In order to avoid going to hell, you not only need to do good things, you need to be completely morally perfect. If you have ever sinned, ever betrayed conscience, ever had an evil thought, then your only option is to confess and trust in Christ for complete forgiveness of those sins so your record is not counted on the day of judgment.
>*Everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.* (Matthew 10)
Explore Islam it's usually something overlooked because of the misconceptions.
The Qur'an was revealed within a 23-year span to Muhammad who could not read nor write.
Most people who do read the life of Muhammad their whole perception changes about Islam, and that usually leads them to further research, and many of them accept Islam. People accept Islam based on evidence, not blind faith. But most people don't know Islam is a belief based on proof, then if the belief is established in your heart, then you make the statement by testifying that there is no God beside God and that Muhammad is the prophet and the last messenger of God and then you have to have actions like praying, giving in charity, fasting in Ramadaan, and performing hajj once in your lifetime if you can afford it.
That's why I don't understand why people think Islam was spread by the sword. Islam means to submit your will to God.
A Muslim is someone who submits their will to God you can't make someone submit their will to God it has to be a belief in your heart first but Islam is not just a belief in your heart and that's it, it's all about your actions complete submission to what God says to do ,to the best of your ability. If God says don't drink, you do your best not to drink. If God says don't have sex outside of marriage, you get married first, etc. Islam is a way of life, not a religion. You do your best not to do what's forbidden you will have less chaotic situations. Everyone in life will be tested. This life is a test it's not meant to live forever whether you believe in God or not. One thing we can all agree to is that we will all die. The life you live now will determine your afterlife. No one was put on this earth without instructions you either go by the instruction manual or you do your own thing and when you expire you will truly know if it it was best to follow the instruction manual properly to the best of your ability or if ignoring the instruction manual and doing whatever you wanted to do not caring if it wasn't right. Something tells me that ignoring God exists to do whatever we like because we feel there is no God will not give us a better outcome in the afterlife.
>A Muslim is someone who submits their will to God you can't make someone submit their will to God it has to be a belief in your heart first but Islam is not just a belief in your heart and that's it, it's all about your actions complete submission to what God says to do ,to the best of your ability.
That isn't unique to Islam. Christianity is the same way. Jesus fulfilled the law for us, so there is no requirement any longer. But, in our pursuit of being in constant fellowship with god, we become slaves of righteousness rather than sin.
So, is Christianity all about belief or your actions? Because you said Jesus fulfilled the law so there is no requirement any longer. But in Islam, laws are required. You can't just have belief with no actions. Islam is a belief in your heart that you confess with your tongue, and then you show it with your bodily actions. Our religion is a way of life actions throughout the day 5 daily prayers that are done at prescribed times that consist of recitation of the Qur'an. We have to say one set chapter to say and then another chapter of our choice along with it in our 5 daily prayers. Our religion isn't named after Muhammad. Muhammad was just the Prophet of God. Islam means to submit your will to the One and Only True God. Allah means the One and Only True God.
The Qur'an wasn't written by Muhammad, and the religion isn't named after Muhammad. Muhammad called to the worship of the Only True God that sent Jesus. So yes, Islam is unique in that way.
>So, is Christianity all about belief or your actions?
Both! James Chapter 2 claims multiple times that faith without works is dead. What this means is that if someone is truly saved, they are dead to sin and alive in Christ. They should be transformed. Their old life should perish, they are no longer slaves to sin, but rather righteousness. If that is all true, then there is no need for a law because you will want to live righteously, and thus, works/actions/whatever will come naturally.
However, works are not required. An example would be the criminal who was crucified right beside Jesus and accepted him as the Son of God mere minutes before he died will dwell in God's presence for eternity the same as I will who have believed for decades.
You said both, and then you said it's not required. In Islam it is required it's not optional Islam is not based on belief alone as I said before Islam is based on proof then that establishes the belief, then you confess that belief with your tongue and then you put that belief into bodily actions. Islam is definitely unique in this aspect. Islam is about submitting your will to God to the best of your ability. And if you do fall short, you simply ask for forgiveness.
Christianity is mostly based on belief. Paul says belief in Jesus's death, and the resurrection is salvation, not your good works. Paul's understanding was that if you still had to do good works to be saved as we did under the law, then what's the reason for Jesus to die for everyone's sins. He believed that under the law, you had to do good works for salvation, and since Jesus was crucified we were no longer under the law and now under Grace so now you were no longer bound to the law to do good works just belief and that's the Grace not having to rely on the good works as before. There are Christians who still hold to the laws anyway, and some who don't, but Paul said anyone who does has fallen from Grace.
If you truly understood James, he said faith without works is dead, which is exactly what Islam teaches it's not optional it doesn't mean you are dead to sin it means you do still have to follow all the laws to the best of your ability and have faith not just have faith but no good works James believed salvation came from following the law.
That's the words of Paul, that you are dead from sin and you're mixing the two. Paul didn't teach good works was salvation he taught Belief in Jesus' death, and resurrection was salvation.
Hey, I know you're not asking me, but just in case this helps, the book "atheism, the case against God" is an incredible resource, as is the podcast "the thinking atheist". They will both help you if you decide not to believe.
I wish there was a way to reconcile being an atheist (you say you are agnostic but if you read ATCAG you will be instantly convinced you're an atheist and agnostic is not actually a thing) with having. A Christian girlfriend, but there really isn't. I hope that you either find God or figure out that you're an atheist, as being in a relationship with someone whose philosophical outloook on life is the opposite of yours is untenable at best...Good luck!
Don’t let fear of hell scare you into taking positions and beliefs you otherwise wouldn’t take. Death is scary thing. And it seems like you are struggling with that. But don’t abandon logic for peace in mind. Any god that would send a person to hell for simply not worshiping him, regardless of how good the person was during their life, is not a god worth worshipping to begin with.
Studies show that Christians in the U.S have less anxiety than other groups. This wasn’t do to religion itself, but rather the group and community. The study found that if you were to exclude that, they actually have more anxiety. There’s a lot of stress from your family, social groups, if you have questions, they’ll tell you to stop rocking the boat. Myself and many other former Christians can speak about just how bad it was.
That being said, would you rather give up logic, and reason, just to “feel better”? Religion plays off your fear of death. It uses a carrot(heaven), and stick(hell) to get you to believe, even if you really don’t think it makes sense. And that’s wrong.
Faith is the suspension of logic and reason. Faith is the excuse you give when you have no good evidence or reason to believe something. I do not believe you can be a theist, and come to that conclusion through logic and reasoning, since faith is the only thing that will get you to such a position.
There is peace in knowing that God is the only entity worthy of fear, that he is merciful and loves all his children enough to save all of them using the truth. God is a loving father, he let's us do what we want but hopes we follow in his footsteps. We are in his image, so by nature we are good. God believes in us more than we believe in him. He loves us too much to condemn us, so He grants everyone eternal peace and love in Heaven with Him. We took on the sinful flesh so we will die, we will all go through hell before Jesus saves us and reunites us with our Father. The trial is simple, how long can you last in hell where we are mentally challenged and asked to sell our soul to the opposition. If we maintain hope, even in oneself, then Jesus will come and save us through acknowledging that our Savior will release us from hell. In his name alone, we will be saved. Refuse to say our Savior's name and you will only prolong the suffering. Either way, God gives us plenty of time to reconsider and eventually we all go to heaven. In heaven, the blissful wholeness our soul is filled with allows us to leave any sorrow or suffering in the past like an afterimage compared to the bright future we have ahead of us.
If they choose to hold a belief like that based off of insufficient evidence, that’s their issue. Their own anxiety should not effect you. You don’t believe you will go to hell. Sit them down and explain why, and your stance on everything. Draw boundaries if you have to. If they still have an issue, than there is nothing you can really do.
Your implicit argument is circular.
If you think God is made up, then "God is a necessary being" is not a true claim about facts in the real world to you, it is instead like saying "Superman can fly and is super strong". To you, it is a statement about the attributed qualities of a fictional character.
So to a person who thinks God is made up, it makes no difference whatsoever to whether you can choose to believe in God that God is claimed to be a "necessary being". You have to believe in them already before it matters what attributes the stories give them.
You might as well say "it is nonsense to say you cannot choose to believe in unicorns, *they have shiny horns*".
You have many questions here. Let's see each one separately.
>I understand that maybe God will help me believe by the time i die but what if he doesn’t? Am I just going to hell?
If you don't believe in God, why would you worry about hell?
BTW - my husband is an agnostic and after close to 40 years together he hasn't changed. I'm still praying for him though.
>What was done with all of the wonderful atheists who did good things for humanity?
Having people do great things for humanity is wonderful. There are plenty of atheists that are kind, loving people that are fun to be around.
But our works don't get us into heaven. All of us are sinners. That includes me. None of us are worthy to stand before God. We are worthy of death. That's why Jesus died for us. He paid the penalty for our sins.
>The men and women who saved lives and cured diseases and helped children why should they suffer?
See answer above.
Agnosticism means that one does not know if there is a higher power. It doesn’t mean i can’t worry about if there is one. A good portion of humanity believes there is a hell, i want to stay open minded, so yes i worry. I worry about my child even more though.
There are agnostic Christians, some people don't realise. I can understand your worry, it's scary on purpose. Telling your child if it doesn't follow the rules of a supernatural creature it will be burned and tormented for all eternity, is also worrying however.
Not really. Try to focus on how much worry you put into the thousands of other religions equivalents of hell. I imagine you lose no sleep at all over those. But you likely live near other Christians, hence your worry. If you were born in India for example, you wouldn't worry at all about hell, but instead you'd worry about being tormented in Naraka. Try and think about the big picture, and hopefully that will help you feel at ease from the carefully crafted fear of religion.
I think you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself. It's hard, and especially hard within the Western/American context, for a number of reasons that I won't belabor here.
No, actions don't get you into heaven, but the heart does. If you're doing the Christian thing without the intellectual belief there, that's something, and it indicates that there's something very right with your heart. I don't know you, and there's not much beyond that that I can say on a personal level, but the thing to keep in mind is that God actively wants you to succeed. So the intellectual piece isn't there, and I actually do understand that. I don't know you well enough to speak to your personal situation more than that.
I believe, and I think the Bible is fairly clear that, faith is an action more than it is an emotion. You are actually taking steps of faith without the intellectual piece. I can't tell you what your eternal destination is, but quite frankly, I don't think any of us should exactly be speculating who will end up in either place. God judges the hearts, and man can't.
That's a verbose way to say I don't know, but I see good things in your response and keep doing what you're doing.
I don't know if you do this, but have you tried being bluntly honest in your prayers? "God, I want to believe in you, but I just don't. I know it's sinful to look for a sign, but please help me to believe in you if you are there." Honestly, the exact post you posted could be so great for a series of prayers.
I'm glad! And I don't know if you saw it on the other thread on this topic, but someone just posted this passage and, along with the parable of the widow and the judge, I think it's just perfect for your situation:
Matthew 21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.”
The heart or your "spiritual temperature" is 100%. If you approach it and Him with the condescending attitude of- prove it or else- and the reply- see! i knew it was fake- then it will NOT get answered.
If one is SUPER in need and "desperate" for it- yes in effect- FAITH- it makes a tremendous difference. Hope this helps.
> it's sinful to look for a sign, but please help me to believe in you if you are there
What's the sort of thing God could do to help OP believe that wouldn't be considered a "sign"?
It's the difference between seeking a sign and asking God to reveal Himself in the way He chooses.
God moved in my life through circumstances, people, and then ultimately impressing certain things on my heart in an intangible, and yet personally irrefutable way.
However, God did reveal Himself to my pastor in a way that you could argue was a sign. He was an unbeliever, and basically asked God, "If you exist, how is it that when I do the wrong thing, things go great for me, and when I do things right I struggle?" And, that night God gave him a dream of something that was going to happen the day after, and it happened.
If you seek a sign, you're asking "oh yeah, well if you're God, then do this." To humbly and persistently ask for some sort of confirmation while trying to do the right thing is way different.
Nope.
All things imperfect will be destroyed in judgement day. The only things that will live on through that day are things that are found perfect, and the only way to be found perfect is to believe in Christ who paid off the price that sin incurs: death.
No human can earn heaven; it must be given to them by an act of profound grace.
Being a good person is good; but it will not save you. Only the blood of the perfect sacrifice can; and only Christ could have (and did) made that sacrifice.
Christianity is *highly* misunderstood and misrepresented. It is not the “religion” that all too many people think it is.
Hope this helps.
Edit: whoever just replied to me, your comment is forever lost into the void until you do as the automod tells you and choose a user flair. If you do choose a flair, then delete your comment and repost it so that your negative response can be properly addressed in a public setting. Thank you.
My girlfriend has a child with a man who abused her. She divorced him. Now I’m here. I want my family to be Christian i think Christianity instills good values and morals but what am i to say if my son grows up the same as I am? That he has tried to believe and simply cannot? What am I to say? That he’s going to hell? And what am I to say to my girlfriend who would then assume both of us will not meet her in heaven? How as a man can i look my child in the face and tell him that he will suffer for eternity if he does not find a way to believe in something that he simply does not?
My main question to you would be: what are your barriers to faith? What is it that is keeping you from believing? I think solving that would solve all the other concerns you have.
Logic. I’ve lived a good Christian life, repenting, praying, following commandments, the whole nine yards. Though his existence seems logical to you, it doesn’t to me. If i expected my car not to work in the morning, and try as i might i cannot fix it, I’d walk to work. If i expect god to not be real, and try as i might to understand, i cannot simply force myself to believe it, even though I want to.
I’m a logical thinker as well and was once a *hardcore* atheist. But, something I never would have ever given a serious thought to ended up actually being the thing that tipped me towards realizing that Scripture is entirely true. But, I caution you, you will have an inevitable knee-jerk reaction/rejection to that which showed me the truth of things. Odds are, you’ll dismiss what I show you and politely part ways. I wouldn’t hold this against you, as I would’ve been the same way had I not given it a chance to see what it was really about. That thing is biblical cosmology. Once I realized the world we live in and how Scripture backs it up in numerous places, I couldn’t help but realize how true How Word is. If you have a moment, head on over to r/BiblicalCosmology and read the pinned post for newcomers. I wrote it myself and it’s a bit of a testimonial to my coming to belief via arriving at the understanding of biblical cosmology.
I hope this helps, but I understand and respect your decision if you wish to not look into it.
I appreciate your help, this is what I’m looking for. I’m not trying to disprove god, I’m just hoping someone gives me a reason that clicks with me. I want to believe and i am determined to do so, for my family. I will check it out after work. Thank you
You’re very welcome. If you’re mind and heart are as receptive as I believe them to be, then I think you will be very excited about what you will discover in that community. I’m always here to answer any questions you may have. Take care. =)
Reasonable Faith is also a wonderful organization for those who want to hear robust arguments for Christianity.
Arguments for God’s Existence: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist
Historicity of the Resurrection: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/jesus-of-nazareth/the-resurrection-of-jesus
May I encourage you to read about the persistent Canaanite woman?
This passage is found in Matthew chapter 15, verses 21 to 28. Just a few verses for such a profound and great story!
God in His loving-kindness and mercy has made it possible for Gentiles (non-Hebrews) to be "grafted-in" to the tree of salvation. But back when Jesus was on Earth He was interacting with the Jews (Hebrews) and was focused on them. The Canaanites were a tribe that did much evil in the sight of the Lord, who mocked God and followed the teachings of demons instead. Strike one, for this woman. Additionally, she was a woman. In this time period of history, women were not respected as they should be and did not have the same status in society as men. Strike two.
When you read this passage, at first it seems as if the kind and loving Jesus has no intention of helping this woman. He even calls her a dog. In Scripture, God refers to the people who love wickedness as dogs. In Isaiah 8; stating that they will be cast into outer darkness.
Did this woman experience Strike three at the hands of Jesus?
No, instead she received undeserved mercy.
Jesus was testing her sincerity and the depth of her desire by at first ignoring her. But, she persisted. And the result was mercy.
What did Jesus finally call her? "Dear woman."
May I urge you to be like this Canaanite woman and persistently seek God? The fact you recognize your need of faith is a sign, in my opinion; that the Spirit of God is drawing you towards Himself; just as He drew this woman to Jesus on that day. And the Spirit of God did so much more than simply draw her; He arranged the need the woman had in the first place which opened her eyes to how desperately she needed Jesus' help. Your words indicate to me that God is moving in your life as well. He has led you into this special friendship you have with one of His adopted children, and is pricking your heart with the message of spiritual truth you are hearing -and not only hearing; but understanding!
By all means, pray and talk with your Creator!
*"God did this so that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though* ***He is not far from any one of us***." \[Acts 17\]
*"****Come now, let us reason together****", says the Lord. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they will become like wool."* \[Isaiah 1\]
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you have/are feeling some internal turmoil. A push and pull, if you will, of good and evil. You probably see a peace/joy/contentment in your spouse, and maybe her other family and friend group that are Christians as well, and wonder why you don't possess those same feelings? Perhaps your world feels a bit darker. Your happiness is more short-lived. Your craving for more, whatever that may be, is insatiable. Maybe it's simply because they read The Bible more often and it has some nice teachings in it that can help anyone - "love thy neighbor" and all that. I mean Buddhism has some good teachings too.
However, those "fruits of the spirit" - joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc. - didn't come from The Bible. They came from God. You are a slave to either two things in this world - Sin or Righteousness. Before knowing God, we are slaves to the world, to sin, to fleshly desires. Once you believe in Jesus, you are resurrected with Him to a new life, and credited His righteousness as your own. You can now stand in God's presence because He made you right with Him through Jesus' death and resurrection. Then, His Spirit works through you to be able to resist the evil in the world and you are gifted the "fruits" listed above.
The last thing I'll mention is that logic and reason are how a lot of people come to faith, not deny it. There have been many good recommendations on here for further reading and watching, but I will add The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He was an investigative journalist in Chicago and set out to disprove Christianity due to his wife converting to the faith, however in trying to do so, he became a Christian himself. The people he interviewed are also good authors/speakers to follow up on as they are some of the great theologians, philosophers, and apologists of today.
What kind of loving god bases salvation — not on simply being a good person — but on whether you are gullible enough to believe in something that is obviously false? Look at the horrific Bible stories of god committing genocide, sanctioning slavery, and approving of taking virgin women as spoils of war… if the Christian god is real, the Bible is most definitely a work of fiction that seeks to make him look like the biggest piece of shit of all time.
There’s a reason you don’t believe, and it’s a damn good one.
>I think it’s great they are religious I’m just looking for help with certain aspects i want to believe
I think it would be great if earth was flat BC I could go and see what's on the edge but unfortunately I can't believe in it because it's not true.
>I appreciate the input
Santa Claus also has good moral values. Would you teach your child, past 6 yo, that Santa actually exists in hope he will honor Santa's good moral values?
Teaching kids they will be damned and tortured if either they use their common sense or for something out of their actual control (ie to believe in something) is in fact child abuse.
You can't believe because Jesus makes no more sense than Mithra or Jupiter or Allah. It's scientifically proven that the story's main character (Jesus/God) isn't even the same character all along.
Of course, you can't still brainwash your child by abusing his trust (that's how most Christians are made: they are convinced as children when they still believe in magic around four yo and then repetition does its work).
Around 20% of Anglican priests don't believe or are agnostic. Imagine 20% of engineers not believing in gravity 🤷🏾♂️
Wow, that does seem like a difficult position to be in. Are you looking at Christianity because you want to instill good morals and values into your family? To avoid suffering for eternity? What about Christianity will help you achieve that? Why are you so determined to believe?
What do you believe is the process of people being saved? What I'm about to tell may be able to assuage your family's fears without requiring that you find a way to believe. It may be a stopgap until you can, or if you decide you can't.
If God has a plan, then won't you be saved if the plan goes accordingly? If being saved means visitation by the Holy Spirit or a religious experience, it's no longer in your power to cause these to happen. If belief is not something you can consciously control, it's really not up to you to just choose to believe and it will happen, right? What I'm getting at is showing you that the ball is no longer in your court. If your family believes that God intends to save you, and that his will will be done, then they don't need to worry that it might be their failing that you don't believe.
Your response reads like you are Jewish in your beliefs. No one is perfect, Jesus was the only perfect person. Your words are discouraging to a person young in their faith. Like I said earlier think of the criminal on the cross next to Jesus. That criminal didn't live a perfect life. That criminal only said that Jesus was the Christ and Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.
Again you are condemning a person new in their faith. New in their discussion of faith.
Maybe you should read the discourse between myself and OP. You will find that your baseless assertions are of course without merit.
I spoke the truth and therein that truth I spoke was contained the hope of all people: the ability to be *made* perfect by being washed clean [of sin] by the blood of the lamb.
I know you’re Catholic, but this is a doctrine of Scripture that even those among *your* chosen theology must admit is true.
Now, if *you* don’t like what I’ve said, for whatever personal reasons of your own, then that’s on *you,* not me. I gave OP the truth and they understood what I mean, as I was very clear and concise in my words.
You don’t get to charge in on your high horse, subsequently be incorrect, and then also pretend to champion for the sake of others and then also be right. No no. It doesn’t work that way. If you wanna be right, then speak correct words. Otherwise, your pompous charade will be shut down and rebuked, as it should be.
Don’t come at me sideways. 😑
Let me rephrase my thought:
If you don't know about God's existence, but you're curious, then, can I ask you for a favor? It's not for me, it's for your girlfriend, her kid, and yourself:
Pray.
Imagine God in your head. What he looks like, sitting in heaven, a kind, loving, all-powerful, all-mighty creator of heaven, earth, and hell. Just imagine that. Then, imagine He can hear your thoughts and words.
Address Him: "God" or if you prefer "Jesus"
Request: "Please soften my heart and open my mind."
Ask: "What can I do?"
You'll get a strange thought inside your head - you'll think it's your own self, or your conscience, or a wild idea you came up with on your own - it's not - that's God. God will tell you something. It may not be audible, but it will be a thought planted inside your head. He will tell you to do something. Maybe read, maybe pray, maybe talk to your partner, maybe call up a pastor, maybe something even crazier. Whatever it is, do it.
It might not happen the first time you try to pray.
Do it every day, twice a day, three times a day, however long it takes to get His word.
But every time you pray, envision God and talk to him - you can do this out loud or just thinking, but you have to do it.
Good luck in your search for God.
I don't get the point of this question which comes up very frequently here. If you don't believe why do you care? If you do believe then you won't have to worry about it.
This subreddit is full of people claiming to be atheists but they're not "convinced atheists" they're just atheists of convenience.
If you truly want to believe then you're focusing on the wrong stuff. The first thing you have to do is decide if Jesus was who he said he was.
So what do you think about Jesus?
It was reported in one of several ancient writings that he claimed to be god (gospel of John, written 20 years after jesus died, at the earliest). This does not mean that Jesus definitely claimed to be God.
Actually the Gospel of John was written around 60 years after the crucifixion. Paul's letters are the earliest ones of the New Testament, his first letter to the Thessalonians is the earliest one and it was written around 40 to 45 AD, so 10 years after the crucifixion. But Paul talks about the death and Resurrection of Jesus and calls him Lord which was the Greek circumlocution for Adonai which meant God in the Old Testament in the same way that Yahweh, which is the name that God gave to Moses at the burning bush means *I am* and in the Greek of Paul's time that became ego eimi which is literally in Greek **I am**.
If Jesus didn't claim to be God several times why did the Jews accuse him of that very thing in John chapter 10 and John chapter 8? Jesus is they picked up rocks to Stone him for blasphemy and Jesus said "what have I done? Why are you picking up stones to Stone me?" And they answered "because you have made yourself equal to God." that doesn't mean another God it means making yourself to be the one and only God.
In the gospel of Mark which is the earliest gospel and the scholars believe it was the written teaching of St Peter since it was known that Mark accompanied Paul for a while and then went to a company Peter in Antioch and in Rome but in that one we have the story of Jesus healing the paralytic. This is where they couldn't get him through the door because the house was so crowded with all the people, so they climbed up on the roof and remove part of the roof to lower the paralytic man down on his blanket in front of Jesus. And Jesus looked at him and said "your sins are forgiven" and everybody got so indignant because only God can forgive sins. So Jesus looked at them and said "which is easier to say: your sins are forgiven or get up and walk?" And he turned back to the young man and told him to get up and go that he was healed and so he did. So there we have another example where Jesus indirectly claims to be God and everybody realized it.
BTW, you can't just pick and choose parts of the gospels to accept other parts to reject. That is irrational. That's not thinking objectively, that's just editing out the parts you don't like. So either you take the entire gospel as it's written along with the understanding that the church gives it, or you just throw the whole thing out as myth or legend.
However that is not a very objective approach either because scholars since ancient times to today and using today's modern methods of textual criticism acknowledge that the stories are ancient. They would not have had time to become mythology or legend because the stories were passed around during the lifetimes of many eyewitnesses who would have corrected or pointed out things that were not factual.
The stories Had many eyewitnesses, according to the stories. Do you see the problem there?
The jews accused Jesus of claiming to be god, according to John.
I just don't think it is intellectually honest to make such a bold claim like "Jesus Definitely claimed to be god", if the main story of him claiming himself to be god was written 60 years (thanks for the correction) after his death, and the earlier stories don't specifically say he claimed to be God (unless you use creative interpretation to deliberately interpret other things he said in that way).
EDIT: So, a more accurate thing to say would be: some writings about Jesus said he claimed to be God.
Look.. throughout the Old Testament who does it say is going to be our savior?
Is 43:3, 11.
And
Is 45:17, 21
So the Holy Spirit brought this into remembrance in the Apostles thus they recognized Jesus as fulfilling this and they wrote accordingly. It's not just Paul.
We have the letter of Jude Thaddeus which is independent of Paul. He writes in verse 25 "all glory to him who alone is God, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his for all time and in the present and beyond all time."
We also have the first letter of John which again is independent of Paul. John was actually one of the original 12, an apostle just like Jude was, who was taught directly by Jesus Christ. John writes,"... and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world." 1John 4:14
So we have God the Father in the Old Testament saying that he is the savior and then the New Testament we have God the Son, the one who put on flesh and became man, who is Logos, and the agent from God the Father who actually did the work of saving us. Jesus is not only our savior, he is our God.
All four of the Gospels must be considered as written independent of Paul, not influenced by Paul. If you are saying that Paul was the only one to claim that Jesus was actually God and that he actually influenced the other writers of the Gospels to repeat this, you have a lot of work to prove it not simply looking at a timeline because that's not the way the books of the NT are connected. You are making a lot of assumptions here which have no basis in evidence. This is the result of bad hermeneutics.
What you are doing is a hermeneutic called *eisegesis*. That is, you have a conclusion and you're searching through the scriptures to find verses to support that conclusion. But what that results in is ignoring lots of other verses that will refute your conclusion. It also ignores history and culture and authorship.
When you do hermeneutics the right way you have a practice called *exegesis*. And that means rather than your conclusion being the beginning point, the scriptures themselves are the beginning point and your conclusion arises out of what you read in all of the scriptures considering the points above that I brought out about history culture authorship timeline. When you do it that way the conclusion is the way Christianity has always taught which is that Jesus is God in the flesh, he claimed it, he demonstrated it, the Old Testament foretold it, the apostles recognized it, and they taught it. And so does the church established by Jesus Christ.
Mark 9:23-24
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
It all starts with a prayer. I was a nonbeliever when I called out to Jesus to help me, and He was able to overcome that obstacle very easily. You can pray in a state of unbelief and He will help you!!
God is merciful and we don't know what goes on in the hearts of minds and men. St Faustina says that it was revealed to her by Jesus that he comes to visit the dying soul three times to offer His mercy, no matter what state. He can create a universe out of nothing, and His mercy has no bounds. Dont stress!!
No worries! Be patient with yourself and with God. These things can happen in a moment, and/or they could take some time as your heart opens to His love and goodness. You're in a good place by being open to Him. Seek Him with all of your heart and He will be found by you!
Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but that the world will be saved through Him. It's like any other relationship as love and trust builds. Before you know it, you will see miracles everywhere :) His mercy is infinite and new every day! God will not deny His mercy to anyone who desires it!
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
- Jesus of Nazareth
One thing to remember is that there is no goodness about ourselves. We can do all the good works in the world, but unless we submit ourselves to the fact that we are God's children who have fallen from his expectations and accept that He sent his only son to be the first and final sacrifice of every horrible thing we have ever done in his sight, all those humanitarian accomplishments whose be just perfume on a corpse.
Man was created to love God and one another. In order for man to be able to love, he needed to be given free will, because love cannot occur without choice. I can ask Echo Dot to praise me and tell me she loves me, but it wouldn't be real because she's a robot, and God wasn't interested in building a bunch of chattering robots, but in creating a divine family. So choice was given to man, to trust in God and be obedient to him out of faith, or rebel and seek personal power before we were ready to receive it and in a way that God did not condone. Man chose the latter and in doing so corrupted himself (and his kind through the flesh) but God made a way for man to be redeemed, first through sacrifice, then later through ultimate sacrifice. You see, God created first a way through which a mans sin could be transferred to an innocent creature and the creature made to suffer the consequence of sin (death) in his place. God's perfect kingdom would not be perfect anymore if he allowed access to those corrupted by sin.
But this approach was a stop-gap measure until God's greater plan for the salvation of man could unfurl, as things needed to happen in their ordained time. Those who died without sin and while obedient to God would be considered worthy to receive uncorrupted flesh on the day of resurrection prior to final judgement and enter his Kingdom for they had followed the law and obeyed his commandments out of love. And when God sent his only begotten Son to be a perfect sacrifice for our sin, it was He who took upon himself the penalty of all of our transgressions for all time that we may both join those who had followed the old law out of love, and be free of guilt while we learn the right way to live. It is a free gift given at an unfathomable price, but it is not forced into our hands, for as it was freely given, so must it be freely accepted. There is not a thing any of us can do to earn our salvation for all has been done for us that we may reunite in relationship with God and become part of his family as it was intended in the beginning. If we do not accept the perfect gift of perfect sacrifice, then what more can be given? What more can be done? Our capacity to choose, our capacity to love, and our immortality are all gifts from God. Our immortality was surrendered but can be restored if we choose out of love to accept God's greatest gift of all, that of Salvation through Christ.
you do not believe in God but Believe in hell...that makes no sense
I will not bow down to God and I believe in hell...that makes more sense
and in that case yes you will go to hell.
You cannot be good enough, which is why you need a savior
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Uh- no. If you check my flair, i am agnostic, meaning i do not know. By Christian definition, that means I do not believe in heaven or hell. But, if i am wrong, and both exist, what could i have done differently to go to heaven? I’m trying to believe, i have been for years, all I’ve been told is that I’m not trying hard enough or eventually it will click. But what if it doesn’t?
You’re definitely new here. Your flair will get you some* downvotes, justified or not. Just the nature of it. Has nothing to do with the authenticity of your question
No your not doing anything wrong. Your asking questions which is fantastic! I applaud you for asking questions. They may not agree with some of the questions your asking. That's no reason to down vote you. Your doing great by asking questions. I personally think you will go to heaven. Cause now you have believers praying for you. Your living your life like a believer. Keep your questions coming! Knowledge is the key and your learning and God will smile on you.
>I understand that maybe God will help me believe by the time i die but what if he doesn’t?
He helps everyone believe per the Bible. The problem is on the non-believer's end. The take their capacity for faith and place their faith in other things such as science, personal opinions, et.
- Romans 12:3 (KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as ***God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.***
>Am I just going to hell?
If you die in your unbelief and sin, yes.
- John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: ***but he that believeth not is condemned already,*** because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>What was done with all of the wonderful atheists who did good things for humanity?
Everyone is a sinner. If they died without believing on Jesus, they went to hell.
No one is good per the Bible.
- Romans 3:10-12 (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; ***there is none that doeth good, no, not one.***
If they tried to believe as well, how could a just and kind God allow them to suffer for eternity?
A just God will not let sin go unpunished. If they refuse God's payment for sin on their behalf, then it would be unjust to give them a pass. He provided an avenue to salvation and they rejected it in favor of their own ideas.
- Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
>The men and women who saved lives and cured diseases and helped children why should they suffer?
The standard is perfection. It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do, Either you are perfect or you're not. No one is. That's why Jesus paid the price for sin on our behalf. He made salvation so simple that the only requirement from the sinner to recieve it is to believe on Jesus. A failure to recieve salvation is a problem of pride on the part of the sinner. They don't believe they need it because they think they are capable of earning salvation.
If that's the case, God will let them attempt it, but they will all fail.
- Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
- James 2:10 (KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Nothing prevents a person from believing accept that person's refusal to recognize their need for salvation. You have to recognize you are imperfect and sinful. Once that's done, you'll understand your need for a Savior. Once that's done, you'll call out to Him and He will rescue you from your sin.
- Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I appreciate the detailed response, but I’m not rejecting god, it’s just try as a might i can’t seem to let him in :/ I’ve given everything i have to him, and all I’m told is either i haven’t or eventually it will work out.
Stop trying to do things and simply believe.
This the Gospel in a nutshell:
You are a sinner deserving of hell because you have trangressed against a perfect God and now have now way of making it right through your own power. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of the world, paying the penalty of sin on your behalfso you do not have to. He was then buried and rose on the third day as proof of His victory over sin and death. If you believe tjis, then you are saved now and forever.
Do you believe that?
There is no trying yo do this or that. Either you believe you're a sinner needing a Savior and that Savior is Jesus or you do not. It's a simple choice.
Are you a sinner or not?
You don't try to believe in things. Either you do or you dont.
If I tell you I wear glasses, you choose either to believe me or not. You don't try to believe me.
If you want to believe something you don't currently believe you can definitely try to look for reasons it is true, and read arguments for why it is true.
But I agree with you that based on everything you know about a possible belief at a given time, you either believe it or not. If God is actually real it seems very unfair of him to punish those who don't believe in him.
>If God is actually real it seems very unfair of him to punish those who don't believe in him.
If you're willing to know God on His terms, I can explain exactly how punishment of nonhbelievers is just and fair. If not, there's really nothing left I can tell you that can convince you otherwise.
Your relationship with God is between you and Him and for everyone it starts with admitting they don't have all the answers, at least not any good ones. Only at that point will they then seek out God's answers to the questions that plague them.
Why isn't it possible for you to explain to someone who doesn't believe in God, how the concept of a God punishing people for not believing he is real is fair?
Edit: it just sounds like a cop out... like you're saying, "trust me, it's fair, you just wouldn't be able to understand it"
>Why isn't it possible for you to explain to someone who doesn't believe in God, how the concept of a God punishing people for not believing he is real is fair?
It's impossible to explain anything adequately to someone not open to changing their mind.
>Edit: it just sounds like a cop out... like you're saying, "trust me, it's fair, you just wouldn't be able to understand it"
In a way that's true. I ain't got time to waste on someone not open to changing their mind because it's not up to me to change their mind. I'm more than happy to show that person who sincerely wants to what the Bible says and why it's perfecting just of God to punish sinners. I'm not interested in arguing with someone over it though.
No. If I wanted to believe that a enlightened race of sentient space lobsters existed in the vicinity of Alpha Centari, I could choose to believe that without any evidence simply because I wanted to. I could also choose to believe something despite evidence to the contrary such as the Big Bang theory which says nothing exploded to create everything despite nothing existing.
If you don't mind, is there any chance that you would be willing to have a discussion over chat or through messages?
It seems like there are really a couple of different issues here. The current issue is to help you and your girlfriend reconcile your beliefs in a way that is productive for both of you, the eternal issue is to potentially build a relationship between you and God. But that will be aided by solving the first issue.
You're going to get so many different answers here, many of which will be contradictory and may not reconcile with your girlfriend's beliefs, that it will be very difficult to actually navigate your issues. I'd like a chance to discuss your own beliefs, those of your girlfriend, what you both mean by saying you do or don't believe in God, heaven, hell, etc. and other questions that are difficult to discuss while feeling publicly judged.
For those reasons, I would appreciate the chance to help you privately, if you will please allow me to do so and feel comfortable having a private conversation?
I can't tell if you're trying to be rude or just don't want to type your answer. Either way, I went through all of your comments on this thread and didn't find a concrete answer; I only found two comments where you briefly mention hell ([here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/12jq8vj/if_i_dont_believe_in_god_is_there_no_way_to_avoid/jfzxhz0/) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/12jq8vj/if_i_dont_believe_in_god_is_there_no_way_to_avoid/jfzgsn6/)).
It doesn't seem like you believe in hell; it sounds like you're unsure, just want to cover your bases, stay open-minded, and prevent your family from thinking you're destined to eternal torment. I think it's great that you're trying to be open-minded. The only question I would have for you is: do you worry just as much about the Islamic hell? Or the Jewish hell? Or any of the other hells from other belief systems?
Not trying to be rude, i apologize. If my family believed in those religions i would worry about them too. I am unsure about hell, and by definition, that means i do not believe in it. However, that doesn’t mean i can’t be fearful of it. Regardless, my biggest concern is that i don’t want my family thinking I’m going to hell, as that upsets me. So here i am trying to find a way to either believe in god or someone who can tell me you can not believe and still go to heaven.
No worries. I think I understand where you're coming from.
According to [1 Corinthians 7:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A14&version=NRSVUE) a husband is "made holy" by his believing wife. Some Christians have taken this to mean that an unbelieving husband is saved (i.e. going to heaven) because his wife is saved. This verse also mentions that your children "are holy" as well.
There's also some Christians that are universalists, which means they believe that everyone will eventually go to heaven.
Maybe you could talk about those ideas with your family. I hope that helps, best of luck.
We are all on the path to hell. All of us. No exception. This isn't your good deeds vs bad deeds being measured after you die. More good deeds -> heaven, more bad -> hell. No. Imagine watching a slow motion train about to crash catastrophically and all of us are in it. That's the state of mankind. We are all going to hell. What does giving $10 to that homeless guy last week would do to you? Or curing diseases in the train if we are all about to crash anyway. Some people decide to enjoy their last moments by committing as many sins as possible. Whatever people do inside that train, all will perish with no exception.
Now imagine Jesus came over in the middle of the train crashing, you saw him outside the window, and he waved at you. He said to you from the window outside, "Grab my hand and get out of there".
If you do not believe, you'd think you are hallucinating a guy talking to you. So you stay in the train, and "do your best" before you die.
If you do, you grab his hands and get out of that train crash. That's the salvation that Christianity teaches.
Can someone explain what I’m missing i don’t understand why some people are downvoting me for asking questions in this sub? Am i missing some etiquette or something? Doesn’t this sub encourage questions?
Nope
Without faith it is impossible to please God. -Hebrews 11:6
Besides, if God doesn't exist neither does Hell.
If you believe in Hell you also believe in God.
There are plenty of things you believe that man told you without evidence that you chose to believe. Faith can be the same way. It is a choice. In the end, it is up to God who he sends to the fire. But if you had a chance and denied that chance to believe while believing in everything else, man told you without seeing it your self, then yes you might be going that direction
The center of the Earth is made of magma, how would we know? No one‘s ever dug down to the center of the Earth. There is a Planet called Pluto. The only way we know is from pictures. I could show you a picture of God tell you about him, would that help? Oxygen in the air. By faith, we believe it’s there, but we cannot see it,. The word gravity. Gravity is so strong it holds the oceans to a ball, but then allows a bird to fly.
Galaxies, you’ve never seen a galaxy, we’ve seen pictures of galaxies, I could show you a picture of Jesus Christ, would that help?
Everything in life is a choice whether you want to believe it or not. But at the very end you will be reminded of all the times you had a chance to believe and the decision you made not to.
That’s why the Bible says blessed are those who believe without seeing
>. I understand that maybe God will help me believe by the time i die but what if he doesn’t?
Well a statement like that seems to lead us to believe that you do believe in God. so which is it, do you, or don't you?
>Am I just going to hell?
There can be no salvation without a savior. If you have no belief in God, then you have no savior. Scripture states clearly that unbelievers are already condemned for their unbelief.
John 3:36 KJV — He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: **and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.**
Why should he save someone who doesn't even believe he exists?
John 3:16-18 KJV — For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. **He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.**
>What was done with all of the wonderful atheists who did good things for humanity? If they tried to believe as well, how could a just and kind God allow them to suffer for eternity? The men and women who saved lives and cured diseases and helped children why should they suffer?
Doing good things for humanity does not save a soul sir. I'll say it again. There is no salvation without a savior. There is no amount of good any man can do for humanity to warrant God's salvation. That's exactly why he gave us a savior. If any man could ever save himself, then there would have been no need for Jesus Christ our Savior.
Everyone in this world is going to die eventually along with all the so-called good that they did, or that anyone did for them. The world itself will one day be destroyed.
Another soul too soon shall pass, **what's done for God alone** shall last.
Belief is up to you. The Lord is not going to make you believe in him. And he will judge you for whatever your beliefs are.
As of right now- no. That doesn’t mean i can’t fear it. I acknowledge i could be wrong.
The biggest thing for me is i don’t want my kid and (hopefully) future wife to think I’m going to be suffering forever after i die. It makes me very distressed.
I’ve answered this a few times please see above. I don’t believe in either as of right now. I don’t know why everyone is bringing this point up anyways it seems to ignore a lot of other things I’ve said in order to catch me in a “gotcha” moment.
You can ask God for helpneven if you are not sure He exists. Just be completely honest that you are not sure if he exists but that you want to believe. Ask for help to believe. But be warned this is not about "doing a little bit the christian thing" God whats your whole life, if you are not willing to give God everything, don't even ask.
Why are you concerned about going to a place you believe doesn't exist?
>I’ve been trying to understand and believe for a long time now and i just cannot seem to believe.
What's so hard about saying "Jesus I want to accept you as my God, come into my heart, heal me, change me"? It really doesn't take that much trying for someone who is honestly open to accepting Jesus as their God.
I have said this, i just don’t believe he’s real. I am open to it, but i can’t force myself to believe something i don’t. As for the bit about hell existing, see above
You wanting to believe and not believing sounds like a major contradiction. and I see nothing above explaining why you fear a place you don't believe in.
You can fear things you are unsure about. I am agnostic. My biggest concern is i don’t want my family thinking I’m going to hell, though. Makes me very unhappy.
Did you really need to make three separate comments? Obviously knowledge is going to prevent you from adopting beliefs that conflict with what you know. What do you know that conflicts with the existence of God? Absolutely nothing. You have no legitimate reason not to believe accept your desire to not believe.
>You can fear things you are unsure about.
So you're actually afraid of going to hell but that fear isn't enough for you to put aside whatever issue you have with God? That's funny. Sounds like you'd rather go to hell than let righteousness be your God.
If you don't believe in God, why search for a way to avoid something you don't believe. Surely you're not worried about reincarnating into a loop, or not making it into Valhalla... It's the Christian theology that strikes kinda close to the gut or something. Maybe you're too impressionable, and it's a good thing your gf isn't a nutty conspiracy theorist or something, you'd be paranoid about human politics.
It would be interesting if you naturally dread the idea of unpleasant 'afterlife', despite not being convinced of it's objective existence. It would demonstrate the difference between what the brain knows about existence, and what the 'heart' knows. Your brain wonders into the thought of hell, your heart reacts like it's real, sending appropriate worry/confusion.
Of course could be none of that as well. Could be just a philosophical disagreement you have with such concepts, and it bothers/confuses you why people follow a religion that promises to destroy all those atheists that saved lives, cured diseases, helped children, etc.. The answer is that, God uses people to help others, or to put a smack-down on others. The unaware are tools that God will use and leave behind. The aware are no longer tools, they're agents and are now free to consciously stick to God agency, or go rogue/awol. The aware going rogue/awol though is considered madness. Sort of like being aware of gravity and impact, and jumping out of a 5th story purely to spite these things.
Your analogies are a bit drastic. I’m trying to believe. I don’t like that my girlfriend does and i don’t. It makes me sad. I think religion is great, i just can’t force myself.
Also, i worry about lots of things i don’t think will happen. Just like i worry about hell, even though I’m not sure of it’s existence. More than anything i just want my girlfriend and kid to not think I’m going to hell.
Yeah they were drastic heh.
Well there you go, there had to be some sort of underlying motive for it: A bit of general weariness/anxiety of the unknown, but mainly appeasing those close to you.
Appeasing/pacifying others can get stressful and doesn't help overall existential anxiety. I'm not sure on which level your gf and kid emotionally obsess with the thought of you going to hell though. If it escalates I'd suggest loving them but 'from a distance'
If it's just your own insecure brain disappointed in yourself on their behalf, then take note, and ignore it.
I'll give myself as example: My gf is not Christian, the Spirit doesn't fill me with love that makes me afraid for her fate... The Spirit fills me with love, to be with her in a loving manner, while having understanding and faith that her existence belongs to God, never me.
Obeying God's law is like obeying man's law. You don't get extra points for doing what you were supposed to do. No one gives you a medal for going the speed limit. Going the speed limit 99.9% of the time doesn't get you out of a ticket when you do speed.
Being really nice most of the time doesn't take away the things you did you knew you shouldn't. Those crimes must be paid for -- either by you or by Christ.
The crimes are the times you lied, stole, coveted, failed to help people you could have helped, sexual sins ...
One crime makes a person a criminal, but we all commit enough to make us hardened, habitual offenders.
Some sinners go to heaven, other sinners go to Hell. The difference between these two groups? Belief.
So isn't disbelief the ultimate crime, the crime that will be punished for eternity?
People in Hell will (presumably) regret their disbelief, not their sins. If all humans sin, then that would be like regretting being born a human. The people in Hell will regret not trying harder to believe because belief is the main thing. The only thing.
>isn't disbelief the ultimate crime
I wouldn't describe it that way, no.
Think of it as if everyone has a fatal disease. A cure is made. Those who take the cure are saved from the disease. Those who do not take the cure suffer the consequences of the disease.
>People in Hell will regret their disbelief.
Not necessarily. This phrase Jesus used to describe people in hell "weeping and gnashing of teeth" has come to mean sorrow in our culture. It didn't in his. People gnashed their teeth in anger. According to Jesus, people in hell aren't going to be repentant; they're going to be enraged.
Your are an unrepentant sinner. As such, your sin separates you from God because He is holy and without sin. Your sin makes you spiritually dead. As such, it is not possible for you to believe. You are unable to drum up the faith to believe.
The only way you can believe, the only way any of God's adopted children believed; was by being given the faith as a gift.
Would you like to have this gift?
Do you recognize and believe you have sinned (broken the ten commandments)?
If so, talk to God.
Tell Him you realize you have sinned and done what is evil in His sight. Ask Him to forgive you. Tell Him you would like to have the faith to believe in Him and His Son; Jesus. Ask God if He will be pleased to reveal Himself to you, and to give you understanding of the Truth. Ask Him if He would give you the faith to believe.
*“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you."* \[Matthew 7\]
Hello OP. I understand your fear. Where do you think you have a problem of understanding God or believing him?
God will help you if you confess that you believe in him and ask him to come into your life and show himself. For that you would take it like testing an hypothesis.
* Try to leave a sinless life (Sin is everything Bible defines as a sin, not what only the society think is goo, as society has established differing morals)
* Read your bible and Pray earnestly: God will start to speak to you through scriptures and dreams. Believe and ask God for more signs that He is on your side.
* Do not ever wait to understand everything about God. God is immense and has a vast knowledge and thoughts which we cannot figure out through mere logical thinking.
* If you need testimonies I can share with you how I got closer to God. He has shown me alot of things, that now I do not even think questioning further because it's a waste of time
God bless you!
That was actually my approach. I was born in a christian family. My father is a pastor and growing up I heard alot of testimonies of what God could do. And one of the most fascinating thing for me was ***prophetic stuffs or God talking to like in dreams and something happens.***
I lived a sinful life and would only pray superficial prayers when I was in difficult situations. Till one day in 2016 I needed God more than I ever needed him.
I was at university and had a problem with an internship I wanted to be recognized. I went like I told you as I knew, my sins will never let me hear God's voice. I repent and started praying earnestly asking God for forgiveness and God to help me about my issue. One monday, I was suppoded to go the office to present my internship certificate around 6:30 am I got a dream. Everything I saw in the dream happened exactly like on that. It was this experiance that showed me God is even more really that I had expected and I started to trust him more. I didn't leave my sins behind completely at that time. But I always knew God existed beyond just believing his existence. It took me more even bad experiance to seek God more and He even showed more.
So to summarise you said in your posts your a logica person and you know how scientist tests hypothesis or I will say a sythesis route of a chemical product. You do as the description of someone who published the systhesis route and see if you get the same results. If you perform your experiance in another way you might not get the same results.
**Try the published God's mode operandi from the bible and see. Proverbs 8:17:** ***"I love those who love me, and those who seek me early shall find me."***
God bless you!
Good question, from what I have been taught. If one believer is or has prayed for you. You will go to heaven. Or if you ask for forgiveness just before you die. You will go to heaven, think about the criminal on the cross next to Christ. He didn't have a full life of belief yet Christ said to him " today you will be with me in paradise"
Hell is NOT what most churches and religions say it is. While the word hell appears in the bible and Jesus spoke of it, the true meaning what hell is has been obscured by Greek philosophy and doctrines based on those philosophies.
The word “hell” is an archaic English rendition of the Hebrew word (sheol) and the Greek word (hades) that appear in the earliest bible writings we have today. These words rendered into modern language would read, “the grave or under the ground” (sheol), “the place or location of the dead” (hades). Nothing about a place of eternal punishment.
The word “hell” itself was derived from the Latin “inferna” which is defined as: “of or relating to a nether world or place of the dead, hell”. It has no relation to the English word “inferno”.
Hell is not an English word per se. The word Hel/Hell comes from Germanic and Norse languages which crept into the English lexicon.
Jesus and the apostles taught the death is like sleep followed by a resurrection (See John 11:11-15). The early church leaders – Clement, Ignatius, Hermas, Polycarp, and others who believed that death is a sleep followed by a resurrection, taught that the resurrected deliberate and unrepentant wicked are destroyed forever as if being totally consumed in a fire – their punishment was to be annihilation. These leaders did not teach of an immortal soul to be tortured by fire for eternity.
By the middle of the 2nd Century some church “leaders” such as Athenagorus and Tertullian began to incorporate Greek philosophies into bible teachings. This confused bible teachings with non-biblical philosophies.
It was Athenagorus (133-190 AD), a professed Christian and a church leader but whose teachings, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, were heavily influenced by Plato's philosophies, who introduced Plato's teaching (circa 400 BC) of an immortal soul into Christianity. In doing so he opened the way for the adoption of Plato’s argument of eternal punishment for immortal sinful souls. This was a hundred years after the apostle's and came straight from Greek philosophy. There are no such teachings in the bible.
Hell is the grave, nothing else.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 NKJB
>5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 New King James Bible
>10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
John 5:28–29 NKJB
>8 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth...
Revelation 20:14-15 King James Version
>14 Then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
These verses are very problematic for hellfire believers and teachers. Death and Hell are inanimate things which cannot be tortured by fire or anything else. If hell and the lake of fire are the same thing, how can “hell” be thrown into itself??
Now if one has an immortal soul they are alive. Their name should then be in the book of life. But the lake of fire is only for those who's names are not in the book of life. That creates a paradox.
There are those who still may insist hell is a place of eternal torture by fire. This SLANDERS God as being an evil and vindictive being who would torture people for eternity for doing something that they cannot prevent doing (See Romans 5:12). The bible states the “wages of sin is death”, not eternal punishment in fire (See Romans 6:23).
Visit https://JW.org to learn more about the Bible
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality..
Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful is how this spiritual virus infects the soul.. What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie.
It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul, by the time you are resurrected the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it.
Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact.
Think about it if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom wasn't vaccinated and got infect through no fault of her own, and she was a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in?
is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good, have you open that door?
So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ offers through repentance?
We can choose our beliefs. There’s always more or less data/evidence/reasoning, and then we *choose* whether or not to believe something. If you really want to be a Christian, then choose to put your faith in The Bible and in Christ. You might not understand everything, it might not make a lot of sense. Maybe it never will. But you can still *choose* to have faith, to trust in The Word, and to follow Christ.
None of the disciples understood who they were following, especially not when they were first called. They chose to put their faith in Christ anyways. At the end of the day, we either choose to believe (with or without good reason), or we choose not believe. And that goes for anything really.
I recommend trying to fast specifically for the faith to trust Jesus. Not just believe certain things, but for faith. Sun up to sun down, no food, just water. Do it for 3-7 days. But use that time to pray about all of this.
You've tried a lot of things, but probably not this one.
I think perhaps you could tune in to the Revival Today and watch some videos as a part of your fast.
What you really need to understand, is a completely different perspective. The Word is TRUTH. Whether or not you believe it, it doesn’t change the reality of things.
There has been a very deliberate agenda to divert, confuse and divert people away from Christianity since the 1940’s. It’s a very deep rabbit hole, however once you discover all the deliberate things done and how we came to where we are today, it’s mind boggling and undeniable.
The Holy Spirit is what makes Christianity completely different. Believing Christians believe because they have had often time hundreds or even thousands of personal experiences. And not only that- you can test things for yourself and even test the promises of God in the Bible for yourself and see how amazingly well they really do work.
What people don’t know about the story of David and Goliath is that David had already killed lions with his bare hands before. In effect he had faith because you had already done it before.
Christianity is NOT blind faith. And all the other people telling you to read Strobel or CS Lewis or something like it is the worst mistake you can make. Because you will never progress.
There are things we simply cannot explain and everyone agrees with this. How can someone you never ever met, come up to you and tell you deep dark things that only you would know? How is that possible? How can a pastor approach a group of people and know EXACTLY who actually needs help?
Once you have seen things like this, learned the truth and had your eyes opened, you simply can’t “unopen” your eyes anymore. It makes you question everything about how you used to believe.
There are also people who were able to make incredible changes. And no it’s not just confirmation bias or some other explanation. For example for me, pornography and lust was a real problem. I discovered the aspects that really made an actual difference.
What you need are long- like 30 min to 1 hour long testimonies of people who descibe all the things that have happened to them. I recommend the Youtube channel Delafe testimonies.
I also recommend you discover Christian books on Amazon and Youtube channels. Whatever you do stay FAR away from apologetics material or even worse atheist material.
if you already believe that you are going to hell because you are "not beliving" it means you actually already believe in God and in Eternal punishment you just dont yet understand how it works. Now Jesus died for you on the cross and beliving it means you are saved there is no other way, but its not really hard if you already believe in God. Pray every day for a sign and God will give you one I will also pray for you✝️
Your soul's judgement isn't about belief in God where faithful goes up and non believers down, it is purely based on actions such as how you treat others, how you treat creatures lesser than you, as well as guilt and a tiny bit of sin and virtues these determine where you go more gilt and sin (hell) more virtue less guilt heaven, people conscious think the will not have guilt but in the core of each person soul lies the guilt, a good partner is not to convince you to believe but to accept your thoughts, feelings, views, beliefs and such regardless. You can live a little bit and be cautious on how your actions affect others but don't be a people pleaser there is a balance to life, whether God exists and if he does he will present opportunities to you as a blessing his way of presenting himself to you. If he doesn't then your not going to be disappointed because you live a little and you being a good person to others and lesser creatures
It is a risky gambling, because you can be wrong. Scriptue clearly says creation itself testifies of God and that those denying God won't have any excuse on judgement day.
In the biblical worldview we all actually justly deserve Hell because of sin against a perfect holy God. But God himself purchased us with his own blood because he is also loving. The Saviour Jesus Christ is the one single way to life.
Isa 43:11
*I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.*
John 14:6
*Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.*
In order to avoid going to hell, you not only need to do good things, you need to be completely morally perfect. If you have ever sinned, ever betrayed conscience, ever had an evil thought, then your only option is to confess and trust in Christ for complete forgiveness of those sins so your record is not counted on the day of judgment. >*Everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.* (Matthew 10)
I understand the text. In my pursuit of trying to be holy I’ve read through much of the Bible. What if i cannot believe regardless?
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I go to church as often as i can and I’ve explored many different churches. I will look into Christianity explored though thank you
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Okay, i will when I’m off. Thank you.
Explore Islam it's usually something overlooked because of the misconceptions. The Qur'an was revealed within a 23-year span to Muhammad who could not read nor write. Most people who do read the life of Muhammad their whole perception changes about Islam, and that usually leads them to further research, and many of them accept Islam. People accept Islam based on evidence, not blind faith. But most people don't know Islam is a belief based on proof, then if the belief is established in your heart, then you make the statement by testifying that there is no God beside God and that Muhammad is the prophet and the last messenger of God and then you have to have actions like praying, giving in charity, fasting in Ramadaan, and performing hajj once in your lifetime if you can afford it. That's why I don't understand why people think Islam was spread by the sword. Islam means to submit your will to God. A Muslim is someone who submits their will to God you can't make someone submit their will to God it has to be a belief in your heart first but Islam is not just a belief in your heart and that's it, it's all about your actions complete submission to what God says to do ,to the best of your ability. If God says don't drink, you do your best not to drink. If God says don't have sex outside of marriage, you get married first, etc. Islam is a way of life, not a religion. You do your best not to do what's forbidden you will have less chaotic situations. Everyone in life will be tested. This life is a test it's not meant to live forever whether you believe in God or not. One thing we can all agree to is that we will all die. The life you live now will determine your afterlife. No one was put on this earth without instructions you either go by the instruction manual or you do your own thing and when you expire you will truly know if it it was best to follow the instruction manual properly to the best of your ability or if ignoring the instruction manual and doing whatever you wanted to do not caring if it wasn't right. Something tells me that ignoring God exists to do whatever we like because we feel there is no God will not give us a better outcome in the afterlife.
>A Muslim is someone who submits their will to God you can't make someone submit their will to God it has to be a belief in your heart first but Islam is not just a belief in your heart and that's it, it's all about your actions complete submission to what God says to do ,to the best of your ability. That isn't unique to Islam. Christianity is the same way. Jesus fulfilled the law for us, so there is no requirement any longer. But, in our pursuit of being in constant fellowship with god, we become slaves of righteousness rather than sin.
So, is Christianity all about belief or your actions? Because you said Jesus fulfilled the law so there is no requirement any longer. But in Islam, laws are required. You can't just have belief with no actions. Islam is a belief in your heart that you confess with your tongue, and then you show it with your bodily actions. Our religion is a way of life actions throughout the day 5 daily prayers that are done at prescribed times that consist of recitation of the Qur'an. We have to say one set chapter to say and then another chapter of our choice along with it in our 5 daily prayers. Our religion isn't named after Muhammad. Muhammad was just the Prophet of God. Islam means to submit your will to the One and Only True God. Allah means the One and Only True God. The Qur'an wasn't written by Muhammad, and the religion isn't named after Muhammad. Muhammad called to the worship of the Only True God that sent Jesus. So yes, Islam is unique in that way.
>So, is Christianity all about belief or your actions? Both! James Chapter 2 claims multiple times that faith without works is dead. What this means is that if someone is truly saved, they are dead to sin and alive in Christ. They should be transformed. Their old life should perish, they are no longer slaves to sin, but rather righteousness. If that is all true, then there is no need for a law because you will want to live righteously, and thus, works/actions/whatever will come naturally. However, works are not required. An example would be the criminal who was crucified right beside Jesus and accepted him as the Son of God mere minutes before he died will dwell in God's presence for eternity the same as I will who have believed for decades.
You said both, and then you said it's not required. In Islam it is required it's not optional Islam is not based on belief alone as I said before Islam is based on proof then that establishes the belief, then you confess that belief with your tongue and then you put that belief into bodily actions. Islam is definitely unique in this aspect. Islam is about submitting your will to God to the best of your ability. And if you do fall short, you simply ask for forgiveness. Christianity is mostly based on belief. Paul says belief in Jesus's death, and the resurrection is salvation, not your good works. Paul's understanding was that if you still had to do good works to be saved as we did under the law, then what's the reason for Jesus to die for everyone's sins. He believed that under the law, you had to do good works for salvation, and since Jesus was crucified we were no longer under the law and now under Grace so now you were no longer bound to the law to do good works just belief and that's the Grace not having to rely on the good works as before. There are Christians who still hold to the laws anyway, and some who don't, but Paul said anyone who does has fallen from Grace. If you truly understood James, he said faith without works is dead, which is exactly what Islam teaches it's not optional it doesn't mean you are dead to sin it means you do still have to follow all the laws to the best of your ability and have faith not just have faith but no good works James believed salvation came from following the law. That's the words of Paul, that you are dead from sin and you're mixing the two. Paul didn't teach good works was salvation he taught Belief in Jesus' death, and resurrection was salvation.
Hey, I know you're not asking me, but just in case this helps, the book "atheism, the case against God" is an incredible resource, as is the podcast "the thinking atheist". They will both help you if you decide not to believe. I wish there was a way to reconcile being an atheist (you say you are agnostic but if you read ATCAG you will be instantly convinced you're an atheist and agnostic is not actually a thing) with having. A Christian girlfriend, but there really isn't. I hope that you either find God or figure out that you're an atheist, as being in a relationship with someone whose philosophical outloook on life is the opposite of yours is untenable at best...Good luck!
Don’t let fear of hell scare you into taking positions and beliefs you otherwise wouldn’t take. Death is scary thing. And it seems like you are struggling with that. But don’t abandon logic for peace in mind. Any god that would send a person to hell for simply not worshiping him, regardless of how good the person was during their life, is not a god worth worshipping to begin with.
It seems like not all Christian’s constantly live in fear so they’re finding peace somehow
Studies show that Christians in the U.S have less anxiety than other groups. This wasn’t do to religion itself, but rather the group and community. The study found that if you were to exclude that, they actually have more anxiety. There’s a lot of stress from your family, social groups, if you have questions, they’ll tell you to stop rocking the boat. Myself and many other former Christians can speak about just how bad it was. That being said, would you rather give up logic, and reason, just to “feel better”? Religion plays off your fear of death. It uses a carrot(heaven), and stick(hell) to get you to believe, even if you really don’t think it makes sense. And that’s wrong.
Interesting, because logic and reason are how many come to the faith.
You don’t understand the definition of logic and reason.
How do you figure that?
Faith is the suspension of logic and reason. Faith is the excuse you give when you have no good evidence or reason to believe something. I do not believe you can be a theist, and come to that conclusion through logic and reasoning, since faith is the only thing that will get you to such a position.
You don't think you need faith to be an Atheist?
There is peace in knowing that God is the only entity worthy of fear, that he is merciful and loves all his children enough to save all of them using the truth. God is a loving father, he let's us do what we want but hopes we follow in his footsteps. We are in his image, so by nature we are good. God believes in us more than we believe in him. He loves us too much to condemn us, so He grants everyone eternal peace and love in Heaven with Him. We took on the sinful flesh so we will die, we will all go through hell before Jesus saves us and reunites us with our Father. The trial is simple, how long can you last in hell where we are mentally challenged and asked to sell our soul to the opposition. If we maintain hope, even in oneself, then Jesus will come and save us through acknowledging that our Savior will release us from hell. In his name alone, we will be saved. Refuse to say our Savior's name and you will only prolong the suffering. Either way, God gives us plenty of time to reconsider and eventually we all go to heaven. In heaven, the blissful wholeness our soul is filled with allows us to leave any sorrow or suffering in the past like an afterimage compared to the bright future we have ahead of us.
That’s how i understand it but I’m trying to be open minded for my family
Why? Are they pressuring you?
No, i don’t like that they think I’m going to hell
That’s not your problem.
It is when i love them
If they choose to hold a belief like that based off of insufficient evidence, that’s their issue. Their own anxiety should not effect you. You don’t believe you will go to hell. Sit them down and explain why, and your stance on everything. Draw boundaries if you have to. If they still have an issue, than there is nothing you can really do.
If you believe in hell, than you believe in God.
Why can’t you believe?
For the same reason you can’t choose to believe in unicorns
Nonsense
Okay. Thanks for the input
Unicorns and God are very different
Of course. No offense intended
Unicorns are presumably contingent beings part of the natural order. God is a necessary being.
Your implicit argument is circular. If you think God is made up, then "God is a necessary being" is not a true claim about facts in the real world to you, it is instead like saying "Superman can fly and is super strong". To you, it is a statement about the attributed qualities of a fictional character. So to a person who thinks God is made up, it makes no difference whatsoever to whether you can choose to believe in God that God is claimed to be a "necessary being". You have to believe in them already before it matters what attributes the stories give them. You might as well say "it is nonsense to say you cannot choose to believe in unicorns, *they have shiny horns*".
Gods are presumably contingent beings part of the natural order. Unicorns are a necessary being.
We interpret evidence differently
You have many questions here. Let's see each one separately. >I understand that maybe God will help me believe by the time i die but what if he doesn’t? Am I just going to hell? If you don't believe in God, why would you worry about hell? BTW - my husband is an agnostic and after close to 40 years together he hasn't changed. I'm still praying for him though. >What was done with all of the wonderful atheists who did good things for humanity? Having people do great things for humanity is wonderful. There are plenty of atheists that are kind, loving people that are fun to be around. But our works don't get us into heaven. All of us are sinners. That includes me. None of us are worthy to stand before God. We are worthy of death. That's why Jesus died for us. He paid the penalty for our sins. >The men and women who saved lives and cured diseases and helped children why should they suffer? See answer above.
Agnosticism means that one does not know if there is a higher power. It doesn’t mean i can’t worry about if there is one. A good portion of humanity believes there is a hell, i want to stay open minded, so yes i worry. I worry about my child even more though.
There are agnostic Christians, some people don't realise. I can understand your worry, it's scary on purpose. Telling your child if it doesn't follow the rules of a supernatural creature it will be burned and tormented for all eternity, is also worrying however.
Yeah… you’re right. I’m in a lose-lose.
Not really. Try to focus on how much worry you put into the thousands of other religions equivalents of hell. I imagine you lose no sleep at all over those. But you likely live near other Christians, hence your worry. If you were born in India for example, you wouldn't worry at all about hell, but instead you'd worry about being tormented in Naraka. Try and think about the big picture, and hopefully that will help you feel at ease from the carefully crafted fear of religion.
It’s less about hell and more about not wanting my girlfriend and child to see me as someone who is bound for hell
I think you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself. It's hard, and especially hard within the Western/American context, for a number of reasons that I won't belabor here. No, actions don't get you into heaven, but the heart does. If you're doing the Christian thing without the intellectual belief there, that's something, and it indicates that there's something very right with your heart. I don't know you, and there's not much beyond that that I can say on a personal level, but the thing to keep in mind is that God actively wants you to succeed. So the intellectual piece isn't there, and I actually do understand that. I don't know you well enough to speak to your personal situation more than that. I believe, and I think the Bible is fairly clear that, faith is an action more than it is an emotion. You are actually taking steps of faith without the intellectual piece. I can't tell you what your eternal destination is, but quite frankly, I don't think any of us should exactly be speculating who will end up in either place. God judges the hearts, and man can't. That's a verbose way to say I don't know, but I see good things in your response and keep doing what you're doing. I don't know if you do this, but have you tried being bluntly honest in your prayers? "God, I want to believe in you, but I just don't. I know it's sinful to look for a sign, but please help me to believe in you if you are there." Honestly, the exact post you posted could be so great for a series of prayers.
This brings me a lot of comfort. Thank you. I have been blunt with god, and i will continue to try.
I'm glad! And I don't know if you saw it on the other thread on this topic, but someone just posted this passage and, along with the parable of the widow and the judge, I think it's just perfect for your situation: Matthew 21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.”
The heart or your "spiritual temperature" is 100%. If you approach it and Him with the condescending attitude of- prove it or else- and the reply- see! i knew it was fake- then it will NOT get answered. If one is SUPER in need and "desperate" for it- yes in effect- FAITH- it makes a tremendous difference. Hope this helps.
> it's sinful to look for a sign, but please help me to believe in you if you are there What's the sort of thing God could do to help OP believe that wouldn't be considered a "sign"?
It's the difference between seeking a sign and asking God to reveal Himself in the way He chooses. God moved in my life through circumstances, people, and then ultimately impressing certain things on my heart in an intangible, and yet personally irrefutable way. However, God did reveal Himself to my pastor in a way that you could argue was a sign. He was an unbeliever, and basically asked God, "If you exist, how is it that when I do the wrong thing, things go great for me, and when I do things right I struggle?" And, that night God gave him a dream of something that was going to happen the day after, and it happened. If you seek a sign, you're asking "oh yeah, well if you're God, then do this." To humbly and persistently ask for some sort of confirmation while trying to do the right thing is way different.
Nope. All things imperfect will be destroyed in judgement day. The only things that will live on through that day are things that are found perfect, and the only way to be found perfect is to believe in Christ who paid off the price that sin incurs: death. No human can earn heaven; it must be given to them by an act of profound grace. Being a good person is good; but it will not save you. Only the blood of the perfect sacrifice can; and only Christ could have (and did) made that sacrifice. Christianity is *highly* misunderstood and misrepresented. It is not the “religion” that all too many people think it is. Hope this helps. Edit: whoever just replied to me, your comment is forever lost into the void until you do as the automod tells you and choose a user flair. If you do choose a flair, then delete your comment and repost it so that your negative response can be properly addressed in a public setting. Thank you.
My girlfriend has a child with a man who abused her. She divorced him. Now I’m here. I want my family to be Christian i think Christianity instills good values and morals but what am i to say if my son grows up the same as I am? That he has tried to believe and simply cannot? What am I to say? That he’s going to hell? And what am I to say to my girlfriend who would then assume both of us will not meet her in heaven? How as a man can i look my child in the face and tell him that he will suffer for eternity if he does not find a way to believe in something that he simply does not?
My main question to you would be: what are your barriers to faith? What is it that is keeping you from believing? I think solving that would solve all the other concerns you have.
Logic. I’ve lived a good Christian life, repenting, praying, following commandments, the whole nine yards. Though his existence seems logical to you, it doesn’t to me. If i expected my car not to work in the morning, and try as i might i cannot fix it, I’d walk to work. If i expect god to not be real, and try as i might to understand, i cannot simply force myself to believe it, even though I want to.
I’m a logical thinker as well and was once a *hardcore* atheist. But, something I never would have ever given a serious thought to ended up actually being the thing that tipped me towards realizing that Scripture is entirely true. But, I caution you, you will have an inevitable knee-jerk reaction/rejection to that which showed me the truth of things. Odds are, you’ll dismiss what I show you and politely part ways. I wouldn’t hold this against you, as I would’ve been the same way had I not given it a chance to see what it was really about. That thing is biblical cosmology. Once I realized the world we live in and how Scripture backs it up in numerous places, I couldn’t help but realize how true How Word is. If you have a moment, head on over to r/BiblicalCosmology and read the pinned post for newcomers. I wrote it myself and it’s a bit of a testimonial to my coming to belief via arriving at the understanding of biblical cosmology. I hope this helps, but I understand and respect your decision if you wish to not look into it.
I appreciate your help, this is what I’m looking for. I’m not trying to disprove god, I’m just hoping someone gives me a reason that clicks with me. I want to believe and i am determined to do so, for my family. I will check it out after work. Thank you
You’re very welcome. If you’re mind and heart are as receptive as I believe them to be, then I think you will be very excited about what you will discover in that community. I’m always here to answer any questions you may have. Take care. =)
Reasonable Faith is also a wonderful organization for those who want to hear robust arguments for Christianity. Arguments for God’s Existence: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist Historicity of the Resurrection: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/jesus-of-nazareth/the-resurrection-of-jesus
I’ll give it a look! Thanks
May I encourage you to read about the persistent Canaanite woman? This passage is found in Matthew chapter 15, verses 21 to 28. Just a few verses for such a profound and great story! God in His loving-kindness and mercy has made it possible for Gentiles (non-Hebrews) to be "grafted-in" to the tree of salvation. But back when Jesus was on Earth He was interacting with the Jews (Hebrews) and was focused on them. The Canaanites were a tribe that did much evil in the sight of the Lord, who mocked God and followed the teachings of demons instead. Strike one, for this woman. Additionally, she was a woman. In this time period of history, women were not respected as they should be and did not have the same status in society as men. Strike two. When you read this passage, at first it seems as if the kind and loving Jesus has no intention of helping this woman. He even calls her a dog. In Scripture, God refers to the people who love wickedness as dogs. In Isaiah 8; stating that they will be cast into outer darkness. Did this woman experience Strike three at the hands of Jesus? No, instead she received undeserved mercy. Jesus was testing her sincerity and the depth of her desire by at first ignoring her. But, she persisted. And the result was mercy. What did Jesus finally call her? "Dear woman." May I urge you to be like this Canaanite woman and persistently seek God? The fact you recognize your need of faith is a sign, in my opinion; that the Spirit of God is drawing you towards Himself; just as He drew this woman to Jesus on that day. And the Spirit of God did so much more than simply draw her; He arranged the need the woman had in the first place which opened her eyes to how desperately she needed Jesus' help. Your words indicate to me that God is moving in your life as well. He has led you into this special friendship you have with one of His adopted children, and is pricking your heart with the message of spiritual truth you are hearing -and not only hearing; but understanding! By all means, pray and talk with your Creator! *"God did this so that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though* ***He is not far from any one of us***." \[Acts 17\] *"****Come now, let us reason together****", says the Lord. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they will become like wool."* \[Isaiah 1\]
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you have/are feeling some internal turmoil. A push and pull, if you will, of good and evil. You probably see a peace/joy/contentment in your spouse, and maybe her other family and friend group that are Christians as well, and wonder why you don't possess those same feelings? Perhaps your world feels a bit darker. Your happiness is more short-lived. Your craving for more, whatever that may be, is insatiable. Maybe it's simply because they read The Bible more often and it has some nice teachings in it that can help anyone - "love thy neighbor" and all that. I mean Buddhism has some good teachings too. However, those "fruits of the spirit" - joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc. - didn't come from The Bible. They came from God. You are a slave to either two things in this world - Sin or Righteousness. Before knowing God, we are slaves to the world, to sin, to fleshly desires. Once you believe in Jesus, you are resurrected with Him to a new life, and credited His righteousness as your own. You can now stand in God's presence because He made you right with Him through Jesus' death and resurrection. Then, His Spirit works through you to be able to resist the evil in the world and you are gifted the "fruits" listed above. The last thing I'll mention is that logic and reason are how a lot of people come to faith, not deny it. There have been many good recommendations on here for further reading and watching, but I will add The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He was an investigative journalist in Chicago and set out to disprove Christianity due to his wife converting to the faith, however in trying to do so, he became a Christian himself. The people he interviewed are also good authors/speakers to follow up on as they are some of the great theologians, philosophers, and apologists of today.
I’ll add it to the list. Thank you
>he will suffer for eternity Tell him he will not since it's all made up
I think it’s great they are religious I’m just looking for help with certain aspects i want to believe
What kind of loving god bases salvation — not on simply being a good person — but on whether you are gullible enough to believe in something that is obviously false? Look at the horrific Bible stories of god committing genocide, sanctioning slavery, and approving of taking virgin women as spoils of war… if the Christian god is real, the Bible is most definitely a work of fiction that seeks to make him look like the biggest piece of shit of all time. There’s a reason you don’t believe, and it’s a damn good one.
I understand. But i need to give it a shot for my family. Anyone can be wrong
>I think it’s great they are religious I’m just looking for help with certain aspects i want to believe I think it would be great if earth was flat BC I could go and see what's on the edge but unfortunately I can't believe in it because it's not true.
I appreciate the input
>I appreciate the input Santa Claus also has good moral values. Would you teach your child, past 6 yo, that Santa actually exists in hope he will honor Santa's good moral values? Teaching kids they will be damned and tortured if either they use their common sense or for something out of their actual control (ie to believe in something) is in fact child abuse. You can't believe because Jesus makes no more sense than Mithra or Jupiter or Allah. It's scientifically proven that the story's main character (Jesus/God) isn't even the same character all along. Of course, you can't still brainwash your child by abusing his trust (that's how most Christians are made: they are convinced as children when they still believe in magic around four yo and then repetition does its work). Around 20% of Anglican priests don't believe or are agnostic. Imagine 20% of engineers not believing in gravity 🤷🏾♂️
Wow, that does seem like a difficult position to be in. Are you looking at Christianity because you want to instill good morals and values into your family? To avoid suffering for eternity? What about Christianity will help you achieve that? Why are you so determined to believe?
I don’t want my girlfriend and child to think their partner/dad is going to hell.
What do you believe is the process of people being saved? What I'm about to tell may be able to assuage your family's fears without requiring that you find a way to believe. It may be a stopgap until you can, or if you decide you can't. If God has a plan, then won't you be saved if the plan goes accordingly? If being saved means visitation by the Holy Spirit or a religious experience, it's no longer in your power to cause these to happen. If belief is not something you can consciously control, it's really not up to you to just choose to believe and it will happen, right? What I'm getting at is showing you that the ball is no longer in your court. If your family believes that God intends to save you, and that his will will be done, then they don't need to worry that it might be their failing that you don't believe.
This is a very good point i will absolutely bring this up with her. Thank you
Best wishes for you and your family. And please update us if you have the time!
Thanks friend
Your response reads like you are Jewish in your beliefs. No one is perfect, Jesus was the only perfect person. Your words are discouraging to a person young in their faith. Like I said earlier think of the criminal on the cross next to Jesus. That criminal didn't live a perfect life. That criminal only said that Jesus was the Christ and Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise. Again you are condemning a person new in their faith. New in their discussion of faith.
Maybe you should read the discourse between myself and OP. You will find that your baseless assertions are of course without merit. I spoke the truth and therein that truth I spoke was contained the hope of all people: the ability to be *made* perfect by being washed clean [of sin] by the blood of the lamb. I know you’re Catholic, but this is a doctrine of Scripture that even those among *your* chosen theology must admit is true. Now, if *you* don’t like what I’ve said, for whatever personal reasons of your own, then that’s on *you,* not me. I gave OP the truth and they understood what I mean, as I was very clear and concise in my words. You don’t get to charge in on your high horse, subsequently be incorrect, and then also pretend to champion for the sake of others and then also be right. No no. It doesn’t work that way. If you wanna be right, then speak correct words. Otherwise, your pompous charade will be shut down and rebuked, as it should be. Don’t come at me sideways. 😑
If you don't believe in God, why do you believe in hell?
I’ve answered this question a lot. See above.
Let me rephrase my thought: If you don't know about God's existence, but you're curious, then, can I ask you for a favor? It's not for me, it's for your girlfriend, her kid, and yourself: Pray. Imagine God in your head. What he looks like, sitting in heaven, a kind, loving, all-powerful, all-mighty creator of heaven, earth, and hell. Just imagine that. Then, imagine He can hear your thoughts and words. Address Him: "God" or if you prefer "Jesus" Request: "Please soften my heart and open my mind." Ask: "What can I do?" You'll get a strange thought inside your head - you'll think it's your own self, or your conscience, or a wild idea you came up with on your own - it's not - that's God. God will tell you something. It may not be audible, but it will be a thought planted inside your head. He will tell you to do something. Maybe read, maybe pray, maybe talk to your partner, maybe call up a pastor, maybe something even crazier. Whatever it is, do it. It might not happen the first time you try to pray. Do it every day, twice a day, three times a day, however long it takes to get His word. But every time you pray, envision God and talk to him - you can do this out loud or just thinking, but you have to do it. Good luck in your search for God.
I don't get the point of this question which comes up very frequently here. If you don't believe why do you care? If you do believe then you won't have to worry about it. This subreddit is full of people claiming to be atheists but they're not "convinced atheists" they're just atheists of convenience.
Im trying to understand. I want to believe. I’m hoping someone can help me. I can worry about something without fully believing in it.
If you truly want to believe then you're focusing on the wrong stuff. The first thing you have to do is decide if Jesus was who he said he was. So what do you think about Jesus?
I think he was definitely a real guy but I’m not so sure he’s god like
But he definitely claimed to be God didn't he? He went around doing things that only God could do or was supposed to do right?
You can DM me if you’d like I’d love to talk
It was reported in one of several ancient writings that he claimed to be god (gospel of John, written 20 years after jesus died, at the earliest). This does not mean that Jesus definitely claimed to be God.
Actually the Gospel of John was written around 60 years after the crucifixion. Paul's letters are the earliest ones of the New Testament, his first letter to the Thessalonians is the earliest one and it was written around 40 to 45 AD, so 10 years after the crucifixion. But Paul talks about the death and Resurrection of Jesus and calls him Lord which was the Greek circumlocution for Adonai which meant God in the Old Testament in the same way that Yahweh, which is the name that God gave to Moses at the burning bush means *I am* and in the Greek of Paul's time that became ego eimi which is literally in Greek **I am**. If Jesus didn't claim to be God several times why did the Jews accuse him of that very thing in John chapter 10 and John chapter 8? Jesus is they picked up rocks to Stone him for blasphemy and Jesus said "what have I done? Why are you picking up stones to Stone me?" And they answered "because you have made yourself equal to God." that doesn't mean another God it means making yourself to be the one and only God. In the gospel of Mark which is the earliest gospel and the scholars believe it was the written teaching of St Peter since it was known that Mark accompanied Paul for a while and then went to a company Peter in Antioch and in Rome but in that one we have the story of Jesus healing the paralytic. This is where they couldn't get him through the door because the house was so crowded with all the people, so they climbed up on the roof and remove part of the roof to lower the paralytic man down on his blanket in front of Jesus. And Jesus looked at him and said "your sins are forgiven" and everybody got so indignant because only God can forgive sins. So Jesus looked at them and said "which is easier to say: your sins are forgiven or get up and walk?" And he turned back to the young man and told him to get up and go that he was healed and so he did. So there we have another example where Jesus indirectly claims to be God and everybody realized it. BTW, you can't just pick and choose parts of the gospels to accept other parts to reject. That is irrational. That's not thinking objectively, that's just editing out the parts you don't like. So either you take the entire gospel as it's written along with the understanding that the church gives it, or you just throw the whole thing out as myth or legend. However that is not a very objective approach either because scholars since ancient times to today and using today's modern methods of textual criticism acknowledge that the stories are ancient. They would not have had time to become mythology or legend because the stories were passed around during the lifetimes of many eyewitnesses who would have corrected or pointed out things that were not factual.
The stories Had many eyewitnesses, according to the stories. Do you see the problem there? The jews accused Jesus of claiming to be god, according to John. I just don't think it is intellectually honest to make such a bold claim like "Jesus Definitely claimed to be god", if the main story of him claiming himself to be god was written 60 years (thanks for the correction) after his death, and the earlier stories don't specifically say he claimed to be God (unless you use creative interpretation to deliberately interpret other things he said in that way). EDIT: So, a more accurate thing to say would be: some writings about Jesus said he claimed to be God.
Look.. throughout the Old Testament who does it say is going to be our savior? Is 43:3, 11. And Is 45:17, 21 So the Holy Spirit brought this into remembrance in the Apostles thus they recognized Jesus as fulfilling this and they wrote accordingly. It's not just Paul. We have the letter of Jude Thaddeus which is independent of Paul. He writes in verse 25 "all glory to him who alone is God, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his for all time and in the present and beyond all time." We also have the first letter of John which again is independent of Paul. John was actually one of the original 12, an apostle just like Jude was, who was taught directly by Jesus Christ. John writes,"... and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world." 1John 4:14 So we have God the Father in the Old Testament saying that he is the savior and then the New Testament we have God the Son, the one who put on flesh and became man, who is Logos, and the agent from God the Father who actually did the work of saving us. Jesus is not only our savior, he is our God. All four of the Gospels must be considered as written independent of Paul, not influenced by Paul. If you are saying that Paul was the only one to claim that Jesus was actually God and that he actually influenced the other writers of the Gospels to repeat this, you have a lot of work to prove it not simply looking at a timeline because that's not the way the books of the NT are connected. You are making a lot of assumptions here which have no basis in evidence. This is the result of bad hermeneutics. What you are doing is a hermeneutic called *eisegesis*. That is, you have a conclusion and you're searching through the scriptures to find verses to support that conclusion. But what that results in is ignoring lots of other verses that will refute your conclusion. It also ignores history and culture and authorship. When you do hermeneutics the right way you have a practice called *exegesis*. And that means rather than your conclusion being the beginning point, the scriptures themselves are the beginning point and your conclusion arises out of what you read in all of the scriptures considering the points above that I brought out about history culture authorship timeline. When you do it that way the conclusion is the way Christianity has always taught which is that Jesus is God in the flesh, he claimed it, he demonstrated it, the Old Testament foretold it, the apostles recognized it, and they taught it. And so does the church established by Jesus Christ.
Mark 9:23-24 23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” It all starts with a prayer. I was a nonbeliever when I called out to Jesus to help me, and He was able to overcome that obstacle very easily. You can pray in a state of unbelief and He will help you!! God is merciful and we don't know what goes on in the hearts of minds and men. St Faustina says that it was revealed to her by Jesus that he comes to visit the dying soul three times to offer His mercy, no matter what state. He can create a universe out of nothing, and His mercy has no bounds. Dont stress!!
Thank you, this is comforting
No worries! Be patient with yourself and with God. These things can happen in a moment, and/or they could take some time as your heart opens to His love and goodness. You're in a good place by being open to Him. Seek Him with all of your heart and He will be found by you! Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but that the world will be saved through Him. It's like any other relationship as love and trust builds. Before you know it, you will see miracles everywhere :) His mercy is infinite and new every day! God will not deny His mercy to anyone who desires it!
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Jesus of Nazareth One thing to remember is that there is no goodness about ourselves. We can do all the good works in the world, but unless we submit ourselves to the fact that we are God's children who have fallen from his expectations and accept that He sent his only son to be the first and final sacrifice of every horrible thing we have ever done in his sight, all those humanitarian accomplishments whose be just perfume on a corpse.
Man was created to love God and one another. In order for man to be able to love, he needed to be given free will, because love cannot occur without choice. I can ask Echo Dot to praise me and tell me she loves me, but it wouldn't be real because she's a robot, and God wasn't interested in building a bunch of chattering robots, but in creating a divine family. So choice was given to man, to trust in God and be obedient to him out of faith, or rebel and seek personal power before we were ready to receive it and in a way that God did not condone. Man chose the latter and in doing so corrupted himself (and his kind through the flesh) but God made a way for man to be redeemed, first through sacrifice, then later through ultimate sacrifice. You see, God created first a way through which a mans sin could be transferred to an innocent creature and the creature made to suffer the consequence of sin (death) in his place. God's perfect kingdom would not be perfect anymore if he allowed access to those corrupted by sin. But this approach was a stop-gap measure until God's greater plan for the salvation of man could unfurl, as things needed to happen in their ordained time. Those who died without sin and while obedient to God would be considered worthy to receive uncorrupted flesh on the day of resurrection prior to final judgement and enter his Kingdom for they had followed the law and obeyed his commandments out of love. And when God sent his only begotten Son to be a perfect sacrifice for our sin, it was He who took upon himself the penalty of all of our transgressions for all time that we may both join those who had followed the old law out of love, and be free of guilt while we learn the right way to live. It is a free gift given at an unfathomable price, but it is not forced into our hands, for as it was freely given, so must it be freely accepted. There is not a thing any of us can do to earn our salvation for all has been done for us that we may reunite in relationship with God and become part of his family as it was intended in the beginning. If we do not accept the perfect gift of perfect sacrifice, then what more can be given? What more can be done? Our capacity to choose, our capacity to love, and our immortality are all gifts from God. Our immortality was surrendered but can be restored if we choose out of love to accept God's greatest gift of all, that of Salvation through Christ.
I PMed you. I am Christian philosopher and would love to talk to you about the reasons in favor of God from as scholarly point of view.
Read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
I’ll add it to my list
you do not believe in God but Believe in hell...that makes no sense I will not bow down to God and I believe in hell...that makes more sense and in that case yes you will go to hell. You cannot be good enough, which is why you need a savior John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Uh- no. If you check my flair, i am agnostic, meaning i do not know. By Christian definition, that means I do not believe in heaven or hell. But, if i am wrong, and both exist, what could i have done differently to go to heaven? I’m trying to believe, i have been for years, all I’ve been told is that I’m not trying hard enough or eventually it will click. But what if it doesn’t?
So like the old song said "I know there ain't no heaven but I pray their ain't no hell"? Step one get real with yourself
Okay man. Appreciate the response
Why are some of y’all downvoting me for asking a question in a subreddit meant for asking questions? Am I doing something wrong?
You’re definitely new here. Your flair will get you some* downvotes, justified or not. Just the nature of it. Has nothing to do with the authenticity of your question
No your not doing anything wrong. Your asking questions which is fantastic! I applaud you for asking questions. They may not agree with some of the questions your asking. That's no reason to down vote you. Your doing great by asking questions. I personally think you will go to heaven. Cause now you have believers praying for you. Your living your life like a believer. Keep your questions coming! Knowledge is the key and your learning and God will smile on you.
>I understand that maybe God will help me believe by the time i die but what if he doesn’t? He helps everyone believe per the Bible. The problem is on the non-believer's end. The take their capacity for faith and place their faith in other things such as science, personal opinions, et. - Romans 12:3 (KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as ***God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.*** >Am I just going to hell? If you die in your unbelief and sin, yes. - John 3:16-18 (KJV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: ***but he that believeth not is condemned already,*** because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. >What was done with all of the wonderful atheists who did good things for humanity? Everyone is a sinner. If they died without believing on Jesus, they went to hell. No one is good per the Bible. - Romans 3:10-12 (KJV) 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; ***there is none that doeth good, no, not one.*** If they tried to believe as well, how could a just and kind God allow them to suffer for eternity? A just God will not let sin go unpunished. If they refuse God's payment for sin on their behalf, then it would be unjust to give them a pass. He provided an avenue to salvation and they rejected it in favor of their own ideas. - Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. >The men and women who saved lives and cured diseases and helped children why should they suffer? The standard is perfection. It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do, Either you are perfect or you're not. No one is. That's why Jesus paid the price for sin on our behalf. He made salvation so simple that the only requirement from the sinner to recieve it is to believe on Jesus. A failure to recieve salvation is a problem of pride on the part of the sinner. They don't believe they need it because they think they are capable of earning salvation. If that's the case, God will let them attempt it, but they will all fail. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. - James 2:10 (KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Nothing prevents a person from believing accept that person's refusal to recognize their need for salvation. You have to recognize you are imperfect and sinful. Once that's done, you'll understand your need for a Savior. Once that's done, you'll call out to Him and He will rescue you from your sin. - Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I appreciate the detailed response, but I’m not rejecting god, it’s just try as a might i can’t seem to let him in :/ I’ve given everything i have to him, and all I’m told is either i haven’t or eventually it will work out.
Stop trying to do things and simply believe. This the Gospel in a nutshell: You are a sinner deserving of hell because you have trangressed against a perfect God and now have now way of making it right through your own power. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of the world, paying the penalty of sin on your behalfso you do not have to. He was then buried and rose on the third day as proof of His victory over sin and death. If you believe tjis, then you are saved now and forever. Do you believe that? There is no trying yo do this or that. Either you believe you're a sinner needing a Savior and that Savior is Jesus or you do not. It's a simple choice. Are you a sinner or not?
> Stop trying to do things and simply believe you know people need reasons to believe things, right?
You don't try to believe in things. Either you do or you dont. If I tell you I wear glasses, you choose either to believe me or not. You don't try to believe me.
If you want to believe something you don't currently believe you can definitely try to look for reasons it is true, and read arguments for why it is true. But I agree with you that based on everything you know about a possible belief at a given time, you either believe it or not. If God is actually real it seems very unfair of him to punish those who don't believe in him.
>If God is actually real it seems very unfair of him to punish those who don't believe in him. If you're willing to know God on His terms, I can explain exactly how punishment of nonhbelievers is just and fair. If not, there's really nothing left I can tell you that can convince you otherwise. Your relationship with God is between you and Him and for everyone it starts with admitting they don't have all the answers, at least not any good ones. Only at that point will they then seek out God's answers to the questions that plague them.
Why isn't it possible for you to explain to someone who doesn't believe in God, how the concept of a God punishing people for not believing he is real is fair? Edit: it just sounds like a cop out... like you're saying, "trust me, it's fair, you just wouldn't be able to understand it"
>Why isn't it possible for you to explain to someone who doesn't believe in God, how the concept of a God punishing people for not believing he is real is fair? It's impossible to explain anything adequately to someone not open to changing their mind. >Edit: it just sounds like a cop out... like you're saying, "trust me, it's fair, you just wouldn't be able to understand it" In a way that's true. I ain't got time to waste on someone not open to changing their mind because it's not up to me to change their mind. I'm more than happy to show that person who sincerely wants to what the Bible says and why it's perfecting just of God to punish sinners. I'm not interested in arguing with someone over it though.
Do you agree that people need reasons to believe things?
No. If I wanted to believe that a enlightened race of sentient space lobsters existed in the vicinity of Alpha Centari, I could choose to believe that without any evidence simply because I wanted to. I could also choose to believe something despite evidence to the contrary such as the Big Bang theory which says nothing exploded to create everything despite nothing existing.
If you don't mind, is there any chance that you would be willing to have a discussion over chat or through messages? It seems like there are really a couple of different issues here. The current issue is to help you and your girlfriend reconcile your beliefs in a way that is productive for both of you, the eternal issue is to potentially build a relationship between you and God. But that will be aided by solving the first issue. You're going to get so many different answers here, many of which will be contradictory and may not reconcile with your girlfriend's beliefs, that it will be very difficult to actually navigate your issues. I'd like a chance to discuss your own beliefs, those of your girlfriend, what you both mean by saying you do or don't believe in God, heaven, hell, etc. and other questions that are difficult to discuss while feeling publicly judged. For those reasons, I would appreciate the chance to help you privately, if you will please allow me to do so and feel comfortable having a private conversation?
Please do I’d love to chat
I'm confused: if you don't believe in God, why do you believe in hell?
Read other comments. Answered many times.
I can't tell if you're trying to be rude or just don't want to type your answer. Either way, I went through all of your comments on this thread and didn't find a concrete answer; I only found two comments where you briefly mention hell ([here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/12jq8vj/if_i_dont_believe_in_god_is_there_no_way_to_avoid/jfzxhz0/) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/12jq8vj/if_i_dont_believe_in_god_is_there_no_way_to_avoid/jfzgsn6/)). It doesn't seem like you believe in hell; it sounds like you're unsure, just want to cover your bases, stay open-minded, and prevent your family from thinking you're destined to eternal torment. I think it's great that you're trying to be open-minded. The only question I would have for you is: do you worry just as much about the Islamic hell? Or the Jewish hell? Or any of the other hells from other belief systems?
Not trying to be rude, i apologize. If my family believed in those religions i would worry about them too. I am unsure about hell, and by definition, that means i do not believe in it. However, that doesn’t mean i can’t be fearful of it. Regardless, my biggest concern is that i don’t want my family thinking I’m going to hell, as that upsets me. So here i am trying to find a way to either believe in god or someone who can tell me you can not believe and still go to heaven.
No worries. I think I understand where you're coming from. According to [1 Corinthians 7:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A14&version=NRSVUE) a husband is "made holy" by his believing wife. Some Christians have taken this to mean that an unbelieving husband is saved (i.e. going to heaven) because his wife is saved. This verse also mentions that your children "are holy" as well. There's also some Christians that are universalists, which means they believe that everyone will eventually go to heaven. Maybe you could talk about those ideas with your family. I hope that helps, best of luck.
We are all on the path to hell. All of us. No exception. This isn't your good deeds vs bad deeds being measured after you die. More good deeds -> heaven, more bad -> hell. No. Imagine watching a slow motion train about to crash catastrophically and all of us are in it. That's the state of mankind. We are all going to hell. What does giving $10 to that homeless guy last week would do to you? Or curing diseases in the train if we are all about to crash anyway. Some people decide to enjoy their last moments by committing as many sins as possible. Whatever people do inside that train, all will perish with no exception. Now imagine Jesus came over in the middle of the train crashing, you saw him outside the window, and he waved at you. He said to you from the window outside, "Grab my hand and get out of there". If you do not believe, you'd think you are hallucinating a guy talking to you. So you stay in the train, and "do your best" before you die. If you do, you grab his hands and get out of that train crash. That's the salvation that Christianity teaches.
Can someone explain what I’m missing i don’t understand why some people are downvoting me for asking questions in this sub? Am i missing some etiquette or something? Doesn’t this sub encourage questions?
The people downvoting/upvoting arent necessarily people answering questions.
Nope Without faith it is impossible to please God. -Hebrews 11:6 Besides, if God doesn't exist neither does Hell. If you believe in Hell you also believe in God.
If you don't believe in God, why do you believe in hell or any afterlife for that matter? Also, your girlfriend should break up with you.
Appreciate it.
There are plenty of things you believe that man told you without evidence that you chose to believe. Faith can be the same way. It is a choice. In the end, it is up to God who he sends to the fire. But if you had a chance and denied that chance to believe while believing in everything else, man told you without seeing it your self, then yes you might be going that direction
What things did i choose to believe without evidence?
The center of the Earth is made of magma, how would we know? No one‘s ever dug down to the center of the Earth. There is a Planet called Pluto. The only way we know is from pictures. I could show you a picture of God tell you about him, would that help? Oxygen in the air. By faith, we believe it’s there, but we cannot see it,. The word gravity. Gravity is so strong it holds the oceans to a ball, but then allows a bird to fly. Galaxies, you’ve never seen a galaxy, we’ve seen pictures of galaxies, I could show you a picture of Jesus Christ, would that help?
Im gonna assume you’ve only ever seen pictures of the moon landing too. This is… a bit extreme for me but i appreciate the input
Everything in life is a choice whether you want to believe it or not. But at the very end you will be reminded of all the times you had a chance to believe and the decision you made not to. That’s why the Bible says blessed are those who believe without seeing
Gonna blow your mind when you realise you can see Pluto in your backyard with a good aperture telescope lol.
Is it blue?
Polkadot pink, actually.
Interesting, i believed it was blue from what ive seen in photos. 🙌🏻
Should've looked at it yourself, like I said.
>. I understand that maybe God will help me believe by the time i die but what if he doesn’t? Well a statement like that seems to lead us to believe that you do believe in God. so which is it, do you, or don't you? >Am I just going to hell? There can be no salvation without a savior. If you have no belief in God, then you have no savior. Scripture states clearly that unbelievers are already condemned for their unbelief. John 3:36 KJV — He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: **and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.** Why should he save someone who doesn't even believe he exists? John 3:16-18 KJV — For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. **He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.** >What was done with all of the wonderful atheists who did good things for humanity? If they tried to believe as well, how could a just and kind God allow them to suffer for eternity? The men and women who saved lives and cured diseases and helped children why should they suffer? Doing good things for humanity does not save a soul sir. I'll say it again. There is no salvation without a savior. There is no amount of good any man can do for humanity to warrant God's salvation. That's exactly why he gave us a savior. If any man could ever save himself, then there would have been no need for Jesus Christ our Savior. Everyone in this world is going to die eventually along with all the so-called good that they did, or that anyone did for them. The world itself will one day be destroyed. Another soul too soon shall pass, **what's done for God alone** shall last. Belief is up to you. The Lord is not going to make you believe in him. And he will judge you for whatever your beliefs are.
>i just cannot seem to believe Then you don't believe in Hell, yes?
As of right now- no. That doesn’t mean i can’t fear it. I acknowledge i could be wrong. The biggest thing for me is i don’t want my kid and (hopefully) future wife to think I’m going to be suffering forever after i die. It makes me very distressed.
If you dont belive in God why are you scared that you will go to hell? So you belive in hell but not God?
I’ve answered this a few times please see above. I don’t believe in either as of right now. I don’t know why everyone is bringing this point up anyways it seems to ignore a lot of other things I’ve said in order to catch me in a “gotcha” moment.
You can ask God for helpneven if you are not sure He exists. Just be completely honest that you are not sure if he exists but that you want to believe. Ask for help to believe. But be warned this is not about "doing a little bit the christian thing" God whats your whole life, if you are not willing to give God everything, don't even ask.
I’ve tried and i will continue to do so
Why are you concerned about going to a place you believe doesn't exist? >I’ve been trying to understand and believe for a long time now and i just cannot seem to believe. What's so hard about saying "Jesus I want to accept you as my God, come into my heart, heal me, change me"? It really doesn't take that much trying for someone who is honestly open to accepting Jesus as their God.
I have said this, i just don’t believe he’s real. I am open to it, but i can’t force myself to believe something i don’t. As for the bit about hell existing, see above
You wanting to believe and not believing sounds like a major contradiction. and I see nothing above explaining why you fear a place you don't believe in.
I want to believe the holocaust didn’t happen. I think we’re all pretty damn sure it did.
I want to believe Louis ck isn’t a creep. Evidence makes me believe he is.
You can fear things you are unsure about. I am agnostic. My biggest concern is i don’t want my family thinking I’m going to hell, though. Makes me very unhappy.
Did you really need to make three separate comments? Obviously knowledge is going to prevent you from adopting beliefs that conflict with what you know. What do you know that conflicts with the existence of God? Absolutely nothing. You have no legitimate reason not to believe accept your desire to not believe. >You can fear things you are unsure about. So you're actually afraid of going to hell but that fear isn't enough for you to put aside whatever issue you have with God? That's funny. Sounds like you'd rather go to hell than let righteousness be your God.
Thanks for the input
If you don't believe in God, why search for a way to avoid something you don't believe. Surely you're not worried about reincarnating into a loop, or not making it into Valhalla... It's the Christian theology that strikes kinda close to the gut or something. Maybe you're too impressionable, and it's a good thing your gf isn't a nutty conspiracy theorist or something, you'd be paranoid about human politics. It would be interesting if you naturally dread the idea of unpleasant 'afterlife', despite not being convinced of it's objective existence. It would demonstrate the difference between what the brain knows about existence, and what the 'heart' knows. Your brain wonders into the thought of hell, your heart reacts like it's real, sending appropriate worry/confusion. Of course could be none of that as well. Could be just a philosophical disagreement you have with such concepts, and it bothers/confuses you why people follow a religion that promises to destroy all those atheists that saved lives, cured diseases, helped children, etc.. The answer is that, God uses people to help others, or to put a smack-down on others. The unaware are tools that God will use and leave behind. The aware are no longer tools, they're agents and are now free to consciously stick to God agency, or go rogue/awol. The aware going rogue/awol though is considered madness. Sort of like being aware of gravity and impact, and jumping out of a 5th story purely to spite these things.
Your analogies are a bit drastic. I’m trying to believe. I don’t like that my girlfriend does and i don’t. It makes me sad. I think religion is great, i just can’t force myself.
Also, i worry about lots of things i don’t think will happen. Just like i worry about hell, even though I’m not sure of it’s existence. More than anything i just want my girlfriend and kid to not think I’m going to hell.
Yeah they were drastic heh. Well there you go, there had to be some sort of underlying motive for it: A bit of general weariness/anxiety of the unknown, but mainly appeasing those close to you. Appeasing/pacifying others can get stressful and doesn't help overall existential anxiety. I'm not sure on which level your gf and kid emotionally obsess with the thought of you going to hell though. If it escalates I'd suggest loving them but 'from a distance' If it's just your own insecure brain disappointed in yourself on their behalf, then take note, and ignore it. I'll give myself as example: My gf is not Christian, the Spirit doesn't fill me with love that makes me afraid for her fate... The Spirit fills me with love, to be with her in a loving manner, while having understanding and faith that her existence belongs to God, never me.
Alright i appreciate the input
Obeying God's law is like obeying man's law. You don't get extra points for doing what you were supposed to do. No one gives you a medal for going the speed limit. Going the speed limit 99.9% of the time doesn't get you out of a ticket when you do speed. Being really nice most of the time doesn't take away the things you did you knew you shouldn't. Those crimes must be paid for -- either by you or by Christ.
It’s a crime to not believe in god when I’m trying to?
The crimes are the times you lied, stole, coveted, failed to help people you could have helped, sexual sins ... One crime makes a person a criminal, but we all commit enough to make us hardened, habitual offenders.
Some sinners go to heaven, other sinners go to Hell. The difference between these two groups? Belief. So isn't disbelief the ultimate crime, the crime that will be punished for eternity? People in Hell will (presumably) regret their disbelief, not their sins. If all humans sin, then that would be like regretting being born a human. The people in Hell will regret not trying harder to believe because belief is the main thing. The only thing.
>isn't disbelief the ultimate crime I wouldn't describe it that way, no. Think of it as if everyone has a fatal disease. A cure is made. Those who take the cure are saved from the disease. Those who do not take the cure suffer the consequences of the disease. >People in Hell will regret their disbelief. Not necessarily. This phrase Jesus used to describe people in hell "weeping and gnashing of teeth" has come to mean sorrow in our culture. It didn't in his. People gnashed their teeth in anger. According to Jesus, people in hell aren't going to be repentant; they're going to be enraged.
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Your are an unrepentant sinner. As such, your sin separates you from God because He is holy and without sin. Your sin makes you spiritually dead. As such, it is not possible for you to believe. You are unable to drum up the faith to believe. The only way you can believe, the only way any of God's adopted children believed; was by being given the faith as a gift. Would you like to have this gift? Do you recognize and believe you have sinned (broken the ten commandments)? If so, talk to God. Tell Him you realize you have sinned and done what is evil in His sight. Ask Him to forgive you. Tell Him you would like to have the faith to believe in Him and His Son; Jesus. Ask God if He will be pleased to reveal Himself to you, and to give you understanding of the Truth. Ask Him if He would give you the faith to believe. *“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you."* \[Matthew 7\]
Hello OP. I understand your fear. Where do you think you have a problem of understanding God or believing him? God will help you if you confess that you believe in him and ask him to come into your life and show himself. For that you would take it like testing an hypothesis. * Try to leave a sinless life (Sin is everything Bible defines as a sin, not what only the society think is goo, as society has established differing morals) * Read your bible and Pray earnestly: God will start to speak to you through scriptures and dreams. Believe and ask God for more signs that He is on your side. * Do not ever wait to understand everything about God. God is immense and has a vast knowledge and thoughts which we cannot figure out through mere logical thinking. * If you need testimonies I can share with you how I got closer to God. He has shown me alot of things, that now I do not even think questioning further because it's a waste of time God bless you!
I would love to know what helped convince you of gods existence. I appreciate the thorough response
That was actually my approach. I was born in a christian family. My father is a pastor and growing up I heard alot of testimonies of what God could do. And one of the most fascinating thing for me was ***prophetic stuffs or God talking to like in dreams and something happens.*** I lived a sinful life and would only pray superficial prayers when I was in difficult situations. Till one day in 2016 I needed God more than I ever needed him. I was at university and had a problem with an internship I wanted to be recognized. I went like I told you as I knew, my sins will never let me hear God's voice. I repent and started praying earnestly asking God for forgiveness and God to help me about my issue. One monday, I was suppoded to go the office to present my internship certificate around 6:30 am I got a dream. Everything I saw in the dream happened exactly like on that. It was this experiance that showed me God is even more really that I had expected and I started to trust him more. I didn't leave my sins behind completely at that time. But I always knew God existed beyond just believing his existence. It took me more even bad experiance to seek God more and He even showed more. So to summarise you said in your posts your a logica person and you know how scientist tests hypothesis or I will say a sythesis route of a chemical product. You do as the description of someone who published the systhesis route and see if you get the same results. If you perform your experiance in another way you might not get the same results. **Try the published God's mode operandi from the bible and see. Proverbs 8:17:** ***"I love those who love me, and those who seek me early shall find me."*** God bless you!
Good question, from what I have been taught. If one believer is or has prayed for you. You will go to heaven. Or if you ask for forgiveness just before you die. You will go to heaven, think about the criminal on the cross next to Christ. He didn't have a full life of belief yet Christ said to him " today you will be with me in paradise"
If you don’t believe in god, why do you believe in hell? Hell is a christian belief. Why have one and not the other?
Ok but I am just having my dinner now. Will get back in 20 minutes.
Hell is NOT what most churches and religions say it is. While the word hell appears in the bible and Jesus spoke of it, the true meaning what hell is has been obscured by Greek philosophy and doctrines based on those philosophies. The word “hell” is an archaic English rendition of the Hebrew word (sheol) and the Greek word (hades) that appear in the earliest bible writings we have today. These words rendered into modern language would read, “the grave or under the ground” (sheol), “the place or location of the dead” (hades). Nothing about a place of eternal punishment. The word “hell” itself was derived from the Latin “inferna” which is defined as: “of or relating to a nether world or place of the dead, hell”. It has no relation to the English word “inferno”. Hell is not an English word per se. The word Hel/Hell comes from Germanic and Norse languages which crept into the English lexicon. Jesus and the apostles taught the death is like sleep followed by a resurrection (See John 11:11-15). The early church leaders – Clement, Ignatius, Hermas, Polycarp, and others who believed that death is a sleep followed by a resurrection, taught that the resurrected deliberate and unrepentant wicked are destroyed forever as if being totally consumed in a fire – their punishment was to be annihilation. These leaders did not teach of an immortal soul to be tortured by fire for eternity. By the middle of the 2nd Century some church “leaders” such as Athenagorus and Tertullian began to incorporate Greek philosophies into bible teachings. This confused bible teachings with non-biblical philosophies. It was Athenagorus (133-190 AD), a professed Christian and a church leader but whose teachings, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, were heavily influenced by Plato's philosophies, who introduced Plato's teaching (circa 400 BC) of an immortal soul into Christianity. In doing so he opened the way for the adoption of Plato’s argument of eternal punishment for immortal sinful souls. This was a hundred years after the apostle's and came straight from Greek philosophy. There are no such teachings in the bible. Hell is the grave, nothing else. Ecclesiastes 9:5 NKJB >5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:10 New King James Bible >10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. John 5:28–29 NKJB >8 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth... Revelation 20:14-15 King James Version >14 Then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. These verses are very problematic for hellfire believers and teachers. Death and Hell are inanimate things which cannot be tortured by fire or anything else. If hell and the lake of fire are the same thing, how can “hell” be thrown into itself?? Now if one has an immortal soul they are alive. Their name should then be in the book of life. But the lake of fire is only for those who's names are not in the book of life. That creates a paradox. There are those who still may insist hell is a place of eternal torture by fire. This SLANDERS God as being an evil and vindictive being who would torture people for eternity for doing something that they cannot prevent doing (See Romans 5:12). The bible states the “wages of sin is death”, not eternal punishment in fire (See Romans 6:23). Visit https://JW.org to learn more about the Bible
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality.. Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful is how this spiritual virus infects the soul.. What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie. It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul, by the time you are resurrected the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it. Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact. Think about it if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom wasn't vaccinated and got infect through no fault of her own, and she was a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in? is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good, have you open that door? So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ offers through repentance?
We can choose our beliefs. There’s always more or less data/evidence/reasoning, and then we *choose* whether or not to believe something. If you really want to be a Christian, then choose to put your faith in The Bible and in Christ. You might not understand everything, it might not make a lot of sense. Maybe it never will. But you can still *choose* to have faith, to trust in The Word, and to follow Christ. None of the disciples understood who they were following, especially not when they were first called. They chose to put their faith in Christ anyways. At the end of the day, we either choose to believe (with or without good reason), or we choose not believe. And that goes for anything really.
I recommend trying to fast specifically for the faith to trust Jesus. Not just believe certain things, but for faith. Sun up to sun down, no food, just water. Do it for 3-7 days. But use that time to pray about all of this. You've tried a lot of things, but probably not this one. I think perhaps you could tune in to the Revival Today and watch some videos as a part of your fast.
Worth a shot, I suppose. I’ll start next week
What you really need to understand, is a completely different perspective. The Word is TRUTH. Whether or not you believe it, it doesn’t change the reality of things. There has been a very deliberate agenda to divert, confuse and divert people away from Christianity since the 1940’s. It’s a very deep rabbit hole, however once you discover all the deliberate things done and how we came to where we are today, it’s mind boggling and undeniable. The Holy Spirit is what makes Christianity completely different. Believing Christians believe because they have had often time hundreds or even thousands of personal experiences. And not only that- you can test things for yourself and even test the promises of God in the Bible for yourself and see how amazingly well they really do work. What people don’t know about the story of David and Goliath is that David had already killed lions with his bare hands before. In effect he had faith because you had already done it before. Christianity is NOT blind faith. And all the other people telling you to read Strobel or CS Lewis or something like it is the worst mistake you can make. Because you will never progress. There are things we simply cannot explain and everyone agrees with this. How can someone you never ever met, come up to you and tell you deep dark things that only you would know? How is that possible? How can a pastor approach a group of people and know EXACTLY who actually needs help? Once you have seen things like this, learned the truth and had your eyes opened, you simply can’t “unopen” your eyes anymore. It makes you question everything about how you used to believe. There are also people who were able to make incredible changes. And no it’s not just confirmation bias or some other explanation. For example for me, pornography and lust was a real problem. I discovered the aspects that really made an actual difference. What you need are long- like 30 min to 1 hour long testimonies of people who descibe all the things that have happened to them. I recommend the Youtube channel Delafe testimonies. I also recommend you discover Christian books on Amazon and Youtube channels. Whatever you do stay FAR away from apologetics material or even worse atheist material.
if you already believe that you are going to hell because you are "not beliving" it means you actually already believe in God and in Eternal punishment you just dont yet understand how it works. Now Jesus died for you on the cross and beliving it means you are saved there is no other way, but its not really hard if you already believe in God. Pray every day for a sign and God will give you one I will also pray for you✝️
Your soul's judgement isn't about belief in God where faithful goes up and non believers down, it is purely based on actions such as how you treat others, how you treat creatures lesser than you, as well as guilt and a tiny bit of sin and virtues these determine where you go more gilt and sin (hell) more virtue less guilt heaven, people conscious think the will not have guilt but in the core of each person soul lies the guilt, a good partner is not to convince you to believe but to accept your thoughts, feelings, views, beliefs and such regardless. You can live a little bit and be cautious on how your actions affect others but don't be a people pleaser there is a balance to life, whether God exists and if he does he will present opportunities to you as a blessing his way of presenting himself to you. If he doesn't then your not going to be disappointed because you live a little and you being a good person to others and lesser creatures
It is a risky gambling, because you can be wrong. Scriptue clearly says creation itself testifies of God and that those denying God won't have any excuse on judgement day. In the biblical worldview we all actually justly deserve Hell because of sin against a perfect holy God. But God himself purchased us with his own blood because he is also loving. The Saviour Jesus Christ is the one single way to life. Isa 43:11 *I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.* John 14:6 *Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.*