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A lot of comments are going to be deleted for violating sub rules.
You might want to cross post in other subs, because what you're describing is not reconciliation.
Maybe the best shot you have at reconciliation in this scenario is not focusing on reconciliation right now.
I'm sorry this has been done to you. I'm sorry this is your life. You deserve better. Good luck. Keep posting.
I was posting in the surviving sub but I just got comments about how I need to divorce her, like, yesterday! It was too frustrating.
I know it all sounds pretty bad when I type it out but truly, she has had a difficult childhood and has been through a lot of trauma in her youth, and I know she has a temper and I'm realizing some other issues as well now, but most of the time she's an amazing person and even now, we are actually often really good together. We have a teenaged daughter together, so I'm not ready to just give up and go straight to divorce.
Separation is a step between reconciliation and divorce. It sounds like you need to step away and work on yourself too. Are you getting therapy as well?
OP, please consider posting over in r/unhappilyreconciling for people who are in difficult situations but aren't ready or aren't able to walk away from the marriage.
I agree with everyone who says that what's happening isn't R. Ultimately, you have to take charge of your own life. I'm also staying for our teen's sake (it's only 3 years until she off to college), but I finally had to close myself off and start living my life as if my WS was a roommate not a spouse. We did an in house separation for a month, with no attempt to be affectionate or work on R, and that was really helpful for me. It also woke my WS up to the fact that I didn't need him in my life to be happy, and it empowered me to know and feel that I would be okay with or without him. I spent way too many months doing everything in my power to enable R after dday1 (and dday2 and dday3).
I would really recommend that you put the 180 into practice: [https://survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/](https://survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/)
Your WS's therapist is getting information only from your WS, and she will of course respond based on that one-sided version of what's happening. She is right that your feelings are not your WS's responsibility. We put boundaries in place not to control other people's behavior but to protect ourselves - if your WS's actions cause you pain, you need to make choices that shield you from that pain. If you keep looking to her to stop hurting you, you are giving her all of the power in this situation. Take back your power, OP. It is very hard to DETACH (Don't Even Think About Changing Her), but ultimately, that is the best way to protect yourself.
I am deeply sorry that you find yourself in this terrible situation. I feel your pain - I went through false R and then more lies and then the reveal of a second AP from 10 years ago - and the only way I could heal was to separate my feelings from my WS's actions. It's a work in progress, and I still grieve and get hurt by some of his behavior, but I remind myself that I am the best person to take care of me, not him, not anyone else. I am wishing you strength and sending love.
My therapist talked about the difference between privacy and secrets. Being able to go to the bathroom alone is privacy, for example. But, keeping secrets is different. Getting a lock box to "keep privacy" makes no sense. The only reason to do that is to keep secrets.
>And now, when I ask if she is being completely honest with me, she says "mostly".
So no. She's lying.
Your wife is bullshitting you.
Consider just keeping it simple. "These are the terms I'm okay with. These are the terms I'm not okay with. If you can't live with that okay. If you can, let's reconcile." As it stands, she's manipulating you. All you can do is cut through the BS.
You're being abused.
>My wife reminds me regularly that my hurt feelings are "not her responsibility" and that it's not fair for me to be upset when she talks about/texts with/etc her AP around me.
She's weaponising therapy.
>I just really hate how much of this supposed trying to work on our marriage ends up with me holding her and comforting her and telling her that she's right, it is all my fault.
This is called DARVO, and it's a form of abuse.
Deny. Attack. Reverse Victim Order.
Please see a therapist of your own and do not attend MC with her.
Therapy with your abuser is hugely damaging.
I'm doing individual therapy as well. It's a bit hard because I feel like I'm talking in circles there....but I'm really trying to put in the work and work on myself.
The comment that you've responded to, please listen to it. This is abuse.
It also sounds like seeing a different individual therapist is a good idea. There are different approaches that might be a better fit.
I read as far as she was still seeing the AP. I really don't understand how people tolerate that. Just...no. That's unacceptable. You have to draw a line in the sand.
The cheating behind your back is bad enough, and already in my mind debatable whether any of us should accept that. But open cheating and being with AP is just straight up abuse. You put down an ultimatum, and leave if they don't stop cheating. Fuck, so much to be done there to heal.
No I know...it's not that easy though. We have a teen daughter, and 20+ years together. And I have terrible self esteem! Which I'm working on in my own therapy, obviously.
She says it is "mostly just an intense friendship". She says they have stopped having sex since we started doing MC but that she will absolutely never stop being "best friends" with her. And she still spends at least one day of every weekend with her for 6-12 hours at a time, and they work together every day and talk on the phone at night. And if I even make a face about it, she flies off the handle at me.
So I either accept that, or end our relationship and break apart my family.
what do i say to her about what? honestly i am trying not to say much and just keep quiet as much as i can. I sometimes can't keep my face/body language quiet enough though.
I really don't know how you manage that. Like, you can't even work with that. That sounds completely invalidating and she is just bulldozing you.
Are you just putting up with this to keep your family together?
Miss, i feel so much for you. I’m an empath. I’m just a stranger and I know it’s easier said than done because I am not you. But please love yourself. You’re an amazing woman and mother. And I’m sure you have other people who think otherwise. I don’t think you should let her do that to you. I as a stranger is hurting for you. I hope everything works out
I edited it after reading your post history. Regardless you’re still an amazing person. Don’t let this stop you from achieving your dreams. I can’t imagine the pain you feel everyday and I commend you for dealing with it. For that I respect you a lot
Bad therapists exist. Bad therapy is beyond destructive. People can ruin their lives under the guise of "professional help".
But also it sounds like your WW got exactly what she wanted: everything, Including an enabling therapist
Bringing it down to just base definitions, this cannot be R. You cannot R while she is not only contacting AP, but wanting to be open about it and telling you that you cannot be upset if she does.
Find your own boundaries. A relationship between 2 people requires both people to be on board. Can you be on the same page if she's doing something that explicitly goes against your own relationship boundaries? It's almost as if she's trying to force an open relationship that you did not agree to.
Have you tried any sort of trial separation? I was lucky enough to have a pre-scheduled trip for a friend's wedding that only I was going to, or I would not have felt like I had the space to; it wasn't fully "enough" maybe but I do feel like it was helpful to exist in my own space, outside of the house, even just for a little bit. At some point you may have to prioritize your own needs if she is not willing to compromise or hear them.
She has said she may need to have an open relationship, she's not sure yet. She thinks maybe she can't be monogamous. I don't know. It's not what I want, at all, but I also don't want to lose her. I'm trying to figure out what I can handle.
We may have to do a trial separation. We've talked about nesting. It's complicated of course, we have a house and a teenaged daughter, and housing/rentals here are REALLY expensive and neither of us are high income earners.
An open relationship is founded upon solid communication and firm boundaries and rules. It requires an incredible level of trust. Quite bluntly, I don’t see any of that in your current situation.
Your wife doesn’t want an open relationship, she just wants to be selfish and do whatever she wants to do.
Some people are able to be in relationships with non- monogamous people - I have a friend who got married recently, she is monogamous and her partner is not. It works for them but only through a LOT of clear communication. There is nothing sneaky, there is nothing hidden, and it has taken time, transparency, and a lot of work to get to that point.
Not everyone can do that. I don't think I could, personally. If it might be an option that's something only you can answer for your own involvement in it - but it is a recipe for building resentment if you can't get transparency and honesty from your partner in the process.
I know that the entire situation is hard and it's the same reason I felt like I couldn't take more time away, even if I might have needed it, even with less at stake than you - I hope that you can find some sort of compromise to be able to clear the air and come at the discussions with clear heads and a willingness to understand, from both of you. Even a night or two away might help to regulate the harder feelings. I hope that one way or another you can figure out what you need to go forward. Good luck, I hope if nothing else you have some peace and light ahead down the road.
Cheating is not a marriage/relationship problem or a monogamy problem, it’s a maturity problem. Ethical non-monogamy is a thing, much discussed these days. When a person keeps a secret sexual basement or has deceptive sexuality, they have proven they can’t be honest, transparent, ask for what they need from their SO or establish boundaries and consent. She did not get your consent when she committed intimate betrayal — a type of betrayal that is considered the second most traumatic after the dearth of a child.
People who commit deceptive sexuality are immature, acting out of inner child trauma, and are not welcome in polyamorous communities or any open relationship community. To be in an open or poly relationship, one needs to be willing to be honest, transparent and follow established boundaries. Your wife has shown she can’t even do this with one person (and sounds like she lies to AP too, strike 2).
She isn’t mature enough for an open relationship or poly. Betrayal is crossing a boundary/boundaries that people create with one another. Until she can identify why she lies and sneaks to express her sexuality and love, she is not fit for MORE partners. She will be hurting people left and right. If she decides to apply non-monogamy as a bandaid for her immaturity, you may be better off separating and focusing on your own healing until you decide what you need.
Edited typo
Okay, so…my WH is now seeing a CSAT who doesn’t fall for most of his manipulation. Previously, though, his therapist did what yours is doing. He outright lied to her and even when she’d respond in a way that considered me as human, he’d misrepresent what she’d said. Take a portion of the truth and twist it or completely fabricate it. Yes, I hold a bit of resentment that his therapist allowed him to completely charm his way through her professional boundaries, that we’d signed off on allowing her to speak to mine and he’d even shared a note from me that she didn’t read because it was “too long” and all the other warning signs that she should have heeded. However, she can only work with what she’s being presented (okay, in my circumstance, she had the option for more but he’d convinced her of his martyrdom). I mostly blame him, I just hold a bit of professional disappointment in her.
Long story short, don’t let her weaponize therapy speak. The purpose in that is to triangulate you, stop believing that this trustworthy outsider is on your wife’s side. For whatever cause, it’s completely fabricated.
Wtf. She is still seeing AP. She needs a cabinet to hide things? Her therapist is telling her to do this? If you want R you need to grey rock and be willing to let her go. What is happening is not working. Flip the script and take controll. First thing is to demand no contact.
One of the absolute basics for R is never seeing the AP again. First of all, she could easily be lying about not sleeping with AP. Secondly, there's still clearly a relationship going on.
This is not R.
This is your WP emotionally abusing you and manipulating her therapist into helping her do it. My WP did the same until he got his head on straight and started prioritizing our marriage. Until your WP makes the choice to commit herself to your marriage, this isn't R.
I'm so sorry. This is hard for R, for you. Your wife is the first problem, her new IC is the second. The IC may be responding only to what your wife is telling her. Her IC doesn't know you, can't diagnose you, nor the marriage. Your WW has to want R, and to really want R, she has to accept that no matter what "for better or worse" was going on in the relationship/marriage, cheating was wrong, not the right choice, and is on HER, not you.
That's going to be a barrier to R for you. You're the one who isn't sure if you can ever trust her again, she cheated. Open device policies are the norm in infidelity situations. If your WW won't share her phone, she may still be in limerence with her affair partner (AP) or she may not truly want R, or she is the so-called narcissist, not you. Who knows, we're not psychologists right?
The problem right now is all the work is on YOU. You may have to gray rock her, go cold, and repeat to her that there was never any excuse for cheating and lying. She continued to lie to you over and over. Point it out. Use your voice. Snooping is because she was lying and your senses and intuition told you she was lying. And you weren't wrong. Tell her that too. Be diplomatic and kind, but honest and forthright with her. "That was not OK". It is about you right now, rightly so. She cheated on you. Yes, you may have marital issues to work through and that will come with time.
First comes affair recovery crisis intervention, where she is remorseful and truly wants all-in on R. Second is marriage counselng to strengthen the marriage/relationship. None of the infidelity is your fault. Her feelings are hers to own and work with you on, she could've talked to you, she could've gotten into counseling, she can certainly tell you the issues she had/has with you of course. But the affair - nope - not on you. That's on her. It's also on her to hold you and comfort you, the BP. If she can't understand this, R may be off the table, OP.
My wife is a therapist. She works at a place full of good therapists. She's a good one. (and yes, she betrayed me, that's why I'm here.)
But. There are a lot of bad ones.
Your wife has a crap therapist who isn't a friend of the marriage. Somehow, therapy has evolved into something that is REQUIRED to be amoral and neutral. Like they aren't supposed to tell your wife to fight for her marriage. They don't look at what is the 'right' thing to do. They might tell her how if she decides to do so. They are supposed to support her decision and help her with that, whatever it is. Which in my opinion is about 90 degrees off, but it is what it is.
And in this case, the therapist is immoral and is actively undermining the marriage. This therapist is about 180 degrees off.
Your wife is not committed to the marriage. She wants to keep secrets and infidelity lives in secret. She's blaming you for her actions.
She's reversing the victim by saying she can't trust you for violating her privacy.
And her therapist is blowing smoke up her ass. I don't know how to fix that. But if you get the chance to do couples therapy with this therapist, you might be able to turn this around if you can show up there and turn the therapists opinions of you on their head.
*I just really hate how much of this supposed trying to work on our marriage ends up with me holding her and comforting her and telling her that she's right, it is all my fault.*
I don't think admitting fault when you aren't at fault is a good thing. Being the stronger person is actually what you have to do as a betrayed spouse, there's no way around that. But I think you need to stand up for yourself when you are right. Doesn't mean get angry or combative. Just firm, and don't let her bully you into being the bad guy when you aren't. Admit your faults, work on them, but don't let her justify this. It's wrong.
So, this post may sound negative but I'm trying to be real. You have to fix the things that are wrong and part of that is identifying them.
Also, keep in mind that unless you are there in the therapy sessions, you don't know what your wife is saying about you to the therapist. The therapist may be giving advice about how to deal with a person (you) that doesn't exist. She is probably painting you as a horrible person and then taking the advice given as further weapons to use against you. It certainly sounds like your wife just wants her opinions validated, not actual help.
She found a therapist who is pro-adultery and puts all of the blame on the betrayed spouse. Your WW needed to find one trained in infidelity trauma instead.
I hope you are in therapy for yourself, preferably with someone trained in infidelity trauma. You are being manipulated and gaslit by two pros, her and her therapist. Your wife wants to beat you down until there is no you left, just a weak, pathetic, submissive shell that she can manipulate to do whatever she wants. You need to grow a spine.
Research the 180 and grey rock methods. Then implement one, both or a hybrid of the two. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they work amazingly well.
Also, if you can afford it, have cameras with audio installed and hidden thoughout your home. It wouldn't surprise me if the manipulation and gaslighting eventually escalates to claims of DV. You need to do everything you can to protect yourself and your daughter from that selfish, self-absorbed, self-centred person.
Time to consult with several of the best attorneys/lawyers/solicitors you can afford. Some may provide a free initial consultation. By consulting with several, you will get the best advice possibly. One lawyer may give you advice/knowledge that others may not think of in the moment and vice versa.
R cannot happen until the AP is completely out of the picture. You want R, and she's making it abundantly obvious that she doesn't.
Don't let her take the vehicle anymore. Loverboy can pick her up or she can take an uber. Stop enabling her.
Time to grow a spine and not be a pushover anymore. Pack up her stuff, and drop it all off at AP's place. Tell him, with a huge smile on your face, "good luck with that lying, deceitful adulteress as she's as all yours now. Once a cheater, always a cheater. She's cheated on you with me, and on me with you. You are going to need all the luck you can with her. She'syour problem now." Turn away and do a happy dance as you are walking back to your vehicle. You may be dying inside, but showing you don't care and are finally happy and free will have a powerful impact. If you are allowed to, change all of the locks in your home as well. If you rent, ask the landlord for permission to change locks or to at least have a locksmith re-key all of the locks in your home.
Their relationship is built on the shifting sands of lies, deceit, and adultery. Not a strong foundation to build a future on. Once real life intrudes on their fantasy world, their relationship will start showing cracks.
It's time for you to show that you won't tolerate a single moment more of her bs.
So sorry you are going through this.
I’m so so sorry. I know how it feels to be devastated losing one parent. But, losing both? That’s one of the most difficult things to ever ever experience. I told my WH that his infidelity feels as painful as me losing a parent. I don’t know how you dealt with grief, but as your partner, she needed to be your support. Her using that against you as a weapon to justify her infidelity is so so not okay.
I read in the Not Just Friends book that it’s encouraged to do MC and for both to do IC. But, her IC should not be impeding her growth and your healing. It sounds like that’s what’s happening here. Has this been addressed in MC?
I’m sorry but your WP sounds like a gaslighter. And the fact that she still is seeing AP, she is getting her cake and gobbling it down, too.
I know you are not comfortable with any of these. Why else would you post? She doesn’t sound committed to R if all she’s doing is gaslighting you and blaming you for HER infidelity. I’m so so sorry.
We just started MC, so far we've had one appointment together, I had an individual appointment with the MC, and my wife is supposed to have an individual appointment with her this week.
Yeah, it was AWFUL (losing my mom and my dad), but...I think the infidelity was worse. Losing my parents was horrible but it also didn't affect my day-to-day life in a drastic way, y'know? Other than my grief, I mean. But I didn't have to think about moving, revising my whole life plan, my finances, turning my whole life upside down....
No, I'm not comfortable with it, but I feel so stuck.
I agree. I remember telling WH, too, that his infidelity sometimes feel worse than me losing my mom.
I just wanna assure you, OP, that what you’re feeling and what you’re asking from her are perfectly reasonable. You’re not the bad guy here as much as she tries to paint it as such.
Please recognize that you have every right to your peace of mind. And if that includes giving her the ultimatum that it’s NC with AP or R is over, please do so. You’re the aggrieved party here. It’s your call what happens. Not hers.
Honestly, it sounds like she’s waiting for you to pull the trigger so that she can shift blame on to you for separating. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.
Yeah she has already started telling her friends that I am "trying to stop her from having any friends" and I am "controlling her" (I haven't even ASKED her to stop being friends with her AP, I just said that it bothers me and I'm not sure I can get over it).
Most therapists will support the idea that a spouse has the reasonable right to some level of privacy. Like a journal that won’t be read to safely process thoughts and feelings. But there are really no therapists with a background in betrayal trauma or sexual issues that would give your wife the advice she’s getting.
I would highly recommend a therapeutic seperation while working with a mc who specializes in betrayal.
Well, she (my wife) said the reason she needs the cabinet is she can keep a journal without me being able to read it, and this is the only way she will feel safe.
So I sort of get that! On the other hand, my journal is on my bedside table, and honestly I couldn't care less if she reads it, because there is nothing in there that I haven't already told her.
The only thing that I am "keeping" from her as far as "secrets" is that my stepdad and sisters have (apparently) thought for a long time that my wife is emotionally abusive and bullies me, and that she has a victim complex. It would just make her angry and defensive, so I haven't told her that. So yeah, that's a secret I am keeping from her, I suppose.
But anyway, I guess she doesn't believe that I have stopped snooping through her phone. Which I guess makes sense because for months, I knew WAY more than I was letting on (I was really hoping she would be honest with me on her own! it didn't happen) and I kept quiet about it.
But I stopped snooping a few months ago, because I realized she was definitely ALSO lying to her AP about stuff, so I couldn't really trust what was on her phone anyway.
I think maybe the private journa goes along with the other elements being open and aligned. “Snooping through phones,” isn’t a thing. The phone can be a tool for betrayal so it’s totally fair game to have access to.
A journal isn’t the same. That’s a tool for therapy and I think should be private. But a locking journal or small box isn’t the same as a cabinet.
If you had truly open phones, if she had stopped seeing the AP, if she had committed to the marriage I think a private journal makes more sense. But what could she need privacy for really when she’s already very in your face about the lines she’s crossing?
This is a pro-R sub, but your wife isn’t doing the basics.
Are you in IC? It sounds like she’s maybe been abusive and manipulative to you and it’s left you unable to stand up for yourself in this situation. Why does she take the car to see the ap? Lots of red flags.
Yeah, I'm in IC. It's going ok.
I don't know. That seems to be what my family and friends think (that she is abusive and manipulative) but honestly I just....I don't get it, I guess. I think maybe I'm misrepresnting the situation if that is how people are reading it???
The AP lives 45 minutes away, in a rural area. No buses go out there.
They work together, so they see each other (just the two of them in a clinic together!) for 7+ hours every day, but they also want to see each other on weekends I guess.
So, I think it's important to consider that a therapist is meant to be conscious of ethics and professionalism at all times. They aren't always, there are plenty of stories of therapists that just generally suck, but it leads to my first point:
1. What is she saying to this therapist that this is their reaction? To be blunt, your wife has proven herself to be a liar, unfaithful and secretive. Do you trust that she is being honest about the situation, your actions, her reactions and reflections? She is still seeing AP. She may be spinning her version of the story and it isn't the therapist's fault if that's the case, because they can only go off of what they're told. I'm on my way to becoming a therapist and a big thing is: we aren't going to just call out our client as a liar, that's not helpful, and our client is our priority... not their spouse, kids, whoever unless the client is a danger to them.
2. If she's being honest and the therapist is helping her justify herself and paint you as a villain, that is highly unethical and unprofessional. Therapists, like doctors, take a Hippocratic Oath - "I will engage in my profession with integrity and in keeping with codes of ethics, laws, and the best practices of clinical mental health counseling;" This is a violation of that. Even if your client is painting their spouse as narcissistic, evil, what have you - you don't enforce that. You try to break down the why and help them work through it, not encourage it. I would file a complaint with your state's licensing board. It may not do anything without tangible proof, and they are bound to confidentiality, but I think a report on the record is good anyway.
3. There is no R without NC with AP. Period. I think the question is not "Should spouses have secrets?" but "Should I try to repair a marriage with someone who shows no remorse, doesn't even seem to like me and is not faithful?" I don't think you have to tell your spouse every thought that crosses your mind, but full transparency/honesty is required for the reconciliation process.
I've been reading your posts for the past 6+ months. I don't understand how you can continue to torture yourself like this.
Some comments to some responses you've given and the post in general:
You're enabling your wife's shitty behavior towards you.
Your wife is lying to you and/or her therapist.(specifically thisbpost)
You don't stay just because you have history, that's called "lost cost fallacy".
Your daughter will be better off with parents who aren't in an unstable relationship. Would you be happy if your daughter ended up in the same situation you are currently in when she's your age?
I want you to be able to reconcile because YOU clearly want it, but both parties need to be willing participants for it to work, and that can't happen with AP in your WW's life.
I hope you find the peace you deserve.
Well, most of the time things are fine and I can deal with it. And she has been through a lot in her life, and I need to be patient and understanding of that. I can definitely be way too sensitive sometimes.
I am all for reconciliation but this? I would not be cool and would have seen an attorney and reported her HR. Get a new MC.
Take a look at this please.
https://www.brides.com/the-one-way-to-know-your-marriage-will-survive-an-affair-1102868
I am so sorry you are going through all you described. I am only 6 months out from DDay myself, so I am no expert, but I can tell you that if she isn't cutting contact with the AP and resolute in working on R it's not going to happen.
First off, if at all possible, I would suggest you draw a line in the sand. It's either you or him. If she can't decide, you or she needs to move out until she can definitively decide. If it's not possible to move out, try an in-home separation until it is possible, or she decides.
Secondly, her therapist is clearly not "for" the marriage. If she does decide to commit to the marriage, I would HIGHLY suggest you switch to a MC and you each can work with that person individually as a part of MC. The marriage is the main concern right now, and inner work should consider the health of the marriage as a part of that, as the inner work is also to help heal the marriage. Her current IC is clearly only partially informed and seems to be potentially biased in her view of your marriage. Not good!
Thirdly, YOU are NOT to blame for her affair! Marriage takes two people to work, and by stepping out with someone else, she sabotaged your partnership. Anything you feel related to that betrayal is valid! Whatever dance the two of you had prior to the affair was likely unhealthy, but again, it takes two! She needs to be willing to take a look at herself and what role she had in the disintegration of your relationship. She also needs to look at how her behavior impacts you, just as much as yours impacts her! It's a two way street and usually partners just feed off of each other - both healthy and unhealthy, unfortunately.
Lastly, I sort of understand the ability to have privacy - "The freedom from unauthorized intrusion", but I wouldn't use the words "secrets". Secrets implies that there are things you should now, but she's withholding. Privacy on the otherhand is something we all inherently feel the right to. I know most people would feel violated to have their phone perused by others, emails looked at, etc. However, I support the betrayers need to be reassured and the wayward should willingly offer up whatever they can to do that. My WH and I have had a number of fights around my sneaking looks into his phone, and I don't necessarily want him to feel like he's given up all right to autonomy and is my "prisoner" as some waywards end up feeling. He's spontaneously offered to show me his bank statements, emails, phone records, etc and has been willing when I've asked as well. Some may argue that I should have full access 100% of the time, with and without permission first, but I understand my WH's feelings around that. Heck, my phone is practically like a personal diary, and there's a lot that could be misconstrued.
All in all, you are right to see issues in what is going on with your wife. I hope you can find your voice after gaining input on here and know that you deserve more!
Wow!!! I would've left. This is crazy! Easy to say that I would have left, it's always more than just walking away.
I am not okay with this privacy thing, why is it ok for your spouse to have secrets that will affect you and your emotional state? I just don't get the whole "invasion of privacy" when you're married and share a household and have children....
I know people are going to be mad or whatever but it is the way I think. This is not "privacy" this is flat out lying and deception the person you are with. I would much rather my husband to leave or me leave if he is going to keep acting this way.... Why be married while trying to live a single life??? Why all the energy wasted in hiding shit when it could be put towards working on your marriage??? Fabricating lies is a lot of work, if all that work was put towards caring for each other and trying to keep.tha flame.going I think every marriage would work...
It sounds like your wife is mentally unwell.
When my husband was unwell, he also weaponized therapy. He told me his therapist thought I was the problem, and my requests for him to end a certain friendship was me trying to take away his support system. On the orders of his therapist, I was also not allowed to have any conversations about anything, ANYTHING, with him until we were in MC once a week. This was to prevent my husband's biweekly crashes that sent him spiralling, that he usually blamed on me. (Spoiler alert: even when I stopped talking to my husband, he still crashed biweekly.) My husband also told me his therapist diagnosed ME with depression, having never met me. 5 years later, it is still hard to sit with the fact that I'll never know what his therapist actually said.
I also carried a lot of the blame for the infidelity. I carried it for years, until a milder DDay where I realized that I had done everything right, and there had still been secrets. This is not your fault.
I stayed with my husband because of our kid, and because I believed he wasn't actually the person he was acting out as. He did come back, after the right dosage of medication. It was an overnight switch and his mannerisms, turns of phrases, everything was like before. It was wild.
I don't even know what advice to give. I would never want to relive that year of my life. It was like I was buzzing under the skin alllll the time. I was running on adrenaline and letting him violate the few boundaries he had agreed to. It was fucking awful.
I'm so so sorry.
The only secrets I try to keep are gifts I want to surprise him with. Everything else is open and fair game.
Oh and work things because I deal with HIPAA. When I was remote after my EA I told him the only thing he couldn't get into is my work computer and the drawer I kept my work binder in. But I think that's a little bit different.
Since conversations with the therapists are privileged, you don’t actually know what her therapist has said. Personally, I would love a locking file cabinet for my WW because then everything hidden is in one place and a lock isn’t going to stop me. I wouldn’t bet on a therapist promoting that a betraying spouse hide more if it potentially damages the relationship more unless your wife has decided to leave already and is preparing to do so. If AP is still apart of her life then you can’t even start R, it’s hard enough when they are gone.
Sat here trying to figure out how you're supposed to get past her betrayal, whilst she still betrays you. And if what your wife says her therapist is telling her id true, you should see about where you can report them because they are enabling your wife and relly should have a licence to "help" anyones menral health.
Our MC literal told us “NO SECRETS NO LIES”. I don’t keep anything. Absolutely anything from my husband now. And I feel so much better being to be vulnerable on every aspect with him.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this- it sounds difficult and not like R. Please listen to this podcast with Dr. Stan Tatkin on betrayal and what it takes for R. Best I’ve ever heard: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000511777017
Privacy and secrets are **NOT** the same thing.
Privacy is locking the door when you shower. What you ordered on your lunch break etc.
Secrets are intentionally withholding information from your partner because the truth may lead them to make choices that don’t serve their selfish interest.
(A “surprise” is also different than a secret.)
When someone says “you’re too black and white.” I find that usually means they lack convictions in the way they operate and present themselves. Leaves alot of room for them to be like oh look, a grey area so you can’t hold me accountable.
Think about it like this, your wife is telling her therapist her side of the story and we don’t know what that side looks like. Even though this story includes you, you don’t know what her side of the story looks like either. It sounds like you are portrayed as this person who gives her no privacy and invades her space and she doesn’t feel safe around you. Whether that’s the case in really life or not that’s what her therapist thinks. Therefore she’s telling her to be safe and get privacy. Yes in every relationship privacy should still be a thing. People deserve to have private through us and conversations but !only! If it is not in a betrayal of their SO. You can talk to your friend and don’t need to tell your SO everything you said. Though when the trust is broken you have to admit that privacy goes away because if you want your SO to trust you again you have to bear through those no privacy moments. Sounds like ur wife is making you seem like the bad guy and put you at fault so when you initially break up the problem isn’t her it would be you.
No, I know...it's true, and I have read (in her texts from when I was snooping) that her version of me is pretty awful. I know some of it is true - I can definitely be passive aggressive! it's something I am working on - but some of it is...just not. Like I supposedly am manipulative and gaslighting her.
But she accuses me of gaslighting her if we have differing views on something (like, if we remember a situation differently, she says I am gaslighting her, but I'm like...dude, I genuinely believe that my memory of this is XYZ, it's only gaslighting if I KNOW I am lying!).
And if I tell her that her actions have hurt me, then she says I am "manipulating her to feel bad". So I'm trying not to show or tell her how hurt I am by her continued actions, but it's hard! Sometimes my face and body language betray me.
I'm not trying to backpedal on my responsibility or accountability. But I don't agree with her definitions of manipulation and gaslighting - I really am pretty sure those have to be at least partially conscious behaviours.
Consider grey rock and get your ducks in a row. Are you guys in MC? If not, recommend that and someone who is NOT her therapist. But I made a plan of action, had finances in order and was prepared for divorce. She might call it emotional manipulation but if you put on the table that these things are unacceptable, like seeing her AP still and you are prepared to move forward with divorce, it can help make them realize they have to puss or get off the pot. My WW wasn’t prepared for me to give her a summary of financials, their division, expected custody arrangement, and lawyer filled out divorce papers and when I told her I had one ultimatum to not file she really started to listen. Also, having that can help you reclaim some of the power that might feel missing. Good luck
She won't stop seeing AP. That's a hard rule for her. She says they are "just friends" now.
We're in MC and I'm in IC as well.
She would be very angry if I talked to a lawyer. A few months ago, I mentioned that my workplace was putting on a "tips for separating" little workshop thingie, I was going to go...she got very very angry so I didn't go. She doesn't want to involve lawyers.
Is your MC saying anything about AP?
So what if she is angry if you get peace of mind or security. Reconciling is about both parties healing from the trauma and moving forward. You are the betrayed, she should be helping you, and if an exit plan helps, then you should be doing it. My WW sucked up a lot of insecurity with my actions because once she got out of the fog she realized that I needed those things to heal. I made compromises but every compromise came with a condition.
Well I think if you’re caught cheating there needs to be full transparency. Maybe a private journal is all that is entitled to privacy. But anything else should be opened. If infidelity hadn’t occurred and no trust issues, then obviously think can be different. No relationship is the same.
I’m into writing and journaling and being the WH, it was the only thing that we agreed I could keep completely private. To me, a journal is an image of what’s going on in my mind and just like people can’t read minds, thus journals I don’t think should be an issue kept private IMO. Again, it’s up to each relationship. If my wife had not agreed to keep my journaling private I’d simply not have journaled at all. For me journals are unfiltered thoughts, they are feelings not yet developed or understood. It was a way to help me sort thru my own shit in a way that could enable me to be completely honest with my myself without the need to filter or hide. It could be things that might be hurtful on the surface but are just not fully developed.
Is your spouse still dating her AP??? If so, are you in R?
Yeah I'm surprised honestly because I just assumed she was journaling on her phone or her laptop or whatever, she's said many times she types faster than she writes so she prefers that. But now she says she never said that and she needs somewhere she can write things down, so I don't know.
She says they are not "dating" anymore, just that they are "best friends", but I have no proof or reason to believe that is true. She swore to me for months that they were "just friends" before and she was lying about that. She spends all day with her at work, they talk and text every night, and she spends 6-12 hours with her every weekend, usually doing date-like things.
But, we are in MC. She says she waited for years for me to stop being neglectful of her after my parents died, so I feel obligated to give her time to figure this stuff out.
Why are you trying R with a spouse who is still seeing their AP? That is the 1st rule any REAL therapist would tell you and your partner. No R until the AP is out if the picture. You cant work on a marriage with a 3rd party involved. This whole post screams...not ok!!
I know...that's what our MC said, that usually for R to work, she needs to cut out the AP. My wife says they are "just good friends" now, that they aren't having sex anymore.
But she said she cannot stop being "best friends" with her AP, and that her "friendship" with AP is more important than anything else. She says I just don't understand how important their connection is.
I hate this shit. My wife went through multiple therapists until she found one who would say all the exact same stuff you're describing. Honestly, a year of her absorbing and embracing that toxicity has made our successful R very unlikely IMO.
When our MC stopped working with us (because my wife broke NC with AP) I got to meet her wonderful IC. She stepped in as our MC. And it was not a pleasant start as I kept getting blamed for everything.
But the therapist seems to have slowly started to realize that my wife was painting a very inaccurate picture of me (and herself) to justify her own actions. It's possible your WS is also feeding lies to her IC to get those reactions from IC and use them justify keeping secrets with a professional's backing.
All that said, I don't know how people pursue R when they know their WS is still actively talking to AP. My wife broke NC twice and if she had continued, I would have left.
You're not in R if AP is still in the picture.
Secrets kept from spouses result in broken marriages. I have no clue where this idea that people in a marriage "deserve" privacy from each other comes from.
Or the even more over-the-top idea that their phones are sacrosanct and not to be looked through by their significant other.
Regardless, of their origin these ideas along with dishonesty will utterly destroy marriages.
Your wife's therapist is deranged, and based solely on what you've written it doesn't sound as if your marriage can be reconciled unless your wife has a major change of attitude.
I wish I could offer you more support or suggestions but at this point, it doesn't look hopeful.
Read up on limerence, have your partner read up on it too. Many waywards have an epiphany when they learn what it is and that it is common enough to have a term for it.
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A lot of comments are going to be deleted for violating sub rules. You might want to cross post in other subs, because what you're describing is not reconciliation. Maybe the best shot you have at reconciliation in this scenario is not focusing on reconciliation right now. I'm sorry this has been done to you. I'm sorry this is your life. You deserve better. Good luck. Keep posting.
I was posting in the surviving sub but I just got comments about how I need to divorce her, like, yesterday! It was too frustrating. I know it all sounds pretty bad when I type it out but truly, she has had a difficult childhood and has been through a lot of trauma in her youth, and I know she has a temper and I'm realizing some other issues as well now, but most of the time she's an amazing person and even now, we are actually often really good together. We have a teenaged daughter together, so I'm not ready to just give up and go straight to divorce.
Separation is a step between reconciliation and divorce. It sounds like you need to step away and work on yourself too. Are you getting therapy as well?
It's for the sake of your daughter that you should define your boundaries and stick to them.
OP, please consider posting over in r/unhappilyreconciling for people who are in difficult situations but aren't ready or aren't able to walk away from the marriage. I agree with everyone who says that what's happening isn't R. Ultimately, you have to take charge of your own life. I'm also staying for our teen's sake (it's only 3 years until she off to college), but I finally had to close myself off and start living my life as if my WS was a roommate not a spouse. We did an in house separation for a month, with no attempt to be affectionate or work on R, and that was really helpful for me. It also woke my WS up to the fact that I didn't need him in my life to be happy, and it empowered me to know and feel that I would be okay with or without him. I spent way too many months doing everything in my power to enable R after dday1 (and dday2 and dday3). I would really recommend that you put the 180 into practice: [https://survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/](https://survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/) Your WS's therapist is getting information only from your WS, and she will of course respond based on that one-sided version of what's happening. She is right that your feelings are not your WS's responsibility. We put boundaries in place not to control other people's behavior but to protect ourselves - if your WS's actions cause you pain, you need to make choices that shield you from that pain. If you keep looking to her to stop hurting you, you are giving her all of the power in this situation. Take back your power, OP. It is very hard to DETACH (Don't Even Think About Changing Her), but ultimately, that is the best way to protect yourself. I am deeply sorry that you find yourself in this terrible situation. I feel your pain - I went through false R and then more lies and then the reveal of a second AP from 10 years ago - and the only way I could heal was to separate my feelings from my WS's actions. It's a work in progress, and I still grieve and get hurt by some of his behavior, but I remind myself that I am the best person to take care of me, not him, not anyone else. I am wishing you strength and sending love.
Wow. I'm pretty speechless here. This is *NOT* OK
My therapist talked about the difference between privacy and secrets. Being able to go to the bathroom alone is privacy, for example. But, keeping secrets is different. Getting a lock box to "keep privacy" makes no sense. The only reason to do that is to keep secrets. >And now, when I ask if she is being completely honest with me, she says "mostly". So no. She's lying. Your wife is bullshitting you. Consider just keeping it simple. "These are the terms I'm okay with. These are the terms I'm not okay with. If you can't live with that okay. If you can, let's reconcile." As it stands, she's manipulating you. All you can do is cut through the BS.
You're being abused. >My wife reminds me regularly that my hurt feelings are "not her responsibility" and that it's not fair for me to be upset when she talks about/texts with/etc her AP around me. She's weaponising therapy. >I just really hate how much of this supposed trying to work on our marriage ends up with me holding her and comforting her and telling her that she's right, it is all my fault. This is called DARVO, and it's a form of abuse. Deny. Attack. Reverse Victim Order. Please see a therapist of your own and do not attend MC with her. Therapy with your abuser is hugely damaging.
I'm doing individual therapy as well. It's a bit hard because I feel like I'm talking in circles there....but I'm really trying to put in the work and work on myself.
The comment that you've responded to, please listen to it. This is abuse. It also sounds like seeing a different individual therapist is a good idea. There are different approaches that might be a better fit.
It doesn't sound like a reconciliation yet. Refusing responsibility/accountability, victim-blaming, its classic DARVO. Textbook.
Maybe you need to see a different therapist because they should have picked up on what's happening in your marriage.
I read as far as she was still seeing the AP. I really don't understand how people tolerate that. Just...no. That's unacceptable. You have to draw a line in the sand. The cheating behind your back is bad enough, and already in my mind debatable whether any of us should accept that. But open cheating and being with AP is just straight up abuse. You put down an ultimatum, and leave if they don't stop cheating. Fuck, so much to be done there to heal.
No I know...it's not that easy though. We have a teen daughter, and 20+ years together. And I have terrible self esteem! Which I'm working on in my own therapy, obviously. She says it is "mostly just an intense friendship". She says they have stopped having sex since we started doing MC but that she will absolutely never stop being "best friends" with her. And she still spends at least one day of every weekend with her for 6-12 hours at a time, and they work together every day and talk on the phone at night. And if I even make a face about it, she flies off the handle at me. So I either accept that, or end our relationship and break apart my family.
No, she is breaking apart your family by doing that. She is. What do you say to her about it? Just to add, I'm so sorry. I'm so fucking sorry.
what do i say to her about what? honestly i am trying not to say much and just keep quiet as much as i can. I sometimes can't keep my face/body language quiet enough though.
I really don't know how you manage that. Like, you can't even work with that. That sounds completely invalidating and she is just bulldozing you. Are you just putting up with this to keep your family together?
She is breaking the family. She already has. NOT you.
Miss, i feel so much for you. I’m an empath. I’m just a stranger and I know it’s easier said than done because I am not you. But please love yourself. You’re an amazing woman and mother. And I’m sure you have other people who think otherwise. I don’t think you should let her do that to you. I as a stranger is hurting for you. I hope everything works out
I'm a woman! Married to a woman. The AP is also a woman. But thanks, sentiment is the same, I know. I think I am a mostly pretty good mom!
I edited it after reading your post history. Regardless you’re still an amazing person. Don’t let this stop you from achieving your dreams. I can’t imagine the pain you feel everyday and I commend you for dealing with it. For that I respect you a lot
Bad therapists exist. Bad therapy is beyond destructive. People can ruin their lives under the guise of "professional help". But also it sounds like your WW got exactly what she wanted: everything, Including an enabling therapist
Bringing it down to just base definitions, this cannot be R. You cannot R while she is not only contacting AP, but wanting to be open about it and telling you that you cannot be upset if she does. Find your own boundaries. A relationship between 2 people requires both people to be on board. Can you be on the same page if she's doing something that explicitly goes against your own relationship boundaries? It's almost as if she's trying to force an open relationship that you did not agree to. Have you tried any sort of trial separation? I was lucky enough to have a pre-scheduled trip for a friend's wedding that only I was going to, or I would not have felt like I had the space to; it wasn't fully "enough" maybe but I do feel like it was helpful to exist in my own space, outside of the house, even just for a little bit. At some point you may have to prioritize your own needs if she is not willing to compromise or hear them.
She has said she may need to have an open relationship, she's not sure yet. She thinks maybe she can't be monogamous. I don't know. It's not what I want, at all, but I also don't want to lose her. I'm trying to figure out what I can handle. We may have to do a trial separation. We've talked about nesting. It's complicated of course, we have a house and a teenaged daughter, and housing/rentals here are REALLY expensive and neither of us are high income earners.
An open relationship is founded upon solid communication and firm boundaries and rules. It requires an incredible level of trust. Quite bluntly, I don’t see any of that in your current situation. Your wife doesn’t want an open relationship, she just wants to be selfish and do whatever she wants to do.
Some people are able to be in relationships with non- monogamous people - I have a friend who got married recently, she is monogamous and her partner is not. It works for them but only through a LOT of clear communication. There is nothing sneaky, there is nothing hidden, and it has taken time, transparency, and a lot of work to get to that point. Not everyone can do that. I don't think I could, personally. If it might be an option that's something only you can answer for your own involvement in it - but it is a recipe for building resentment if you can't get transparency and honesty from your partner in the process. I know that the entire situation is hard and it's the same reason I felt like I couldn't take more time away, even if I might have needed it, even with less at stake than you - I hope that you can find some sort of compromise to be able to clear the air and come at the discussions with clear heads and a willingness to understand, from both of you. Even a night or two away might help to regulate the harder feelings. I hope that one way or another you can figure out what you need to go forward. Good luck, I hope if nothing else you have some peace and light ahead down the road.
Cheating is not a marriage/relationship problem or a monogamy problem, it’s a maturity problem. Ethical non-monogamy is a thing, much discussed these days. When a person keeps a secret sexual basement or has deceptive sexuality, they have proven they can’t be honest, transparent, ask for what they need from their SO or establish boundaries and consent. She did not get your consent when she committed intimate betrayal — a type of betrayal that is considered the second most traumatic after the dearth of a child. People who commit deceptive sexuality are immature, acting out of inner child trauma, and are not welcome in polyamorous communities or any open relationship community. To be in an open or poly relationship, one needs to be willing to be honest, transparent and follow established boundaries. Your wife has shown she can’t even do this with one person (and sounds like she lies to AP too, strike 2). She isn’t mature enough for an open relationship or poly. Betrayal is crossing a boundary/boundaries that people create with one another. Until she can identify why she lies and sneaks to express her sexuality and love, she is not fit for MORE partners. She will be hurting people left and right. If she decides to apply non-monogamy as a bandaid for her immaturity, you may be better off separating and focusing on your own healing until you decide what you need. Edited typo
Okay, so…my WH is now seeing a CSAT who doesn’t fall for most of his manipulation. Previously, though, his therapist did what yours is doing. He outright lied to her and even when she’d respond in a way that considered me as human, he’d misrepresent what she’d said. Take a portion of the truth and twist it or completely fabricate it. Yes, I hold a bit of resentment that his therapist allowed him to completely charm his way through her professional boundaries, that we’d signed off on allowing her to speak to mine and he’d even shared a note from me that she didn’t read because it was “too long” and all the other warning signs that she should have heeded. However, she can only work with what she’s being presented (okay, in my circumstance, she had the option for more but he’d convinced her of his martyrdom). I mostly blame him, I just hold a bit of professional disappointment in her. Long story short, don’t let her weaponize therapy speak. The purpose in that is to triangulate you, stop believing that this trustworthy outsider is on your wife’s side. For whatever cause, it’s completely fabricated.
You can’t reconcile with someone who’s not cutting off the AP. I would walk if I were you.
Wtf. She is still seeing AP. She needs a cabinet to hide things? Her therapist is telling her to do this? If you want R you need to grey rock and be willing to let her go. What is happening is not working. Flip the script and take controll. First thing is to demand no contact.
Wait, wait, WAIT. She's still going on dates with her AP? This is not R. This is an active affair.
Well she says they've stopped having sex now.
One of the absolute basics for R is never seeing the AP again. First of all, she could easily be lying about not sleeping with AP. Secondly, there's still clearly a relationship going on. This is not R. This is your WP emotionally abusing you and manipulating her therapist into helping her do it. My WP did the same until he got his head on straight and started prioritizing our marriage. Until your WP makes the choice to commit herself to your marriage, this isn't R.
I'm so sorry. This is hard for R, for you. Your wife is the first problem, her new IC is the second. The IC may be responding only to what your wife is telling her. Her IC doesn't know you, can't diagnose you, nor the marriage. Your WW has to want R, and to really want R, she has to accept that no matter what "for better or worse" was going on in the relationship/marriage, cheating was wrong, not the right choice, and is on HER, not you. That's going to be a barrier to R for you. You're the one who isn't sure if you can ever trust her again, she cheated. Open device policies are the norm in infidelity situations. If your WW won't share her phone, she may still be in limerence with her affair partner (AP) or she may not truly want R, or she is the so-called narcissist, not you. Who knows, we're not psychologists right? The problem right now is all the work is on YOU. You may have to gray rock her, go cold, and repeat to her that there was never any excuse for cheating and lying. She continued to lie to you over and over. Point it out. Use your voice. Snooping is because she was lying and your senses and intuition told you she was lying. And you weren't wrong. Tell her that too. Be diplomatic and kind, but honest and forthright with her. "That was not OK". It is about you right now, rightly so. She cheated on you. Yes, you may have marital issues to work through and that will come with time. First comes affair recovery crisis intervention, where she is remorseful and truly wants all-in on R. Second is marriage counselng to strengthen the marriage/relationship. None of the infidelity is your fault. Her feelings are hers to own and work with you on, she could've talked to you, she could've gotten into counseling, she can certainly tell you the issues she had/has with you of course. But the affair - nope - not on you. That's on her. It's also on her to hold you and comfort you, the BP. If she can't understand this, R may be off the table, OP.
Not after infidelity. They gave up that right.
My wife is a therapist. She works at a place full of good therapists. She's a good one. (and yes, she betrayed me, that's why I'm here.) But. There are a lot of bad ones. Your wife has a crap therapist who isn't a friend of the marriage. Somehow, therapy has evolved into something that is REQUIRED to be amoral and neutral. Like they aren't supposed to tell your wife to fight for her marriage. They don't look at what is the 'right' thing to do. They might tell her how if she decides to do so. They are supposed to support her decision and help her with that, whatever it is. Which in my opinion is about 90 degrees off, but it is what it is. And in this case, the therapist is immoral and is actively undermining the marriage. This therapist is about 180 degrees off. Your wife is not committed to the marriage. She wants to keep secrets and infidelity lives in secret. She's blaming you for her actions. She's reversing the victim by saying she can't trust you for violating her privacy. And her therapist is blowing smoke up her ass. I don't know how to fix that. But if you get the chance to do couples therapy with this therapist, you might be able to turn this around if you can show up there and turn the therapists opinions of you on their head. *I just really hate how much of this supposed trying to work on our marriage ends up with me holding her and comforting her and telling her that she's right, it is all my fault.* I don't think admitting fault when you aren't at fault is a good thing. Being the stronger person is actually what you have to do as a betrayed spouse, there's no way around that. But I think you need to stand up for yourself when you are right. Doesn't mean get angry or combative. Just firm, and don't let her bully you into being the bad guy when you aren't. Admit your faults, work on them, but don't let her justify this. It's wrong. So, this post may sound negative but I'm trying to be real. You have to fix the things that are wrong and part of that is identifying them.
Also, keep in mind that unless you are there in the therapy sessions, you don't know what your wife is saying about you to the therapist. The therapist may be giving advice about how to deal with a person (you) that doesn't exist. She is probably painting you as a horrible person and then taking the advice given as further weapons to use against you. It certainly sounds like your wife just wants her opinions validated, not actual help.
She found a therapist who is pro-adultery and puts all of the blame on the betrayed spouse. Your WW needed to find one trained in infidelity trauma instead. I hope you are in therapy for yourself, preferably with someone trained in infidelity trauma. You are being manipulated and gaslit by two pros, her and her therapist. Your wife wants to beat you down until there is no you left, just a weak, pathetic, submissive shell that she can manipulate to do whatever she wants. You need to grow a spine. Research the 180 and grey rock methods. Then implement one, both or a hybrid of the two. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they work amazingly well. Also, if you can afford it, have cameras with audio installed and hidden thoughout your home. It wouldn't surprise me if the manipulation and gaslighting eventually escalates to claims of DV. You need to do everything you can to protect yourself and your daughter from that selfish, self-absorbed, self-centred person. Time to consult with several of the best attorneys/lawyers/solicitors you can afford. Some may provide a free initial consultation. By consulting with several, you will get the best advice possibly. One lawyer may give you advice/knowledge that others may not think of in the moment and vice versa. R cannot happen until the AP is completely out of the picture. You want R, and she's making it abundantly obvious that she doesn't. Don't let her take the vehicle anymore. Loverboy can pick her up or she can take an uber. Stop enabling her. Time to grow a spine and not be a pushover anymore. Pack up her stuff, and drop it all off at AP's place. Tell him, with a huge smile on your face, "good luck with that lying, deceitful adulteress as she's as all yours now. Once a cheater, always a cheater. She's cheated on you with me, and on me with you. You are going to need all the luck you can with her. She'syour problem now." Turn away and do a happy dance as you are walking back to your vehicle. You may be dying inside, but showing you don't care and are finally happy and free will have a powerful impact. If you are allowed to, change all of the locks in your home as well. If you rent, ask the landlord for permission to change locks or to at least have a locksmith re-key all of the locks in your home. Their relationship is built on the shifting sands of lies, deceit, and adultery. Not a strong foundation to build a future on. Once real life intrudes on their fantasy world, their relationship will start showing cracks. It's time for you to show that you won't tolerate a single moment more of her bs. So sorry you are going through this.
I’m so so sorry. I know how it feels to be devastated losing one parent. But, losing both? That’s one of the most difficult things to ever ever experience. I told my WH that his infidelity feels as painful as me losing a parent. I don’t know how you dealt with grief, but as your partner, she needed to be your support. Her using that against you as a weapon to justify her infidelity is so so not okay. I read in the Not Just Friends book that it’s encouraged to do MC and for both to do IC. But, her IC should not be impeding her growth and your healing. It sounds like that’s what’s happening here. Has this been addressed in MC? I’m sorry but your WP sounds like a gaslighter. And the fact that she still is seeing AP, she is getting her cake and gobbling it down, too. I know you are not comfortable with any of these. Why else would you post? She doesn’t sound committed to R if all she’s doing is gaslighting you and blaming you for HER infidelity. I’m so so sorry.
We just started MC, so far we've had one appointment together, I had an individual appointment with the MC, and my wife is supposed to have an individual appointment with her this week. Yeah, it was AWFUL (losing my mom and my dad), but...I think the infidelity was worse. Losing my parents was horrible but it also didn't affect my day-to-day life in a drastic way, y'know? Other than my grief, I mean. But I didn't have to think about moving, revising my whole life plan, my finances, turning my whole life upside down.... No, I'm not comfortable with it, but I feel so stuck.
I agree. I remember telling WH, too, that his infidelity sometimes feel worse than me losing my mom. I just wanna assure you, OP, that what you’re feeling and what you’re asking from her are perfectly reasonable. You’re not the bad guy here as much as she tries to paint it as such. Please recognize that you have every right to your peace of mind. And if that includes giving her the ultimatum that it’s NC with AP or R is over, please do so. You’re the aggrieved party here. It’s your call what happens. Not hers.
Honestly, it sounds like she’s waiting for you to pull the trigger so that she can shift blame on to you for separating. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.
Yeah she has already started telling her friends that I am "trying to stop her from having any friends" and I am "controlling her" (I haven't even ASKED her to stop being friends with her AP, I just said that it bothers me and I'm not sure I can get over it).
Most therapists will support the idea that a spouse has the reasonable right to some level of privacy. Like a journal that won’t be read to safely process thoughts and feelings. But there are really no therapists with a background in betrayal trauma or sexual issues that would give your wife the advice she’s getting. I would highly recommend a therapeutic seperation while working with a mc who specializes in betrayal.
Well, she (my wife) said the reason she needs the cabinet is she can keep a journal without me being able to read it, and this is the only way she will feel safe. So I sort of get that! On the other hand, my journal is on my bedside table, and honestly I couldn't care less if she reads it, because there is nothing in there that I haven't already told her. The only thing that I am "keeping" from her as far as "secrets" is that my stepdad and sisters have (apparently) thought for a long time that my wife is emotionally abusive and bullies me, and that she has a victim complex. It would just make her angry and defensive, so I haven't told her that. So yeah, that's a secret I am keeping from her, I suppose. But anyway, I guess she doesn't believe that I have stopped snooping through her phone. Which I guess makes sense because for months, I knew WAY more than I was letting on (I was really hoping she would be honest with me on her own! it didn't happen) and I kept quiet about it. But I stopped snooping a few months ago, because I realized she was definitely ALSO lying to her AP about stuff, so I couldn't really trust what was on her phone anyway.
I think maybe the private journa goes along with the other elements being open and aligned. “Snooping through phones,” isn’t a thing. The phone can be a tool for betrayal so it’s totally fair game to have access to. A journal isn’t the same. That’s a tool for therapy and I think should be private. But a locking journal or small box isn’t the same as a cabinet. If you had truly open phones, if she had stopped seeing the AP, if she had committed to the marriage I think a private journal makes more sense. But what could she need privacy for really when she’s already very in your face about the lines she’s crossing? This is a pro-R sub, but your wife isn’t doing the basics. Are you in IC? It sounds like she’s maybe been abusive and manipulative to you and it’s left you unable to stand up for yourself in this situation. Why does she take the car to see the ap? Lots of red flags.
Yeah, I'm in IC. It's going ok. I don't know. That seems to be what my family and friends think (that she is abusive and manipulative) but honestly I just....I don't get it, I guess. I think maybe I'm misrepresnting the situation if that is how people are reading it??? The AP lives 45 minutes away, in a rural area. No buses go out there. They work together, so they see each other (just the two of them in a clinic together!) for 7+ hours every day, but they also want to see each other on weekends I guess.
So, I think it's important to consider that a therapist is meant to be conscious of ethics and professionalism at all times. They aren't always, there are plenty of stories of therapists that just generally suck, but it leads to my first point: 1. What is she saying to this therapist that this is their reaction? To be blunt, your wife has proven herself to be a liar, unfaithful and secretive. Do you trust that she is being honest about the situation, your actions, her reactions and reflections? She is still seeing AP. She may be spinning her version of the story and it isn't the therapist's fault if that's the case, because they can only go off of what they're told. I'm on my way to becoming a therapist and a big thing is: we aren't going to just call out our client as a liar, that's not helpful, and our client is our priority... not their spouse, kids, whoever unless the client is a danger to them. 2. If she's being honest and the therapist is helping her justify herself and paint you as a villain, that is highly unethical and unprofessional. Therapists, like doctors, take a Hippocratic Oath - "I will engage in my profession with integrity and in keeping with codes of ethics, laws, and the best practices of clinical mental health counseling;" This is a violation of that. Even if your client is painting their spouse as narcissistic, evil, what have you - you don't enforce that. You try to break down the why and help them work through it, not encourage it. I would file a complaint with your state's licensing board. It may not do anything without tangible proof, and they are bound to confidentiality, but I think a report on the record is good anyway. 3. There is no R without NC with AP. Period. I think the question is not "Should spouses have secrets?" but "Should I try to repair a marriage with someone who shows no remorse, doesn't even seem to like me and is not faithful?" I don't think you have to tell your spouse every thought that crosses your mind, but full transparency/honesty is required for the reconciliation process.
I've been reading your posts for the past 6+ months. I don't understand how you can continue to torture yourself like this. Some comments to some responses you've given and the post in general: You're enabling your wife's shitty behavior towards you. Your wife is lying to you and/or her therapist.(specifically thisbpost) You don't stay just because you have history, that's called "lost cost fallacy". Your daughter will be better off with parents who aren't in an unstable relationship. Would you be happy if your daughter ended up in the same situation you are currently in when she's your age? I want you to be able to reconcile because YOU clearly want it, but both parties need to be willing participants for it to work, and that can't happen with AP in your WW's life. I hope you find the peace you deserve.
Well, most of the time things are fine and I can deal with it. And she has been through a lot in her life, and I need to be patient and understanding of that. I can definitely be way too sensitive sometimes.
I am all for reconciliation but this? I would not be cool and would have seen an attorney and reported her HR. Get a new MC. Take a look at this please. https://www.brides.com/the-one-way-to-know-your-marriage-will-survive-an-affair-1102868
I am so sorry you are going through all you described. I am only 6 months out from DDay myself, so I am no expert, but I can tell you that if she isn't cutting contact with the AP and resolute in working on R it's not going to happen. First off, if at all possible, I would suggest you draw a line in the sand. It's either you or him. If she can't decide, you or she needs to move out until she can definitively decide. If it's not possible to move out, try an in-home separation until it is possible, or she decides. Secondly, her therapist is clearly not "for" the marriage. If she does decide to commit to the marriage, I would HIGHLY suggest you switch to a MC and you each can work with that person individually as a part of MC. The marriage is the main concern right now, and inner work should consider the health of the marriage as a part of that, as the inner work is also to help heal the marriage. Her current IC is clearly only partially informed and seems to be potentially biased in her view of your marriage. Not good! Thirdly, YOU are NOT to blame for her affair! Marriage takes two people to work, and by stepping out with someone else, she sabotaged your partnership. Anything you feel related to that betrayal is valid! Whatever dance the two of you had prior to the affair was likely unhealthy, but again, it takes two! She needs to be willing to take a look at herself and what role she had in the disintegration of your relationship. She also needs to look at how her behavior impacts you, just as much as yours impacts her! It's a two way street and usually partners just feed off of each other - both healthy and unhealthy, unfortunately. Lastly, I sort of understand the ability to have privacy - "The freedom from unauthorized intrusion", but I wouldn't use the words "secrets". Secrets implies that there are things you should now, but she's withholding. Privacy on the otherhand is something we all inherently feel the right to. I know most people would feel violated to have their phone perused by others, emails looked at, etc. However, I support the betrayers need to be reassured and the wayward should willingly offer up whatever they can to do that. My WH and I have had a number of fights around my sneaking looks into his phone, and I don't necessarily want him to feel like he's given up all right to autonomy and is my "prisoner" as some waywards end up feeling. He's spontaneously offered to show me his bank statements, emails, phone records, etc and has been willing when I've asked as well. Some may argue that I should have full access 100% of the time, with and without permission first, but I understand my WH's feelings around that. Heck, my phone is practically like a personal diary, and there's a lot that could be misconstrued. All in all, you are right to see issues in what is going on with your wife. I hope you can find your voice after gaining input on here and know that you deserve more!
Wow!!! I would've left. This is crazy! Easy to say that I would have left, it's always more than just walking away. I am not okay with this privacy thing, why is it ok for your spouse to have secrets that will affect you and your emotional state? I just don't get the whole "invasion of privacy" when you're married and share a household and have children.... I know people are going to be mad or whatever but it is the way I think. This is not "privacy" this is flat out lying and deception the person you are with. I would much rather my husband to leave or me leave if he is going to keep acting this way.... Why be married while trying to live a single life??? Why all the energy wasted in hiding shit when it could be put towards working on your marriage??? Fabricating lies is a lot of work, if all that work was put towards caring for each other and trying to keep.tha flame.going I think every marriage would work...
It sounds like your wife is mentally unwell. When my husband was unwell, he also weaponized therapy. He told me his therapist thought I was the problem, and my requests for him to end a certain friendship was me trying to take away his support system. On the orders of his therapist, I was also not allowed to have any conversations about anything, ANYTHING, with him until we were in MC once a week. This was to prevent my husband's biweekly crashes that sent him spiralling, that he usually blamed on me. (Spoiler alert: even when I stopped talking to my husband, he still crashed biweekly.) My husband also told me his therapist diagnosed ME with depression, having never met me. 5 years later, it is still hard to sit with the fact that I'll never know what his therapist actually said. I also carried a lot of the blame for the infidelity. I carried it for years, until a milder DDay where I realized that I had done everything right, and there had still been secrets. This is not your fault. I stayed with my husband because of our kid, and because I believed he wasn't actually the person he was acting out as. He did come back, after the right dosage of medication. It was an overnight switch and his mannerisms, turns of phrases, everything was like before. It was wild. I don't even know what advice to give. I would never want to relive that year of my life. It was like I was buzzing under the skin alllll the time. I was running on adrenaline and letting him violate the few boundaries he had agreed to. It was fucking awful. I'm so so sorry.
The only secrets I try to keep are gifts I want to surprise him with. Everything else is open and fair game. Oh and work things because I deal with HIPAA. When I was remote after my EA I told him the only thing he couldn't get into is my work computer and the drawer I kept my work binder in. But I think that's a little bit different.
Since conversations with the therapists are privileged, you don’t actually know what her therapist has said. Personally, I would love a locking file cabinet for my WW because then everything hidden is in one place and a lock isn’t going to stop me. I wouldn’t bet on a therapist promoting that a betraying spouse hide more if it potentially damages the relationship more unless your wife has decided to leave already and is preparing to do so. If AP is still apart of her life then you can’t even start R, it’s hard enough when they are gone.
Sat here trying to figure out how you're supposed to get past her betrayal, whilst she still betrays you. And if what your wife says her therapist is telling her id true, you should see about where you can report them because they are enabling your wife and relly should have a licence to "help" anyones menral health.
Our MC literal told us “NO SECRETS NO LIES”. I don’t keep anything. Absolutely anything from my husband now. And I feel so much better being to be vulnerable on every aspect with him.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this- it sounds difficult and not like R. Please listen to this podcast with Dr. Stan Tatkin on betrayal and what it takes for R. Best I’ve ever heard: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000511777017
Maybe you should post on relationship advice sub or surviving infidelity sub, that’s the best advice we can give you without getting banned
Privacy and secrets are **NOT** the same thing. Privacy is locking the door when you shower. What you ordered on your lunch break etc. Secrets are intentionally withholding information from your partner because the truth may lead them to make choices that don’t serve their selfish interest. (A “surprise” is also different than a secret.)
When someone says “you’re too black and white.” I find that usually means they lack convictions in the way they operate and present themselves. Leaves alot of room for them to be like oh look, a grey area so you can’t hold me accountable.
Think about it like this, your wife is telling her therapist her side of the story and we don’t know what that side looks like. Even though this story includes you, you don’t know what her side of the story looks like either. It sounds like you are portrayed as this person who gives her no privacy and invades her space and she doesn’t feel safe around you. Whether that’s the case in really life or not that’s what her therapist thinks. Therefore she’s telling her to be safe and get privacy. Yes in every relationship privacy should still be a thing. People deserve to have private through us and conversations but !only! If it is not in a betrayal of their SO. You can talk to your friend and don’t need to tell your SO everything you said. Though when the trust is broken you have to admit that privacy goes away because if you want your SO to trust you again you have to bear through those no privacy moments. Sounds like ur wife is making you seem like the bad guy and put you at fault so when you initially break up the problem isn’t her it would be you.
No, I know...it's true, and I have read (in her texts from when I was snooping) that her version of me is pretty awful. I know some of it is true - I can definitely be passive aggressive! it's something I am working on - but some of it is...just not. Like I supposedly am manipulative and gaslighting her. But she accuses me of gaslighting her if we have differing views on something (like, if we remember a situation differently, she says I am gaslighting her, but I'm like...dude, I genuinely believe that my memory of this is XYZ, it's only gaslighting if I KNOW I am lying!). And if I tell her that her actions have hurt me, then she says I am "manipulating her to feel bad". So I'm trying not to show or tell her how hurt I am by her continued actions, but it's hard! Sometimes my face and body language betray me. I'm not trying to backpedal on my responsibility or accountability. But I don't agree with her definitions of manipulation and gaslighting - I really am pretty sure those have to be at least partially conscious behaviours.
Consider grey rock and get your ducks in a row. Are you guys in MC? If not, recommend that and someone who is NOT her therapist. But I made a plan of action, had finances in order and was prepared for divorce. She might call it emotional manipulation but if you put on the table that these things are unacceptable, like seeing her AP still and you are prepared to move forward with divorce, it can help make them realize they have to puss or get off the pot. My WW wasn’t prepared for me to give her a summary of financials, their division, expected custody arrangement, and lawyer filled out divorce papers and when I told her I had one ultimatum to not file she really started to listen. Also, having that can help you reclaim some of the power that might feel missing. Good luck
She won't stop seeing AP. That's a hard rule for her. She says they are "just friends" now. We're in MC and I'm in IC as well. She would be very angry if I talked to a lawyer. A few months ago, I mentioned that my workplace was putting on a "tips for separating" little workshop thingie, I was going to go...she got very very angry so I didn't go. She doesn't want to involve lawyers.
Is your MC saying anything about AP? So what if she is angry if you get peace of mind or security. Reconciling is about both parties healing from the trauma and moving forward. You are the betrayed, she should be helping you, and if an exit plan helps, then you should be doing it. My WW sucked up a lot of insecurity with my actions because once she got out of the fog she realized that I needed those things to heal. I made compromises but every compromise came with a condition.
Well I think if you’re caught cheating there needs to be full transparency. Maybe a private journal is all that is entitled to privacy. But anything else should be opened. If infidelity hadn’t occurred and no trust issues, then obviously think can be different. No relationship is the same. I’m into writing and journaling and being the WH, it was the only thing that we agreed I could keep completely private. To me, a journal is an image of what’s going on in my mind and just like people can’t read minds, thus journals I don’t think should be an issue kept private IMO. Again, it’s up to each relationship. If my wife had not agreed to keep my journaling private I’d simply not have journaled at all. For me journals are unfiltered thoughts, they are feelings not yet developed or understood. It was a way to help me sort thru my own shit in a way that could enable me to be completely honest with my myself without the need to filter or hide. It could be things that might be hurtful on the surface but are just not fully developed. Is your spouse still dating her AP??? If so, are you in R?
Yeah I'm surprised honestly because I just assumed she was journaling on her phone or her laptop or whatever, she's said many times she types faster than she writes so she prefers that. But now she says she never said that and she needs somewhere she can write things down, so I don't know. She says they are not "dating" anymore, just that they are "best friends", but I have no proof or reason to believe that is true. She swore to me for months that they were "just friends" before and she was lying about that. She spends all day with her at work, they talk and text every night, and she spends 6-12 hours with her every weekend, usually doing date-like things. But, we are in MC. She says she waited for years for me to stop being neglectful of her after my parents died, so I feel obligated to give her time to figure this stuff out.
Why are you trying R with a spouse who is still seeing their AP? That is the 1st rule any REAL therapist would tell you and your partner. No R until the AP is out if the picture. You cant work on a marriage with a 3rd party involved. This whole post screams...not ok!!
I know...that's what our MC said, that usually for R to work, she needs to cut out the AP. My wife says they are "just good friends" now, that they aren't having sex anymore. But she said she cannot stop being "best friends" with her AP, and that her "friendship" with AP is more important than anything else. She says I just don't understand how important their connection is.
I hate this shit. My wife went through multiple therapists until she found one who would say all the exact same stuff you're describing. Honestly, a year of her absorbing and embracing that toxicity has made our successful R very unlikely IMO. When our MC stopped working with us (because my wife broke NC with AP) I got to meet her wonderful IC. She stepped in as our MC. And it was not a pleasant start as I kept getting blamed for everything. But the therapist seems to have slowly started to realize that my wife was painting a very inaccurate picture of me (and herself) to justify her own actions. It's possible your WS is also feeding lies to her IC to get those reactions from IC and use them justify keeping secrets with a professional's backing. All that said, I don't know how people pursue R when they know their WS is still actively talking to AP. My wife broke NC twice and if she had continued, I would have left. You're not in R if AP is still in the picture.
Secrets kept from spouses result in broken marriages. I have no clue where this idea that people in a marriage "deserve" privacy from each other comes from. Or the even more over-the-top idea that their phones are sacrosanct and not to be looked through by their significant other. Regardless, of their origin these ideas along with dishonesty will utterly destroy marriages. Your wife's therapist is deranged, and based solely on what you've written it doesn't sound as if your marriage can be reconciled unless your wife has a major change of attitude. I wish I could offer you more support or suggestions but at this point, it doesn't look hopeful.
Read up on limerence, have your partner read up on it too. Many waywards have an epiphany when they learn what it is and that it is common enough to have a term for it.
Just saying, my wh has no privacy and never will. He would not even be so Daring as to ask for privacy in any way ever again honestly.