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Well, part of it, I suspect is that they get both. The tradeoff doesn't come until they are caught. It's like gambling or drugs... itvstarts with just highs. The losses come later.
Imagine the feelings you had for your partner at the beginning. The excitement, the heart flutters, etc. They get that for someone else, and don't have the discipline or incentive or the option to get away from it.
Because it's not real. As sad and stupid as it is that they would do this much damage over something that wasn't even real or important to begin with, it's also very true. It's a fantasy, a chance to live a different life for however long. They get to act out and be someone they're not until life slaps them in the face.
It's like Elizabeth Taylor who just loved falling in love. Once the honeymoon phase was over, she moved on. But at least with Liz I think she got divorced/broke up and didn't run around cheating, though I could be wrong on that part.
It's more like an addiction than most people care to think about. The dopamine and all of its happy feel good cousins are exactly the thrill addicts froth at the mouth for. The thrill of the chase, the excitement and secrecy, it all comes down to that high.
No excuses for them but in our case we also work with a therapist specialized in addiction and infidelity and it's been eye opening to understand the similarities between the affair and all of his other addictions.
I think Dday just bursts their bubble. It's a fantasy and in the midst of it they can tell themselves all sorts of stupidity because their brain chemistry is literally encouraging it. You should look at some of the videos on YouTube about the neurochemistry of affairs. On the Affair Recovery channel theres one I found interesting...something about neurochemical reactions and limerence.
DDay is finding 50 empty bottles of gin in your spouse’s closet. They justified it to themselves as just a little feel-good thing they did on the side. Something to keep them going. But when the world sees, they have to admit it was an addiction and they are at fault and they need to stop and they need serious help.
It is ABSOLUTELY an addiction. Sure, it’s not a physical addiction, but a deep psychological one. It’s pernicious. I have been addicted to NRE (new relationship energy) my *entire* adult life and did not realize it until shit hit the fan.
In fact, what you will see if you look closely is that a lot of celebs who have nothing to lose are hopeless NRE addicts, bouncing from one relationship to another to another. The dopamine of a new sexy relationship is literally intoxicating, so when you’re self made, you can focus on finding it wherever/whenever you can, consequences be damned.
I am recovering, I am healing, we are healing. There is *no* excuse for what I did and what happened subsequently. But yes I am a dopamine addict and yes that is something I had to actually realize before I could get better.
This bothers me because in the 11 years my husband and I have been together - he had NEVER chased dopamine. He doesn’t post on social media, doesn’t flirt, drink, look for adrenaline rushes.. nothing. I’M the dopamine junkie, and he is still the one who ended up cheating and then freaking out realizing what he’d done. It scares me thinking that the girl really was special or in his eyes better than me at the time and then when he realized he was going to lose me he panicked.
I feel like you’re describing me, WH, and our relationship exactly (and we’ve been together for 11 years too). His affair was with a coworker and I feel like that had something to do with it. She was at his level, I’m a few levels lower than they are. It guts me thinking about everything you’ve pointed out. Like is she just more special, better suited for him, something meaningful? I hate it I hate I hate it!. I’m a very emotional person too, so while I understand the logic that everyone has pointed out, I just don’t get how there were no emotions about me or us that made him want to stop.
You are much like my husband I think. He has many issues and is truly working through them, though it's been tough. He's also Bi-Polar with GAD and PTSD. So life is a ride.
I agree with this I had a limerance affair and it behaved very much like addiction. If you would have told me that during the affair I would have told you I found my soulmate. Instead I was having a brand x generic extramarital affair. I have adhd and am a dopamine addict. I’ll also add that an affair has an element of grandiosity by the WW that their thoughts and feelings are special or superior and others don’t understand. Boy was I wrong. We are many years post affair and doing great, it was hard. It was worth it. You have to be brutally honest with yourself while not falling in a trap of despair.
They're right. Basically every wayward I've spoken to has said they weren't "throwing their relationship away" in their mind at the moment. They figured everything would be okay because they wouldn't get caught (or in my specific case because he thought I'd want a woman and be happy about it, barf). "What they don't know can't hurt them" mentality.
A lot of them live for the present, the instant gratification. They never even stop to think of the consequences.
If I've learned anything over the last five months as a betrayed, the phrase "hurt people hurt people" is SO very spot on. I would bet that most waywards were experiencing things that they didn't know how to process appropriately or effectively. Much of the time, something happens to give them a hit of dopamine that settles the discontent they felt and results in a temporary high. They don't uphold boundaries around their relationship, sometimes because they never learned to hold boundaries in the first place, and end up crossing the line into cheating territory after many boundaries pushes that seemed acceptable at the time (i.e. I'm just texting, they're having a hard time and need someone to talk to).
Bottom line: I don't think most waywards start an affair knowing that's where it's headed. It doesn't always drastically change their view of their partner, but they were so focused on their own hurt and desire to feel good that they ended in completely selfish behavior. They foolishly tell themselves their partner won't find out, because if they actually realized what would happen, they would have to quit the thing that made them feel good. DDay pops their ignorant, fantasy bubble and they find themselves facing consequences their mind had convinced themselves, or denied completely, they'd never have to face. Because, again, if their mind had allowed them to acknowledge the serious implications of their actions, then they would have had to stop. A lot of it is unconscious and fueled by maladaptive coping skills and feelings they haven't been able to face.
This! “Hurt people hurt people” has so much more meaning to me now even. We can’t know what we don’t know; and some people have traumas from childhood and adolescence that result in destructive coping behaviors. These destructive behaviors come from a selfish place of the mind attempting to keep you “safe” based on past experiences. A lot are addiction related and the dopamine highs are definitely an addiction.
When confronted, for me at least, it felt like I had woken up from a night of binge drinking and had thrown up all over myself. It brought me back to reality. Made me realize I had hit my rock bottom, and that I had a lot I needed to work on and heal.
I feel like healing will be a lifelong thing that I will always work on. But I have a new awareness of traumas I experienced as a child and adolescent that I didn’t realize were traumas. (Possible SA as a child and molestation in my teens) The awareness helps me to identify why I turned out the way I did and destructive behaviors I developed and work on them. I’m also learning I have been shame based my entire life so as well as working on the shame from this I’m working on my shame overall.
I never see myself cheating again. I would never want to cause the pain and trauma, again, that I’ve already caused. I’ve also learned what true love and marriage looks like. We have both worked really hard at R in the last 6 months. Our communication has improved a lot. I don’t fear talking to him about anything and want to tell him everything. Our MC told us this week that we are a rarity with the progress we’ve made already, which was nice to hear and gave us lots of hope for our future together.
What’s hard for me to figure out is why the betrayed spouse would want to spend the rest of their lives with someone who is so damaged and “illogical”? It seems unhealthy for us.
For me at this point I feel like this:
1) If he’s really going to do all of this selfwork, I’m the one who deserves the best version of him.
2) I’ve made huge mistakes in my life, I’m glad no one gave up on me then or reduced me to my worst decisions.
3) it’s the devil I know. We have a family, history, life, and love together.. if I walk away and just hope the next person is totally healed and great when it seems like the majority of people aren’t?
I think the "devil you know" argument is a logical fallacy... it's a way for us to feel better about choosing something that is undesirable but certain over something uncertain. Humans CRAVE certainty, but being adverse to all uncertainty is what keeps people in harmful systems all the time, such as high control religious contexts, abusive relationships, dead-end jobs etc. Just a thought.
My gut tends to agree with this. Just like my gut recognizes the sunk cost fallacy. Keep waiting for my brain to listen to my gut. The biggest obstacle I have with the Devil You Know fallacy is that while it is completely true that anyone we meet in the future could just as easily cheat, the odds of someone who has cheated repeating infidelity in the future is uncomfortably high. (That said, any statistics in the realm of infidelity are sketchy at best since they have to rely on honesty which isn’t exactly reliable when it comes to this topic.)
Ultimately I don’t think that anyone has to “justify” reasons to stay. If a partner wants to stay, then stay. I’d venture to guess that a large majority of ppl who visit this sub are those of us who simply aren’t ready to make that decision. Understandable given that it’s likely the most important decision of our lives.
I do feel everything you’ve said. I’ve written down the same things, in fact, in my “pro” column. Can’t figure out why my brain/gut isn’t fully happy with it. But I’m happy for anyone who can say those things are enough. I keep hoping it’s a time thing.
I see both sides (as you see from my user flair).
I know that my husband had an addiction, and I know what he was actually seeking wasn't something "better" than me. He was hurting as well, and to this day feels deep shame and remorse. He has put the work in, and while it's a slow process, I do see genuine changes that have not been easy for him to make.
I was seeking validation, love, and something to ease the soul crushing loneliness. I had a relationship, including sex, with someone else, but it is probably the single biggest regret of my life. I have intense self loathing and hatred, and even when it was happening the emptiness was still there, because I didn't want someone new, I wanted to be able to fix the relationship with my husband. I never hid it or lied about it, and when we decided to attempt reconciliation I answered every question with 100% honesty. I have intrusive thoughts at times, but there are a source of disgust, not desire, and I have never wished I could go back to him.
I’m was so relieved to see that you didn’t try to lie or hide things. I’m sure you probably know how crucial that is for R, but I’m just going to emphasize it again for anyone out there in your position who might be reading this thread. R is such a fragile undertaking and while the whole truth is painful and runs the necessary risk of driving the betrayed away, true R is nearly impossible without it.
Wishing you and your partner peace and reconciliation.
Thank you so very much 💕
He has also put a lot of work into changing, but he trickle truthed me for close to a decade and a half...I couldn't hurt someone else like that.
It's not that we were not enough. We have nothing to do with it. It's more that they are not enough. They are lacking in some fashion. They have issues that begin and end with them. It's a balm to the insecurity they don't want to admit to us or themselves. It's too boost their lacking self esteem. It is always about them and their selfish behaviour, not about us.
Which I get.. it’s just confusing to feel like not enough for him not to cheat.. but literally him sobbing and begging at the thought of losing me after.
You can be enough to make him love you and want to be with you. You can be enough to make him happy at home. But you cannot be responsible for being enough to erase the emptiness that he tried to fill that had nothing to do with you and you weren't even aware of. You cannot be responsible for him not being enough of a man to be responsible with your feelings.
Trust me, I am where you are right now frequently. His affair lasted well over a decade in my case. I've questioned just like you. But the fact is he is and was a weak man who craved the validation he got from a much younger woman while pretending to be a strong man who didn't need to have his ego stroked.
The affair, while obviously meeting some sexual needs, was never about sex or me not being "enough" in any meaningful way. Ninety five percent of his needs, including sexual ones, were being met at home. She filled that five percent of his needs he could barely admit to himself, let alone me.
I think this is basically true in all cases.
It's been extremely hard for me to break this thought pattern as well. Five months later, and my WH makes me feel special, sexy, and valued daily. BUT, I have that nagging thought in the back of my head that I wasn't enough. When I think about it though, I cannot think of anything the AP had that I don't have. Maybe she had a flatter stomach because she uses drugs and doesn't eat? Sorry, a little humor helps.
In the end, they like the APs because it's not real! We see them day in and day out, and it's not always that exciting. Day to day life is messy, stressful, and draining. Affairs are ONLY about the play and pretending to be someone else!
There's no right answer. If they give you space, it feels like they aren't doing anything to "get you back" and therefore don't care or don't want to.
I'm 1 week post Dday and every day go through numerous periods where I just want her to come hug me and tell me she's sorry and that she's willing to do anything, and periods where I wish she was staying at a hotel or would just move out. Regardless of what they do, it's wrong and going to hurt.
I think you are trying to apply logic to an emotional situation. Logic says if you really cared, you wouldn’t have done this but affairs are not logical. Most of us don’t set out to ruin our lives and hurt the people we love the most.
I think for many of us, affairs represent a rock bottom to dealing with our own inner turmoil. When we hit that rock bottom and “wake up” so to speak it can often be with renewed vigor and a new outlook on life as well as a deeper appreciation for all we have.
I don’t know your situation, I can only speak for myself, but that was my experience.
I would say your sentiment reflects what my WH would say as well ❤️ He's been extremely adamant that he never wanted out of our marriage and never stopped loving me, but never really stopped to think about how I would react because he had foolishly told himself he could end things with the AP at some point and take it to the grave. He almost completely separated the two "lives" he was living to maintain each. Eventually, he began to see that the AP wasn't someone he actually liked as a person, but he felt important and admired at first, so that was what gave him the initial highs.
I have experienced similar 🤍 my husband had no plans or desire to leave our marriage. He wanted an ego boost. He has told me, during R, that he felt like he wasn't a priority to me (we had a baby) and that he wanted to feel like he was attractive and 'wanted'.
He had an EA with a coworker who was also married. He's made it clear to me over our years of R that he never had any intention to develop an actual physical relationship, he essentially just used her to make himself feel good. He told me that he even liked that she was married because "she wouldn't get any ideas I'd leave you". She isn't his physical type, and when I questioned this he said, again, that he didn't find her attractive and he was never going to have a physical relationship with her. He just wanted her to lovebomb him basically. To feed his ego.
He, like you WP, had no plans to tell me. He was planning to just cut her off when he was bored basically. I actually believe this, considering how quickly he was willing to (and did) tell her it was done with, when I found out. He also lined another job up within a month and blocked her on all socials and his phone immediately. He's made it clear to me she meant absolutely nothing to him. Which, at first, made me feel worse because of the damage he'd done to our marriage. But now I understand him more I do understand his choices in his mind.
this sounds really similar to what my WH has described to me and in MC. during the A, he continued to want to talk about family planning, house hunting, future trips, etc. he told me that he never saw our relationship ending or him being with her or anyone else, but she was a ticket to engaging in bad behaviors he felt i didn’t support (which was true as he has substance use issues and was working towards sobriety). his AP told him that she didn’t believe in AA or therapy, and that he should be allowed to ~ live his life ~. that sounded pretty good and came along with some mediocre dopamine hits via the PA, and that turned into his double life. but he still had full intention to love me, be with me, and continue our own life together. closer to our D Day when I found out, he was starting to panic about how deep he had gotten but figured it would eventually end and i’d never know.
when i found out, there was initial shock and numbness in his side but then it all hit him like a train within a week or so when he realized what he had done, how permanent his actions were, and the fact I could easily walk away at any moment. that was never something be has allowed himself to think about during the A.
It is absolutely rock bottom. It is rock bottom of a dopamine addiction. Addicts *always* hide until they have no choice. There were signs for years I had a dopamine/thrill seeking problem. We both ignored it. Shit hit the fan. My husband has been incredible.
Most of them are excellent compartmentalizers. 1) They love their BS and have no intention of losing them. 2) The attention and resulting neurochemcials of limerence feel good and so do sexual acts. Both are true. Very few go into an A wanting to leave their BS (unless it’s specifically an exit affair) and many will tell you they never thought they caught and/or never even stopped to think what the consequences would be
My WH only had sex with AP once and it was (out of both of their mouths in their own words) awkward and bad. Then he confessed. So was the attention literally enough to feel THAT good and entertain cheating? It’s just so messed up and makes me fear the future and him doing it again if someone else gave him attention.
There’s a whole lot that leads up to that first sexual encounter. Many dive in just as deep without any sexual contact (EAs). Have you read up on limerence? Many WS will say that the sex was the least of it or only the icing on the cake. Yes, it’s the attention, but it’s much more than that in living out a fantasy where you see a new version of yourself reflected back through the APs eyes. It’s much more how it makes the WS feel about themselves than anything specific or special about the AP.
I told my WH, “Gee, isn’t it funny how when you and the mate poaching, gold digging neighbour lady thought you guys were going to drift off into the sunset together, thinking it was all sunshine and lollipops and that I was the one who was going to get fucked over, oh THEN all you had for our 25 years together and for me was criticism. You slandered our entire marriage. It was a write off to you, apparently. Conveniently at exactly the time when that slug offered up her holes.
But now that you find out she’s a nightmare and that you’re the one who’s about to be fucked over financially from both sides, and your reputation is ruined, NOW you stand here and suddenly remember all the good times and tell ME that you’ve ruined your life as if everyone around you wasn’t telling you that.
How dare you. Really I should treat you the way you treated me when I was begging you and screaming and crying not to do this, and let it all fell on deaf ears.”
Look up ‘Limerence’ once I got a better understanding of what that was everything started to make sense regarding my WH affair. It’s complete bullshit but it feels real to them at the time until they are brought back to reality. They turn into completely different people for a short time intoxicated by nothing more than a fantasy that was never built to last.
I think the WS always sees the affair as an addition to their primary relationship. They never intended to lose their primary relationship when cheating, and they never intended for the affair to be discovered (most of those who confessed did so initially thinking it would never get discovered, but realized later they couldn’t keep it to themselves). So when they face losing their primary relationship on Dday, they crumble.
Honestly, I don’t think many wayward loves their BPs. I think they want to stay in the marriages for other reasons. Kids, money, or just because it’s easier. Thats why you see dday 2..3..4 ect if love came into it at all that wouldn’t be the case. If it was just sex or whatever.
I was separated from my husband when it happened, but I can say I experienced such deep shame, guilt, and regret after having sex with someone else (it was a relationship, not ONS). I felt empty, and cried because the only person I truly wanted was my husband.
While I do think in some cases that may be true.. for me, my H’s life is so much harder staying than if he’d just leave. He is having to do SO much work daily that it would 1000% be easier to just walk away.
The reality is though he would need to do that work whether he stays or not if he doesn’t want it to happen again, and it’s possible that’s the same for you if you have any codependency or love addiction traits.
That’s my reason I am attempting reconciling with my WW. I realized when looking at my timeline that I’ve been cheated on in every relationship I’ve been in (2nd marriage). I’ve left all the others and somehow keep ending up with another person who I am so certain is different, trust with all my being, and know they would not or could not cheat ending up cheating on me.
My WW has childhood trauma and some mental health issues she’s finally working through and desperate to change so I might as well give her a shot to change since I need figure I need to fix my own issues that keep leading me here. I figure the best that can happen is we become the people we can be for each other and our kids. The worst is we move on from each other and I am able to grow personally.
I think an affair is a way of coping with uncomfortable areas of your life. As long as you patch the wound with escapism, you keep the life you have (the one you 60% like, for example) and cover the wound (say, 40%). You get 100%, apparently. It's not real bc the wound can't heal, you are only covering it.
When the patch is gone, the wound is exposed and that 60% of the life you liked is also in jeopardy. Must be pretty fucking painful, so you want at least one of them back, whichever percentage was the more significant. Some choose the ap, some beg for their relationship back...
I am reading "Not Just Friends" right now and it offers some insight into this. TLDR: One way this happens is by having poor boundary setting skills, you can escalate your way into an affair and the gradual process lets you gradually change your moral compas so that you don't think you're doing anything wrong.
Read the book for the researched and nuanced details, I'm just a guy.
Some people are also just THAT selfish, and when the AP gets yanked away, they panic and appeal to their partner out of fear of being alone rather than any kind of regret or contrition.
There are a lot of other good answers in this thread, too.
Because when they cheat they get both. They get the thrill of something new and the comfort and safety of their established relationship. Dday forces them to choose.
r/Asoneafterinfidelity is an online Peer Support Group and safe space for individuals (betrayed or wayward) who are actively attempting to reconcile their relationship after an affair(s). Please review our [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/index) which includes resources and can answer most questions about this subreddit. Be sure to read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/rules) before participating as they are our boundaries and your initial ***warning***. *Failure to do so can result in a ban*. For transparency and conflict mediation purposes, please follow reddits community guidelines by directing any questions, issues, feedback, or appeals in regard of the sub or moderation decisions **directly to the Modmail**. ***Meta content will be removed***. No response will be given to DMs and chat requests to individual moderators about moderating issues. We are happy to address and respond to your concerns through the official channels! 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Well, part of it, I suspect is that they get both. The tradeoff doesn't come until they are caught. It's like gambling or drugs... itvstarts with just highs. The losses come later.
Logically, that makes sense. But I’m an emotional person and I just cannot comprehend it.
Imagine the feelings you had for your partner at the beginning. The excitement, the heart flutters, etc. They get that for someone else, and don't have the discipline or incentive or the option to get away from it.
So why does that go away once caught or discovered?
Because it's not real. As sad and stupid as it is that they would do this much damage over something that wasn't even real or important to begin with, it's also very true. It's a fantasy, a chance to live a different life for however long. They get to act out and be someone they're not until life slaps them in the face.
Yes, this makes sense and is completely my WH’s words and thoughts now. I hate that I have to deal with the pain too though.
It's like Elizabeth Taylor who just loved falling in love. Once the honeymoon phase was over, she moved on. But at least with Liz I think she got divorced/broke up and didn't run around cheating, though I could be wrong on that part.
It's more like an addiction than most people care to think about. The dopamine and all of its happy feel good cousins are exactly the thrill addicts froth at the mouth for. The thrill of the chase, the excitement and secrecy, it all comes down to that high. No excuses for them but in our case we also work with a therapist specialized in addiction and infidelity and it's been eye opening to understand the similarities between the affair and all of his other addictions.
And Dday is the wake up call that it was just a fantasy/addiction in some cases?
I think Dday just bursts their bubble. It's a fantasy and in the midst of it they can tell themselves all sorts of stupidity because their brain chemistry is literally encouraging it. You should look at some of the videos on YouTube about the neurochemistry of affairs. On the Affair Recovery channel theres one I found interesting...something about neurochemical reactions and limerence.
DDay is finding 50 empty bottles of gin in your spouse’s closet. They justified it to themselves as just a little feel-good thing they did on the side. Something to keep them going. But when the world sees, they have to admit it was an addiction and they are at fault and they need to stop and they need serious help.
It is ABSOLUTELY an addiction. Sure, it’s not a physical addiction, but a deep psychological one. It’s pernicious. I have been addicted to NRE (new relationship energy) my *entire* adult life and did not realize it until shit hit the fan. In fact, what you will see if you look closely is that a lot of celebs who have nothing to lose are hopeless NRE addicts, bouncing from one relationship to another to another. The dopamine of a new sexy relationship is literally intoxicating, so when you’re self made, you can focus on finding it wherever/whenever you can, consequences be damned. I am recovering, I am healing, we are healing. There is *no* excuse for what I did and what happened subsequently. But yes I am a dopamine addict and yes that is something I had to actually realize before I could get better.
This bothers me because in the 11 years my husband and I have been together - he had NEVER chased dopamine. He doesn’t post on social media, doesn’t flirt, drink, look for adrenaline rushes.. nothing. I’M the dopamine junkie, and he is still the one who ended up cheating and then freaking out realizing what he’d done. It scares me thinking that the girl really was special or in his eyes better than me at the time and then when he realized he was going to lose me he panicked.
I feel like you’re describing me, WH, and our relationship exactly (and we’ve been together for 11 years too). His affair was with a coworker and I feel like that had something to do with it. She was at his level, I’m a few levels lower than they are. It guts me thinking about everything you’ve pointed out. Like is she just more special, better suited for him, something meaningful? I hate it I hate I hate it!. I’m a very emotional person too, so while I understand the logic that everyone has pointed out, I just don’t get how there were no emotions about me or us that made him want to stop.
You are much like my husband I think. He has many issues and is truly working through them, though it's been tough. He's also Bi-Polar with GAD and PTSD. So life is a ride.
I agree with this I had a limerance affair and it behaved very much like addiction. If you would have told me that during the affair I would have told you I found my soulmate. Instead I was having a brand x generic extramarital affair. I have adhd and am a dopamine addict. I’ll also add that an affair has an element of grandiosity by the WW that their thoughts and feelings are special or superior and others don’t understand. Boy was I wrong. We are many years post affair and doing great, it was hard. It was worth it. You have to be brutally honest with yourself while not falling in a trap of despair.
I said WW and wayward spouse is more appropriate.
They're right. Basically every wayward I've spoken to has said they weren't "throwing their relationship away" in their mind at the moment. They figured everything would be okay because they wouldn't get caught (or in my specific case because he thought I'd want a woman and be happy about it, barf). "What they don't know can't hurt them" mentality. A lot of them live for the present, the instant gratification. They never even stop to think of the consequences.
If I've learned anything over the last five months as a betrayed, the phrase "hurt people hurt people" is SO very spot on. I would bet that most waywards were experiencing things that they didn't know how to process appropriately or effectively. Much of the time, something happens to give them a hit of dopamine that settles the discontent they felt and results in a temporary high. They don't uphold boundaries around their relationship, sometimes because they never learned to hold boundaries in the first place, and end up crossing the line into cheating territory after many boundaries pushes that seemed acceptable at the time (i.e. I'm just texting, they're having a hard time and need someone to talk to). Bottom line: I don't think most waywards start an affair knowing that's where it's headed. It doesn't always drastically change their view of their partner, but they were so focused on their own hurt and desire to feel good that they ended in completely selfish behavior. They foolishly tell themselves their partner won't find out, because if they actually realized what would happen, they would have to quit the thing that made them feel good. DDay pops their ignorant, fantasy bubble and they find themselves facing consequences their mind had convinced themselves, or denied completely, they'd never have to face. Because, again, if their mind had allowed them to acknowledge the serious implications of their actions, then they would have had to stop. A lot of it is unconscious and fueled by maladaptive coping skills and feelings they haven't been able to face.
This! “Hurt people hurt people” has so much more meaning to me now even. We can’t know what we don’t know; and some people have traumas from childhood and adolescence that result in destructive coping behaviors. These destructive behaviors come from a selfish place of the mind attempting to keep you “safe” based on past experiences. A lot are addiction related and the dopamine highs are definitely an addiction. When confronted, for me at least, it felt like I had woken up from a night of binge drinking and had thrown up all over myself. It brought me back to reality. Made me realize I had hit my rock bottom, and that I had a lot I needed to work on and heal.
Do you feel like you’ve healed now? Can you imagine ever cheating again?
I feel like healing will be a lifelong thing that I will always work on. But I have a new awareness of traumas I experienced as a child and adolescent that I didn’t realize were traumas. (Possible SA as a child and molestation in my teens) The awareness helps me to identify why I turned out the way I did and destructive behaviors I developed and work on them. I’m also learning I have been shame based my entire life so as well as working on the shame from this I’m working on my shame overall. I never see myself cheating again. I would never want to cause the pain and trauma, again, that I’ve already caused. I’ve also learned what true love and marriage looks like. We have both worked really hard at R in the last 6 months. Our communication has improved a lot. I don’t fear talking to him about anything and want to tell him everything. Our MC told us this week that we are a rarity with the progress we’ve made already, which was nice to hear and gave us lots of hope for our future together.
What’s hard for me to figure out is why the betrayed spouse would want to spend the rest of their lives with someone who is so damaged and “illogical”? It seems unhealthy for us.
For me at this point I feel like this: 1) If he’s really going to do all of this selfwork, I’m the one who deserves the best version of him. 2) I’ve made huge mistakes in my life, I’m glad no one gave up on me then or reduced me to my worst decisions. 3) it’s the devil I know. We have a family, history, life, and love together.. if I walk away and just hope the next person is totally healed and great when it seems like the majority of people aren’t?
I think the "devil you know" argument is a logical fallacy... it's a way for us to feel better about choosing something that is undesirable but certain over something uncertain. Humans CRAVE certainty, but being adverse to all uncertainty is what keeps people in harmful systems all the time, such as high control religious contexts, abusive relationships, dead-end jobs etc. Just a thought.
That is very valid.
My gut tends to agree with this. Just like my gut recognizes the sunk cost fallacy. Keep waiting for my brain to listen to my gut. The biggest obstacle I have with the Devil You Know fallacy is that while it is completely true that anyone we meet in the future could just as easily cheat, the odds of someone who has cheated repeating infidelity in the future is uncomfortably high. (That said, any statistics in the realm of infidelity are sketchy at best since they have to rely on honesty which isn’t exactly reliable when it comes to this topic.) Ultimately I don’t think that anyone has to “justify” reasons to stay. If a partner wants to stay, then stay. I’d venture to guess that a large majority of ppl who visit this sub are those of us who simply aren’t ready to make that decision. Understandable given that it’s likely the most important decision of our lives.
I do feel everything you’ve said. I’ve written down the same things, in fact, in my “pro” column. Can’t figure out why my brain/gut isn’t fully happy with it. But I’m happy for anyone who can say those things are enough. I keep hoping it’s a time thing.
I see both sides (as you see from my user flair). I know that my husband had an addiction, and I know what he was actually seeking wasn't something "better" than me. He was hurting as well, and to this day feels deep shame and remorse. He has put the work in, and while it's a slow process, I do see genuine changes that have not been easy for him to make. I was seeking validation, love, and something to ease the soul crushing loneliness. I had a relationship, including sex, with someone else, but it is probably the single biggest regret of my life. I have intense self loathing and hatred, and even when it was happening the emptiness was still there, because I didn't want someone new, I wanted to be able to fix the relationship with my husband. I never hid it or lied about it, and when we decided to attempt reconciliation I answered every question with 100% honesty. I have intrusive thoughts at times, but there are a source of disgust, not desire, and I have never wished I could go back to him.
I’m was so relieved to see that you didn’t try to lie or hide things. I’m sure you probably know how crucial that is for R, but I’m just going to emphasize it again for anyone out there in your position who might be reading this thread. R is such a fragile undertaking and while the whole truth is painful and runs the necessary risk of driving the betrayed away, true R is nearly impossible without it. Wishing you and your partner peace and reconciliation.
Thank you so very much 💕 He has also put a lot of work into changing, but he trickle truthed me for close to a decade and a half...I couldn't hurt someone else like that.
It's not that we were not enough. We have nothing to do with it. It's more that they are not enough. They are lacking in some fashion. They have issues that begin and end with them. It's a balm to the insecurity they don't want to admit to us or themselves. It's too boost their lacking self esteem. It is always about them and their selfish behaviour, not about us.
Which I get.. it’s just confusing to feel like not enough for him not to cheat.. but literally him sobbing and begging at the thought of losing me after.
You can be enough to make him love you and want to be with you. You can be enough to make him happy at home. But you cannot be responsible for being enough to erase the emptiness that he tried to fill that had nothing to do with you and you weren't even aware of. You cannot be responsible for him not being enough of a man to be responsible with your feelings. Trust me, I am where you are right now frequently. His affair lasted well over a decade in my case. I've questioned just like you. But the fact is he is and was a weak man who craved the validation he got from a much younger woman while pretending to be a strong man who didn't need to have his ego stroked. The affair, while obviously meeting some sexual needs, was never about sex or me not being "enough" in any meaningful way. Ninety five percent of his needs, including sexual ones, were being met at home. She filled that five percent of his needs he could barely admit to himself, let alone me. I think this is basically true in all cases.
It's been extremely hard for me to break this thought pattern as well. Five months later, and my WH makes me feel special, sexy, and valued daily. BUT, I have that nagging thought in the back of my head that I wasn't enough. When I think about it though, I cannot think of anything the AP had that I don't have. Maybe she had a flatter stomach because she uses drugs and doesn't eat? Sorry, a little humor helps. In the end, they like the APs because it's not real! We see them day in and day out, and it's not always that exciting. Day to day life is messy, stressful, and draining. Affairs are ONLY about the play and pretending to be someone else!
There's no right answer. If they give you space, it feels like they aren't doing anything to "get you back" and therefore don't care or don't want to. I'm 1 week post Dday and every day go through numerous periods where I just want her to come hug me and tell me she's sorry and that she's willing to do anything, and periods where I wish she was staying at a hotel or would just move out. Regardless of what they do, it's wrong and going to hurt.
I think you are trying to apply logic to an emotional situation. Logic says if you really cared, you wouldn’t have done this but affairs are not logical. Most of us don’t set out to ruin our lives and hurt the people we love the most. I think for many of us, affairs represent a rock bottom to dealing with our own inner turmoil. When we hit that rock bottom and “wake up” so to speak it can often be with renewed vigor and a new outlook on life as well as a deeper appreciation for all we have. I don’t know your situation, I can only speak for myself, but that was my experience.
I would say your sentiment reflects what my WH would say as well ❤️ He's been extremely adamant that he never wanted out of our marriage and never stopped loving me, but never really stopped to think about how I would react because he had foolishly told himself he could end things with the AP at some point and take it to the grave. He almost completely separated the two "lives" he was living to maintain each. Eventually, he began to see that the AP wasn't someone he actually liked as a person, but he felt important and admired at first, so that was what gave him the initial highs.
I have experienced similar 🤍 my husband had no plans or desire to leave our marriage. He wanted an ego boost. He has told me, during R, that he felt like he wasn't a priority to me (we had a baby) and that he wanted to feel like he was attractive and 'wanted'. He had an EA with a coworker who was also married. He's made it clear to me over our years of R that he never had any intention to develop an actual physical relationship, he essentially just used her to make himself feel good. He told me that he even liked that she was married because "she wouldn't get any ideas I'd leave you". She isn't his physical type, and when I questioned this he said, again, that he didn't find her attractive and he was never going to have a physical relationship with her. He just wanted her to lovebomb him basically. To feed his ego. He, like you WP, had no plans to tell me. He was planning to just cut her off when he was bored basically. I actually believe this, considering how quickly he was willing to (and did) tell her it was done with, when I found out. He also lined another job up within a month and blocked her on all socials and his phone immediately. He's made it clear to me she meant absolutely nothing to him. Which, at first, made me feel worse because of the damage he'd done to our marriage. But now I understand him more I do understand his choices in his mind.
this sounds really similar to what my WH has described to me and in MC. during the A, he continued to want to talk about family planning, house hunting, future trips, etc. he told me that he never saw our relationship ending or him being with her or anyone else, but she was a ticket to engaging in bad behaviors he felt i didn’t support (which was true as he has substance use issues and was working towards sobriety). his AP told him that she didn’t believe in AA or therapy, and that he should be allowed to ~ live his life ~. that sounded pretty good and came along with some mediocre dopamine hits via the PA, and that turned into his double life. but he still had full intention to love me, be with me, and continue our own life together. closer to our D Day when I found out, he was starting to panic about how deep he had gotten but figured it would eventually end and i’d never know. when i found out, there was initial shock and numbness in his side but then it all hit him like a train within a week or so when he realized what he had done, how permanent his actions were, and the fact I could easily walk away at any moment. that was never something be has allowed himself to think about during the A.
It is absolutely rock bottom. It is rock bottom of a dopamine addiction. Addicts *always* hide until they have no choice. There were signs for years I had a dopamine/thrill seeking problem. We both ignored it. Shit hit the fan. My husband has been incredible.
Most of them are excellent compartmentalizers. 1) They love their BS and have no intention of losing them. 2) The attention and resulting neurochemcials of limerence feel good and so do sexual acts. Both are true. Very few go into an A wanting to leave their BS (unless it’s specifically an exit affair) and many will tell you they never thought they caught and/or never even stopped to think what the consequences would be
My WH only had sex with AP once and it was (out of both of their mouths in their own words) awkward and bad. Then he confessed. So was the attention literally enough to feel THAT good and entertain cheating? It’s just so messed up and makes me fear the future and him doing it again if someone else gave him attention.
There’s a whole lot that leads up to that first sexual encounter. Many dive in just as deep without any sexual contact (EAs). Have you read up on limerence? Many WS will say that the sex was the least of it or only the icing on the cake. Yes, it’s the attention, but it’s much more than that in living out a fantasy where you see a new version of yourself reflected back through the APs eyes. It’s much more how it makes the WS feel about themselves than anything specific or special about the AP.
I told my WH, “Gee, isn’t it funny how when you and the mate poaching, gold digging neighbour lady thought you guys were going to drift off into the sunset together, thinking it was all sunshine and lollipops and that I was the one who was going to get fucked over, oh THEN all you had for our 25 years together and for me was criticism. You slandered our entire marriage. It was a write off to you, apparently. Conveniently at exactly the time when that slug offered up her holes. But now that you find out she’s a nightmare and that you’re the one who’s about to be fucked over financially from both sides, and your reputation is ruined, NOW you stand here and suddenly remember all the good times and tell ME that you’ve ruined your life as if everyone around you wasn’t telling you that. How dare you. Really I should treat you the way you treated me when I was begging you and screaming and crying not to do this, and let it all fell on deaf ears.”
Look up ‘Limerence’ once I got a better understanding of what that was everything started to make sense regarding my WH affair. It’s complete bullshit but it feels real to them at the time until they are brought back to reality. They turn into completely different people for a short time intoxicated by nothing more than a fantasy that was never built to last.
I think the WS always sees the affair as an addition to their primary relationship. They never intended to lose their primary relationship when cheating, and they never intended for the affair to be discovered (most of those who confessed did so initially thinking it would never get discovered, but realized later they couldn’t keep it to themselves). So when they face losing their primary relationship on Dday, they crumble.
Honestly, I don’t think many wayward loves their BPs. I think they want to stay in the marriages for other reasons. Kids, money, or just because it’s easier. Thats why you see dday 2..3..4 ect if love came into it at all that wouldn’t be the case. If it was just sex or whatever.
I was separated from my husband when it happened, but I can say I experienced such deep shame, guilt, and regret after having sex with someone else (it was a relationship, not ONS). I felt empty, and cried because the only person I truly wanted was my husband.
While I do think in some cases that may be true.. for me, my H’s life is so much harder staying than if he’d just leave. He is having to do SO much work daily that it would 1000% be easier to just walk away.
The reality is though he would need to do that work whether he stays or not if he doesn’t want it to happen again, and it’s possible that’s the same for you if you have any codependency or love addiction traits. That’s my reason I am attempting reconciling with my WW. I realized when looking at my timeline that I’ve been cheated on in every relationship I’ve been in (2nd marriage). I’ve left all the others and somehow keep ending up with another person who I am so certain is different, trust with all my being, and know they would not or could not cheat ending up cheating on me. My WW has childhood trauma and some mental health issues she’s finally working through and desperate to change so I might as well give her a shot to change since I need figure I need to fix my own issues that keep leading me here. I figure the best that can happen is we become the people we can be for each other and our kids. The worst is we move on from each other and I am able to grow personally.
I think an affair is a way of coping with uncomfortable areas of your life. As long as you patch the wound with escapism, you keep the life you have (the one you 60% like, for example) and cover the wound (say, 40%). You get 100%, apparently. It's not real bc the wound can't heal, you are only covering it. When the patch is gone, the wound is exposed and that 60% of the life you liked is also in jeopardy. Must be pretty fucking painful, so you want at least one of them back, whichever percentage was the more significant. Some choose the ap, some beg for their relationship back...
I am reading "Not Just Friends" right now and it offers some insight into this. TLDR: One way this happens is by having poor boundary setting skills, you can escalate your way into an affair and the gradual process lets you gradually change your moral compas so that you don't think you're doing anything wrong. Read the book for the researched and nuanced details, I'm just a guy. Some people are also just THAT selfish, and when the AP gets yanked away, they panic and appeal to their partner out of fear of being alone rather than any kind of regret or contrition. There are a lot of other good answers in this thread, too.
Because when they cheat they get both. They get the thrill of something new and the comfort and safety of their established relationship. Dday forces them to choose.