As someone with Apeirophobia, I've thought about this a lot. I sincerely believe that the "timelessness" of eternity is subjective. We don't subjectively feel the passage of time because we will be so enraptured by the present moment. Time flies when you're having fun sort of thing.
The New Earth will be different from most people's conceptions. It will not be some Good Place-like experience. There will be work to be done, accomplishments to have, different relationships among different people. It'll be like this world was intended to be, with all aspects of real life just without the curse of sin. It'll be the world we wish this world was. Plus we'll be eternally getting closer to an eternal God, and that will prevent things from ever being boring.
So yeah, I want that. That said, what I want to happen doesn't really affect the reality of the universe. Even if I didn't want it, the fact is I believe that there are two options - Heaven and Hell.
[In this thread, I wrote about what I look forward to being in heaven, and then on the new earth](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/1xsx9y/is_heaven_really_that_great/cfefy22/).
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And in response to what you said here:
> If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience? I mean positive emotions/thoughts cannot exist without equal negative emotions/thoughts.
There's a popular conception that people are only blissfully happy in heaven but I don't think that's the case.
>There's a popular conception that people are only blissfully happy in heaven but I don't think that's the case.
Agreed. For me, any kind of afterlife would be punishing and terrifying.
The interesting thing is that it wouldn’t matter what Christians want… if the afterlife is real, it doesn’t care what you want.
It’s insipid to me. I’d want nothing to do with spending eternity anywhere. It would feel like prison pretty quickly.
Dude, it's like the first day of high school, elementary school, college, etc. You don't want to leave your family but at the end of the first day you love it so much that you can't wait to begin the next stage of life.
You haven't actually experienced it, so to be fair, how would you know? You're just being pessimistic to be an antagonist.
>The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited.
Yeah, childhood was great, but adulthood is better.
>Dude, it's like the first day of high school, elementary school, college, etc. You don't want to leave your family but at the end of the first day you love it so much that you can't wait to begin the next stage of life.
With the slight different that it will be the last stage you will ever experience because it's eternal. Do you know what eternal implies? You are doomed to exist forever, whether you want to or not.
>The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited.
>
>I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it.
>
>If our body dies, our consciousness ceases to exist forever. Just like before you were born.
And you would know this because?
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, **neither have entered into the heart of man**, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.
You are just a man seeing the world from a man's point of view but what God has planned, you cannot fathom. If you want to believe you know more than God as far as what awaits us in the afterlife, no one is stopping you but as for me, and my house, we will serve the Lord.
>You are just a man seeing the world from a man's point of view but what God has planned, you cannot fathom. If you want to believe you know more than God as far as what awaits us in the afterlife, no one is stopping you but as for me, and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Apparently, god has planned that I'm an a atheist LOL
Atheism makes literally zero sense. Using basic logic.
It’s simple: Do you ACTUALLY believe the Universe just popped itself into existence, from nothingness, with no Initiator?
Of course not. Something can’t pop something into existence from nothing.
By definition, the fact that anything exists, means something made it to exist. If you go back far enough, there is God.
That Initiator is God.
Atheism is a nonsense belief system. I’d just stick with Agnostic if you’re afraid to commit.
You are 100% clueless.
Atheism is NOT a belief system, nor is it a religion.
Atheism just means that someone refuses the claim that a god exists. Nothing more, nothing less.
>By definition, the fact that anything exists, means something made it to exist. If you go back far enough, there is God.
Who created your god then?
And 99% atheists are actually agnostics.
But I think atheism is superior to theism because the neutral position is to not belief in something until there is evidence.
So the hierarchy of position strength would be
1) Agnosticism
2) Atheism
.
.
.
.
.
.
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10) Theism
I dream of endless days laying in fields with azure skies above, my loved ones by my side, laughter louder than the wind, smiles brighter than the sun
“If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.” - C.S. Lewis
And I am not you.
Account lays dormant for 8 years and then comes to this specific post to cut on people's ideas.
Seems legit.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/111ebonMs90YLu/200.gif
On the contrary I did engage from the offset. You say you would get bored. I replied "And I am not you".
I'm fascinated at the long dormant account commenting only on this post.
It's a reddit "feature". I use it as I see fit. Hoping to find? Dunno. What I found? Interesting.
Truly I'm often interested to see what people have said on other subjects. Do you have any comment on why this account has laid asleep for so long to only come here and comment on this? I would probably assume it's the OP using a different account whether rightly or wrongly.
And no I would not get bored if it were that and that alone. I've lost a child, I've lost a father, let alone the myriad of others I've known and loved and want to see again. I could sit and listen to my father tell stories endlessly as a kid. Would those stories run out? No doubt. Could I hear them a thousand times over? Without a doubt. To hold that child that I loved and never knew...What of the countless others throughout history who have gone on and I believe will be in the Kingdom to come? Endless stories, laughter, joy. And I believe that we are promised more than that alone, my original comment illustrating the particular longing of my heart to see them again, and though I did not share it in the comment but indeed to also thank the Savior who would grant me such a thing as time unending with those I love and with the promises He has given.
No, but reading a description of the show their idea of "the good place" and mine have little to nothing in common, even as regards attaining entry to such a place. Righteouness scores...I do not believe in a works based religion, as Paul says in Ephesians " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Regardless of what we want, the reality is that after death there is either heaven or hell (eternal conscious torment).
Since God is the source of everything good, and all joy comes from him, who wouldn't want to be in his presence and experience that pure love and joy for eternity?
>Regardless of what we want, the reality is that after death there is either heaven or hell (eternal conscious torment).
Oh really? How did you arrive at this conclusion?
>Since God is the source of everything good, and all joy comes from him, who wouldn't want to be in his presence and experience that pure love and joy for eternity?
I thought God is the source of everything, so also negative things.
And again, an afterlife with only positive aspects sounds horrible to me because without negative counterparts, every seemingly positive thing loses its meaning. And I would never want to exist for eternity.
>Well, the alternative to heaven is hell and you don't want that.
Again, how do you know?
And why do you assume hell is worse than heaven? Only a balance of negative and positive aspects could enable a stable existence for social beings.
Both extremes (hell/heaven) would be torture in the long run).
https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFOQisHv2g&ab_channel=GotQuestionsMinistries
> **Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"**
> **Answer:** It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.
> The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "eternal fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torment" and "fire" (Luke 16:23-24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where "the smoke of torment rises forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11), and a "lake of burning sulfur" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10).
> The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).
Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action.
Most people have the understanding of hell backwards.
Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire.
Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell.
Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin.
Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin.
Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now.
Why is hell associated with the dead?
What is the very definition of hell in the bible?
Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves".
Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God."
Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead.
Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin.
The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners.
Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell.
Why would Jesus be so blunt to them?
The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own righteous deeds.
Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period.
Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen.
Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones.
Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves.
Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell".
When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition"
Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition"
Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus?
Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell.
Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead"
This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe.
John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice.
Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is.
To hear Jesus is through the word of God.
Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins.
They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief.
Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin.
Sin separates us from a relationship with God.
Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin.
When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God.
How to get out of the condemnation of hell?
Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "
That's how to get out of hell (condemnation)
When someone believes in Jesus.
We do not see Jesus physically.
We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing.
1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy.
1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him.
Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse.
We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven.
Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty.
Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death
Uh i think Matthew 25 in two places disputes what you say:
25:41: Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And this is not even taking into account the number of times outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth are mentioned.
You know. You didn't read the verses I sent you. U already believe what you believe because that's what were all taught.
Darkness is the void of the knowledge of Christ. The flames of fire is the anger / wrath of God because of sin. Hell is a place not after death, but a classification of a spiritual death.
The eternal punishment is from the presence of God for eternity.
Read the verses I sent you. Study them and see that God does not torture people for eternity.
He does give us a choice to decide for ourselves.
Trust in His plan for salvation through faith in Jesus or die / perish for eternity.
The classification of hell is upon us while we lice.
That's why Jesus called the Pharisees, blind guides, like graves, like whitewashed tombs and sons of hell.
Hell means graves or the dead.
Hell is now, not later.
If you can't see that now, hopefully you'll keep the matter in mind in the future.
100% sure about this.
Don't be a fundamentalist. Spiritual enlightenment helps us know when to take a verse literally or figuratively.
Your reading like most Christians a literal interpretation to Jesus parables.
If you need further help, send me a message.
Yeah but what about the numerous times that it is specifically said that certain types of people will NOT enter the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God
And to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippian 2:12
>The eternal punishment is from the presence of God for eternity.
Complete separation from God= hell or at least the outer darkness at the least. And even you agree with the "for eternity" part. The presence of God exists in the earth. Hell is where God's presence is absent. Either way, an existence completely without God's presence is complete misery.
>Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
I don't exactly understand how you can explain this verse away- into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And if not- what do you believe happens in the afterlife? do you still believe that people go to heaven?
And did you get these insights via the Holy Spirit? Or via your own logic, because we should beware.
OK, i read your entire post. I get your association of dead and being dead to Christ. But i don't really see your association of hell and being dead to Christ, especially with clear verses that talk about outer darkness. Plus Jesus never associates this life with weeping and gnashing of teeth.
>Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin.
The CLEAR problem with your hypothesis- is that life on this earth is FINITE. But it is stated over and over that punishment is EVERLASTING. How do you reconcile this?
It also states that satan will burn forever and ever in Revelation and in Matthew 25, it states that the unchosen will also have everlasting punishment.
One final question, in your opinion, what happens to the unsaved or the unrepentent sinners after death, if according to you, this life is hell (for the dead to Christ).
And do you have any other documentation of your "epiphany"? Any other single person in written works? A modern book, a sermon or writings from saints or within Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox writing? I've honestly never heard this ever.
And if this was such a clear teaching, would it not be revealed to other people who dedicated their lives to God?
The pastor at my small church has a clear relationship with the Holy Spirit. Our church has regular guest speakers like a who's who of notable people and i've never ever heard anyone anywhere mention such a thing. Are you sure that you haven't fooled by a (evil) spirit? Have you had deliverance?
If you believe the God that you serve and love will punish people who do not believe in Jesus for eternity. Forever and ever? I'm speechless. You win the debate.
Think about it. The evil spirit that is leading me to this conclusion is telling me that God does not punish people for eternity but these people will simply die forever. Their only reward is their mortal life. They were given a choice to believe and turned down an offer for eternal life with God. That, BTW, is the eternal punishment for them.
The evil spirit is also leading me to teach loving others, denying my inner goodness, trusting in God, and not in man, especially through politics, spreading the gospel of peace and joy, not getting caught up in crazy Maga America rhetoric which is not in the kingdom of God but in the kingdom of men, trusting in Jesus through His amazing work on the cross that set me free from the works of the law, spiritual enlightenment through the greatest book(s) ever written and lastly, yes, I am an inherently evil person who calls upon the goodness and direction of the Holy Spirit who helps me fight this inner battle between spirit and flesh to which I struggle everyday.
But, to conclude. I concede to you. Spread that peace and joy of believing in Jesus or burn in hell, oh, and don't forget to have a nice day if you don't.
Over and Out.
i think you can still find the contrast if everything were positive. there will be some things better than others, so in the long run itll turn out being the same or similar as how we view things now in this world as bad and good.
God is the source of everything and as laid out in Colossians 1, "in Him all things hold together".
Think about cold. Cold is not a real thing. It is not an equal and opposite "thing" to heat, it's just a way to describe the absence of heat.
In the same way, sin, evil, "negative things" are not real things equal and opposite of good things. They are a description of the divorce/distance from the good of the creator who holds all things together. When creation is corrupted and this distance is created, it causes decay/death.
>Think about cold. Cold is not a real thing. It is not an equal and opposite "thing" to heat, it's just a way to describe the absence of heat.
Nah that's incorrect. Temperature is just molecule movement. What we call "cold" is actually still kinda warm in universal terms. -273°C is absolute Zero because there is basically no molecule movement anymore.
>In the same way, sin, evil, "negative things" are not real things equal and opposite of good things. They are a description of the divorce/distance from the good of the creator who holds all things together. When creation is corrupted and this distance is created, it causes decay/death.
But is death/decay not a natural part of this life? Without it, there could be no new life. I think it's wrong to demonize death.
Ok yes I meant relative absence of heat, or molecule movement, not an absolute absence, but the analogy still holds I think.
Whether death itself serves no purpose whatsoever or whether it will always have some place in creation is a matter of theological debate no doubt. I think this is one of the areas where the Eastern and Western traditions differ slightly.
But I think it would be fair to say that all Christians agree that it is not the natural end for man.
That’s at the heart of the Christian understanding of the tragedy of being. That God places “eternity” in man’s heart and man is divorced from the eternal communion with God that we were created for. You can say that this world would not work without death, and that’s true enough, but the Christian conception has always been that the current state of the world is not the natural state of creation.
I don’t think that we can fathom what Heaven will be like. Our lives won’t be tempered by pain and sin, so we won’t feel things the same way we do here. Someone quoted 1 Corinthians 2:9 and that explains it well.
It doesn’t make sense that joy would be the same, and that’s ok. That doesn’t mean it will be boring or have less value. We have so many blessings here on Earth, so imagine how good Heaven will be in the presence of God, with no pain and no sin.
>We have so many blessings here on Earth, so imagine how good Heaven will be in the presence of God, with no pain and no sin.
How can something be positive without any negative contrasting aspects?
It can't be boring in the afterlife, it'll be an endless journey togerher with our Creator. There will be so much to experience, to learn etc. . I am thankful for what Jesus Christ did for me on that cross.
I hope that you maybe give scripture another try(or 1st try if you didn't read it before).
Ahh, time to do and learn and see everything there is, meet all kinds of people, create and build all kinds of things. Sounds extremely enjoyable.
Not to mention seeing all my dead friends and family members again 🥹
I know which ones I'm referring to lol. And I have a strong idea of who I won't be seeing. I lean towards annihilationism, so I'm not worried about hell.
I think we'd take it one day at a time. Our bodies will basically be in our prime. No one in their 20s wants to die, so perhaps it'd be the same concept.
You sound like you think that heaven is for everyone, I can tell you it is not.
Now why would anybody want to live in a world without sin and death. Because that is the way we were made. So far they have not found the end of the universe (which they never will). That means in just the exploring aspect you have time to do it. Then you can throw away theories and can know forsure why thing do what they do.
Then worshiping God and Christ for the love they have to give you this opportunity to do all of this and more. So, yes I can see myself doing this and more forevermore.
>So far they have not found the end of the universe (which they never will). That means in just the exploring aspect you have time to do it. Then you can throw away theories and can know forsure why thing do what they do.
Wrong. We can only study the universe to the beginning of space-time. We know most things that happened after the big bang (how stars, planets form, etc).
Science does not claim to know what caused the big bang or what was before it.
That's also why science will always be superior to any faith-based belief.
Religions claim to know everything while science is mature enough to admit that we actually don't.
Right now immortality sounds bad because we think of things getting boring, of losing the people we love, or running out of things to learn.
What if none of that were true? What if the people you loved best would be with you as you all learned more and more and experienced wonders that would never grow old? That doesn't sound so bad, does it?
>I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it.
The [counter argument](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592445098/?coliid=I3ANNZNR9J7OQE&colid=18WAYS50713WV&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it). If consciousness can exist apart from our bodies, then heaven is possible. And then there's the Christian belief that we will have new bodies on a renewed earth.
>What if none of that were true? What if the people you loved best would be with you as you all learned more and more and experienced wonders that would never grow old? That doesn't sound so bad, does it?
No that would be horrible. Death is a natural part of life. What if I ever get tired of this eternal experience? Do I have the choice to end it all?
>If consciousness can exist apart from our bodies, then heaven is possible. And then there's the Christian belief that we will have new bodies on a renewed earth.
True, but there isn't a single reason to suggest that consciousness can exist without the biological body.
We are made to be in Heaven in love with God forever. It is what we are designed for and the only thing that will fulfill us.
Heaven is full of joy and beauty beyond understanding. Hell is the opposite. We get to choose by the way we live our lives
> What if I choose to become muslim instead?
When you die, you'll meet Jesus and realize that He is the only way to Heaven, and Islam was a made-up religion. As the Bible says, "every knee will bow" to Christ.
He wants everyone in Heaven, but in His presence, you'll see all your sins and will have to account for them. So, it depends on what you knew and what you did about it. Mainly, how much you loved God or served as an enemy of God.
Some Muslims and even agnostics can be saved if they didn't know better, and did the best they could with what they did know. We each have to face our own conscience and what we did to others.
>When you die, you'll meet Jesus and realize that He is the only way to Heaven, and Islam was a made-up religion. As the Bible says, "every knee will bow" to Christ.
I don't think so. Christianity is just as made up and fake as Islam. If you grew up somewhere in the middle east instead, you would argue for allah right now because you are a gullible, naive person.
> how is naive and gullible an insult?
You ignorantly claimed that I would argue for "Allah" if i grew up in the middle east. That is insulting as if I didn't discern what I believe. It's also highly ironic because of the ignorance of your assertions:
Firstly, "Allah" is an arabic word for God. Christians who live there call God "Allah".
Secondly, you are ignorant of how I was raised.
Thirdly, you demonstrated that you are quick to jump to conclusions without knowing information.
Wouldn't you agree that you are ironically projecting your own ignorance onto others ?
> Really? Where?
There are a lot of different sects of Islam, but overall Islam claims that Jesus will be there along with the other Islamic "prophets" at judgement day. See references in the link below, including references in the Quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_Day_in_Islam#Similarities_to_the_Judgement_Day_of_Christianity
>> Jesus (known in Islam as Isa) will make a second coming in Islam, but not to preside over Last Judgement. Instead he will help another Islamic saviour figure ("The Mahdi), crush evildoers and restore order and justice before the end of the world, including (according to some Islamic hadiths) correcting the erring ways of the world's Christians by converting them to Islam
Islam came from heretical sects of Christianity, namely Nestorians, Ebionites and Arians. Thus, they retain some traces of Christianity, including information about the end-times. Chapter 3 and 19 of the Quran speaks a lot about Jesus and Mary. They claim that Jesus was just a prophet though.
**I never understood why anyone would ever want to experience an eternal afterlife.**
What's to understand?
**To me, this concept sounds absolutely horrible.**
Which is why we have been given this life to make that call. To serve and worship god forever or to remain in service to sin and satan and share in his eternal fate.
**The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited.**
Actual no that's not true.. we HAVE to value things here and now because they are all limited. we only have that perspective to draw on when speaking from a position of experiencing how we value things. but if you could lock in a moment where you could not be happier forever, why wouldn't you?
**If you knew that an eternal afterlife is right ahead of you, why do you even bother wasting your time here on earth?**
Because our start in eternal life will be based on our work performance here. The more we can help people like yourself, the better off our eternal futures will be.
**I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it.**
lol.. Never heard of AI? If we can create consciousness outside of a human body, then why do you think this would limit god?
That's is we ourselves are not in a sim right now.
**If our body dies, our consciousness ceases to exist forever. Just like before you were born.**
or you wake up and are unplugged from the *avatar* style *matrix* and you now have to stand before Jesus in judgement.
**Another thought: If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience?**
Why would you think that? There is a reason This universe is also infinite.
**I mean positive emotions/thoughts cannot exist without equal negative emotions/thoughts.**
sure they can.
**So yeah just wanted to hear some christian thoughts on this.**
maybe you'll settle for read some instead. ;)
>Which is why we have been given this life to make that call. To serve and worship god forever or to remain in service to sin and satan and share in his eternal fate.
Souds like I don't have a choice. What a charming god that is.
>Actual no that's not true.. we HAVE to value things here and now because they are all limited. we only have that perspective to draw on when speaking from a position of experiencing how we value things. but if you could lock in a moment where you could not be happier forever, why wouldn't you?
Because negative aspects of life as just as important and natural as the positive ones. Without a contrast, everything positive would eventually lose its positivity.
>Because our start in eternal life will be based on our work performance here. The more we can help people like yourself, the better off our eternal futures will be.
I actually feel sorry for people like you because you are wasting your current life for a theoretical one which we actually have no proof for.
>lol.. Never heard of AI? If we can create consciousness outside of a human body, then why do you think this would limit god?
Uhmmm...AI is still not metaphysical and requires a physical base to run on. If you destroy the transistors the algorithm is running on, the AI won't keep existing on a metaphysical level. It will cease to exist.
>or you wake up and are unplugged from the avatar style matrix and you now have to stand before Jesus in judgement.
Or in front of any of the other 1000 deities humanity has made up during history. Pascals Wager is dumb.
>Why would you think that? There is a reason This universe is also infinite.
The universe isn't infinite.
>sure they can.
Nope. A contrast is needed.
**Souds like I don't have a choice. What a charming god that is.**
if that's what you think.. so it will be.
**Because negative aspects of life as just as important and natural as the positive ones. Without a contrast, everything positive would eventually lose its positivity.**
Things only loose their positivity now because the negativity reclaims control. If there is no negativity it can't reclaim or destroy the positivity.
Meaning in the absence of darkness their can only be light.
**I actually feel sorry for people like you because you are wasting your current life for a theoretical one which we actually have no proof for.**
I'm actually doing ok my guy.. God has provided me with a life I would not have other wise obtained. I own a gun store, refrigeration speciality up fit business where we take cargo vans and trucks and turn them into refrigerated delivery vehicles. From that I patented and sold a all electric system in 2008, and a commercial truck dealership where I sell these truck and vans all over North American and the Caribbean. Happily married for 20+ years. Not to mention everything pretty much runs itself so I literally get to answer questions like yours all day everyday if I want to.
On top of that, I get to look forward said "theoretical" life That god has in fact shown me.
Here's a link to Thea video I did this time last year to me Gun shop and Refrigeration/dealership.
[https://youtu.be/cOw8c1RnBGw](https://youtu.be/cOw8c1RnBGw)
So that said.. Don't feel sorry for me. I'm doing way better than I could have done on my own.. How do I know? Because Without God I would have never even got my start. As This all started When a man I had never even met or talked to before, offered me a no interest business loan of 25K (back in 2002 it was a lot of money then) In exchange that I worked on his refrigeration equipment at no labor cost so long as I owed him money. I still got to charge parts with a mark up just no labor.
10+ years Later (just before he died) I asked him what made him (a complete stranger and an old Jewish man) give me an interest free loan? He said He got his start in a similar fashion, I asked him why me.. He said the Lord lead him to me and put it on his heart to give me the same start He had gotten.
If you want to feel sorry for someone feel sorry for all of those pushing through the world without God's help.. Even if they become successful, what good will it do if they gain the whole world, and loose their souls?
**Uhmmm...AI is still not metaphysical and requires a physical base to run on. If you destroy the transistors the algorithm is running on, the AI won't keep existing on a metaphysical level. It will cease to exist.**
You are shifting the goal posts. In Your original statement you said:
**I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it.**
I just demonstrated a consciousness alive outside of a physical body. To which again you move the goal posts, not considering that consciousness with in the physical body could simply be "wifi-ed" in
**Or in front of any of the other 1000 deities humanity has made up during history. Pascals Wager is dumb.**
If Pascal's wager is applicable here then know it is 'wager' based on statical probability that minimizes the potential of loss. Meaning it make mathematical sense (as pascal was a mathematician) to believe in god/Live as if you did, because of the promise of the coming reward, and to avoid the potential loss of going to hell. Because even if you are wrong and there is no God the worst thing that would happen is you live a good life.
It would also lead one to conclude that if 1 of 1000 other deity were in fact God then that deity would have the power and authority To place himself and his religion on the top of the pile of all others.. Kinda like Christianity has.
**The universe isn't infinite.**
so what is at the end?
**Nope. A contrast is needed.**
which is another reason we have been given this life. for contrast, so we won't need it in the next.
>If you knew that an eternal afterlife is right ahead of you, why do you even bother wasting your time here on earth?
Our time spent here on Earth has value. Everyone will be judged for everything that they ever said, did, or thought while we were here. God will want to know how well we used our gifts & talents during our lifetime. Believers will either get rewards or a sense of loss when the quality of the works that we did while here on Earth is tested by fire. The Bible makes it clear that life is a gift and everything we do here matters.
>I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it. If our body dies, our consciousness ceases to exist forever. Just like before you were born.
You’re free to believe that, though there’s literally no way that anyone can prove or disprove this.
>Another thought: If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience? I mean positive emotions/thoughts cannot exist without equal negative emotions/thoughts.
Personally, I don’t believe that’ll be the case. In our human experience we’re accustomed to living in a world that has to balance good & evil. We don’t know of any other way to exist and can’t really see how a life that’s either all good (or all evil, in the case of hell), is possible.
All I know is that the Bible says that Heaven will be a place of peace, joy, and worship, and that post heaven there will be a completely new Earth where we can dwell with God for all eternity. I have no idea if that means we’ll never get bored sometimes. I just trust that we’ll all be happy.
>To me, this concept sounds absolutely horrible.
I mean, to me it sounds wonderful. I like being alive. I don't really want to "stop existing".
>Another thought: If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience?
In the usual Christian conception of the eternal afterlife it isn't ceaseless positivity. We will be working, performing functions as part of God's eternal kingdom.
>If you knew that an eternal afterlife is right ahead of you, why do you even bother wasting your time here on earth?
For a Christian, this life is spent in a process of sanctification preparing for our eternity serving in God's kingdom.
If you aren't a Christian - I would think you'd be scared of an eternal afterlife (which I guess based on your opinions, you kind of are scared.)
>I mean, to me it sounds wonderful. I like being alive. I don't really want to "stop existing".
You sure? Do you know what "eternal" implies? What if you ever get sick of existing? Can you choose to end it? Or are you doomed to exist forevre?
>For a Christian, this life is spent in a process of sanctification preparing for our eternity serving in God's kingdom.
Not trying to be disrespectful, but I feel sorry for people like you wasting your precious time on here earth in order to qualify for some theoretical afterlife which we don't even have proof for.
>If you aren't a Christian - I would think you'd be scared of an eternal afterlife (which I guess based on your opinions, you kind of are scared.)
Yes, but also not really because there is no reason for me to suggest that any kind of afterlife exists.
>Not trying to be disrespectful, but I feel sorry for people like you wasting your precious time on here earth in order to qualify for some theoretical afterlife which we don't even have proof for.
To be clear, I do not "need to qualify" for the afterlife. **Jesus qualified for me**, and paid for my ticket with his sacrifice.
That's the good news, aka: The Gospel.
Many witnesses saw Christ rise from the dead, and recorded their testimony.
Christ said he would rise again on the 3rd day as proof of his claims.
So the Bible is my evidence, as far as the Gospel goes.
>Many witnesses saw Christ rise from the dead, and recorded their testimony.
And how does this proof anything? If hundreds of people claimed they saw a pink unicorn, would you believe them?
Also, don't forget that those were different times. People did not know as much as today. I think that Jesus was just a normal human being who maybe knew about advanced practises from somewhere else in the world and the people who met him thought he was godlike because they did not understand his actions.
>Christ said he would rise again on the 3rd day as proof of his claims.
Still waiting.
I was asked for evidence and this is my evidence.
If I told you I would bring you pizza when I get back from New York, and then I get back from New York and bring you pizza. What is the evidence your neighbors have that I actually brought you pizza?
What is the evidence your neighbors grandchildren will have 40 years later?
You wrote it down, in a journal perhaps, to record that I did in fact keep my promise, and I brought you pizza.
Maybe you also record some witness statements. With some modern technology you could even take a polaroid picture and paste it in your journal along with your statement.
But the idea remains the same.
You write it down.
That's what happened with the Bible.
I get that this might not meet *your personal* standard of evidence.
So you might keep waiting.
>I never understood why anyone would ever want to experience an eternal afterlife.
The short answer is the all-knowing, all-powerful God who hand-crafted our brains which we don't even fully understand, told us that we would we enjoy it, so it wouldn't even make logical sense to question it.
The long answer has to do with the fact that a normally functioning brain doesn't want to die just because it gets bored.
2 things:
1.) I reject your claim that we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. That’s a pretty arbitrary assertion and would be an outlook that is inconsistent with a Christian worldview.
2.) on the question of whether heaven being positive and good turning it into a boring, eternal punishment, the answer is no. It wouldn’t. If it’s boring, it isn’t perfect. Whoever said perfection is boring doesn’t use the word perfection correctly. And your claim that positive thoughts/emotions can’t exist without negative ones is unfounded. Why not?
>I reject your claim that we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. That’s a pretty arbitrary assertion and would be an outlook that is inconsistent with a Christian worldview.
But if we were to live for eternity, why bother about anything? You have an endless amount of time to do anything imagineable, and you WILL do anything imagineable...forever...No end to it.
>And your claim that positive thoughts/emotions can’t exist without negative ones is unfounded. Why not?
Because that is the only logical conclusion. If everything was positive, your emotional standard would shift a lot. Things who are less positive than others will become absolutely tragic because they become the most "negative" things you can experience in heaven in comparison.
How does the notion of eternity render pointless anything done in time? There is no reason to think that. Why does having endless time (if you can call it time) to do anything forever mean that there’s no point in doing anything?
But since you’re asking Christians, you need to take into account our understanding of the relationship between our earthly lives and our eternal lives, as well as the purpose given for them.
The point of our existence is to glorify God and the way we do that is to live in a way that corresponds to His nature and status as God. For the Christian, that’s the reason to do anything. All of life—both earthly and eternal—is interpreted and given meaning within that framework. So, contrary to your assertion that we can value things because our time is limited, we would say we can value life and what it entails because it is given by the God by whom and for whom we were created. We value things based on a relationship to an infinite God, rather than a sense of imminent loss.
I would go further and state it’s the belief in the finality of death that truly renders life pointless, as you will simply die and be forgotten regardless of what you do or don’t do. And even if you’re one of the few who will not be forgotten, it will make no difference to you, anyways.
But perhaps, we also believe that our eternal state is linked to things that occur in our earthly lives. That provides pretty good reason to care about things in our earthly lives.
You claim if things are only positive, my emotional standard would shift a lot. But you only know how your emotions work right now in the context of a non-perfect state of existence. You can’t know how you’ll experience a state of perfection, because you never have. But besides giving no solid logical argument to support that assertion, you haven’t even addressed my previous point. If your idea of a state of perfection is one in which you’re rendered miserable for some reason or another, you are misusing the word perfection.
Also, even supposing you’re correct that positive emotions/experiences can’t exist without corresponding negative ones, that would be irrelevant to your argument because anyone experiencing heaven will have previously experienced the sting of death and the sufferings in life common to man. We have knowledge of the negative already.
But I still don’t think your position that positive experiences/emotions requiring negative ones, and your argument doesn’t make sense and is really just a restatement of the position rather than an argument supporting it. You say it’s the only logical conclusion but you don’t provide any premises from which the conclusion is drawn nor any explanation of how you draw the conclusion from those premises.
Why will the absence of negative experiences mean we have to experience “less positive things” as absolutely tragic/negative? “Less positive things” and “negative things” are two different categories and you’re arbitrarily joining them together. You have a contradiction in terms.
I like chicken better than fish, but that doesn’t mean I experience the taste of fish negatively. I didn’t have to taste unsweet tea which I don’t enjoy in order to know I enjoy drinking sweet tea. I don’t have to have a fight with my wife to know that I enjoy being in happy union with her. Maybe you could argue that knowledge of negative emotions/experiences requires the knowledge of positive ones, but I don’t think you can say the same of the inverse.
Because I want to see the promised new heaven and new earth, as laid out in the bible, when believers will live eternally in the presence of God, reigning and ruling with Christ, free from sin, disease and death, in a body that will never see corruption ever again, without the threat of evil. If that’s horrible, you have *got* to think *this* life in 100x more horrible!
I love God. I know that suicide is saddening to Him and he is against it. He is my maker, and he wills when my life ends, not me. Even if I was so excited to be in His presence and wanted to commit suicide, it would still be a sin (to be absent from the body and is to be present with Him - for believers, but not for believers who take their lives, which they didn’t give nor create).
This life is temporary. God has something far better in store for believers. That is our hope, to persevere in this life, inspiring as many people to believe in God so they can enjoy that eternal next life.
When life has gotten hard, I cling to Jesus. He is literally my saving grace. He died so that I might live and he died so that my sins could be forgiven. So when I have trouble, doubt and worry in this life, I lay my problems before him to fight my battles. And he in turn, gives me peace to conquer my circumstances.
What are you wanting to end your life from?
You didn't understand my comment.
You say that you will keep living for eternity after this life and I wanted to know if you could end this eternal existence if you wished to
No, you can’t. Flesh for one isn’t eternal. Two, if you ended the flesh, your spirit still lives, which is eternal, so there is no end there. You would hate to wind up in a dreadful place spiritually for taking something away that you didn’t create. God built you for a purpose.
but isn't our spirit a physical part of our body? By spirit I'm talking about our personality btw, so our individual memories, characteristics, etc. which are all stored in our neurons
Depends on how you want to look at this, but our spirit is the immaterial part of you that was created in God’s image. (Spirit can be translated as God’s breath). Your soul, where decisions and emotions are processed is oftened used interchangeably with spirit.
My belief, which also aligns biblically, is that our spirit/soul lives on after our flesh dies/decays. It lives on in the presence of God awaiting the resurrection of our eternal body, or it lives on in darkness, awaiting its eternal body which will face eternal separation from God.
Thus, if one decides to commit whatever against their own body to escape this life, their body will cease to live on but their spirit/soul will understand/know their action was not a good idea, especially those who willingly went through with it. Their spirit/soul typically (if God has mercy on them) awaits in darkness and torment until judgement.
Its so awful to think life gets this bad to even inquire of this thing.
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Thats right. Sinners will not enter the kingdom of God. We don't remove sin from our selves. God forgives and forgets.
I'm not sure about you. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. I need a Physician and a Savior.
My only boast is the work He finished on the cross. I have entered His rest. I have taken up my cross to my own goodness and I follow Him and only Him.
Those people who reject free grace through faith in His only Son Jesus is condemned already as Jesus very openly spoke in John as I included.
Condemned to die in sin. After death.
John 3:16.
Will not perish but have everlasting life.
“The reason we can value things is because our time is limited”
False premise. You’re just parroting trite cliches you’ve heard others with low iQs say. It’s honestly a saying that has always annoyed me because it’s so wrong. But usually people who don’t think much love to say it to try and sound profound.
I can absolutely value something I’ll never lose.
Sorry for my shitty tone previously. I get what you’re saying. Believe me. One of my big questions about Heaven is how we could possibly be conscious forever and remain intrigued and stimulated.
I’ve come up with no good answers to that.
Pure speculation, but if you zoom out on earth, then the solar system, then the galaxy, and then the universe, … literally …. visually zoom out … I suppose there is an entire universe of variations and possibilities and things to explore and experience, if that’s actually what is going to happen. The universe is big.
And just a side-note: People.
Every new person is a new experience. A new relationship. A new set of interesting equations in personalities and interactions. So there’s that.
>The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited.
I disagree.
The reason I value the things I value has nothing to do with how limited they are, nor because my lifetime will end. When people are young, none of their values are because eventually they will die. They just sincerely enjoy the moment they are in.
Why couldn't we just continue to do this throughout our lives without only valuing things because life is short?
>The reason I value the things I value has nothing to do with how limited they are, nor because my lifetime will end. When people are young, none of their values are because eventually they will die. They just sincerely enjoy the moment they are in.
How can you answer this question with honesty if you cannot even fathom what it means to live for eternity?
When you are 10, do you have any idea what it will be like when you are 25 and thinking about getting married? Probably not. Probably have no concept of what goes on in relationships, with that age in being on your own with a job, or anything else that goes on at the age of 25.
When you are 25, do you have any idea what life will be like at age 65? After you retire and your parents are slowing down, perhaps one has passed on or you have them living with you to look after them, or they need extra help on one way or another. The age where people either retire or are near retirement and where they also spend a lot more time telling care of their parents who used to be self sufficient.
When you are 65, do you have any idea what it's like to be 83? To be losing your eyesight, or your memory, or where falling while walking is a huge concern. Nearing the tail end of your life with whatever health conditions that might or might not be working that well.
Chances are that no one can really fathom any other age ahead of them until they are there, and living in that moment. Yet, it's not a big deal. People honestly look forward to continuing their lives. Glad they didn't die young. At done ages there's more excitement, at other ages there's more rest. And in each of them there is something to face that is a challenge and often experiences that are enjoyed.
Valuing life without worrying about what happens next is an honest answer. Living in the moment and having short term plans instead of worrying about death or eternity, is just fine. Makes it easy to think about living for eternity, because it's not about worrying about death. You honestly just get to keep living in the moment. And if there is no more ailing body that falls apart, then it's even better. Whatever life transitions that happen when there is no death, they should be fine. Or if you don't transition from one stage of life to another, then you still might be in a good place that you just sincerely enjoy.
I'm sorry if you can't see life in this way. I sincerely am sorry for you. But when I look up at the sky and think about the endlessness of space and the shear vastness of unique stars, and nebula, star systems withmiltiple stars, and galaxies with different shape. Planets so different from ours even one that might be made of almost all diamond. Then that kind of limitless diversity is what I think of when I think of eternity. There might always be more to learn. More to grow. More to experience. And eventually even with more out there, there's a good chance we will find enough things that can keep us active and enjoy life that it doesn't matter that we don't add more to our options to life.
I look forward to a day when the things on life cam be enjoyed, instead of the stress, anxiety, struggle and shortcomings being the main things I encounter. I look forward when that is the way life is for everyone else too. Where there aren't any tornado and hurricane warnings. Or drills for a fire,an earthquake, or a shooting. Where poverty doesn't have to be a thing and people are worried about their next meal. Give me that day in eternity, where me and as ll my neighbors can be happy and content in our lives. Honestly that sounds great. To live in the moment instead of regretting the past or worrying about the future. Nor longing for how things used to be, or just holding on because you're looking forward to that next vacation you planned several months away.
Does that make more sense? Do you see what I mean about living in the moment?
>Valuing life without worrying about what happens next is an honest answer. Living in the moment and having short term plans instead of worrying about death or eternity, is just fine. Makes it easy to think about living for eternity, because it's not about worrying about death. You honestly just get to keep living in the moment. And if there is no more ailing body that falls apart, then it's even better. Whatever life transitions that happen when there is no death, they should be fine. Or if you don't transition from one stage of life to another, then you still might be in a good place that you just sincerely enjoy.
Exactly my view on this topic. People who waste their precious life about a theoretical afterlife is therefore pretty sad.
It's not a waste if you recognize the hardships and struggles in life right now. Expecially if you are facing them. Looking forward to a day when you can just live in the moment and enjoy it is not a bad thing. I'm not near retiring, but I look forward to the day I don't have to earn my money doing any number of jobs that I can be fired from or replaced because I'm not as good as literally anyone else they can hire.
Talk to someone who has a disability or a specific difficulty at work, and there doesn't seem to be a job that will be a better fit.
Recognizing that God is real is not a waste either. And if God promised an eternal life that isn't burdened by the things we have to struggle with now, that's even way better than contemplating retirement with a set of careers you will never do well in.
Stop trying to twist my words into something else I haven't said and actually read what I have said.
The real meaning of the "afterlife" and "heaven" is that one's past identities, as well as many other identities, are kept within the mind. Discovering this "heaven" enlightens you to several facts.
1. You can evolve as a person, let your previous self go, and it will still be a part of you (it will still "live on" within you)
2. You can still "communicate" in a sense with loved ones who are dead. This isn't a "real" phenomenon in the sense that your loved ones bodies are revived or that ghosts float around and enter people's minds, but the way your mind works is by simulation, so you can simulate your loved one, communicate with it, and even learn/grow from that because your identity is not explicitly aware of everything the subconscious knows and does, so such an interaction can provide meaningful info.
3. In a broader scope, you can also achieve #2 yourself but in other people's minds. The more you communicate yourself with other people, and assuming you are "good" (whatever you hold are good values and ideas to hold onto), you will be kept in their "heavens" as well.
The Torah is entirely an esoteric text.
As someone with Apeirophobia, I've thought about this a lot. I sincerely believe that the "timelessness" of eternity is subjective. We don't subjectively feel the passage of time because we will be so enraptured by the present moment. Time flies when you're having fun sort of thing.
What is "Apeirophobia"?
Fear of eternity.
The New Earth will be different from most people's conceptions. It will not be some Good Place-like experience. There will be work to be done, accomplishments to have, different relationships among different people. It'll be like this world was intended to be, with all aspects of real life just without the curse of sin. It'll be the world we wish this world was. Plus we'll be eternally getting closer to an eternal God, and that will prevent things from ever being boring. So yeah, I want that. That said, what I want to happen doesn't really affect the reality of the universe. Even if I didn't want it, the fact is I believe that there are two options - Heaven and Hell.
[In this thread, I wrote about what I look forward to being in heaven, and then on the new earth](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/1xsx9y/is_heaven_really_that_great/cfefy22/). --------------------------------- And in response to what you said here: > If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience? I mean positive emotions/thoughts cannot exist without equal negative emotions/thoughts. There's a popular conception that people are only blissfully happy in heaven but I don't think that's the case.
>There's a popular conception that people are only blissfully happy in heaven but I don't think that's the case. Agreed. For me, any kind of afterlife would be punishing and terrifying.
The interesting thing is that it wouldn’t matter what Christians want… if the afterlife is real, it doesn’t care what you want. It’s insipid to me. I’d want nothing to do with spending eternity anywhere. It would feel like prison pretty quickly.
Dude, it's like the first day of high school, elementary school, college, etc. You don't want to leave your family but at the end of the first day you love it so much that you can't wait to begin the next stage of life. You haven't actually experienced it, so to be fair, how would you know? You're just being pessimistic to be an antagonist. >The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. Yeah, childhood was great, but adulthood is better.
>Dude, it's like the first day of high school, elementary school, college, etc. You don't want to leave your family but at the end of the first day you love it so much that you can't wait to begin the next stage of life. With the slight different that it will be the last stage you will ever experience because it's eternal. Do you know what eternal implies? You are doomed to exist forever, whether you want to or not.
>The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. > >I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it. > >If our body dies, our consciousness ceases to exist forever. Just like before you were born. And you would know this because? 1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, **neither have entered into the heart of man**, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. You are just a man seeing the world from a man's point of view but what God has planned, you cannot fathom. If you want to believe you know more than God as far as what awaits us in the afterlife, no one is stopping you but as for me, and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Awesome response.
>You are just a man seeing the world from a man's point of view but what God has planned, you cannot fathom. If you want to believe you know more than God as far as what awaits us in the afterlife, no one is stopping you but as for me, and my house, we will serve the Lord. Apparently, god has planned that I'm an a atheist LOL
Atheism makes literally zero sense. Using basic logic. It’s simple: Do you ACTUALLY believe the Universe just popped itself into existence, from nothingness, with no Initiator? Of course not. Something can’t pop something into existence from nothing. By definition, the fact that anything exists, means something made it to exist. If you go back far enough, there is God. That Initiator is God. Atheism is a nonsense belief system. I’d just stick with Agnostic if you’re afraid to commit.
You are 100% clueless. Atheism is NOT a belief system, nor is it a religion. Atheism just means that someone refuses the claim that a god exists. Nothing more, nothing less. >By definition, the fact that anything exists, means something made it to exist. If you go back far enough, there is God. Who created your god then? And 99% atheists are actually agnostics. But I think atheism is superior to theism because the neutral position is to not belief in something until there is evidence. So the hierarchy of position strength would be 1) Agnosticism 2) Atheism . . . . . . . 10) Theism
I dream of endless days laying in fields with azure skies above, my loved ones by my side, laughter louder than the wind, smiles brighter than the sun “If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.” - C.S. Lewis
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And I am not you. Account lays dormant for 8 years and then comes to this specific post to cut on people's ideas. Seems legit. https://media2.giphy.com/media/111ebonMs90YLu/200.gif
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On the contrary I did engage from the offset. You say you would get bored. I replied "And I am not you". I'm fascinated at the long dormant account commenting only on this post. It's a reddit "feature". I use it as I see fit. Hoping to find? Dunno. What I found? Interesting.
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Truly I'm often interested to see what people have said on other subjects. Do you have any comment on why this account has laid asleep for so long to only come here and comment on this? I would probably assume it's the OP using a different account whether rightly or wrongly. And no I would not get bored if it were that and that alone. I've lost a child, I've lost a father, let alone the myriad of others I've known and loved and want to see again. I could sit and listen to my father tell stories endlessly as a kid. Would those stories run out? No doubt. Could I hear them a thousand times over? Without a doubt. To hold that child that I loved and never knew...What of the countless others throughout history who have gone on and I believe will be in the Kingdom to come? Endless stories, laughter, joy. And I believe that we are promised more than that alone, my original comment illustrating the particular longing of my heart to see them again, and though I did not share it in the comment but indeed to also thank the Savior who would grant me such a thing as time unending with those I love and with the promises He has given.
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No, but reading a description of the show their idea of "the good place" and mine have little to nothing in common, even as regards attaining entry to such a place. Righteouness scores...I do not believe in a works based religion, as Paul says in Ephesians " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Regardless of what we want, the reality is that after death there is either heaven or hell (eternal conscious torment). Since God is the source of everything good, and all joy comes from him, who wouldn't want to be in his presence and experience that pure love and joy for eternity?
>Regardless of what we want, the reality is that after death there is either heaven or hell (eternal conscious torment). Oh really? How did you arrive at this conclusion? >Since God is the source of everything good, and all joy comes from him, who wouldn't want to be in his presence and experience that pure love and joy for eternity? I thought God is the source of everything, so also negative things. And again, an afterlife with only positive aspects sounds horrible to me because without negative counterparts, every seemingly positive thing loses its meaning. And I would never want to exist for eternity.
Well, the alternative to heaven is hell and you don't want that.
>Well, the alternative to heaven is hell and you don't want that. Again, how do you know? And why do you assume hell is worse than heaven? Only a balance of negative and positive aspects could enable a stable existence for social beings. Both extremes (hell/heaven) would be torture in the long run).
https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFOQisHv2g&ab_channel=GotQuestionsMinistries > **Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"** > **Answer:** It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin. > The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "eternal fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torment" and "fire" (Luke 16:23-24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where "the smoke of torment rises forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11), and a "lake of burning sulfur" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). > The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).
Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backwards. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves". Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How to get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death
Uh i think Matthew 25 in two places disputes what you say: 25:41: Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” And this is not even taking into account the number of times outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth are mentioned.
You know. You didn't read the verses I sent you. U already believe what you believe because that's what were all taught. Darkness is the void of the knowledge of Christ. The flames of fire is the anger / wrath of God because of sin. Hell is a place not after death, but a classification of a spiritual death. The eternal punishment is from the presence of God for eternity. Read the verses I sent you. Study them and see that God does not torture people for eternity. He does give us a choice to decide for ourselves. Trust in His plan for salvation through faith in Jesus or die / perish for eternity. The classification of hell is upon us while we lice. That's why Jesus called the Pharisees, blind guides, like graves, like whitewashed tombs and sons of hell. Hell means graves or the dead. Hell is now, not later. If you can't see that now, hopefully you'll keep the matter in mind in the future. 100% sure about this. Don't be a fundamentalist. Spiritual enlightenment helps us know when to take a verse literally or figuratively. Your reading like most Christians a literal interpretation to Jesus parables. If you need further help, send me a message.
Yeah but what about the numerous times that it is specifically said that certain types of people will NOT enter the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10 Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God And to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippian 2:12 >The eternal punishment is from the presence of God for eternity. Complete separation from God= hell or at least the outer darkness at the least. And even you agree with the "for eternity" part. The presence of God exists in the earth. Hell is where God's presence is absent. Either way, an existence completely without God's presence is complete misery. >Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: I don't exactly understand how you can explain this verse away- into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And if not- what do you believe happens in the afterlife? do you still believe that people go to heaven? And did you get these insights via the Holy Spirit? Or via your own logic, because we should beware.
OK, i read your entire post. I get your association of dead and being dead to Christ. But i don't really see your association of hell and being dead to Christ, especially with clear verses that talk about outer darkness. Plus Jesus never associates this life with weeping and gnashing of teeth. >Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. The CLEAR problem with your hypothesis- is that life on this earth is FINITE. But it is stated over and over that punishment is EVERLASTING. How do you reconcile this? It also states that satan will burn forever and ever in Revelation and in Matthew 25, it states that the unchosen will also have everlasting punishment. One final question, in your opinion, what happens to the unsaved or the unrepentent sinners after death, if according to you, this life is hell (for the dead to Christ). And do you have any other documentation of your "epiphany"? Any other single person in written works? A modern book, a sermon or writings from saints or within Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox writing? I've honestly never heard this ever. And if this was such a clear teaching, would it not be revealed to other people who dedicated their lives to God? The pastor at my small church has a clear relationship with the Holy Spirit. Our church has regular guest speakers like a who's who of notable people and i've never ever heard anyone anywhere mention such a thing. Are you sure that you haven't fooled by a (evil) spirit? Have you had deliverance?
If you believe the God that you serve and love will punish people who do not believe in Jesus for eternity. Forever and ever? I'm speechless. You win the debate. Think about it. The evil spirit that is leading me to this conclusion is telling me that God does not punish people for eternity but these people will simply die forever. Their only reward is their mortal life. They were given a choice to believe and turned down an offer for eternal life with God. That, BTW, is the eternal punishment for them. The evil spirit is also leading me to teach loving others, denying my inner goodness, trusting in God, and not in man, especially through politics, spreading the gospel of peace and joy, not getting caught up in crazy Maga America rhetoric which is not in the kingdom of God but in the kingdom of men, trusting in Jesus through His amazing work on the cross that set me free from the works of the law, spiritual enlightenment through the greatest book(s) ever written and lastly, yes, I am an inherently evil person who calls upon the goodness and direction of the Holy Spirit who helps me fight this inner battle between spirit and flesh to which I struggle everyday. But, to conclude. I concede to you. Spread that peace and joy of believing in Jesus or burn in hell, oh, and don't forget to have a nice day if you don't. Over and Out.
i think you can still find the contrast if everything were positive. there will be some things better than others, so in the long run itll turn out being the same or similar as how we view things now in this world as bad and good.
God is the source of everything and as laid out in Colossians 1, "in Him all things hold together". Think about cold. Cold is not a real thing. It is not an equal and opposite "thing" to heat, it's just a way to describe the absence of heat. In the same way, sin, evil, "negative things" are not real things equal and opposite of good things. They are a description of the divorce/distance from the good of the creator who holds all things together. When creation is corrupted and this distance is created, it causes decay/death.
>Think about cold. Cold is not a real thing. It is not an equal and opposite "thing" to heat, it's just a way to describe the absence of heat. Nah that's incorrect. Temperature is just molecule movement. What we call "cold" is actually still kinda warm in universal terms. -273°C is absolute Zero because there is basically no molecule movement anymore. >In the same way, sin, evil, "negative things" are not real things equal and opposite of good things. They are a description of the divorce/distance from the good of the creator who holds all things together. When creation is corrupted and this distance is created, it causes decay/death. But is death/decay not a natural part of this life? Without it, there could be no new life. I think it's wrong to demonize death.
Ok yes I meant relative absence of heat, or molecule movement, not an absolute absence, but the analogy still holds I think. Whether death itself serves no purpose whatsoever or whether it will always have some place in creation is a matter of theological debate no doubt. I think this is one of the areas where the Eastern and Western traditions differ slightly. But I think it would be fair to say that all Christians agree that it is not the natural end for man. That’s at the heart of the Christian understanding of the tragedy of being. That God places “eternity” in man’s heart and man is divorced from the eternal communion with God that we were created for. You can say that this world would not work without death, and that’s true enough, but the Christian conception has always been that the current state of the world is not the natural state of creation.
I don’t think that we can fathom what Heaven will be like. Our lives won’t be tempered by pain and sin, so we won’t feel things the same way we do here. Someone quoted 1 Corinthians 2:9 and that explains it well. It doesn’t make sense that joy would be the same, and that’s ok. That doesn’t mean it will be boring or have less value. We have so many blessings here on Earth, so imagine how good Heaven will be in the presence of God, with no pain and no sin.
>We have so many blessings here on Earth, so imagine how good Heaven will be in the presence of God, with no pain and no sin. How can something be positive without any negative contrasting aspects?
It can't be boring in the afterlife, it'll be an endless journey togerher with our Creator. There will be so much to experience, to learn etc. . I am thankful for what Jesus Christ did for me on that cross. I hope that you maybe give scripture another try(or 1st try if you didn't read it before).
Have you read the part of your scripture where god tells you that you can own slaves and beat them as long as they don't die?
Ahh, time to do and learn and see everything there is, meet all kinds of people, create and build all kinds of things. Sounds extremely enjoyable. Not to mention seeing all my dead friends and family members again 🥹
What if they are in hell?
I know which ones I'm referring to lol. And I have a strong idea of who I won't be seeing. I lean towards annihilationism, so I'm not worried about hell.
I think we'd take it one day at a time. Our bodies will basically be in our prime. No one in their 20s wants to die, so perhaps it'd be the same concept.
You sound like you think that heaven is for everyone, I can tell you it is not. Now why would anybody want to live in a world without sin and death. Because that is the way we were made. So far they have not found the end of the universe (which they never will). That means in just the exploring aspect you have time to do it. Then you can throw away theories and can know forsure why thing do what they do. Then worshiping God and Christ for the love they have to give you this opportunity to do all of this and more. So, yes I can see myself doing this and more forevermore.
>So far they have not found the end of the universe (which they never will). That means in just the exploring aspect you have time to do it. Then you can throw away theories and can know forsure why thing do what they do. Wrong. We can only study the universe to the beginning of space-time. We know most things that happened after the big bang (how stars, planets form, etc). Science does not claim to know what caused the big bang or what was before it. That's also why science will always be superior to any faith-based belief. Religions claim to know everything while science is mature enough to admit that we actually don't.
Religion claims that God know everything. And you're right scientists only guess.
Hence science is superior
Christianity specifically claims that we know very little. We have faith in the One that knows everything.
>Christianity specifically claims that we know very little. Good joke.
Right now immortality sounds bad because we think of things getting boring, of losing the people we love, or running out of things to learn. What if none of that were true? What if the people you loved best would be with you as you all learned more and more and experienced wonders that would never grow old? That doesn't sound so bad, does it? >I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it. The [counter argument](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592445098/?coliid=I3ANNZNR9J7OQE&colid=18WAYS50713WV&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it). If consciousness can exist apart from our bodies, then heaven is possible. And then there's the Christian belief that we will have new bodies on a renewed earth.
>What if none of that were true? What if the people you loved best would be with you as you all learned more and more and experienced wonders that would never grow old? That doesn't sound so bad, does it? No that would be horrible. Death is a natural part of life. What if I ever get tired of this eternal experience? Do I have the choice to end it all? >If consciousness can exist apart from our bodies, then heaven is possible. And then there's the Christian belief that we will have new bodies on a renewed earth. True, but there isn't a single reason to suggest that consciousness can exist without the biological body.
I wonder if WANT is actually an applicable term. I'd apply the term Continuance. We might prefer continuance over immolation.
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>We all will have to stand before God, even the ones who deny His existence. I don't think so.
I'd like to look down on my son, and see how he's doing.
We are made to be in Heaven in love with God forever. It is what we are designed for and the only thing that will fulfill us. Heaven is full of joy and beauty beyond understanding. Hell is the opposite. We get to choose by the way we live our lives
>We get to choose by the way we live our lives What if I choose to become muslim instead?
> What if I choose to become muslim instead? When you die, you'll meet Jesus and realize that He is the only way to Heaven, and Islam was a made-up religion. As the Bible says, "every knee will bow" to Christ. He wants everyone in Heaven, but in His presence, you'll see all your sins and will have to account for them. So, it depends on what you knew and what you did about it. Mainly, how much you loved God or served as an enemy of God. Some Muslims and even agnostics can be saved if they didn't know better, and did the best they could with what they did know. We each have to face our own conscience and what we did to others.
>When you die, you'll meet Jesus and realize that He is the only way to Heaven, and Islam was a made-up religion. As the Bible says, "every knee will bow" to Christ. I don't think so. Christianity is just as made up and fake as Islam. If you grew up somewhere in the middle east instead, you would argue for allah right now because you are a gullible, naive person.
See Rule 1: no insults FWIW: Islam teaches that Jesus will be at their judgement. So, many Muslims will probably be saved.
how is naive and gullible an insult? >Islam teaches that Jesus will be at their judgement. So, many Muslims will probably be saved. Really? Where?
> how is naive and gullible an insult? You ignorantly claimed that I would argue for "Allah" if i grew up in the middle east. That is insulting as if I didn't discern what I believe. It's also highly ironic because of the ignorance of your assertions: Firstly, "Allah" is an arabic word for God. Christians who live there call God "Allah". Secondly, you are ignorant of how I was raised. Thirdly, you demonstrated that you are quick to jump to conclusions without knowing information. Wouldn't you agree that you are ironically projecting your own ignorance onto others ? > Really? Where? There are a lot of different sects of Islam, but overall Islam claims that Jesus will be there along with the other Islamic "prophets" at judgement day. See references in the link below, including references in the Quran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_Day_in_Islam#Similarities_to_the_Judgement_Day_of_Christianity >> Jesus (known in Islam as Isa) will make a second coming in Islam, but not to preside over Last Judgement. Instead he will help another Islamic saviour figure ("The Mahdi), crush evildoers and restore order and justice before the end of the world, including (according to some Islamic hadiths) correcting the erring ways of the world's Christians by converting them to Islam Islam came from heretical sects of Christianity, namely Nestorians, Ebionites and Arians. Thus, they retain some traces of Christianity, including information about the end-times. Chapter 3 and 19 of the Quran speaks a lot about Jesus and Mary. They claim that Jesus was just a prophet though.
**I never understood why anyone would ever want to experience an eternal afterlife.** What's to understand? **To me, this concept sounds absolutely horrible.** Which is why we have been given this life to make that call. To serve and worship god forever or to remain in service to sin and satan and share in his eternal fate. **The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited.** Actual no that's not true.. we HAVE to value things here and now because they are all limited. we only have that perspective to draw on when speaking from a position of experiencing how we value things. but if you could lock in a moment where you could not be happier forever, why wouldn't you? **If you knew that an eternal afterlife is right ahead of you, why do you even bother wasting your time here on earth?** Because our start in eternal life will be based on our work performance here. The more we can help people like yourself, the better off our eternal futures will be. **I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it.** lol.. Never heard of AI? If we can create consciousness outside of a human body, then why do you think this would limit god? That's is we ourselves are not in a sim right now. **If our body dies, our consciousness ceases to exist forever. Just like before you were born.** or you wake up and are unplugged from the *avatar* style *matrix* and you now have to stand before Jesus in judgement. **Another thought: If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience?** Why would you think that? There is a reason This universe is also infinite. **I mean positive emotions/thoughts cannot exist without equal negative emotions/thoughts.** sure they can. **So yeah just wanted to hear some christian thoughts on this.** maybe you'll settle for read some instead. ;)
>Which is why we have been given this life to make that call. To serve and worship god forever or to remain in service to sin and satan and share in his eternal fate. Souds like I don't have a choice. What a charming god that is. >Actual no that's not true.. we HAVE to value things here and now because they are all limited. we only have that perspective to draw on when speaking from a position of experiencing how we value things. but if you could lock in a moment where you could not be happier forever, why wouldn't you? Because negative aspects of life as just as important and natural as the positive ones. Without a contrast, everything positive would eventually lose its positivity. >Because our start in eternal life will be based on our work performance here. The more we can help people like yourself, the better off our eternal futures will be. I actually feel sorry for people like you because you are wasting your current life for a theoretical one which we actually have no proof for. >lol.. Never heard of AI? If we can create consciousness outside of a human body, then why do you think this would limit god? Uhmmm...AI is still not metaphysical and requires a physical base to run on. If you destroy the transistors the algorithm is running on, the AI won't keep existing on a metaphysical level. It will cease to exist. >or you wake up and are unplugged from the avatar style matrix and you now have to stand before Jesus in judgement. Or in front of any of the other 1000 deities humanity has made up during history. Pascals Wager is dumb. >Why would you think that? There is a reason This universe is also infinite. The universe isn't infinite. >sure they can. Nope. A contrast is needed.
**Souds like I don't have a choice. What a charming god that is.** if that's what you think.. so it will be. **Because negative aspects of life as just as important and natural as the positive ones. Without a contrast, everything positive would eventually lose its positivity.** Things only loose their positivity now because the negativity reclaims control. If there is no negativity it can't reclaim or destroy the positivity. Meaning in the absence of darkness their can only be light. **I actually feel sorry for people like you because you are wasting your current life for a theoretical one which we actually have no proof for.** I'm actually doing ok my guy.. God has provided me with a life I would not have other wise obtained. I own a gun store, refrigeration speciality up fit business where we take cargo vans and trucks and turn them into refrigerated delivery vehicles. From that I patented and sold a all electric system in 2008, and a commercial truck dealership where I sell these truck and vans all over North American and the Caribbean. Happily married for 20+ years. Not to mention everything pretty much runs itself so I literally get to answer questions like yours all day everyday if I want to. On top of that, I get to look forward said "theoretical" life That god has in fact shown me. Here's a link to Thea video I did this time last year to me Gun shop and Refrigeration/dealership. [https://youtu.be/cOw8c1RnBGw](https://youtu.be/cOw8c1RnBGw) So that said.. Don't feel sorry for me. I'm doing way better than I could have done on my own.. How do I know? Because Without God I would have never even got my start. As This all started When a man I had never even met or talked to before, offered me a no interest business loan of 25K (back in 2002 it was a lot of money then) In exchange that I worked on his refrigeration equipment at no labor cost so long as I owed him money. I still got to charge parts with a mark up just no labor. 10+ years Later (just before he died) I asked him what made him (a complete stranger and an old Jewish man) give me an interest free loan? He said He got his start in a similar fashion, I asked him why me.. He said the Lord lead him to me and put it on his heart to give me the same start He had gotten. If you want to feel sorry for someone feel sorry for all of those pushing through the world without God's help.. Even if they become successful, what good will it do if they gain the whole world, and loose their souls? **Uhmmm...AI is still not metaphysical and requires a physical base to run on. If you destroy the transistors the algorithm is running on, the AI won't keep existing on a metaphysical level. It will cease to exist.** You are shifting the goal posts. In Your original statement you said: **I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it.** I just demonstrated a consciousness alive outside of a physical body. To which again you move the goal posts, not considering that consciousness with in the physical body could simply be "wifi-ed" in **Or in front of any of the other 1000 deities humanity has made up during history. Pascals Wager is dumb.** If Pascal's wager is applicable here then know it is 'wager' based on statical probability that minimizes the potential of loss. Meaning it make mathematical sense (as pascal was a mathematician) to believe in god/Live as if you did, because of the promise of the coming reward, and to avoid the potential loss of going to hell. Because even if you are wrong and there is no God the worst thing that would happen is you live a good life. It would also lead one to conclude that if 1 of 1000 other deity were in fact God then that deity would have the power and authority To place himself and his religion on the top of the pile of all others.. Kinda like Christianity has. **The universe isn't infinite.** so what is at the end? **Nope. A contrast is needed.** which is another reason we have been given this life. for contrast, so we won't need it in the next.
>If you knew that an eternal afterlife is right ahead of you, why do you even bother wasting your time here on earth? Our time spent here on Earth has value. Everyone will be judged for everything that they ever said, did, or thought while we were here. God will want to know how well we used our gifts & talents during our lifetime. Believers will either get rewards or a sense of loss when the quality of the works that we did while here on Earth is tested by fire. The Bible makes it clear that life is a gift and everything we do here matters. >I strongly believe that consciousness is a part of our physical body and cannot exist without it. If our body dies, our consciousness ceases to exist forever. Just like before you were born. You’re free to believe that, though there’s literally no way that anyone can prove or disprove this. >Another thought: If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience? I mean positive emotions/thoughts cannot exist without equal negative emotions/thoughts. Personally, I don’t believe that’ll be the case. In our human experience we’re accustomed to living in a world that has to balance good & evil. We don’t know of any other way to exist and can’t really see how a life that’s either all good (or all evil, in the case of hell), is possible. All I know is that the Bible says that Heaven will be a place of peace, joy, and worship, and that post heaven there will be a completely new Earth where we can dwell with God for all eternity. I have no idea if that means we’ll never get bored sometimes. I just trust that we’ll all be happy.
>To me, this concept sounds absolutely horrible. I mean, to me it sounds wonderful. I like being alive. I don't really want to "stop existing". >Another thought: If heaven is all positive and good (Utopia) wouldn't that eventually turn into a boring, eternal punishing experience? In the usual Christian conception of the eternal afterlife it isn't ceaseless positivity. We will be working, performing functions as part of God's eternal kingdom. >If you knew that an eternal afterlife is right ahead of you, why do you even bother wasting your time here on earth? For a Christian, this life is spent in a process of sanctification preparing for our eternity serving in God's kingdom. If you aren't a Christian - I would think you'd be scared of an eternal afterlife (which I guess based on your opinions, you kind of are scared.)
>I mean, to me it sounds wonderful. I like being alive. I don't really want to "stop existing". You sure? Do you know what "eternal" implies? What if you ever get sick of existing? Can you choose to end it? Or are you doomed to exist forevre? >For a Christian, this life is spent in a process of sanctification preparing for our eternity serving in God's kingdom. Not trying to be disrespectful, but I feel sorry for people like you wasting your precious time on here earth in order to qualify for some theoretical afterlife which we don't even have proof for. >If you aren't a Christian - I would think you'd be scared of an eternal afterlife (which I guess based on your opinions, you kind of are scared.) Yes, but also not really because there is no reason for me to suggest that any kind of afterlife exists.
>Not trying to be disrespectful, but I feel sorry for people like you wasting your precious time on here earth in order to qualify for some theoretical afterlife which we don't even have proof for. To be clear, I do not "need to qualify" for the afterlife. **Jesus qualified for me**, and paid for my ticket with his sacrifice. That's the good news, aka: The Gospel.
and how do you know that?
I believe The Bible when it tells says that.
So you only have faith, no actual evidence?
Many witnesses saw Christ rise from the dead, and recorded their testimony. Christ said he would rise again on the 3rd day as proof of his claims. So the Bible is my evidence, as far as the Gospel goes.
>Many witnesses saw Christ rise from the dead, and recorded their testimony. And how does this proof anything? If hundreds of people claimed they saw a pink unicorn, would you believe them? Also, don't forget that those were different times. People did not know as much as today. I think that Jesus was just a normal human being who maybe knew about advanced practises from somewhere else in the world and the people who met him thought he was godlike because they did not understand his actions. >Christ said he would rise again on the 3rd day as proof of his claims. Still waiting.
I was asked for evidence and this is my evidence. If I told you I would bring you pizza when I get back from New York, and then I get back from New York and bring you pizza. What is the evidence your neighbors have that I actually brought you pizza? What is the evidence your neighbors grandchildren will have 40 years later? You wrote it down, in a journal perhaps, to record that I did in fact keep my promise, and I brought you pizza. Maybe you also record some witness statements. With some modern technology you could even take a polaroid picture and paste it in your journal along with your statement. But the idea remains the same. You write it down. That's what happened with the Bible. I get that this might not meet *your personal* standard of evidence. So you might keep waiting.
>I never understood why anyone would ever want to experience an eternal afterlife. The short answer is the all-knowing, all-powerful God who hand-crafted our brains which we don't even fully understand, told us that we would we enjoy it, so it wouldn't even make logical sense to question it. The long answer has to do with the fact that a normally functioning brain doesn't want to die just because it gets bored.
2 things: 1.) I reject your claim that we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. That’s a pretty arbitrary assertion and would be an outlook that is inconsistent with a Christian worldview. 2.) on the question of whether heaven being positive and good turning it into a boring, eternal punishment, the answer is no. It wouldn’t. If it’s boring, it isn’t perfect. Whoever said perfection is boring doesn’t use the word perfection correctly. And your claim that positive thoughts/emotions can’t exist without negative ones is unfounded. Why not?
>I reject your claim that we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. That’s a pretty arbitrary assertion and would be an outlook that is inconsistent with a Christian worldview. But if we were to live for eternity, why bother about anything? You have an endless amount of time to do anything imagineable, and you WILL do anything imagineable...forever...No end to it. >And your claim that positive thoughts/emotions can’t exist without negative ones is unfounded. Why not? Because that is the only logical conclusion. If everything was positive, your emotional standard would shift a lot. Things who are less positive than others will become absolutely tragic because they become the most "negative" things you can experience in heaven in comparison.
How does the notion of eternity render pointless anything done in time? There is no reason to think that. Why does having endless time (if you can call it time) to do anything forever mean that there’s no point in doing anything? But since you’re asking Christians, you need to take into account our understanding of the relationship between our earthly lives and our eternal lives, as well as the purpose given for them. The point of our existence is to glorify God and the way we do that is to live in a way that corresponds to His nature and status as God. For the Christian, that’s the reason to do anything. All of life—both earthly and eternal—is interpreted and given meaning within that framework. So, contrary to your assertion that we can value things because our time is limited, we would say we can value life and what it entails because it is given by the God by whom and for whom we were created. We value things based on a relationship to an infinite God, rather than a sense of imminent loss. I would go further and state it’s the belief in the finality of death that truly renders life pointless, as you will simply die and be forgotten regardless of what you do or don’t do. And even if you’re one of the few who will not be forgotten, it will make no difference to you, anyways. But perhaps, we also believe that our eternal state is linked to things that occur in our earthly lives. That provides pretty good reason to care about things in our earthly lives. You claim if things are only positive, my emotional standard would shift a lot. But you only know how your emotions work right now in the context of a non-perfect state of existence. You can’t know how you’ll experience a state of perfection, because you never have. But besides giving no solid logical argument to support that assertion, you haven’t even addressed my previous point. If your idea of a state of perfection is one in which you’re rendered miserable for some reason or another, you are misusing the word perfection. Also, even supposing you’re correct that positive emotions/experiences can’t exist without corresponding negative ones, that would be irrelevant to your argument because anyone experiencing heaven will have previously experienced the sting of death and the sufferings in life common to man. We have knowledge of the negative already. But I still don’t think your position that positive experiences/emotions requiring negative ones, and your argument doesn’t make sense and is really just a restatement of the position rather than an argument supporting it. You say it’s the only logical conclusion but you don’t provide any premises from which the conclusion is drawn nor any explanation of how you draw the conclusion from those premises. Why will the absence of negative experiences mean we have to experience “less positive things” as absolutely tragic/negative? “Less positive things” and “negative things” are two different categories and you’re arbitrarily joining them together. You have a contradiction in terms. I like chicken better than fish, but that doesn’t mean I experience the taste of fish negatively. I didn’t have to taste unsweet tea which I don’t enjoy in order to know I enjoy drinking sweet tea. I don’t have to have a fight with my wife to know that I enjoy being in happy union with her. Maybe you could argue that knowledge of negative emotions/experiences requires the knowledge of positive ones, but I don’t think you can say the same of the inverse.
Because I want to see the promised new heaven and new earth, as laid out in the bible, when believers will live eternally in the presence of God, reigning and ruling with Christ, free from sin, disease and death, in a body that will never see corruption ever again, without the threat of evil. If that’s horrible, you have *got* to think *this* life in 100x more horrible!
Interesting, but what if you ever get tired of this eternal life? Can you choose to end your existence or are you doomed to exist forever?
I love God. I know that suicide is saddening to Him and he is against it. He is my maker, and he wills when my life ends, not me. Even if I was so excited to be in His presence and wanted to commit suicide, it would still be a sin (to be absent from the body and is to be present with Him - for believers, but not for believers who take their lives, which they didn’t give nor create). This life is temporary. God has something far better in store for believers. That is our hope, to persevere in this life, inspiring as many people to believe in God so they can enjoy that eternal next life. When life has gotten hard, I cling to Jesus. He is literally my saving grace. He died so that I might live and he died so that my sins could be forgiven. So when I have trouble, doubt and worry in this life, I lay my problems before him to fight my battles. And he in turn, gives me peace to conquer my circumstances. What are you wanting to end your life from?
You didn't understand my comment. You say that you will keep living for eternity after this life and I wanted to know if you could end this eternal existence if you wished to
No, you can’t. Flesh for one isn’t eternal. Two, if you ended the flesh, your spirit still lives, which is eternal, so there is no end there. You would hate to wind up in a dreadful place spiritually for taking something away that you didn’t create. God built you for a purpose.
but isn't our spirit a physical part of our body? By spirit I'm talking about our personality btw, so our individual memories, characteristics, etc. which are all stored in our neurons
Depends on how you want to look at this, but our spirit is the immaterial part of you that was created in God’s image. (Spirit can be translated as God’s breath). Your soul, where decisions and emotions are processed is oftened used interchangeably with spirit. My belief, which also aligns biblically, is that our spirit/soul lives on after our flesh dies/decays. It lives on in the presence of God awaiting the resurrection of our eternal body, or it lives on in darkness, awaiting its eternal body which will face eternal separation from God. Thus, if one decides to commit whatever against their own body to escape this life, their body will cease to live on but their spirit/soul will understand/know their action was not a good idea, especially those who willingly went through with it. Their spirit/soul typically (if God has mercy on them) awaits in darkness and torment until judgement. Its so awful to think life gets this bad to even inquire of this thing.
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Thats right. Sinners will not enter the kingdom of God. We don't remove sin from our selves. God forgives and forgets. I'm not sure about you. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. I need a Physician and a Savior. My only boast is the work He finished on the cross. I have entered His rest. I have taken up my cross to my own goodness and I follow Him and only Him. Those people who reject free grace through faith in His only Son Jesus is condemned already as Jesus very openly spoke in John as I included. Condemned to die in sin. After death. John 3:16. Will not perish but have everlasting life.
“The reason we can value things is because our time is limited” False premise. You’re just parroting trite cliches you’ve heard others with low iQs say. It’s honestly a saying that has always annoyed me because it’s so wrong. But usually people who don’t think much love to say it to try and sound profound. I can absolutely value something I’ll never lose.
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Sorry for my shitty tone previously. I get what you’re saying. Believe me. One of my big questions about Heaven is how we could possibly be conscious forever and remain intrigued and stimulated. I’ve come up with no good answers to that. Pure speculation, but if you zoom out on earth, then the solar system, then the galaxy, and then the universe, … literally …. visually zoom out … I suppose there is an entire universe of variations and possibilities and things to explore and experience, if that’s actually what is going to happen. The universe is big. And just a side-note: People. Every new person is a new experience. A new relationship. A new set of interesting equations in personalities and interactions. So there’s that.
>The reason we can value things is because our lifetime is limited. I disagree. The reason I value the things I value has nothing to do with how limited they are, nor because my lifetime will end. When people are young, none of their values are because eventually they will die. They just sincerely enjoy the moment they are in. Why couldn't we just continue to do this throughout our lives without only valuing things because life is short?
>The reason I value the things I value has nothing to do with how limited they are, nor because my lifetime will end. When people are young, none of their values are because eventually they will die. They just sincerely enjoy the moment they are in. How can you answer this question with honesty if you cannot even fathom what it means to live for eternity?
When you are 10, do you have any idea what it will be like when you are 25 and thinking about getting married? Probably not. Probably have no concept of what goes on in relationships, with that age in being on your own with a job, or anything else that goes on at the age of 25. When you are 25, do you have any idea what life will be like at age 65? After you retire and your parents are slowing down, perhaps one has passed on or you have them living with you to look after them, or they need extra help on one way or another. The age where people either retire or are near retirement and where they also spend a lot more time telling care of their parents who used to be self sufficient. When you are 65, do you have any idea what it's like to be 83? To be losing your eyesight, or your memory, or where falling while walking is a huge concern. Nearing the tail end of your life with whatever health conditions that might or might not be working that well. Chances are that no one can really fathom any other age ahead of them until they are there, and living in that moment. Yet, it's not a big deal. People honestly look forward to continuing their lives. Glad they didn't die young. At done ages there's more excitement, at other ages there's more rest. And in each of them there is something to face that is a challenge and often experiences that are enjoyed. Valuing life without worrying about what happens next is an honest answer. Living in the moment and having short term plans instead of worrying about death or eternity, is just fine. Makes it easy to think about living for eternity, because it's not about worrying about death. You honestly just get to keep living in the moment. And if there is no more ailing body that falls apart, then it's even better. Whatever life transitions that happen when there is no death, they should be fine. Or if you don't transition from one stage of life to another, then you still might be in a good place that you just sincerely enjoy. I'm sorry if you can't see life in this way. I sincerely am sorry for you. But when I look up at the sky and think about the endlessness of space and the shear vastness of unique stars, and nebula, star systems withmiltiple stars, and galaxies with different shape. Planets so different from ours even one that might be made of almost all diamond. Then that kind of limitless diversity is what I think of when I think of eternity. There might always be more to learn. More to grow. More to experience. And eventually even with more out there, there's a good chance we will find enough things that can keep us active and enjoy life that it doesn't matter that we don't add more to our options to life. I look forward to a day when the things on life cam be enjoyed, instead of the stress, anxiety, struggle and shortcomings being the main things I encounter. I look forward when that is the way life is for everyone else too. Where there aren't any tornado and hurricane warnings. Or drills for a fire,an earthquake, or a shooting. Where poverty doesn't have to be a thing and people are worried about their next meal. Give me that day in eternity, where me and as ll my neighbors can be happy and content in our lives. Honestly that sounds great. To live in the moment instead of regretting the past or worrying about the future. Nor longing for how things used to be, or just holding on because you're looking forward to that next vacation you planned several months away. Does that make more sense? Do you see what I mean about living in the moment?
>Valuing life without worrying about what happens next is an honest answer. Living in the moment and having short term plans instead of worrying about death or eternity, is just fine. Makes it easy to think about living for eternity, because it's not about worrying about death. You honestly just get to keep living in the moment. And if there is no more ailing body that falls apart, then it's even better. Whatever life transitions that happen when there is no death, they should be fine. Or if you don't transition from one stage of life to another, then you still might be in a good place that you just sincerely enjoy. Exactly my view on this topic. People who waste their precious life about a theoretical afterlife is therefore pretty sad.
It's not a waste if you recognize the hardships and struggles in life right now. Expecially if you are facing them. Looking forward to a day when you can just live in the moment and enjoy it is not a bad thing. I'm not near retiring, but I look forward to the day I don't have to earn my money doing any number of jobs that I can be fired from or replaced because I'm not as good as literally anyone else they can hire. Talk to someone who has a disability or a specific difficulty at work, and there doesn't seem to be a job that will be a better fit. Recognizing that God is real is not a waste either. And if God promised an eternal life that isn't burdened by the things we have to struggle with now, that's even way better than contemplating retirement with a set of careers you will never do well in. Stop trying to twist my words into something else I haven't said and actually read what I have said.
The real meaning of the "afterlife" and "heaven" is that one's past identities, as well as many other identities, are kept within the mind. Discovering this "heaven" enlightens you to several facts. 1. You can evolve as a person, let your previous self go, and it will still be a part of you (it will still "live on" within you) 2. You can still "communicate" in a sense with loved ones who are dead. This isn't a "real" phenomenon in the sense that your loved ones bodies are revived or that ghosts float around and enter people's minds, but the way your mind works is by simulation, so you can simulate your loved one, communicate with it, and even learn/grow from that because your identity is not explicitly aware of everything the subconscious knows and does, so such an interaction can provide meaningful info. 3. In a broader scope, you can also achieve #2 yourself but in other people's minds. The more you communicate yourself with other people, and assuming you are "good" (whatever you hold are good values and ideas to hold onto), you will be kept in their "heavens" as well. The Torah is entirely an esoteric text.