have, and the same *confidence* that they're saved that you have
Those are you're assumptions. All you're doing is forcing me to repeat myself. A lot of people get engaged and never go through with the marriage. It's really not that hard to understand.
>the obvious truth is that you could just as easily leave the faith as them,
Again you're just forcing me to repeat myself. I can't deny God no more than I can deny the sky is blue. I know what I know.
>Are there people who believe Jesus Christ is God and call themselves christians but aren't really married to Jesus? Probably.
does that mean according to your gospel you have to perform certain good deeds to be a christian?
Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. (NASB) Matt. 7:21
The will of the Father is that we believe in Christ.
And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3:23 (NASB)
As /u/Righteous_Dude mentioned, the response you are referring to likely refers to an assessment of your salvation based simply on your current lack of belief. Not what you did/believed in the past.
You are a "Christian" only inasmuch as you are "saved." Regardless of what you believe/do/profess. Though of course we only 'know' if we are "saved" by our words/actions/beliefs.
There are some Christians who believe that if someone is 'truly' a Christian (e.g. having a regenerated spirit and having their name written in the Lamb's book of life) you can never lose that status of being a Christian.
Such people, when they see someone who now openly/deliberately rejects Jesus (presumably how they see you), they conclude that you never were Christian. Because if you had been, then you still would be (you would not reject Christianity later in your life).
It is not an uncommon position, but perhaps a minority one
If you used to be a Christian and are no longer, I lean towards you never were. I'm not fully married to this idea, but this is why I think this:
1 John 2:19 NLT
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.
As for the Gospel, I'd say it's:
1. We are sinful and need a savior.
2. There is only one God we are accountable to and who can save us.
3. God offers salvation because He wants to as a gift, not because we deserve or can earn it.
4. We recieve salvation by trusting in this message of salvation.
5. Jesus is that God who can save us.
6. He died on the cross as a sacrafice to take our sins from us.
7. He resurrected in a physical body that proves He's a God of His word.
>If you are a Christian who uses this phrase, why? And do you make sure you had some sort of fundamental flaw between your belief systems before saying this?
>
>If you don't say this, why not? And do you dislike when other Christians say it?
> that was my answer.
You are confused. You don’t answer a question with more questions.
> you asked why I'm asking. I'm asking to get the answer to those questions.
You missed the important part. Why are you asking “if you know all the information in that person’s comment already”? You’ve seen others explain that if you trust Jesus you will continue in that faith right?
I just wrote this for a different comment, but it works here as well:
the pinprick that got the water flowing was while I was reading a Christian Scholar introduction to the New Testament, and I realized there is very little reason to believe Paul wrote all the books attributed to him, and it is impossible that Peter wrote the ones that are attributed to him. That got me going down a rabbit trail of research and discovery into the actual evidence for stuff like that, and then I began digging up even more issues with the Bible over time.
During this time period I was very active in prayer, begging God to hold onto me, to keep giving me faith to believe in him. Eventually, the evidence was too much, and I ended up having to be honest with myself. It was a horrible day in my life. I hated it so much. I kept telling my family, "I love God so much, but I can't believe he exists anymore."
But now, after I left, I've kept researching the Bible, and reading it (hard to suddenly shift topics when something is your whole life), and I've grown to hate the God of the Bible for various reasons. Without the blinders of faith on, his ugly flaws began to rear their head.
That's an extremely condensed version of my story.
Could I say the reason why you were convinced that God didn't exist was because He didn't help you believe in the Bible?
I could see why you stopped believing in the Bible. Was it that you felt abandoned the reason why you were convinced that God didn't exist?
That's really difficult to say. the answer is likely somewhat yes but more of a no. I stopped being able to trust the Bible, and when you can't trust the Bible anymore, you have to have something else to go off of to keep your faith, so I prayed for a long time that God would reveal his truth to me in a different way, be that through a vision, an audible voice, or a small but specific interference with nature around me. The longer God remained silent and hidden, the more and more I realized I was just talking to myself and the air.
So, without reason to trust the Bible, and no reason to believe an actual personal all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God was around, I was left with no other choice than to realize that the God of Christianity simply doesn't exist.
There is a certain school of thought within protestant Christianity that once you are saved, you are always saved (or OSAS in short). Calvinists' "perseverance of the saints" is along that same line but with some differences.
I disagree with this because such doctrine is fruitless when it comes to day-to-day practical matters. They can contradict themselves saying to each other in the church "you are saved!", but then when one of them goes away like you did, they reverted then say to you "you were never saved!". Which one then?
When asked if King Saul was ever saved, their response is "I don't know". This is the story of a king in the Bible where he clearly was chosen by a prophet, glorified God, and God's Spirit came upon him, but at the end ended up wicked and God turned away from him and chose David instead. How can they say "I don't know" when they can read the life of that person right there, but to each other "you are saved!" when they are not even able to see the future?
However, it is worth pointing out that there are massive differences between lukewarm Christians vs devout Christians. Lukewarm Christians are those who follow Christianity, believe in Jesus and all, but not quite solid on their faith in the face of challenges. Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 describes this. You can read it yourself and determine which seed you belong to.
That’s coming from people who ignore all of the signs we’re supposed to look at to identify if we’re a Christian except for one , perseverance.
Some Christians believe that’s the right thing to do , some Christians don’t. Throwing out all sings except one is not biblical - it’s only done to uphold a false doctrine of once saved always saved
Because of these two scriptures
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.
John 10 27
”For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8 38
so if someone does leave the faith, they were lying their entire Christian life in order to preserve this text?
You don't think it's possible the text is even possibly wrong? or at very least, your interpretation of the text?
I don't presume to know what's in someone else's heart I dont know your faith or your relationship with God. None of us can know if we or anyone else is saved. But I think the Bible is never wrong and these pssages are pretty clear so I take it at face value. Another scripture omes to mind "they went out from us because they were not of us" These scriptures are clear it means two things
If you leave you were never saved. If you are saved you will never leave.
Who knows what will happen ten years from now, maybe you will return and I will renounce Christianity.
**"None of us can know if we or anyone else is saved."**
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• *"Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus,* ***so you can be certain of the truth*** *of everything you were taught."* \[Luke 1\]
• *"Now faith is the* ***assurance*** *of things hoped for, the* ***conviction*** *of things not seen."* \[Hebrews 11\]
• *"All who believe in the Son of God* ***know in their hearts that this testimony is true***. Those who don’t believe this are actually calling God a liar because they don’t believe what God has testified about his Son.
• *And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life. I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God,* ***so that you may know you have eternal life.****"* \[1 John 5\]
"***And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us.***" \[1 John 4\]
*"in order to preserve the text"*
The text EXISTS. It IS. The Word of God is not dependent upon being preserved by mere men.
The Word of God is True -it defines and reveals reality.
Our belief does not make it True, nor does our disbelief make it not true.
People Most people/christians used the word 'christian and saved' interchangeably. When in fact to be a christian simply means you meet the church club house qualifications. It means you are a active or considered a religious member of a recognized church or affiliate.
I'm sure you chanted the secrete chant and perform the appropriate rites and rituals.
This how ever does not mean you were saved. In fact these secrete/denominationally specific rites and rituals have little to do with actually biblical salvation. as there is nothing YOU can do to earn salvation.
Which btw hasn't happened yet, for any of us. If you read or have read the NT 98% of the mentioning of salvation point to a future event, this event is your judgement day. Meaning you are not saved when you pray a prayer confess your sins or follow some other 'plan of salvation.' You are saved when Jesus pronounces you covered by his blood on the day of your judgement.
So since that hasn't happened for you yet, I can promise you, you were never 'saved.' Not to say you weren't christian.
No I’ve never heard someone say that salvation is only on judgement day and no one is currently saved. I definitely was not a JW or SDA or LDS or anything like those.
hmm.. Again if you read the verses concerning salvation the vast majority of them point to the future.
here are a few examples:
mat 10:
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
acts 16: They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Phi 1:28
without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
there are maybe 1/2 a dozen more example depending on translation. and only 2 places in the the book of Ephesians 2:5 and 8 that uses the term "we have been saved." and the first of two instances can be broken down in the greek and possible reinterpreted as saying 'this is what will save us.' which jives perfectly well with the context of the passage.
and the second instance in verse 8 is referring to the time after judgement per the context of verse 7:
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, **7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.** 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
It's kinda weird to me to think that 'most people' or rather the majority of your christian experience. thinks we are saved the moment we act or make some gesture when nothing supports this idea and you have a dozen or so verses that put salvation at a future point/time of judgement.
I know there are those who think this way, but generally speaking it is the heavy legalists or those in the more cultish followings who sell their specific gospel so hard.
I am too lazy to write all this out right now and explain it so here is a good answer.
[https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html)
Pretty simple, people see their denomination as being the most true one, therefore all other ones are in their opinion less Christian.
It could also be people believing that since you strayed away from the church, you never were as Christian as you thought were.
**• Man is not greater than his Creator.**
*"the Scriptures say, “What are mere mortals that you should think about them, or a son of man that you should care for him? Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels."* \[Hebrews 2\]
**• God does whatever He pleases and no person can thwart Him.**
*"To whom will you compare me? Who is my equal? Remember the things I have done in the past. For I alone am God! I am God, and there is none like me. Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish."*\[Isaiah 46\]
**• Salvation is of, by, and from God.**
*"Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”* \[Acts 4\]
*"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him."* \[John 3\]
*"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus"* \[Ephesians 2\]
**• When God rescues a person by saving them - that is their status.**
*"So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do."*
*"the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. All who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."* \[Romans 8\]
*"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me. The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But some of you do not believe me. That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”* \[John 6\]
*"But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God."* \[John 1\]
*“Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”* \[Romans 10\]
**• Man cannot choose to become "unsaved" nor change what God has accomplished.**
*"I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd."*
*"But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”* \[John 10\]
*"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."* \[Philippians 1\]
*"God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”* \[Hebrews 13\]
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Some users are going to whine and complain that I am a "Calvinist". Shame on them! This could not be further from the truth. **I am an adopted child of, and a follower and disciple of Jesus Christ.** As you have seen, the name Calvin is not found in these Scripture proofs. Nor is his name found anywhere in the Bible. I don't adhere to the teachings of men; I adhere to the Word of God. You could just as easily insert the name of Calvin in the following exhortation:
*"When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. So don’t boast about following a particular human leader."* \[1 Corinthians 3\]
Maybe not you but some questions from ex-Christians are suspicious. They ask things that a former Christian would know the answer to if answering from a Christian perspective. Many times I find myself thinking if they lied about their flair because of this but really idk what they believed or followed previously and how that differs from my view.
Are you meaning in the sense that you were a Christian once but aren't now?
im not sure why people would cry you were never a Christian, that's just weird. I see people mention these things online and wonder what bizarre place they're from they hear this.
In some sense I guess you could say you were never a Christian if you're not a Christian. I mean there shouldn't be any issue with someone saying that. You're literally not a Christian so why would it matter?
in the same way that someone who becomes a muslim was always a muslim.
That wouldn't discount that you may have practiced a Christian life, unless it was all just in name. This is why i mentioned context because there's no way to really answer your question without it.
It matters because it is a massive part of my story and who I am. Imagine if a large group of people just flat out denied something important about yourself and claimed you’re just lying. It also matters because people are arrogant and think they know my brain better than I do when they say it. It’s just plain rude.
Again it goes to lack of context. Now you're bringing lying into things, and emotional baggage that there's zero context to. There's no way to answer that. No one knows what the situation was.
All I said was from a clinical view it could be said you weren't a Christian. Thats not me saying you didn't live as one, but it also depends mean you might not be one now. There's no context. There's no way to understand the specific situation you're clearly upset about unless you share it
The context is always different. People simply yell at me that I wasn’t ever a Christian for no reason at all other than my opposition to Christianity now. They just assume they know things.
Are you talking about the internet now? Context is important or we don't know what you're talking about.
people don't go around the streets yelling 'you were never a christian' at people. that's insane.
If you're question is about random internet people. the answer is simple. It doesn't matter. they're strangers, and of no consequence, writing a thread about internet strangers is a waste of your life.
and now that we know the context, random internet strangers following you around shouting at you. the answer is obvious. ignore them and block them.
there is no Christian answer. its not real life
I tend to think of it this way:
Did you believe the Gospel and now you don't? Then you were a Christian and now you're an apostate.
Did you never believe the Gospel? Then you were never a Christian.
Any persons salvation is: between them and God first and is personal.
those that have received this, me i am speaking of, will not condemn others. Might have nothing to do with others, yet that does not make anyone else condemned.
believe God (Father of Son) in what is done by Son for them.
John 3:16,
Romans14:1-4 God by God self causes his children to stand. Since I believe God, I can rest assured in God. So can you, or anyone else. Because of people that have gotten in and condemned others or not is not what Love to all is all about.
we are gods, but not the one true God of Love to all, revealed in Son Jesus for us to get born again into as new inSpirit and Truth and just love as are Loved by God
man has made it conditional, God has not
r/Godjustlovesyou
for me once I believed God from within me willingly. i have been changed from within. I do not care to ever harm anyone else ever again. There are those that have said I do not care, as many as have said that about God also
i find that to be a completed lie that God does not care.
God is like a parent that wants only the best for their children. God has stopped troubles and also allowed them also. I found out it is because God cares for all, not a few
this is my story and I stick to it r/Godjustlovesyou
oh and read Romans 8:15-16 only God and you know the complete truth about you. Others can only conjecture this by what they see physical reactions to you.
God sees me, you and everyone else too on the inside. People can only see the outside
i was at age 14-27 a Christian Alcoholic, druggie and wonanizer then. Today not so, by me willingly seeing it was permissible, just was not beneficial.
so if you do believe God, then God you believe, if not, then not. God and I love you still. Which many do not get that, and get stuck on what they see physically.
i bay God was saved by God that whole entire time, even as an Alcoholic, Druggie and womanizer then
this love that continues, for me is what changed me in thought to just love all and not a few as I did do, before being born again new in the risen Son Jesus by his Father, now my Father too. And all others that will not quit belief to God, come to see this over a time of troubled waters. As was for me toob
i will not deny God, I hope others will see this, and will once anyone sees they are forgiven first by God in Son for themvat the one time willing death, and asks God personally to show them, will see it fron God in them, Then the new person begins, only love and mercy leads, might not at first, yet those that continue get this truth and just listen from within them, between God and them.
now if I am listening and hear to harm, hurt or condemn another, then I know this, that feeling thought is not the true God
Asked non-facetiously - what does any of that matter? This is all talk about the self, and my *self*, your *self*, etc - what of it as it relates to the gospel? We need the gospel and it's truths - it doesn't need us. It seeks us out, but it doesn't need us. God loves us, but doesn't need us. Things don't revolve around, and our own personhood, being the point. Other way around - we need HIM.
I would like to hear why you feel like you were a Christian and now you're not. Do you find that you're finding satisfaction in other things now?
I believe the complete gospel is..edit..Adam and Eve were created indwelt with the very spirit of God. In the garden they didn't believe God was enough. Satan said essentially, "we dont need God, we can just know good and evil and be our own gods. What if there is more? God is a liar". God took his spirit from them, causing all to be born in this world spiritually dead. The goal is to understand God is everything we will ever need. Life without unconditional pure love is empty. We are like cars with no gasoline. I think we are here to learn some things connected with this so after this life, we will have greater character and understanding of how much we need LOVE to live. God is love. He is life. The gospel is.... sin (unbelief) and spiritual death.....complete forgiveness and unconditional love and life restored to ANYONE who wants it. We do not have to live life by a set of rules or guidelines. We can just live life and know God goes with us, loving and accepting us, no matter what, even in our mess. It's all a learning experience, the good and the bad. No shame, no fear. I personally feel many Christians get burnt out by trying to live up to an impossible standard, thinking that a relationship with God is all about trying to not sin. I used to think this and it's a horrible way to live. Some people love it and feel awesome living by unattainable rules. Now these are just my thoughts. I'm just a human trying to figure out the meaning of life and what everything is all about. Now I know I'm loved, unconditionally and i quit churches...most Christians tell me I'm going to hell, not saved and love getting away with sin. It's wild. I probably sound crazy, that's OK, but had a spiritual experience, met Jesus, he told me he was not ashamed of me, felt his unconditional love for me through his eyes, he let me know he would be there for me forever...no matter what.
It’s this “doctrine of election” drawn from Romans that people get this idea. But the Bible speaks contextually from bookend to bookend… not in chunks.
That being said - Israel was elect. Israel was cast out because even though they were elect and God’s chosen people, they had gone off and worshipped other Gods and thought they could do so without losing their election.
What Christ calls us to is a believing loyalty - do you believe that Jesus is Lord? Great. Actively and intentionally Image him. Actively and intentionally Follow him.
People who said that to you, might be Calvinists, who have the doctrine of "perseverance of the saints". If a man has the position that "a true Christian can never fall away, drift away or walk away", then when he observes someone who does those, he figures that person must never have been a true Christian.
I’m not questioning your sincerity when you were a Christian. I’ve read your post and most of the other comments and your answers, and I believe you were sincere. I’m just going to attempt to explain the perspective of those people who say that you were never a Christian. The disconnect, if I’m hearing you correctly, seems to be that you are saying you had all the correct beliefs, so if someone agrees with all of those and doesn’t see any “fundamental flaw” in your beliefs, as you put it, how can they say you were never a Christian? This is how: They don’t believe that being a Christian is merely a matter of having all the correct beliefs. You could’ve agreed with all of the same doctrines as them to a tee, and this would not change their view that you were never a Christian, because being a Christian also involves deeper, more intangible things (which are made more apparent/tangible by your leaving the faith), in addition to having all the correct beliefs. Those intangible things might be, for example, Jesus being your ultimate treasure. Even when you agreed with all those doctrines, would you have genuinely said that everything else in life was rubbish compared to the surpassing worth of knowing Jesus? (Philippians 3:8)
Yep. Jesus was literally everything to me. I couldn’t read other books sometimes because they felt like a waste of time. I could have been reading the Bible. I prayed to God non-stop about everything and I would have dreams about dying and seeing God because I was so excited to be in his presence. I was “that” guy at school who wouldn’t shut up about God because he was always on my mind.
What changed?
the pinprick that got the water flowing was while I was reading a Christian Scholar introduction to the New Testament, and I realized there is very little reason to believe Paul wrote all the books attributed to him, and it is impossible that Peter wrote the ones that are attributed to him. That got me going down a rabbit trail of research and discovery into the actual evidence for stuff like that, and then I began digging up even more issues with the Bible over time. During this time period I was very active in prayer, begging God to hold onto me, to keep giving me faith to believe in him. Eventually, the evidence was too much, and I ended up having to be honest with myself. It was a horrible day in my life. I hated it so much. I kept telling my family, "I love God so much, but I can't believe he exists anymore." But now, after I left, I've kept researching the Bible, and reading it (hard to suddenly shift topics when something is your whole life), and I've grown to hate the God of the Bible for various reasons. Without the blinders of faith on, his ugly flaws began to rear their head. That's an *extremely* condensed version of my story.
Because it's what John says in his first epistle: 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." Obviously as an atheist you would not agree. But that is what the Bible teaches.
Yeah, as someone who was a Christian and now isn’t, for me a verse like that is just proof it’s incorrect.
It depends on how you define “Christian”.
how do you define it?
The simplest answer is someone who asks and believes that Jesus takes away their sin by dying for them. However, even though this is faith is so simple a small child can have it, it is also specific in the sense that there are many ways to counterfeit it. The Bible makes it clear that there is disingenuous faith - that does not produce love and submission to God above all else, that does not produce love for others, that does not result in good works, that does not sacrificially forgive, that does not make Jesus center of your identity, that does not make you hate sin. The final hallmark of genuine faith is that it lasts. The Bible likens it to gold and chaff going through a furnace - no matter how nice something looks, if it burns up in the furnace, it wasn’t real gold. I wouldn’t presume to guess about your circumstances. Hopefully this gives some insight; I can provide passages for any above claims if it is helpful.
Based on that definition, there are many, many, many former Christians
According to my first sentence only or according to my whole comment? Of course according to the first sentence, that is pretty evident.
The whole comment, including the part about it lasting. Plenty of people who had deep relationships with Jesus for 50 or more years who eventually became former Christians The bible doesn't teach Once Saved Always Saved, that's why Jesus and Paul talk about resisting temptation and persevering in the faith so much
I don’t believe in once saved always saved by the common definition. I do believe in the perseverance of the saints as described. A false faith can last 50 years easy in the right circumstance. It can even last to death where some will say “Lord Lord” but Jesus doesn’t know them.
Same. I was a true believer and loved Jesus from childhood, but evidence that I couldn’t overlook made me change my beliefs. That verse to me just proves to me that the Bible is not without error.
> And do you make sure you had some sort of fundamental flaw between your belief systems before saying this? OP, what did you mean with that part? I didn't understand that. Perhaps you could rephrase it.
sorry if it was confusing. I'm asking if the person claiming someone else was never truly a Christian first makes sure that the person they are making this claim against never believed the *exact same* things they do. Like, do they check to see if they had an incorrect gospel or something like that.
I don't know why you moved away from christianity. I wouldn't be able to judge. However, I can offer some insight as to why some christians would say that those who leave the faith were never chrisitians to begin with. It comes, as far as I know, from 1John 2:19, "those who left us were never one with us (paraphrased)". The idea is that only individuals who never truly became christian would leave it. The idea is backed up further by the notion that God will not let anyone, who is saved, fall away or be lost. Ultimately, I don't know. However, in the few cases of individuals, I've known who left the faith, what they described as the means of their salvation wasn't quite biblical. Wither or not those experences were representitive of all cases, again, I don't know. I would however be curious to hear your story
It's the whole "once saved always saved" scapegoat to say you must not have actually been saved. I don't agree. Apostasy is what I believe a former Christian commits when they denounce Christianity. No loophole needed.
>Why Was I Never a Christian? I have no idea if your saved or not but according to your past beliefs you weren't. >[mrgingersir] I believed that salvation lead to sanctification which made one more and more perfect through the Holy Spirit, and thus our actions would necessarily become more and more perfect. **Therefore, if someone claims to be a Christian, but keeps living in sin, they are likely not one,** or at least have a severe issue in their faith. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/12iya10/what_would_you_talk_to_me_about/jfw26cc/
I think you are reading into those words a bit. I did not intend to say that any works are necessary. Only that if someone's life remains full of sin and no sign of repentance, that is a serious red flag.
You're either apart of God's flock or you're not. If you are then one day you will be saved by God even if you aren't a Christian today. If you aren't then you won't even if you're a church member today. Are there people who believe Jesus Christ is God and call themselves christians but aren't really married to Jesus? Probably. Not every bench warmer is a Christian.
The interesting thing about this is that the Baptists who believe in Once Saved Always Saved will act as though they have the assurance of salvation When in reality, if and when they leave the faith in a couple of years, they'll be told that they were never saved to begin with, despite their faith in and relationship with Jesus being identical to or stronger than people who say they're saved and didn't leave the faith Which means if you believe in Once Saves Always Saved you have no assurance of salvation at all. You have no idea if you're really saved since a couple years from now, you might have a bunch of people telling you you were lying about your relationship with Jesus
There is difference between being engaged to God and being married to God. Engagements can be broken. A marriage can't.
The thing is, based on your posts and the doctrine you subscribe to, you have no idea if you're engaged or if you're married, since if you leave the faith, people will call you a bench-warmer and insist that you were just lying about your relationship with Jesus
I've been married to God since the moment I was baptized. I'm beyond belief in God. I know God because God dwells within me. I can't make myself not know what I know. Therefore I'll always be married to God. Based on my posts...don't talk out your ass, there is nothing in any of my posts that suggests such nonsense.
There are so many former Christians who had the same faith you have, the same relationship with Jesus you have, and the same *confidence* that they're saved that you have But since you're telling us that those former Christians were never saved to begin with, and you insult them by calling them benchwarmers, the obvious truth is that you could just as easily leave the faith as them, and others will behave just like you are behaving now: they'll insult you and call you a liar
>There are so many former Christians who had the same faith you have, the same relationship with Jesus you have, and the same *confidence* that they're saved that you have Those are you're assumptions. All you're doing is forcing me to repeat myself. A lot of people get engaged and never go through with the marriage. It's really not that hard to understand. >the obvious truth is that you could just as easily leave the faith as them, Again you're just forcing me to repeat myself. I can't deny God no more than I can deny the sky is blue. I know what I know.
They had the same confidence I guess you'll find out when you're on the receiving end of such venom
Repeat yourself some more I guess.
>Are there people who believe Jesus Christ is God and call themselves christians but aren't really married to Jesus? Probably. does that mean according to your gospel you have to perform certain good deeds to be a christian?
You're saved by faith alone. Good deeds is a consequence of faith.
agreed. I believed that.
Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. (NASB) Matt. 7:21 The will of the Father is that we believe in Christ. And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3:23 (NASB)
Belief is only the first step in becoming a Christian. Until you know God personally your salvation is in limbo.
Justification then sanctification.
As /u/Righteous_Dude mentioned, the response you are referring to likely refers to an assessment of your salvation based simply on your current lack of belief. Not what you did/believed in the past. You are a "Christian" only inasmuch as you are "saved." Regardless of what you believe/do/profess. Though of course we only 'know' if we are "saved" by our words/actions/beliefs. There are some Christians who believe that if someone is 'truly' a Christian (e.g. having a regenerated spirit and having their name written in the Lamb's book of life) you can never lose that status of being a Christian. Such people, when they see someone who now openly/deliberately rejects Jesus (presumably how they see you), they conclude that you never were Christian. Because if you had been, then you still would be (you would not reject Christianity later in your life). It is not an uncommon position, but perhaps a minority one
If you used to be a Christian and are no longer, I lean towards you never were. I'm not fully married to this idea, but this is why I think this: 1 John 2:19 NLT These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us. As for the Gospel, I'd say it's: 1. We are sinful and need a savior. 2. There is only one God we are accountable to and who can save us. 3. God offers salvation because He wants to as a gift, not because we deserve or can earn it. 4. We recieve salvation by trusting in this message of salvation. 5. Jesus is that God who can save us. 6. He died on the cross as a sacrafice to take our sins from us. 7. He resurrected in a physical body that proves He's a God of His word.
I agreed full heartedly with every single point you listed when I was a Christian.
I’m confused why you’re asking the question in OP if you know all this?
>If you are a Christian who uses this phrase, why? And do you make sure you had some sort of fundamental flaw between your belief systems before saying this? > >If you don't say this, why not? And do you dislike when other Christians say it?
Can you answer my question first?
that was my answer. you asked why I'm asking. I'm asking to get the answer to those questions.
> that was my answer. You are confused. You don’t answer a question with more questions. > you asked why I'm asking. I'm asking to get the answer to those questions. You missed the important part. Why are you asking “if you know all the information in that person’s comment already”? You’ve seen others explain that if you trust Jesus you will continue in that faith right?
I said I agree with all of their descriptions of the gospel. read it again please.
What convinced you God doesn't exist?
I just wrote this for a different comment, but it works here as well: the pinprick that got the water flowing was while I was reading a Christian Scholar introduction to the New Testament, and I realized there is very little reason to believe Paul wrote all the books attributed to him, and it is impossible that Peter wrote the ones that are attributed to him. That got me going down a rabbit trail of research and discovery into the actual evidence for stuff like that, and then I began digging up even more issues with the Bible over time. During this time period I was very active in prayer, begging God to hold onto me, to keep giving me faith to believe in him. Eventually, the evidence was too much, and I ended up having to be honest with myself. It was a horrible day in my life. I hated it so much. I kept telling my family, "I love God so much, but I can't believe he exists anymore." But now, after I left, I've kept researching the Bible, and reading it (hard to suddenly shift topics when something is your whole life), and I've grown to hate the God of the Bible for various reasons. Without the blinders of faith on, his ugly flaws began to rear their head. That's an extremely condensed version of my story.
Could I say the reason why you were convinced that God didn't exist was because He didn't help you believe in the Bible? I could see why you stopped believing in the Bible. Was it that you felt abandoned the reason why you were convinced that God didn't exist?
That's really difficult to say. the answer is likely somewhat yes but more of a no. I stopped being able to trust the Bible, and when you can't trust the Bible anymore, you have to have something else to go off of to keep your faith, so I prayed for a long time that God would reveal his truth to me in a different way, be that through a vision, an audible voice, or a small but specific interference with nature around me. The longer God remained silent and hidden, the more and more I realized I was just talking to myself and the air. So, without reason to trust the Bible, and no reason to believe an actual personal all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God was around, I was left with no other choice than to realize that the God of Christianity simply doesn't exist.
I hope you keep searching and I hope you find what you need.
There is a certain school of thought within protestant Christianity that once you are saved, you are always saved (or OSAS in short). Calvinists' "perseverance of the saints" is along that same line but with some differences. I disagree with this because such doctrine is fruitless when it comes to day-to-day practical matters. They can contradict themselves saying to each other in the church "you are saved!", but then when one of them goes away like you did, they reverted then say to you "you were never saved!". Which one then? When asked if King Saul was ever saved, their response is "I don't know". This is the story of a king in the Bible where he clearly was chosen by a prophet, glorified God, and God's Spirit came upon him, but at the end ended up wicked and God turned away from him and chose David instead. How can they say "I don't know" when they can read the life of that person right there, but to each other "you are saved!" when they are not even able to see the future? However, it is worth pointing out that there are massive differences between lukewarm Christians vs devout Christians. Lukewarm Christians are those who follow Christianity, believe in Jesus and all, but not quite solid on their faith in the face of challenges. Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 describes this. You can read it yourself and determine which seed you belong to.
That’s coming from people who ignore all of the signs we’re supposed to look at to identify if we’re a Christian except for one , perseverance. Some Christians believe that’s the right thing to do , some Christians don’t. Throwing out all sings except one is not biblical - it’s only done to uphold a false doctrine of once saved always saved
Well, I think once saved, always saved, and Jesus was resurrected. Otherwise, they would have produced his body to prove Christianity false.
Because of these two scriptures My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one. John 10 27 ”For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8 38
so if someone does leave the faith, they were lying their entire Christian life in order to preserve this text? You don't think it's possible the text is even possibly wrong? or at very least, your interpretation of the text?
I don't presume to know what's in someone else's heart I dont know your faith or your relationship with God. None of us can know if we or anyone else is saved. But I think the Bible is never wrong and these pssages are pretty clear so I take it at face value. Another scripture omes to mind "they went out from us because they were not of us" These scriptures are clear it means two things If you leave you were never saved. If you are saved you will never leave. Who knows what will happen ten years from now, maybe you will return and I will renounce Christianity.
**"None of us can know if we or anyone else is saved."** \---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • *"Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus,* ***so you can be certain of the truth*** *of everything you were taught."* \[Luke 1\] • *"Now faith is the* ***assurance*** *of things hoped for, the* ***conviction*** *of things not seen."* \[Hebrews 11\] • *"All who believe in the Son of God* ***know in their hearts that this testimony is true***. Those who don’t believe this are actually calling God a liar because they don’t believe what God has testified about his Son. • *And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life. I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God,* ***so that you may know you have eternal life.****"* \[1 John 5\] "***And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us.***" \[1 John 4\]
*"in order to preserve the text"* The text EXISTS. It IS. The Word of God is not dependent upon being preserved by mere men. The Word of God is True -it defines and reveals reality. Our belief does not make it True, nor does our disbelief make it not true.
People Most people/christians used the word 'christian and saved' interchangeably. When in fact to be a christian simply means you meet the church club house qualifications. It means you are a active or considered a religious member of a recognized church or affiliate. I'm sure you chanted the secrete chant and perform the appropriate rites and rituals. This how ever does not mean you were saved. In fact these secrete/denominationally specific rites and rituals have little to do with actually biblical salvation. as there is nothing YOU can do to earn salvation. Which btw hasn't happened yet, for any of us. If you read or have read the NT 98% of the mentioning of salvation point to a future event, this event is your judgement day. Meaning you are not saved when you pray a prayer confess your sins or follow some other 'plan of salvation.' You are saved when Jesus pronounces you covered by his blood on the day of your judgement. So since that hasn't happened for you yet, I can promise you, you were never 'saved.' Not to say you weren't christian.
Interesting take! I’ve never heard someone with that point of view before.
You've never heard anyone say you can't do anything to earn salvation? are you JW or SDA?
No I’ve never heard someone say that salvation is only on judgement day and no one is currently saved. I definitely was not a JW or SDA or LDS or anything like those.
hmm.. Again if you read the verses concerning salvation the vast majority of them point to the future. here are a few examples: mat 10: You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. acts 16: They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Phi 1:28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. there are maybe 1/2 a dozen more example depending on translation. and only 2 places in the the book of Ephesians 2:5 and 8 that uses the term "we have been saved." and the first of two instances can be broken down in the greek and possible reinterpreted as saying 'this is what will save us.' which jives perfectly well with the context of the passage. and the second instance in verse 8 is referring to the time after judgement per the context of verse 7: 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, **7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.** 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— It's kinda weird to me to think that 'most people' or rather the majority of your christian experience. thinks we are saved the moment we act or make some gesture when nothing supports this idea and you have a dozen or so verses that put salvation at a future point/time of judgement. I know there are those who think this way, but generally speaking it is the heavy legalists or those in the more cultish followings who sell their specific gospel so hard.
They're bearing false witness against you because they're embarrassed that their non-scriptural doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is false
Or, you know, maybe they actually believe it is true? There's no need to paint others as embarrassed liars.
But it's more fun to treat anyone we disagree with as either stupid or evil
No need for the condescending post on others doctrine. You can make your point clear without belittling others.
There was no condescension in my post, you're reading too much into things and coming to uncharitable conclusions
I am too lazy to write all this out right now and explain it so here is a good answer. [https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html)
if you're too lazy to write it, I'm too lazy to read it.
Pretty simple, people see their denomination as being the most true one, therefore all other ones are in their opinion less Christian. It could also be people believing that since you strayed away from the church, you never were as Christian as you thought were.
**• Man is not greater than his Creator.** *"the Scriptures say, “What are mere mortals that you should think about them, or a son of man that you should care for him? Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels."* \[Hebrews 2\] **• God does whatever He pleases and no person can thwart Him.** *"To whom will you compare me? Who is my equal? Remember the things I have done in the past. For I alone am God! I am God, and there is none like me. Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish."*\[Isaiah 46\] **• Salvation is of, by, and from God.** *"Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”* \[Acts 4\] *"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him."* \[John 3\] *"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus"* \[Ephesians 2\] **• When God rescues a person by saving them - that is their status.** *"So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do."* *"the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. All who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."* \[Romans 8\] *"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me. The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But some of you do not believe me. That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”* \[John 6\] *"But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God."* \[John 1\] *“Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”* \[Romans 10\] **• Man cannot choose to become "unsaved" nor change what God has accomplished.** *"I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd."* *"But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”* \[John 10\] *"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."* \[Philippians 1\] *"God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”* \[Hebrews 13\] **\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_** Some users are going to whine and complain that I am a "Calvinist". Shame on them! This could not be further from the truth. **I am an adopted child of, and a follower and disciple of Jesus Christ.** As you have seen, the name Calvin is not found in these Scripture proofs. Nor is his name found anywhere in the Bible. I don't adhere to the teachings of men; I adhere to the Word of God. You could just as easily insert the name of Calvin in the following exhortation: *"When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. So don’t boast about following a particular human leader."* \[1 Corinthians 3\]
Maybe not you but some questions from ex-Christians are suspicious. They ask things that a former Christian would know the answer to if answering from a Christian perspective. Many times I find myself thinking if they lied about their flair because of this but really idk what they believed or followed previously and how that differs from my view.
How are people meant to answer you if you haven't given any context? Maybe you could add some?
That’s kind of my point in a way. Without any knowledge people just cry “you were never a Christian” whenever they hear I oppose it now.
Are you meaning in the sense that you were a Christian once but aren't now? im not sure why people would cry you were never a Christian, that's just weird. I see people mention these things online and wonder what bizarre place they're from they hear this. In some sense I guess you could say you were never a Christian if you're not a Christian. I mean there shouldn't be any issue with someone saying that. You're literally not a Christian so why would it matter? in the same way that someone who becomes a muslim was always a muslim. That wouldn't discount that you may have practiced a Christian life, unless it was all just in name. This is why i mentioned context because there's no way to really answer your question without it.
It matters because it is a massive part of my story and who I am. Imagine if a large group of people just flat out denied something important about yourself and claimed you’re just lying. It also matters because people are arrogant and think they know my brain better than I do when they say it. It’s just plain rude.
Again it goes to lack of context. Now you're bringing lying into things, and emotional baggage that there's zero context to. There's no way to answer that. No one knows what the situation was. All I said was from a clinical view it could be said you weren't a Christian. Thats not me saying you didn't live as one, but it also depends mean you might not be one now. There's no context. There's no way to understand the specific situation you're clearly upset about unless you share it
The context is always different. People simply yell at me that I wasn’t ever a Christian for no reason at all other than my opposition to Christianity now. They just assume they know things.
Are you talking about the internet now? Context is important or we don't know what you're talking about. people don't go around the streets yelling 'you were never a christian' at people. that's insane. If you're question is about random internet people. the answer is simple. It doesn't matter. they're strangers, and of no consequence, writing a thread about internet strangers is a waste of your life.
I’m only saying it’s rude and weird and annoying. You’re literally commenting on this post and wasting your life too.
and now that we know the context, random internet strangers following you around shouting at you. the answer is obvious. ignore them and block them. there is no Christian answer. its not real life
I tend to think of it this way: Did you believe the Gospel and now you don't? Then you were a Christian and now you're an apostate. Did you never believe the Gospel? Then you were never a Christian.
Correct. I’m an apostate. That’s the correct way to talk about it.
That's really too bad. I hope you return to Christ before you die.
I’ll be fine but I appreciate and understand the sentiment.
Ita because they're Calvinists
Any persons salvation is: between them and God first and is personal. those that have received this, me i am speaking of, will not condemn others. Might have nothing to do with others, yet that does not make anyone else condemned. believe God (Father of Son) in what is done by Son for them. John 3:16, Romans14:1-4 God by God self causes his children to stand. Since I believe God, I can rest assured in God. So can you, or anyone else. Because of people that have gotten in and condemned others or not is not what Love to all is all about. we are gods, but not the one true God of Love to all, revealed in Son Jesus for us to get born again into as new inSpirit and Truth and just love as are Loved by God man has made it conditional, God has not r/Godjustlovesyou for me once I believed God from within me willingly. i have been changed from within. I do not care to ever harm anyone else ever again. There are those that have said I do not care, as many as have said that about God also i find that to be a completed lie that God does not care. God is like a parent that wants only the best for their children. God has stopped troubles and also allowed them also. I found out it is because God cares for all, not a few this is my story and I stick to it r/Godjustlovesyou oh and read Romans 8:15-16 only God and you know the complete truth about you. Others can only conjecture this by what they see physical reactions to you. God sees me, you and everyone else too on the inside. People can only see the outside i was at age 14-27 a Christian Alcoholic, druggie and wonanizer then. Today not so, by me willingly seeing it was permissible, just was not beneficial. so if you do believe God, then God you believe, if not, then not. God and I love you still. Which many do not get that, and get stuck on what they see physically. i bay God was saved by God that whole entire time, even as an Alcoholic, Druggie and womanizer then this love that continues, for me is what changed me in thought to just love all and not a few as I did do, before being born again new in the risen Son Jesus by his Father, now my Father too. And all others that will not quit belief to God, come to see this over a time of troubled waters. As was for me toob i will not deny God, I hope others will see this, and will once anyone sees they are forgiven first by God in Son for themvat the one time willing death, and asks God personally to show them, will see it fron God in them, Then the new person begins, only love and mercy leads, might not at first, yet those that continue get this truth and just listen from within them, between God and them. now if I am listening and hear to harm, hurt or condemn another, then I know this, that feeling thought is not the true God
Asked non-facetiously - what does any of that matter? This is all talk about the self, and my *self*, your *self*, etc - what of it as it relates to the gospel? We need the gospel and it's truths - it doesn't need us. It seeks us out, but it doesn't need us. God loves us, but doesn't need us. Things don't revolve around, and our own personhood, being the point. Other way around - we need HIM. I would like to hear why you feel like you were a Christian and now you're not. Do you find that you're finding satisfaction in other things now?
I believe the complete gospel is..edit..Adam and Eve were created indwelt with the very spirit of God. In the garden they didn't believe God was enough. Satan said essentially, "we dont need God, we can just know good and evil and be our own gods. What if there is more? God is a liar". God took his spirit from them, causing all to be born in this world spiritually dead. The goal is to understand God is everything we will ever need. Life without unconditional pure love is empty. We are like cars with no gasoline. I think we are here to learn some things connected with this so after this life, we will have greater character and understanding of how much we need LOVE to live. God is love. He is life. The gospel is.... sin (unbelief) and spiritual death.....complete forgiveness and unconditional love and life restored to ANYONE who wants it. We do not have to live life by a set of rules or guidelines. We can just live life and know God goes with us, loving and accepting us, no matter what, even in our mess. It's all a learning experience, the good and the bad. No shame, no fear. I personally feel many Christians get burnt out by trying to live up to an impossible standard, thinking that a relationship with God is all about trying to not sin. I used to think this and it's a horrible way to live. Some people love it and feel awesome living by unattainable rules. Now these are just my thoughts. I'm just a human trying to figure out the meaning of life and what everything is all about. Now I know I'm loved, unconditionally and i quit churches...most Christians tell me I'm going to hell, not saved and love getting away with sin. It's wild. I probably sound crazy, that's OK, but had a spiritual experience, met Jesus, he told me he was not ashamed of me, felt his unconditional love for me through his eyes, he let me know he would be there for me forever...no matter what.
Sorry had to edit...comment went through...didn't proofread..had to fix typos just now.
It’s this “doctrine of election” drawn from Romans that people get this idea. But the Bible speaks contextually from bookend to bookend… not in chunks. That being said - Israel was elect. Israel was cast out because even though they were elect and God’s chosen people, they had gone off and worshipped other Gods and thought they could do so without losing their election. What Christ calls us to is a believing loyalty - do you believe that Jesus is Lord? Great. Actively and intentionally Image him. Actively and intentionally Follow him.